The Key Strategies Of Behaviour Change - Dr Rangan Chatterjee (4K)

1. 0:00 – 10:47

   The Problem With Being Too Reliant

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      What's the problem with reliances?

   2. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee0:04

      The problem with reliances is that we are overly reliant on too many things in the outside world which we cannot control, and those reliances, Chris, are tying us down. So, as a medical doctor, one of my main interests is how do you help people make changes that actually last? Not changes for two or three weeks in January, or maybe January, February, March, but actually long-term transformational changes. And I've realized that one of the reasons why people cannot, or they struggle to make those long-term changes, is because they're too reliant on too many things. I'll give you an example, right? So, many people feel that they can only feel good and live the life that they want when everything around them goes right. Okay, there's no traffic, the emails are okay, the coffee is given to you by your barista just the way you like it. Okay, your boss treats you nicely. There's no traffic on the way home from work. If those conditions are met, we can feel calm and satisfied, and we can get on with our life and make the choices that we wanna make. But if those conditions are not met, then actually we start to struggle. We don't feel good in who we are. And what I've realized, Chris, over 23 years now of seeing patients, is that usually the behaviors that we are trying to avoid or cut down on are there for a very good reason, and they're usually there to help us neutralize the internal discomfort that we feel. So, the reason I think that most people cannot or struggle to make changes that last is because they're not understanding the role that those behaviors play in their life. They're too focused on the behavior, but I think we need to be focused on the energy behind the behavior.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:54

      How do you dig behind a behavior, given that it's quite hard to... We're not crystal balls to ourselves. We don't know why we do the things we do all the time.

   4. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee2:04

      Yeah. It's not as hard as, actually, it's not as hard as we might think, right? Because let's take something super, uh, common, and something that people are trying to reset their relationship all the time. Let's say alcohol, for example, right? So, what I see a lot of in medicine is us try to give public health advice to people saying, "Look, too much alcohol, or frankly, a little bit of alcohol is probably not helping you that much." And the way we'll try and facilitate change is by giving people more knowledge and more information, right? "You know, too much alcohol will damage your liver. It's not good for your weight. It's not good for your sleep architecture," or whatever it might be. And that can be helpful up to a point, but I submit that most people who are trying to cut back on alcohol or cut it out completely, and you can substitute alcohol for sugar, or online pornography, or gambling, or whatever you want basically, it's a behavior. What a lot of people who are trying to do that, they already know the damage that that is causing for them. Not everyone, but a lot of them do. What they're not understanding is why do they keep going to that behavior? So instead of every January, for example, buying the new book on the alcohol detox or the sugar detox, anyone, Chris, can stop a behavior for three or four weeks, and they think that they're getting somewhere. But they're often not getting somewhere because that behavior was there for a reason. So very simply, if you're drinking alcohol to manage the stress in your life, which many people do, then you can white-knuckle it for four weeks and quit, but usually, you'll end up back to where you were unless one of two things has happened. Either the stress in your life has to come down, so you have less of a need, therefore, for the alcohol, or you need to find an alternative behavior to alcohol to manage the stress. When I put it like that, it sounds really, really simple and obvious-

   5. CWChris Williamson4:05

      Mm-hmm.

   6. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee4:06

      ... but I genuinely believe that when we think about behavior change, too much of it is about more and more external knowledge, right? But I think what we all need is more internal knowledge. And your first question to me was about reliances, right? And I said about a lot of these everyday reliances that people, uh, have which are tying them down. In this new book, what I've done is go through some bigger picture reliances, right? So chapter one I think is one of the most important chapters I've ever written. It's called Trust Yourself, and I talk about this over-reliance on experts. Right? So, if I could just elaborate, because I think it's a really interesting point. You and me, Chris, we both host podcasts, right? And we talk to a lot of experts, right? And they give their advice. Now, I don't know if you've found this, Chris, but what I would find, and I do find on my podcast, is one week I could talk to, let's say, uh, a medical doctor from Harvard Medical School, right? So people say, "You know, you must get your advice from experts," but here's the problem in the modern world. One week, let's say I talk to Chris Palmer from Harvard Medical School, right, which I have done. And Chris is great, and he will show evidence that a ketogenic diet can be incredibly helpful for some people with bipolar and other mental health problems, right? He'll give you patient case studies, and he'll give you published research to support what he's saying. Two months later, I could talk to someone else. Let's say Professor Felice Jacka from Australia, right? And sh- we can talk about her trial that showed a Mediterranean diet is really good for reversing depression, right? And she'll present case studies and published research. So, what I would find often in my Instagram DMs is that my audience will say, "Hey, Dr. Chatterjee, I'm a little bit confused. Chris Palmer said this, Felice Jacka said that. They both sound really, really convincing.""I don't know which expert to trust." To Chris, I believe in 2024 and 2025, that's the wrong question to be asking. It's not which expert should I trust, it's why do I no longer trust myself? I think we have become overly reliant on external experts. I'm not saying ignore external experts, but somewhere over the last few years, we've outsourced our inner expertise to these external experts.

   7. CWChris Williamson6:32

      Mm.

   8. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee6:32

      So, what I would say to people, and I've got 23 years of clinical experience behind me, so this is real life experience with patients, not just published research, different things work for different people. So, I would say to people, "Listen, why don't you try what Chris Palmer is suggesting, for example, for four weeks, and in those four weeks I want you to pay attention. Pay attention to your energy, your sleep, your relationships, your focus, your concentration, your guts, your bloating, your bowels. Pay attention." Right? And then for the next four weeks, try what the other expert's saying and pay attention to those same things. At the end of that eight-week trial, you will actually start to know which of these diets feels right for me.

   9. CWChris Williamson7:21

      Mm.

   10. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee7:21

       Does that make sense?

   11. CWChris Williamson7:23

       Yeah, it does. I mean, uh, do you find it a, uh, difficult position to hold as a doctor writing a self-development book to say, "Don't trust the experts"?

   12. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee7:31

       I think actually in some ways it makes what I'm saying even more powerful, because I am a so-called expert, right? So I'm a medical doctor. I've done my specialist exams, I've done my general practice exams. I've got an immunology degree. I'm a professor at Chester Medical School.

   13. CWChris Williamson7:46

       Expertise.

   14. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee7:47

       I've got the expertise, but I still would have to say, Chris, to you or any of your audience, I simply cannot know exactly what is the right approach for you. I can give you frameworks and guidelines, but ultimately you have to determine what is the right approach for you. And I... Yes, we can help. I'm not saying ignore experts, Chris. I'm saying I think the balance has shifted too far now. And what's happened is, is when we basically think that the expert has the answer, and I'm following their advice and I'm not feeling better, we never think they're the failure.

   15. CWChris Williamson8:26

       Mm. That's interesting.

   16. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee8:27

       We think we're the failure.

   17. CWChris Williamson8:29

       Yep.

   18. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee8:29

       And we're struggling, and actually we are not good enough.

   19. CWChris Williamson8:33

       Mm.

   20. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee8:33

       And it, and it makes us feel inferior. And in that chapter, there's a case study of, you know, a real life case study of a patient who came to see me once. She was very, very interested in her health. She would listen to health podcasts and read all the health books, and she had heard a gut health expert say that you should aim to have 30 different plant foods in a week, because that will help you have a healthy gut microbiome.

   21. CWChris Williamson8:56

       Okay.

   22. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee8:57

       Right. So, she's trying to follow that in her life, and she's... Feels awful every time she tries to follow it. Okay? And then she tries to go slowly and introduce really, really gradually. She's getting bloated, she's getting constipated, she can't sleep properly. She comes in to see me and says, "Dr. Chatterjee, I'm trying my best here, right? I know that I need to have these 30 different plant foods for a healthy gut microbiome, but I just don't feel good." And what I said to her, Chris, was, "Listen. I'm not criticizing the advice that you read online at all. I'm simply saying that no one piece of health advice holds true for every single person. Would you like me to help you figure out what is the right approach for you?" And it only took us about six weeks. And for her, at that point in her life, Chris, she went on to a more low carb type of diet with five to 10 different plant foods a week, and she's rocking, she's thriving. She's got energy. Her sleep's good. She's got a flat stomach. She's not bloated. That was the right approach for her, and why I'm so passionate about this idea, Chris, is that we're now living in this era where we're drowning in information. And for all the good intentions about putting this information out there that you have and that I have, and many people have-

   23. CWChris Williamson10:14

       Mm.

