The Endless Pain Of Emotionally Mature Partners - Mercedes Coffman

1. 0:00 – 1:55

   How Avoidant Culture is Rewriting Relationships

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      I've heard you say that avoidant culture is changing relationship expectations.

   2. MCMercedes Coffman0:05

      Yes.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:05

      How so?

   4. MCMercedes Coffman0:06

      Well, there's a couple of different reasons. I mean, I think avoidance culture is making people have to minimize themselves because we're interconnected human beings. We need to be connected to other beings, right? It regulates our nervous system, it makes us feel good, it stabilizes us. And so nowadays, with everything being expedited, we live in an era of immediacy, and everything is geared towards reinforcing avoidance versus intimacy. Everything is about instant gratification, getting results right away. And so people, especially emotionally available people, which is who I largely work with as far as my clientele, they're noticing that they're lowering their standards in order to keep a relationship. And so the only way that now people see an opportunity for a relationship or maintaining a relationship is by changing their standards. Otherwise, they feel like there's no hope left.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:04

      Hmm.

   6. MCMercedes Coffman1:04

      Because especially in dating apps, everything is about convenience and speed, about disposability, and nobody really wants to take the time to have gradual development.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:15

      Is that avoidant culture?

   8. MCMercedes Coffman1:16

      Yes.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:17

      Is that how you would define avoidant culture?

   10. MCMercedes Coffman1:19

       Yes. So avoidant culture is really just avoiding anything that's inconveniencing or anything that causes discomfort, meaning anything that takes too much time, anything that requires too much effort, anything that requires consistency or follow-through, that would basically fall into avoidant culture.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:36

       Mm-hmm.

   12. MCMercedes Coffman1:36

       And nowadays, especially on most of the dating apps, they're designed for that. They're designed for rewarding avoidance because it's all about novelty, it's about dopamine, it's about new matches every single day, and nobody really spends the time to emotionally invest in one particular relationship anymore.

2. 1:55 – 4:20

   Does Modern Dating Punish Emotionally Availability?

   1. CWChris Williamson1:55

      How does being with someone avoidant psychologically transform you?

   2. MCMercedes Coffman2:00

      Well, there's several different ways. It's terrible for the nervous system, first, because an avoidant person, although, for example, an emotionally unavailable person who largely is avoidant, they don't just present themselves as emotionally unavailable. They usually present themselves with intensity, with love bombing, and so you get pulled into that dynamic pretty quickly, even if you're an emotionally available person. And so now you're getting attached to an emotionally unavailable person, but once you start requiring effort and consistency and substance of the relationship, a lot of these people tend to reveal their true selves, which is a lack of capacity. They cannot sustain relationship responsibilities. And so your nervous system has this, you know, it starts to get attached, and then it slowly starts to have to withdraw, which is kind of like this dopamine spike of excitement. But then there's a crash because this emotionally unavailable person pulls away. They become more and more avoidant, and what tends to happen is you're now dealing with micro-grief. You're now wondering what happened, and your nervous system now is spiking in cortisol, which is your stress hormones. And so a lot of the times, this changes people because they are experiencing fatigue, mood disorders, uh, sleep disturbances, appetite disorders. So I think that avoidance in general and emotional unavailability is changing people's nervous system, and it is much more harmful than we think it actually is.

   3. CWChris Williamson3:30

      Hmm. In that way, does modern dating punish emotionally available people?

   4. MCMercedes Coffman3:35

      Yes. Yes, and it doesn't-- it's not that modern dating apps are designed to punish emotionally available people. It's that it is reinforcing emotional unavailability.

   5. CWChris Williamson3:46

      Mm-hmm.

   6. MCMercedes Coffman3:46

      So the people who are emotionally unavailable have a much better time on dating apps than the emotionally available people.

   7. CWChris Williamson3:52

      Why?

   8. MCMercedes Coffman3:52

      Because emotionally unavailable people are looking for dopamine. They're looking for comfort. They do not want to put in a lot of effort in a relationship. They d- they do not have the capacity to put a lot of effort into it. Whereas emotionally available people are looking for consistency and follow-through and to focus on one person at a time. And dating apps and swipe culture is all about the dopamine of more and more and more. And the more options we have, the less invested we are in those options.

3. 4:20 – 8:51

   What Makes Emotionally Available People Vulnerable?

   1. CWChris Williamson4:20

      Why are emotionally available people particularly vulnerable? What is it about them that makes them on the receiving end of this?

   2. MCMercedes Coffman4:29

      Because emotionally available people are looking for depth, and there is very little of that in modern dating or modern day in general. Everybody is looking for quick results, and nobody's really looking to invest in things that causes discomfort or inconvenience. So emotionally available people, they want something of substance. They want a relationship that will go the, the whole way. They want the slow burn. They want gradual development. Yet what happens is they get pulled in by an emotionally unavailable person, and then contact slowly starts to decrease, and eventually ghosting starts to occur, which is detrimental to the nervous system. And then a lot of emotionally unav- emotionally available people deal with these crashes where they just do not trust themselves anymore, and they don't trust the dating sites or dating in general. And so that's why I think there's this loneliness that we're seeing in modern day now, because emotionally available people don't trust it.

   3. CWChris Williamson5:28

      Hmm.

   4. MCMercedes Coffman5:29

      And emotionally unavailable people don't sustain any particular connection.

   5. CWChris Williamson5:34

      Presumably then, if emotionally available people leave the dating pool or become damaged and become emotionally unavailable or closed off, that's bad for everyone. It's kind of like a race to the bottom-

   6. MCMercedes Coffman5:46

      Mm-hmm

   7. CWChris Williamson5:46

      ... where the few emotionally unavailable people-- uh, the very few emotionally unavailable people become emotionally available by dating someone who's emotionally available.

   8. MCMercedes Coffman5:57

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson5:58

      But way more available people drop out or become hurt by it. So it's kind of this entropy in the system where the people who are prepared to be open say, "This is what I want."The likelihood of them becoming damaged, it's a one-way street

   10. MCMercedes Coffman6:13

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

   11. CWChris Williamson6:14

       Rarely do people that are broken get fixed-

   12. MCMercedes Coffman6:16

       Mm-hmm

   13. CWChris Williamson6:16

       ... but people that are already fixed become broken

   14. MCMercedes Coffman6:18

       Yes, sadly. And it doesn't mean that there aren't emotionally available people in the world or into dating. I, I'm, I work with lots of emotionally available clients, males and females. The issue is, is that they're not easy to find, right? And nowadays we're looking for what's easy to find, what's convenient, right? If you look at everything is expedited. We wanna find somebody on a dating app. We don't go out to meet people anymore. We don't really have, uh, social groups and social circles or community events. And so a lot of us and a lot of people are relying on dating apps to find a match and to find someone who's compatible. The issue with that is, is that that is built for speed, and so emotionally available people do not have a community where they can go and say, "Oh, these are other emotionally available people who wanna go the distance, who wanna just focus on me, and don't have 5 or 15 other matches in their app."

   15. CWChris Williamson7:17

       Wouldn't it be good if there was, uh, some sort of psychometric evaluation that people had to go through, or you had to keep some sort of running CV, like a Trustpilot score? If you're gonna have a Trustpilot sc- you've got emo- emotional availability score out of five.

   16. MCMercedes Coffman7:29

       Yep

   17. CWChris Williamson7:29

       And if you manage to stay above a four, you get to be on the app, and if not, you have to go away and build up your Uber rating back to above a four-

   18. MCMercedes Coffman7:37

       Yeah

   19. CWChris Williamson7:37

       ... and then you can come back in

   20. MCMercedes Coffman7:38

       I am working on a dating app-

   21. CWChris Williamson7:40

       Okay

   22. MCMercedes Coffman7:40

       ... for emotionally available people because I've noticed how discouraging it is and how most of my emotionally available clients are just not interested in dating anymore. And they, they are completely fatigued and discouraged. And, you know, whenever you slide too much in one direction, it's not good for your health, right? So, um, emotionally available people now are not dating at all, a lot of them.

   23. CWChris Williamson8:05

       Hmm.

   24. MCMercedes Coffman8:06

       And chronic loneliness is just as unhealthy for the nervous system as dating or being in situationships because neither one of them are really tending to your needs. So what's happening is emotionally available people, although they have the right intentions, being lonely right now and having that chronic loneliness is just as detrimental to their health.

