The Evolutionary Psychology Of Anxiety & Depression - Ed Hagen

1. 0:00 – 0:38

   Intro

   1. EHEd Hagen0:00

      Our hypothesis was that the sex difference in depression is really a strength difference, not a sex difference. And so what we found is that when we controlled for upper body strength, the sex difference in depression diminished and actually went away in, in some of our analyses. Suggesting that, uh, once you control for the differences in strength between the sexes, there is no longer a sex difference in depression. And our, our hypothesis for that is that stronger people are less likely to become depressed, and physically weaker people are more likely to be depressed, in our data. (wind blows)

   2. CWChris Williamson0:34

      One of the phenomenons that I'm most interested in is depression.

2. 0:38 – 5:42

   Why Has Depression Survived Evolution?

   1. CWChris Williamson0:38

      How should we understand depression through, uh, an evolutionarily adaptive lens?

   2. EHEd Hagen0:44

      Yeah. Well, I think the... If you look at depression, it's the most common mental health problem. And it is, it is a problem. I don't... Nothing I say should be construed as, as trying to diminish the fact that it is a, a very serious problem. But when we look at the causes of depression, it's very clear. The evidence is overwhelming that it's adversity. Um, folks, uh, that experience adversity are at much higher risk of experiencing depression, and folks with depression have been much more likely to have experienced adversity. And there's quite a bit of evidence that that's a causal relationship, that adversity causes depression. And rates are quite high. Uh, in comparison to something like schizophrenia where the rates might be around 1%. Um, rates of depression are at least 10 times higher than that, if not more. So it's very common, it's caused by adversity, and the symptoms, unlike the symptoms of schizophrenia which are kind of odd, including delusions and hallucinations, uh, the depressions of, uh, the symptoms of depression are things that we've all experienced. Sadness, loss of interest, uh, inability to sleep, overeating or lack of eating, um, anxious movements like this when we're, we're stressed out. So their, their, their symptoms are, are not, um, strange or, um, uncommon. They are things that we've all experienced in response to adversity. So I think these types of evidence suggest that, um, we should really think of depression probably as an extreme form of sadness, or what Randy Hor- Thornhill and others have called psychic pain. And I think this is the best fundamental approach, an evolutionary approach to depression, is thinking about, um, physical pain. Uh, it's unpleasant, we don't like it. It's costly, it prevents us from doing things. But we have special receptors for it and special neural circuits for it, and it is caused by physical injuries. Um, and you might say, "Why do we, why do we have to suffer physical pain?" Well, we suffer it, uh, for a number of reasons. One is if you injure yourself, stop doing (laughs) whatever you were doing to injure yourself. So it's a signal that you're doing something that is going to harm your biological fitness, as we call it. And so that's one clear function of physical pain. And a second clear function is we b- we begin to think about what did I do to get myself into this situation and, and learn how do I avoid this kind of situation in the future. So that physical pain, uh, you know, when I broke my ankle, it hurt like hell, uh, but it kept me off my feet. It made me think, "Don't do that stupid thing that you did (laughs) to break your ankle." Uh, and, um, I've more or less avoided breaking my ankle, uh, subsequently. And so Thornhill and others have proposed psychic pain is very analogous to that. Um, something bad is happening to you, not physically, but socially perhaps. Um, your wife has left you, your boyfriend has left you, you've lost your job. Um, that's bad for your biological fitness, and you need to think about it. So you need to, first of all, stop doing (laughs) whatever it is that drove away your romantic partner or got you fired, um, or causing your friends to, um, disown you. And you need to think about that, and you really need to focus your attention on that. And then maybe learn, uh, don't do whatever it was that you did, uh, that may have, uh, caused your relationship to break up or you to get fired. And it may turn out that you didn't do anything wrong, but you need to think about it. It... You need to stop and say, "Something really bad has happened and I need to address this." And so psychic pain, sadness, and even depression, um, are probably very analogous to psychic pain as a way to, um, stop furthering any problems that you have perhaps caused or other people have caused you. And, and maybe somebody else has, has caused the problem, and you kinda need to deal with them somehow. So I think this, this is the, uh... Sorry about that. My cat, there's a cat down there.

   3. CWChris Williamson5:08

      (laughs)

   4. EHEd Hagen5:09

      Um... (laughs) Uh, we all need attention, right? Um, so, uh, and this, this work was, uh, there's many people that have kind of put forward this idea. Randy Thornhill, um, Randy Nesse, uh, Paul Andrews, um, is somebody that's been currently working on this. So I think this is, is the kind of the, the most likely, uh, evolutionary explanation for...

   5. CWChris Williamson5:41

      Why

3. 5:42 – 15:00

   Explaining Depressive Symptoms

   1. CWChris Williamson5:42

      would being depressed cause us to act in the way that we do? The symptoms of depression like, uh, low energy, like not wanting to get out of bed and go and do things, like sometimes being antisocial. You know, i- if I was to design a coping mechanism for psychological pain, some of the time if I went through something in the past that had happened with my relationship or with my friends, I might want to reach out to them-... More. I want, want to go out there and try and do things to fix it. But it seems like depression causes people to be less mobile in that regard.

   2. EHEd Hagen6:20

      Yeah. And, um, you might even bring up the, the most mysterious symptom, which is suicidality. Why, if something bad has happened, uh, would you ever wanna kill yourself? (laughs) Uh, that's a horrible way to increase your biological fitness. So, not all adversity is going to cause depression. So, in many cases, we do know how to deal with adversity. We do know what to do. And-

   3. CWChris Williamson6:43

      Ed, why don't you just g- for a second, tell me, give me-

   4. EHEd Hagen6:45

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson6:45

      ... give me the, um, uh, the definition of adversity? For like, what, what do you mean when you say adversity?

