The Lie that Ruined a Generation - Brett Cooper (4K)

Chris Williamson 0:00 You got married.

Brett Cooper 0:01 I did.

Chris Williamson 0:01 How's that been?

Brett Cooper 0:02 It's the best thing I've ever done. Seriously. It's- it's... We got married on, um, March 30th of this year, so very recently. And best day of my life, best decision. Obviously, it's like a baby marriage. It's very new. Um, but it's been amazing. I'm grateful for him. I'm grateful for the institution of marriage. It's just... Yeah, it's been wonderful.

Chris Williamson 0:25 Getting married at 22 is a pretty radical thing-

Brett Cooper 0:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 0:28 ...to do for someone with a career.

Brett Cooper 0:29 Yes, it is. It is. It was, um... It's interesting. I have always known I wanted to be married. I've always known that I wanted to be a mother. You know, I had a career in Hollywood. I was a child actor for 10-plus years. And I remember I had a conversation with my best friend at the time. We were walking through Burbank, I think I was, like, 15 years old, and we were talking about our dreams and hopes. And she had just, you know... She was pinned for a new series, and she was like, "This is all I've ever wanted," and we were talking about all of that. And I brought up a concern that I had had basically since I started in this industry and started working with adults, 'cause that's one of the cool things and also something that gets very dicey in Hollywood, is that you're working with adults constantly. For me, in my experience, it ended up working out very well 'cause I was exposed to people who were much more successful than I was, were further along in their careers. I got to see how they were operating, how they balanced their career and family and marriage, and I did not like what I saw. And so, like, in the back of my mind, I was like, "I know that I want to be the type of mother that my mom is, where she walked away from her career and she dedicated every fiber of her being to being a mother." That was her career. It was like, you know, very, very intentional. "I'm going to raise the best human beings possible." I wanted to be that engaged. And I saw the mothers that I worked with on shows, the fathers. I saw the 35-year-old series regulars on Netflix who were still living in condos with four other roommates, who couldn't afford to buy a house or support a family in Los Angeles. So, in my teen years, I was just like, "This is not... This isn't compatible. This isn't what I want." And I'd been, like, wrestling with that. And so in this conversation with my friend, I said, "You know, that isn't really, at the end of the day, what I want. What I want is to be a wife and a mother." And I never, like, actually expressed that to her, even though she was one of my best friends. And she tur- whipped her head around and was like, "You are willing to give up your career for that?" And I didn't even say that. I had not insinuated it. I was just saying, you know, "At the end of the day, that's what I want." She was like, "You're willing to walk away from everything and sacrifice. You will never be as successful because that's what you want." She was like, "I'm not willing to do that." And so it was kind of like the people who wanted to be married and wanted to be mothers didn't want it enough, um, and that those choices, those personal choices, weren't valid. And so that ha- that had always been what I had heard. And I was undeterred, obviously, and so, yes, it is pretty radical. But even in this industry of, like, being in media, being more on the right, I still heard it. Still heard it from conservatives, of like, "You're on the up and up. Are you sure you want to do that?" From people that are pro-family and pro-marriage. I was like-

Chris Williamson 2:59 Mm-hmm.

Brett Cooper 2:59 ... "Oh (laughs) , this really is radical."

Chris Williamson 3:01 It's crazy the reality distorting, warping sense of success.

Brett Cooper 3:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 3:07 That success is so rare and it's so celebrated that anybody that gets even the tiniest-

Brett Cooper 3:12 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 3:12 ... little bit of it, even people who are ostensibly pro-family-

Brett Cooper 3:16 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 3:16 ... would say, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, but, like, don't let go of the more important thing-

Brett Cooper 3:19 Yes.

Chris Williamson 3:19 ... which is the success and the status."

Brett Cooper 3:21 Yes, yeah. It's... It was a wake-up call for sure. But again, I- I knew that that is what I wanted. I knew that I had found the person that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. Um, my parents did not have a good marriage, so this was... It wasn't something that I grew up idolizing or wanting. That wasn't an example that... You know, I didn't want to be married because of my parents, because I had seen how wonderful it was.

Chris Williamson 3:46 Almost in spite of it.

Brett Cooper 3:47 Yes. Because I knew that it was the foundation of your life and it could make or break your life. Because I saw friends with incredible, incredible parents who were deeply in love and the way that their children turned out and the way that their home operated-

Chris Williamson 4:01 Hmm.

Brett Cooper 4:01 ... the way that each of those individual successes, the husband and the wife, were propelled because of how good their marriage was and how that could work. And then I saw my parents on the other end and, you know, they love them both, but they picked poorly. They're not compatible. They're much better as friends. They are still friends today. I think they're (laughs) much better friends now and they get along much better.

Chris Williamson 4:20 Mm-hmm.

Brett Cooper 4:20 But I do believe that they held each other back in what they wanted to accomplish because they had very different ideas of where they wanted to take our family, what they wanted to do career-wise, just their base values. I mean, even when they voted, they would, you know, axe each other out every single time. Uh, and that says a lot. And so I saw my mother struggle. I saw my father struggle. I saw them butt heads and know that that held both of them back. And so that was so important to me from the get-go of, like, number one, it has to be the right person, but I think it was more important for me to get married young. I actually think it was a- a good thing for me to get married at this point in my career because I am... It has been like a rocket ship and it's been very destabilizing at points-

Chris Williamson 5:05 Mm-hmm.

Brett Cooper 5:05 ... and that's been my rock. The relationship, him, and now this marriage. It's like, that's what I get to come home to. That's the one thing that matters. All of this, it's awesome, it's cool, I love it. I love that I get to make a difference, I love that I get to talk to people every day, but at the end of the day, I- I come home to him and that's what grounds me so that I can go do everything else.

Chris Williamson 5:23 Are you gonna be prepared to let go of this then when the time comes?

Brett Cooper 5:25 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 5:26 How's that gonna feel?

Brett Cooper 5:28 It's gonna be hard, but I'm also so excited about it. Like, I'm already... Like, those have been conversations that I've been having since the beginning of, like, I want this brand to grow with me. I want my show and my content-

Chris Williamson 5:39 Mm-hmm.

Brett Cooper 5:39 ... to grow with me so that when that time comes, when I'm ready to have children, when I'm taking a step back, but, you know, I want to homeschool my kids, um, when I'm dedicating that time to that, I need... I want to be able to take my audience and this community along with me.

Chris Williamson 5:53 The maternity section from the comment section.

Brett Cooper 5:54 There you go. Exactly (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 5:56 Yeah, yeah.

Brett Cooper 5:56 Um, and so I want it to be something that we're building towards, not that it's like a "Goodbye," like, "This is the end." Um-But yeah, I think it'll be hard because, you know, I'm used to this now. But again, it's- I've never wanted anything more. And I'm so excited about it.

Chris Williamson 6:12 How would you categorize

Chris Williamson 6:13 the state of dating advice for young people at the moment?

Brett Cooper 6:15 Terrible. It's awful. Uh, it's a (laughs) treacherous landscape. It is just barren. Um, one thing that I've been talking a lot about on the show, and I would actually love to hear your thoughts on this, because we've talked about dating here and there, um, I just don't think my generation knows how. Like, I was never taught how to date. My first dating experiences were on dating apps, which is wild. And so I hear about young men not wanting to approach women, and obviously there's the Me Too movement. There's a lot of concerns about rejection. Women are now saying, by and large, they want to be approached, but obviously so many women are just like, "Oh, that's creepy," whatever. It's just very confusing. There are nuances in dating and approaching women and starting relationships that you kind of have to just learn. And my generation, I don't think we've ever had to do that. I mean, again, like I went to UCLA, was 18, but I went in as a junior, and I joined a sorority 'cause I wanted to have, like, the all-American traditional experience, wanted to do something traditional for once in my life. And right after I rushed the sorority and got in, I was sitting in a room with my big, and she was like-

Chris Williamson 7:24 Your what?

Brett Cooper 7:25 My big. Do you know what that is?

Chris Williamson 7:26 No.

Brett Cooper 7:27 Okay, so in Greek (laughs) in Greek life, you have, like, bigs and littles. So-

Chris Williamson 7:31 Uh-huh.

Brett Cooper 7:31 ... I was somebody's little. So when-

Chris Williamson 7:32 Okay.

Brett Cooper 7:32 ... I joined the sorority, there was somebody who was- who had already joined a year prior.

Chris Williamson 7:36 Right.

Brett Cooper 7:36 And they, like, usher you in, are your mentor, your friend.

Chris Williamson 7:39 Cool. Okay.

Brett Cooper 7:39 Yeah, bigs and littles.

Chris Williamson 7:40 We're on-

Brett Cooper 7:40 So I was with my big.

Chris Williamson 7:41 We're on the same page. Yep.

Brett Cooper 7:42 Yes. Um, and fraternities have that as well. Anyway, I was sitting with her in her room, and they were shocked that I had never been on Tinder, that I had never dated before. They were shocked that I was a virgin. I mean, it was just like (gasps) , like, "This is insane. How could you..." And I mean, and I found out later on, I mean, these girls had had, you know, multiple abortions and were very, very sexually and, you know, relationship-wise ahead of me. And I had not thought anything of it up until this point 'cause I hadn't been around it, and I just kind of stayed in my own bubble. Um, and they're like, "Well, you gotta get on Tinder. You gotta y- you gotta do it." And there's no hazing allowed at UCLA. There's n- especially not in sororities. But they kind of made a joke, and they were like, "This is gonna be your hazing. You need to get on dating apps, and you're- this is how you're gonna date." And it was so weird. Um, the boy that I dated in college, like my high school... or not high school, my college boyfriend, met on Hinge. Like, that was how I dated. That's how everyone around me dated. And so when I hear, you know, people online, when I'm reading in the comment section, like, "I don't know how to approach somebody. I'm so nervous." Girls not knowing how to respond-

Chris Williamson 8:45 Mm-hmm.