   25. CWChris Williamson8:26

       Hmm.

   26. MCMercedes Coffman8:27

       And so we need to figure something out and design a system where they can meet partners who are held accountable, 'cause there's no accountability in the dating apps nowadays. There is low effort because there are so many options, which means there's more disposability. And so if we have a place where these emotionally available people could go and be seen and don't feel so disposable, I think that they'll believe in love again.

4. 8:51 – 12:00

   How to Spot Emotional Availability

   1. CWChris Williamson8:52

      How can you work out whether or not someone is or is not emotionally available?

   2. MCMercedes Coffman8:57

      There are some signs that you could detect in early dating. So one of the ways is, I think, delaying gratification. So if you meet someone and you're on a date with a person, watch for patterns instead of potential. So don't just rely on the intensity or the chemistry that you might immediately feel with the person, but notice how they react when there is no physical reward at the end of the night. Know how they are with the waiter if the food is a little too late. What's their patience like, right? So you could assess for their capacity. And once you see that this person could manage their emotions, this person could talk about intentions, they could deal with feedback without withdrawing or avoiding, th- th- those are some of the quick ways that I tell clients to assess for emotional availability and capacity in early dating.

   3. CWChris Williamson9:48

      Hmm. It's interesting you said, used the word standards earlier on.

   4. MCMercedes Coffman9:52

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson9:52

      People have to sort of lower their standards, and I think when you first hear that, it sounds like something to do with physical standards, height, income, age, but what you're talking about here is emotional standards. And this is a-- it's a weird thing to talk about. I guess the prevalence of therapy culture in a good way, the good side of therapy culture, has made people realize, well, ultimately, someone's looks are a depreciating asset, but their mind is an appreciating asset, and my relationship is basically one long conversation. It's one long shared nervous system.

   6. MCMercedes Coffman10:26

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson10:27

      And then we'll add some other beings in maybe to this nervous system, and if theirs is fucked, uh, it is making my job significantly harder.

   8. MCMercedes Coffman10:36

      Yes.

   9. CWChris Williamson10:36

      Uh, so yeah, when it comes to emotional standards, I guess we could call it-

   10. MCMercedes Coffman10:42

       Yeah

   11. CWChris Williamson10:43

       ... it's just a, it's an interesting, it's an interesting element that I don't think that people were necessarily thinking about before, maybe because it was less important. You know, our parents' generation weren't thinking about relating in quite the same way.

   12. MCMercedes Coffman10:58

       No, and I agree with you. I think nowadays we have to assess for different things, and a lot of the dating apps now, you know, I've done my research that a lot of them, if you look at a profile, most of the things that they advertise on a profile, if you were to go on there and look at someone's profile, it'll talk about the person's age, the things they enjoy doing. But it doesn't talk about what's their conflict repair, what's their love language, what's their emotional availability, what's their emotional capacity, what's their emotional maturity. It doesn't assess for any of those things. And so what happens is people are bonding over surface-level things.

   13. CWChris Williamson11:35

       Hmm.

   14. MCMercedes Coffman11:36

       "Oh, we went to the same school. We live in the same town. You like the same food I like," you know, or physical attraction, but it's not really assessing any compatibility regarding relationship values, and I think that's where a lot of people are getting attached to the wrong people. Because it's a misalignment because we're not really doing the assessment on relationship values before attaching to a person

5. 12:00 – 13:33

   What Does a Perfect Match Really Look Like?

   1. MCMercedes Coffman12:00

      that we meet.

   2. CWChris Williamson12:01

      What does true alignment look like? Let's say that you were going to give the gold standard for someone to try and work out whether them and this person are a good match-

   3. MCMercedes Coffman12:09

      Yes

   4. CWChris Williamson12:09

      ... emotionally. What does that look like?What matters, what doesn't matter?

   5. MCMercedes Coffman12:13

      Emotional availability is the first. Are they willing to be invested in this relationship? Meaning, do they have good work-life balance? Do they have time for a relationship? Someone could be interested in you, they could be emotionally intelligent, they could have emotional capacity, they could be emotionally mature. But if they do not have time for a relationship, it doesn't matter. You will not be aligned with that person if you're emotionally available.

   6. CWChris Williamson12:37

      Mm-hmm.

   7. MCMercedes Coffman12:37

      So the willingness to have time, to invest time in a relationship is the first thing I would tell people to assess for. The second is capacity. Can they hold their own emotions and your emotions as well? Meaning, can they deal with discomfort without retreating, without withdrawing, without avoiding, right? So whenever a conversation gets uncomfortable, whenever it's a conversation about growth or intentions, can they sit through those feelings in that conversation without avoiding or getting defensive? And then emotional maturity, I would say, is third on the list. How emotionally mature is this person? That's about can they manage rejection? Do they get aggressive? Do they get reactive or can they remain responsive? And you could detect that early on in conversation as well.

   8. CWChris Williamson13:26

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   9. MCMercedes Coffman13:26

      So that would be the gold standard, an emotionally available, high capacity, emotionally mature person.

   10. CWChris Williamson13:31

       Mm-hmm.

6. 13:33 – 16:39

   What Blocks True Alignment?

   1. CWChris Williamson13:33

      That doesn't seem to me to be much about compatibility.

   2. MCMercedes Coffman13:37

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson13:38

      More so just these are some green flags from an emotional standpoint.

   4. MCMercedes Coffman13:42

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson13:44

      Is there something to say about why two people who fit all of those criteria-

   6. MCMercedes Coffman13:49

      Mm-hmm

   7. CWChris Williamson13:50

      ... might not... I mean, there's a million reasons, right?

   8. MCMercedes Coffman13:52

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson13:52

      Like physical attractiveness, age-

   10. MCMercedes Coffman13:53

       Mm-hmm

   11. CWChris Williamson13:54

       ... life direction, all the rest of it. But again, from an emotional, you used love language-

   12. MCMercedes Coffman13:58

       Mm-hmm

   13. CWChris Williamson13:59

       ... uh, uh, attachment style, stuff like that.

   14. MCMercedes Coffman14:01

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson14:02

       Uh, what are the next levels of, uh, how does this meal come together from the ingredients? How can some meals that have great ingredients-

   16. MCMercedes Coffman14:10

       Mm-hmm

   17. CWChris Williamson14:10

       ... not work when they're put into a dish?

   18. MCMercedes Coffman14:12

       Yeah. So I think that some of the things that will s- if you have all those things aligned, and we both have those qualities and those relationship values, some of the things that would hinder that would be unresolved stuff. So unres- resolved stuff in me, unresolved stuff in you. If that's worked out and all the surface level things as far as chemistry and physical attraction is intact, the relationship has a really good shot, right? But I think that we're not attaching based on that. We're attaching based on chemistry and intensity first.

   19. CWChris Williamson14:48

       Hmm.

   20. MCMercedes Coffman14:49

       And I think it's backwards because there's a lot of broken hearts because people attach to the wrong things first.

   21. CWChris Williamson14:55

       Hmm.

   22. MCMercedes Coffman14:57

       And, and we can't blame the world because everything is about speed. It's about, "Hey, are we a match or are we not? I don't wanna waste my time."

   23. CWChris Williamson15:06

       Mm-hmm.

   24. MCMercedes Coffman15:06

       Right? And so we have this thing of time is of the essence, and so you mentioned earlier generations. Yeah, I think back in the day, the difference is, is that social circles were more connected back in the days, and they were more interconnected, they were smaller, which means there was more accountability. There's much less accountability nowadays in dating, which means that people could just ghost with a tap on their phone.

   25. CWChris Williamson15:30

       Bad, bad behavior doesn't go punished. A quick aside, most people think that they're dehydrated because they don't drink enough water. Turns out water alone isn't just the problem, it's also what's missing from it, which is why for the last five years, I've started every single morning with a cold glass of LMNT in water. LMNT is an electrolyte drink with a science-backed ratio of sodium, potassium, and magnesium. No sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, just the stuff that your body actually needs to function. This plays a critical role in reducing your muscle cramps and your fatigue. It optimizes your brain health, it regulates your appetite, and it helps curb cravings. I keep talking about it because I genuinely feel a difference when I use it versus when I don't. And best of all, there's a no questions asked refund policy with an unlimited duration. So if you're on the fence, you can buy it and try it for as long as you like. And if you don't like it for any reason, they just give you your money back. You don't even need to return the box. That's how confident they are that you'll love it. And they offer free shipping in the US. Right now, you can get a free sample pack of LMNT's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinkLMNT.com/modernwisdom. That's drinkLMNT.com/modernwisdom.