   6. EHEd Hagen6:51

      So from a evolutionary perspective, it would be any situation or circumstance that's likely to decrease your biological fitness, i.e. decrease your ability to survive and reproduce. So, losing a mate is obviously horrible for your reproduction. Um, getting sick or can, uh, physical injury can often trigger, um, depression, so that is obviously something that is bad for your biological fitness. Getting fired, that's your source of resources. That's what you need to survive. So anything that would have a really dramatic negative impact on your ability to survive and reproduce, um, is what I'm referring to as adversity. And, you know, natural disasters, um, things that are gonna basically reduce your access to resources and, um, mates and social partners, all the kinds of things that we needed to have access to on a daily basis of our evolutionary history. So that's what I mean by adversity. And we've all ex- or death of a loved one. That's one of the most common ones. And, um, if your parent dies or your spouse dies or child dies, that can be really bad for your biological fitness, because we really require our social partners to, and we always did, to survive and reproduce. We needed hunting partners and mates, um, and folks to share food with us, um, and take care of us when we're sick. So if one of those folks dies, that's really horrible, potentially, for your own biological fitness. So that's what I mean by adversity. And, um, what Paul Andrews argues, I think, um, quite correctly, is when something like that happens, you really need to shift your cognitive resources to begin to think about these problems, 'cause they're not easy to solve. Um, if a mate leaves you, uh, what do you do? Or if someone dies, you can't bring them back to life. So, these kinds of problems, this is where we think depression is gonna really kick in, is when you suffer adversity where the solution isn't obvious. Um, you know, what, what you need to do to address that kind of adversity, um, isn't clear, and you're gonna... It really takes a lot of thinking, so you're going to shift your attention to the problem, and it's gonna take a lot of thinking to figure out what you need to do. And when you're doing that, you can't be doing something else, so there's a trade-off. And that may just require you taking a lot of time to yourself to really think through these things. And the, the strongest piece of evidence for that is that rumination, intense rumination, is a really major component of depression for, for many people. Not all, but it's a very common component of depression, that when people get depressed, they really start thinking over and over and over about what happened. "Why did, you know, so-and-so leave me?" Or did that... And I'll just give you, uh, my personal example. When my, um, dad died, uh, he died of cancer, and my mom became depressed. And she was really withdrawn, and what she was thinking about is could she have noticed something sooner and gotten him to the doctor sooner? Could she have noticed, uh, you know, that something was wrong? And, um, you might say, "Well, he's dead. What, what, what could that help?" And it's not gonna help, obviously, bring back her husband, but it could help her, when she's now interacting with other family members, to really pay closer attention to things that might be indicating some health problem. And so all of that rumination about my dad's cancer and the months leading up to it before it was diagnosed, um, obviously wouldn't bring him back, but could have helped her, um, potentially notice problems, other health problems in folks, before they become untreatable. And in fact, um, because my dad died of colon cancer, that's highly heritable. She just started pestering me, uh, to go get checked out and get a colonoscopy, which is, of course, the last thing anybody wants to do. And so after months and months and months of pestering, I finally did it. And guess what? They found a huge polyp. So, uh, maybe she saved my life by thinking, by becoming depressed and really thinking carefully about, um, what happened to my dad.

   7. CWChris Williamson11:04

      Wow.

   8. EHEd Hagen11:05

      So that would be an example-

   9. CWChris Williamson11:06

      That is cr-

   10. EHEd Hagen11:06

       ... of how this might work.

   11. CWChris Williamson11:09

       Yeah. Oh, my Go- so, okay, I, I really like, uh, peeling apart a phenomenon that everybody that's listening to this will be familiar with. You know, low mood, then getting across into depression. Some people maybe even that have dealt with suicidal ideations and stuff like that. And actually looking at them from, uh, through a lens of, okay, why did this come about? Because, especially if you are dealing with severe low mood, even more if it's chronic, if it's over an e- extended period of time, it feels like a personal curse. It feels like some evil god from on high has decided to hit you with an arrow, but it wasn't cupid's arrow. It was this depression arrow. And it's just the, the perfect storm of your thought loops poking you in exactly the place that it's going to hurt you, and it feels so curated. It feels so individualized for you. Uh, and I think that looking at it through this lens h- hopefully kinda helps to just, you know, relieve a little bit of that sense of, "It's about me." Hm, well i- it seems like it's not about you. It's about the evolutionary pressures that would have made these kinds of emotions useful ancestrally. And that story (laughs) -... of you with your dad and, and, and your mom is, you know, like, it couldn't be more perfect of an example.

   12. EHEd Hagen12:34

       Yeah. Um, and it, again, depression is really, um, adversive. Um, it's just like physical pain. Nobody... Uh, you know, if you break your ankle, you'll know that, um, y- you won't be able to sleep, um, s- you won't be able to do all kinds of things that you could normally do, so, you know. And psychic pain is, is very analogous, um, to that. Now, I want to bring up a, a second possible function of these kinds of symptoms. I think the ones that I mentioned are probably the, the primary ones that hold across most, if not all, cases of depression. But just like when we suffer a physical injury, um, it hurts. That's our own personal experience of it. But in many cases, we're gonna signal. If we're a young kid, um, we're gonna cry, uh, we may yell out. We're going to be, um, uh, we're gonna have expressions of, of physical pain on our face. And those are likely signals and signals of need, because when you, uh, suffer a physical injury, um, or a health problem, you often can't, uh, deal with it yourself. Uh, you need people to help you. If you break your ankle, uh, you're not gonna be able to feed yourself. You may not be able to do all kinds of things that you could normally do, and you may need to signal, uh, for help. And we have all kinds of evolved signals, like tears and crying and, and screaming, um, to signal that, and I think depression also, uh, involves a, a component of signaling. So psychic pain, just like physical pain, often we can't address adversity completely by ourselves. Um, and so there's going to be facial expressions, and I think some of that, those physical manifestations of depression where you're not doing anything, uh, our social partners are gonna pick up on that. And, um, they're gonna make inferences about our state of mind, um, that something's wrong. And, um, I think that's ex- that's another evolutionary reason why depression does involve some of these, um, im- have some of these kinds of impacts on our behavior, that they are also to signal our social partners that we are suffering adversity and, uh, we do need help in, in addressing some of these things. So, that's probably a, a second reason for, for some of these symptoms, is that signaling component.

   13. CWChris Williamson14:59

       Why is there a sex

4. 15:00 – 19:23

   The Sex Difference in Depression

   1. CWChris Williamson15:00

      difference in depression? Why do men and women get it at different rates and in differing intensities?