   24. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee10:15

       ... one of the things that we've neglected along the way, I think, is, uh, an individual, I think, on a core level knows when they're on the right approach for them. I... That's what I've seen in 23 years of seeing patients, Chris. I've seen that actually somewhere along the line, the people who can make changes that truly last in the long term, at some point, they've tuned into themselves and gone, "Actually, you know what, Doc? I know you said that, but actually I feel better when I'm eating in this way."

   25. CWChris Williamson10:45

       Mm. There's this interesting

2. 10:47 – 16:46

   How to Deal With an Overload of Health Information

   1. CWChris Williamson10:47

      Jeff Bezos quote where he says, uh, "When the data doesn't agree with the anecdote, I usually trust the anecdote." The point being that I- I- I've had this in my mind for a while, um, if you can't explain the mechanism of how something works, the fact that it works is, uh, derogated quite quickly. It's like, "Look, that's, that's not the, that's not the particular way that this thing's supposed to occur." And you go, "That's fine, but this person's outcome is exactly what they were looking for in life." They lost weight, or they improved their mood, or they, uh, y- their lifts went up in the gym or whatever it might be. That is the thing that you're trying to achieve. I don't think we need to over-complicate what the inputs are, and we get so caught up on that. It's interesting, this sort of a treating yourself like an experiment approach, you know, holding the strategies that you use quite loosely, being prepared to move after you've had them either proven or disproven. That seems like a good approach. But yeah, I mean, you know, health advice is pretty confusing, I think, in the modern world. More information than ever, but even less clarity.

   2. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee11:46

      Well, more health information than ever before, and worsening health outcomes. Right? When I was sitting down for the last two and a half years writing this book, Chris, I was thinking, "On what level it doesn't make sense. More health podcasts, more health books, more health blogs, more online articles about health, yet at the same time, worse physical health outcomes, worse mental health outcomes." I thought, "What is this?"

   3. CWChris Williamson12:10

      Mm.

   4. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee12:10

      More knowledge... Everyone says, "Knowledge is power."... we need more knowledge. And the case I make in this book that I'm very passionate about that I don't believe is being made enough is that it's not just external knowledge we need. We need more internal knowledge.

   5. CWChris Williamson12:26

      What is that?

   6. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee12:27

      Internal knowledge is insight. It's self-awareness. It's tuning into yourself as y- I'm sure you may have covered this before on your show, interception. You know, the ability to sense your own body's signals, right? We know full well, there's so many research papers now on interception, it's almost like our sixth sense. There's a study, uh, that was done with autistic individuals who had anxiety, and if they were trained to be able to sense their heartbeats and feel their heartbeats, they could actually get remission from their anxiety more than people who couldn't. People who've had substance abuse with drugs and alcohol, if they have mindfulness training which allows them to feel their internal sensations and their signals, it reduces the rate of relapse, reduces the rate of depression, improves how they feel about themselves, right? So, this is, this... I th- I sometimes wonder, Chris, why I have this approach to health that I do, 'cause it's not similar to most doctors, right? I think the way I look at health, and I think there's a few things that have influenced the way I see the world. One is my upbringing. You know, I am the child of Indian immigrants to the UK, so my dad came in 1962 to the UK in search of a better life, and I grew up with this clash of cultures right at home, this Indian upbringing where we very much see food as medicine, where if I have a cold or a sore throat, Mum is putting extra turmeric in my food or making me hot ginger and honey and turmeric and saying, "You have to drink that before you go to school." And then at school, I was getting this more, you know, Western, uh, mindset, and I think that clash really comes when you get to medical school where it is very much about, "What does the research trial show?"

   7. CWChris Williamson14:15

      Mm.

   8. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee14:17

      I'm not against science at all. I think science is wonderful. But what I've realized over the past few years is actually what a lot of these traditional healing modalities like traditional Indian medicine, Ayurvedic medicine, and traditional Chinese medicine had, which we don't so much have in Western medicine, is a real appreciation of the individual. The individual... Every individual is different. They all need a slightly different approach. But the model we get taught, Chris, is, what does the randomized control trial say, okay? So very simplistically, let's give 100 people this treatment and 100 people don't get the treatment. On average, does it work or not? And if enough people benefit, we say, "Yes, on average this is a statistically significant finding. This treatment works." But the problem is if you go under the hood there, you will find that even in the group where it wasn't statistically significant, some people still got better, right? So, it doesn't account for the individual, and I think this is why I'm so passionate about this idea because science is great to help inform us, right? But you may not be the person who was in that randomized control trial, and going back to what you said, Chris, it's about outcomes. What are we looking for? We're not... You know, one thing we do get taught very well at in Western medical schools is we're not treating biomarkers, we're not treating blood levels, we're treating a human being, a patient.

   9. CWChris Williamson15:50

      Mm.

   10. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee15:50

       Right? So, going back to that patient I mentioned, as you said, what does she want? She wants energy. She wants vitality. She wants good sleep. Whether she's having five plant foods a week or 30 plant foods a week is actually irrelevant in terms of the goals that she wants.

   11. CWChris Williamson16:06

       Yeah. Rory Sutherland said yesterday, "To economists, price is a number, but to customers price is a feeling," and it's basically the same thing with medicine, right? That you can... Show me where this appears. Show me the RCT on this. Show me the double-blind whatever, and you go, "Ah, don't have that, but I do have 'I felt better when I did such and such a thing.'"

   12. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee16:26

       And as a practicing doctor for so many years, Chris, I can tell you the only thing that has ever mattered to me is helping the person in front of me get better, and often I've helped people get better not by using what the RCT said-

   13. CWChris Williamson16:42

       Mm.

   14. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee16:42

       ... because for me, medicine is an art and science, right?

3. 16:46 – 26:08

   Why Perfectionism is So Dangerous

   1. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee16:46

   2. CWChris Williamson16:46

      Talk to me about the problems with perfectionism.

   3. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee16:50

      Well, it kind of plays into what we're talking about actually in some ways. So, perfectionism is on the rise. We know that from the 1980s. A lot of us think it's from social media. Social media has definitely made it worse, but we actually know it was happening before that, this idea that actually we can be perfect, right? And I think it's because of all these cultural, uh, myths that we have around us, the billboard image, what we might see on social media. We think actually that attaining what we think these people have is possible, but perfectionism is toxic. It is literally one of the most toxic things that you can suffer from, and I have had it for most of my life. Until very recently I would say, I had quite serious perfectionist tendencies which I think affected me in so many different ways. We know that perfectionism is associated with all kinds of mental health problems, including suicide, right? So, this is, this is a serious, serious issue, but perfectionism makes you feel less than, right? Often we are comparing the worst version of ourselves with the best version of somebody else, and when we feel less than, we compensate with our behaviors, right? This is why this matters to me, Chris. So, everything in Make Change (at Last) is this idea that every single person is capable of making meaningful change in their life. I know that to be true. I have seen it time and time again. I have seen patients in the darkest places with suicidal thoughts...... and I've helped them turn their life around. So, I know that it's possible for every single person. But in order to do that, we have to understand ourselves. We have to understand that our behaviors follow our beliefs. So, if you have perfectionistic beliefs that it is possible to be perfect, you will find that when you fall short, as you inevitably will, because none of us are perfect, we don't feel good. And that's what drives us to the pornography, to the gambling, to the sugar, to the alcohol. Those things are a consequence.

   4. NANarrator18:59

      Mm-hmm.

   5. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee18:59

      They're not the cause of the issue. They're a symptom of the problem. So, I think perfection is massive and, you know, it's something I've heard you talk about before and I- I write about at length is, in chapter two is, w- which is, the chapter title is called Give Up Your Heroes. I used to really put my heroes on a pedestal, Chris. I don't know if you did as a kid or not. I certainly did. And I don't know if one could admit this these days or not, but, you know, I started that chapter saying that when I was 14, I can remember growing up in the Northwest of England. On my wall, I had a life-sized flag of Jon Bon Jovi.

   6. NANarrator19:36

      Okay. Yep.

   7. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee19:37

      Okay? I don't know what that means from your facial expression.

   8. NANarrator19:39

      I- I just wonder where you went so wrong.

   9. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee19:43

      Okay. Well, we can, we can talk about musical taste, uh, maybe off the mic after.

