The Fundamentals Of Meditation | Cory Allen

1. 0:00 – 1:50

   Intro

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      (wind blowing) Good morning. This week, I am joined by none other than Corey Allen. He is an author, a meditation teacher, and host of the Astral Hustle podcast. He's also the creator of my favorite guided meditation course, Release Into Now, and has completed literally thousands and thousands of hours of mindfulness practice during his life. My intention was to get someone who is of the highest caliber, as a meditation expert, that I could find, and get them to explain the absolute basics on a podcast. The thinking behind that was kind of like if you wanted to learn how to throw a jab and you got taught by Floyd Mayweather, you might actually think, "Well, his body of knowledge is significantly wider than this, but if he can distill down all of that knowledge into the fundamentals, I am going to get the best start within this discipline that I can." Hopefully going to break down some of the barriers and preconceptions that you may have about meditation if you've never done it before. And if you have done it before, Corey is going to be able to explain how to deepen your practice. And focusing on the fundamentals, irrelevant of however many hours you've put in, is never a bad thing to do. So here we go. Corey Allen. (electronic music)

2. 1:50 – 4:00

   Introducing Cory

   1. CWChris Williamson1:50

      Corey Allen, welcome to Modern Wisdom.

   2. CACory Allen1:52

      Thank you. Thanks for having me, man.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:54

      Very good to hear from you. It's really strange to hear your voice for once without there being binaural beats in the background.

   4. CACory Allen2:02

      (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson2:03

      It's-

   6. CACory Allen2:03

      Well, I could put some on if you'd like.

   7. CWChris Williamson2:06

      (laughs) That would be funny. Yeah, the, um, the meditation course, Release Into Now, that you did through Aubrey Marcus has been, um ... I think I can pretty much recite it now, verbatim. I could, I could probably do it back and give my best Corey Allen impression-

   8. CACory Allen2:22

      (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson2:22

      ... and actually, (laughs) actually give it back to you.

   10. CACory Allen2:25

       That's funny, is that I would probably barely recognize it. I, I have vague memories of what's in it at this point.

   11. CWChris Williamson2:33

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CACory Allen2:33

       But, um, you know how that goes.

   13. CWChris Williamson2:35

       Yeah, for sure, for sure. So, uh, a lot of listeners will have heard me dance around the topic of mindfulness practice and, and meditation over the last few months. And I think what I, what I really wanted to do was get someone like yourself, who has a wealth of experience with practice and understands it from the ground floor up, and really just start to un-package it. I think meditation, for a lot of people, is like, kinda like maybe a stretching routine. It's something that they know that they probably should be doing, but that it sounds like there's maybe quite a lot of barriers to entry. Uh, it's maybe a little bit complicated, they're not sure if they can complete the practice on their own. And for a common person who hasn't ever been exposed to mindfulness or meditation before, I do think that it can be, um, it can be a daunting prospect to go into something which is, which is, from the outside looking in, very complex. I don't know whether, in your circles now, whether you know, uh, whether you regularly interact with anyone who doesn't do mindfulness practice (laughs) anymore, but certainly on my side, there is. There's a lot of people who I think would really benefit from it, so hopefully today we can, um, we can explain and we can unpack just what mindfulness practice is and, and how everybody can benefit

3. 4:00 – 7:47

   The problem with meditation

   1. CWChris Williamson4:00

      from it.

   2. CACory Allen4:01

      Sure, yeah. And firstly, I mean, most people I know I would say do not have a meditation practice.

   3. CWChris Williamson4:08

      Is that true? Wow.

   4. CACory Allen4:10

      Yeah, yeah. Just because, um, you know ... I don't know, maybe 10 to 15% max of the people I know do.

   5. CWChris Williamson4:19

      Okay.

   6. CACory Allen4:20

      And, um, let me just identify the problem from the outset. You know, there's a lot of confusion, and people have resistance towards getting into meditation, because as you said, it might seem intimidating or confusing or something unreachable or unattainable. The reason for that, in my opinion, is -- and I wrote about this a bit in my book -- was that meditation is an experience. It's an experiential thing. It's, it ... a, you know, internal thing of the mind, right? It's not something you can describe.

   7. CWChris Williamson4:56

      Mm-hmm.

   8. CACory Allen4:56

      And so the example I use in my book is that, if you were to, you know, from a, from like, as if you were looking out of a camera, describe the narrative of someone standing up in their room, going into the kitchen and getting a cup of coffee, one could write that description. And then another person could read that description and get the general notion that there's a person in a room, and they're getting up, and they're going into their kitchen, whatever that may look like-

   9. CWChris Williamson5:22

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CACory Allen5:22

       ... and they're getting a coffee. Now, that's an easy picture to paint in one's mind, and your brain will fill in all of the gaps and pieces of the story that, uh, you, you need as connective tissue to create that narrative in your imagination. But the problem with, uh, meditation is, is that ... So now take this same, uh, situation.

   11. CWChris Williamson5:44

       Yes.

   12. CACory Allen5:45

       And now write out what the experience of a person standing up in their room and going into their kitchen and making a cup of coffee is, so clearly that you, as the reader, can know the first-person point of view, feeling with all of the sensory input and all of the contents that enter the consciousness of someone who's doing that. To express that experience to another person-... is so impossible that, uh, it, it's, it's really, you know, it's, uh, ultimately can't even been done. It's

   13. CWChris Williamson6:19

       It would be an infinite amount of information, right?

   14. CACory Allen6:21

       Exactly.

   15. CWChris Williamson6:21

       It would be an o- an overwhelming read. (laughs) Yeah.

   16. CACory Allen6:24

       Exactly. So, take a, take a hundred years of people who aren't great e- writers even, all trying to get at in writing about the thing, the experience-

   17. CWChris Williamson6:36

       Yeah.

   18. CACory Allen6:36

       ... i- including all of the fat and all of the metaphysical, uh, nonsense, and, uh, you know, all... You know, all the stuff that, that can go along with that. Everyone's trying to describe an intangible experience. And so, there are just mountains and mountains of descriptions about in- this intangible experience-

   19. CWChris Williamson6:55

       Yeah.

   20. CACory Allen6:55

       ... which have no meaning inherently because they are relative only to the person that wrote them, 'cause they're writing about their experience. So whenever an, uh, an individual who is perhaps only hearing about the idea or in- or only become interested in meditation goes to read a book about it or goes to look for some type of instruction, and they find 500 words on some, you know, bozo trying to describe an experience, it is v- inherently very confusing and it's off-putting.

   21. CWChris Williamson7:26

       Yeah.

   22. CACory Allen7:26

       You know, it'd, would be off-putting to me as well. So, I think that the idea, you know, the best m- That's, that's the, the problem. I think the solution, you know, to break that barrier of entry is to not write or necessarily talk as much about the experience, but to talk about methods that can lead people to have that experience

4. 7:47 – 11:36

   The solution

   1. CACory Allen7:47

      themselves.

   2. CWChris Williamson7:48

      The path, not the destination, right?