   2. EHEd Hagen15:07

      Yeah. We don't know. Uh, so this has been a huge area of research. It's, uh, it's one of the biggest sex differences out there. Women are about twice as likely to be depressed as men. And, um, there's been all kinds of, is it different rates of adversity? Are women, um, experiencing adversity at higher rates than men? Are they somehow more vulnerable, uh, to, at a given level of adversity, having these emotions trigger? Um, and there's some support for all these ideas. One ide- one factor that we highlight that I think is really, it's very well established empirically, um, but it's, it's not really part of the, the national conversation about depression, and that is that depression is really intertwined with social conflict. Um, that there's a lot of anger involved, typically. And you think about it, if your, you know, partner leaves you, uh, you're gonna be sad, but you may also be angry. And of course, that person is leaving you probably 'cause there's some conflict between you in your relationship. Um, and, or if you get fired from your job, again, that suggests social conflict. Or you're having some kind of family situation, social conflict. And so the evidence for this is really overwhelming, that social conflict and anger are deeply intertwined with depression in many, many cases. And so that's kind of our, uh, the angle of my research group is taking on depression, is really looking at this aspect of conflict, because that's an area where evolutionary thinking, where evolutionary theorists have pretty much spent, um, ever since Darwin, conflict and the struggle for existence has been part of evolutionary theory from the beginning. And it's really striking how important a theme that is in depression. So, how might that explain the sex difference? Well, one way that we all deal with conflict, often not just as humans, but, uh, across the animal kingdom, is physical aggression. Um, and so when there's, uh, conflict between males, there's physical aggression, or male, uh, female. Intersexual conflict often involves male coercion. So, the way that many, many animals, including humans, um, deal with conflict is physical contests. And in physical contests, in animals and in humans, individuals who are physically stronger will often prevail in those conflicts. So, our hypothesis was that males are physically stronger than females, um, and that's actually an extremely dramatic sex difference. Um, there's almost no overlap in upper body strength between males and females. Almost all males are, um, have greater upper body strength than almost all females. And that means in many, many conflicts, uh, especially between men and women, men are gonna prevail due to that physical advantage. And that means that, um, if you're in a situation where you might be experiencing depression, um, if you can prevail due to your physical advantages, then you're not gonna get depressed. And so what we did to test this idea is we have a huge, uh, nationally representative database of upper body strength.... as well as, uh, depression levels, and our hypothesis was that the sex difference in depression is really a strength difference, not a sex difference. And so what we found is that when we controlled for upper body strength, the sex difference in depression diminished and actually went away in, in some of our analyses, suggesting that, uh, once you control for the differences in strength between the sexes, there is no longer, um, a sex difference in depression. And our, our hypothesis for that is that stronger people ... And that's exactly what we see, that stronger people are less likely to become depressed, and physically weaker people are more likely to, to be depressed, in our data.

   3. CWChris Williamson19:13

      And that presumably tracks within the sexes as well, that weaker men-

   4. EHEd Hagen19:18

      Yes, it does.

   5. CWChris Williamson19:19

      ... compared to stronger men have a greater propensity to depression.

5. 19:23 – 23:30

   Can You Become Less Depressed by Becoming Stronger?

   1. CWChris Williamson19:23

      Okay. Which direction is the arrow of causation going? Can I make myself less depressed by becoming stronger?

   2. EHEd Hagen19:32

      Yeah, we don't- (laughs) So there is a, a quite a bit of evidence that physical exercise, uh, does help with depression, but whether that is because it's increasing, um, some sense of an ability to deal with adversity, uh, we don't know. But you're, you're absolutely right. Those are the right questions to ask always with these correlational studies, which ours is as well. Um, what is the direction of causality here, or is there some third confounding variable? Now, in our study, we controlled-

   3. CWChris Williamson20:01

      Yeah.

   4. EHEd Hagen20:01

      ... for everything we could think of to control for, and we still see this, uh, dramatic effect of strength on, um, depression, this negative association, despite controlling for all kinds of things, socioeconomic status, age, hormones, uh, health status, all kinds of things. Um, it looks like there's still this very clear negative association between upper body strength and depression. But yeah, could you-

   5. CWChris Williamson20:30

      So you'd ...

   6. EHEd Hagen20:31

      ... uh, go to, hit the gym and, and, uh, get rid of that depression? I don't know, maybe. Something that we should, uh, look at in the future.

   7. CWChris Williamson20:39

      Yeah. I, I wonder what it is about strength. What was the measure of strength it used? Was it hand grip?

   8. EHEd Hagen20:45

      Hand grip, yeah. That's right.

   9. CWChris Williamson20:47

      Yeah. Okay. I wonder what it is about strength, because that's not the only measure of physical fitness, you know? We're persistence hunters ancestrally. Why is it not your VO2 max? Why is it not your, uh, level of Zone 2, uh, fitness or your lactate threshold or some other, uh, measure of fitness? 'Cause there are multiple ways that you could measure this, right? You know, cardio. Why is it not y- your, uh, flexibility, your, um, ability to get into the box splits or, um-

   10. EHEd Hagen21:20

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson21:20

       ... whether you can do a, a good lunge without getting into pain or something like that? Um, presumably, hand grip strength ... It's, it's not about the fact that the person that can grip the stone or the piece of wood the hardest has something. It's that, that is an indicator downstream for a bunch of other things.

   12. EHEd Hagen21:38

       So hand grip strength is a very good index of upper body strength, and upper body strength is a very good index of prevailing in physical fights. So we think, given the clear evidence that social conflicts are deeply intertwined with depression, um, and given the evidence that upper body strength is the, one of the best predictors of prevailing in physical aggression and physical conflicts, that this is the key index. So it's not these other aspects of health. It's not a health thing. (laughs) It's a, it's a physical fighting thing to resolve conflicts in your interest.

   13. CWChris Williamson22:17

       Wow.

   14. EHEd Hagen22:18

       So, um-

   15. CWChris Williamson22:19

       That is so interesting. MMA fighters should be the least depressed people on the planet by this logic.

   16. EHEd Hagen22:25

       (laughs) Yeah, unless they got, unless they got beaten by somebody else. But yes. (laughs) Yeah, these guys, uh, we would expect ... I mean, that's what our data show, at least. We don't, we don't obviously have, uh, in our data anyway, um, you know, fight outcomes. But we do ... It's, it's very clear that, that the folks with the greatest upper body strength are the least likely, um, to be depressed. Um, and it's not necessarily 'cause they had to get in a physical fight, but they just, when there's a social conflict, um, that conflict, at least our hypothesis is, and this is gonna require a lot of additional testing, is that they are the ones that are gonna more often than not prevail. Um, and by prevailing, um, that means that the conflict is resolved in their interest and there's no need to get depressed. Things worked out their way.