   10. NANarrator19:46

       Not musical, not musical taste, just in the career choice. Y- you had a flourishing... You've got the hair. You had a flourishing career as a Indian Bon Jovi and-

   11. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee19:54

       And I'm... And look, look where I ended up.

   12. NANarrator19:56

       I know.

   13. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee19:56

       (laughs)

   14. NANarrator19:57

       Ri- writing books and fixing people's health.

   15. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee20:00

       But, wha- why that's interesting, why I chose to open that chapter with that story is 'cause I can see now very clearly how that kind of hero worship has been problematic for me, right? So, I thought as a 14-year-old boy, "Wow, God, if I could be Jon Bon Jovi, my life would be perfect." Right? Touring the world, screaming fans, writing killer album after killer album, if you liked that sort of thing at the time, right? (laughs) Whatever your choice might be. But somewhere along the line, I believed that it was possible, and many of us believe that perfectionism is possible. I think it's got so much worse now with social media, where we see these avatars online. They're not real. Taylor Swift, our impression of Taylor Swift is not real. Yes, she is real. She exists, but actually what we're shown about her is carefully curated by a marketing machine. I'm not having a go at them for doing that. It is a business, right? I'm not criticizing Taylor Swift. If you love Taylor Swift and you like going to her concerts, that is great, but many of us are growing up with the belief that that is possible. And it's not possible, right? If... I've learned as an adult over the last few years, Chris, I'm 47 now, and I think, "Wow, if I was Jon Bon Jovi, what would it have been genuinely like being on the road for 300 days a year?"

   16. NANarrator21:22

       Mm-hmm.

   17. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee21:22

       What was it like for your wife?

   18. NANarrator21:23

       Mm-hmm.

   19. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee21:24

       What was it like for your children growing up? What was it like sleeping on a tour bus with sweaty crew night after night? Like, genuinely, because I think I said to you just before we got on the mics, Chris, I'm in such a great place these days. Like, like, honestly, I've never felt this good. Like, I feel really... I feel grounded. I feel calm. I feel that I've, I've managed to come to a point where I- I get what's truly important for me. Not for anyone else, but for me.

   20. NANarrator21:53

       What's changed?

   21. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee21:56

       What's changed is I've cut a lot of these reliances that were tying me down, that I, that I talk about in this book. Right? Bit by bit, I've gone through the process of cutting them, this reliance on perfection, realizing, no, perfect is a myth, Rangan. You cannot achieve perfect. It's not possible, right? So, get really clear on what your priorities are this week. Everything in life has a consequence, right? Now, this is, this is something I truly get these days, Chris, in a way that I never got before. We make choices in life, and those choices have consequences. Too often, we only think about the upside of our choices and not the downsides. And so, I think last time I came on your show a few years ago, I mentioned this little happiness exercise that I've used with patients for years, I use myself, which is just very simple write your own happy ending exercise, where you imagine yourself on your deathbed and you imagine looking back on your life. What are the three things I will want to have done in my life? And for me, the last time I did that it was, I want to have spent quality time with my friends and family. I want to have had time to, um... I would want to have had time to actually pursue my passions. And thirdly, I would want to have done something that has improved the lives of other people. I genuinely think if I was on my deathbed now, those are the three things I would want. Now, I can't say that for sure 'cause I'm not there, but I'm imagining. And then the second part of the exercise is you come back to the present, where you then pick three happiness habits. Right? So, what are three things I would need to do each week, my happiness habits, that will guarantee or pretty much guarantee I get the happy ending that I just defined that I want? So, for me, and I- I don't think it's changed in the last year and a half or so, it's literally... And I have it on my fridge at home because I wanna be visually triggered by it every day so I don't get caught up in what I might be able to achieve or what I might be able to do. I have, I- I put down on my list, "Can I have five meals each week with my wife and kids where I'm fully present and not thinking about work?" Okay? It's an arbitrary number that works for me. It may not work for someone else, but it works for me, right? Secondly, if I had time to play my guitar, write a song, or go for a long run each week, then I know...... I found time to pursue my passions. And thirdly, if I release an episode of my podcast each week, which I've been doing for seven years now, I will be doing something each week to improve the lives of others. It's such a simple exercise, Chris, but I tell you in a world where we have infinite things competing for our attention, and we often think that we'll only do the important things when everything in our life is done-

   22. CWChris Williamson24:47

       Mm-hmm.

   23. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee24:48

       ... and nothing in, everything in our life is never done these days, it forces me in a really beautiful way to focus on, these are my top priorities.

   24. CWChris Williamson24:57

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4. 26:08 – 31:59

   Should You Have Regrets?

   1. CWChris Williamson26:08

      Just going back to the, uh, perfectionism thing. Regret, obviously people are going to do things, we get toward the end of our lives, we grow up, we accumulate regret. Do you think regrets are a form of perfectionism in that way?

   2. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee26:18

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson26:20

      If only I could have threaded the needle perfectly. If only I could have danced through this minefield without triggering one of them.

   4. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee26:25

      Yeah, this is one of my favorite sections in the book. This is one of the latest editions before I submitted it, is this idea that regret is a form of perfectionism, right? And I wanted to talk about this with you today 'cause I've just seen your blog from Australia-

   5. CWChris Williamson26:39

      Mm-hmm.

   6. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee26:40

      ... on YouTube, right? And you're on stage, and I don't know if this is still your view or not, but my recollection of what I saw was that you said on stage, or certainly the bit in the vlog was about this idea that we choose our regrets.

   7. CWChris Williamson26:53

      Mm-hmm.

   8. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee26:55

      So can I present my perspective, which I s- I see it a little bit differently than that?

   9. CWChris Williamson26:59

      Mm-hmm.

   10. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee26:59

       Okay. I think it is possible to live a life of no regrets. I really do. I don't think we necessarily have to choose our regrets. The definition of regret is when we look back on something with sadness or disappointment. This, this idea that we could have done something differently. I used to look back on many of m- my past experiences with guilt and shame, and I think that's what regret can do, because the reason I say that regret is a form of perfectionism is because at its core is this idea that I could have made perfect decisions. It was possible, and I'm a failure because I didn't. The problem with that kind of thinking is that it keeps us trapped into the past, and it leads to guilt and shame. And in terms of making changes that last, it won't allow you to do that because you keep beating yourself up in your mind over the things that you wish you'd done differently. Now, you can live two regret, you can live a life of no regrets in two different ways, right? You can live it, and I'm not suggesting people do this in a way where it's like, "Yeah, screw everyone else." It's my life, I'm gonna be myself and do what I do, and I'm gonna put up with the consequences. But when I say you can live a life of no regrets, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about it a slightly different way, which is, I can look back on my past and I can learn from past experiences. I can choose to believe, which I do. It's a choice, you don't have to believe this, but I would argue that your life is much happier and calmer if you choose to believe this. I choose to believe that I was always doing the best that I could based on the information I had at the time. If I choose to adopt that belief, then there's no room for regret. I was making the best decision I could. And now with hindsight, I go, "Yeah, you know what? If I'm faced with that situation again, I can act differently and I will act differently because now I know better, I will do better, but I couldn't have done better back then." And in terms of your question before, Chris, why is it that at this stage of my life I feel so good? One of the reasons, there's many, one of the reasons is because I no longer have any regrets. Every single one of my past experiences has led to me being the person that I am today. Without any of those experiences, I wouldn't have been the same person, right? I'm informed by all of those things. So, I very much do look at my past, but I use it as a way of learning about myself. I think the other way, well, I'll come to the other way in a minute. What- what's, you said in that video that you think you have to choose your regrets.

   11. CWChris Williamson29:43

       Mm-hmm.

   12. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee29:43

       I'm presenting a slightly different perspective-

   13. CWChris Williamson29:45

       Mm-hmm.

   14. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee29:45

       ... I think.

   15. CWChris Williamson29:46

       Mm-hmm.

   16. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee29:46

       What's your take on that?

   17. CWChris Williamson29:48

       Yes. I like the idea that it's very equanimous to think I did the best that I could with the information that was available at the time that I made that decision. I can't go back and change it. There's no, there's no usefulness to me having that. I think maybe regret this sort of sadness or wistfulness or nostalgia, wishing that things had been different. Perhaps that was a slightly imprecise bit of language that I used. What I'm trying to refer to is that you'll always have this open loop in the back of your mind that you wonder whether things could have been better.