Brett Cooper 8:45 ... it's 'cause we've completely lost that. It's not their fault. It's because they've just gone online. You're sliding into DMs. You're swiping right and left, and that's an addictive game in and of itself. And so then now we're seeing, you know, droves of people leaving dating apps, especially with everything that, like, Bumble did. Bumble had a huge loss when they did their ridiculous rebrand, most idiotic thing they've ever done. Um, people wanting to be off the apps but not knowing how to date outside of them. So it really is... It's abysmal for a lot of reasons, but especially that is what I've been thinking about recently.

Chris Williamson 9:14 Yeah, I- I had this idea of mutually assured deception-

Brett Cooper 9:18 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 9:18 ... which I think is what a lot of people have. They're so scared of opening up, because one of the worst things that you can be is gullible and naive-

Brett Cooper 9:26 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:27 ... in dating. You know, there's something kind of cool about being aloof and a bit sardonic and a bit-

Brett Cooper 9:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:31 ... standoffish. You know, "I'm too good for this."

Brett Cooper 9:33 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 9:33 "Uh, you- there's no way that you could hurt me." Yeah, you know, it's sort of easy come, easy go.

Brett Cooper 9:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:37 But I think that that is just a suboptimal solution to a suboptimal problem.

Brett Cooper 9:42 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:42 Like, that is someone trying to reverse engineer the dating environment into their preferences-

Brett Cooper 9:47 Yes.

Chris Williamson 9:47 ... as opposed to doing it the other way around.

Brett Cooper 9:49 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:49 So yeah, you have two people, neither of whom are prepared to open up fully in case they get hurt-

Brett Cooper 9:54 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:54 ... both of whom are terrified of being hurt, and both-

Brett Cooper 9:56 Yes.

Chris Williamson 9:56 ... of whom just never show themselves to the other person.

Brett Cooper 9:58 Correct.

Chris Williamson 9:58 So yeah, I think, uh, that's a big concern. And then when it comes to the approaching thing and the- the- the being in real life, it's always been that way.

Brett Cooper 10:07 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 10:07 Like, the reason that the guy that founded CBT founded CBT-

Brett Cooper 10:10 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 10:10 ... was to overcome his approach anxiety for women.

Brett Cooper 10:13 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 10:13 That was originally what it was designed for. So this has happened-

Brett Cooper 10:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:15 ... for as long as time has been around. The difference now, I think, is that any small psychological challenge becomes pathologized-

Brett Cooper 10:24 Yes.

Chris Williamson 10:24 ... and becomes laid at the feet of the modern world. So, "This is because of Tinder. This is because of online dating." It's like, what if this was just endemic to being a guy?

Brett Cooper 10:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:32 That approaching a woman is gonna be scary and always gonna be scary, and maybe the difference now is that you're just a bit less socially adept.

Brett Cooper 10:38 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 10:38 You haven't spent that much more time out and about. You don't have robust social networks. You don't really know as many people, that kind of a thing.

Brett Cooper 10:45 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:45 And what it feels like from the inside is, "Oh my God, if only it was 50 years ago, this would have been-

Brett Cooper 10:51 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 10:51 ... super easy," which actually takes a lot of agency away from you-

Brett Cooper 10:53 Yes.

Chris Williamson 10:54 ... which would have been, "It was gonna be hard then-

Brett Cooper 10:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:56 ... in 1960, and it's ha-"

Brett Cooper 10:58 It was always gonna be hard.

Chris Williamson 10:58 Precisely.

Brett Cooper 10:59 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:59 And you can overcome it.

Brett Cooper 11:00 The conditions are different.

Chris Williamson 11:01 Correct.

Brett Cooper 11:01 The conditions are different, and you have to acknowledge that. But that should not be the reason why you turn inward and just say, "Never mind, I'm giving it up because there is no hope." There were always going to be problems. There was always going to be hurdles that you had to overcome with dating. Dating is not easy.

Chris Williamson 11:15 Mm-hmm.

Brett Cooper 11:15 It's not fun. Nobody likes, you know, opening up, you know, and being very vulnerable, and being like, "Stab me in the heart if you don't like me." I mean, nobody likes that.

Chris Williamson 11:22 Mm-hmm.

Brett Cooper 11:23 But if you acknowledge that and understand that, you know, the risk could come with just an incredible reward and an incredible payoff, but you do have to take responsibility, and you do have to take those steps. I also think, for women especially, men by and large are having, you know... they're setting these insane standards.

Chris Williamson 11:37 How so?

Brett Cooper 11:37 And very, very- Very, very superficial standards. I mean, you see it on social media. There was that whole trend of like, you know, "I want a guy in finance who's 6'5", blue eyes." Did you see that? She, like, wrote this whole song about it.

Chris Williamson 11:47 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brett Cooper 11:49 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:49 Yeah.

Brett Cooper 11:49 And it's a joke, but it's not.

Chris Williamson 11:50 Mm-hmm.

Brett Cooper 11:51 Because they've- they have this image in their mind of what kind of guy they want, and I think they see a lot of relationships on social media. They see men on social media. You know, "This is going to be the guy that's available to me." When you look at those numbers of, you know, the percentage for both men and women-... of men who are whatever height they want, make, you know, six figures plus, are single, are not overweight, are between this age bracket.

Chris Williamson 12:17 It's a rounding error, yeah.

Brett Cooper 12:19 Yeah. And the same goes for women of like, you know, if you want a woman who is not on the left, is not on any kind of, um, antidepressants, who's, you know-

Chris Williamson 12:27 (laughs)

Brett Cooper 12:27 ... a certain weight. That one is insane.

Chris Williamson 12:29 I love the fact that- I love the fact that the equivalent for women of a guy being 6-foot-

Brett Cooper 12:33 Yes, is-

Chris Williamson 12:33 ... earns six figures with a six-pack-

Brett Cooper 12:34 Not mental. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 12:34 ... is not on antidepressants and not on the left. (laughs)

Brett Cooper 12:37 Yes.

Chris Williamson 12:37 Wow.

Brett Cooper 12:37 Not obese.

Chris Williamson 12:38 Yeah.

Brett Cooper 12:38 I mean, and again, tiny. And obviously, I'm not saying have no standards, the bar is, you know, on the floor.

Chris Williamson 12:45 Mm-hmm.

Brett Cooper 12:47 But you also have to meet people where they are, and you also have to know what you're bringing to the table and be aware of like what you will be able to get basically, like what is the mutually... What am I trying to say here? Trying to figure out the right way to phrase this. It's like, who is your equal partner in the dating marketplace?

Chris Williamson 13:05 Do you think that there's a case for settling in that case?

Brett Cooper 13:10 I don't think- I don't think of it as settling. I think of it as being, again, aware of what your options are and what you're bringing to the table. Like, I talk to women all the time and, you know, "I want this, I want this, I want this." What are you bringing? Like are you- are you the type of woman that these men are going to go for? Are you the high-value woman? I kinda hate those terms, but you know, the high-value woman, the high-value man. If you aren't going to the gym, if you aren't taking care of yourself, if you, you know, don't like children, if you only care about your career and you don't wanna... You know, if you hate the patriarchy, "I don't wanna support a man, I don't wanna care about a man," and you want a provider man who is, you know, fit, in shape, cares about his health, that's not gonna match up. He's not gonna go for you.

Chris Williamson 13:50 Mm-hmm.

Brett Cooper 13:51 And so then if you're not seeing what you want in the dating landscape, then I'd say like put it on yourself then. What can you do to level yourself up? If you don't like the options that are available to you, what can you do to put yourself in a situation where you're gonna meet those types of people and be on their level? Number one, that just makes you a better human being because you're bettering yourself. But then again, it's putting the agency back on themselves of like you have the opportunity to make the change and bettering the situation.

Chris Williamson 14:14 Well, that's a very radical message, I think, to give to women.

Brett Cooper 14:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 14:17 It's kind of radical to give to men because at the moment, there's a lot of sort of despondency and cynicism-

Brett Cooper 14:22 Yes.

Chris Williamson 14:22 ... and- and melancholy on both sides, but especially for women. There's a- an insight that I learned a couple of years ago that personal development for men and personal development for women are completely, uh, inverted.

Brett Cooper 14:33 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 14:33 So, men are told that the world is immutable, and you are mutable.

Brett Cooper 14:38 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 14:39 So, you have to wrap yourself up and change yourself in order to fit around the world. And women are told that the world is mutable, and you are immutable.

Brett Cooper 14:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 14:46 You are perfect as you are-

Brett Cooper 14:47 Yes.

Chris Williamson 14:47 ... and it's the world's problem that you need to change.

Brett Cooper 14:49 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 14:49 And to me, that's massively patronizing.

Brett Cooper 14:51 Yes.

Chris Williamson 14:51 But the other reason is that it doesn't actually allow... it doesn't, um, empower women to change.

Brett Cooper 14:56 Correct.

Chris Williamson 14:56 Because they think if there's any problem out there in the world, it's because of the world and not because of me.

Brett Cooper 15:01 Yes.

