The Extreme Crisis of Young Women - Freya India

1. 0:00 – 0:56

   The One-Star Controversy Around Freya’s Book

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      Why has your book got one star-

   2. FIFreya India0:02

      [laughs]

   3. CWChris Williamson0:02

      ... on Goodreads?

   4. FIFreya India0:04

      Because I'm being attacked, um, by [laughs] normie liberal women, I think. Um, so we sent out some galleys, some free copies to just avid Goodreads readers and women who are not in our sort of sphere thinking about things that we are. And I think also because the book looks like an anti-capitalist Marxist book [laughs] , there's no indication that I would sort of be skeptical of the mental health industry or, um, talk about cultural trends like family breakdown. And so a lot of the reviews are women warning each other that this is not what you expect, and you might be hit with a viewpoint you disagree with. Um, and so it's a lot of girls who've got through the first chapter, and then I've said something, like, about trans, and they've just given up and warned each other not to carry on.

   5. CWChris Williamson0:55

      You're horrendous.

2. 0:56 – 2:01

   How Freya Entered the Debate on Women and Girls

   1. FIFreya India0:56

      Yeah, basically.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:56

      When did you start writing about women and girls?

   3. FIFreya India1:00

      I started, um, 2021, so it's been a long time. Um, and it was mostly because I felt anxious, and I wanted to figure out what was going on, and so I was trying to map it all out, and it's taken me sort of five, six years to finally finish the book. So it's, it's not only research that I've done, but it's basically years of my life. I've carried it through different phases and seasons of my life, and this is where I've ended up.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:28

      I was talking to William Costelloe. You and him wrote, uh, an article together in Quillette.

   5. FIFreya India1:32

      Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:32

      And I think you were in still, you were still in sixth form college.

   7. FIFreya India1:35

      It was so long ago. Yeah, yeah. Um, so I've been writing for a really long time, but part of the criticism against me is that I just picked a topic, and I'm using it to sort of funnel in my right-wing agenda.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:49

      Mm-hmm.

   9. FIFreya India1:49

      So it will be, "Freya just noticed that the mental health crisis was happening, and she's using that to spread her sort of fascist [laughs] -"

   10. CWChris Williamson1:56

       Okay

   11. FIFreya India1:57

       ... ideas."

   12. CWChris Williamson1:57

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   13. FIFreya India1:57

       Um-

   14. CWChris Williamson1:58

       Well, you're in good company here-

   15. FIFreya India1:58

       Yeah

   16. CWChris Williamson1:58

       ... 'cause I'm a fascist as well, apparently.

   17. FIFreya India2:00

       Oh, nice. [laughs]

3. 2:01 – 8:30

   Why Women’s Advocates Are Under Fire

   1. CWChris Williamson2:01

      Uh, we often hear about a lost generation of young men-

   2. FIFreya India2:04

      Mm-hmm

   3. CWChris Williamson2:04

      ... but research shows that young women are more pessimistic across the board. They are less likely to say they feel happy, ambitious, excited, or fulfilled and are more pessimistic about the prospect of being happy for their life generally.

   4. FIFreya India2:18

      Yes.

   5. CWChris Williamson2:18

      The fuck's going on?

   6. FIFreya India2:20

      So is this the New Statesman piece? Yeah. So there was this huge New Statesman piece, Angry Young Women, which made me an angry young woman when I read it. [laughs]

   7. CWChris Williamson2:27

      [laughs] Why did you get pissy about the New Statesman piece?

   8. FIFreya India2:30

      Because they reached a lot of conclusions that a lot of conservative women, conservative people have just been saying for a very long time. So as you said, they were saying that young women feel pessimistic, that they have more negative views that, of men than men have of them, and all we've heard about for the last few years is the manosphere and how men are getting radicalized. And ultimately, the, the argument in their piece was that women are getting radicalized by social media, and particularly by femisphere influencers, so women warning them off other men and getting radical-

   9. CWChris Williamson3:07

      All of the women reading your book.

   10. FIFreya India3:08

       Yeah, basically. [laughs] And, um-

   11. CWChris Williamson3:10

       Unhappily.

   12. FIFreya India3:11

       Yeah. So they, they came to the same observations as me and a lot of other people, but then after my book tour in the UK, I've had to put up with constant accusations of being misogynist, being far-right conservative for saying something is happening to liberal young women. They're not happy. Something is happening in their relationships. Um, they don't, they feel hopeless about the future. And even in the New Statesman piece, they found that more privileged women felt even more pessimistic. And these are things that I've been trying to argue very carefully and, I hope, with some compassion, but I've had to put up with constant smears and backlash. And so it's just, it was very interesting to me that the New Statesman can reach the same conclusions-

   13. CWChris Williamson3:54

       Hmm

   14. FIFreya India3:54

       ... and it's sort of celebrated and welcomed.

   15. CWChris Williamson3:56

       I once spoke to Douglas Murray about this, and I said, um, "Have you ever used your gay privilege card?" And he said, "Well, on other gay men, of course."

   16. FIFreya India4:05

       [laughs]

   17. CWChris Williamson4:05

       Uh, I said, "Well, you, you know what I mean."

   18. FIFreya India4:09

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson4:09

       You know, you, you're, you're from a particular protected group. Have you ever been able to cash in your status at some point?

   20. FIFreya India4:16

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson4:17

       And he said, "Well, the problem is that I'm white and conservative, which makes me essentially an honorary straight guy."

   22. FIFreya India4:23

       Yes.

   23. CWChris Williamson4:24

       Like, he, white conservative is the straight of the gay community.

   24. FIFreya India4:28

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson4:28

       And you being white, British-

   26. FIFreya India4:32

       Yes

   27. CWChris Williamson4:32

       ... and right-leaning-

   28. FIFreya India4:34

       Mm-hmm

   29. CWChris Williamson4:34

       ... means that you're essentially, y- your, uh, female privilege is totally dismissed. You don't have-

   30. FIFreya India4:40

       Yeah
4. 8:30 – 10:48

   What Do Women Want in 2026?

   1. CWChris Williamson8:30

      What do you think women actually want in 2026?

   2. FIFreya India8:34

      Well, this is sort of the argument in my book is I think women do have unmet needs. I think the reason that more privileged women were more pessimistic in that piece was that they have everything they want and basically nothing they need. So all of the foundations and anchors that help women and people in general feel stable have basically been eroded, and that's the argument in my book. That we have had our families break down. We've, we don't know our neighbors. We don't have communities. We are less religious. We're less religious than young men even. So we don't have any of these anchors, and that is why I think when the social media platforms came in, they really destroyed young women because they offered substitutes and simulations of these things that we didn't have in the first place.

   3. CWChris Williamson9:25

      And that's why you think that women were more susceptible to the impact of social media?

   4. FIFreya India9:31

      Yeah, in a way, and I think social media plays on girls' specific personality traits and vices.

   5. CWChris Williamson9:39

      Mm.

   6. FIFreya India9:40

      Um, so it was very addictive, but the reason it's so bad is because we didn't have any grounding. Because if you look at the mental health crisis, um, women who grew up in conservative and religious households, young girls are doing way better, and they seem to have had sort, some sort of protective mechanism from that, which is actually why I became interested in it, in it in the first place. It's not that I was conservative or religious. So part of the argument now is that I'm some sort of fundamentalist [laughs] Christian who's pushing this worldview. But it's, I generally, I was looking at the data and thinking there is a pattern here that liberal women s- who've raised in liberal households seem to be rootless. They seem to not have anything to hold onto.

   7. CWChris Williamson10:26

      Hmm.

   8. FIFreya India10:27

      And that's why they are actually more addicted to social media. So liberal teen girls, it's about 31% say they use it for more than five hours a day, and it's much higher than other groups. And so there is something specifically going on there with liberal girls and, and having a liberal upbringing that's not happening with conservatives.

5. 10:48 – 12:23

   Are Women Getting What They Want But Not What They Need?

   1. CWChris Williamson10:48

      You said they're getting what they want, but not what they need.

   2. FIFreya India10:52

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson10:52

      What is it you think that they think they want, and what is it you think they need?

   4. FIFreya India10:57

      Well, I think... So the argument of the book is that women are becoming something more like products rather than people. And so I think they're being encouraged to see their lives as the ultimate goal is to optimize yourself for the market. The ultimate goal is not to have a collection of human experiences, and I think this explains a lot of things. So it explains what young women value and what they don't value. So for example, not having children, ha- having more of an aversion to having children someday than young men. I think that's because they think of themselves as a product, not as a human. And so people say things like, "Oh, that's the most human experience. Why would you not want to do that?" But if your goal is to be a perfect, pristine product, then why would you take the risk of motherhood when it could destroy your body? It's unpredictable. It's dangerous. It's scary. It's not really something you can display quickly. You know, it's like a long-term-

   5. CWChris Williamson11:59

      Yeah

   6. FIFreya India11:59

      ... satisfaction. And so I think we often view it from the wrong frame. We're thinking about women, previous generations of women, but I think this generation of women is very different, and their values are very different.And so my argument in the book is that you're being encouraged to focus on all the wrong wants rather than what you actually need.

   7. CWChris Williamson12:17

      Mm-hmm.

   8. FIFreya India12:17

      Which I would argue is what all humans need, basic human connection, dependence on other people.

6. 12:23 – 15:22

   Settle Down or Stay Single: The Modern Dilemma

   1. CWChris Williamson12:23

      Do you think there's a pressure for women to settle down and have children?

   2. FIFreya India12:27

      Um, I've actually argued that it's the opposite, and in my experience it's been the opposite, which is that-- So Emma Watson was talking about this recently on a podcast, and she was saying that it's a violence and a cruelty against young women, th- this pressure to settle down, and that it's overwhelming and that she feels in such a rush to do it, and I just couldn't relate to that at all, and I don't-- Thinking about the women in my life, I don't think that is what's happening. I think for the women I'm talking about, there's much more pressure to stay single, to stay unattached, to stay available. And I think what Emma is really describing when she talks about the rush and the hurry is she feels pressure to cram in all her self-actualization before she meets someone. So in the podcast she's talking about healing herself and fixing her mental health and becoming the best version of herself and becoming whole and healed and enlightened, and I think that's a core message that young women are growing up with, which is that you need to be perfect before you take on a responsibility or commit to someone. And so I don't think there's pressure to settle down. I think there's pressure to be perfect before you meet someone, which often is pressure to stay single.

   3. CWChris Williamson13:44

      And that's because your self-brand, your product online, that needs to be-- You basically need to exit the business of your public profile because-

   4. FIFreya India13:55

      Yeah

   5. CWChris Williamson13:55

      ... post-motherhood you're not going to be able to go to brunch with the girls or wear cute heels in the same-

   6. FIFreya India13:59

      Mm-hmm

   7. CWChris Williamson13:59

      ... sort of a way, and you're not gonna be flexing changing nappies on your timeline.

   8. FIFreya India14:03

      Yeah, it's, it's the end of something. Um-

   9. CWChris Williamson14:06

      It's the end of the thing that is most valued by other people in the community that you are engaging with most, which is the internet.