   3. CACory Allen7:50

      Sure, yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson7:51

      Yeah, I think, uh, I think it's very prohibitive because, as you say, everyone's experience, especially of mindfulness, which is inherently so unique and individual to the person, their brain, uh, their particular brain setup, where they go to when their thoughts begin to quieten. Um, there's more... I think I'm right in saying there's more connections in one square centimeter of human brain matter than there are stars in the galaxy. And when-

   5. CACory Allen8:20

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson8:20

      ... you're trying to describe an experience manifesting from something as complex as that, it's, um... (laughs) Yeah, you're right. It leads to a lot of information, a lot of disinformation as well, and neither of that's really helpful in, in getting people to buy into the process, so to speak. Um-

   7. CACory Allen8:39

      Yeah, and, and you hit it right there. I mean, what is helpful? That's what I always look at, man, is like w- whether I'm talking about something more, uh, ordinary or I'm talking about something more experimental or theoretical, like I, I don't really talk about it unless it's useful because why just add fat to the conversation (laughs) -

   8. CWChris Williamson9:00

      Yeah.

   9. CACory Allen9:01

      ... in general?

   10. CWChris Williamson9:01

       Yeah.

   11. CACory Allen9:01

       It's just in life, really. But-

   12. CWChris Williamson9:03

       Yeah, for sure.

   13. CACory Allen9:03

       ... but especially within things that are, that are intangible and, and transient.

   14. CWChris Williamson9:08

       Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Would you say that there's a, a shift at the moment towards meditation and mindfulness becoming a little bit more, sort of newsworthy, a little bit more, um, prevalent in day-to-day discourse? I- It's being, being covered more commercially, I suppose.

   15. CACory Allen9:26

       It certainly seems like it. I mean, p- particularly over the last five years, I think there's been a real awareness. And over the last, I think, two or three years, I started seeing meditation and mindfulness on the cover of magazines at the checkout at the grocery store-

   16. CWChris Williamson9:39

       Yeah.

   17. CACory Allen9:40

       ... you know? And, uh, now, I think b- there have been people who have, you know, a lot of visibility who are, uh, you know, promoting it and what have you. And I do think it's becoming a much more mainstream, uh, type of idea and practice because it works.

   18. CWChris Williamson9:58

       Yeah.

   19. CACory Allen9:58

       And I think people are figuring it out. And also, I think there is a, uh, you know, un- enough of the badly translated Eastern wisdom-

   20. CWChris Williamson10:09

       (laughs)

   21. CACory Allen10:09

       ... from the '60s and '70s in America anyway-

   22. CWChris Williamson10:11

       (laughs)

   23. CACory Allen10:11

       ... that's kind of f- It's had time to kind of fall away and age and die, whether it be a generational thing or just that people finally shook it off. And there's a real nice, reasonable secular approach to mindfulness and meditation because it doesn't need any religious context. It has nothing to do-

   24. CWChris Williamson10:27

       You don't need the theology or the, the ideology behind it, right?

   25. CACory Allen10:31

       Y- yeah, and also, I mean, th- that, that also presupposes that there was any to begin with-

   26. CWChris Williamson10:36

       Yes.

   27. CACory Allen10:37

       ... in, in a lot of these schools. You know, some schools of, of Eastern thought contain meditation as a practice, and those philosophies contain spirituality. But if you look at some, you know, aspect, there, there are certainly unquestionably a lot of, uh, other schools which have zero real sp- you know, quote, unquote, "spiritual" aspect to them at all. And I think one doesn't, uh, o- you know, need or, or really shouldn't seek, I think, uh, what a person would think of when they hear the word spirituality through meditation because really, uh, uh, you're just seeking your own mind.

   28. CWChris Williamson11:13

       Yeah.

   29. CACory Allen11:13

       And unless you are looking to your own mind as your spiritual master, which, I mean, I actually have no problem with that-

   30. CWChris Williamson11:20

       (laughs)
5. 11:36 – 17:29

   Secular society

   1. CACory Allen11:36

      to it.

   2. CWChris Williamson11:36

      I think it makes it a lot more inclusive by doing it in that way. It permits a much wider... You say we're in an increasingly secular society. We need to... If, if mindfulness practice is going to be widely adopted, there, there needs to be some principles which everyone can follow and it can't be, these are principles if you're from the West, these are principles if you're from o- o- a particular, uh, religious background or a particular, um, strata of society. That, that's not very helpful, is it? And I think you're right. Exporting for a secular society, um, is a, a, a much more inclusive way.... of getting people started.

   3. CACory Allen12:16

      Yeah, and, and interestingly, I'm, I'm not so sure that we're in an increasingly secular society. I think that, you know, the practice of mindfulness and meditation has become more secular, uh, within its own-

   4. CWChris Williamson12:27

      Yeah.

   5. CACory Allen12:27

      ... within itself. Um, do you find or do you think that, from what you observe, that societies in general are becoming more secular?

   6. CWChris Williamson12:35

      I'd definitely say so in the UK.

   7. CACory Allen12:37

      Mm-hmm.

   8. CWChris Williamson12:38

      I think, I think so. Uh, I can't speak for anywhere else. That's the bulk of my experience. Um, yeah, I think a lot of people are becoming very disenchanted with what would have been the old guard mainstay of, uh, um, what communities are built around. A lot of, uh ... There was a really interesting point that came up on a Joe Rogan podcast not long ago where he said that he thinks one of the reasons that team sports and, uh, community sports like CrossFit are getting such prevalence at the moment is that previously, the community that people would have had on a Sunday when they go to church and that sense of belonging to a group, that group identity, is falling away more increasingly. Now, again, I can't speak for the UK or for the USA or anywhere else. But in the UK, I, I certainly think (sighs) people are being more forward-thinking and less s- less s- um, spiritually minded in the traditional sense of the word.

   9. CACory Allen13:36

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CWChris Williamson13:37

       But yeah, I, I, I'm ... Would you, would you say that it's different in your experience?

   11. CACory Allen13:42

       Well, it's just hard to tell. You know, like I can s-

   12. CWChris Williamson13:45

       The sample size is, uh-

   13. CACory Allen13:46

       Right.

   14. CWChris Williamson13:46

       (laughs)

   15. CACory Allen13:46

       It's like I can observe my subjective take on it from the input and the things I receive. Uh, of cour- ... You know, like I wouldn't have thought that Trump would be the president of America either.

   16. CWChris Williamson13:58

       (laughs)

   17. CACory Allen13:59

       So, (laughs) so, you know, I mean, I ... That, that really collapsed my paradigm of, of speculative-

   18. CWChris Williamson14:04

       (laughs)

   19. CACory Allen14:04

       ... uh, trust for myself. (laughs) So it is hard to tell.

   20. CWChris Williamson14:07

       I, Corey Allen, can never trust me, Corey Allen, ever again. (laughs)

   21. CACory Allen14:11

       (laughs) That's for sure, man.

   22. CWChris Williamson14:12

       You're officially not welcome.