7. 16:39 – 25:28

   Are We Too Obsessed With Love?

   1. CWChris Williamson16:39

      One thing, I, I agree that there is a transactional high speed element to dating-

   2. MCMercedes Coffman16:48

      Mm-hmm

   3. CWChris Williamson16:48

      ... at the moment. That being said, the whole reason that the sort of two modes of attachment that humans have, moving from passionate to companionate love-

   4. MCMercedes Coffman16:59

      Mm-hmm

   5. CWChris Williamson17:00

      ... um, you know, honeymoon phase to long-term commitment-

   6. MCMercedes Coffman17:04

      Mm-hmm

   7. CWChris Williamson17:04

      ... typically between six, if you're unlucky, and, you know, a long time. Like, some people say that they're in passionate attachment for the rest of their life.

   8. MCMercedes Coffman17:12

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson17:12

      Uh, I'm not sure if that would actually be very useful. But the reason that the system works like that is kind of to con you into seeing this person with rose-colored glasses. There's a l- a period of time where you're completely obsessed with them.

   10. MCMercedes Coffman17:27

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson17:27

       You think that the shun- sun shines out of every different hole that they have.

   12. MCMercedes Coffman17:31

       [laughs]

   13. CWChris Williamson17:31

       And your, your goal is to put a baby into them. And then by the time that that's happened-

   14. MCMercedes Coffman17:37

       Mm-hmm

   15. CWChris Williamson17:38

       ... it's too late for you to, "Actually, I, I don't know if we-

   16. MCMercedes Coffman17:44

       I like you

   17. CWChris Williamson17:44

       ... if we fit all that well." So I get it. Um, the reason I say that is people who are thoughtful and reflective, I think a lot of the time blame themselves.

   18. MCMercedes Coffman17:55

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson17:55

       "I should have seen the red flags earlier. How did I not think..." A few million years of evolution conspired to convince you that this was your person. That is the way that the human attachment system works.

   20. MCMercedes Coffman18:11

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson18:11

       Like, this is your soulmate.

   22. MCMercedes Coffman18:14

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CWChris Williamson18:14

       This is everything.

   24. MCMercedes Coffman18:15

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson18:16

       And only after a while does sort of [gasps] The veil gets revealed. You poke your head above the water of this hormonal fever dream that you've been in.

   26. MCMercedes Coffman18:24

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   27. CWChris Williamson18:25

       And I think people blame themselves a lot for that. And I mean, sure, should you learn lessons from it? Yeah, probably.

   28. MCMercedes Coffman18:31

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CWChris Williamson18:31

       But whipping yourself into submission and saying, "I should have known better."

   30. MCMercedes Coffman18:36

       It's not good.
8. 25:28 – 34:23

   Why Discernment is the Ultimate Relationship Skill

   1. CWChris Williamson25:29

      Discernment is basically a kind of proactive healthcare for yourself-

   2. MCMercedes Coffman25:34

      Mm-hmm

   3. CWChris Williamson25:34

      ... in that way.

   4. MCMercedes Coffman25:35

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson25:36

      If you are unable to work out who is good for your life and who is bad for your life-

   6. MCMercedes Coffman25:43

      Mm

   7. CWChris Williamson25:43

      ... you are condemning a future version of you to damage.

   8. MCMercedes Coffman25:52

      Absolutely. D- and discernment, I think a lot of times people feel as though that should also mean being understanding of other people's limitations. And two things could be true at the same time. I could be understanding of people's limitations and still know what I need-

   9. CWChris Williamson26:09

      Mm

   10. MCMercedes Coffman26:09

       ... and still advocate for what I need, right? So if I am looking for a particular type of relationship, no matter how much I understand your limitations, it's just not compatible.

   11. CWChris Williamson26:21

       It's still not your obligation to accept them.

   12. MCMercedes Coffman26:23

       Exactly. And a lot of people have a hard time with that because they really want that person. A lot of times people will tell me that they are attracted to a person and they go, "But Mercedes, he's such a good person," or, "She's such a beautiful person." And I'm like, "I know, but they're not your beautiful person."

   13. CWChris Williamson26:39

       Mm-hmm.

   14. MCMercedes Coffman26:40

       You know, they could be great in every other area of life, but they're just not emotionally available enough for what you want.

   15. CWChris Williamson26:46

       I'm gonna draw a parallel here between Kanye West and beautiful people in dating.

   16. MCMercedes Coffman26:50

       [laughs]

   17. CWChris Williamson26:50

       You weren't expecting that. Um. You know, Ye just sold out, uh, SoFi Stadium two nights out of three-

   18. MCMercedes Coffman26:58

       Mm-hmm

   19. CWChris Williamson26:58

       ... uh, a couple of weeks ago in LA. Look, he's not exactly showered himself in glory over the last few years.

   20. MCMercedes Coffman27:05

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson27:08

       He's got bangers, and because he's got bangers, people are just gonna turn up, and I think that music is a unique area of psychological hacking, that it's really hard to not like a song that slaps, regardless of how much you hate the person that made it.

   22. MCMercedes Coffman27:27

       Absolutely.

   23. CWChris Williamson27:27

       It's much easier to say, "That person's comedy set I didn't enjoy. That person's podcast, that, that talk that they gave." Like, ah, that's actually not that... You know? But for some reason, music is so penetrating and it's so, um, like, emotionally charged.

   24. MCMercedes Coffman27:43

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson27:43

       You just can't do that.

   26. MCMercedes Coffman27:44

       Mm-hmm.

   27. CWChris Williamson27:44

       Right? It's real hard to do that with music.

   28. MCMercedes Coffman27:46

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CWChris Williamson27:46

       And I think that beauty is one of those other things. It's, this person is a fucking asshole. They, all they do is make my life worse. They ruin my sleep. They hurt me. I, I, I'm, I'm permanently on edge. F- so beautiful. And y- that is this weird reality distortion field. I mean, I, I think about this to do with, you know, beautiful women, really beautiful women. It must be so, like, disconcerting for them to move through the world, 'cause they basically have this weird sphere that sort of follows them around, and a room is completely normal, functioning as it's supposed to.

   30. MCMercedes Coffman28:25

       Mm-hmm.
9. 34:23 – 37:02

   How Do Rom-Coms Distort Our Love Lives

   1. CWChris Williamson34:23

      at checkout. Talking about sort of modern media culture and stuff, what do you make of the influence that romance movies have had on the sort of men that women choose? 'Cause I'm gonna guess the vast majority of the consumers of these sort of romantic movies are going to be women.

   2. MCMercedes Coffman34:42

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson34:42

      And if you look at some of the archetypes, uh, Titanic, The Notebook, I don't know. I'm, uh, I'm not sure if women would choose that for their friends or for their daughters.

   4. MCMercedes Coffman34:57

      Yeah, so [sighs] Notebook is pretty good. I think we would choose him.

   5. CWChris Williamson35:02

      You would... So question on that, which is an interesting one. She says no to the guy that's a decorated war veteran-

   6. MCMercedes Coffman35:10

      Yeah

   7. CWChris Williamson35:10

      ... who is a accountant and lawyer-

   8. MCMercedes Coffman35:12

      Mm-hmm

   9. CWChris Williamson35:13

      ... but chooses the guy that's kind of emotionally up and down. Now, it ends up working out great.

   10. MCMercedes Coffman35:19

       Right.

   11. CWChris Williamson35:20

       Uh, and Titanic obviously ends the way that it does.

   12. MCMercedes Coffman35:23

       Yeah. [laughs]

   13. CWChris Williamson35:24

       Uh, [laughs] I don't know. I just think it's, whatever the subtext is of that, that stable is boring, that, uh, regulated-

   14. MCMercedes Coffman35:33

       Mm-hmm

   15. CWChris Williamson35:33

       ... uh, means no spark-

   16. MCMercedes Coffman35:35

       Mm-hmm

   17. CWChris Williamson35:35

       ... that what you actually want is something closer to a rollercoaster.