   10. FIFreya India14:15

       Yeah. And part of the reason I wanted to write the book is to give people a sense of young women's childhood to how long they've been marketing themselves as a product and thinking of themselves in this way, and I think that's really hard to just switch. And so I talk about girls being on Instagram at ten or 11, that every experience they have they feel they have to document, market, perform for other people.

   11. CWChris Williamson14:39

       Mm.

   12. FIFreya India14:39

       Everything is done in anticipation of an audience. And then you're asking them to do things that are scary and have a quiet satisfaction and where they would have to give up some part of themselves. And I include myself in this. You know, I was on Instagram at 11, and for me to get off Instagram and then not have the constant nagging feeling of, "I need to take a picture, I need to document this, I need to prove to people that I exist"-

   13. CWChris Williamson15:06

       Mm

   14. FIFreya India15:06

       ... it was so hard to switch my mindset, even though I wasn't even that addicted. And so I think people really underestimate what these platforms are doing to not just how young women see themselves, but how they treat other people and what they actually value

7. 15:22 – 17:56

   Should Social Media Be Banned for Young People?

   1. FIFreya India15:22

      in their life.

   2. CWChris Williamson15:23

      Parents are registering their kids' handles on Instagram before they're born.

   3. FIFreya India15:27

      Yes. That's become part of like child content, so you'll plan your baby shower, you'll plan pack your hospital bag on YouTube, you'll do everything, and then you'll select your child's username. Do you know nearly a quarter of five to seven-year-olds in the UK have a smartphone?

   4. CWChris Williamson15:49

      Quarter of five to seven-year-olds in the UK have got a smartphone?

   5. FIFreya India15:52

      Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson15:53

      So they can see the internet?

   7. FIFreya India15:55

      Yeah, and I think it's thirty-eight percent are already on social media.

   8. CWChris Williamson16:00

      How old do you have to be to register for Instagram?

   9. FIFreya India16:03

      Um, I think 13, but the, I don't think there's any proper-- You just put a birthday in.

   10. CWChris Williamson16:07

       It's not like Pornhub, where you-

   11. FIFreya India16:09

       Yeah

   12. CWChris Williamson16:09

       ... do some sort of verification.

   13. FIFreya India16:10

       No. You just put a birthday in.

   14. CWChris Williamson16:12

       I was with Tony Abbott-

   15. FIFreya India16:14

       Mm-hmm

   16. CWChris Williamson16:14

       ... in, uh, Australia, and, uh, I, I didn't know much about Tony Abbott before we sat down. Interesting guy. We were with the person who had, uh, spearheaded that under 16 social media ban-

   17. FIFreya India16:28

       Yeah

   18. CWChris Williamson16:29

       ... in Australia. They were at the table too. It was this big, big dinner thing. And, uh, I wonder whether that's going to get rolled out. I get the sense that the UK is gonna feel way too much pressure. It's so tight-knit-

   19. FIFreya India16:41

       Yeah

   20. CWChris Williamson16:41

       ... that I think it's gonna really struggle. The, the, the Brits just don't like dealing with displeasure in that way. They don't like it. We're a complaining country, right?

   21. FIFreya India16:48

       Yes.

   22. CWChris Williamson16:48

       I'm aware that Americans are very litigious.

   23. FIFreya India16:51

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson16:51

       If you trip over on a curb, someone's getting sued.

   25. FIFreya India16:53

       Yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson16:53

       But, uh, the UK have the equivalent skill but at complaining, and I think that that is a-

   27. FIFreya India16:58

       True

   28. CWChris Williamson16:59

       ... weapon of mass destruction that stops progress from happening sometimes.

   29. FIFreya India17:02

       I also think we are more of a surveillance state, as in, um, there's so much messaging scaring the life out of young people for what they post and what they do online.

   30. CWChris Williamson17:15

       Mm.
8. 17:56 – 28:30

   Do Young Women Really Want a Child-Free Life?

   1. CWChris Williamson17:56

      So what's happening with young girls' desire for children?

   2. FIFreya India18:01

      Um, I think that-- It's very interesting to me when I did the book that young men seem to be more, seem to desire having children someday more than young women.So there was a Pew survey recently which showed that 12th grade girls were less likely to say they wanted to get married someday even than young men. Um, and there were so many statistics about not just children, but being open to dating and having a relationship, that men seemed much more open to dating. Single young women were actually more likely to say that they felt that marriage was outdated and old-fashioned than men.

   3. CWChris Williamson18:38

      Mm.

   4. FIFreya India18:39

      And so what interests me is why young women seem more averse than young men now. I would think it would be the opposite. And I think part of that is my argument that women are becoming something more like products. I also think as well, it's general risk aversion and fear.

   5. CWChris Williamson18:58

      Mm.

   6. FIFreya India18:59

      And I trace some of that back to, you know, having your own family break down. I don't think young women have had good models of stable relationships that make them feel safe and that they could invest in someone enough to have children.

   7. CWChris Williamson19:14

      So you're saying the psychological impact of being in a home that's either unstable or maybe broken causes, uh, an imprinting for what you think relationships should be like when you get older?

   8. FIFreya India19:27

      Yeah. And having children is terrifying, so it's so vulnerable for a, a woman. And so I think that fear is a huge part of it. And if you think of, it's not just maybe you grew up in an unstable household, but you might have also grown up online, so you don't see a happy relationship between your parents, and then you learn about relationships from the internet.

   9. CWChris Williamson19:50

      Yeah.

   10. FIFreya India19:50

       So you learn from the sort of deranged gender discourse online. So you're hearing wounded adults talk about men and women and generalize and stereotype off the back of their own hurt and heartbreak. But you've got young people reading that before they've had an experience of a relationship. So you have that, and then you also have online porn will be teaching you about relationships and teaching girls that men are sort of brutal and insatiable and predatory. And so, and I think this is happening for young men as well. I just haven't researched it as much. But it seems to me that all of young women's templates will be very scary and make that commitment even scarier.

   11. CWChris Williamson20:34

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   12. FIFreya India21:53

       I think the risk aversion. So people often talk about the childfree sort of glamorizing their lives, so they'll be like in the Maldives and they'll be able to, you know, they have double income, so they can buy all of this, uh, meaningless stuff. But that doesn't worry me as much as the general fear. So I'm gonna [laughs] get you into trouble again, but the girl with the list, she lists out all of the terrifying things. I'm gonna need one.

   13. CWChris Williamson22:23

       Yeah.

   14. FIFreya India22:23

       I can say it 'cause I'm a woman.

   15. CWChris Williamson22:24

       It's okay. Go ahead.

   16. FIFreya India22:25

       All of the terrifying things that can happen in childhood.

   17. CWChris Williamson22:28

       Mm-hmm.

   18. FIFreya India22:29

       And that to me is way more dangerous for young women now. It's, it's not that I think they're looking at childfree lives and thinking it's really glamorous. I think they're just really scared. We know we're already a risk averse generation. And then, you know, you think of previous generations, they were not able to read through all of the physical risks and analysis and neuroticism about having children that we are. And so I think that really affects anxious young women where they think, "Why would I do this?"

   19. CWChris Williamson23:01

       To steelman that side, I think childbirth is so physically and emotionally taxing-

   20. FIFreya India23:11

       Mm-hmm

   21. CWChris Williamson23:11

       ... for women in a way that it just isn't for men.

   22. FIFreya India23:13

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson23:14

       The, the, there is a huge asymmetry in terms of what women pay in order to go through childbirth and what men pay in order to go through childbirth. And I think what that leaves is a sense that any man or person, but specifically a man, who doesn't fully recognize how big of a risk and sacrifice that is for a woman-

   24. FIFreya India23:36

       Mm-hmm

   25. CWChris Williamson23:36

       ... if they appear to be flippant or not understanding or not compassionate about it, which can be overly sensitive, but still it appears as a man being callous.

   26. FIFreya India23:47

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson23:47

       And I understand if, if this is the scariest, biggest thing that you're going to do in your entire female adult life-

   28. FIFreya India23:53

       Mm-hmm

   29. CWChris Williamson23:54

       ... and some guy comes along and seems to be dismissive-

   30. FIFreya India23:58

       Yeah
9. 28:30 – 30:04

   Are Young Women Turning Against Capitalism?

   1. CWChris Williamson28:30

      Do young liberal women hate capitalism or love the idea of an independent career?

   2. FIFreya India28:36

      I know.

   3. CWChris Williamson28:36

      Because I can't work out which one it is.

   4. FIFreya India28:38

      Yeah. That is very confusing to me because my book is criticized for, um, they, they think it's an anti-capitalist book, but I don't call out capitalism because I believe in free markets. And so I'm criticized for not, um, you know, having an anti-capitalist argument, but then I'm also criticized for, you know, questioning the motives of girlboss feminism and being, uh, putting everything into your career. And so I don't understand how the two are compatible at all. And my argument in the book is actually if you progressives sort of demonize all these other forms of authority, so, um, r- religion. You don't wanna be told what to do by religion. You don't wanna be told what to do by your parents. You don't want right and wrong from basically anyone. And my argument in the book is if you, uh, undermine all of these form, forms of authority, the authority will be the market. The market will influence right and wrong. It will be influencers who tell you what right and wrong is. It will be influencers who come in and determine what you value rather than relying on all of these other things.

   5. CWChris Williamson29:48

      Mm.

   6. FIFreya India29:49

      So I often think that progressives sort of wanna take down all of these other forms of belonging and meaning, and then all that's left is companies and industries.

   7. CWChris Williamson29:58

      Mm-hmm.

   8. FIFreya India29:58

      But then they're anti-capitalist.

   9. CWChris Williamson30:01

      It's a difficult circle to square.

   10. FIFreya India30:02

       Yeah.

10. 30:04 – 33:37

    The Harmful Narratives Shaping Modern Sex

    1. CWChris Williamson30:04

       What's happening with sex?

    2. FIFreya India30:07

       Well, so that was interesting in the book because I had so much research about how hookup culture was pushed on my generation. So the book goes from 2010 to now, and everything that's changed sort of culturally and technologically. And I had all of these examples like-Teen Vogue teaching teenagers how to have anal sex, giving them tips on hookup culture, some crazy stuff. And then I had, I had to sit and listen to these Call Her Daddy episodes [laughs] to get transcripts of what they were talking about, and this was sort of in the late 2010s.

    3. CWChris Williamson30:44

       Mm.

    4. FIFreya India30:44

       And it's all about sleeping around and hookup culture and why it's good and empowering and, um, healthy for young girls. So I had all of this evidence that there was so much influence that that was normalized. And-

    5. CWChris Williamson30:59

       Alex Cooper now happily engaged.

    6. FIFreya India31:01

       Yeah. So I had that, but then you look at the statistics and we're not actually having more sex. And so I was thinking that's all going to lead to this huge explosion in hookup culture, and it really hasn't. Um, and so there's a paradox there. There's so many paradoxes in the book between the messaging we were given and what actually happened, the outcome, and that's just one of them.

    7. CWChris Williamson31:24

       Yeah. It seems strange that Gen Z's hypersexualized and having less sex at the same time.

    8. FIFreya India31:29

       Yes. But maybe they're linked, which is that the... When I was sat listening to the Call Her Daddy episodes and reading these articles, sex sounded horrifying and scary. And-

    9. CWChris Williamson31:43

       Did it? In... Is, is it not advertising sex?