   23. CACory Allen14:13

       So, you know, I don't, I don't really know. I, I feel like, at the very least, conversations about, uh, you know, the human condition without any spirituality or, you know, monotheistic spirituality-

   24. CWChris Williamson14:28

       Yeah.

   25. CACory Allen14:28

       ... anyway, have become more public. That seems-

   26. CWChris Williamson14:32

       Oh, absolutely.

   27. CACory Allen14:32

       ... to be the case. Um, and I don't ... You know, this is ... We can get into a, a whole different conversation about, uh, you know, Middle East and, and, uh, Islam and things like that. I don't ... You know, because the, the change and I think that a lot of this tension that is being caused with world, you know, religions of the world and, and in society right now is because, (laughs) largely to do with the internet. Because the internet is creating a ... And this also feeds in meditation, is that, man, i- it's like this mirror of the collective consciousness that people weren't ready for.

   28. CWChris Williamson15:09

       Yeah.

   29. CACory Allen15:09

       So e- ... A hundred years ago or even 50 years ago, you were on your small area of town or whatever, doing your thing, minding your own business. And you knew the people around you and you knew the, the, your world views and experiences and, and themes of (laughs) what these people thought around you. And that was sort of the scope of your own experience.

   30. CWChris Williamson15:28

       Kind of nicely, nicely insulated, right?
6. 17:29 – 20:35

   Increased existential crises

   1. CWChris Williamson17:29

      wonder if there's been an increase in existential crises from-

   2. CACory Allen17:32

      Oh, yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson17:33

      ... from this. (laughs)

   4. CACory Allen17:34

      (laughs) Oh, yeah, man.

   5. CWChris Williamson17:36

      This overwhelming amount of information coming in. Yeah, I think you're right. A lot of the time, especially when I started, so I started my meditation practice, and the state and trait changes, which we'll get into in a, in a second. For me, the most noticeable thing was just being able to create that second moment breath between something occurring or me having a thought and me reacting to it.

   6. CACory Allen18:02

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson18:02

      Now, rolling it a little bit further down the line, there's, uh, that's kind of a (laughs) ... Uh, that's definitely not the end point. But even just having that little bit of a second extra to consider what has happened and notice it and interject makes such a, um-... such a profound change day to day in how you deal with situations. I think you're right, if, if there was a little bit more mindfulness, only a little bit more mindfulness worldwide, there would be an awful lot less, uh, an- antagonistic problems, a lot less aggression between people, a lot less m- misunderstanding as well-

   8. CACory Allen18:40

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson18:40

      ... because the narratives that people are attaching to my experience, his experience, their story, my story, I think a lot of that would be viewed with a much, a much more open set of eyes.

   10. CACory Allen18:51

       Yeah. And just the causality of one person's short-sighted reflexive expression of momentary negativity or frustration is so immense that I think it's hard for people to really conceive of.

   11. CWChris Williamson19:07

       Yeah.

   12. CACory Allen19:08

       Because, you know, one person has some dumb response to something, and they put out some, you know, they, a nasty comment or they treat someone else negatively in the moment, then it's literally like passing the hot potato of suffering onto someone else.

   13. CWChris Williamson19:24

       (laughs)

   14. CACory Allen19:24

       You know, and that person holds that, and then they're tossing it up in the air-

   15. CWChris Williamson19:27

       Yeah.

   16. CACory Allen19:27

       ... and then they're, they're a little wild enough-

   17. CWChris Williamson19:28

       Who's gonna, who's gonna be on the receiving end next?

   18. CACory Allen19:30

       Exactly. And it's literally like... I, I've thought about this with illnesses too, but like, it's the same thing with anger or some, you know, negative emotion like that, is that, how long has that shockwave been going on? Like, was this-

   19. CWChris Williamson19:43

       It's a pathogen, yeah? It's just moving through.

   20. CACory Allen19:45

       Yeah. Like, did... Well, I got a cold, you know, a couple of months ago and I was thinking like, d- did, like, N- Napoleon have this cold, like two C-

   21. CWChris Williamson19:51

       Yeah. Where did this start? Yeah, exactly. (laughs)

   22. CACory Allen19:53

       (laughs) Right. How long is this getting passed around?

   23. CWChris Williamson19:55

       That's so funny.

   24. CACory Allen19:55

       And I mean, the anger thing, the, the negative emotion thing is the same thing, you know. I'm a big fan of, not repression, but of a, (laughs) a thing I call, uh, or I have heard called and just end up calling, I'm not sure where, but, um, you know, uh, turning poison into medicine, or they also... another term for it is stopping the wheel of, of karma. Uh, and that's just like whenever you get something from somebody, being able to be high-minded enough to not pass it on.

   25. CWChris Williamson20:24

       Yeah.

   26. CACory Allen20:24

       And that's like snuffing out those- (laughs)

   27. CWChris Williamson20:27

       Yeah. There's the, there's the-

   28. CACory Allen20:28

       ... those negative shockwaves.

   29. CWChris Williamson20:28

       ... the forest, the forest fire's kind of been burned out ahead of it and it doesn't go any further, so to speak.

   30. CACory Allen20:34

       Right,

7. 20:35 – 26:25

   Corys mindfulness practice

   1. CACory Allen20:35

      right.

   2. CWChris Williamson20:35

      Um, so can you give us a little bit of background to your mindfulness practice, what you've started doing and, and where you're at now?

   3. CACory Allen20:45

      Yeah, sure. Um, let's see. I started really, uh, really young. Um, I'm 36. I started, you know, in my mid-teenage years. Essentially, in the '90s, there wasn't a lot of information around, arou- as far as really available. The internet was sort of just, uh, sizzling as, as opposed to-

   4. CWChris Williamson21:06

      (laughs) Yeah.

   5. CACory Allen21:06

      ... being a raging fire as it is now. And man, you know, just my environmental experience, and also the happenstance or bad luck or good luck of how I saw the world, however you'd like to look at it, created a, an immense amount of suffering and anxiety, you know, an emotional suffering w- within myself. And the environment that I, you know, was in was only compounding that. And I had a lot of energy, and not in the metaphysical sense, but just in the sense of vitality at the time.

   6. CWChris Williamson21:38

      Yep.

   7. CACory Allen21:38

      And, uh, I've gotten older, so that's gone away now. (laughs)

   8. CWChris Williamson21:42

      (laughs)

   9. CACory Allen21:42

      But I, I had, I had a lot of energy, man. And, and I realized that if I... you know, I needed to find a way to put that in a direction or else it had the potential to be bad, you know? And so since I, I don't know, I just had an intuition about that, and I got very much into philosophy, you know, Western, Eastern philosophy at, at a young age, kind of by chance really. And I began, after I was reading about, um... you know, I was, began reading Nietzsche a lot whenever I was-

   10. CWChris Williamson22:13

       Yep.

   11. CACory Allen22:13

       ... in my mid-teen years. And I recognized it, you know, for the first time I thought, "Oh, this is like... this is how I think."