   18. MCMercedes Coffman35:38

       Intense. Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson35:38

       You need to fix him.

   20. MCMercedes Coffman35:39

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson35:39

       Uh, somebody who isn't there but makes you feel. Uh, is that not the exact recipe-

   22. MCMercedes Coffman35:46

       Absolutely

   23. CWChris Williamson35:46

       ... that you're worried about?

   24. MCMercedes Coffman35:47

       For disaster, absolutely.

   25. CWChris Williamson35:48

       You were finessed by The Notebook.

   26. MCMercedes Coffman35:49

       Yes, I was finessed by it.

   27. CWChris Williamson35:51

       [laughs]

   28. MCMercedes Coffman35:51

       But the thing is this, is that, you know, I think that because... And women say this all the time. We wanted both of the guys from The Notebook to be put in a blender and become our ideal guy.

   29. CWChris Williamson36:04

       Hmm.

   30. MCMercedes Coffman36:04

       It just, he just doesn't exist, just like that perfect woman doesn't exist, right? And so I think that we are seeing more and more, you know, what media did to women as far as what women started looking for is what dating apps do for men.Social media do for men, OnlyFans do for men, right? It's that idea of what a typical woman sh- they don't all look like that, right? But it's the same thing as with movies, romantic movies or rom-coms. Women want that emotional intensity, the guy that will sing her a song and write her poetry and go deeper with her because they're looking for depth.
10. 37:02 – 39:55

    Romantasy: Escapism or Soft-Core Porn?

    1. CWChris Williamson37:03

       There's a trend of romantasy at the moment.

    2. MCMercedes Coffman37:06

       Mm.

    3. CWChris Williamson37:06

       You know romantasy?

    4. MCMercedes Coffman37:07

       Mm-mm.

    5. CWChris Williamson37:07

       Romantasy is cultural appropriation of women of the longstanding male literary genre of fantasy. So it's turned something about orcs and warlocks and, uh, it, it's written for autists like me that like to read it in their bedroom.

    6. MCMercedes Coffman37:21

       Mm-hmm.

    7. CWChris Williamson37:22

       Uh, and it's made it into soft-core porn. And there's a, a trend on the internet at the moment of talking about the standards that are set for women in, uh, both fiction and in porn.

    8. MCMercedes Coffman37:33

       Mm-hmm.

    9. CWChris Williamson37:33

       And guys have decided to use that to kind of highlight what they're seeing when it comes to literature as well.

    10. MCMercedes Coffman37:41

        Oh. The mother's dead by in water. Wife's dead with balloons. Father's dead. The father's dead.

    11. SPSpeaker37:46

        I like the idea for this video. Now I'm gonna do one with books. He's got a big thing. He's got a big thing.

    12. MCMercedes Coffman37:53

        [laughs]

    13. SPSpeaker37:53

        He's got a big thing and something in his eye.

    14. CWChris Williamson37:55

        [laughs]

    15. SPSpeaker37:55

        He's got a big thing, but he's an asshole. He's got a big thing, and he's a stalker.

    16. MCMercedes Coffman37:58

        [laughs]

    17. SPSpeaker37:58

        He's got big fingers. He's got a big thing with wings. He's got a big thing with dragons. He's got a big thing and likes to murder people. They all have big things, but you never see them.

    18. CWChris Williamson38:07

        [laughs]

    19. MCMercedes Coffman38:09

        [laughs] Oh, my God.

    20. CWChris Williamson38:10

        Yeah, I think it's so good. And there's an endless number of those video- that dude's just, like, run it back over and over. The official Steven Walker fucking crushing it there.

    21. MCMercedes Coffman38:18

        Oh, my God.

    22. CWChris Williamson38:19

        Yeah. Um, but yeah, look, I, I think the opportunity for, uh, people's desires to be turned up to 11 has happened with porn, video games, but it's also happening emotionally, and that's really, uh, if you're doing it through a book-

    23. MCMercedes Coffman38:32

        Mm-hmm

    24. CWChris Williamson38:32

        ... you're so involved, right? You're, you're creating these situations, these environments yourself.

    25. MCMercedes Coffman38:38

        Mm-hmm.

    26. CWChris Williamson38:38

        It's almost like a self-generated movie.

    27. MCMercedes Coffman38:41

        Mm-hmm.

    28. CWChris Williamson38:41

        Right? As you read it, it doesn't give you the story. You make the story yourself.

    29. MCMercedes Coffman38:45

        Yeah. Mm-hmm.

    30. CWChris Williamson38:45

        And I, uh, I don't know, I, I, I would be fascinated to see what the levels of relational satisfaction are for women that are deep in romance, romantasy, dark romance. I wonder whether that is giving them, uh, more inspiration or creating a standard of, "He's got a big thing. He's got a big thing. He's got a big thing and something in his eye. He's got a big thing [laughs] and, like, wings."
11. 39:55 – 42:53

    Does Desire Outpace Emotional Capacity?

    1. CWChris Williamson39:55

       How is emotional capacity not the same thing as emotional or relational readiness?

    2. MCMercedes Coffman40:01

       So emotional readiness is a person simply saying that they would want to be in a relationship with you or that they actually have what it takes. Now, emotional capacity is very important because it determines if a person could actually sit through what a relationship needs, which is the growing pains of it. Can they sit through an argument? Can they sit through unresolved conflict that you might trigger about their past or their traumas? And a lot of people have desire, but it outpaces their capacity. So they want to make-

    3. CWChris Williamson40:35

       Hmm

    4. MCMercedes Coffman40:35

       ... the relationship work, but desire in most relationship now outpaces capacity and emotional maturity. So now you have misalignment, not because people don't want the person they're with. It's just that they can't sustain a relationship with the person they're with.

    5. CWChris Williamson40:51

       And I suppose that's one of the times where somebody that sees the best in another person-

    6. MCMercedes Coffman40:57

       Mm-hmm

    7. CWChris Williamson40:57

       ... is going to be really damaged because they go, "Well, they want it."

    8. MCMercedes Coffman41:00

       Yes.

    9. CWChris Williamson41:00

       "I, I, I just need to believe in their potential to be able to get there."

    10. MCMercedes Coffman41:03

        Yes.

    11. CWChris Williamson41:03

        But we can't see potential.

    12. MCMercedes Coffman41:05

        No.

    13. CWChris Williamson41:05

        We can't see whether or not this person is going to-- This realization was done immediately. There was a Instagram post I saw the other day from some guy saying, uh, "Spending my time at the gym as opposed to writing a 2,000-word text message to an emotionally avoidant person on how to love me properly." And, you know, there's something about that dynamic of-- Alain de Botton's got this great video where he says, "After a while, the late-night couples counseling and the co-journaling sessions and the 'we just need to work through this,' you probably just need to admit, like, this is, this is just not the right fit, or this person is just not where I am."

    14. MCMercedes Coffman41:48

        And it's hard to do that because the thing is, is that a lot of the times a person could start off with emotional capacity and emotional availability. Serotonin's high, dopamine's high in the beginning, novelty is high, and they have the high desire. So everything is aligned in the beginning. It's just that once consistency, effort, and follow-through is required and now you're talking about a future and maybe moving in together, that's when people's limitations are revealed. So it's not as though-- And so that's why people want to stay and hold onto something longer 'cause they go, "I seen it in the beginning. He had all those qualities in the beginning. So they gotta be there. I'm just gonna remain patient until they return."And the truth is, is that, well, no, he could have genuinely had them at that time, but now you're on a different level, and he might not have the fuels for this level.

    15. CWChris Williamson42:41

        Hmm.

    16. MCMercedes Coffman42:43

        And then we have to accept it, you know, and kind of just go, "Okay, we're at the fork of the road. You don't have any more energy to keep going, and it was great while it lasted, but we have to be honest with

12. 42:53 – 45:10

    Why We Self-Sabotage in Relationships

    1. MCMercedes Coffman42:53

       ourselves."

    2. CWChris Williamson42:54

       I saw some research suggesting that relationship self-sabotage affects about 63% of people at some point. 2021 study published in the Journal of Couples and Relationship Therapy, based on interviews with about 700 people, found that the most common drivers were fear of getting hurt, fear of rejection, and low self-esteem, often leading people to end relationships before they could get too attached.