    10. FIFreya India31:47

        I think that's what we think it's doing. But I mean, on Call Her Daddy, they're saying, you know, "If you're a five or four out of 10, then you really need to, like, learn these sex tips in order to make up for it. You're just a hole."

    11. CWChris Williamson32:01

        [laughs]

    12. FIFreya India32:02

        [laughs] No, but just generally, so it's like the sort of stereotypically worst masculine banter-

    13. CWChris Williamson32:10

        Mm-hmm

    14. FIFreya India32:10

        ... coming out of women. Like, basically they had this guest on called-

    15. CWChris Williamson32:14

        It sounds like something that Louis Theroux would've seen in the-

    16. FIFreya India32:17

        Yeah

    17. CWChris Williamson32:17

        ... Manosphere doc.

    18. FIFreya India32:18

        Exactly. Well, they-

    19. CWChris Williamson32:18

        Like, if you're, if, if you're butters, you'd better learn to cook.

    20. FIFreya India32:21

        Exactly. So they had this guest on called MILF Hunter.

    21. CWChris Williamson32:25

        [laughs] Brilliant. Hang on.

    22. FIFreya India32:27

        And-

    23. CWChris Williamson32:27

        MILF Hunter for women?

    24. FIFreya India32:30

        This is a guy-

    25. CWChris Williamson32:31

        Right

    26. FIFreya India32:32

        ... who had slept with a load of older women and was giving them advice basically.

    27. CWChris Williamson32:37

        Okay.

    28. FIFreya India32:38

        And the advice is just horrifying. But then at the end, he, he shouts out, "Women don't care about you... Sorry, men don't care about you." And then Alex Cooper and the other host are like, "I hope you girls are listening, and even if you're married, you're not safe. He still wants to cheat on you." There's this terrifying messaging around sex.

    29. CWChris Williamson32:59

        Jesus Christ.

    30. FIFreya India32:59

        And I think that is... I mean, it's the most listened to podcast by women. And so I really think that would've played a part in why, um, we're now seeing a sex recession, is that you had it on both sides. You had this awful messaging from the feminist influencers, the femo-sphere that the New Statesman now are finally talking about. But then you also have it from the manosphere influencers, everybody basically saying that investing in the opposite sex or being vulnerable at all is gonna get you hurt, and you have to put on this defense mechanism bravado. Um, and it's the exact same messaging.

11. 33:37 – 38:13

    Are Young Women Porn-Brained?

    1. CWChris Williamson33:37

       What do you think porn's done to expectations around sex and power?

    2. FIFreya India33:42

       I think porn is another thing that terrified young women, um, from my generation because they would've been exposed to it before, likely before they've had a relationship. And so you have... I had to go on this forum in the book of Gen Z adults talking about when they first were exposed to porn.

    3. CWChris Williamson34:05

       Mm.

    4. FIFreya India34:06

       And some of them are like eight, six, and they're talking about accidentally seeing it on these platforms, and way before they've even attempted dating anyone or, or can put that in context. Um, so I think we, we talk a lot about the impact of porn on young men, but not so much on young women. Even if they're not watching it, I think there's constant sort of exposure to it on social media. So a lot of the statistics in the book were accidental exposure, so it's not young people going onto Pornhub. It's very often on Twitter or Instagram, and it's accidentally come up, and it started an addiction. Um, and so I think that plays into the same thing. It creates a fear around sex, and it creates crazy expectations. I think there's porn-brained women sometimes, where-

    5. CWChris Williamson34:59

       Mm

    6. FIFreya India34:59

       ... the way they speak about women, about themselves is so heartbreaking. Even listening to Call Her Daddy and some of the guests on there, the way they talk about themselves, it sounds like it's straight out of a porn site, and that's... They're viewing themselves as nothing but an object, a product.

    7. CWChris Williamson35:16

       There's another weird paradox going on here, which is porn is both something totally meaningless, transactional, that you can do freely with whoever you want, whenever you want.

    8. FIFreya India35:30

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson35:30

       And also the root of potentially the most traumatic thing in your life if it's done incorrectly.

    10. FIFreya India35:37

        Mm-hmm.

    11. CWChris Williamson35:38

        That I, I, I don't-

    12. FIFreya India35:42

        No, I don't understand the consistent defense of porn, um, from progressives. So this is part of the controversial part of my book, is that I don't caveat, I don't give any disclaimers with that because I was so tired of reading books that constantly caveat. And so with things like porn-

    13. CWChris Williamson36:05

        The throat clearing land acknowledgement and so on.

    14. FIFreya India36:06

        Yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson36:07

        "Well, we must remember that porn can... It does empower women to be able to, if they're disadvantaged-"

    16. FIFreya India36:12

        Yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson36:12

        "... and they've got an iPhone and a dildo and they can make the money that they want," but-

    18. FIFreya India36:15

        And I do that throughout the book. So another controversial part of the book is I talk about the mental health industry, and I don't do the constant, you know, some medication really helps people and it saves their lives, and therapy is, of course, lifesaving for some people. I do a brief acknowledgement of that at the beginningAnd then I go into what I think are the real dangers, because I think we've heard that other side of the story. There are so many books telling you the benefits of mental health awareness and opening up and taking medication. And the point of the book is it's the things that we didn't grow up hearing. And so I give, uh, the skeptical side of it, and I think that is very alarming to a lot of progressives. They want the constant disclaimers because they think it's dangerous to not have them.

    19. CWChris Williamson36:58

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12. 38:13 – 44:26

    Is It Healthy to Share Everything Online?

    1. CWChris Williamson38:13

       at checkout. How do girls think about their emotional lives and struggles?

    2. FIFreya India38:18

       Well, in the book, I actually talk about, it starts with this sort of cliché of posting your perfect life online, so highlight reel of everything you're doing. And then I trace the start of influencers being vulnerable online. So I put it-- I s- I begin with Zoella, who was huge in the UK. You know the beauty influencer?

    3. CWChris Williamson38:41

       No. Should I?

    4. FIFreya India38:42

       You don't know her?

    5. CWChris Williamson38:43

       Sorry, um, what, the, uh, the beau- the beauty influencer Zoella?

    6. FIFreya India38:47

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson38:47

       I should be familiar with her?

    8. FIFreya India38:49

       Okay, maybe men and women do have different lives on social media.

    9. CWChris Williamson38:51

       There's different echo chambers here, you know what I mean? Yeah. Does she lift?

    10. FIFreya India38:55

        No.

    11. CWChris Williamson38:55

        Ah. If she lifts-

    12. FIFreya India38:57

        No

    13. CWChris Williamson38:57

        ... then I-- If she starts lifting, if she does a vlog with Chris Bumstead, I'll watch that.

    14. FIFreya India39:00

        Okay.

    15. CWChris Williamson39:01

        Okay.

    16. FIFreya India39:01

        Okay. But she basically, she was huge for young British women.

    17. CWChris Williamson39:05

        Okay. British?

    18. FIFreya India39:06

        And, yeah.

    19. CWChris Williamson39:07

        Yeah.

    20. FIFreya India39:07

        And she was sort of perfect looking and really sort of inspirational if you were 13, and she was in her 20s, and she was one of the first beauty influencers. And she did this video where it was so dramatic. She was like, "I'm gonna reveal a really dark side to myself. You guys might not think about me the same and, but I've just got to say it." And it was literally just she has anxiety. But at the time, it was so... it felt so personal and private that she was revealing this. And so she, she spoke about having panic attacks.

    21. CWChris Williamson39:39

        Mm.

    22. FIFreya India39:39

        And it got millions of views because 13-year-olds like me at the time were like, "Gosh, there's this perfect woman admitting to having a struggle." And so that to me seems a healthy thing. And then I talk about how that basically became incentivized. A whole industry got built around that, and other influencers began to see that opening up would be beneficial in terms of clicks-

    23. CWChris Williamson40:05

        How is it beneficial?

    24. FIFreya India40:05

        ... and money. Because it's, it's releasing sort of a private secret, so it's very clickable. So if you say, "I have to tell you how damaged I am about my personal trauma," it's like gossip. And so those videos do really well because they're intimate and vulnerable. And, and basically that was the start of girls like me seeing influencers offer up their deepest feelings to the market, to algorithms, and I think some of it was directly copying influencers. So we're so sick and tired of the filtered, perfect lives that we're all gonna start showing-

    25. CWChris Williamson40:43

        Mm

    26. FIFreya India40:44

        ... the vulnerable side of ourselves.

    27. CWChris Williamson40:45

        But it's still a kind of performance.

    28. FIFreya India40:47

        And yeah. And so my argument in the book is it's became, it became its own performance just as damaging as seeing the perfect lives. Now you scroll through people live streaming their panic attacks, showing their messy depression rooms.

    29. CWChris Williamson41:00

        Well, at least the, at least the perfect lives are aspirational.

    30. FIFreya India41:03

        Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's-
13. 44:26 – 46:40

    Is Suicide Rising Among Young Women?

    1. FIFreya India44:26

       of the book.

    2. CWChris Williamson44:26

       Nearly thirty percent of teenage American girls aged eighteen to f- fourteen to eighteen seriously considered attempting suicide in 2021. Thirty percent of teenage American girls eighteen to fourteen seriously considered attempting suicide in 2021?

    3. FIFreya India44:41

       See, I think there's two things going on, which is that there is genuine distress. And so I'm not someone who argues that, um, young women are just diagnosing themselves, but they feel fine. I don't actually think they feel fine. I think they feel intense psychological distress for all sorts of reasons, but then part of that distress is a mental health industry that is encouraging them to ruminate, to go more inwards, to focus on it, to diagnose themselves.

    4. CWChris Williamson45:12

       Mm.

    5. FIFreya India45:12

       And so it's a part of it. Um, but I think, yeah, if, if young girls say they have an anxiety disorder, they have social anxiety, I think what they're really feeling is actual distress from the world that they're growing up in.

    6. CWChris Williamson45:28

       Mm.

    7. FIFreya India45:28

       And so they have had less practice, they have had less face-to-face interaction, and so they do have this outsize reaction to socializing, but it's not a disorder. And so the problem is you have a lot of young women who typically, by their nature, will go inwards when they feel distressed, but you have industries encouraging them and telling them, "The problem is you."

    8. CWChris Williamson45:49

       Yeah, they're not making it up, but they are being manipulated.

    9. FIFreya India45:51

       Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and the, the point of the book is basically there's nothing wrong with you. Your reactions are human reactions to the world and, and to a world that's trying to turn you into a product, the fact that you feel unhappy.

    10. CWChris Williamson46:04

        What's the product bit?

    11. FIFreya India46:06

        Well, I think that all of these things in some way are linked to girls viewing themselves as some kind of object or trying to be perfect, so trying to look perfect, feel perfect, labeling themselves if they feel anything human or any sort of distress or human reaction to something, they will need to package it up and understand it. I think so much of girls' lives is about, again, presenting things to the market and understanding, labeling, and displaying themselves for other people.

    12. CWChris Williamson46:39

        Mm.

14. 46:40 – 50:30

    Is Social Media Radicalising Young Women?

    1. CWChris Williamson46:40

       What's happening politically?