   17. CWChris Williamson23:11

       Does this get flipped on its head a little bit when we talk about people who commit suicide? Because I think I'm right in saying that women commit suicide, uh, attempt suicide, sorry, uh, at a significantly higher rate than men do. Uh, but presumably, one of the reasons why

6. 23:30 – 29:41

   Why Men Commit Suicide More Than Women

   1. CWChris Williamson23:30

      men are able to be successful, if that's the right way to put it, with their suicide attempts is that they do have this extra degree of lethality. They do have this extra amount of physical strength, which perhaps can mean they can carry through with this. What- how do you conceptualize the fact that women attempt suicide more but men are, uh, commit suicide more?

   2. EHEd Hagen23:53

      Yeah. That's definitely true in the United States. It's true in a lot of populations. It's not true in every population, but it is a pretty common pattern.

   3. CWChris Williamson24:01

      Where is it not true?

   4. EHEd Hagen24:03

      Um, I have to check to make sure I have my stats right in this, but, um, I think in China, we see really high rates of female successful suicides. Um, but I'd want to double-check that to, to be sure. But I think that's one of the, the major exceptions with the little asterisks that I have to go back and look at my notes. Um, and what most people think, and what I think seems really plausible, is that men are more likely to use lethal methods like guns.... um, and that's one of the major reasons why, uh, the suicide rate for men is much higher than for women. But you're right, the attempt rate for women is much higher. I think the key thing here is that the attempt rate for both sexes is dramatically higher than the success rate. So, for men, there's about 10 suicide attempts per completion in, let's say, young to middle-aged adults. Uh, in women it may be, especially in young women, it may be as high as 100 or more attempts per completion. So, what we argue-

   5. CWChris Williamson25:03

      You're kidding. Damn, that's insane.

   6. EHEd Hagen25:05

      ... is that really the phenomenon of interest here is the attempt, not the success, and what we are arguing is that, um, for the vast majority of suicidal behavior, the, the phenomenon of interest is, is the suicide attempt and that the sui- the successful, quote unquote, or the suicide deaths are the unintended, um, accidental consequences of making an attempt that is serious but hopefully won't actually succeed. And our argument here is similar to what I was mentioning before, that there's a signaling component to depression. You need to signal, uh, that you're in need, that you've suffered adversity. But if there's conflict, as I've emphasized, people may not believe you. Um, and so we all know situations where, for example, women are experiencing sexual harassment or sexual abuse and they're not believed. And the reason they're not believed is there's conflict. Um, do they have some incentive to lie, or, um, and that's of course what everybody immediately will say on social media, "Oh, she's just trying to manipulate the situation." So, how do you con- And it's a, it's a kind of behavior that's often private, it's, it's, you know, he said, she said. How can you convince other people that you're telling the truth? And, again, this is where evolutionary theory comes in. There's a whole area of research called credible signaling, um, because, uh, in animals, within species and between species, there's often conflicts of interest between predators and prey, between males and females, um, between two males of the same species. And yet there's a big cost of actually fighting or chasing down the prey, so there's all kinds of signaling going on in non-human animals. And biologists, uh, for a long time have wondered why are those signals honest? Why should, if there's a huge conflict of interest, uh, between the signal sender and the signal receiver, why, um, should the receivers believe the sender? Why aren't they just exaggerating, um, their qualities, if it's a mating situation, or their formidability, if it's a, uh, aggressive situation? And so there's a body of research on ways that credible signals can evolve, and one of them is that the signals have to have, um, some cost. Or more accurately, that the, the benefit of signaling has to outweigh the cost for the sender, um, but the costs of the signal have to outweigh the benefits for potential cheaters. So, cheaters can't actually send the signal 'cause they can't afford to do it. And so what we're arguing is that suicidality might be exactly one of these honest signals of need. And how it would work is, uh, if your life is going really well, you can't afford to actually do something that puts your life at risk. Um, you can't take that 1% or 10% chance of killing yourself, um, to get whatever benefit you might get from social partners because your life is already going really, really well. But if your life is not going well, if your mate has just left you, your potential fitness is really taking a huge hit. And in that case, the benefits that you might get from social partners by convincing them that you genuinely are in need might outweigh the cost of taking a 1% chance of actually killing yourself, or a 10% chance of killing yourself. So, we're arguing that suicidality is a credible signal of need in situations of adversity that can convince skeptical social partners that you're telling the truth, that you really do need their help. And what you hope is you'll, you'll engage in this kind of behavior where you put yourself at real risk of actually killing yourself, but most of the time you won't. You'll survive, and then social partners will believe, yes, that person really does need my help, and you'll get the help you need. But unfortunately, because the signal has to have those, it has to take a genuine risk of death, um, at the margins. So that, in our view, explains these, these tremendously high rates of suicide attempts to completions, uh, in both men and women. Um, and then the sex difference in those, um, may be because, uh, in our society, um, we have guns. It's an extremely efficient way, um, to kill yourself, unfortunately, and men are much more likely to use those than, than women, maybe for cultural reasons.

7. 29:41 – 35:14

   Why Natural Selection Hasn’t Made Suicide Impossible

   1. CWChris Williamson29:41

      How did natural selection create an animal with the capacity to willfully kill itself? How, how is it that suicide hasn't been selected out of the population? I don't understand how something can be adaptive, and, and on top of all of that, suicide is moderately heritable as well. Like, what, what the fuck does that mean?

   2. EHEd Hagen30:01

      Yeah (laughs) . So, let's think about the case of a young woman who's experiencing, um, sexual harassment or sexual abuse. That's enormously costly to her biological fitness. It's going to prevent her from... You know, it may physically injure her. It may infect her with a serious disease that could sterilize her. It may get her pregnant by some person who's not going to invest in her. So, it's an enormous, enormous cost to her fitness, and it needs to stop. But because of that physical formidability difference that I talked about, she may not have the ability to stop her abuser by herself. She needs help.... and yet, due to the privacy of those kinds of behaviors, um, the he said/she said situation, she may not get that help. Um, people may be skeptical. Uh, the man's, um, friends and family may back him up. And so what can she do? Uh, she can't easily physically resist him. She's not getting the soc- She may have married into his family and be physically removed from her own family, uh, in evolutionary context, or in many traditional contexts today, so she just doesn't have the social partners and backup. And yet, she's suffering a huge... It may be worth the 1% or even 10% chance of killing herself if in the 90 to 90% number of times that this kind of behavior would happen, she convinces people that she's telling the truth and that actually stops the abuse. So it's the potential benefits of convincing social partners that you really do need help that would outweigh the, uh, cost that you might actually end up killing yourself. It's that benefit that explains, in our view, at least in our theory, uh, why people are willing to take that extreme kind of action. It's a, it's a way to convince people-

   3. CWChris Williamson31:50

      Have you got any idea whether or not-

   4. EHEd Hagen31:51

      ... that you really need help.