Chris Williamson 15:01 So if your today's then say, "The reason that you are not getting the kind of guy that you want is maybe your fault."

Brett Cooper 15:08 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:08 "Maybe there's something you could do to get yourself up to that..." No, no, no. You should love yourself as you are-

Brett Cooper 15:12 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 15:12 ... a queen. You're already a 10.

Brett Cooper 15:13 Yes.

Chris Williamson 15:13 He doesn't deserve you. Uh-

Brett Cooper 15:15 Drives me up a wall. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 15:16 Well, the pro- the- the main problem with it is that there is a small cohort of women for whom growth mindset and improving themselves has been drilled into them.

Brett Cooper 15:24 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:24 And they're just gonna run away and pick up all of the good guys-

Brett Cooper 15:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 15:27 ... because there's such a small number of them-

Brett Cooper 15:29 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:29 ... out there, uh, and the rest of them have been gaslit-

Brett Cooper 15:32 And that's one of the reasons why...

Chris Williamson 15:32 ... by the shitty culture.

Brett Cooper 15:33 And that's one of the reasons why I, you know, uh, didn't wanna put dating on hold just because of my career. And it's interesting, so my mom and I talked a lot about this. She always said, you know, "Don't date until you're 30." She was, you know-

Chris Williamson 15:45 She had you at like 38, right?

Brett Cooper 15:46 Yes. (laughs) Yes, yeah.

Chris Williamson 15:47 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Brett Cooper 15:47 Uh, 42, I think, and, um, and that was kind of a joke but not a joke. And what she meant by that was know yourself before you get married. Um, she did not mean that in, you know, you need to have the perfect career, the perfect house, the perfect job, which I think is such a lie 'cause it's much more fulfilling to build that and get to that point with your significant other. But that was kind of the running joke in our family. And then, when I graduated college, moved to Nashville, we started seeing the world change, just gender dynamics. I think she- her eyes really woke up, or not woke up. Her eyes really opened to all of that and seeing that, you know, dating was not the same as when she was dating. Um, the world's stability was just not the same. And so when I, you know, left Idaho and moved to Nashville, she was like, "You need to find your person." She was like, "Because the world is not stable."

Chris Williamson 16:37 The way that you turned, um, goddamn it.

Brett Cooper 16:37 Yeah. And she, uh... (laughs) So she was saying, you know, this has to be a priority because the good ones are gonna get picked up. They probably are being. And you know, it's great, you know, focus on your career, but the women that are out there knowing that they're gonna need a partner-

Chris Williamson 16:52 Hmm.

Brett Cooper 16:53 ... because the world is getting increasingly unstable, because we don't know what's happening, you know, in politics, in, you know, w- whether there's gonna be some apocalypse. She's very much a prepper.

Chris Williamson 17:01 Mm-hmm.

Brett Cooper 17:02 Um, and then also just in terms of values, like those are the ones that are gonna be snatched up from the get-go. And she was like, "Don't put that on hold." She was like, "I'm sorry that I told you don't date until you're 30, but that needs... your mindset needs to change about that." And I'm so glad that she did.

Chris Williamson 17:13 Where did you meet your husband?

Brett Cooper 17:15 Uh, through work.

Chris Williamson 17:16 Wow.

Brett Cooper 17:16 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:17 Who knew? Daily Wire?

Brett Cooper 17:18 Yeah. Always said I would never do it. He al- yeah. We both were like, "We'll never do this." Both of us were like, "Never date at work." And it was something, I mean, I don't know. It's like, it sounds so woo-woo, but literally he walked in, I looked at him, and I was like, "That one." I don't know why. Didn't know anything about him. Something about the way that he carried himself. He's super confident in a very open and engaging way, not a cocky way. I had always gone for very arrogant and cocky guys in the past because I felt like that is what I needed 'cause I thought that other men were gonna be, and boys at that time in college, were gonna be intimidated by me and my success-

Chris Williamson 17:56 Hmm.

Brett Cooper 17:56 ... and my intelligence-

Chris Williamson 17:57 Hmm.

Brett Cooper 17:57 ... and the fact that I, you know, graduated college at 19 years old. Like that was just... I was like, "That's what I needed." And then I met him, and it was so solid. There was no insecurities. He was so comfortable in his own skin, was not intimidated whatsoever, um, so caring, so open, just literally just the way that he carried himself. And then got to know him and realized that, um, we grew up five miles apart. He went to high school with my brothers. His photo had been in...... my brother's four yearbooks we have in my mom's office for the last 15 years and I'd had no idea when I met him or, like, laid eyes on him. Um, and so I've said this before, but falling in love with him and marrying him has felt so much like going home, 'cause it's like I have that tie to our hometown. Um, it was a, a town where a lot of pretty dysfunctional things happened in my family when my brothers passed away, and that's where we were living when that happened, and so I've kind of had a complicated relationship with Chattanooga here in Tennessee. Um, but all the pieces just kind of came together, and it was so easy. I mean, I think I knew within, like, two weeks of going out with him. I was like, "This is who I'm gonna marry. This is it."

Chris Williamson 19:05 We'll get back to talking to Brett in one minute, but first, I need to tell you about LMNT. Stop having coffee first thing in the morning. Your adenosine system that caffeine acts on isn't even active for the first 90 minutes of the day, but your adrenal system is, and salt acts on your adrenal system. Each sachet of LMNT contains a science-backed electrolyte ratio of sodium, potassium, and magnesium that will help to regulate appetite, curb cravings, and improve brain function. You might not actually be that tired. You might not need more caffeine throughout the day. You might just be dehydrated, and proper hydration is not just about having sufficient water in your body. It's about having enough electrolytes to help your body use those fluids. Best of all, there is a no BS, no questions asked refund policy, so you can buy this box, try them all, and if you don't like it, they'll give you your money back, and you don't even need to return it. That's how confident they are that you'll love it. Right now, you can get a free sample pack of all eight flavors with your first box by going to the link in the show notes below or heading to DrinkLMNT.com/ModernWisdom. That's DrinkLMNT.com/ModernWisdom. What advice would you give

Chris Williamson 20:08 to guys who want to attract and find a good woman?

Brett Cooper 20:16 Work on yourself, for sure. Be constantly improving, um, both in terms of your career, your intelligence and the way that you think about the world, your, the physical shape that you're in. That says so much to women, and I know that a lot of women kind of look at that in a superficial way, but I look at that as, like, "You are truly prepared to protect." Um, "You're willing to go to bat for me, for our future children. You care about my health more than I care about my health." That was a huge thing that I had to get over. He was like, "You are gonna go to the gym. You are gonna take these supplements." Um, a leader. Um, being able to be assertive and take initiative is huge. I also think, and this is the complicated one that I've been talking about on the show, is understanding the nuances in dating. Women are very confusing, which is, it sucks, but we are, and there's, like, very little, like, emotional things that we do. But being able to understand if a woman is actually interested and knowing how to carry on a conversation before you even ask her out-

Chris Williamson 21:17 Hmm.

Brett Cooper 21:17 ... that's key to just getting in the door, of being able to create a connection over something that's not dating and over your interest in her, whether it's, you know, physical or you just think she's an interesting person. Just seeing if that connection is even there and kind of playing that dating game, that back and forth, that sets you up for success in more ways than one. Like, that is, I, I feel like has a much higher batting average than just, you know, going up and saying, you know, "Can I have your number?" And hoping that it works out. But laying that groundwork just so that you know if she's actually interested, um, I think that also makes the fear of rejection a little easier because you actually will know, hopefully, if she's interested and what the response-

Chris Williamson 21:57 You've got, like, preselection somehow.

Brett Cooper 21:59 Yes. Exactly.

Chris Williamson 21:59 Yeah. Well, I think a lot of, a lot of the time about, um, the advantage of being around women-

Brett Cooper 22:06 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 22:06 ... and one of the problems of remote work being that-

Brett Cooper 22:08 Yes.

Chris Williamson 22:08 ... people are interacting less. So low-stakes interaction with women-

Brett Cooper 22:12 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 22:12 ... is a really great way for guys to overcome their approach anxiety.

Brett Cooper 22:14 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 22:15 Because if you're not looking for any outcome-

Brett Cooper 22:16 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 22:18 ... i- w- what can you lose there? It's the barista.

Brett Cooper 22:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 22:19 She is literally paid-

Brett Cooper 22:21 Just go talk.

Chris Williamson 22:21 ... to give you your coffee.

Brett Cooper 22:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 22:22 So if you can say one extra sentence.

Brett Cooper 22:24 Yes.

Chris Williamson 22:24 It sounds so stupid. It's the same problem as, "If you need to go to the gym, just do 10 pushups a day."

Brett Cooper 22:29 Yep.

Chris Williamson 22:30 Because it starts so small that people think, "Well, what's the fucking point?"

Brett Cooper 22:33 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 22:33 Like, "Look, I, I'm not, I'm not Andrew Tate with a Bugatti."

Brett Cooper 22:36 (laughs) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 22:36 Um, like, "What's the, what's the point in me trying to do this?" So, but that is literally the only way that you can get there.

Brett Cooper 22:42 Yes.

Chris Williamson 22:42 And you're gonna-

Brett Cooper 22:43 You have to take that step. You have to show up at a location in person where there will be women, whether it is your, you know, whether it is a group workout class.

Chris Williamson 22:51 Pickleball.

Brett Cooper 22:52 There you go. I have a problem with pickleball though.