    2. FIFreya India46:42

       To young women? Well, so this is the interesting thing in that New Statesman piece is they actually admitted that it's young women who have been radicalized. So from the twenty tens, it was young women who lurched dramatically to the left. It wasn't that young men lurched to the right. Young men pretty much stayed where they were. It was women.

    3. CWChris Williamson47:03

       Yeah. The New Statesman said, "The prevailing narrative is that young men under the influence of the manosphere and Andrew Tate are being politically radicalized faster and in greater numbers than young women. The result is a gulf in political sensibility between British women and men who are now dramatically inclined to the populist right compared with other parts of the population. It's a compelling story, but it isn't completely accurate. Instead, it is young women moving to the radical left that is widening the political gender gap among the under thirties."

    4. FIFreya India47:30

       Yeah. And I would put that down to social media because, um, obviously there's all different spheres of content on social media, and every trend, basically, you can get dragged toward the most deranged and extreme endpoint of that trend. And so I've been trying to argue for ages that young women are going down their own rabbit holes, whether it's mental health trends. They hover over some content and then end up diagnosing themselves, and it becomes their full identity because they're dragged constantly toward more content. And it's the same with progressive politics. You start at a pretty normal place where maybe previous generations of women were, but then you get moved by the algorithm constantly further and further to the left. Um-

    5. CWChris Williamson48:16

       Why to the left and not to the right?

    6. FIFreya India48:18

       I think because progressive politics pl- naturally plays into women's characteristics, especially the new sort of social justice culture of politics, because it's very much about compassion, empathy, also plays into our vices, so indirect aggression, cancel culture, risk aversion, safetyism.A lot of the vices of young women are sort of indulged by the new social justice movement. So I think that's happening. But then also you combine that with social media platforms, and young women are just sucked into it in a way that young men aren't.

    7. CWChris Williamson48:55

       Mm. There was a, a segment in that New Statesman article. "I asked if the women would consider dating a man with different politics. They all immediately said no. 'I don't think I'd even be friends with one,' said one girl. 'They don't see you as human.' Only one woman, Evelyn, admitted to having male friends, though she was worried this made her a pick me, trying too hard for male attention. Evelyn was concerned about what she, the men that she knew were watching online. 'The stuff that's being said about women is crazy. They're getting all of these reels talking about like bad stuff about women. And I get reels of women saying bad stuff about men. I try to think not all men are like this.'" But it's interesting that men get reels talking bad stuff about women.

    8. FIFreya India49:35

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson49:35

       And she knows that she gets reels of women talking bad stuff about men.

    10. FIFreya India49:39

        Yeah.

    11. CWChris Williamson49:39

        But that the women talking bad stuff about men is warning her about what the men are watching.

    12. FIFreya India49:43

        Yes.

    13. CWChris Williamson49:43

        And that's true.

    14. FIFreya India49:44

        Yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson49:44

        But that the reels that are telling the men the bad stuff about women, that's actually where the danger is.

    16. FIFreya India49:49

        Yeah. And I think that's where what the New Statesman would draw from all this, is that women are, have negative views of men because men are bad, rather than why do they have negative views of men? What, what rabbit holes are they going down? When it's young men, it's always a rabbit hole that they've gone down. But young women are reacting to a real issue.

    17. CWChris Williamson50:09

        Mm.

    18. FIFreya India50:10

        Whereas I, I've seen so many parallels between the sort of extreme manosphere guys and Call Her Daddy. It's the same language. It's the same like thumbnails and titles. So it would be like, "We don't need men," and, "We don't need women," exactly the same. And the way, again, they speak about women is identical.

15. 50:30 – 53:43

    Why 2020 Changed Everything for Women

    1. CWChris Williamson50:30

       Was 2020 a turning point for girls online?

    2. FIFreya India50:34

       I think it was the first time that I remember being called out for not posting something, and so something really changed in terms of you have to join in. The, the pressure and the fear of your reputation being smeared, especially if you were a teenage girl at the time. Um, so I remember being, I think I was 19 when Black, Black Lives, Lives Matter protests were happening, and the sort of, again, you had celebrities and influencers being called out, but then you had ordinary girls coming after each other for not posting stuff.

    3. CWChris Williamson51:12

       Mm.

    4. FIFreya India51:12

       And I give the context in the book that we were basically posting everything online by that point. So every relationship, memory, holiday was updated and, you know, compulsively shared with people. And so if you're doing that and then you don't post a black square, [laughs] it looks really suspect because everything else is shared. And so I think what changed in 2020 is morality became measurable and instantly judged-

    5. CWChris Williamson51:40

       Mm

    6. FIFreya India51:40

       ... by your Instagram profile. Um, and I think when you're a teenage girl, your life is basically just constant reputation management. And so that really hit young girls, this idea that you're not a good person if you're not joining in and you're not displaying, um, where you stand on things.

    7. CWChris Williamson52:00

       What was that silence is consent tagline?

    8. FIFreya India52:04

       [laughs] Yeah. That was Cara Delevingne. So she had a s- Instagram story saying, "Silence is consent," which is the worst-

    9. CWChris Williamson52:13

       It's not great

    10. FIFreya India52:13

        ... worst tagline.

    11. CWChris Williamson52:13

        It's not great to tell women, is it?

    12. FIFreya India52:15

        Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, all of-- So it was young women pressuring each other and then going after each other for not doing it, because it became another form of reputation destruction, that you have inoffensive and outdated views. And so I think it was even separate from what was happening politically. It just became another form of competition.

    13. CWChris Williamson52:36

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16. 53:43 – 59:37

    The Rise of Appearance Anxiety Among Women

    1. CWChris Williamson53:43

       The, the female intrasexual competition thing is so fascinating to me because it's so hidden.

    2. FIFreya India53:48

       Mm.

    3. CWChris Williamson53:48

       It's so done behind the scenes.

    4. FIFreya India53:49

       Yeah.

    5. CWChris Williamson53:49

       It's not out front. I guess, what's happening with how girls see their appearance? How's that changed over time?

    6. FIFreya India53:56

       Yeah, I mean, that's another crazy arms race. I mean, I talk about, um, again, with beauty influence, influencers like Zoella that I grew up with, she would just do like a back to school makeup tutorial, and it would be very simple and basic and not, uh, nothing really harmful about teenage girls watching that. But again, the competition, the amount of influencers over the years that, that now have to compete for clicks and money mean that each beauty influencer also has to up their game and say something slightly more extreme or show something more extreme. So for example, you go from normal beauty tutorials to casual vlogs where you just show you getting a Brazilian butt lift in the middle of the vlog, and that becomes part of a standard beauty routine. And you see it with stuff like anti-aging where it's just-A simple anti-aging routine then becomes like a 50-step anti-aging routine, and you need to do it younger and younger because the thumbnail that says, you know, you need Botox at 17 does way better because people click it and wanna know more about it. And so it's in all aspects of life for young women. It's the mental health trends, it's the political trends, it's the beauty trends. Basically, social media will drag everything to its inevitable extreme.

    7. CWChris Williamson55:19

       Hmm.

    8. FIFreya India55:20

       And then if you're spending most of your waking hours on social media, then that is no longer the extreme. That is where you're getting your information. It's where you're learning about beauty and relationships-

    9. CWChris Williamson55:32

       Hmm

    10. FIFreya India55:32

        ... and politics.

    11. CWChris Williamson55:34

        Has Instagram and TikTok changed what we find attractive?

    12. FIFreya India55:38

        Yeah, I think so. I think it's more of a sort of avatar now, where you... There's a terror of aging among young women. And so I wrote a piece ages ago about 12-year-olds worrying about wrinkles on Reddit forums and obsessively ruminating over pictures, whether they, whe- whether they have aged, um, writing out all of the sun exposure they've had and checking, you know, is this something that could make me look worse in the future?

    13. CWChris Williamson56:10

        Hmm.

    14. FIFreya India56:10

        Comparing all of their anti-aging routines, and they're children. Um, it's-

    15. CWChris Williamson56:16

        You need an aging routine? You need, you need to actively be aging at that point.

    16. FIFreya India56:21

        Yes. Yeah, yeah. Well, this is-

    17. CWChris Williamson56:22

        Get more sun

    18. FIFreya India56:23

        ... sometimes it's girls worrying about wrinkles before they've got through puberty because they've grown up with watching influencers who are worrying about that and who are having to sort of exaggerate their neuroticism and up their neuroticism to get clicks.

    19. CWChris Williamson56:37

        Hmm.

    20. FIFreya India56:38

        But then you have young girls, that's the first they encounter, first sort of young women role models they encounter who are warning them about this. Um, and I think social media in general just makes you ruminate. And so girls already ruminate more than boys, but then they're on all these platforms like Reddit, where you all co-ruminate together.

    21. CWChris Williamson56:59

        Hmm.

    22. FIFreya India56:59

        The point is you talk about your problems excessively.

    23. CWChris Williamson57:02

        And there's an escalation on there as well.

    24. FIFreya India57:04

        Yeah.

    25. CWChris Williamson57:04

        There's always a sense of one-upmanship. I always see this with my friends that are, uh, conspiracy-minded. And in a room, there's always a l- it's kind of like an arms race to see who can go deepest down the iceberg.

    26. FIFreya India57:18

        Yeah.

    27. CWChris Williamson57:18

        It's like, "Oh, you think that Epstein was just a guy that had an isle? Oh, you think he was just Mossad? Oh, you think he was just a reptile person?"

    28. FIFreya India57:25

        Yeah. [laughs]

    29. CWChris Williamson57:25

        "Dude, let me tell you the... Oh, that's cute. Let me tell you the real thing." And it's this, yeah, weird race to the bottom of the-

    30. FIFreya India57:31

        Yeah
17. 59:37 – 1:03:18

    Is “Self-Love” Just Another Marketing Strategy?

    1. FIFreya India59:37

       look.

    2. CWChris Williamson59:37

       How does the self-love messaging coexist with record levels of body dissatisfaction?

    3. FIFreya India59:44

       Yeah, that's another paradox. Um, I think because it's a marketing strategy. It's much like mental health awareness. A lot of that was a marketing strategy. The self-love campaign was basically ways to sell things like editing apps. So Facetune was marketed as something that can help you feel confident and empowered. And I talk about these influencers in the book who are literally... They're literally talking about how they don't have any insecurities anymore, and they've overcome it, and they've finally reached a stage of self-love while they're literally reshaping their jaw on Facetune, teaching girls how to do it. And none of the comments are calling that out or thinking it's hypocritical.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:00:31

       Why?

    5. FIFreya India1:00:33

       Because I think it's been drilled into us that these things are self-love. And so a lot of the time in the book I talk about recognizing what are you actually being sold versus what you're being told. Because you're constantly being told you feel this way-

    6. CWChris Williamson1:00:48

       Hmm

    7. FIFreya India1:00:48

       ... and that this app or technology or trend will make you feel this way, even though it's not. So I don't know anyYoung woman that would Facetune herself and feel good

    8. CWChris Williamson1:00:59

       Mm

    9. FIFreya India1:01:00

       ... feel good doing it rather than feel embarrassed and a bit ashamed, and feel worse about themselves after

    10. CWChris Williamson1:01:07

        You know, I think the same thing happened with the pickup artist movement.