   5. CWChris Williamson31:54

      Yes. I understand. Uh, have you got any idea about whether, ancestrally, men were more successful at suicide attempts than women?

   6. EHEd Hagen32:04

      (smacks lips)

   7. CWChris Williamson32:04

      I'm wondering whether this is, this signaling is, is the same ancestrally, and we have a, an evolutionary mismatch between the tools that men now have access to that means that they can be more successful at attempts.

   8. EHEd Hagen32:17

      I think that's a reasonable hypothesis. We have, uh, with my, um, former student and collaborator, Kristin Syme, we've combed through

   9. NANarrator32:25

      Yeah.

   10. EHEd Hagen32:25

       ... and Zach Garfield, we've combed through the ethnographic record on suicidal behaviors. Now, these are modern groups, but modern groups many of whom are living in ways that are similar to the way we think were our ancestors lived, traditional societies, hunter-gatherer societies. Um, and we've scoured the ethnographic record for every example of suicidal behavior. And these records are not systematic, so they don't allow us to estimate rates of lethal versus non-lethal, uh, behavior or anything like that. Um, what they do do is what we, we do see in, in some of these societies that almost all of the cases are female. In other cases, almost all of the, the cases are male. Um, in others, it's kind of a mix. So we can't... Uh, if men ancestrally actually, uh, took riskier kinds of sui- you know, engaged in riskier kinds of suicidal behavior that would've led to their deaths. Um, that's, uh, just something that I think we can't see in the, the ethnographic record. Um, but we do see all of the other things that our theory would predict. We see social conflict. We see adversity. We see that if you survive, uh, you do get help, um, in most cases. You do get social benefits. Often, somebody's being abused by their parent and they, um, attempt suicide, and then the whole village realizes and they, they start pressuring the family to, to treat this person better. Um, or they engage in a, a suicide attempt and they get their mate, uh, to return, somebody who had left them comes back. Um, or they get their husband to leave hi- leave his, you know, concubine or mistress and come back to the family. So it's all the kinds of things, um, that we see today that trigger suicide attempts, uh, we see in the ethnographic record. And we also see that these often, uh, if the person does survive, they do generate benefits. But yeah, the s- the sex difference is not something we can address with the data that we have access to. Maybe somebody will... More clever than I am will figure out a way to do it, but I haven't figured out any way to do it. Maybe by studying some of the few hunter-gatherer societies and small-scale societies that exists today, if we studied them more systematically for suicidal behaviors, we might be able to begin to address that question. The problem is it's a, it's an incredibly stigmatized behavior, and so it's incredibly difficult to s- to study this. And we have tried. Kristin, uh, has made several efforts to try and collect these data, and just the r- the resistance of the community to, to actually talk about this stuff is, um... We haven't been able to overcome that, that challenge yet.

   11. CWChris Williamson35:13

       One of the other

8. 35:14 – 41:06

   Age as a Factor in Suicide Statistics

   1. CWChris Williamson35:14

      things that I've been considering, sex difference is one of them, but age as well is another one. What can we learn from the onset of suicide in relation to age?

   2. EHEd Hagen35:25

      So what we see is that both depression and suicide begin to really onset in kind of middle adolescence to early adulthood. And that's when they really peak, the suicidal behaviors. Um, and then they gradually decline with age. Um, we see the successful suicide rate, um, actually increasing with age. But it's always much, much lower than the suicide, suicidal behaviors, um, until you get up to about age 70 or so. Um, and what's striking to us is that these behaviors are onsetting as people are transitioning from the juvenile phase to the adult reproductive phase of life. And of course, in the juvenile phase, typically most of us, um, have protection from our family and our parents. Uh, we're not engaged in inter or intra-se- you know, intrasexual mating competition. We're not competing for mates. We're not competing for resources. And when we see these behaviors onset is right when we're transitioning from that juvenile phase when we aren't engaged in all these kinds of competition, to the adult reproductive phase when intent, uh, competition can become very, very intense, so mating competition, resource competition. So our hypothesis for the onset of depression and suicidality...... in adolescence is that this is when individuals are transitioning to, um, mating competition and resource competition. And they kind of peak in early adulthood when that competition is probably most intense, and then it seems to gradually decrease over the lifespan, um, as mating competition, uh, is probably decreasing as well.

   3. CWChris Williamson37:10

      Isn't the current highest risk group in the US for suicide men aged 40 to 45, or something like that? I think white- white men are some huge percentage-

   4. EHEd Hagen37:22

      So the risk of- the risk... yeah. The risk of completions goes up with age. But the- the- the risk, the- the frequency of suicidal behaviors is going down. Um, so you've got this kind of, uh, suicidal behavior's really just spiking incredibly in adolescence or in early adulthood, um, into your sort of mid-20s or so, um, and actual suicide deaths, very, very low. And then the suicidal behavior begins to decrease as you go into middle age and older age, but the actual, uh, rates of actual completions are going, are climbing. Um, but they're still well below-

   5. CWChris Williamson38:03

      And climbing but- but climbing presumably at a rate... i- i- if the number of attempts is lower, but the an- percentage of successes is higher, given the fact that we have, I think, it's five times more men in middle age commit suicide successfully than girls who are adolescents, given the fact that we have a mental health crisis around young girls at the moment in the US, whatever it is, 60% of, uh, teenage girls in America say that they have persistent feelings of hopelessness and doom, or something like that, um, they, their ability to be successful in this regard has to more than compensate for the fact that you have significantly lower re- uh, numbers of attempts.

   6. EHEd Hagen38:49

      That's right. And so we don't have a great explanation for that yet, but what we look... when we look at just mortality rates, uh, from any kind of cause, they kind of follow the same kind of pattern. And so something about, um... so if you actually fit the curves, they're very, very similar. So it... could it be... and we- we really don't know, um, so is it the case that maybe older individuals have to engage in costlier signals to convince folks, um, that they need help, for some reason, so they're- they're engaging in riskier behaviors? But also, as we get older, we're more vulnerable to dying from any kind of cause, and so it might be the case, um, that it's kind of a combination of e- of engaging in- in maybe costlier signals, if you will, riskier kinds of behaviors, uh, to actually get that signal across to other people, but also being, uh, more physically vulnerable to, uh, having something going wrong, um, and the doctor's not able-

   7. CWChris Williamson39:51

      Fascinating. Yeah, fascinating.