Chris Williamson 22:54 What? Come on. Okay, here we go. First disagreement.

Brett Cooper 22:57 I know. I, I did an episode about this. I got reamed in the comments.

Chris Williamson 23:00 Yeah. Well, rightly so.

Brett Cooper 23:01 Yeah. Well, the problem that I had and that sparked this episode is I went to a farmer's market in Nashville. There was a tennis court next door-

Chris Williamson 23:11 Mm-hmm.

Brett Cooper 23:11 ... to the farmer's market. It was all men playing pickleball. I'm sorry, it was the gayest thing I've ever seen. And not, and it was, because it was all-

Chris Williamson 23:19 (laughs)

Brett Cooper 23:19 ... it was s- oh my gosh. I was like, "Play tennis!" Anyway. But I also think that was-

Chris Williamson 23:24 (laughs)

Brett Cooper 23:24 ... just the demographic in that part of Nashville, and I looked at that, and I was like, "You... Go, like, to a boxing gym." Something. Anyway.

Chris Williamson 23:30 Short denim shorts, cutoffs?

Brett Cooper 23:32 Ye- the shortest shorts imaginable.

Chris Williamson 23:33 Fantastic.

Brett Cooper 23:34 Like they, uh, well, they, like, they went to Lululemon, got the five-inch, and then had them tailor cut out.

Chris Williamson 23:37 This is, this is liberating for men. This is what we want to do.

Brett Cooper 23:40 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 23:41 This is what we want to do, yeah.

Brett Cooper 23:42 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 23:42 Like, you know that-

Brett Cooper 23:43 That's great.

Chris Williamson 23:43 You know those things like, "I wonder if he's thinking about me."

Brett Cooper 23:45 Yes. He's thinking about pickleball.

Chris Williamson 23:46 And then it cuts to what the guy's actually doing, and it's him high-fiving with his homies with his top off in three-inch shorts? This is what guys want to do. Stop fucking oppressing us.

Brett Cooper 23:53 Oh, good. Oh, I'm so sorry.

Chris Williamson 23:53 The patriarchy is coming back around through pickleball.

Brett Cooper 23:55 I'm so glad.

Chris Williamson 23:56 Thank you.

Brett Cooper 23:57 I'll shut down the matriarchy.

Chris Williamson 23:58 Good.

Brett Cooper 23:58 Well, no, and I learned my lesson from that.

Chris Williamson 24:00 Rightly so.

Brett Cooper 24:00 I still don't, I don't really enjoy pickleball.

Chris Williamson 24:02 Mm-hmm.

Brett Cooper 24:03 I played tennis growing up, and so I, that also probably feeds into my feelings about it. But still-

Chris Williamson 24:09 Hmm.

Brett Cooper 24:09 ... going to some, like, playing pickleball with people, showing up to those leagues, joining... In Nashville, at Centennial Park, they always do soccer and softball and volleyball during the summer. You can just join these rec leagues.

Chris Williamson 24:21 Mm.

Brett Cooper 24:21 Go do that.

Chris Williamson 24:22 Have you seen this, uh, ascendancy of, uh, like, 5K runs, run clubs?

Brett Cooper 24:26 Yes.

Chris Williamson 24:26 Yeah. I think that-

Brett Cooper 24:27 Cute.

Chris Williamson 24:27 I think run clubs are basically a-They're a dating organization masquerading as a fitness pursuit.

Brett Cooper 24:34 Yeah, I could see that.

Chris Williamson 24:35 That's what it is. Because no one goes to the run club-

Brett Cooper 24:37 No.

Chris Williamson 24:37 ... for the running bit.

Brett Cooper 24:38 No.

Chris Williamson 24:38 I've seen these things. People walk half of them.

Brett Cooper 24:40 Yes, they need to stop.

Chris Williamson 24:40 But everybody's got their brand new Saucony or New Balance whatevers-

Brett Cooper 24:45 Their new Hokas. That's what's in.

Chris Williamson 24:45 Yeah, exa- exactly, yeah.

Brett Cooper 24:46 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 24:46 And tiny pair of shorts, and they get to run along in sweaty and see if the other... Oh, like, "He's that guy from last week again."

Brett Cooper 24:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 24:51 So, yeah.

Brett Cooper 24:52 Again, and that's... Okay, what you just said, "That guy from last week," that is also key, repeatedly going to the same place with the same group of people and, again-

Chris Williamson 24:59 Stalking.

Brett Cooper 24:59 ... laying that groundwork.

Chris Williamson 25:00 Stalking?

Brett Cooper 25:00 Yes, exactly.

Chris Williamson 25:01 Right.

Brett Cooper 25:01 "I need you to stalk." No.

Chris Williamson 25:02 Okay.

Brett Cooper 25:03 Um, but the low-stakes environment, where you are having to-

Chris Williamson 25:09 Yep.

Brett Cooper 25:09 ... grow a relationship over, say, six weeks.

Chris Williamson 25:11 Mm-hmm.

Brett Cooper 25:12 Of, like, you're going to this run club every single week. You meet a girl. Oh, you banter, whatever. You run along, talk to somebody else. The next week, she's there. Pick up the conversation. Just being able to-

Chris Williamson 25:22 It's wild that this is revolutionary.

Brett Cooper 25:23 I know.

Chris Williamson 25:24 Yeah, I know.

Brett Cooper 25:25 Again, but that goes back to my point of... M- my generation just has not had to do that.

Chris Williamson 25:31 Yeah.

Brett Cooper 25:32 And it's all been so digital and then mixed in with our, you know, our social skills just have been totally warped by the digital age, and COVID didn't help at all. And I mean, the majority of my college experience was online. So when people talk about, "Oh, you learn to date in college-"

Chris Williamson 25:47 Hmm.

Brett Cooper 25:47 ... people who graduated around my year in '21, nope.

Chris Williamson 25:51 Learn to date online?

Brett Cooper 25:52 Yeah, in your Zoom.

Chris Williamson 25:52 While at college?

Brett Cooper 25:53 Yes.

Chris Williamson 25:54 Yeah.

Brett Cooper 25:54 In your Zoom class, like, "Oh, this guy's kinda cute. Let me do, like, my, like, private Zoom message."

Chris Williamson 25:58 Do a breakout, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brett Cooper 25:59 Yes. I was like, "Oh, yeah, the guy in my Zoom, you know, breakout in my business class when we're working on our accounting," whatever. Like, that's... Those were the options.

Chris Williamson 26:06 Super lame. There's a current big pushback against women having kids as well.

Brett Cooper 26:09 Mm-hmm, yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:09 Even me, who doesn't use TikTok-

Brett Cooper 26:12 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 26:12 ... saw that girl with the list-

Brett Cooper 26:14 Oh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:14 ... thing. She printed off 350 reasons-

Brett Cooper 26:16 Mm.

Chris Williamson 26:16 ... about why not to have a child. What is the opinion on motherhood among Gen Z at the moment?

Brett Cooper 26:24 It's interesting. Did you see that study that said that it's over half of women do believe that motherhood is just as or more important than a career? It's just from a couple of weeks ago. But they will not... These are not conservatives. These are just normal women. They don't want to brand themselves as conservatives. They wanna get married, they believe that hookup culture is bad, and they believe that motherhood is important. And so I think deep down, 'cause these are biological instincts, I do believe that women have those urges and want that. I think that it is the culture coming in very heavy-handedly-

Chris Williamson 27:00 (laughs)

Brett Cooper 27:00 ... with the most absurd reasons not to, like the list, which is just 365 examples of fearmongering.

Chris Williamson 27:06 Can't wear cute heels anymore.

Brett Cooper 27:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:07 Got to mish brunz- brunch with the girls.

Brett Cooper 27:09 Yes. And it's like some of them, I'll read and be like, "Ooh," like, "That part of giving birth does not sound fun, but the end result is worth it, and I don't care 'cause I wanna have a child." But a huge portion of them are, "Ew, your clothes don't fit properly," and, "Oh, I might not be able to go back to my current..." You, you wanna go back and sit in a cubicle when you could have this, like, beautiful, amazing child that you've created with the love of your life, and you're worried about going back and working for the man? Like, I thought you hated the patriarchy. Does not make sense. Um, but no, there is a lot of fearmongering. Um, there are more women than people think that are waking up, though. I was actually planning an episode for next week about this. There have been an influx of women just on my social media alone speaking out about cultural issues, social issues, political issues, talking about voting for Trump. Um, these are not political accounts. These are random influencers, just girls on their, you know, private, personal social medias talking about the things that Biden is doing in regards to Title IX, the transgender issue, that they have been completely woken up, realizing, "Oh, I don't actually want this anymore." Mix that in with the women that are in their 30s that get made fun of constantly on X for crying in their car about the fact that they can't meet a guy because they prioritize their career-

Chris Williamson 28:21 Mm.

Brett Cooper 28:21 ... over dating.

Chris Williamson 28:21 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Brett Cooper 28:22 And then they just get ripped to shreds by people on the right, which I think is so problematic-

Chris Williamson 28:25 Yeah, I mean, that's-

Brett Cooper 28:26 ... but it's... They are struggling.

Chris Williamson 28:27 ... this kind of self-owns, uh, you know, as you said before-

Brett Cooper 28:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:31 ... people on the right that's supposed to be pro-family saying, "But you're gonna give up your career. You just managed to find your success." This is one of the sort of real, uh, areas, I think, of failure, especially for the right. Supposed to be the ones that are rational, we position ourselves up against these, you know, s- super emotional-

Brett Cooper 28:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 28:46 ... fucking people on the left. Go, "Dude, you've just taken the piss out of a woman who is the realization that you've said that they're going to have."