   12. CWChris Williamson22:20

       (laughs)

   13. CACory Allen22:20

       It's not what I think per se, but it's how-

   14. CWChris Williamson22:22

       Yeah.

   15. CACory Allen22:22

       ... it's the way that my mind, you know, conduits of my mind kind of connect. And then I moved over to Eastern philosophy and I realized, "Oh, this is more of what I think and how I think in some ways." You know, much more themes of equanimity and-

   16. CWChris Williamson22:35

       Yeah.

   17. CACory Allen22:35

       ... and peacefulness and kind of a universality, and also a lack of emphasis on the individual. Like, I don't think we're special, and I appreciate the, the... (laughs) and like take that, you know, with a grain of salt, but-

   18. CWChris Williamson22:46

       Yeah. (laughs)

   19. CACory Allen22:47

       ... I, I, I mean, I don't mean that like, that in a nihilistic way. I mean that in a sense that like we're all just these momentary little, uh, wiggly, fleshy, you know, worms of, of conscious awareness that are here and then are not here. And like, there's nothing wrong with that, the fact that that's the case. It's, it's a beautiful thing. It's like, reality is as e- you know, in human existence is equally beautiful as it is bleak.

   20. CWChris Williamson23:13

       Yes.

   21. CACory Allen23:13

       And people clinch up with that because they think, "No, no, life sh- should be seen as this like happy ending Disney-"

   22. CWChris Williamson23:20

       Flawless.

   23. CACory Allen23:21

       "... type fairy tale." Yeah. And it's like, yeah, it, it is, man, but it's also... (laughs) like, you gotta acknowledge the, the, the sour in the sweet and sour or else the sauce doesn't have the twang.

   24. CWChris Williamson23:30

       Yeah.

   25. CACory Allen23:30

       And like the, the reason for life is the twang, right?

   26. CWChris Williamson23:33

       Yeah.

   27. CACory Allen23:33

       Anyway. So yeah, man. Uh, I appreciate the idea of... in, you know, in Buddhism of there not really being a soul or anything like that. That's something that resonates well with me.

   28. CWChris Williamson23:43

       That impermanence.

   29. CACory Allen23:43

       So... Right, right. And so, uh, another thing, you know, as a side note, in my book, I, I write about the upside of impermanence, because people think of impermanence and they're always like, "What a bummer," you know, everything rots and everything just dissolves.

   30. CWChris Williamson23:56

       Yeah.
8. 26:25 – 29:28

   Viktor Frankl

   1. CACory Allen26:25

      And-

   2. CWChris Williamson26:25

      Have you read, um, Man's Search For Meaning by Viktor Frankl?

   3. CACory Allen26:28

      I have, yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson26:29

      Yeah. So man's final bastion is his ability to choose his response in any given situation, right? It's that-

   5. CACory Allen26:38

      Right.

   6. CWChris Williamson26:38

      It's this, the, the thought that your ability to respond and your thoughts within your mind are yours, and they'll always be yours.

   7. CACory Allen26:48

      Mm-hmm. Uh, except for, I, I, I love that idea, but I also kind of believe in de- determinism. (laughs)

   8. CWChris Williamson26:54

      I get it. (laughs)

   9. CACory Allen26:54

      As far as free will goes. So, you know-

   10. CWChris Williamson26:56

       Yeah.

   11. CACory Allen26:57

       You know, man, what happened-

   12. CWChris Williamson26:57

       It's difficult. It's d- it's, it's kind of a, it's interesting, isn't it, to hold both of those things at the same time?

   13. CACory Allen27:02

       Yeah, yeah. It's like, I think that my, uh, you know, uh, ability to choose my choices is really beautiful. (laughs)

   14. CWChris Williamson27:09

       Y- yeah, that's a very, very good way to put it.

   15. CACory Allen27:13

       (laughs) Eh, so, right, man. So I was doing the, you know, g- into meditation like that. And it eventually just, uh, became this very fundamental aspect of my, my existence, and carried on. So even whenever my life began to balance, probably much because of meditation in a lot of ways, um, it, uh, just continued on with the practice. And I just continued exploring. I'm a very inquisitive little critter, and I, uh, I'm always, uh, spent a lot of time, especially in my early 20s, like trying to find the edges of reality in my own perception and, like, what my consciousness was. And I did a lot of experimentation, uh, in, in a lot of different realms trying to understand that. And what's interesting from my point of view now, uh, was in that time, you know, especially in my late teens and, you know, doing a lot of, uh, psychedelics and meditation, just going as far deep as I could, uh, with these things and, you know, thought experiments, is that I went through all of that, and then really calmed down with that because I found the edges. I played in the middle of the street. I was able to see what was going in, on in the yard across the street.

   16. CWChris Williamson28:26

       Yeah.

   17. CACory Allen28:26

       And I was able to sit back and then begin to reflect on what I had experienced.

   18. CWChris Williamson28:31

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CACory Allen28:32

       And so I had ten years of reflecting on my experience and continuing to unpack and contemplate those things. And then within the last five years, the, the new wave of interest in psychedelics and, and consciousness and all this stuff really kicked up. So it was a really curious, uh, unfolding in society for me because I was, like, watching all of these people who were just getting into this, um, way of thinking that I had kind of, uh, I felt-

   20. CWChris Williamson29:06

       Known for so long, right? You were familiar with it for so long-

   21. CACory Allen29:07

       Yeah, I had known, and, and I, I'd felt comfortable with my comprehension of it for so long and had time to reflect on, so it was very interesting. So it was good timing. It was good timing, a lot of people getting into that, uh, set of interests, and then being able to arrive with a reflected point of view whenever it was needed.

9. 29:28 – 31:00

   Do you feel fortunate

   1. CACory Allen29:28

   2. CWChris Williamson29:28

      Do you feel, uh, th- do you feel fortunate to be in a position where you can assist people at the, you know, riding the crest of this wave, so to speak, as there's a, a big uptake in, um, in mindfulness practice and a big interest in it?

   3. CACory Allen29:45

      Well, man. I mean, I don't really, like, put myself in my own image of the greater picture-

   4. CWChris Williamson29:50

      Yes.

   5. CACory Allen29:50

      ... a lot of times. I look at it all as if you and I were sitting in a bar or something talking, and you said you were interested in meditation. And I was like, "Oh, cool, man," and we could talk about it for a little while, and I would tell you whatever I thought. Uh, essentially, I would be telling you, uh, my experiences, not answers, but just ideas and thoughts and things I experienced and what I thought about them, and how they were helpful to me.

   6. CWChris Williamson30:15

      Yeah.

   7. CACory Allen30:16

      And if, you know, if you find any of that helpful, then that's fantastic, and you can take that with you and add that to your map. I look at doing it on a large scale the exact same way. You know, I don't look at, like, "Oh, I am able to..." And I, I totally take your point and I appreciate what you're saying, but just as far as the way that I interact with it all, it's not like-

   8. CWChris Williamson30:34

      It's not a self brand. It's not steaming in as Corey Allen, meditation master-

   9. CACory Allen30:39

      (laughs) Right.