    11. FIFreya India1:01:09

        Yeah

    12. CWChris Williamson1:01:10

        So what guys that did it learned was just how much they had to contort themselves-

    13. FIFreya India1:01:17

        Mm-hmm

    14. CWChris Williamson1:01:17

        ... in order to get laid with a woman.

    15. FIFreya India1:01:19

        Yeah

    16. CWChris Williamson1:01:19

        And even if it was effective, what they felt was the delta between who they were normally and who they were when they deployed The Game by Neil Strauss.

    17. FIFreya India1:01:27

        Yes. Yeah

    18. CWChris Williamson1:01:27

        And that gap made them, the normal version of them feel even more disgusting, even more unwanted. Look at how much I've got to disguise and pervert myself in an attempt to try... Did you see the midget fight outside? Let's go to three other bars so that I can-

    19. FIFreya India1:01:42

        Yeah

    20. CWChris Williamson1:01:42

        ... neurolinguistically program hack the back of your brain into coming to bed with me tonight. You go, "I have to jump through all of these hoops," and this is where... So for the guys that it was successful for-

    21. FIFreya India1:01:52

        Mm-hmm

    22. CWChris Williamson1:01:53

        ... uh, if you don't do too much self-investigation, hooray, you did a thing.

    23. FIFreya India1:01:57

        Yeah

    24. CWChris Williamson1:01:58

        But if you do a bit more self-investigation, it's pretty, it can be pretty dark. And for the guys that did it and it didn't work-

    25. FIFreya India1:02:04

        Mm-hmm

    26. CWChris Williamson1:02:05

        ... even with the best tactics in the world, I still can't make myself into someone that a woman wants.

    27. FIFreya India1:02:11

        Yes.

    28. CWChris Williamson1:02:13

        Neither of those are good outcomes.

    29. FIFreya India1:02:14

        Yeah, it's the same, that's so similar to the beauty stuff for women, which is that it can maybe get you what you want superficially. So you Facetune yourself and you get 200 likes on your Instagram post, but it then, it's a momentary bit of dopamine. But then after that, you're now hooked on the app. You need to keep using it. You need the constant-

    30. CWChris Williamson1:02:37

        And the algorithm
18. 1:03:18 – 1:05:47

    How Filters Distort Our Self-Image

    1. CWChris Williamson1:03:18

       You know what was interesting? I was at, I was on Long Island, uh, August of last year. Good weather, sunset, and there was a group of young teenage girls that were taking photos. And I noticed that if it was really perfectly put together... I mean, they must have taken, I'm not kidding, it must have been hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of photos. I get it.

    2. FIFreya India1:03:38

       Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:03:38

       You want a nice new profile picture, whatever. Like, is it a bit silly? Yeah, but whatever. It's fine.

    4. FIFreya India1:03:42

       Yeah.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:03:43

       The other thing that was interesting was if they were snapping as they walked. Because it, they'd stayed in the same area that was gonna have the best sunset-

    6. FIFreya India1:03:50

       Mm-hmm

    7. CWChris Williamson1:03:50

       ... which is where everybody was, eating ice cream or whatever. And, um, if someone was sort of snapping away more naturally, more candidly, immediately all of their hands went up to their face.

    8. FIFreya India1:03:59

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:04:00

       Have you seen this trend?

    10. FIFreya India1:04:00

        Yeah, yeah.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:04:01

        Where girls sort of do this.

    12. FIFreya India1:04:02

        Mm-hmm.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:04:02

        So they'll do, they'll pose with their body, but cover their face with their hand.

    14. FIFreya India1:04:06

        Yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:04:07

        And as I, I, again, like, I'm trying to get it. I'm trying to not curmudgeonly point a finger at someone that's 20 years younger than me-

    16. FIFreya India1:04:15

        Yeah

    17. CWChris Williamson1:04:16

        ... and go, "These kids, these..." I'm like, okay, so what is it that they're feeling? Why are they doing this thing? Could, what's the best interpretation of this? Like, it's a cutesy little... You... But it wasn't a Marilyn Monroe shocked open mouth sort of-

    18. FIFreya India1:04:30

        Yeah

    19. CWChris Williamson1:04:30

        ... face. It was, "I just need to do this." It was like the scene out of Four Lions where he's trying to-

    20. FIFreya India1:04:36

        Yeah, yeah [laughs]

    21. CWChris Williamson1:04:36

        ... stop the fucking CCTV from watching him.

    22. FIFreya India1:04:38

        It's another paradox where we're vain and insecure at the same time.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:04:42

        Mm.

    24. FIFreya India1:04:43

        But there, there's context to it because, you know, I grew up with the dog ear filter on Snapchat.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:04:48

        Yeah.

    26. FIFreya India1:04:48

        Please tell me you know what that... Yeah

    27. CWChris Williamson1:04:49

        I'd, I've seen that one. And I remember the, um... Do you remember the face mask that was bees?

    28. FIFreya India1:04:54

        No.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:04:55

        So, you know, like the face mask that you used to have in COVID?

    30. FIFreya India1:04:57

        Yeah
19. 1:05:47 – 1:10:33

    Have We All Regressed to Mean Teenagers?

    1. CWChris Williamson1:05:47

       Why do you think social media's feminized us all?

    2. FIFreya India1:05:50

       Oh, because I think that it has... So because girls use social media more than boys, and they say that they find it harder to give up. And as I said before, it sort of, these platforms tap into our vulnerabilities and our vices. But then lately I've realized that I think it does that for everyone. So I used to think that social media's particularly bad for girls because it makes you feel insecure, it makes you ruminate, and it encourages this indirect aggression, so reputation destruction, and going after people online. But now I see grown men online acting like teenage girls, and I think it's because the platform itself encourages these behavior that teenage girls already typically do. And so you see people online of all genders, of all different sides of the political spectrum, all different types of content, thinking like teenage girls, so becoming more ruminative.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:06:52

       Hmm.

    4. FIFreya India1:06:53

       Spending hours and hours on platforms where they have to share how they feel, how their day is, their opinion, encouraged to sort of catastrophize and ruminate over that. Then you have-Men and all different types of people becoming more insecure. So looking at themselves through a front-facing camera, which is bad for girls, but even worse, I think, for boys. It's just very unnatural to sort of forensically analyze and inspect your face.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:07:20

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    6. FIFreya India1:07:21

       And so you have looksmaxing and guys getting really, um, obsessed with how they come across and how they appear, and also thinking they have to be this perfect product. And then you also have guys using sort of the typical aggressive tactics of teenage girls online. And so Louise Perry and Mary Harrington have spoken about this, that the internet forecloses physical aggression. You can't punch someone on Twitter.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:07:47

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    8. FIFreya India1:07:48

       And so you have to do things like spread rumors-

    9. CWChris Williamson1:07:50

       Reputation damage

    10. FIFreya India1:07:51

        ... yeah, gossip-

    11. CWChris Williamson1:07:52

        Mm-hmm

    12. FIFreya India1:07:53

        ... and, um, yeah, just, just destroy their reputation through posting, like, an unflattering picture of them-

    13. CWChris Williamson1:07:58

        Mm-hmm

    14. FIFreya India1:07:59

        ... or form of abuse.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:08:00

        There's a lot of catty behavior-

    16. FIFreya India1:08:02

        Yeah

    17. CWChris Williamson1:08:02

        ... from men on the internet. You know, I go on X and I just see... Because I only log on maybe once every other day.

    18. FIFreya India1:08:10

        Yeah.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:08:10

        Uh, so I see it. C- you know, when you go in a nightclub and strobe lights flash, and you don't see someone move, you see them at frames?

    20. FIFreya India1:08:17

        Yeah.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:08:17

        They're here, then they're here, then they're here. It's kind of like that. So I log on and see this breakdown between two people, and then a couple of days later, where that war has sort of evolved into.

    22. FIFreya India1:08:29

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:08:29

        And it, it is so, especially for the most m- m- masculine, academic-y, intellectually-

    24. FIFreya India1:08:37

        Yeah

    25. CWChris Williamson1:08:37

        ... everybody has regressed to the mean of the high school dinner table.

    26. FIFreya India1:08:41

        But it's interesting because ideologically, men and women might be further apart, but I think behaviorally, that is one place-

    27. CWChris Williamson1:08:49

        So true

    28. FIFreya India1:08:49

        ... that we're converging, is that we're all regressing back to being teenage girls. And I, I also argued that it's not that... It's, the thing about being a teenage girl is it's miserable. Like a l- a lot of women would say they do not want to go back-

    29. CWChris Williamson1:09:03

        [laughs]

    30. FIFreya India1:09:04

        ... to being 13. It's, it's one of the worst-
20. 1:10:33 – 1:14:15

    Are Influencers Just Modern-Day Salespeople?

    1. CWChris Williamson1:10:33

       at checkout. Do you see influencers as just salespeople pretending to be friends then?

    2. FIFreya India1:10:39

       Yeah. So that's, that's a big part of all kinds of influencers, so beauty influencers, mental health influencers, is that they present themselves as a friend. And I think this happened quite naturally at first. So the original influencers were just-

    3. CWChris Williamson1:10:58

       "Hi, girls. Here we are today."

    4. FIFreya India1:10:59

       Yeah. But now it's a tactic. Now they know that they have to appeal to young girls and make them feel like a friend. And so I talk about these tactics in the book where they will literally say something like, that their YouTube title will be, "Let's get ready like we're on FaceTime." And they'll do their makeup and talk to you like you're on a FaceTime call and s- literally simulate friendship with girls.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:11:23

       Wow.

    6. FIFreya India1:11:23

       And I think that is a huge issue because it, it stops girls from getting lonely enough to actually go out and make friends-

    7. CWChris Williamson1:11:32

       Mm-hmm

    8. FIFreya India1:11:32

       ... and do something about it because they can simulate all of these things online.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:11:36

       Oh, it's so good. You've heard my male sedation hypothesis thing, right?

    10. FIFreya India1:11:39

        Maybe. Which one?

    11. CWChris Williamson1:11:40

        Uh, young male syndrome. Throughout history, when there's a lot of sexless young men, they tend to cause uprisings and push over granny and set shit on fire.

    12. FIFreya India1:11:49

        Yeah.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:11:50

        We've got the highest rates of sexlessness among young men that we've ever had.

    14. FIFreya India1:11:53

        Mm-hmm.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:11:54

        Why is there not the concordant antisocial behavior?

    16. FIFreya India1:11:58

        Yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:11:58

        And it's my belief that it's porn, screens, and video games.

    18. FIFreya India1:12:01

        Yeah.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:12:01

        Porn giving a titrated dose of sexual satisfaction, screens distracting, and video games giving a simulacrum of goal-seeking.

    20. FIFreya India1:12:10

        Yeah.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:12:10

        So they're being sedat- male sedation hypothesis, they're being sedated. That's why, like a, a s- study done by William is, where are all of the incel killings at?

    22. FIFreya India1:12:19

        Yeah.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:12:19

        Like, why are there not more? There should be if you were to run it by the numbers.

    24. FIFreya India1:12:22

        Mm-hmm.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:12:22

        That's not a fucking request to the DJ, but-

    26. FIFreya India1:12:24

        Yeah

    27. CWChris Williamson1:12:25

        ... where are they? And what's interesting about this is, what are some of the young female pathways? What are the nutrients that they want?