    3. MCMercedes Coffman43:17

       Yes. And I think the reason why there's such a fear of rejection is because ghosting is such a normalized thing now, which wasn't the case before. It's not like people are inherently, uh, more insecure or have lower self-esteem now. That's not the case. It's that ghosting has become more normalized than it's ever been before. There were ghosters back in the day and, you know, years ago. The difference is that it wasn't a normal thing, and there was some shame attached to it. Nowadays, it could happen almost anonymously, and you never have to see the person again. And so a lot of people are afraid of that rejection because it does trigger grief. Being ghosted isn't just something that you get over because you're like, "Oh, I just known him for two weeks." You biochemically are going through withdrawals. You're dealing with grief and all the stages of grief. And so I do think that a lot of people fear that, "Oh my gosh, if the narrative now is there's no good men left in the world, there's no good women left in dating apps," everybody's saying, "Well, why would I get in that pool?"

    4. CWChris Williamson44:19

       Hmm.

    5. MCMercedes Coffman44:19

       And so they start self-sabotaging the moment they see something because they have the confirmatory bias of, "It's probably not gonna work out." And so the confirmatory bias is gonna see what confirms the bias.

    6. CWChris Williamson44:29

       Hmm.

    7. MCMercedes Coffman44:30

       So the moment he is delayed in his response or she seems like she's not capable of sustaining attention, people start self-sabotaging. "Ah, this is better off," because people don't wanna get rejected again.

    8. CWChris Williamson44:44

       Interesting. You've got sort of two barbells going on at the same time, people who will continue to withstand stuff that they shouldn't and people that can't withstand stuff that they should.

    9. MCMercedes Coffman44:52

       Yes. And those people who can't, they don't ever grow their capacity. So although it gives instant gratification to just not enter the pool-

    10. CWChris Williamson45:01

        Hmm

    11. MCMercedes Coffman45:01

        ... and not have to deal with the discomfort-

    12. CWChris Williamson45:03

        I'm safe now

    13. MCMercedes Coffman45:04

        ... they're safe, right, but it's instant relief. The thing is they never grow their emotional capacity or their emotional maturity.

13. 45:10 – 46:16

    The Best Way to Build Emotional Capacity

    1. CWChris Williamson45:10

       What does growing your emotional capacity look like? How can people do that?

    2. MCMercedes Coffman45:13

       So one of the things is sitting through uncomfortable conversations, even if you feel anxious, even if you-- whether that's a first date, whether that is a conversation about growth, whether that is someone giving you constructive feedback, learning how to just sit through your feelings and recognizing that they're not gonna swallow you whole. If you cry today, you're not gonna be crying all day. So just kind of recognizing what you're feeling and sitting in that. Another thing is not to overload your life, because you could have capacity during the good times, but if you're, whether it's work-life balance or your life is overloaded and your nervous system is stressed out with cortisol-

    3. CWChris Williamson45:51

       Hmm

    4. MCMercedes Coffman45:51

       ... you will not have the capacity for connection or conflict repair. So n-never overload your life. Practice things for your nervous system stabilization. So whether that's meditation, have a gym routine, have a workout routine, discipline, which is another thing that is disappearing more and more. So I think that if we do that, our nervous system tends to regulate itself, and you'll be able to build your capacity over time.

    5. CWChris Williamson46:15

       Hmm.

14. 46:16 – 49:32

    Does Trauma Drive Relationship Self-Sabotage?

    1. CWChris Williamson46:16

       Talk to me about the relationship between unresolved trauma and self-sabotage.

    2. MCMercedes Coffman46:21

       Yeah. So a lot of the times, if-- unresolved trauma is a big pool of things, right? So it could be whether it was abuse or neglect. So there's lots of different things that fit in that category. But whenever there's un-unresolved trauma, the narrative that is created from that is, "I can't trust intimacy. I can't trust connection." And so when a person then gets in a relationship, no matter how good the partner is, there's always that n- that hypervigilance in the nervous system that just waits for this person to abandon or for this person to leave or hurt or harm them. And so I think a lot of people who have not healed their trauma tend to re-injure their own wounds subconsciously by doing that.

    3. CWChris Williamson47:09

       Hmm. How do you explain to someone that they have trauma when they don't see themselves as a traumatized person? I think there's probably two buckets of people. There's people who aren't traumatized, but say that they do have it, and there's people who are traumatized but don't realize it.

    4. MCMercedes Coffman47:25

       Yeah. So the thing-- I think the reason why a lot of people do not want to explore their trauma is because they think that trauma has to look a certain way, right? They think it has to be these big events, uh, whether that was terrible physical or sexual abuse, and that's not always the case. Trauma could be anything that made you feel incredibly dysregulated in your life, at any point in your life. It doesn't have to just be childhood. And so a lot of people have a discomfort talking about it, and one of the ways that you could tell that there's unresolved trauma is based on a person's reactivity. So a person who doesn't have trauma typically could sit through their feelings and not get easily triggered. But when relationships become increasingly more intimate and they get reactive in those relationships, it's usually unresolved trauma from childhood relationships-

    5. CWChris Williamson48:19

       Hmm

    6. MCMercedes Coffman48:19

       ... with either a parent or a caregiver. So that's a way that you could tell, "Okay, there's some unhealed stuff here." If I tend to get reactive when someone just said something very simple to me, I probably need to look at what that is.

    7. CWChris Williamson48:33

       In other news, Shopify powers 10% of all e-commerce companies in the US. They are the driving force behind Gymshark and Skims and Alo and Neutonic, which is why I partnered with them, because when it comes to converting browsers into buyers, they are best in class. Their checkout is 36% better on average compared to other leading commerce platforms, and with Shop Pay, you can boost conversions up to 50%. Basically, you didn't get into business to learn how to code or build a website or deal with the inventory stuff, bullshit on the back end. You just want to get down to creating and promoting an awesome product. And Shopify takes all of the mess off your hands and allows you to focus on the job you actually came here to do, designing and selling the thing that you love. So upgrade your business and get the same checkout that we use with Neutonic with Shopify. Right now, you can sign up for a $1 per month trial period by going to the link in the description below or heading to shopify.com/modernwisdom, all lowercase. That's shopify.com/modernwisdom.

15. 49:32 – 1:04:07

    We Need to Start With Self-Acceptance

    1. CWChris Williamson49:32

       What's a way that someone can rebuild their self-trust?

    2. MCMercedes Coffman49:38

       One of the ways is to always be honest with ourselves, right? So that requires self-reflections after every relationship, because I think relationships are beautiful mirrors, right? They're great ways to look at ourselves. How a person treats me is a reflection, or it's a reflection of what I allow, what I tolerate. So the relationships that I'm in are a good way to start looking at, "Hmm, how much do I value myself? How much do I trust myself based on how these people in my life that I value treat me?" That's one way. Another way is to build your emotional language. What am I feeling at any given moment? I always give people an emotional wheel because there's so many more emotions than just mad, glad, sad, angry, right? So there's all these things that we don't really tend to internally because we're so focused on the external, and because of that, we're trusting other people, places, and things much more than we trust ourselves because there's so much self-abandonment. Even the most confident person has probably some level of self-abandonment that they're not even aware of.

    3. CWChris Williamson50:43

       What, what are some of the small ways self-abandonment shows up?

    4. MCMercedes Coffman50:47

       Prioritizing other people, places, or things. Not really taking a pause to ask yourself, "Am I okay with it? Do I feel safe in this environment? Do I feel safe with this person? Do I really want to go to this party, or am I just people pleasing?" Every time that we override that and we go against what we feel is right or regulating to ourselves is the way that we self-abandon.

    5. CWChris Williamson51:11

       Hmm. Yeah, it's, uh, it's strange to think about how people that are really thoughtful often end up thinking themselves out of prioritization. Like I, I see the best in this person.

    6. MCMercedes Coffman51:27

       Mm-hmm.

    7. CWChris Williamson51:28

       I, I-- they made me happy.

    8. MCMercedes Coffman51:30

       Mm-hmm.

    9. CWChris Williamson51:30

       They make me happy sometimes.

    10. MCMercedes Coffman51:31

        Mm-hmm.