   18. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee30:18

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson30:19

       Whether or not you could have done something just a little bit better, or whether that was the right decision, new job or a relationship, or go to the gym or go to the theme park or whatever it is that you should have done because opportunity cost demands that you do one thing to sacrifice another. And because you don't get to run life back and split test it, work out if the theme park was better than the gym or the gym was better than the theme park, you're always gonna have that what if in the back of your mind. So for me, this was a way for people maybe to arrive at probably not too dissimilar of a situation as yourself, which is, look, some degree of-

   20. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee30:53

       (laughs) .

   21. CWChris Williamson30:55

       ... wistful uncertainty about the past is inevitable. Holding on to it is pointless, because-

   22. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee31:01

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson31:01

       ... you don't get to do two of those. You don't get to run it back again. Um, and when you're faced with a decision, when you think, "Oh, am I going to, uh, wh- which route am I going to go down?" Consider which regret you could bear living with, as opposed to which one you couldn't bear, which decision you couldn't bear living without.

   24. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee31:18

       Yeah. No, I like that. I really like that. I think this is a really interesting topic. The other way of looking at it, Chris, is, you know, at 47 now, am I gonna really regret things I did in my 20s, in the sense that I was a different person then?

   25. CWChris Williamson31:31

       Mm-hmm.

   26. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee31:32

       But I'm a different person today than I was 12 months ago, right? So am I gonna now judge my 20-year-old self through the lens of hopefully a wiser man who's become a father, who has much more experience in the world? It seems a little unfair to judge my younger, the younger version of me-

   27. CWChris Williamson31:51

       Mm-hmm.

   28. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee31:52

       ... through my current lens.

   29. CWChris Williamson31:53

       Yeah, look at how lacking you are person that had two decades less of experience.

   30. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee31:57

       Exactly. So, it's a choice.

5. 31:59 – 43:34

   Choosing the Narrative of Your Life

   1. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee31:59

      So I, I love the thought that the way we, the way we believe, the, the, the beliefs we hold about the world, Chris, it is a choice, right? We can choose them. Like, something I've been really playing around with recently in my head is this idea that life is a set of experiences, and it's the story we put onto those experiences that ultimately determines the quality of our life. And what I didn't realize until a few years ago is that I get to choose that story. That narrative, that comes down to me. And that was taught to me on a very, very deep level by an Auschwitz survivor, Edith Eger, who I think I've spoken to you about before.

   2. CWChris Williamson32:42

      Mm-hmm.

   3. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee32:42

      This incredible lady who, when I spoke to her at 93 years old and then again at 97, she was in Auschwitz when she was 16, and she said so many things to me, Chris, which I've shared before, so I won't go through it all again. But in essence, she was able to reframe her whole experience in Auschwitz through the power of her mind. So when she was dancing for the senior prison guards as a 16-year-old young lady after her parents were murdered, she said to me, "I wasn't dancing in Auschwitz, Dr. Chatterjee. In my mind, I was in Budapest Opera House, dancing with a beautiful dress on in front of a full orchestra." She said, "Whilst I was in Auschwitz, Dr. Chatterjee, I started to see the prison guards as the prisoners. I was free in my mind. They weren't living their life." And the final words, Chris, she said, which probably is one of the main reasons why I feel so content, and Edith, uh, her teachings are in this book like they were in my last one. She said, "Rangan, listen. I have lived in Auschwitz, and I can tell you the greatest prison you will ever live inside is the prison you create inside your own minds." And I tell you, Chris, there are some conversations, as you know as a podcast host, where you're not the same person afterwards. That was one of those for me, where pre that conversation and post that conversation, I wasn't the same person. The penny dropped for me in that moment. I was like, "Oh my God, I get it." We're all putting ourselves in mental prison every day by the way we interact with the world. People don't realize that, let's make it really, really granular, let's take it away from Auschwitz to something maybe a bit more relatable for someone. People don't realize that you're driving to work in your car, and someone cuts you up on the road. You have a choice in how you respond. You may not think you have a choice, but you do. If you decide to go, as I used to do, so I'm not judging, but everything has a consequence. If you decide to react like, "Stupid driver. They need to get their eyes checked. They shouldn't be on the roads. They're a menace," whatever it might be, and you start screaming at them when they can't even hear you, A, you're not changing the situation, but B, what you have done, and this really relates to this theme of making change that lasts, you have generated emotional stress inside your body. And again, this a- again for me is one of the missing pieces in the health conversation online. Emotional stress is not neutral. You have to neutralize it in some way or another. Now, there are a variety of ways in which you can do that. So you could neutralize that emotional stress with a workout in the gym or a walk around the block. Or when you get to work, you will neutralize it by going to the vending machine and pulling out a chocolate bar, having another coffee with sugar in, having an extra glass of wine or a beer at lunch, whatever it might be. Those behaviors are there to neutralize the emotional stress that you generated by the way you interacted with that moment. You can also, and it's not that difficult, it just takes a bit of practice, you can also choose in that moment to not interact like that and go, "Wow, I can just let that go." Like I said before about regret, I choose to believe, it's a choice, that I've always done the best that I could with the information that was available to me and where I was in my life at that time. I also choose to believe that about other people. So therefore, I train myself now, it took me a few months and years, now I do it in the moment as default, but it, it, I had to consciously do it initially, where it's like, "Oh, what's going on with that other person? What, what might be going on with that other person? Oh, well, maybe it's a dad whose daughter was sick last night and they were up f- all night, and now they're rushing to work. Maybe it's a mother who's been late for work three times in the past two weeks, and she's worried she's gonna lose her job if she's late again." The truth of the situation, Chris, for your wellbeing and your ability to make changes, doesn't actually matter. It's the way you frame the situation, because in that moment then, you're not generating the emotional stress.... you're feeling internally calm, and therefore you have less of a need to engage in these unhelpful behaviors that were only there to neutralize the stress that you generated by the way you responded.

   4. CWChris Williamson37:10

      How do you ensure that you're not just telling yourself a pleasant just-so story? Because it sounds all well and good if something bad happens, and I say, "That didn't bother me," and yet my heart rate's at 110.

   5. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee37:20

      Yeah. That's a good point. So when I ta- spoke be- before about interoception, and the importance of trusting ourselves, one thing I didn't say, which I write about in that chapter right at the end, is I say, "Listen, I believe that although most of us are different, and we've got unique lives and we need slightly different approaches, I believe that the most important daily practice that any one of us can do in the 21st century is a daily practice of solitude." And when I say solitude, I'm simply talking about time with yourself, right? If you get up and the first thing you do is start consuming from the outside, whether it's news, whether it's social media, even if it's good quality information, you've lost an opportunity to listen to yourself, right? Our body is always sending us signals. And in this world of content and information, I think many of us are never getting that time to listen to ourselves. So the only way you get to know if you're telling yourself a nice story and, and kidding yourself, is by sitting with yourself every day. Only for five or 10 minutes if that's all you've got, but that could be- it could be meditation, it could be breath work, it could be some yoga moves. It could literally be having a cup of coffee and not also scrolling Instagram and email at the same time. It could be going to the toilet without taking your smartphone with you, something that many people find-

   6. CWChris Williamson38:53

      Revolutionary.

   7. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee38:54

      Seriously. But it is. The truth is, Chris, it really is to people, because these little micro-moments where you allowed your own thoughts to come up are being eroded out of life. So I'm not putting all the blame on smartphones, right? Ultimately it's just a tool. It's our relationship with the tool that determines the impact they have on us. But if you practice sitting with yourself, it doesn't have to be in the morning, I happen to think the morning's the best time for most people, you will start to know when your heart rate's going up. You will start to know when you're telling yourself fibs. I mean, one thing I do every morning, Chris, um... Well, there's a couple of things I do. One of the things I do is a breath-hold work meditation practice that I learnt from... Do you know the MovNat founder, Erwin Lacor?

   8. CWChris Williamson39:38

      No.