   10. CWChris Williamson30:40

       ... third degree, third, third degree black, black belt-

   11. CACory Allen30:42

       (laughs) Right, right, right.

   12. CWChris Williamson30:44

       So the ƒ I think, I think, but again, that speaks to the practice, right? That speaks to the detachment from the ego (laughs) and so on and so forth.

   13. CACory Allen30:49

       Yes, yes.

   14. CWChris Williamson30:51

       Um, so that was probably a bit of a trick question, actually. Um ... (laughs)

   15. CACory Allen30:55

       (laughs) You even tricked yourself-

   16. CWChris Williamson30:56

       Yeah, I-

   17. CACory Allen30:56

       ... 'cause you sound like you just realized ƒ (laughs)

   18. CWChris Williamson30:57

       Tricked everyone, yeah. Um, so

10. 31:00 – 32:41

    The most important principles

    1. CWChris Williamson31:00

       I wanna try and start from the absolute basics, the most important principles that you think that you can explain to someone for when undertaking a mindfulness practice. Can you start at the bottom and, and, and, uh, and take it from there?

    2. CACory Allen31:18

       Yeah. Sure, man. So you, you touched on something that's very valuable up at the, the front of our conversation, which was, you know, not everything in life has to be this pursuit where you, (laughs) you become a master. You think about how many things in li- like, how many things are you a master at in life? Probably-

    3. CWChris Williamson31:39

       Zero.

    4. CACory Allen31:39

       ... maybe z- zero, yeah, yeah, exactly.

    5. CWChris Williamson31:42

       (laughs) Zero, yeah.

    6. CACory Allen31:42

       There, there might be, you know, a couple of things that you're really good at. Most people have things that they're naturally really good at. But the, this is another part of the confusion of meditation, is that people think, "I've got to do this and become a master of it." And it's like-

    7. CWChris Williamson31:57

       Mm-hmm.

    8. CACory Allen31:57

       ... no, that's not really the point. The point is to doing a- as much of the practice that you need to feel a balance and a change that works for you. And so I stress for people, like, you don't need to be meditating on the side of a mountain for 10 hours a day for the rest of your life. What you need to do is just enough to create that extra little space, that mindfulness gap, to where you can recognize your own, uh, flow of consciousness, your own flow of thoughts enough to not get into, uh, a, a chain of reactive behavior, and just be able to respond to your own life, as opposed to being carried away, uh, in your reactive programmed

11. 32:41 – 36:08

    Dont make it a big deal

    1. CACory Allen32:41

       response.

    2. CWChris Williamson32:41

       Obson- y- You observe, not attach, right? You-

    3. CACory Allen32:44

       Right, right, right.

    4. CWChris Williamson32:44

       ... watch it happen rather than attaching yourself to it.

    5. CACory Allen32:47

       Yeah, and the dance is, of course, when you do it enough to where that all becomes, uh, synchronous.

    6. CWChris Williamson32:53

       Yes.

    7. CACory Allen32:54

       And so the, you know, the, the best thing, man, for someone who's just starting is don't make it a big deal. That's super important, is don't make it a big deal, 'cause it's not a big deal. You know, you, you meditate every night while you're sleeping. The only difference is you're just gonna try and do it while you're awake a little bit, right? So you just sit in a chair, maybe on y- on your couch or lay down, whatever's the most comfortable for you, and just close your eyes, m- put a- your phone and all that stuff away, and just relax your body and take 10 deep breaths. Nothing unnatural, just allow your chest to expand and e- and, and, uh, and exhale. And, uh, when you're doing that, you know, with your eyes closed, just kind of point your attention to your chest. No big deal, just rising and falling, and just, you just try 10 breaths. And then perhaps you'll s- try and count them. So if you count one breath in and one exhale and two breaths in and two exhales, and just try and get to 10, and see if you can count 10 breaths. And most people can't. Most people ƒ-

    8. CWChris Williamson34:06

       They get distracted-

    9. CACory Allen34:07

       And ƒ-

    10. CWChris Williamson34:07

        ... at three-

    11. CACory Allen34:07

        Yeah, they ƒ-

    12. CWChris Williamson34:07

        ... or four. (laughs)

    13. CACory Allen34:09

        (laughs) Right, right ƒ-.

    14. CWChris Williamson34:10

        What's for breakfast? I wonder, I wonder if the cat's been let out yet. I need to do-

    15. CACory Allen34:14

        Right, "Is the cat-

    16. CWChris Williamson34:14

        ... something else." Yeah, (laughs) yeah.

    17. CACory Allen34:14

        ... for breakfast." Yeah, there's nothing ... Yeah, our thoughts get weird. But there's nothing wrong with that at all. And if, uh, if one becomes distracted, whenever you realize that you're distracted, just start at one again with this breath counting. And if you can sit there and do that for five minutes in the morning or in e- the evening before you go to bed, you'll notice a difference in your daily life. If you can do that for 10 minutes, you'll notice a bigger difference, and so on and so on. And I think that it's important for one not to try and sit and meditate for half an hour for the first time.

    18. CWChris Williamson34:49

        Yep.

    19. CACory Allen34:50

        Because the antsiness is gonna be, you know, pretty unbearable. If you think about your hands on a biological level, you're so used to just messing with things constantly, always with your phone, on a keyboard, with your TV remote. You're making food. You're, you're just always doing something, that to not do something, you almost feel like phantom limb syndrome-

    20. CWChris Williamson35:12

        Yeah.

    21. CACory Allen35:13

        ... where you're like, "Oh, my hands..." Right? So I think that, you know, after five minutes or so, you try it a couple of times, you get over the fidgets, and an interesting thing happens, begins to happen, is that whenever your, you know, the, the mind is reflected in the body and vice versa, and so the chatter of the brain begins to calm down, the chatter of the body begins to calm down. And whenever you can get to where you can just rest your hands on yourself while you're breathing, or just wherever you'd like to rest them, then you'll notice that, like, there's this connection between the clarity of mind and your ability to let go and just release your body and relax it.

    22. CWChris Williamson35:55

        Yeah.

    23. CACory Allen35:56

        And it should not be a feeling of like where you're, you're shrink wrapped and you're claustrophobic within your own skin. It's just liter-

    24. CWChris Williamson36:01

        It's not being tight, right? It's-

    25. CACory Allen36:03

        Yeah, just literally, like, letting go and allowing your body to just l- be there.

12. 36:08 – 37:47

    Progressive Overload

    1. CACory Allen36:08

    2. CWChris Williamson36:08

       Yeah. I think it's a-

    3. CACory Allen36:08

       And I-

    4. CWChris Williamson36:08

       ... a really, a really good analogy what you said about not trying to steam in it half an hour to begin with. The analogy for those people who go to the gym, you wouldn't walk into the gym and try and pick up- try and deadlift 250 kilos, you- (laughs)

    5. CACory Allen36:22

       Right, (laughs) right.

    6. CWChris Williamson36:23

       You, you, you start off, and it's progressive overload, right?

    7. CACory Allen36:27

       Right, right.