    11. CWChris Williamson51:33

        So I'll just continue to sort of shunt my own needs to one side. I'll put them over here.

    12. MCMercedes Coffman51:38

        Yes, and then they self-abandon. And the thing is, I mean, one of my favorite quotes that I love that I tell a lot of my empathic clients or understanding clients is, "Suffering breeds compassion." The more a person has suffered in their own life, usually the more compassionate they become to others because they don't want anybody else to suffer the way they did, right? So oftentimes overgiving and being overconsiderate is a reflection of how you were abandoned and how you're still abandoning yourselves.

    13. CWChris Williamson52:08

        Hmm.

    14. MCMercedes Coffman52:09

        A lot of people will continue the trauma that was inflicted on them, but they do it themselves. At some point in adulthood, they start becoming the perpetrator to their own pain.

    15. CWChris Williamson52:21

        It's a unique kind of self-harm though, because it's one that society would see from the outside as something noble.

    16. MCMercedes Coffman52:28

        Absolutely.

    17. CWChris Williamson52:29

        Isn't that so strange?

    18. MCMercedes Coffman52:30

        Absolutely.

    19. CWChris Williamson52:30

        It's so funny.

    20. MCMercedes Coffman52:31

        They're like, "It's so kind."

    21. CWChris Williamson52:32

        Tragic.

    22. MCMercedes Coffman52:32

        "So-- You're so kind." And that's, uh, I love Dr. Gabor Mate. He talks a lot about that, where he says if you go and look at all the eulogies of people who died an early death, they'll talk about how this man would give the shirt off his back to anybody. He was the kindest person. And nobody looks at, well, that may have led to the self-abandonment that increased his inflammation, suppressed his immune system, and eventually got him to be dead now.

    23. CWChris Williamson53:02

        Yeah. I-- it's strange. A lot of the things that are pro-social are, uh, abandoning to the self. So Joe Hudson has told this story to me, which is, it's so great. His daughter kept on crying in the bathroom when she was nine years old, and he went in, and while she was crying, she sounded also, she was yelling.

    24. MCMercedes Coffman53:20

        Mm-hmm.

    25. CWChris Williamson53:20

        S- And he said, "Hey, are, are you sad or are you pissed off?"

    26. MCMercedes Coffman53:23

        Hmm.

    27. CWChris Williamson53:24

        She says, "I'm pissed off." He said, "Well, how come you're crying?" She says, "Well, when I get angry, my sister runs away, but when I cry, she comes and gives me a hug."

    28. MCMercedes Coffman53:32

        Mm-hmm.

    29. CWChris Williamson53:33

        And it's this weird, the sort of pro-social nature or the antisocial nature of making your displeasure known, of prioritizing yourself, and the sort of pro-social nature of domesticating that, and that usually means turning outward discontent, rage, anger, displeasure, criticism-

    30. MCMercedes Coffman53:53

        Mm-hmm
16. 1:04:07 – 1:07:34

    Why We Crave Chaos and Stability

    1. CWChris Williamson1:04:07

       How do you... That's a great point. Uh, there is a, a, a world of dating for certain people where if you were to draw a timeline of their dating life-

    2. MCMercedes Coffman1:04:18

       Mm-hmm

    3. CWChris Williamson1:04:19

       ... it would be relationships with people who are, to them, superbly exciting and totally terrifying and disregulating.

    4. MCMercedes Coffman1:04:28

       Mm-hmm.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:04:29

       And relationships with people who think that they're wonderful and they hate because of how boring they seem.

    6. MCMercedes Coffman1:04:34

       Mm-hmm.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:04:35

       Punctuated with brief periods of terrifying loneliness in between it.

    8. MCMercedes Coffman1:04:39

       Mm-hmm.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:04:40

       And they just sort of swing between partners that they fear but are excited by, and those they feel safe but bored with.

    10. MCMercedes Coffman1:04:47

        Yes.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:04:48

        Talk to me about this-

    12. MCMercedes Coffman1:04:49

        Yes

    13. CWChris Williamson1:04:49

        ... avatar, the safe but bored, excited but fearful.

    14. MCMercedes Coffman1:04:54

        So yes, I think that the reason why that happens is because people have created a belief that our partner is supposed to be our everything. They're supposed to bring us excitement and stability and fire and calm, and there are other areas in our life that could give us that. If your relationship is stable but not intense or exciting enough, have an exciting career.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:05:21

        Hmm.

    16. MCMercedes Coffman1:05:22

        Go bungee jumping, do exciting hobbies and activities, have friendships that are exciting. I just think that we have w- we... It's almost like staying in the casino and not leaving when you win a good prize 'cause you're like, "I feel like there's a better prize out there and I wanna win more." And so that's the issue, is like we don't know when to leave. We don't know when to go, "No, but this is stable and this is good. I'll get my excitement elsewhere." Because all intensity and excitement nowadays is, is nervous system activation. It's not that this person is so much more exciting. They give you the love bombing in- intensity, and that makes you feel alive because we've become very numb nowadays. We're overstimulated, and so when you're overstimulated, it's almost like being shot with an anesthetic. You need something really hard to awaken you.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:06:10

        Oh, you're like a masochist at a sex party who needs car batteries clamped on his nipples-

    18. MCMercedes Coffman1:06:15

        Absolutely

    19. CWChris Williamson1:06:15

        ... before he can get started.

    20. MCMercedes Coffman1:06:16

        Because you feel something. [laughs] Yes.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:06:19

        That's right.

    22. MCMercedes Coffman1:06:19

        I'm not even gonna ask you where you, where you've seen that, but I believe everything you said.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:06:24

        Who said seen? I may have ex-

    24. MCMercedes Coffman1:06:25

        [laughs]

    25. CWChris Williamson1:06:25

        The, the, the, the guy wearing this nose and mustache may have experienced it. Uh, before we continue, as you're probably aware, I'm not a massive drinker, at least not anymore. But even if you too are not drinking, sometimes you just want something cold, frosty, and tasty without the fear of a hangover the next day, which is why I'm such a huge fan of Athletic Brewing Co.Thank you very much. Their non-alcoholic brews taste just as good as the real thing. They've got IPAs, hazy goldens. They're so good that you'll forget that there's no alcohol in them until you wake up the next day feeling fantastic. It means that you can enjoy the ritual without the wreckage. No hangover, no 3:00 AM panic, no wasted Sunday recovering from Saturday. That is why I partnered with them. You can find Athletic Brewing Co.'s best-selling lineup at grocery or liquor stores near you, or best option, you can get the full variety pack of four flavors shipped right to your door. Right now, get up to 15% off your first online order by going to the link in the description below or heading to athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom and using the code MODERNWISDOM at checkout. That's athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom and MODERNWISDOM at checkout. Near beer, terms and conditions apply. Athletic Brewing Company, fit for all

17. 1:07:34 – 1:14:15

    Love Bombing: The Most Dangerous Red Flag

    1. CWChris Williamson1:07:34

       times. Why is the feeling obsessed, the love bombing thing in early dating a red flag?

    2. MCMercedes Coffman1:07:41

       Because obsession is rarely ever about the other person. Obsession is about nervous system activation. Because in early dating, you do not have enough data to know if this person is compatible with you. You do not know enough about their patterns. You do not know enough about alignment between you two. And so if you're feeling obsessed in early dating, meaning you can't stop thinking about this person, you're having intrusive thoughts about this person, you're constantly waiting for their messages and rereading messages, that's your nervous system saying something is uncertain, and the nervous system is designed to create certainty out of uncertainty. So when a person is inconsistent and they don't give you enough clarity, the likelihood of obsession is much higher in that situation, in that connection, than a person who gives you stability and clarity early on.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:08:33

       Isn't that so interesting that what people are looking for a lot of the time, which is the spark and the rush-

    4. MCMercedes Coffman1:08:41

       Mm-hmm

    5. CWChris Williamson1:08:42

       ... is the, the presence of that is highly predictive of this person not being good for you-

    6. MCMercedes Coffman1:08:49

       Yes

    7. CWChris Williamson1:08:49

       ... as opposed to being good for you.

    8. MCMercedes Coffman1:08:50

       Yes.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:08:50

       What a cruel trick.