   9. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee39:38

      Natural movement guy. He's been promoting natural movement for years. About two years ago, I did his new breath work course online, and it was twice a week for four weeks, and it was probably one of the life- most life-changing practices I've done for me personally. And I remember 'cause I was on a book tour as it happened at the time, I'd just arrived in Stockholm, and I got to my hotel room, I was running a bit late for the course. And I got there and it was online, and the first thing he asked us, and there was maybe about 12 of us on this Zoom together. He said, "All right. I want everyone to, like, take a full breath in, as much as you can, and then time how long you can hold it for." And I did about 60 seconds, something like that. "Okay, that was your benchmark." Just to be really clear, this is nothing like, uh, Wim Hof and the hyperventilation before, and there's nothing like that. It's purely take a breath and hold. There's nothing to prepare your body for. Within four weeks, Chris, I went from one minute to four minutes and 20 seconds. And it's n- it's not like the Wim Hof where you hyperventilate to blow off carbon dioxide first, which allows you to hold your breath for longer. In fact, Erwin would say that's akin to doing cold immersion with a wetsuit on. That's his words, not mine. But it was really powerful, Chris, and I'll tell you why it was so powerful, because I learnt that it was all to do with your mind. My CO2, carbon dioxide tolerance did not change that much in four weeks to go from one minute to four minutes and 20 seconds. My physiology did not change that quickly. What that course taught me is that when you think you need to breathe, so you're lying there in silence and your body is screaming for you to breathe, if you can quieten your mind, if you can quieten the thoughts, which you can do, you can go for another minute. All of those thoughts, all of those things that are going around your mind, any tension you have in your body, it's bleeding energy.

   10. CWChris Williamson41:45

       I think that that's the way that, um, divers-

   11. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee41:49

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson41:49

       ... uh, free divers often pass out underwater. It's- they don't gasp and breathe air in, they just are going and going and going and then (fingers snapping) lights out.

   13. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee41:58

       Yeah. So again, I wasn't doing this near water, he wasn't proposing anyone was doing it near water. But why I shared that is because this is a practice that I do each morning, right? It's not about the breath hold, it's about knowing when your body is literally screaming for you to take a breath, which is probably one of the most primal things your body can say to you, in that moment, I've learnt I still got control over my mind and I can go longer, which basically means most things in life become quite trivial in comparison.

   14. CWChris Williamson42:32

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6. 43:34 – 57:55

   Are Non-Negotiables Actually Helpful?

   1. CWChris Williamson43:34

      You mentioned, uh, morning routines and stuff like that. What is your perspective on non-negotiables now?

   2. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee43:45

      I don't believe in non-negotiables anymore. Um-

   3. CWChris Williamson43:47

      You negotiated the non-negotiables away?

   4. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee43:49

      Well, I'm... We've spoken about perfectionism, right? So let me try and draw a connection between this and perfectionism. As a perfectionist in recovery, I don't believe that this idea of non-negotiables is helpful to me, because again, a non-negotiable implies that I will not negotiate on this. "I will always do this." For me, there's hints of perfectionism there, right? Because everything in life is negotiable, Chris, everything. Nothing is a non-negotiable. So I could tell you, for example, that, um, I'm a calm, peaceful person, which I am, and I will never be violent, right? That's a non-negotiable for me. Always gonna be peaceful. Well, hold on a minute. What if I was out with my two children and someone was trying to attack them and threaten us? My non-negotiable suddenly becomes negotiable. I could quite easily believe in that moment I could become violent. If it was to protect my two children, who I love with all my hearts, yeah, I probably would. That may seem quite extreme, but I love going to extremes, Chris, 'cause I think it's in the extremes where you learn the voracity and the truth about a concept. Edith Eger in Auschwitz, at the extreme... She was living in hell, and even in hell, she could reframe her experience using her mind. I use that in my life to go, "Hey, Rangan, you're struggling to reframe what that driver did, or that email that someone sent you. You know what, Rangan? Edith could reframe stuff in Auschwitz. You can probably reframe this in your life." Right? I use it as inspiration for me, not to beat me up, to inspire me. And so, why non-negotiables for me can be a problematic concept, I think... I, I've also got to be clear, Chris. Different concepts land for different people in a different way depending on where they are in life, right? So let's say you're struggling with your health and you're feeling lost. You're feeling lonely. You don't know how you're gonna get any motivation to move forward in your life. A non-negotiable might actually be really good for you, where you go, "No, actually, every day I'm gonna wake up, I'm gonna do that five-minute workout. And I'm gonna go and have a cold shower for 30 seconds." And by not missing for three months, you literally change your identity and how you view yourself.

   5. CWChris Williamson46:09

      Mm.

   6. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee46:10

      But I've been through that process. I'm in a different stage of my life now, where a non-negotiable to me ends up beating myself up in my head. I'll give you an example of how that played out for me. I actually find behavior change quite easy these days, and I believe that one of the central ideas in this book is that effortless change is possible when you get to the root, but we're not getting to the root, right? So, I can imagine four years ago on New Year's Day, I would wake up and be like, "Right, that's it, Chatterjee. You are nailing meditation this year, right? You've seen the studies. Lowers stress, lowers anxiety, uh, can increase the matter in your brain, the brain function, right? That is it. This year, it's happening." And I would nail it. 20 minutes a day, first week, second week. I wouldn't miss a day, let's say, the third week of January. Oh my God, Chris, I would beat myself up in my head, "Oh, you, you just couldn't do it, could you, this year? Stupid, right? You know it's important. You couldn't do it." That was my pattern, right? And so that was a non-negotiable for me, which meant that when I missed it, because I said it was a non-negotiable in my head, I felt less than, I felt bad, I felt guilt, I felt shame. It plays into perfectionism, which means I stopped doing it, right? I'm, "Oh, God, I'll try again next year." This all or nothing type approach. Whereas now, I have a much kinder relationship with myself. I don't have that negative inner voice anymore, um, unless I'm really, really stressed and sleep-deprived, which again, it's a signal for me to go, "Oh, wow, I need to start looking after myself." Whereas now, I do meditate most mornings, but if I miss, I'm like, "Oh, oh, God, I missed today. I'm actually a better human being when I do meditate. I'm more focused, I'm more present with the people around me. Actually, tomorrow I'm gonna start meditating again." It's a much healthier relationship with that behavior. For me, it's a balance between discipline and compassion. And Chris, another idea that I've been thinking a lot about, um... 'Cause I think a lot about behavior change. You know, 80 to 90% of what doctors today see is in some way related to our collective modern lifestyles. I'm not putting blame on people, Chris, when I say that. I'm just saying the way we live, the food, environments, our sedentary jobs, the chronic stress, the rates of burnout, the sleep deprivation, the environmental toxins, whatever it might be, it's causing us to be sick. And one thing I've realized, Chris, look, I really think this holds true in every situation, it's not the behavior, it's the energy behind the behavior, and I actually genuinely believe that every single behavior either comes from the energy of fear or the energy of love. Now, that may sound really spiritual, and I am becoming more spiritual as I get older, but I think to, you know, although you're an American now, although you live in America now, you're still a Brit by birth, right? Like me.

   7. CWChris Williamson49:15

      Adopted. Adopted.

   8. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee49:16

      Right? So this idea of love, and that we can love ourselves, is quite an alien concept, I think, in the UK, right? We don't like to say that. But I can, on this mic, in front of you today, say... Although I, I still struggle to say it, right? I was gonna s- I was gonna initially say, "Look, I, I really quite like myself," but dare I say, "I love myself," not in a narcissistic way. Like, I'm clear on what my values are. My three core values are...... integrity, curiosity, and compassion. Those are the three values I believe represent who I am and who I would like to be. So, I regularly assess in the evenings, maybe on a Sunday, you know, how much of this week, Rangan, were you in alignment with your values? When did you behave? When did you not behave, for example? And when you get to that point, you find that everything within you is quite aligned, so behavior change becomes quite easy. Because when I used to struggle with behavior change, it was because the behaviors were coming from an energy of fear, so what does that mean? Guilt, shame. "I'm not good enough." What do most people do in January, or whenever they're trying to make change? They're trying to overcome the person who they think that they are, right? A lot of the time in January, they're beating themselves up, Chris. They're like, "I'm not good enough. My stomach's not flat enough. I'm not enough. Let me beat myself up with my behaviors to overcome that." That works for a few weeks. It might work for a few months, but in my clinical experience, it never works in the long term. At some point, that energy has to change where you actually quite like yourself. You're doing it not because you're trying to avoid something, but because you're trying to get towards something. Actually, I want to have a stronger body. I wanna have a clearer mind. I feel that it's the way I can become a better human. I can be a better father when I look after myself. And again, going back to your earlier question, Chris, what is it about me now at 47 where I, I feel this sense of calm? I think for me, becoming a father has been a huge part of that. You know, my son is 14, so I've been a f- a dad now for, you know, almost 15 years. And again, I, I want to acknowledge, not everyone needs to have a child to see this. A lot of people are choosing not to have children for a variety of reasons. Hey, I'm okay with all of that. For me personally, it's been transformative. You know, suddenly having kids, you just can't be as me-focused anymore. You realize there's more to you than just you and your experience. There's other people who depend on you. So, going back to perfectionism, and let me dr- let me sort of connect the kids and me as a dad to my perfectionist tendencies. We look at these people, these heroes. We put them on pedestals. You'll have people, Chris, in your audience, who are putting you on pedestals, who-who are putting you on a pedestal. They're like, "Oh my God, Chris is an amazing podcast host." Which-

   9. CWChris Williamson52:20

      Too smart. They're too smart to put me on a pedestal.