    28. FIFreya India1:12:35

        Yes.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:12:35

        For guys, it might be progress, mastery, a, a sense of, um, uh, teamwork as they move toward a goal.

    30. FIFreya India1:12:41

        Yeah.
21. 1:14:15 – 1:17:40

    Is the Internet Teaching Women to Hate Men?

    1. CWChris Williamson1:14:16

       I saw this quote the other day. I'd be interested to know what you think about it. "The average woman's misandry comes from online radicalization, not experience." What do you think about that?

    2. FIFreya India1:14:25

       Hmm. Um, I think they may have bad experiences. So when I was writing the book, a lot of the complaints from young women were things like situationships-

    3. CWChris Williamson1:14:42

       Mm-hmm

    4. FIFreya India1:14:42

       ... where there's no clear commitment. And so I do think there are less incentives for men to, um, formalize a relationship. I do think-

    5. CWChris Williamson1:14:52

       And also girls have to be super cool with that.

    6. FIFreya India1:14:54

       Yes.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:14:55

       Because-

    8. FIFreya India1:14:56

       Yeah, yeah

    9. CWChris Williamson1:14:56

       ... sex is supposed to be no strings attached.

    10. FIFreya India1:14:58

        Mm-hmm.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:14:58

        You should have sex like your brother and work like your father. It's super chill.

    12. FIFreya India1:15:01

        Yeah. So a lo- a lot of the forums are full of women asking each other whether something's okay. Like, "He... I'm not actually his girlfriend yet. He is dating someone, but we are exclusive." You know, it's like it gets really muddled.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:15:16

        Mm-hmm.

    14. FIFreya India1:15:16

        And asking each other, like, "Is this normal? Should I put up with this?"

    15. CWChris Williamson1:15:18

        Like a fucking Christopher Nolan movie plot.

    16. FIFreya India1:15:20

        Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so I think there will be cases where young women are coming across more men who do act like that.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:15:30

        Mm.

    18. FIFreya India1:15:31

        Um, depending on the type of young women and, and who she's going for. But a lot of the time, I do think the online radicalization is at least stopping them from treating those as specific examples. So they're then generalized to all men.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:15:48

        Mm-hmm.

    20. FIFreya India1:15:49

        So I think they might have had a bad experience, but then they go online and people say, "This is all men. This is happening to me. This is happening everywhere."

    21. CWChris Williamson1:15:54

        Mm.

    22. FIFreya India1:15:56

        And I think similar with women. So sometimes, um, I read comments will say things like, you know, [laughs] like, "One in two girls are OnlyFans stars"-

    23. CWChris Williamson1:16:07

        Yeah

    24. FIFreya India1:16:07

        ... or, "They're all promiscuous." And that's just not true. That's, that's just generalized from the internet. And so I think it happens to both sexes, which we're just, again, encouraged to catastrophize and generalize online.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:16:20

        Well, the most egregious stories are the ones that go viral.

    26. FIFreya India1:16:23

        Yeah.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:16:23

        Right? So you end up... I call this, uh, recursive red pill learning-

    28. FIFreya India1:16:26

        Mm-hmm

    29. CWChris Williamson1:16:26

        ... which is the most ridiculous stories that you can find on the internet. This guy leaves the house for two hours, but he lost his job the day before, and he comes back, and his wife's in bed with the milkman and the milkman's dog.

    30. FIFreya India1:16:38

        [laughs]
22. 1:17:40 – 1:23:27

    How Social Media Is Straining Relationships

    1. CWChris Williamson1:17:40

       system.

    2. FIFreya India1:17:40

       Well, if you look at Reddit in particular, you've, you've seen that study about, you know, the advices break up.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:17:45

       Yeah. Can you, uh, can you Google, um, Reddit relationship advice graph?

    4. FIFreya India1:17:50

       Yeah.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:17:50

       It'll come up.

    6. FIFreya India1:17:51

       And I think compromise is the least popular-

    7. CWChris Williamson1:17:53

       That's gone down

    8. FIFreya India1:17:54

       ... response.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:17:54

       Yeah. Was it, like, just talk it out? Go to therapy ticked up a little bit.

    10. FIFreya India1:17:58

        Yeah.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:17:59

        But it's, you should just break up.

    12. FIFreya India1:18:01

        Yeah.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:18:01

        And the interesting thing is ChatGPT, I think some huge proportion of its training data-

    14. FIFreya India1:18:06

        Is on Reddit

    15. CWChris Williamson1:18:06

        ... is on Reddit.

    16. FIFreya India1:18:07

        Yeah, yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:18:08

        Yeah.

    18. FIFreya India1:18:08

        It's true.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:18:08

        So that being said, I haven't heard many people say, I haven't heard many people say that ChatGPT has told them to break up.

    20. FIFreya India1:18:18

        True.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:18:19

        Uh, here it is. So 15 years of relationship advice on Reddit, 1,166,592 comments. End relationship or cut contact has gone from 30% to 50%.

    22. FIFreya India1:18:33

        Mm-hmm.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:18:33

        Communicate has dropped by, like, a quarter. Give space and time has dropped by even more. Uh, seek therapy and counseling ticked up a little bit. What's that yellow one? Set and respect boundaries. So kind of the, I guess, weaponizing of therapy language-

    24. FIFreya India1:18:50

        Yeah

    25. CWChris Williamson1:18:50

        ... a little bit there. And then compromise also dropped by probably half.

    26. FIFreya India1:18:57

        Yeah, I was gonna say, because some of the examples in the book I take from Reddit forums where actually I, I wonder what that advice is for. I'd love to see a breakdown, because sometimes it's a young woman presenting a completely valid opinion about her relationship. So she's saying, "I feel..." Let's say her partner's addicted to porn.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:19:19

        Mm.

    28. FIFreya India1:19:20

        And there wa- there was one example in the book where the, her partner had said to her-Um, he was addicted to porn, and he watches girls that look like her to try and reassure her. So don't worry [laughs]

    29. CWChris Williamson1:19:32

        Yeah. [laughs]

    30. FIFreya India1:19:32

        But she-
23. 1:23:27 – 1:27:17

    Are Women Actually Empathetic to Global Conflicts?

    1. CWChris Williamson1:23:28

       Megan Cooper, a British trauma-informed holistic therapist, has a podcast called High Love, in which she discusses violence against women, hypermasculinity, and the ecosystem of manufactured male victimhood. On Instagram, Cooper posted about conflict in Iran, Palestine, Beirut, and Sudan. "I don't know about you, but for the past few months, my bones have ached," she wrote in March. "The viscerality of the feminine wound." There's an interesting injection of sort of female-coded language into global-

    2. FIFreya India1:24:01

       Hmm

    3. CWChris Williamson1:24:01

       ... wars and conflict that I don't... I'm not... I don't, I don't fully see the link there.

    4. FIFreya India1:24:07

       No, I don't understand that. The only thing I can think is that it becomes, again, another form of signaling you are a good person.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:24:16

       Hmm. Look at how much I care.

    6. FIFreya India1:24:18

       Yeah. And these would be the same women who've, again, grown up with believing that what counts as being a good person is what they post. Um, and-

    7. CWChris Williamson1:24:28

       But also empathy. You know, to steelman that, this person is... If that's the truth, this person really cares about what's going on in the Middle East-

    8. FIFreya India1:24:38

       Mm

    9. CWChris Williamson1:24:38

       ... and is genuinely pained by it, and that, that's a kind of investment that's, uh, really impressive.

    10. FIFreya India1:24:43

        Yeah.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:24:45

        I don't, I don't know whether... I'd like... One of the concerns is that the incentives align on social media for empathy, in particular, a very sort of public, a very obvious kind of, "Look at how much I care. This is my... These are my tears for the people of the Sudan. These are-

    12. FIFreya India1:25:06

        Yeah

    13. CWChris Williamson1:25:06

        ... this is my concern. I want..." But I... That's a kind of... It can be, uh, deranging.

    14. FIFreya India1:25:15

        Mm-hmm.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:25:15

        And it can actually stop you from doing something that could help or focusing on something that you can have an impact on. It's interesting to me that, um, in the New Statesman article, October 7th was a huge turning point for lots of these women.

    16. FIFreya India1:25:29

        Yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:25:30

        But not the seven-seven bombing?

    18. FIFreya India1:25:32

        Yeah

    19. CWChris Williamson1:25:32

        But not issues that are much closer to home, not the grooming gangs crisis that we've got, which is directly affecting women. Like, the concern here, uh, the viscerality of the feminine wound, I'm gonna guess when we're talking about the Middle East, most of the casualties-

    20. FIFreya India1:25:50

        Mm-hmm

    21. CWChris Williamson1:25:50

        ... are probably going to be men, because they're the people that are military, uh, actors-

    22. FIFreya India1:25:55

        Yeah

    23. CWChris Williamson1:25:55

        ... on both sides. Same thing goes for the Ukraine, the same thing goes for Gaza.

    24. FIFreya India1:25:59

        Mm-hmm.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:25:59

        Like, yes, women and children are not enemy combatants or combatants at all. Sh- that- that's a huge fucking tragedy. But, like, it- it's more men that die in war.

    26. FIFreya India1:26:08

        Yeah.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:26:09

        And the viscerality of the feminine wound seems like a kind of weird injection of gender into something that's just a tragedy.

    28. FIFreya India1:26:16

        Yes.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:26:16

        And the same thing around October 7th, like, there are much closer to home issues that could trigger that, but for some reason haven't and didn't. And I wonder whether it's maybe because the grooming gangs in the UK is right coded.

    30. FIFreya India1:26:31

        Yeah, it's too polit- it's not politically correct. But also, it's interesting, in that New Statesman piece, did you read what that young woman spoke, what she said about her boyfriend being a Labrador?
24. 1:27:17 – 1:30:16

    The Real Reception of Freya’s Book

    1. CWChris Williamson1:27:17

       What's been the response to this by the press?

    2. FIFreya India1:27:21

       Um, to the New Statesman piece?

    3. CWChris Williamson1:27:22

       No, to yours.

    4. FIFreya India1:27:23

       Oh.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:27:24

       To your book.

    6. FIFreya India1:27:26

       Well, dangerous, [laughs] I think is one of the, one of the sort of key themes has been that... Actually, I think more from the press, it's been that it's not genuine empathy, ironically. So that-

    7. CWChris Williamson1:27:42

       Should have talked about the Sudan.

    8. FIFreya India1:27:44

       Yeah. Um, [laughs] so The Guardian said it was, like, a bit of a grift to talk about what's happening to girls. Um, the New Statesman said, you know, I can't possibly save anyone. Because their argument was because I'm selling the book, and so because I talk about consumerism, I can't actually sell the book. I just need to write it and just leave it on the floor. [laughs]

    9. CWChris Williamson1:28:06

       Hmm.

    10. FIFreya India1:28:06

        And I... [laughs] And so-

    11. CWChris Williamson1:28:07

        It's interesting for someone who's got a publication that's behind a paywall.

    12. FIFreya India1:28:10

        Yeah, well, you have to sell. Who isn't, who is, has so much integrity that they didn't even sell their anti-capitalist book?

    13. CWChris Williamson1:28:16

        Hmm.