    8. CWChris Williamson36:28

       You ... "Where can I go today? Can, can it go six? Can it go seven? Can it go 10? Can we go ... " So yeah, so you're-

    9. CACory Allen36:34

       Exactly.

    10. CWChris Williamson36:34

        ... you're s- you're sitting, you're hopefully now starting to develop a practice where the movement in the body and the, the anxiousness and the agitation in the body is starting to calm. And then where are we going from there?

    11. CACory Allen36:46

        So from there, then you'll, you'll want to try and make that, uh, consecutive. So you wanna make sure, you know, you can try that a couple of times here and there when it appeals to you or most people reach for that practice whenever they're feeling extreme amounts of stress, they're looking for some type of solution to it or anxiety or whatever it might be. I will tell you is that people often look for optimizing solutions whenever they're in negative circumstances. You know, if you're feeling sick, people try and, "Oh, I better eat right and, you know, not, you know, hit the bar or something like that because I don't wanna get myself even more ill, uh, or if I'm really stressed, I wanna meditate." But this is the net gain aspect of meditation, is, is very, very valuable. If you're going in for a job interview or an important conversation or, you know, a first date or something like that, meditating beforehand is very valuable because you'll, if you're feeling fine and you meditate anyway, you'll be that much more calm and focused and present for the interaction.

13. 37:47 – 38:58

    Multivitamin

    1. CACory Allen37:47

    2. CWChris Williamson37:47

       Yeah.

    3. CACory Allen37:47

       And-

    4. CWChris Williamson37:47

       It shouldn't be hitting, it shouldn't be hitting the antidote button. It's the, it's the-

    5. CACory Allen37:51

       (laughs)

    6. CWChris Williamson37:51

       ... the multi-vitamin button, right? (laughs)

    7. CACory Allen37:53

       Exactly. Exactly. (laughs) And so the beautiful thing and the real, real deep, uh, result that one will find from meditation is doing it consecutively. So after you, you perhaps someone tries meditating here and there whenever they need it and they realize, "Oh, this is kind of helping me. This is... I noticed a little shift in my brain." Maybe if you feel a little, a little high or something afterwards. And, uh, I, I used to back, you know, just looping back around to my teenage years, I used to read until I felt high. Like that was the, that was how I knew I could stop, is whenever I read philosophy...

    8. CWChris Williamson38:28

       Is that like a runner, is that like a runner's high but for-

    9. CACory Allen38:30

       Yeah. Yeah. (laughs)

    10. CWChris Williamson38:31

        ...for academics like yourself?

    11. CACory Allen38:31

        That's how I knew that my brain was stretching. It's like if I read like enough of this idea or this concept until I feel stoned, I know that like-

    12. CWChris Williamson38:41

        (laughs)

    13. CACory Allen38:41

        ... synopsises are popping, right? (laughs)

    14. CWChris Williamson38:44

        Yeah. Yeah.

    15. CACory Allen38:44

        So but you, you will feel a, a bit of, or often a person will feel a bit of, um, difference in their consciousness after meditation, and that's really a awareness of your own awareness that

14. 38:58 – 40:18

    Orientation

    1. CACory Allen38:58

       is beginning to appear.

    2. CWChris Williamson38:58

       You're talk- you're talking im- immediately after a practice or around a practice there, right?

    3. CACory Allen39:02

       Yeah. Yeah. You'll, you'll find this right after a practice or even during. You can feel this like, "Oh, I feel a bit different," you know? And it's, it's this awareness of your awareness. You are more present and so there's more information that your nervous system is taking in because it's more aware and there's more detail and nuance in your experience of life.

    4. CWChris Williamson39:23

       100%.

    5. CACory Allen39:23

       And, and that becomes a, a orientation, a permanent orientation once you practice meditation consecutively. Just as the analogy you used with stretching, if you stretch... You know, I, I like to run a lot and if, if you were to (laughs) , to, to never stretch, that would be bad. Obviously you would hurt yourself. Um, but-

    6. CWChris Williamson39:45

       A bit.

    7. CACory Allen39:46

       (laughs) Yeah.

    8. CWChris Williamson39:47

       (laughs) It would be terrible. Yeah.

    9. CACory Allen39:48

       But if you stretch once a week and you're running 20 miles a week, you're going to not feel well. But if you stretch every day, it becomes easier and easier to stretch each time.

    10. CWChris Williamson39:57

        Yes.

    11. CACory Allen39:58

        And then it becomes vital and crucial. Uh, this is the same thing with meditation. You know, if you meditate once, it is helpful for the moment, but you're going to find yourself back in the place that you were. And, uh, then if you do it every day, you're just going to feel this inherent flexibility that becomes a part of your daily experience.

15. 40:18 – 43:05

    State vs trait changes

    1. CACory Allen40:18

    2. CWChris Williamson40:18

       Yeah. I think one of the things that you touched on was a point I really wanted to try and get across to people, which is state versus trait changes-

    3. CACory Allen40:27

       Mm-hmm.

    4. CWChris Williamson40:27

       ...in your experience. So state changes would be those which you experience during and immediately around doing some meditation practice, whether it be five or 20 minutes or half an hour. And trait changes are the ones which you would notice throughout your day-to-day, uh, experience away from the practice, a significant period of time away from the practice.

    5. CACory Allen40:52

       Right.

    6. CWChris Williamson40:52

       I think a lot of the time people expect and they look for the trait changes first, which, uh, um, I've meditated for five days in a row, but I still got angry because my husband was late for dinner or whatever it might be. Whereas the tr- the state changes for me occurred very quickly. I felt very, very calm quite quickly after spending 10 to 15 minutes calming the mind.

    7. CACory Allen41:21

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    8. CWChris Williamson41:22

       Is there, is, is there a, um, is there a, uh, level of time or amount of time under tension that where people will begin to notice trait changes?

    9. CACory Allen41:36

       Yes. I would say, you know, typically the, the word on that is around two weeks is when you really begin to feel those, those deeper changes. And that could have something to do with neuroplasticity shifts and kind of retraining the actual, uh, framework of the brain and the mind and what have you. And, uh, it does seem to be around that time that people notice that. Howev- I would like to make just clarification in that, you know, we're still, like everyone's still human, right? And so to begin a meditation practice with it- thinking that like, "All right. Here's what's cool is I'm never gonna feel angry again."

    10. CWChris Williamson42:15

        (laughs)

    11. CACory Allen42:16

        (laughs) You know? It's like, "This is gonna be cool. I'm, I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna be a zen master."

    12. CWChris Williamson42:21

        Gonna be completely immune to all emotions, both negative-

    13. CACory Allen42:26

        Right. (laughs)

    14. CWChris Williamson42:26

        ... and positive, and just turn in- uh, like Brandon Stark in Game of Thrones at the moment, just like this turnip in the corner of the room.