   10. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee52:22

       But I reckon some will be, mate, right? And the reason why I think this is problematic, and I, I suspect you would agree with this, is because they're seeing one aspect of your life. They're seeing you on the mic. They're seeing your vlog when you're crushing it in Australia. Unless you're showing this, and maybe I haven't seen this on your platforms, they're not seeing the mornings when you wake up absolutely shattered, when you're... You think, "I've got 12 podcasts to do in five days in London. Why did I sign up for so many?" What is the consequence on you, your well-being, your relationships from doing that? Now, I'm not here criticizing or judging. I'm just simply saying if people want to be you, they can't have one aspect of you. They need the whole aspect.

   11. CWChris Williamson53:02

       Mm-hmm.

   12. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee53:02

       You can't just be 1% Chris Williamson. You have to be 100% Chris Williamson.

   13. CWChris Williamson53:06

       No one wants to be that. Never go full Chris Williamson. One, uh... (laughs)

   14. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee53:09

       Do you get what I'm saying though?

   15. CWChris Williamson53:10

       I do. I do. I, I... It's something that I've, I've spoken about for a long time, the fact that you don't get to pick parts of people's lives. You have to take the whole. Uh, George Mack has this great idea, the, the difference between Call of Duty and war. He says you look at a lot of people's lives, and you assume that that's what you get to do, but you're just watching them in the lobby of Call of Duty dicking about. Then they actually... Y- you get and see their life, and it's IEDs and it's dust and it's re-, uh, b- like, uh, reloading weapons, and it's like, it's war. Uh, it's not fun. And, um, for the most part, I think, yeah, we try to curate what we put out because we don't want to be a buzzkill, because we don't want to come across as somebody that isn't, uh, enjoying their lives. Um, but yeah, I think, you know, we spoke about this last time. I'm kind of interested in this line that you've hinted at a couple of times, which is sort of between busyness and success, uh, the sort of lineage between the two, and, um, the sort of need that we have to feel important and how a busy calendar can sort of be a hedge against existential loneliness. What have you come to believe about busyness and success?

   16. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee54:17

       Let me just respond to what you just said, and I will come to that. I promise.

   17. CWChris Williamson54:20

       Mm-hmm.

   18. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee54:25

       You can't just take that one aspect, like I mentioned about Jon Bon Jovi, like you just mentioned, right? You can't be Tiger Woods and just take the 15 Majors without the painkiller addiction, without the public humiliation, right?

   19. CWChris Williamson54:38

       Mm-hmm.

   20. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee54:38

       You can't. You can't take the 28 Olympic gold medals that Michael Phelps has without the depression and the suicide attempts. You can't take Johnny Wilkinson's World Cup medal without the 10 years of pain that followed that, right? So many of these heroes have paid a huge cost to get where they are, huge cost. And we often just look at the upside and not the downside, and that's where that Write Your Own Happy Ending exercise, I think, can be so useful. It sounds simple. "Oh, just a little, what, a little three-question exercise?" Yeah, just a little three-question exercise. These things can help us reframe our lives in quite a huge way. Now, you mentioned busyness, right? And chapter eight is all about business and this idea that busyness is success. And the reliance... Because everything in this book is about a reliance we have, right? So, I believe busyness comes from our reliance on feeling important. So, both you and I have spoken to Will Storr before on our podcast, author of many great books, but The Status Game is a really good book that Will wrote. And in that book, he makes the case that status is a universal driver in all humans.But status is not the amount of YouTube followers you've got, the amounts of Instagram followers you've got, your celebrity status. Will makes a case that status actually is that feeling that we are of value to other people, right? And I think it is what drives us all. Now, I think many of us now in the 21st century are living these disconnected lives. We've moved away from our communities, our tribes, the people that know us, the people that knew us, and we might have moved away for work opportunity, right? Which is fantastic. But there's a consequence. Sometimes we- we just don't feel of value. In the- in the old hunter-gatherer tribes, you would know your value. You were either, you know, you were the forager, you were the hunter. There was something that you were providing to the people around you. This is probably one of the main reasons why people who follow religious practices, not are religious, but people who follow religious practices are happier and healthier than those who don't, because a lot of those religious practices, depending on which religion you are talking about, are about doing things for others, showing you to be of value to others. But I think we have a value deficiency in the modern world where we don't know that we're of value to others. So some of the way we get that is by overworking and pushing ourselves really, really hard, because then you can say, "Yeah, I am important." You know, I have this reliance on feeling important, and now I think that reliance, that overreliance, I should say, is pushing many people beyond what they can cope with, and it's making them sick. This is why this matters so much to me, Chris. I have seen time and time again over the years in clinical practice, people who thought they could keep pushing, nothing will happen to them. They can keep pushing. They're the superheroes, right? Until they get hit with the autoimmune illness, and they wish, "Oh, man, I didn't need to do this. I wish I'd stopped earlier.

7. 57:55 – 1:07:20

   How Stress Can Cause Autoimmune Illness

   1. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee57:55

      I wish-"

   2. CWChris Williamson57:55

      Why do- why do autoimmune illnesses come for people that push themselves too much?