    14. FIFreya India1:28:17

        They just gave it to people.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:28:18

        [laughs]

    16. FIFreya India1:28:18

        Like, you know. I just don't think that's an argument. But-

    17. CWChris Williamson1:28:21

        Yeah. It's also not an anti-capitalist book.

    18. FIFreya India1:28:23

        Yeah. But I think what's happening is there's been all kinds of criticism from all different directions, and some of them cancel each other out. And so I think the real thing is that I'm just not the politically correct person to say it.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:28:37

        Hmm.

    20. FIFreya India1:28:37

        And I don't have all the disclaimers. I don't talk about political issues in the Middle East. I don't talk about the patriarchy. I talk about what I genuinely think affected me and is affecting young women that I know.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:28:49

        Hmm.

    22. FIFreya India1:28:50

        And so I think they come up with all other angles of criticism rather than saying it's because she reaches conservative conclusions.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:28:58

        I don't understand why this isn't seen as progressive. Like, surely saying that these tech companies are abusing and commodifying children for profit-

    24. FIFreya India1:29:05

        Yeah

    25. CWChris Williamson1:29:06

        ... should be the thing that's being called out and pushed back against.

    26. FIFreya India1:29:11

        No, because they think that we live in a patriarchy, and the problem is men, and I'm sort of deflecting it onto social media platforms. Also, that social media platforms are where girls can learn about feminist ideas and express themselves and, you know, tho- those are good for women.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:29:30

        But they also hate billionaires.

    28. FIFreya India1:29:32

        Yeah. Well, that's the, that's an irony with all of these industries. I mean, a lot of these young women define their lives by DSM diagnoses that were basically voted by rich-

    29. CWChris Williamson1:29:46

        Tech companies

    30. FIFreya India1:29:46

        ... white men. No, the actual-
25. 1:30:16 – 1:35:39

    Is Divorce Being Glamourised?

    1. CWChris Williamson1:30:16

       How is being anti-divorce conservative? Or how is being pro-divorce progressive?

    2. FIFreya India1:30:24

       Because it, divorce is now how women self-actualize. And so, um, I talk in the book actually about going from the normalization of divorce to the glamorization of divorce, and then divorce being a means to self-fulfillment and self-expression.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:30:45

       People have divorce parties.

    4. FIFreya India1:30:46

       Yeah. And, uh, basically, I think that women interpret that as me saying women should stay with the absolute worst husbands at all costs. But really, I think that the normalization of and glamorization of divorce hurts women as well. It hurts wives, and it hurts children. Um-

    5. CWChris Williamson1:31:09

       Well, we're already hearing a lot, although it seems to be not fully backed up by the data, about the double shift.

    6. FIFreya India1:31:16

       Mm.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:31:16

       Women coming home from work and then having to clean up around the house. When you add in other types of especially emotional labor and emotional containment that men do, uh, the numbers start to fall away.

    8. FIFreya India1:31:26

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:31:26

       But if you're worried about the double shift, imagine the fucking double shift, but without the helper, because that's what it is, especially if it's young kids.

    10. FIFreya India1:31:34

        Yeah. Yeah.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:31:34

        If it's young kids-They, uh, Erica Komisar was-

    12. FIFreya India1:31:39

        She's amazing

    13. CWChris Williamson1:31:39

        ... on. She's-

    14. FIFreya India1:31:39

        That was a great episode.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:31:40

        Thank you. Her saying custody shouldn't be 50/50 at all-

    16. FIFreya India1:31:44

        Mm-hmm

    17. CWChris Williamson1:31:45

        ... because baby doesn't need dad as much as it needs mom. Maybe it needs dad more in later life, but people seem to break up between the ages of, like, six months and three years because it's really hard.

    18. FIFreya India1:31:56

        Mm-hmm.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:31:56

        And the cracks that were in the relationship before have been really exposed by this additional level of stress. If you break up during that time, you, y- you are going to be, as a mom, you're going to be the one that's gonna bear more of this burden.

    20. FIFreya India1:32:10

        Yeah.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:32:10

        And you don't have a dual income household anymore, so it's, like, quadruple burden.

    22. FIFreya India1:32:15

        Yeah.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:32:16

        I, I, I don't know. It, it, this, this sort of theme, the trend that we've... I'm kind of fascinated by, and it's good to see us kicking all of the tripwires of, are the sort of paradoxes-

    24. FIFreya India1:32:28

        Mm-hmm

    25. CWChris Williamson1:32:28

        ... of these hypersexualized, but also having less sex.

    26. FIFreya India1:32:32

        Yeah.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:32:32

        Sex is something which is really sacred, but also something that if it's done incorrectly can be incredibly traumatic, traumatic to you. Uh, uh, the world is more connected than ever before, and yet people feel more isolated.

    28. FIFreya India1:32:44

        Yeah.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:32:45

        Uh, we have independence is what you should strive for, and your career is your highest calling, and also maternity leave needs to be increased. Uh, billionaires are bad, but working for a company can be where you find your greatest meaning in life.

    30. FIFreya India1:32:58

        Yeah.
26. 1:35:39 – 1:41:02

    Are Progressive Ideals Internally Contradictory?

    1. FIFreya India1:35:39

       an issue.

    2. CWChris Williamson1:35:39

       I still can't understand. You know, there's this, uh, there's a bunch of different movements at the moment. Unsubscribe, Resist and Unsubscribe, Scott Galloway's thing.

    3. FIFreya India1:35:47

       Oh, yeah.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:35:47

       Have you seen that?

    5. FIFreya India1:35:47

       Yeah, yeah.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:35:48

       I, I think maybe Netflix is on there. There's a bunch of companies that are on there. Um, I don't know whether there's any social media platforms that are on there, but if you want to look at who are the companies making the most money-

    7. FIFreya India1:36:00

       Mm-hmm

    8. CWChris Williamson1:36:00

       ... that have the most influence, politically powerful, every left-leaning Gen Z girl should be deleting their Instagram account.

    9. FIFreya India1:36:10

       Mm-hmm.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:36:12

        They should be deleting their Instagram account. They should be deleting TikTok because of the abuses to, uh, w- workers in China.

    11. FIFreya India1:36:19

        Yeah.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:36:19

        Uh, and they shouldn't ever be using that. Also, you shouldn't be on X because Elon Musk's got loads of money, and they don't like his politics and how he influenced the American election.

    13. FIFreya India1:36:27

        Yeah.

    14. CWChris Williamson1:36:27

        I mean, I don't know who fucking owns Blue Sky. Maybe, maybe that is... as a company is run, that's, like, as socialist of a-

    15. FIFreya India1:36:35

        Yeah

    16. CWChris Williamson1:36:35

        ... capitalist company as you're gonna get. But it, that's where it seems self-serving-

    17. FIFreya India1:36:40

        Mm-hmm

    18. CWChris Williamson1:36:40

        ... or at least it feels a little bit hypocritical, where you say, well, if you're going to kick up a stink about these companies, but give a pass to the one that you think is cool and that you want to gain status on-

    19. FIFreya India1:36:54

        Yeah

    20. CWChris Williamson1:36:54

        ... because everybody else holds it in high esteem, that suggests to me that you're not talking about this in order to move the conversation forward. You're doing it because you want clout, which is why-

    21. FIFreya India1:37:04

        Yeah

    22. CWChris Williamson1:37:04

        ... you're not prepared to mute it yourself on the platform where you want the clout to be.

    23. FIFreya India1:37:08

        Yes. I, I, I, I genuinely get confused by some of the criticism because it's, it does seem to me so progressive to be skeptical, at least, of these companies, and to figure out the need. It's sort of a Marxist idea. What, what is the need that we have that is then being-

    24. CWChris Williamson1:37:30

        Mm-hmm

    25. FIFreya India1:37:30

        ... exploited and sold back to us?

    26. CWChris Williamson1:37:32

        Mm-hmm.

    27. FIFreya India1:37:32

        So something like BetterHelp, why do so many-young people think they need to be in therapy, young women especially. And why are these companies, these online therapy companies marketing themselves in a certain way? So for example, the therapy companies have now shifted to filling the role of almost parents, where they'll say-

    28. CWChris Williamson1:37:54

        Hmm

    29. FIFreya India1:37:55

        ... you know, "If you need to talk about dating or how you feel, or your crush or exams, you can come to us and-"

    30. CWChris Williamson1:38:01

        Just a fucking friend.
27. 1:41:02 – 1:42:45

    The Harshest Critiques of Freya’s Work

    1. CWChris Williamson1:41:02

       Can we look at... Can you just Google Freya India girls Goodreads, please? Jared, I wanna, I wanna do-

    2. FIFreya India1:41:08

       Let's see where I'm at

    3. CWChris Williamson1:41:08

       ... I wanna do some highlights of, uh, of our favorite ones. Um, it, it is really fucking deranging, and I think it's important, it's important for you to have people in your life that you can message. The... You know, I've got my group chat. Yep, there it is. Uh-

    4. FIFreya India1:41:27

       Oh, 3.2. 3.1.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:41:28

       3.16. 97. Here we go. Let's go down.

    6. FIFreya India1:41:31

       Let's go on one of the, some of the one stars. Handmaid's Tale.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:41:34

       Beautiful.

    8. FIFreya India1:41:35

       This-

    9. CWChris Williamson1:41:35

       "What starts off as disappointing through its lack of nuance and depth, make contradictory points and statistics that feel cherry-picked in order to back up points the author is desperately trying to make, quickly descends into conservative pearl clutching before ultimately concluding as a manifesto for girls getting back to family values and baby-making-"

    10. FIFreya India1:41:50

        Yeah

    11. CWChris Williamson1:41:50

        "... that could be written by Serena Joy of The Handmaid's Tale herself. The premise of this book is interesting and important, the reason I picked it up in the first place, yet somehow it manages to miss the mark entirely. Side note: I have never read the term age-old so many times in my life. Does no one edit anymore?"

    12. FIFreya India1:42:04

        Oh, that's painful.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:42:05

        Uh, "Cannot recommend. Absolutely not nuanced in any way. I so bad I went on a ti-"

    14. FIFreya India1:42:10

        No. Cli-

    15. CWChris Williamson1:42:10

        Oh, this person's-

    16. FIFreya India1:42:11

        Click the rant. There we go.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:42:12

        Oh, it's a blog post.

    18. FIFreya India1:42:14

        Without social media, trans rights or women's rights or therapy.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:42:17

        Freya India would prefer life without social media or trans rights or women's rights or therapy.

    20. FIFreya India1:42:23

        Yeah. [laughs]

    21. CWChris Williamson1:42:24

        Wow. I'm glad that it's got no comments.

    22. FIFreya India1:42:27

        Yeah.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:42:28

        It's hard growing up.

    24. FIFreya India1:42:29

        I mean-

    25. CWChris Williamson1:42:29

        I, I, yeah.

    26. FIFreya India1:42:31

        Transphobia and TERF rhetoric.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:42:33

        Oh. TERF rhetoric. I mean, look, you're in incredibly good company here. Um, but it is, it is strange. And that's not to say that we're right about everything, that you're right about everything that I am.

    28. FIFreya India1:42:43

        No.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:42:43

        But

28. 1:42:45 – 1:46:03

    We Need to Bind Over Love, Not Hatred

    1. CWChris Williamson1:42:45

       I have this, I have this theory around how you can tell if a content creator has your best interests at heart.