Brett Cooper 28:53 Yes.

Chris Williamson 28:53 What do you want? Do you want her to create a time machine and go back in time?

Brett Cooper 28:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:56 That's evidently not going to happen.

Brett Cooper 28:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:58 And someone opens up to give the message, as opposed to going, "See, this stupid broad. She shouldn't have listened to-"

Brett Cooper 29:03 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:03 ... blah, blah, blah. You go, "Okay," y- it's a cautionary tale.

Brett Cooper 29:06 Yes.

Chris Williamson 29:07 Yes. But there's a human on the other side of that.

Brett Cooper 29:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:10 It's so dehumanizing. So m- this is why I'm so bored with most of politics and sort of culture war stuff, because everybody sees everyone as a political football of some kind that they can either kick away from them or sort of grab and bring onto their team. Perfect example of this, remember when Nicki Minaj went anti-vax-

Brett Cooper 29:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:28 ... for a couple of weeks?

Brett Cooper 29:29 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:29 And the right was like, "Nicki, come o-"

Brett Cooper 29:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:31 I'm like, "Nicki Minaj?"

Brett Cooper 29:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:32 "Are we being serious?"

Brett Cooper 29:33 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:34 But, oh, there's this brief sort of sliver-

Brett Cooper 29:35 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 29:36 ... where their talking point coincides with my-

Brett Cooper 29:40 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 29:40 ... desire to push this particular narrative.

Brett Cooper 29:42 Yeah, and you hold on, and you're like, "I'll ignore everything else."

Chris Williamson 29:45 Super lame.

Brett Cooper 29:46 And it's... You know, and I'm somebody, obviously, that reacts to culture. I talk about the news. You know, that is something that I would talk about on the show. But it's like you, you walk a fine line of acknowledging that this is interesting. You know, sure, that's cool. That's, you know, one thing that I agree with Nicki Minaj on, but you don't have to suddenly absolve her of every other value that she's ever had that I disagree with. And I think that's the real problem. Like, you can say, "Oh, that's cool. I don't agree with the rest of the things that you're doing."

Chris Williamson 30:11 Hmm.

Brett Cooper 30:11 "But that's interesting. I wonder how she got to that point. That's what's interesting to me."

Chris Williamson 30:14 Correct.

Brett Cooper 30:14 And then looking at the reaction, and obviously, I mean, it's called the comment section. That's what I do. But seeing how the internet responds to it, that's also the interesting part. I don't need to adopt her. I don't need her to suddenly come over to my side. Um, so yeah, I completely agree with that, and I think that that response to women does not help us at all. That response to women who are, you know, 31, single, desperately need help finding somebody-... the response is-

Chris Williamson 30:39 Laughing.

Brett Cooper 30:39 Yeah, the response is not, "Screw you. Oh, boo-hoo."

Chris Williamson 30:42 Yeah.

Brett Cooper 30:42 The response is, "No, there is- there will still be somebody out there for you, I believe that. If you, you know, realign your priorities, if you do put yourself out there, if you become open and you're willing to be vulnerable."

Chris Williamson 30:52 Yeah.

Brett Cooper 30:53 I do believe in that wholeheartedly. But then you use that as a, again, the cautionary tale, like you said, of like young women. "This is what could happ- this is what we warned. This is what feminism said you wouldn't care about. You won't care when you're 31 and you have no kids and you've frozen your eggs and you, you know, you're working for the man and you have some corporate career, it won't matter." Obviously, it does.

Chris Williamson 31:12 That being said, I have this idea that normalizing, uh, the gift of IVF egg, uh, embryo freezing-

Brett Cooper 31:20 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 31:20 ... or at least like egg freezing at 21 would be one of the best things that you could do.

Brett Cooper 31:24 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 31:24 I think that instead of giving a girl a fancy trip to Tulum with her and her friends, or a nice watch, or whatever-

Brett Cooper 31:30 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:30 I don't know what American families do, but like 21 tends to be like a big...

Brett Cooper 31:33 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 31:34 A- And getting your egg frozen is not cheap.

Brett Cooper 31:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:37 But imagine just that insurance policy just in case-

Brett Cooper 31:41 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:41 ... something happens. I think that would be a good way to look at stuff. But yeah, I, uh... So is it your belief that we are seeing a kind of quiet revolution of young women beginning to see the importance of motherhood and-

Brett Cooper 31:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:55 ... sort of long-term relationship? Is this a pushback against casual sex, against hookup culture? Is this-

Brett Cooper 31:59 For sure.

Chris Williamson 31:59 ... tied in with the m- conservative movement, or is this totally separate? Is it just-

Brett Cooper 32:03 I think that it's-

Chris Williamson 32:03 ... siloed off onto dating?

Brett Cooper 32:04 I think that you can smoosh them together if you want. Um, and I think that there is a lot of overlap, but I don't think that this is a lot of women suddenly being like, you know, "I'm conservative, I'm gonna vote for Trump. I'm ready to be a tradwife. Give me my, you know, frolicking sundress." That's not what it is.

Chris Williamson 32:17 Hm.

Brett Cooper 32:18 It's women being intelligent and having self-awareness and looking at the world around them and going, "This doesn't sit right." I don't know if that's gonna translate into votes. I would love it to translate into votes, 'cause I think that the world needs some literal, you know, political redirection. But I do think that it speaks volumes about our culture and the lies that women have been told. It's not just about their relationships and dating and motherhood, but women are also having a really rude awakening about our health. I mean, birth control is such a huge topic right now.

Chris Williamson 32:48 Mm-hmm.

Brett Cooper 32:49 Our health, our OBGYNs who have gaslit so many women for years at this point about their health, about our hormones. I think that there's just a, in general, women are looking around going, "Oh my gosh, what we've been told and fed for the last 20, 30 years, none of this makes sense. We need to take a step back and reevaluate." I think we're seeing this in real time. And some of it, you know, is even happening on the right, 'cause a lot of women on the right are, you know, waking up to big pharma and, you know, their health. So it's, it's happening in every single political pocket.

Chris Williamson 33:17 Mm.

Brett Cooper 33:18 But I... It's just very, very cool and I'm glad that it's happening.

Chris Williamson 33:21 There was a, a TikTok

Chris Williamson 33:22 I saw earlier on, an obese woman who diagnosed herself based on Grey's Anatomy.

Brett Cooper 33:26 I watched that earlier, yeah.

Chris Williamson 33:27 Got angry with a doctor that she thought was safe-

Brett Cooper 33:30 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 33:30 ... because the doctor suggested that the woman lose weight. The woman asked her to not talk about BMI because of its history as a, "Tool of eugenics, racism-"

Brett Cooper 33:38 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 33:38 "... and colonialism, and I'm Indigenous."

Brett Cooper 33:40 Yes. It's pretty great. Did you hear, um... That was actually in my episode today that I filmed before coming here.

Chris Williamson 33:46 God dammit.

Brett Cooper 33:47 And I lo- I... Well, it's great.

Chris Williamson 33:48 Fucking slipstreaming me-

Brett Cooper 33:49 I know.

Chris Williamson 33:49 ... on the same story.

Brett Cooper 33:50 But the thing... Okay, the thing that is... (laughs) I looped it in with the Fat Beach Day that happened in New York-

Chris Williamson 33:56 What's that?

Brett Cooper 33:56 ... uh, the weekend. So obviously, body positivity movement, they need to be accepted. We have not accepted them enough. We have not bent a knee enough. They needed to have their own beach day together so that they could encourage more acceptance. So that happened in New York on Saturday.

Chris Williamson 34:11 Okay.

Brett Cooper 34:11 So it was literally just a bunch of fat people, they went to the beach. And I said this on the show, where I said, "If this was like an interest group, if this was people that were coming together with a common-"

Chris Williamson 34:20 Pickleball.

Brett Cooper 34:20 "... shared exper- " There you go.

Chris Williamson 34:22 Star Wars.

Brett Cooper 34:22 (laughs) Um, if they were coming together because these are people that are trying to lose weight and they need... They are, you know, they have one health problem, they need comradery, they want support-

Chris Williamson 34:32 Mm-hmm.

Brett Cooper 34:32 ... that would be one thing. That's great. I believe that it's wonderful to find people that you, you know, share things with, things that you're going through. That community is important. Just in general, I think our society has lost community.

Chris Williamson 34:43 Hm.

Brett Cooper 34:44 But that's not what this is. This is a bunch of... There was like fat New York City models who went, literally taking their tops off, posing on the beach.

Chris Williamson 34:53 Ah.

Brett Cooper 34:53 I was like, "No, this is not about you wanting support and being healthier. This is literally you fueling your own narcissism and a desire for attention." And I think that they are flailing right now, 'cause I've seen a ton of new body positivity movement, uh, TikToks popping up over the past couple of weeks, because they're losing their hold. With Ozempic, with people waking up just about their health in general-

Chris Williamson 35:13 Mm-hmm.

Brett Cooper 35:13 ... people are losing weight rapidly. There was a really interesting interview from the CEO, um, and head buyers of a lot of different, uh, women's clothing companies and retail stores, and they were saying, "We've never seen, in the last 15 years, we have not seen so many smalls, extra smalls sold." And they're begging for smaller sizes. Like, they're now going down to like triple zero, which has not happened in the last 15 years. And just back in COVID, they were saying, "We need, you know, size 16, 18, 24."