   8. EHEd Hagen39:52

      ... to save you. Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson39:54

      So, so interesting. Is there a link between suicide and intelligence?

   10. EHEd Hagen40:03

       So intelligence is not... so I- I look at intelligence from, um, you know, humans compared to all other (laughs) species, uh, and we've obviously got these huge brains, but I don't really... I've never really looked at, uh, variation intelligence within species. So I can't say too much. It's not a variable that we have a very good... uh, sort of the proxy for intelligence in- in most studies, uh, of evolution is- is kind of species level brain size. Uh, so if we look at, you know, us versus chimps and other apes and other primates and other mammals, um, there's lots of good work in that area. But we d- when we try and think about what does it mean for differences in intelligence within species, um, it's not an area that I'm an expert in, but I haven't really seen any great, uh, operationalization or evolutionary rationale for, uh, within species variation, so I can't really answer your question on that one, unfortunately.

9. 41:06 – 47:31

   The Cause of Post-Partum Depression

   1. CWChris Williamson41:06

      One other kind of weird, to me at least, phenomenon is postpartum depression, so women who have given birth, and then after that, they have this onset of depression. Have you looked at that through an evolutionary lens? Could you give some potential adaptive explanations for that?

   2. EHEd Hagen41:25

      Yeah. So that's actually was my dissertation research, and that's, uh, was kind of entry point into this whole area. And from an evolutionary perspective, on the one hand, postpartum depression is really odd. You've just had reproductive success. That- (laughs) that is, you know, as we learn from day one, is the whole, uh, how our whole physiology and psychology is organized to reproduce, and so you've now successfully reproduced. Um, you, in most cases, have a nice healthy baby. Um, you are a mom in one of the richest countries that has ever existed. Uh, you have more resources, um, than anybody in the past could, uh, ever imagine. Uh, your baby is very likely... you know, the- the probability that it's gonna die from an infectious disease is vanishingly small these days, at least if you are lucky enough to live in a high income region. Uh, so what the heck is going on? Uh, you are feeling miserable. You don't love your baby. Um, you may not be able to eat. You may not be able to care for your other children. Um, it seems like, uh, just the most incredibly paradoxical kind of experience you could imagine. Um, and so what I started to do is look into what are the circumstances that seem to be associated with postpartum depression.... and the big one is lack of social support, lack of social support from your husband, lack of social support from your family. And we know that we humans are cooperative breeders. We really, you know, it takes a village. Um, we never by ourselves. We were always reproducing in family units where husbands and siblings and older children and grandparents, um, were helping us. And we were hanging out with the other moms and the other parents, and we were helping them take care of their kids, and they were helping us take care of our kids. And if you didn't have that, uh, there was no way that you were going to be successful in raising that kid ancestrally. And what I found, um, and the evidence for this is overwhelming, is that many, not all cases, but many, many, many cases of postpartum depression are occurring in contexts where mothers feel they don't have social support, often from the husband or maybe from their other family members. And that would have been a cue ancestrally, um, that this child isn't going to make it. And, um, so what I've argued is it's exactly this kind of adversity where we should be experiencing psychic pain. We should really start thinking, "What is wrong? Why am I not getting the soc- social support I need to help raise this kid? Um, and what can I do about it?Uh, can I get that social support somehow? Uh, can I juggle responsibilities? Um, and, um, if I can't, then I really should just stop caring for this kid." I, uh, and we know in, um, in kinds of populations that approximate our ancestral past, uh, if you didn't have the resources, um, you might just not take care of that kid to begin with. And we often see very high infanticide rates in situations where there is extreme, uh, extremely limited access to resources. But you shouldn't commit infanticide immediately. Uh, you should start signaling that you are genuinely in need and you really can't raise this kid in the situ- in the circumstances, uh, the way they are. Something's got to change. And so I'm arguing that a lot of the, uh, postpartum depression symptoms are a form of psychic pain. You're not getting what you need. And, and we also see it when the kid is unhealthy, if it's, if it's, if there's pregnancy problems, um, if there's health problems in the child, if the mother has health problems, um, these kinds of things are also strongly associated and probably causes of postpartum depression. Um, and then you should signal, and you should use one of these costly signals that is going to convince people, uh, that you're not just trying to manipulate them and get more, uh, help, uh, than you deserve, that you really are in need and you really do need extra help, or you're gonna stop taking care of this kid. And that kid is not just your kid, it's your husband's kid, it's your grandparents' grandkid, it's your sibling's niece or nephew. And biologically, um, if you don't take care of that kid, it's going to have a negative impact on their fitness. So they have an incentive, if you really are in need, uh, to step in, uh, and help you get what you need to- to successfully raise the child.

   3. CWChris Williamson46:14

      Seeing s- suicidality and depression through a lens of signaling, like that there is something going on, please give help. Uh, having especially suicide attempts be something which is a very costly signal to try and do it if you're just fucking about and you just want some attention, but you don't actually feel that bad is, uh, uh, uh, you- you're flying pretty c- close to the wire. Um, I love the idea of in older age, it being a combination of perhaps the signal needs to be more reliable, i.e. more costly, which means that you fly closer to the wire of mortality with your signal, and the fact that maybe your physiology is just a little bit more fragile in some way or a little bit more vulnerable to this. I don't know if I would think that a 45-year-old man would be more vulnerable than a 16-year-old girl. Um, they both seem... I don't know. I... There's some pretty robust 45-year-old guys out there. I, I don't know. That- that- that's interesting to me. Um, but I- I- I just... Uh, this conception is very, very, uh, fascinating, and I think hopefully should help people to feel, yeah, a little bit less sort of personally cursed. One of the other

10. 47:31 – 53:38

    Is Evolutionary Psychology Racist?

    1. CWChris Williamson47:31

       topics that I saw you get into on Twitter recently was a discussion about whether or not race science is deeply embedded in evolutionary psychology. Where did this come from? Is it true that race science is a foundational part of evolutionary psychology? Is evolutionary psychology racist?