    2. FIFreya India1:42:50

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:42:51

       And it's whether or not the group that they belong to and say that you belong to too, are bound together over the mutual love of an in-group-

    4. FIFreya India1:43:01

       Yes

    5. CWChris Williamson1:43:01

       ... or the mutual hatred of an out-group.

    6. FIFreya India1:43:03

       Yes.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:43:04

       That is one of the earliest warning signs. Another one is when was the last time they admitted that they were wrong?

    8. FIFreya India1:43:09

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:43:10

       Another one is when was the last time that they surprised you-

    10. FIFreya India1:43:13

        Mm-hmm

    11. CWChris Williamson1:43:13

        ... with one of their takes? Or when did they bring somebody on that they disagree with-

    12. FIFreya India1:43:18

        Yeah

    13. CWChris Williamson1:43:19

        ... not to mock them, but to genuinely try and learn from them? So that's four. Someone once asked me how, what do I do to my content diet? And obviously I do this horrendously and I follow loads of people that I shouldn't do, and it-

    14. FIFreya India1:43:29

        Yeah

    15. CWChris Williamson1:43:30

        ... wrecks my nervous system. But that, like, when was the last time that you were surprised by this person's take?

    16. FIFreya India1:43:38

        Mm-hmm.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:43:38

        If they're just a cookie cutter, you know one of their perspectives, and from it you can accurately predict everything else-

    18. FIFreya India1:43:43

        Yeah

    19. CWChris Williamson1:43:43

        ... they're obviously not a serious thinker.

    20. FIFreya India1:43:46

        I also think with my book in particular, because I don't know how to phrase it, but because I have some unpredictable takes as well.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:43:55

        Mm-hmm.

    22. FIFreya India1:43:55

        So for example, it's mostly about commodification of women, which conservatives don't often talk about. I think that I get more hate as a result of that. If I was just-

    23. CWChris Williamson1:44:04

        Because you're seen as an unreliable ally as opposed to an outright conservative.

    24. FIFreya India1:44:07

        Yeah. If I was just a right-wing political influencer, I don't think I would get this amount of-

    25. CWChris Williamson1:44:12

        Bingo

    26. FIFreya India1:44:12

        ... targeted hate. It's because I sort of operate in the middle, and I am genuinely figuring things out. And so I think that becomes almost more threatening. But I'm fine. I don't mind people criticizing the book, but there's a sort of tone of criticism that is, I am evil. [laughs] Like that-

    27. CWChris Williamson1:44:33

        Snarky, dismissive, judgmental.

    28. FIFreya India1:44:35

        Yeah. And also, you know, I read loads of books I disagree with.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:44:41

        Mm.

    30. FIFreya India1:44:41

        I read loads of books with liberal assumptions that are sort of weaved into the book. Every book I read about social media is pretty much like that. But I never feel the urge to go on a 2,000-word rant-
29. 1:46:03 – 1:51:11

    Do Tax Systems Discourage Motherhood?

    1. CWChris Williamson1:46:03

       ... that criticize the most. I mean, one other thing that we haven't talked about that I thought was fucking insane was the reframing of the potential to give mothers in the UK a tax benefit in the same way that-

    2. FIFreya India1:46:18

       Oh, yeah

    3. CWChris Williamson1:46:18

       ... mums in Hungary got it-

    4. FIFreya India1:46:20

       Yeah

    5. CWChris Williamson1:46:21

       ... as an inverse tax penalty-

    6. FIFreya India1:46:24

       Mm-hmm

    7. CWChris Williamson1:46:24

       ... on chil- women who want to be childfree.

    8. FIFreya India1:46:27

       Well, that New Statesman piece said, uh, the, there was a young woman worried about reform forcing them to have babies, and that's how they framed it.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:46:35

       Mm-hmm.

    10. FIFreya India1:46:36

        So they, they think reform will force them to have children. And, and that's why I laughed at The Handmaid's Tale because it's like they have one story-

    11. CWChris Williamson1:46:46

        Mm-hmm

    12. FIFreya India1:46:46

        ... that they just extrapolate onto everything.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:46:48

        Well, it's the same with history, right? Because nobody knows any history except for a tiny bit of Nazi Germany-

    14. FIFreya India1:46:56

        Yeah

    15. CWChris Williamson1:46:56

        ... everybody just defaults to Nazi and Hitler.

    16. FIFreya India1:46:59

        Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:46:59

        It's the only piece of history that they know. In the same way as it's the only piece of literature that-

    18. FIFreya India1:47:03

        Mm-hmm

    19. CWChris Williamson1:47:04

        ... can be used for this. It's Handmaid's Tale. It's like, well, if you offer, what is it, 25% off your income tax for the first kid, 50% for the second one, and 100% for the rest of your life if you have three or more. I think that's what it is in Hungary.

    20. FIFreya India1:47:20

        Yeah.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:47:20

        Something like that. [laughs] How can you say that that's penalizing women who don't have kids? Like, it's just adding to the system. Now, you could say with anchoring bias, no one should ever pay any tax. That's fine.

    22. FIFreya India1:47:33

        Yeah.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:47:34

        But if you're saying we need to give more money... A lot of the, the reasons, the justifications that are given for why women aren't having more kids is because of economic conditions. It's cost of living crisis. It's a, a, a fear of being, uh, abandoned by their partner.

    24. FIFreya India1:47:48

        Yeah.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:47:48

        Divorced, and then they're not gonna be able to afford to keep themselves and the kids alive, et cetera. You're, "Okay, well, let's incentivize that." You go, "Well, you're persecuting women that don't have kids."

    26. FIFreya India1:47:57

        Yeah.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:47:57

        The women that don't have kids are being disadvantaged. You go, "No, that's not the case. That's where-

    28. FIFreya India1:48:01

        Yeah

    29. CWChris Williamson1:48:02

        ... everybody is right now."

    30. FIFreya India1:48:03

        Yeah.
30. 1:51:11 – 1:52:42

    Have Women’s Preferences Fundamentally Shifted?

    1. CWChris Williamson1:51:11

       do you think that women's preferences have fundamentally changed, or is it just the environment that they're in?

    2. FIFreya India1:51:18

       Uh, I think they're the same, but as I said before, they're sort of being funneled toward a fake simulation of the thing.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:51:29

       Mm.

    4. FIFreya India1:51:29

       And so-

    5. CWChris Williamson1:51:30

       It's kind of a big Ponzi scheme.

    6. FIFreya India1:51:32

       Yeah. It's like, even as we were talking about with empathy, I feel like a lot of... You know, some- sometimes conservatives will say young women are radically left wing because they're evil and they want to tear down Western civilization. I think a lot of the time it is well-intentioned, as in they want to look compassionate, they want to look good in front of their friends, but it's being funneled in a weird direction. So it's strange that you have all of these young women in Britain caring so much about the Middle East and then talking about their boyfriend with zero empathy at all.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:52:11

       Mm. Mm-hmm.

    8. FIFreya India1:52:11

       And I think it's similar with things that are happening online where again, you have a need for belonging, but you're getting it through YouTube. That's where your family and friends are being simulated somewhat.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:52:25

       Mm.

    10. FIFreya India1:52:25

        You have a need to get advice from your parents and you're getting it from a BetterHelp influencer. And so I think a lot of the challenges my generation has are not necessarily new, but we have way more simulations than previous generations did.

31. 1:52:42 – 1:54:49

    How Do We Know When the Left Has Gone Too Far?

    1. CWChris Williamson1:52:42

       How do we know when the left's gone too far?

    2. FIFreya India1:52:45

       When they rate my book one star. [laughs]

    3. CWChris Williamson1:52:47

       Ah, there it is. There it is.

    4. FIFreya India1:52:49

       Um, I think when it-

    5. CWChris Williamson1:52:51

       You know what I mean? 'Cause this is an old Peterson thing-

    6. FIFreya India1:52:53

       Mm

    7. CWChris Williamson1:52:54

       ... that it's obvious when the right goes too far.

    8. FIFreya India1:52:57

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:52:57

       But we don't have the same sort of rules. Y- the, the entire New Statesman article is saying the skew of women to the left-

    10. FIFreya India1:53:06

        Mm

    11. CWChris Williamson1:53:06

        ... the radical left-

    12. FIFreya India1:53:08

        Yeah

    13. CWChris Williamson1:53:08

        ... is more aggressive and is, I, I have to assume is, they think is too far, even as something that is left of center.

    14. FIFreya India1:53:14

        Yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:53:15

        And you go, okay, well how do we know? Because how does it show up? It's like just obscene amounts of empathy-

    16. FIFreya India1:53:21

        Mm-hmm

    17. CWChris Williamson1:53:21

        ... that if you turn empathy up to 11 just becomes a different type of judgmental tribalism.

    18. FIFreya India1:53:26

        Yeah. I don't think-

    19. CWChris Williamson1:53:27

        Because care for groups has to be constrained to one group, and then it means that you're not that group, so you're the oppressor, not the oppressed.

    20. FIFreya India1:53:32

        Yes. I don't actually think it can go too far. Um, because I think about being... You know, some- sometimes people will say, "Oh, she's, she's had success because she's pandering to the right-wingers."

    21. CWChris Williamson1:53:48

        Mm.

    22. FIFreya India1:53:49

        But you can, even if you're slightly conservative on one topic and all of your other opinions were very progressive, you're immediately coded as right wing. So there's barely any room to, um, even be moderately conservative or even just curious about the conservative approach. So a lot of my interviews have been guilt by association. It's just people that I speak to and who will listen to me.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:54:14

        Mm.

    24. FIFreya India1:54:15

        Then you get coded as too far, too right wing. So there's barely any room on the right. But I think there's so much room on the left.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:54:22

        Mm.

    26. FIFreya India1:54:23

        Um, you can say you're a communist and, and write a book about caring for girls and, and no one will, you know, scrutinize your motives. But if you write a book about caring for girls and a few of your opinions happen to be conservative, then there's no way that you have genuine care for them. You have to just be a political operator.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:54:45

        Screw you, Freya, Freya India.

    28. FIFreya India1:54:47

        Yeah.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:54:47

        That's what I say. Screw you, Freya India.

32. 1:54:49 – 1:55:19

    Find Out More About Freya

    1. FIFreya India1:54:49

       [laughs]

    2. CWChris Williamson1:54:49

       Uh, you're great.

    3. FIFreya India1:54:50

       Thank you.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:54:50

       I think you're so fantastic. Book's brilliant. Blog's brilliant. Where should people go to check out everything you're doing?

    5. FIFreya India1:54:55

       Yeah, so just my Substack, freyaindia.co.uk. Um, I'm not on Instagram or TikTok.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:55:01

       I'm excited to see what you do to get in trouble next.

    7. FIFreya India1:55:03

       Thank you. You too. [laughs]

    8. CWChris Williamson1:55:05

       All right. Bye everyone. Dude, awesome.

    9. FIFreya India1:55:09

       Amazing.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:55:10

        So good.

    11. FIFreya India1:55:10

        Thank you. [outro music]

    12. CWChris Williamson1:55:13

        Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, another one that I know you'll love is just here.

Episode duration: 1:55:20