    10. MCMercedes Coffman1:08:51

        And you know why? Because we started saying these things that confuse children and teens by saying, we started calling it butterflies, and that's so pretty and cute. "Oh, he gives me butterflies." No, he, he activates your nervous system. He's not good for you, [laughs] right? And so we don't say it as that. So everybody starts being conditioned into the belief that when I feel a lot for this person and I'm feeling anxious around them, that this might mean that this is my guy or this is my woman.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:09:21

        You think it's that much due to sort of modern cultural conditioning? There's a lot of push-pull dynamic, intermittent variable schedule reward. I mean, this is the same tempo that slot machines use.

    12. MCMercedes Coffman1:09:34

        Yep.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:09:34

        It's the same dynamic that social media companies use.

    14. MCMercedes Coffman1:09:37

        Yep.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:09:37

        So I don't disagree that referring to chaos as chemistry-

    16. MCMercedes Coffman1:09:44

        Mm-hmm

    17. CWChris Williamson1:09:44

        ... is not good re-patterning.

    18. MCMercedes Coffman1:09:48

        Yep.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:09:48

        But this is bottom of the brain stem stuff too, right? So again, the reason that I say that, when people hear explanations for situations that they've been through, a lot of the time the self-blame comes up.

    20. MCMercedes Coffman1:10:01

        Mm-hmm.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:10:01

        And you go, "I get it. Would be great if you could break this pattern. I'm sure that you can."

    22. MCMercedes Coffman1:10:05

        Mm-hmm. It's not easy.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:10:07

        There's a long history. How many of your ancestors-

    24. MCMercedes Coffman1:10:11

        Have done this

    25. CWChris Williamson1:10:12

        ... you, you would not be here if it wasn't for this dynamic.

    26. MCMercedes Coffman1:10:15

        Absolutely. It's not easy. It's not easy.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:10:17

        You are the proud progeny of people that were gaslit into thinking that they-

    28. MCMercedes Coffman1:10:20

        Yes

    29. CWChris Williamson1:10:20

        ... loved the person they were with.

    30. MCMercedes Coffman1:10:21

        Yes. And it's not easy. The difference though is, is that I think with awareness, we could just learn to marry the limbic system and the primitive part of the brain with the front of the brain. That's all it is. It's integration. If we could just integrate, and the best way to do that is to take space. Whatever we feel to just say, "It feels really good. This person is number one on the list right now, but they're not my only one, and I'm not completely emotionally investing in this person because I now know that this is biochemistry more so than this is clarity."
18. 1:14:15 – 1:17:35

    Who Falls Hardest Into Limerence?

    1. CWChris Williamson1:14:15

       Uh, can we talk about limerence?

    2. MCMercedes Coffman1:14:16

       Yep.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:14:16

       This is a term that I only learned pretty recently-

    4. MCMercedes Coffman1:14:19

       Mm-hmm

    5. CWChris Williamson1:14:19

       ... but is just fascinating. What's limerence?

    6. MCMercedes Coffman1:14:21

       Limerence is an emotional fixation with a person that is usually fueled by uncertainty. So it is, you know, some of the signs of limerence is a unusual fixation with the person, constant ruminating thoughts about the person, extreme highs and lows in your mood regarding this person, waiting and craving their validation, and this usually happens very early on in dating. So you don't really even know the person fully, but you just notice a deep obsession with this person, and that would qualify as limerence, which we're seeing more and more nowadays.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:14:56

       Is there a certain type of person who's more vulnerable to limerence?

    8. MCMercedes Coffman1:15:01

       Yes. So several different people. So the, the first group of people are the people who have unresolved issues as far as unresolved wounds. So people with certain attachment styles are more likely to fall for limerence because limerence is oftentimes based on uncertainty and inconsistency. So if you had a childhood where love was given only, uh, sometimes and it was unpredictable, there was emotional unavailability there, you're much more likely to fall into limerence. If you are a highly imaginative person, you're much more likely to fall into limerence-

    9. CWChris Williamson1:15:36

       Mm

    10. MCMercedes Coffman1:15:36

        ... because you fall for the fantasy of a person, and you could imagine what life with them could be like or intimacy with them would be like. So those types of people as far as, um, a person who is either emotionally intelligent or highly imaginative, they typically-

    11. CWChris Williamson1:15:50

        Creative artists

    12. MCMercedes Coffman1:15:52

        ... they tend to fall for limerence because they build a story around the chemistry they feel for a person. Um, a highly empathic person because they extend understanding. "I understand why he's not always available. I understand why he's inconsistent." So they're much more likely to fall into limerence as well.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:16:08

        Large scale surveys s- found that 64% overall prevalence for limerence with 32% experiencing it at the level of full person addiction, far higher than the previously circulated estimate of 5%. Anxiously attached people were significantly over-represented. In an analysis of two and a half thousand self-identified limerence found personality try- types that were dramatically over-represented. Uh, highly intuitive, feeling-oriented people were the most prone, INFPs, INFJs, INTJs, INTPs, ENFP. So it's the intuitive, it's the feel, uh, the most common personality types, ESFJ-

    14. MCMercedes Coffman1:16:48

        Mm-hmm

    15. CWChris Williamson1:16:48

        ... ESTJ, and ISFJ, those are the most common ones, barely represented at all.

    16. MCMercedes Coffman1:16:53

        Yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:16:53

        Which is interesting.

    18. MCMercedes Coffman1:16:54

        Yeah.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:16:54

        So it's out on the tails for limerence.

    20. MCMercedes Coffman1:16:55

        Yeah, it's introverts. The introverted ones more likely to Is, more likely because they're more introspective, more empathic oftentimes, also more imaginative. And so, uh, same with anxiously attached people, because anxiously attached people usually come from childhoods where there was lots of unpredictability. And people who they typically fall into limerence with are unavailable people. So there is a resemblance to familiar patterns from the childhood.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:17:25

        Mm.

    22. MCMercedes Coffman1:17:26

        So anxiously attached people, introspective people, introverted people, um, much more likely to fall into full addiction with another

19. 1:17:35 – 1:25:37

    Why Inconsistent Praise Hooks You In

    1. MCMercedes Coffman1:17:35

       person.

    2. CWChris Williamson1:17:36

       Interesting. I was thinking the other day about some of the ways that sort of chaos or unpredictability in the home might show up that people might not realize.

    3. MCMercedes Coffman1:17:45

       Mm-hmm.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:17:45

       One of them being an unpredictability around praise and what performance and doing well-

    5. MCMercedes Coffman1:17:51

       Mm-hmm

    6. CWChris Williamson1:17:51

       ... is.

    7. MCMercedes Coffman1:17:52

       Mm-hmm.

    8. CWChris Williamson1:17:52

       Because every kid just wants m- mom and dad to say, "You did a good job." But if you don't know what the standards are for you to be able to do that-

    9. MCMercedes Coffman1:18:02

       Mm-hmm

    10. CWChris Williamson1:18:03

        ... that's a kind of unpredictability that strikes pretty close to the heart of what a kid cares about. Yeah, the basement has a trapdoor and a slide that goes down all the way to neglect and abuse and stuff like that.

    11. MCMercedes Coffman1:18:14

        Mm-hmm.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:18:14

        But assuming that that's kind of niche for the reason that it's horrible-

    13. MCMercedes Coffman1:18:19

        Mm-hmm

    14. CWChris Williamson1:18:19

        ... a much more common way that this might happen is, well, you played a sports game, and you got in the car with mom and dad, and you got feedback, and you had no idea about why you were a good boy or a bad girl that day. You just didn't know.

    15. MCMercedes Coffman1:18:32

        Mm-hmm.

    16. CWChris Williamson1:18:33

        And that's a, a type of unpredictability and chaos, I think, that gets kids who then become adults to try and work out, "Well, what do I need to do?"I just want to feel like I matter, like I belong, like I'm good-

    17. MCMercedes Coffman1:18:46

        Mm-hmm

    18. CWChris Williamson1:18:46

        ... like things are predictable and stable.

    19. MCMercedes Coffman1:18:48

        Mm-hmm.

    20. CWChris Williamson1:18:48

        Uh, it doesn't feel like that. So w- how do I need to just reconstruct and deconstruct this thing-

    21. MCMercedes Coffman1:18:53

        Mm-hmm

    22. CWChris Williamson1:18:54

        ... so that I feel safe?