    15. CACory Allen42:33

        (laughs)

    16. CWChris Williamson42:33

        Yeah. That's... (laughs)

    17. CACory Allen42:35

        (laughs) By the way, that's one of my favorite, uh, you know, UK sayings is turnip. It's close to my heart-

    18. CWChris Williamson42:41

        (laughs)

    19. CACory Allen42:41

        ... but, uh, I, I am (laughs) I'm glad you said it. I, I like, uh, tennis a lot. And whenever I hear Andy Murray yell, uh, call himself a turnip, it always makes me laugh.

    20. CWChris Williamson42:50

        (laughs) I didn't even know that he does that. That's-

    21. CACory Allen42:53

        (laughs)

    22. CWChris Williamson42:53

        That's such a Scottish thing to call yourself as well.

    23. CACory Allen42:56

        Yeah. (laughs)

    24. CWChris Williamson42:57

        Like what... Of all of the things that you could have called yourself, Andy, 'cause there's lots of people in the crowd calling you other things and it's not-

    25. CACory Allen43:02

        Yeah.

    26. CWChris Williamson43:02

        ... it's not a, it's not a turnip. But that's-

    27. CACory Allen43:04

        (laughs)

16. 43:05 – 46:14

    Brandon Stark

    1. CWChris Williamson43:05

       ... that's hilarious. But yeah, like that Brandon Stark thing for anyone who's watching Game of Thrones at the moment, it makes me laugh 'cause that, that kind of complete detachment from everything that's going on is...... the, kind of like the 30 seconds, if someone was to walk in after I've done a, a half an hour meditation practice, within 30 seconds of me finishing, that's how I feel like I would respond. Like, (laughs) just completely, like, I don't know, just detached and out of it and slowly trying to bring myself back to reality. But it's, uh-

    2. CACory Allen43:36

       Hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson43:36

       ... it was, it was so funny when he, uh, when, when that started to come up in the, in the Game of Thrones thing. And a couple of my friends who do, uh, yoga and meditation as well mentioned the same thing. They said, "Do you think that Brandon's actually got any, uh, greensight or whatever it's called, or has he just been absolutely pounding the meditation for the last year-"

    4. CACory Allen43:55

       (laughs)

    5. CWChris Williamson43:55

       "... while he's, (laughs) while he's been in the wheelchair?"

    6. CACory Allen43:56

       (laughs) Now, see, this is funny to me because, uh, I actually don't find ... I, I suppose I did for a while, but, uh, I don't find to feel more removed and, uh, internal after my meditations. I actually feel more interwoven with the external world afterwards.

    7. CWChris Williamson44:16

       That's interesting.

    8. CACory Allen44:17

       Mm-hmm.

    9. CWChris Williamson44:17

       I'd, I'd definitely say, as someone who's done a, a consistent practice for about two to two and a half years now, or maybe ... yeah, maybe two years, I wo- I wouldn't say that that's my ... that that marries with my experience, not yet. I wouldn't-

    10. CACory Allen44:31

        And when I'm bro-

    11. CWChris Williamson44:31

        I wonder if that's a-

    12. CACory Allen44:32

        I'm reflecting back here, I'm thinking, you know, I've, I think I've been meditating about 20 years.

    13. CWChris Williamson44:36

        Yep.

    14. CACory Allen44:37

        And reflecting back, I think that there was a long period of time where I would feel ... Yeah, I, I've always been a big coffee drinker, so my routine for, for years was like meditating and then drinking a giant, you know, pounding a giant coffee.

    15. CWChris Williamson44:53

        (laughs) I do.

    16. CACory Allen44:53

        And, (laughs) yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson44:54

        That's like, that's like taking the, taking the dip down before getting on the roller coaster ride to the top right.

    18. CACory Allen45:00

        Right. (laughs) Right, it's like a slingshot, right?

    19. CWChris Williamson45:01

        Yeah, for sure.

    20. CACory Allen45:02

        Um, but no, and now thinking back, yeah, I do, I do think, uh, I recall there being a long stretch, uh, uh, uh, like that. And eventually, I think my interest after my, you know, a decade or whatever, or 15 years, my body seemed to finally calm down and I was able to just accept my own existence a bit more. And, uh, (laughs) you know, that's a, that's a tricky one.

    21. CWChris Williamson45:27

        Yep.

    22. CACory Allen45:28

        But I think that these days, not to fast-forward too much, but these days my meditation is very much, um, just watching. And in my meditation, and, and I described this, you know, recently, uh, is that I think that, uh, observing, you know, the outer world and the inner world while also simultaneously observing that from a bird's eye view above, all three at the same time-

    23. CWChris Williamson45:59

        Yep.

    24. CACory Allen46:00

        ... that, to me, is what my meditation is like. It's an, it's an interlocking of looking at what's out there, looking what's inside, and then watching those two things meet.

    25. CWChris Williamson46:13

        Wow.

17. 46:14 – 52:42

    Consistency

    1. CWChris Williamson46:14

       I think-

    2. CACory Allen46:14

       Watching-

    3. CWChris Williamson46:15

       I think there's definitely a lot to be said for early on in your practice, there's a lot of unexplored territory internally.

    4. CACory Allen46:24

       Mm-hmm.

    5. CWChris Williamson46:25

       And I can imagine, I can imagine that that may be some of the carryover immediately after your practice that, "Where have I just been? What was I just thinking about? How come my mind's so quiet?" You know, as you, as you slowly come round to back, back into the physical realm, so to speak.

    6. CACory Allen46:43

       Mm-hmm. No, I think that's a wonderful distinction, man. Yeah. Absolutely.

    7. CWChris Williamson46:47

       So, what would you say in terms of ... Once y- once people have begun to build up a, a practice, hopefully consistency, so optimal frequency daily?

    8. CACory Allen46:58

       Yeah. You know, daily, and I would say I probably meditate five days a week.

    9. CWChris Williamson47:03

       Mm-hmm.

    10. CACory Allen47:04

        And it's just really important to not make it a chore, you know, because people will find a way to resent it. (laughs)

    11. CWChris Williamson47:11

        (laughs)

    12. CACory Allen47:11

        And find a way to, to be able to pass it up if it becomes a thing they, they feel like they have to do.

    13. CWChris Williamson47:17

        Yes. It's-

    14. CACory Allen47:17

        Because people just don't like being told what to do, even by themselves.

    15. CWChris Williamson47:21

        We're not our own slaves, right? Yeah, one of m-

    16. CACory Allen47:23

        (laughs)

    17. CWChris Williamson47:23

        One of, (laughs) one of the, uh, the guys who's on the podcast all the time, Yousef, says, "Meditation isn't something we have to do, it's something we get to do."

    18. CACory Allen47:31

        Absolutely. Absolutely.

    19. CWChris Williamson47:33

        Um-

    20. CACory Allen47:33

        But I, I think eventually it becomes ... to me anyway, it becomes like brushing your teeth, you know? It's like you, you don't even think about it. Well, I hope not. You know, you don't even think about it, you just do it as a part of your, your daily experience. And it's not a ... I don't know many people that are like, "Oh God, I gotta go brush my teeth again."

    21. CWChris Williamson47:49

        (laughs) Yeah.