Chris Williamson 35:37 Hm.

Brett Cooper 35:38 I think the average size of an American woman, clothing size, was an 18, 16 last year. And now to see that shift-

Chris Williamson 35:45 Not gonna be for long.

Brett Cooper 35:46 Apparently not.

Chris Williamson 35:46 But, I mean, talking about intersectionality, the environmental movement should be happy about people losing weight. Think about how much less material is being used-

Brett Cooper 35:53 There you go.

Chris Williamson 35:53 ... how much less stitching, the freight amount-

Brett Cooper 35:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 35:55 ... the, the weight that you need to use to transport that across the world.

Brett Cooper 35:58 Yeah. If only the social justice movement could get on the same page and have some consistency, they might actually do some (laughs) -

Chris Williamson 36:05 No, no.

Brett Cooper 36:05 ... they might do some good.

Chris Williamson 36:06 So I had Johann Hari on the show-

Brett Cooper 36:07 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 36:07 ... and he's written this new book, Magic Pill, about Ozempic.

Brett Cooper 36:10 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 36:10 And the most interesting stuff that I found are all the economic impacts downstream.

Brett Cooper 36:15 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 36:15 So, uh, airline companies predicting lower fuel costs because of a lighter populace. All of the confectionary companies, Ben & Jerry's-

Brett Cooper 36:23 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 36:23 ... are trying to dial in, uh, their margins because they know that the sales volume is going to go-

Brett Cooper 36:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:27 ... through the floor. Uh, hip and knee replacement companies, way fewer of those because people are less-

Brett Cooper 36:33 So interesting.

Chris Williamson 36:33 ... and this was, this was the wildest one. Jewelers using less gold for fat fingers.

Brett Cooper 36:38 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 36:38 So the amount of people that have had to pay to go into jewelers to get-

Brett Cooper 36:41 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:41 ... their rings adjusted because their fingers have grown. But I, I really think you're onto something here with the sort of Ozempic meets body positivity challenge. So-... for a long time, being obese or being overweight was seen as an identity.

Brett Cooper 36:54 Yes.

Chris Williamson 36:55 And I think that if people can't lose weight, even though they try, if they can't get what they want, they need to teach us- themselves-

Brett Cooper 37:01 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:01 ... to want what they can get.

Brett Cooper 37:03 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:03 Which is being a little bit bigger-

Brett Cooper 37:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:05 ... and saying, "Well, actually, there's no bearing that weight has on health."

Brett Cooper 37:07 Yes.

Chris Williamson 37:07 Et cetera, et cetera. The problem now is if you've got-

Brett Cooper 37:10 And they- and they put it on you and say, "Actually, you're the problem."

Chris Williamson 37:12 Correct. Yeah, we need to change the size of the-

Brett Cooper 37:14 And it's not that they can't lose the weight, whatever, yes.

Chris Williamson 37:15 ... s- plane seats or whatever. Problem being, if you can basically bestow on anybody that's got the right medical insurance-

Brett Cooper 37:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 37:21 ... or 200 bucks a month, if you can bestow on them weight loss to whatever level that they want, you just increase the Ozempic dose-

Brett Cooper 37:28 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 37:28 ... and you can dial in your weight to whatever it is that you want, it makes being obese much more of an obvious lifestyle choice.

Brett Cooper 37:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:35 And it really lowers the status, I think, of being overweight.

Brett Cooper 37:39 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:40 When it becomes convenient and easy to be thin-

Brett Cooper 37:43 To lose weight.

Chris Williamson 37:43 ... yeah, it- it becomes-

Brett Cooper 37:44 And deep down, that is what people want. I don't- I don't- I truly don't believe that people want to be obese. I don't believe that people want to be unhealthy. I mean, why- why? Again, it's like travel is so complicated. All the other, you know, health problems that come with it, the knee replacements, you know, the difficulty just existing in society, which again, I think a lot of people dunk on folks that are overweight and just make fun of them, but I'm like, they are struggling. Like life that way is not great. It isn't designed for them. I don't think that society needs to bend a knee and change airline seat sizes and make, you know, all the bathrooms bigger. There was that one video where the woman was like, "I need, um, hotel hallways to be bigger for me." I'm like, "Nope. Okay, that-"

Chris Williamson 38:21 How fucking wide was she?

Brett Cooper 38:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 38:23 Jesus.

Brett Cooper 38:23 Huge.

Chris Williamson 38:23 Wow.

Brett Cooper 38:25 It's like that doesn't need to change, but I still do believe that, you know, obviously they are human beings, they're deserving of empathy. Um, but deep down, they don't want that. And again, they, like you said, they only adopted this because it was like, "I can't have this, so I'm gonna become really, really passionate and really enraged and make it a you problem because I'm not gonna take responsibility." But again, now that there is this opportunity and this innovation that they can easily grasp onto, obviously they're gonna trickle over here.

Chris Williamson 38:50 Well, we saw what happened to Adele when Adele lost weight.

Brett Cooper 38:52 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 38:52 And she was completely castigated, thrown out of the big, big girls club, whatever it was.

Brett Cooper 38:58 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 38:58 Uh, as if it was some sort of a middle finger, as if-

Brett Cooper 39:01 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:01 ... as if her being bigger was like a- a show of fealty, like a flying a particular flag for some group.

Brett Cooper 39:08 Mm-hmm. I think some feminists want other women to be ugly and miserable.

Chris Williamson 39:11 There's an amazing Bill Burritt where he says, uh, "Chicks, if you could only support the WNBA the same way that you support a fat chick that's gained weight and is no longer a threat to you-"

Brett Cooper 39:23 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:24 "... they'd be doing more numbers than the NBA."

Brett Cooper 39:25 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:25 And it's so true. I have this, you've- you've nailed it, that I think the body positivity movement is highly motivated for women-

Brett Cooper 39:33 Yes.

Chris Williamson 39:33 ... to encourage their friends to eat themselves out of their competition in the dating market.

Brett Cooper 39:37 Yep.

Chris Williamson 39:38 So you have intrasexual competition, competition between women-

Brett Cooper 39:40 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 39:40 ... and a lot of, quite rightly, girls go, "That's fucking disgi- of course I don't think that."

Brett Cooper 39:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:44 And it's like, no, you don't consciously think that.

Brett Cooper 39:46 No, it's subconscious.

Chris Williamson 39:47 Precisely.

Brett Cooper 39:48 Women are terrible to each other. That's kind of just a, I think, a common-

Chris Williamson 39:51 Well, most slut shaming comes from women.

Brett Cooper 39:53 Yes. Well, this is-

Chris Williamson 39:53 Most of the beauty standards come from women.

Brett Cooper 39:55 Yes. And it's so irritating when women turn the beauty standards on men and they'll say, "Oh, the patriarchy made me do this. You know, I have all of these body image issues because of what men have told me." What man has told you that he wants you to, you know, get plastic surgery on your eyelids? That's a new big plastic surgery thing that's popping up in America where if you have like hooded eye, um, eyelids, you get them like sliced and cut and resewn. You know, you have these crazy caterpillar eyelashes on your eyes, you're getting filler everywhere, you're doing all of this. It's not for men.

Chris Williamson 40:24 You are aware that guys have no idea what you're talking about?

Brett Cooper 40:26 Yes.

Chris Williamson 40:26 They don't know the difference between an LV bag and one that's from Target.

Brett Cooper 40:29 And that's the point. And that's the point. They don't care and they don't know. They're doing it for women. Women are encouraging it. They're seeing it on social media. And it's like that's... you cannot blame that on men. You cannot blame the, you know, insane things, you know, how much money you're spending on your nails and your eyelashes and your fake tans on men.

Chris Williamson 40:46 Mm-hmm.

Brett Cooper 40:46 That's other women encouraging you to do that.

Chris Williamson 40:49 I saw you throw my alumni organization, Love Island, under the bus recently.

Brett Cooper 40:55 (laughs) I did.

Chris Williamson 40:55 I can't believe that you would do that.

Brett Cooper 40:57 I'm so sorry. What was your experience? How were- were the women all fillered up when you were on your season?

Chris Williamson 41:01 Uh, it was... so I went on nine years ago-

Brett Cooper 41:03 Okay.

Chris Williamson 41:03 ... so it was less bad back then.

Brett Cooper 41:05 Yep.

Chris Williamson 41:05 But there has been a couple of sort of transformation... they did an all stars thing.

Brett Cooper 41:09 Okay.

Chris Williamson 41:09 So they brought people that had been on previous seasons back on, and there was a few... and you basically got to compare then until now. And I thought, you know, some of the girls that were on my season had had a bit of work done.

Brett Cooper 41:19 Yep.

Chris Williamson 41:19 And you compare to now and they look like Bratz dolls.

Brett Cooper 41:21 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:21 And, you know, these stories have gone super... and I- I feel for these chicks that have been like... I don't know, it's kind of like being gaslit by fucking culture-

Brett Cooper 41:30 Yes. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:30 ... into believing that this is the thing that they need to do. I don't know. Um...

Brett Cooper 41:33 Preventative Botox is now the thing in the States. I don't know if it is in the UK.

Chris Williamson 41:36 What's that? What is that?

Brett Cooper 41:37 Where women my age and younger, starting at like 20 years old are getting Botox to keep themselves from getting wrinkles in the future.

Chris Williamson 41:43 Does it work?

Brett Cooper 41:43 Preventative Bo- No. It's absurd.