    23. MCMercedes Coffman1:18:54

        Absolutely. I think that a lot of those children, I mean, I write about it in my book too, because a lot of kids, I mean, I find kids fascinating because that's really where a lot of dysregulation occurs, right? Um, I think that a lot of children who had this praise where it's unpredictable when you're gonna be seen, when you're gonna feel valued, because belonging is the most important thing for children, too.

    24. CWChris Williamson1:19:19

        Mm-hmm.

    25. MCMercedes Coffman1:19:20

        A kid won't stop loving a parent, no matter how abusive the parent is. They'll stop loving themselves, right? And so a lot of the times a child will start turning inward and going, "What did I do wrong? How can I be better?" This creates a hypervigilant nervous system, which is I'm always alert to make sure that everybody is pleased with me, whatever room I walk into. And then they bring that into dating, where it's, uh, "Oh, this person doesn't seem happy with me today. What can I do to keep them happy?" And so not only is there self-abandonment that's been in the making for a long time since childhood, but now there is this dopamine every time this person looks at you, responds, even if it's days later. You are now biochemically addicted to this other person because your parents didn't give you the consistency to anchor into your own identity.

    26. CWChris Williamson1:20:10

        And it's strange that this very pro-social, very giving, very charitable, very reciprocally altruistic, you know, kin selection-y type thing is self-destructive.

    27. MCMercedes Coffman1:20:22

        Mm-hmm.

    28. CWChris Williamson1:20:22

        You f- you don't know whether someone is doing something that's pro-social and caring and charitable because they want to or because they need to.

    29. MCMercedes Coffman1:20:31

        Mm-hmm.

    30. CWChris Williamson1:20:32

        And, uh, would it be great if there were more people being pro-social in the world? Yeah.
20. 1:25:37 – 1:27:30

    The Wrong People Are the Hardest to Get Over

    1. CWChris Williamson1:25:37

       Why do you say that the wrong people are the hardest to get over?

    2. MCMercedes Coffman1:25:41

       Because they're the most addicting, and the reason why is not because they're so great. It's because the wrong people oftentimes are the emotionally unavailable people, the people who do not have the capacity to sustain something substantial with you. So whenever there's uncertainty and unpredictability, there's dopamine spikes, which is highly addicting. There's also cortisol spikes, which is highly stressful. And then there is nervous system dysregulation because the nervous system is designed for certainty. So the wrong person triggers uncertainty in you, and all your brain and your nervous system wants to do is focus in on this person to get clarity. And so you're really chasing clarity, but you're now reframing it as, "I must really love this person, and I can't get o- I can't stop thinking about them, so I'm wondering if they were my person all along." No, that's just your nervous system trying to regulate itself.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:26:34

       After the breakup.

    4. MCMercedes Coffman1:26:34

       That's why it's obsessed. Yes, after the breakup, because your nervous system is saying, "I felt this intense high with this person that I haven't felt with anybody else since. There must be something meaningful there, and I am not ready really to let this go." Also, whenever there's uncertainty, there's all these gaps of clarity, which makes projecting a fantasy much easier. You could paint anything on a blank canvas. So if someone just gives you limited pieces of themselves, you're like, "Ugh, he told me he likes me, but I also think that what he really likes is this, this, this, and this." He never said that. But because he didn't give you enough, now your brain is going to fill in the gaps with a fantasy that works for you, and if we have to choose fantasy or reality, we're much more likely to wanna hold onto a fantasy and not be able to get over a fantasy than a reality.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:27:29

       That is so

21. 1:27:30 – 1:28:53

    Stop Being So Hard on Yourself

    1. CWChris Williamson1:27:30

       good. What do you say to people who feel like they're regularly a bad picker?

    2. MCMercedes Coffman1:27:35

       I tell them not to be so hard on themselves because I think it goes back to the self-blame, right? Like, it's not that, you know, we like to say our picker is broken, but I don't think that our picker is necessarily broken. I just think that our nervous system has-- is starting from a dysregulated baseline, and that's because modern day has conditioned a baseline that is determined by dysregulation. There's so much uncertainty, and there's not enough clarity, and so what we're picking is probably gonna be uncertainty. We're probably going to pick based on intensity and chemistry. And so I think that the people who feel like they have a history of misaligned relationships, I would say take a pause, do some self-reflection. Therapy is always helpful. I'm always pro therapy. Um, and really kind of just learn what your patterns are and find out what your standards are because usually bad-- people who are bad picks or emotionally unavailable, they usually overstep boundaries. They usually disrespect the person, and we just kind of let it go.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:28:46

       Mm.

    4. MCMercedes Coffman1:28:46

       So realign with yourself and what your standards and your boundaries are, and you'll start picking better people.

22. 1:28:53 – 1:30:33

    How to Comfortably Hold Your Boundaries

    1. CWChris Williamson1:28:54

       What about when it comes time to hold a boundary as someone who is emotionally available, empathetic, sees the best in others-

    2. MCMercedes Coffman1:29:04

       Mm-hmm

    3. CWChris Williamson1:29:04

       ... and the, the fear, the who am I to, is this me being too demanding?

    4. MCMercedes Coffman1:29:12

       Mm-hmm.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:29:12

       My needs usually don't matter. How do you advise someone in that moment? Boundary needs enforcing.

    6. MCMercedes Coffman1:29:17

       Mm-hmm.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:29:18

       Not passive-aggressively three days later.

    8. MCMercedes Coffman1:29:20

       Mm-hmm.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:29:20

       Not resentfully-

    10. MCMercedes Coffman1:29:21

        Mm-hmm

    11. CWChris Williamson1:29:22

        ... after the dinner's finished. How do you advise someone in that moment to become more comfortable?

    12. MCMercedes Coffman1:29:28

        Great question, because oftentimes people have a hard time setting boundaries because of fear of abandonment, right? Which is pretty normal. It's-

    13. CWChris Williamson1:29:34

        It's a tactical problem, right?

    14. MCMercedes Coffman1:29:36

        Yes.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:29:36

        We're talk- We can throw pithy aphorisms around all day-

    16. MCMercedes Coffman1:29:39

        Mm-hmm

    17. CWChris Williamson1:29:39

        ... but ultimately, this is gonna come into conflict with your nervous system.

    18. MCMercedes Coffman1:29:42

        Mm-hmm.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:29:43

        How does someone get better at being the bad guy?

    20. MCMercedes Coffman1:29:46

        You reframe it and say, "My boundaries are not gonna push them away. My boundaries are gonna keep the good person, and it's gonna protect the relationship," because boundaries are not pushing good relationships out. They're just protecting good relationships. So speaking up and saying, "Hey, Chris, you did this one thing, and it hurt my feelings, and I would like for us not to do that," that's me saying, "If you wanna stay in a relationship with me and if I wanna protect this relationship between us, I have to say this." That's my advocacy for what we have.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:30:16

        Mm.

    22. MCMercedes Coffman1:30:17

        But most people see a boundary as I'm gonna hurt their feelings, and they might then reject me, and they don't really consider, but the relationship has its own needs. And if you don't speak up and you don't say what that boundary is, you are abandoning that relationship and its needs.

23. 1:30:33 – 1:31:06

    Where to Find Mercedes

    1. CWChris Williamson1:30:34

       So good. Mercedes Coffman, ladies and gentlemen. You rule.

    2. MCMercedes Coffman1:30:37

       Thank you.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:30:37

       Everyone should go and check out your Instagram. I love it. I think the stuff that you put out is fantastic. Where else do you want people to go?

    4. MCMercedes Coffman1:30:43

       Instagram is good, mercedescoffmantherapy. And then they, they could also go to my website, which is on my Instagram.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:30:48

       Heck yeah. Mercedes, I appreciate you. Thank you.

    6. MCMercedes Coffman1:30:50

       Thank you. Thank you, Chris. It was an honor.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:30:52

       All right. Goodbye, people.

    8. MCMercedes Coffman1:30:54

       Bye, people. This is fun.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:30:56

       You nail it. That was fucking-

    10. MCMercedes Coffman1:30:58

        Thank you

    11. CWChris Williamson1:30:59

        ... epic. Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, another one that I know you'll love is just here.

Episode duration: 1:31:08