    22. CACory Allen47:50

        You know? It's like-

    23. CWChris Williamson47:50

        Yeah.

    24. CACory Allen47:50

        It's like ... (laughs) it's a good thing, you know? And it helps, helps you stay fresh and, and, and, uh, crispy clean. And, and meditation is no different.

    25. CWChris Williamson47:58

        So we've got optimal frequency at between daily to five times a week.

    26. CACory Allen48:03

        Yeah.

    27. CWChris Williamson48:03

        And what about optimal session length once you've worked up your tolerance?

    28. CACory Allen48:09

        Yeah, man, I think that once you've become more accustomed to meditating something longer than 5 or 10 minutes, I would say a 20 to 30 is really a great target zone. 'Cause that way you're not hacking away an hour of your day or 45 minutes of your day. You're not becoming bored to the experience. It's enough to really have a deep effect yet not make one psychologically feel like they're devoting too much time to it.

    29. CWChris Williamson48:38

        Yeah.

    30. CACory Allen48:38

        And I know is ... that may even sound a little weird, but just the nature of human time management and psychology and, and all that stuff, I, I think it's sort of an important thing to keep in mind. And, um, you know, to me, I generally ... there's something magical about the 20-minute zone, the 20-minute mark, to me. And I've spoke with other people who are deep meditators and they've reciprocated that idea. So I think the 20 to 30-minute timeline is nice because, or timezone rather, because you can get to that spot where you're just like a tree blowing in the breeze without a name or identity, and then, (laughs) you know, then in- kind of embrace that watching period for a while and experience just ...... consciousness.
18. 52:42 – 1:20:50

    Psychedelic Experience

    1. CWChris Williamson52:42

       Yeah, that's cool. So, you touched on this earlier, and it's, uh, something that I really wanted to bring up with you. So you've mentioned that starting a meditation practice with a psychedelic experience in advance can change the nature of your practice by, I may be putting words in your mouth, but by giving you something to aim for. Or I, I, I don't know if I've taken that out of context, but that, uh, s- meditation practice after having psychedelic experiences can take on a, a different kind of, a different kind of role and can be viewed in a different way. Would you be able to elaborate on that?

    2. CACory Allen53:23

       Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, whether it'd be meditation or a psychedelic experience, these are really just ways to manipulate one's own consciousness. And I think that if you were to take a psychedelic, what often will happen is a person becomes more aware of their own mind, not necessarily in a good way, but they become aware of their own consciousness, aware of their awareness and their experience more. And their perception begins to become a bit more modular in that the locked-in, programmed, uh, ways that they saw the world and their subjective perception of it begins to shift and become malleable in such that they begin perceiving things differently. And to simplify and to make that more easy to understand, to someone who has not had that experience, if you were to look at the classic picture of, is that a vase or is that two faces facing each other?

    3. CWChris Williamson54:18

       Yeah. (laughs)

    4. CACory Allen54:18

       And you look at the two faces, you know, "Oh, it's two faces." And then you focus on the vase, and you think, "Oh, no, it's a vase." Well, truly, of course, it's both at the same time, but it really is in, in accord to how you're perceiving it at that moment. While under a psychedelic experience, you know, the world becomes that way in, in a lot of ways. And so that truly is just the nature of your perception becomes more clear to you, uh, or it can, has the potential to. Meditation is the same thing. It's just a different pathway and a different, uh, you know, um, method of getting to that place, and I would say a much more stable and agreeable-

    5. CWChris Williamson54:53

       (laughs)

    6. CACory Allen54:54

       ... and lo- beneficial one.

    7. CWChris Williamson54:55

       I think-

    8. CACory Allen54:55

       So-

    9. CWChris Williamson54:56

       ... I think that's a good, a very (laughs) good analogy and a good thing to mention as well, that the, the, the stable, secure route to the top of the mountain rather than strapping yourself into a cannon and getting fired, fired-

    10. CACory Allen55:07

        Yeah. Right, right. (laughs)

    11. CWChris Williamson55:08

        ... directly to the top.

    12. CACory Allen55:10

        And so, you know, uh, getting to the top of the mountain with no context or knowledge or wisdom is kind of a wasted ticket to the top of the mountain in a lot of cases, in most cases, because, you know, you really just need experience and time, and time to understand what you're even thinking, and understand what you're experiencing and reflecting on those experiences-... before you can have, you know, a lot of (laughs) benefit from those places. You know, I, you know, personally, I did it the other way. I did it against the way I'm talking about, is it really just like smearing my brain across the, you know, top of the cosmos, uh, and then trying to pick up the pieces-

    13. CWChris Williamson55:46

        (laughs)

    14. CACory Allen55:46

        ... and put it all back together.

    15. CWChris Williamson55:50

        That's such a- (laughs)

    16. CACory Allen55:50

        You know?

    17. CWChris Williamson55:50

        ... that's such a destructive-

    18. CACory Allen55:52

        But-

    19. CWChris Williamson55:52

        ... uh, im- image (laughs) I mean-

    20. CACory Allen55:54

        Yes. You get-

    21. CWChris Williamson55:55

        ... chasing, chasing the fragments of my consciousness around the galaxy and then hoping that I haven't missed (laughs) any on the way back down.

    22. CACory Allen56:01

        Right. Yeah. They always, they have extra pieces when you put something back together, man. (laughs)

    23. CWChris Williamson56:04

        Yeah. Where did this come from?

    24. CACory Allen56:06

        Yeah. (laughs)

    25. CWChris Williamson56:06

        This wasn't a part of me. Yeah, exactly.

    26. CACory Allen56:08

        Yeah. And so, um, but, but, you know, and, and that, this is why earlier I was mentioning how I had a long time to reflect on those experiences and things dawned on me, you know, 10 years later and say, "Oh, that's what I was experiencing at that moment, and now I have the time to understand it." And, you know, I think that meditation is really valuable in the sense that, well, just to answer your previous question, like, yes, if you have a psychedelic experience and then go to meditate, it can frame and give you context for what you already experienced. And then also you will be a bit familiar with the simple state of consciousness change regardless of the method, if, once you go to meditate, you can recognize, you know, as they say, game recognizes game. You can recognize the game a little bit. You're like, "Oh, okay, I know this feeling."

    27. CWChris Williamson56:58

        Yeah.

    28. CACory Allen56:58

        "I know that this is consciousness shifting." So, um, but I will say, man, is that I, I have gotten to where I'm so, I'm just not really interested in... It's actually even curious to me, like I'm not even interested in consciousness state changes of many, uh, in, in, of many regards these days. Like, you know, I'm not really interested in psychedelics or e- hardly even alcohol, even though I do drink w- wine, uh, several k- a lot, several nights a week and stuff like that. But I don't really even want to. I just kind of do because it's sort of like a nice social fun thing to do, and it's tasty. But I'm not looking for state changes.

    29. CWChris Williamson57:42

        Yeah.

    30. CACory Allen57:42

        I don't f- crave or desire state changes.

Episode duration: 1:20:51