    2. EHEd Hagen47:53

       Yeah. I would argue it's- it's probably the least, uh, racist discipline, um, in the social sciences, uh, because the social sciences for decades have really foregrounded race as this fundamental aspect of our psychology, um, that we code everyone by race, uh, immediately. And there's quite a bit of evidence that people do encode, you know, as soon as you see somebody that one of the first things you're gonna think of is that a Black guy or a white guy or a, you know, Mexican or Asian. Uh, you're gonna code race really quick. Uh, it's going to influence all kinds of decisions and behaviors. Um, and that's been part of, you know, non-evolutionary social science forever. So, uh, what evolutionary psychology, um, has proposed is that we humans evolved in Africa. And if we go back two, two and a half million years ago, our brains were about the size of chimp brains, about one-third of, um, the human size that we have today. So 400...... cubic centimeters versus about 12 to 1,300 cubic centimeters. So it's tripling over that two million years, and that all occurred in Africa. And then very, very, very recently, modern humans with modern human-sized brains and modern behaviors and modern capabilities, um, expanded out of Africa and colonized the rest of the world. So all of us, uh, just a few minutes ago in evolutionary time were big-brained modern humans, uh, in Africa. And what we argue is that that massive brain expansion, we evolved a- our unique human cognitive abilities that are shared by everybody today because we all came from that same population of, of Africans, um, just, um, a few tens of thousands of years ago. So, uh, as you may notice here, there's no race anywhere in that conception. And the "races," quote unquote, um, come about because, um, in that very, very recent expansion of modern humans out of Africa, of course you're colonizing Asia and Europe and the Americas. And, um, in that relatively short timeframe, some very, very minor physical differences have evolved. Skin color. Um, you're actually really har- You can put almost all of the differences on, you know, a little infographic there's so few of them. Um, there are a few things where there's really strong selection pressures like solar radiation, um, or pathogens or diet, or if you're at high altitude, um, oxygen levels, or things like malaria resistance. But they're very, very, very, very minor in the scheme of things, and what we argue is in that very narrow sliver of time, there just wasn't time for much of any, um, evolution of, of complex psychological differences. Any differences that might exist between populations would be about as significant as having a little bit more versus a little bit less, um, melanin in your, uh, melanocytes, so your skin cells. Um, and so that's been the perspective of, of evolutionary psychology for, uh, since its inception. However, there is a real problem. I don't want to diminish this. We do have folks who have kind of latched onto the evolutionary psychology label, um, who, uh, are very interested in the possibility that just as there are physiological population differences, there might be psychological population differences. Um, and that's never been part of mainstream evolutionary psychology, but some folks are really interested in that. Um, it's obviously a hugely controversial topic. Um, some of the evolutionary psychology journals have accepted papers that have been, uh, purporting to provide evidence for that. Those papers have relied on a, uh, national IQ database that is extremely problematic, um, and has really no claim to have accurate numbers on nation-level IQ, uh, for many, many nations. Getting basically a nation, boiling a whole nation down to a single number, uh, we can do it, but it's, it takes, y- you know, it literally might take a million dollars to do it right. Um, and that kind of money was not put into this research, I can tell you that. Uh, and that'd be for one nation. To get that one accurate number for that one nation on any one number that you wanted, uh, is a very, very expensive thing to do. Um, and this data set doesn't do that at all. So yes, there is a problem now, uh, that some evolutionary psychology journals are publishing some very, uh, suspect papers, uh, promoting the idea that there are population differences in intelligence. Um, and that's going to take some work to deal with that, to begin to, um, uh, counter some of those narratives, uh, with much better research, um, and much better reviewing. Um, I think there's quite a bit of evidence that the quality of reviews that are going on are subpar. So we're working on that. Um, is it part of the, what has inspired, uh, literally hundreds of, uh, social scientists to adopt evolutionary ideas? No. Um, it's really not been the inspiration. The inspiration has been this kind of vision of a, a psychic unity of mankind, that, that we all have a, a common repertoire of psychological mechanisms, um, that unite us.

11. 53:38 – 56:28

    Critiques of Evolutionary Psychology

    1. CWChris Williamson53:38

       What do you say to the people that accuse evolutionary psychology of being just so stories?

    2. EHEd Hagen53:43

       Well, um, you could say, I could say I'm a fan of just so stories. The more the better. Uh, we all, uh, you know, all science starts off with a just so story, um, that we have some, we see some phenomenon in nature that we find interesting and we come up with a story about it, what explains that phenomenon. Um, and so we evolutionary psychologists are as liable to do that as everybody else and all the other scientists in all the other sciences and all the other disciplines. Uh, but then you got to test it. And just, um, as every scientist in every other discipline does, we begin to design experiments to test these ideas. And some of them pan out, and some don't. Um, so yeah. We, we love our, our just so stories, but we also love, uh, science, um, and the scientific method and empirical research. And if you look at any evolutionary psychologist, they have a very robust empirical research program to test their ideas. And some of them have panned out and some haven't. I'll give you one that, that didn't pan out, or doesn't seem to. Uh, this debate is still there. But, um, there's a lot of, there were a lot of very interesting I thought just so stories that, uh, mating preferences might, for women, might vary across the menstrual cycle.... and there was some preliminary empirical evidence in favor of that, but much bigger, uh, and more controlled studies, um, have really failed to find that mating preferences change across the menstrual cycle. So that's an example. It was a great theory. Uh, it was one that suggested empirical tests. Um, it was amenable to empirical testing. Those empirical tests have been done and have not found support for the theory, and that's how science works. Um, it's hard to figure out how the world works. (laughs) Uh, so we're gonna have many, many just stories, just-so stories that just, uh, don't pan out, and, but tha- h- we have to be okay with that. Um, that's the only way we're gonna make progress. If we rule out, uh, telling stories, then science dies.

    3. CWChris Williamson55:42

       It's such a shift that the, uh, it's such a shame that the ovulatory shift hypothesis didn't end up being true because it's just so interesting. There was so much-

    4. EHEd Hagen55:50

       Yeah, and maybe it will.

    5. CWChris Williamson55:51

       ... cool-

    6. EHEd Hagen55:51

       You know, it is very cool, uh, d- but maybe there'll be some new twist on it. Um, I don't know that we've heard the last word, uh, but yeah, right now, I, I don't like-

    7. CWChris Williamson55:59

       Oh, it's not dead yet.