   3. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee57:59

      Okay. Well, there's many theories on autoimmune illness. The theory that makes the most sense to me is from, uh, Dr. Astello Fasano from Harvard, and basically he says there are three criteria that someone needs to get an autoimmune illness. Genetic susceptibility, increased intestinal permeability, and an environmental stressor, right? I'll explain what that means. So you need to have the gene w- if you don't have the genes for an autoimmune illness, you're not gonna get it, okay? But that's not enough. You need it, but it's not sufficient in and of itself. You also need something that's called increased intestinal permeability, colloquially is called leaky gut. Basically when, you know, our guts are all a bit leaky, but when it actually becomes problematic, okay? In essence is a simplified way of saying that, but even with those two things, according to his theory, you won't get it. You need a third thing, an environmental stressor. So for someone with celiac disease, for example, which is a allergy to gluten, that would be consuming gluten. That would be the environmental stressor. But a very common one for many people is stress, right? I would see in my practice for many years, Chris, autoimmune illness. I used to really enjoy seeing, when I say enjoy, (laughs) as a- as a doctor, I was fascinated by the development of autoimmune illness and what you could do with your lifestyle to alleviate things, right? So I would see a lot of it in my practice. I would say in over 95% of cases, in the six months preceding the diagnosis, there was heavy, heavy stress in that person's life. Work stress, bereavement, losing your house, losing your job, something which might have been the final trigger, and there's loads of case studies in the book where I share people who already had enough, and they pushed past it for more. I genuinely believe that the biggest disease in society these days, Chris, is- is the disease of more. More money, more followers, more downloads, more, more, more is gonna make us happy. And the phrase that I think about a lot is from the Dao De Jing. It's my- f- one of my favorite quotes that I reflect on a lot of the time. I was on the train down from the northwest this morning, I'm thinking about it. True wealth is knowing what is enough. I think that's the million dollar question for so many of us, Chris, what is enough? Like, well, at what point do you have enough? Why I feel so happy and content these days is 'cause I have got very clear that I have enough. I really do, right? So I've got a wife who loves me, right? I've just passed 17 years of marriage last week, and we're as happy as we've ever been. I've got two kids who I love and who love me and want to spend time with me, right? I've got a job that I love and that provides me and my family a great quality of life. I'm winning, right? And this may interest you, Chris. Two years ago, my son at the time was 12, and I can't remember, it was the weekend, I was maybe uploading something to YouTube or looking at something related to my podcast, right? And I don't know how we got onto this topic, but I remember saying to him something like, I said, "Oh, son, you know what? I've heard from people if I go to two episodes a week, you 4X the show." Right? Or something to- maybe it was three years ago. Right? And you release two episodes a week, so you know what I- three episodes a week, so you know what I'm talking about, right? So he said, "Well, daddy, why don't you do that? You know, your show will be even bigger and more successful than it already is." And I said, "Hey, son, listen. If I go from one episode to two episodes a week-"You know those weekends where we play football in the garden, or we go for a walk, or we sit and play cards, or we go on bike rides together? I probably won't be around to do those things, 'cause I'll be in the studio recording intros, recording outros, whatever it might be, right? So, I've had to get real clarity, because as you remember from last time we spoke, Chris, you may remember, I used to be very competitive. But that came from a feeling of lack, because as a kid, as I explained to you last time, Chris, I took on the belief that I was only loved when I was top of the class and I got full marks. That was nobody's fault. I'm not blaming anyone. My parents were immigrants to the UK. Their way of having their kids not face the problems that they had was by pushing you to be a straight-A student and become a doctor, because then you won't have any problems in life. I took on the belief as a young boy that I'm only loved when I'm top dog, right? But then you go into the world, where you're now competing with eight billion people, that's a very toxic belief system, right? And I'm no longer competitive, 'cause being competitive, Chris, was- was not who I was, it was who I became in response to my upbringing. And now that I understand that and I've done the work, and there's loads of practices in this book that will help people with that, I'm not competitive anymore. It never was who I was. So, I can, for example, look at my life and go, "Hey, Ranga, you know what? I'm doing great," right? If you had told me 10 years ago that, "Ranga, you're gonna have five Sunday Times bestsellers, you're gonna be happily married, you're gonna have two kids that love you, you're gonna have a top 10 podcast in the UK, the most listened to health podcast in Europe," right? If you were gonna have those things, I wouldn't have believed you, Chris. But I have all those things and it's very easy... I could look at you, I could look at other people who are- who are, you know... And I'm not saying this in a bad way, I'm saying it genuinely in an honest way, and go, "Oh, you know, it'd be good to do that, or go to two a week, or go to three a week." And I'm like, "Oh, wait a minute, it's the unmeasurables in life where- is where the gold is." It's the unmeasurables, Chris. I've really, really got that in my head. The most important things in life I don't believe can be measured by society's metrics. So, I can't give you a number, I can't give you a- an official measurement of how happy my wife and I are. I can't give you a, um, a number like I can with my Instagram followers or podcast downloads that tells you what joy I get from my children. And the- the reason why I keep coming back to the Daodejing quotes, "True wealth is knowing what is enough," is the reason we keep pushing, is that so many people... And I've had patients who already had enough, and they keep thinking that more is what they need. Hey, we're all individuals. We've all gotta find this truth on our own, on our own path. But I have pushed really hard in the past and I don't want to do it anymore. Like, I- I feel like I'm winning. I've got a job that I love, I've got a family that I love, I'm in great health. Like, does... Do you know what I mean, Chris?

   4. CWChris Williamson1:05:10

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, you know, the sacrifices that you make in order to get to the place that you want to be is- is... And it's an interesting one to think about what you need to do in the beginning. You're right, if somebody has 200 pounds to lose, having some non-negotiables might not be too bad of an idea. But if you're a little bit further down your journey, you're still whipping yourself into submission, even though you're already performing at a pretty high level. Why did you put all of that work in in the first place? Was it not so that you can actually enjoy this a little bit? Was it not so that you could be happy? And I think that, you know, maybe this is part of the sort of phases of- of podcasting generally, or whatever you wanna call it, personal development information on the internet, that lots of people were probably first introduced to this type of content about 10 years ago, within sort of 5 to 10 years ago. And there's this huge, big generation of people that have moved through it. And I do get the sense that the work-until-your-eyes-bleed, optimize-every-second-of-your-life thing is getting a little old. Now, I've certainly found for myself that I- I'm less sort of compelled by that. I'm much more compelled by trying to find balance, by trying to find enjoyment in the things that I do, by optimizing for fun as opposed to just success. This episode is brought to you by Function. I partnered with Function because I wanted a smarter, more comprehensive way to understand what's happening inside of my body. Twice a year, they run lab tests that monitor over 100 biomarkers, and their team of expert physicians will analyze the data and give you actionable advice to improve your health and lifespan. If you've been feeling a bit sluggish, your testosterone levels might be a problem. They play a massive role in your energy and performance, and being able to see them charted over the course of a year with actionable insights to actually improve them gives you a clear path to making your life better. Dr. Andrew Huberman is the scientific advisor, and Dr. Mark Hyman is their chief medical officer, so you can trust that the data and insights you receive are as scientifically sound as they are actionable. Getting these lab tests done would usually cost thousands, but with Function it is only $500. Right now, you can get Function's expert blood work analysis and bypass their 300,000-person wait list by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. That's functionhealth.com/modernwisdom.

8. 1:07:20 – 1:15:20

   How Chris Finds Balance

   1. CWChris Williamson1:07:20

   2. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee1:07:20

      How- how do you find balance, Chris? 'Cause from- from where I'm sitting here, and you know that I think you're a wonderful podcast, it's not that you need that validation from me, right? But I do. I- I- I, you know... I think- I think the way you conduct your shows is full of integrity, and I really like the presence that you bring to these conversations. But from the outside, I'm like, you're doing a lot, right?

   3. CWChris Williamson1:07:42

      I've sent it this year. Yeah, that's one way to put it. Uh, look, I-

   4. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee1:07:46

      But you may be aware that you're making a trade-off at the moment.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:07:48

      I- I certainly am. And, uh, you know, at the moment, no family, no kids, et cetera, uh, that's not always gonna be the case. Uh, so I have, in many ways, a competitive advantage, and other people do too. Uh, that...... if you don't have that many responsibilities, then perhaps you can... Uh, we had a lot of questions at the Q&As at the live shows I did in Australia and in, some in London as well, you know, "I'm 22 and I really want to achieve a lot in the world, but I also know that sort of, like, life balance and all the rest of it." I'm like, "Bro, you can aim for life balance when you're, like, in your 30s. Just fucking end some worlds for a decade. Like, go and see how much chaos you can create and, and see how fast you can grow and see how much stuff you can do." And maybe not everybody is built for that. Maybe you could say, "Well, you could frontload all of the enjoyment early on." I don't know. But for me, uh, I am actively prioritizing trying to make life more enjoyable and trying to have as much fun as I can as consistently as I can at the moment, uh, trying to find ways to swim dr- downstream instead of upstream.

   6. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee1:08:48

      The, the danger is, Chris, not, not for you I would say, not because you're not asking me for advice and I don't give unsolicited advice, I certainly try not to these days, um, the danger what I see and I've seen in patients is that we think this is just for a short period of time, right? So back in my 20s, uh, a friend of my friends was a banker in London. He goes, "I'm just gonna crush it in my 20s. I'm gonna go hit it hard, do what I need to do, make enough money where I can then chill out in my 30s and 40s and 50s." Well, he's still there now at 47.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:09:22

      Mm-hmm.

   8. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee1:09:23

      You know, overworking. He's got loads of money, but his relationship with his wife is on the rocks. His kids don't wanna spend time with him. It's a cliche, but he's-

   9. CWChris Williamson1:09:32

      Why do people not let go? Why?

   10. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee1:09:35

       Well, I think it's for a couple of reasons. I think this, uh, overreliance on feeling important, if you f- if you get that value only from your work and you've neglected the other things in your life, whether consciously or unconsciously, that will keep pulling you, right? 'Cause you wanna feel, we all wanna feel that we're of value to people. I think sometimes we don't take stock of our life, you know? I think, you know, there's a strategy in your 20s that may work, but that may not work in your 30s, and you have to constantly reevaluate and go, "Is the strategy that I was using still working for me?" That's what I do regularly, you know, that write your own happy ending exercise, the three deathbed questions, the three current present day questions, that's a regular reflection activity. Um, another question I ask myself every morning, I do three questions each morning with my morning coffee. Um, what is one thing I deeply appreciate about my life? Very simple question of gratitude, which has a lot of science to back it up. Okay, so that takes me a minute to answer that. The question I really like is the second one. What is the most important thing I have to do today? And that question, it helps you cut through all the noise of your to-do list and it makes you choose what is the most important thing I have to do today? And it's such a deceptively powerful question, because like I said before, Chris, so often we only do the important things in life when everything else is done, but everything else is never done. So that question makes you choose one priority, right? I don't know if you know this, I think Greg McKeown told me this for the fir- fir- first time that when the word priority came into the English language in the 1500s, it was only singular.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:11:26

       Yeah. Priorities didn't exist.