Chris Williamson 41:45 Oh. Right.

Brett Cooper 41:45 And any good esthetician and dermatologist is gonna say you literally do not need that, but they're making money off of it. And so there's a whole, like, social media campaign for it. You know, "Start getting your preventative Botox here, just a couple of injections here and there. Make sure you don't get, you know, crow's feet." At like my age it's like, no, those aren't wrinkles, those are like your dimples. Those are just your normal, like, lines over your eyebrows, but it's all...

Chris Williamson 42:07 So for the girls that are listening, guys don't notice. Like we don't know.

Brett Cooper 42:10 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 42:10 You're not doing it for us.

Brett Cooper 42:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:11 We don't know. We

Chris Williamson 42:12 don't know what's going on. So one of the other trends that I've noticed is kind of generalized cynicism.

Brett Cooper 42:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 42:17 And you spend a lot of time in the comment section.

Brett Cooper 42:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:19 A lot of people in your audience are Gen Z. Why are Gen Z so despondent? Why is there such generalized cynicism? Is that true? Is that just what we see rise to the surface? What- what's the kind of cultural temperature at the moment for Gen Z?

Brett Cooper 42:31 I think that there is a lot of cynicism. I think that it can be kind of politically divided. I think Gen Z on the left is a lot more cynical. Um, but I think that also just goes back to people on the left, especially young people on the left, um, it's fueled by this, you know, desire for victimhood. There's no good in the world. I shouldn't have children because, you know, the world is gonna go up in flames and there's gonna be no Earth anymore and I don't wanna populate the Earth. I don't wanna bring a child into the world. I mean, it's... it is very, very cynical.... on the right, especially people that are, you know, more driven by their faith, there's a- a lot of hope and a lot of encouragement. I also don't think that they really bog themselves down with that kind of cynicism. But for just making a generalized statement, every generation has gone through hard things, and so I think that it is not honest and kind of irresponsible to say, "Oh, well, Gen Z has, like, has really had it tough because of COVID. You know, they were born, you know, post-9/11 and the world changed and-"

Chris Williamson 43:31 Mm.

Brett Cooper 43:32 "... um, you know, and then Trump came in and there was so much..." I'm just like, there's- we weren't alive during polio and, you know, we don't have any actual wars that we are physically- like, our men are not being drafted right now. Maybe they will be, I don't know, if they're trying to get women drafted. Um, but right now things are okay. Like, we are better off than we have ever been in the history of the world. We are richer, we are healthier, we are happier, by and large. And so I don't think it's correct to say that Gen Z has been through more. I think we've been through different things. The digital age, we are the first generation that was raised fully online. We are more exposed to seeing things around the world. No generation before us has had this much of an unbridled access to the problems consuming other countries and other societies. So maybe it's a little bit of like, you know, we don't have that innocence as bliss.

Chris Williamson 44:19 Mm-hmm.

Brett Cooper 44:20 Um, COVID obviously was very, very difficult for my generation, and I think that sent them on a spiral because obviously- or already we were, you know, our socialization was not up to snuff compared to older generations, just because of the digital age. COVID only made that worse. So again, I don't think that we are worse off. We are just dealing with something different that no other generation has had to encounter before. And I-

Chris Williamson 44:44 It's int-

Brett Cooper 44:44 ... think that they wear that kind of as a chip on their shoulder as well. "You don't get it. You don't get it."

Chris Williamson 44:48 Hmm.

Brett Cooper 44:48 And it's like, well, no, we- we understand. We can point to the reasons why, but still, take a step back and see that the world is better than it has ever been before. You have more opportunities than you've ever had. Obviously, there are problems. There will always be problems. That's life. Like, as a human being, you are always gonna have hurdles. It's kind of the name of the game. And I think that Gen Z is putting themsel- has put themselves in this situation where it's like any of those hurdles, it's like, "Aah, I'm out. It's triggering. I now have depression, anxiety. I need to be, you know, medicated. There's no point in living anymore." It's like they are- they've just thrown in the towel.

Chris Williamson 45:23 It's easy, I think, for people who aren't from that generation to look at it and say, "Well, look, this is just online. These are terminally online people. There's nothing to worry about. Uh, you know, this isn't a problem, it's just a problem on the internet."

Brett Cooper 45:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:35 But I looked at some stats recently that said the average amount of time that an American spends asleep is six hours and 15 minutes-

Brett Cooper 45:41 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 45:41 ... and their total screen time per day is eight hours, so they're on screens for more than they are asleep.

Brett Cooper 45:46 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:47 The virtual world is more real than the real world.

Brett Cooper 45:49 I- correct.

Chris Williamson 45:49 So that is t- for you to say this is just online, it's like you have got the bar stool upside down.

Brett Cooper 45:54 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:55 It- online-

Brett Cooper 45:55 It's all online.

Chris Williamson 45:56 ... is life.

Brett Cooper 45:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:57 That is life for these people.

Brett Cooper 45:59 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:59 So yeah, I think being sort of disparaging of it is just not gonna get- get people anywhere. And if you don't want to sound like a boomer that's completely out of touch, that is not the solution, saying, "Ah, it's just online, go-"

Brett Cooper 46:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:11 You're right. You don't- you evidently don't get what's going on.

Brett Cooper 46:13 That's why you have to meet them where they are and meet them online. And that's why I think, you know, I've had people ask me before, you know, "You were raised with no TV," which I was. I didn't have a TV in my house until I had one at one point in my college years, but never used it. Didn't have cable, didn't have Netflix. I got one when I moved in with my husband 'cause he watches sports. I was like, "Okay, now I have a TV." But I was very offline, didn't have a phone for many, many years, just had a flip phone when I was in high school. Like, I was very, very detached from- I was very involved with my social media usage as a young person. And people will say, "Well, Brett, that was your experience. You advocate for that. You advocate for people to get offline, touch grass-"

Chris Williamson 46:50 Mm.

Brett Cooper 46:50 "... is when I say to have that balance, to go be involved in the real world, and yet you're online, and you're in the comment section." It's like, well, yeah, that's where you have to meet them.

Chris Williamson 46:57 Mm-hmm.

Brett Cooper 46:58 And the best thing that I can do, in my opinion, is talk about things that are, you know, terminally online and talk about these online issues, but give them a framework so that they can dissect them intelligently and have self-awareness, 'cause I think the worst thing is that if you're spending that amount of time online, which everybody is... Also, for my generation, our work is online, our school is online, dating is online. If you wanna be involved, you do kind of have to be online as a young adult. The worst thing to do is just to be in that online world, on social media, and not be thinking about it and not be conscious about what you're consuming. So if I can give them a framework of, "So this is alluding to this, this social media trend that sounds really dumb, that's on TikTok, it's a ridiculous thing, this is indicative of X, Y, and Z that's happening in our culture that is probably fed from this." If I can give them-

Chris Williamson 47:42 Mm.

Brett Cooper 47:42 ... kind of like a, "Ah, I see where that's coming from-"

Chris Williamson 47:44 Mm-hmm.

Brett Cooper 47:44 "... so they're not just blindly consuming it."

Chris Williamson 47:46 How persuasive do you find that to be?

Brett Cooper 47:48 Very.

Chris Williamson 47:50 'Cause-

Brett Cooper 47:50 I think it's changed a lot of minds.

Chris Williamson 47:52 I think one of the problems people have is that it's pointless, me even engaging with a discussion-

Brett Cooper 47:56 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 47:56 ... with these people because I feel like they're a lost hope. I feel like-

Brett Cooper 47:59 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:59 ... there's-

Brett Cooper 48:00 I don't believe that.

Chris Williamson 48:00 You know, there's a lot of people that I think would look at Gen Z and just say, "Fucking chalk it up as a loss, swing and a miss."

Brett Cooper 48:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:06 "Let's go down to Gen Alpha, maybe we can do better with them."

Brett Cooper 48:08 Mm-hmm. I don't think so. I- I mean, Gen Z men are becoming more right wing than ever, are waking up about a lot of things. I'm seeing this with young women. That's not, you know, they're not becoming more right wing, but I do think that they're waking up to a lot of the lies, again, the lies that they've been told, the lies of our culture, of feminism. Um, I also think Gen Z, you can just see the way that they're already critiquing millennials and wanting to be different. So-

Chris Williamson 48:32 Mm-hmm.

Brett Cooper 48:32 ... Gen Alpha, I don't know if you've seen, like, the Sephora tweens. Okay, so millennials are very into gentle parenting.

Chris Williamson 48:40 Mm-hmm.

Brett Cooper 48:41 And gentle parenting, as it should be described in the actual definition I don't have a problem with, of, you know, being engaged with your children's emotional life, leveling with them, not just, you know, pointing a finger, disciplining with no explanation, kindness, you know, again, meeting them at their level. Um, but it has become something that is more of a-... guess a doormat situation, where it enables the lazy-

Chris Williamson 49:05 Mm-hmm. Pliable parents to do whatever.

Brett Cooper 49:06 Yes. Um, it enables laziness. "Oh, I'm a gentle parent." No, you're not. You just-

Chris Williamson 49:10 Pliable parenting.

Brett Cooper 49:10 Yes. Uh, their children walk all over them. And then they're the iPad kids, Gen Alpha is the iPad kids. And so Gen Z is now in the workforce. They are preschool teachers. They're kindergarten teachers. They are working at Sephora, and they see Gen Alpha come in and have no respect for anyone that's older than them. They're walking around buying Drunk Elephant retinol products to put on their 12-year-old skin because they've just seen it on social media, and they're... Nobody in their life, no adult in their life is saying, "Hey, you're 12 years old. Retinol is for when you're 35. Don't buy that." Um, destroying testers. It's all of these videos of tweens.