    8. EHEd Hagen56:00

       ... trying to introduce your classes. Yeah, it may not be dead yet. Uh, who knows? Um, who knows? Uh, there may be some new twist on it. Um, we'll see. Uh, but yeah, for right now, uh, it's not looking good.

    9. CWChris Williamson56:15

       One of the other things that you've studied is music and ancestrally, evolutionarily, the role that music and dance and other, uh, actions had. Uh, how does that fit into

12. 56:28 – 1:02:50

    Music’s Role in Evolution

    1. CWChris Williamson56:28

       anything resembling an evolutionary or adaptive story to, for humans?

    2. EHEd Hagen56:34

       Yeah. So my career, I thought, when I first was introduced to evolutionary psychology, I thought, "Well, if this is right, it should be able to answer questions that nobody's been able to answer, be, really make some progress on some of the big mysteries, things like depression and suicide." And music is one of those big mysteries that Darwin himself puzzled over. Um, it seems if we look at, you know, food and mating, these are all behaviors that have clear evolutionary utility, um, and, uh, you look at something like music, and it's just what is the, what could be the utility with that kind of behavior? There's just, it's not at all obvious. Um, so if, if evolutionary approaches are gonna prove their worth, they should be able to g- begin to give us insights, and it, and it won't be any surprise based on everything that, that I've said that I kind of take a signaling approach here and a credible signaling approach because a lot of the strange things that we see in animals end up being signals of some sort, um, uh, and often costly or, uh, the kinds of signals that you can't fake. And so, um, when I began thinking about, um, music and what the heck, uh, is going on there, I thought, "Well, what's, what's really distinctive about it?" And there are, there are, of course, many distinctive features when we compare it to language or other kinds of auditory signals, things that we know are signals. Uh, but the thing I decided to tackle was, um, the joint performances that, and they're incredibly well-synchronized. In fact, the w- way I was driving to work one day, um, as a grad student and an old song came on the radio that I hadn't heard in, you know, since my high school days, and I was able to immediately sing along with the song in perfect synchrony. The lyrics just came back effortlessly. And if this had been a, you know, a verbal account and, you know, linguistic, just a normal, I would never, I wouldn't be able to remember anything. Uh, and yet I could remember this thing, and not only remember it, but just engage with precise synchrony. And so, that's what really fascinated me, that precise synchronization is this key element of music. It's not the only thing, obviously, but it's really critical to the whole experience. And I thought, "What could be the, the function of precise synchronization and this musical memory?" I thought, "You know, the only way I could remember this is if I had a specialized psychological adaptation to, to remember music." And I thought that precise synchrony, uh, could be a signal of coalition quality, uh, that the only way that you can achieve that precise synchrony is with a lot of practice. Uh, it's really hard to learn a song and get everything synchronized. And so when we learn music, uh, we've gotta practice to master our instruments, and then we practice songs together. And so, uh, receivers, if they, um, it might take, and in fact, when I began to look in the ethnographic record, sure enough, folks would be spending weeks and months practicing songs and dances for an upcoming feast. Uh, but they're gonna give that song. They're gonna present it in just a few minutes or maybe an hour, in a very short amount of time. So it would allow observers to observe something that would be very, very difficult to assess otherwise. How much do these people, how willing are they to cooperate with each other? How long have they known each other? Um, are they a really highly coordinated coalition? Um, and if you observe a group of musicians and dancers, you can tell very, very quickly whether or not they, um, have been practicing together for a long time or not. And that would've been critical in our evolution because humans are quite unique in that we cooperate not just at the individual level, but at the group level. Groups cooperate with other groups, so groups really need to assess the coalition quality of the folks that they made ally with 'cause they may depend on them for their lives in military conflicts and battles, or if they're sharing food. Those guys better be good hunters. Um, so the hypothesis is that these joint musical performances may signal to potential allies that, yeah, we are a really high-quality coalition, and you guys should ally with us.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:00:56

       That would explain-

    4. EHEd Hagen1:00:57

       So that's the idea. That's my general story.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:00:57

       ... why I can remember songs from 14, uh, 15, 16 years ago, and yeah, I, I-You're totally right. I can't remember, I can barely remember anything from my entire university degree, uh, but if you play me any emo slash pop-punk song from 2003 to 2009, I can recite it pitch perfect. I can tell you what the lyrics were because I looked up the lyrics online and then went back and-

    6. EHEd Hagen1:01:23

       (laughs)

    7. CWChris Williamson1:01:23

       ... updated my programming around that word that sounded like another word. And I used to go, "Uh-uh," instead of actually saying what the word was.

    8. EHEd Hagen1:01:30

       Right.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:01:30

       Uh, yeah, I- I- It's very interesting that- that we almost have this purpose-built circuitry for it. Is... What's the reason that music... Uh, have you considered a reason for why music makes us feel good, or why it can create a psychological state change within us?

    10. EHEd Hagen1:01:49

        Yeah, I- I don't have a- any... I think it would just be the kind of obvious thing, that anything that we do that increases our biological fitness, we're going to probably feel good, uh, to encourage us to do that thing. And anything that decreases our (laughs) biological fitness is gonna probably make us feel bad. So, uh- uh, practicing music and... You know, when I was in the jazz band in high school, nothing was more fun than just, um, you know, playing gigs, um, and having people kind of rock out or dance to the thing. It just was this in- you know, just infusion of good feelings. Um, and the argument would be because you're doing things that actually are going to increase your fitness. You are, uh, learning how to send a signal that you've got a really strong coalition and, um, other folks would benefit by cooperating with you instead of those guys in the other valley. So yeah, it's- it's in our fitness to- to master these things and do well at them, and we feel good when we- when we do that.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:02:48

        Ed Hagan, ladies and gentlemen. If people want

13. 1:02:50 – 1:03:27

    Where to Find Ed

    1. CWChris Williamson1:02:50

       to keep up to date with the stuff that you do online, where should they go?

    2. EHEd Hagen1:02:54

       Uh, just Google me. Google Ed Hagan and you'll, uh, find me real quick on Google. You'll find my faculty page and, um, also @EdHagan on Twitter, uh, if you wanna (laughs) see me rant, uh, about evolutionary Just So stories that I love. (laughs)

    3. CWChris Williamson1:03:07

       I do. I do indeed. Ed, I really appreciate you. Thank you for today.

    4. EHEd Hagen1:03:11

       Thanks for having me on.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:03:13

       What's happening, people? Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe. Peace.

Episode duration: 1:03:27