   12. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee1:11:28

       Didn't exist, but now we've, we've got, oh, I've got 20 priorities today. Well, that's probably why you're overly stressed and busy. You know, a, a standard week for me, like the week before I went to America, I went recently, um, I remember the week before then on the Monday, 'cause my flight I think was on the Thursday. On the Monday, I put down because this book is coming out, I had a, I had, I had an article to, to submit to Penguin. So that morning it was the most important thing I have to do is complete that article and send it to Penguin. It doesn't mean my relationship with my wife and my children wasn't important that day or my other work commitments, but I decided in the morning that's a win today. If I get that done, today's a win. Tuesday was, you know what? I'm gonna be away for two weeks. My wife is just away at the weekend. When the kids are in bed tonight the most important thing I do is spend some quality time with my wife.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:12:18

       Mm-hmm.

   14. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee1:12:19

       Okay? On the Wednesday, I remember very clearly what I put down because I'm going away, not only because I'm going away but what I felt like putting down there was I'm working from home today. When my children come in at 4:30 from school today, the most important thing I have to do today is make sure my laptop is closed and my phone is in another room so that I'm fully present to what they have to tell me. Because these things may sound really simple. I can guarantee to anyone who's listening or watching right now, if all you do is answer that question each day for the next seven days, I guarantee your experience of life will change for the better in the next seven days. Do it for 30 days, your life will feel different because that will be you specifying 30 important things and doing those 30 important things. And the sense of achievement and inner wellbeing and self-esteem that you build from doing stuff like that is so powerful 'cause we have a negativity bias, so our brain is always drawn to what we didn't do. "I didn't get that email done. I didn't prepare properly for that podcast guest who's coming tomorrow," whatever it might be. This goes, no, no, this is the most important thing and I'm gonna make sure I get this done today. Again, I love simple things that don't cost any money because I've worked, Chris, for years in all kinds of practices. I've worked in affluent areas, but I've also worked in very socially deprived areas, and I hand on heart, I believe that every single person should have access to quality information that helps them, and so where possible... You know, because I'm- I, I live in this online health and wellness space and people will say, "Oh, this health and wellness world, it's for the middle classes. It's for people who can afford all the fancy stuff." Right? I was just in LA and Austin.... and LA must be like- and of course it was because of the people I was hanging out with and the podcast I was going on. But, you know, if you live in LA, or certainly where I was, it, it feels like sauna, and cold plunge, and red light is the norm. But it's not the norm for most people around the world. Nothing wrong with those things at all, they can be absolutely very beneficial. But I'm always thinking, great for people who can, no problem, but how do you give health information to people who don't have the means? Who maybe can't afford those things, or don't have a cold plunge in their back garden, right? I also really, really want to help them and I'm- one of the proudest things that I have for this book, Chris, is that every single thing I've recommended is free of charge. Right? So, it means that everyone can basically apply no matter who they are or where they live.

   15. CWChris Williamson1:15:02

       Can you talk to me about this relationship between taking offense and our health?

   16. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee1:15:07

       Man, this is my f- probably my favorite chapter, after chapter one is chapter five, which is called Take Less Offense, right? I'll tell you the opening story in there 'cause I think it really illustrates this concept well.

9. 1:15:20 – 1:27:48

   The Link Between Health & Being Offended

   1. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee1:15:21

      I remember when the news of the George Floyd death went around the world, okay? And I was in the UK. It was in the middle of a psychologically taxing lockdown. Whatever people's views are on lockdowns, no matter what your view is, these were challenging times for people, right? And everyone's feeling quite stressed because of the state of the world and everything's shut and everything's closed down. And I'm very clear that I have a public profile to help people with their health, their happiness, and their wellbeing. So, I don't comment on certain things in general. People want you to comment on everything, but I'm very clear on what my public profile is about. I try and talk about things I have expertise and experience in, and I try not to talk about things that I don't, right? (laughs)

   2. CWChris Williamson1:16:12

      Revolutionary.

   3. RCDr Rangan Chatterjee1:16:13

      Revolutionary. But that did really affect me for a variety of reasons, and I spent two or three days thinking about it. I accept I'm not an American, so I don't- I didn't grow up with this history of the race issues that have been there in America, right? I'm putting that all out on the table. But I am from an immigrant family, and you know, there's been elements of discrimination that my family have faced in the past. So, I put out a post on Instagram, a carefully thought out post where I, I explained that the imp- you know, I explained, you know, some of my thoughts. But then I explained the impact that racism can have, right? And I shared an example when my wife... So, my wife is born and brought up in the UK like me, but of an Indian background like me. I shared an experience that she had as a kid where she was living in North Manchester and basically one afternoon at the weekends, the BNP, the British National Party, threw a brick through their window. So, she's a young girl watching telly and a brick comes through the window. That is a traumatic experience, right? And I shared that, and what's really interesting is that most people were very supportive of the post and were, um, were happy that I had added my voice to what seemed like a very important cultural conversation at the time. But there was quite a few, Chris, who took offense to what I had written and they were saying, you know, shame on me, this is not an Asian issue, Dr. Chatterjee, this is a Black issue, you have no right to comment or explain this at this time. And initially I was like, have I done something wrong here? You know what it's like now with the, the PC state of the world, have I, have I, have I done something wrong? And then I thought about it and I thought, this is ridiculous. I haven't signed up to any code of conducts anywhere that determines how I should or should not respond to the killing of a man by a police officer 3,000 miles away. I'm fully entitled to respond how I see fit in a way that is compassionate, that is kind, that is full of integrity, I'm fully entitled to. But a few people, quite a few people took offense to what I had written. And I thought, this is really interesting. Really, really interesting. People are taking offense, and I think this problem is just out of control now, Chris. People are walking around taking offense to everything that they see online and it's a problem, right? It's a real problem. And I, I, I'll- I'm gonna explain the relationship to our health and our behaviors. When you take offense to something, usually you are generating that emotional stress inside you. "I can't believe they posted that, they were so out of order for posting that," you're working yourself up, right? So, you are no longer calm inside. You've elevated your sympathetic nervousness, and you've elevated the levels of stress and emotional stress in your body, and you will need to neutralize that emotional stress in some way. You will have to, it doesn't just dissipate, right? And you can do it in helpful ways, you can do it in unhelpful ways. So, for many people the way that they do it, as I've already mentioned, is alcohol, sugar, pornography, gambling, three hours doom scrolling, right? This is why this sort of stuff matters to me. I wanna help people change their behaviors. Yes, we can talk to them about sugar and alcohol, but what I think makes this book, I think quite unique, is this more philosophical approach to health and behaviors than we typically get. If you're someone who is regularly taking offense, you are generating unnecessary emotional stress in yourself. I did this for years, Chris. So, I, I, I, I, I can... I'm not judging. I know what that feels like. But when you don't, right? Because there's a certain amount of arrogance that is needed to take offense, and I'll tell you what I mean by that, right?If you're taking offense to certain things, on some level, you're saying, "That person should think the same as me," right? "They have no right to think differently to me. And in a world of 8 billion people, how can it possibly be, Chris, that everyone is gonna agree with you? They are not." And a point which I think a lot of people don't realize is that nothing is inherently offensive. It cannot be. Why not? If the thing was inherently offensive, it means every single person interacting with the thing would take offense. But if they don't, it means it's not the thing that is offensive, it's something within you that's being lit by that thing. Once you get that, you get life, because you understand that instead of blaming other people for our internal responses, you own it. You go, "Actually, no, no, this is something ... Why does that comment bother me so much? What is it inside of me that is being lit by that?" You can apply this same thing to criticism, Chris, right? Uh, it's hard for me to get out of podcast host, uh, mode, 'cause I really wanna ask you questions (laughs) even though it's your show, right? So, I, I do wanna... I'd love to know your relationship with criticism, um, that whenever you face it on YouTube, or on Instagram, or wherever, 'cause you can't have a successful show like this and not get criticism. It's simply not possible.

Episode duration: 1:39:06