Chris Williamson 49:42 Mm-hmm.

Brett Cooper 49:42 Tween girls, you know, stealing makeup, d- destroying the test displays. Uh, Gen Z-

Chris Williamson 49:47 Why is Sephora fucking ground zero for this?

Brett Cooper 49:50 Because they watch beauty influencers.

Chris Williamson 49:52 And they all shop at Sephora?

Brett Cooper 49:53 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 49:53 Fantastic.

Brett Cooper 49:54 And so now there's all of these, like, 12, 13-year-old, like, little beauty influencers. They're like, "Hi, come see my Sephora haul. Do my, do my makeup for school." I was like, oh my gosh, when I was 12 years old, I was making, like, Little Mix music videos in my pool, like, my drained pool in the wintertime, and never posted them. God forbid that ever made its way onto the internet, because it was for our enjoyment, not for clicks and not for social media. But these young people, because they've been raised online, that is their fun, is, like, becoming an influencer and posting themselves online.

Chris Williamson 50:22 Interesting.

Brett Cooper 50:22 So they watch these beauty influencers. They go to Sephora. They buy this makeup. But Gen Z is interacting with them on a daily basis, and they are saying, "We don't want to raise kids like that. We don't want to be the Millennials."

Chris Williamson 50:31 In other news, this episode is brought to you by Nomatic. Last year, I went on a tour across the UK, USA, and Dubai, and I didn't check a single bag because hold luggage is a psyop meant to keep you poor and late. In fact, I never need to check bags anymore at all thanks to Nomatic. This is the best backpack in history. Everybody that I've got to try it has had their life revolutionized by it, and they make the most functional, durable, and innovative backpacks and luggage that I've ever used. Their 20-liter travel pack, which is this sucker right here, is an absolute game changer. The amount of thought that they've put into every pouch and zipper is incredible. They're beautifully designed and not over-engineered and will literally last you a lifetime with their lifetime guarantee. So this is the final backpack that you'll ever need to buy. Best of all, you can return or exchange any product within 30 days. So if you buy your new bag, try it and don't like it, they will just give you your money back. Right now, you can get a 20% discount by going to the link in the show notes below or heading to nomatic.com/modernwisdom and using the code MW20 at checkout. That's nomatic.com/modernwisdom and MW20 at checkout. What's the next one? Gen Beta? That's gonna suck.

Brett Cooper 51:38 Probably, yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:39 If you, if you're the... W- what generation were you? I was the-

Brett Cooper 51:42 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:42 ... Beta generation. God, how much does that suck?

Brett Cooper 51:43 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 51:44 I found this. Uh, since

Chris Williamson 51:45 2009, more than twice as many 15 to 19-year-old girls and young women have been admitted to the ER for self-harm behaviors in the US. Even more shocking, five times more 10 to 14-year-old girls were admitted to the ER for self-harm in 2022 than in 2009. That's five times more families taking their fourth to ninth grade daughters to the hospital because they have intentionally harmed themselves.

Brett Cooper 52:05 It's awful.

Chris Williamson 52:06 Where's this coming from?

Brett Cooper 52:09 A lot of it social media. Um, I said something recently on a show because I covered a woman who got a lot of flak on TikTok for talking about her strict rules with her children, where she does not allow them to take their phones into their bedrooms. They have time limits on their social media apps. Most ridiculous thing was they have to tell her where they're going to go before they go so that she knows where they are. And parents are like, "Oh my gosh, you're a stalker." It's like, no, you wanna know where your 15-year-old daughter is going to be. Anyway, so I talked about her, and I basically said, in terms of social media, point me to one study that says that social media is good for young adults, for young women specifically. There is not one. There's not one that even says it is fine. It is all detrimental. Um, and so I think that plays a huge part in it, again, because of what they're seeing and the peer pressure online and the standards that they're setting for themselves that they now want to try to adopt because they, they see this influencer doing this. They see this person, you know, in Bali on a beach with their hot boyfriend, and they don't have that, and they'll never be that. They see, you know, these now 13-year-old little girl influencers who are going to press events and getting PR packages. Like, it's starting so, so young, and women are very susceptible to that. Purity as a woman is one of the worst things you will ever go through. You feel s- You feel like the most ugly duckling on planet Earth. I was so ugly. It was terrible 'cause I sprouted, I would say, earlier, but I still had a baby face, and I had a bowl cut, and I was like 5'6". Um, already was, you know, super tall.

Chris Williamson 53:40 Hey, you guys.

Brett Cooper 53:42 Yes. I was j- It was so weird, and it was so awkward. No boys liked me, and you feel so insecure. And then that being heightened by social media, by COVID and having to live online, I think it's just a perfect storm. Um, it also doesn't help that social media has almost encouraged having a mental illness-

Chris Williamson 54:05 Mm-hmm.

Brett Cooper 54:05 ... in a lot of ways, and Jordan talked-

Chris Williamson 54:06 It's glorified that pathology.

Brett Cooper 54:07 Yes, and Jordan has talked a lot about, you know, social contagion. I think that is absolutely real. It is the cool thing to be depressed. It is a badge of honor to have anxiety and be dealing with it. And the more that they engage with that and tell themselves that they are, obviously you're going to become that. Um, again, it's just a, a perfect storm.

Chris Williamson 54:26 You worked in Hollywood as a child actor.

Brett Cooper 54:28 Yes.

Chris Williamson 54:29 What did you make about the recent news on Nickelodeon-

Brett Cooper 54:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 54:32 ... and quiet on set and all of that?

Brett Cooper 54:36 None of it surprises me at all. I feel very, very lucky because I had a great experience. But I had a fantastic experience because I had a mother that was literally a shark, who was so... I, I just cannot say enough good things about her. Who was so engaged in every part of my upbringing and my career, not as a momager, but as a mother. Someone who knew that this industry had the reputation that it did. She already knew about the casting couch. She knew about, uh, child actors and the drug usage and the scandals. She was not interested in me doing any of that. Um, but I loved it. Like, I lived...... for performing. That's all I wanted to do. Um, and so she saw that in me and wanted to be able to support that. And I've seen a lot of comments, actually, of people saying, you know, "If your mom knew these things about the industry, why did she let you move to LA to audition? Why did she take you to New York so that you could go audition for Broadway shows?" Um, I just want to take that o- this opportunity to answer it. My brother died when I was five years old. He was 17. He was an artist, super, super creative, and up until that point, my mom had kind of tried not to put my brothers in a, a box, but she was like, you know, it, it was a more of a one-size-fits-all parenting approach. Um, my brother who died is a twin, and so she kind of put the twins together and she was dealing with her failing marriage with my father, and that kind of took priority over the kids. And after he died, she made a conscious decision with me that she was gonna completely change that. She was like, "I'm not going to prioritize this marriage that is, you know... There is no future," really. She had already kind of decided, both of them had decided that. "I'm gonna put this child first." And then, one thing that she said is, you know, "If I knew that David was gonna die at 17 years old, and he had all of these ambitions and things that he wanted to accomplish, what would I have done to make sure that he got those opportunities, that he got to enjoy every aspect of that?" And so that's why we did it, because she saw that I loved it. I came alive when I was on stage. Um, a lot of things in my family I think really shut me down. Losing my brother at a young age, my parents' relationship obviously took a major turn for the worse after he died. My brothers really kind of went off the deep end in a lot of ways as well. I became very closed off, suppressed. I would literally, like, hide in kitchen cabinets when people would come over 'cause I didn't wanna speak. That all went away when I got on stage and was performing. And so she wanted to keep that up as much as possible 'cause that was my one outlet. So anyway, that's kind of the backstory of how I ended up there and why she was willing to put me in those situations, and also why she was so willing to protect me. Um, so then back to the point, I knew all of that growing up. I knew that it was happening. I had experiences, nothing like what was discussed on, um... Why am I blanking here?

Chris Williamson 57:29 Quiet on Set.

Brett Cooper 57:29 Quiet on Set. I was about to say After Dark. Quiet on Set. Um, you know, Jennette McCurdy wrote her fantastic book, uh, I'm Glad My Mom Died, about her very abusive mother, momager, and her experience with Dan Schneider. Who she didn't name in her book, but she just called him "the creator", obviously for legal reasons. Um, so when I read her book, I remember getting to the end of her book, literally just like crying 'cause I was like, "Oh my God."

Chris Williamson 57:50 Did you ever interact with Dan Schneider?

Brett Cooper 57:53 No.

Chris Williamson 57:53 Right.

Brett Cooper 57:53 I auditioned for some of his projects. I don't know if I was ever in the room with him. I mean, it was literally he was so prolific in Hollywood still at the time when I was coming up that at least once a week there would be... I could probably go back in my old email now and, you know, Untitled Dan Schneider Project, Untitled Dan Schneider Project. My mom already knew about that reputation. It was so commonplace that he was a creep that I think I might have auditioned for a couple of them, but she drew a line in the sand and said, "That guy's a weirdo, she's not going out for any of those projects."

Chris Williamson 58:20 Wow.

Brett Cooper 58:20 "She's not gonna go work at Nickelodeon." I desperately wanted to be on the modern iteration of Boy Meets World, which is called Girl Meets World, um, which obviously catapulted Rowan Blanchard and Sabrina Carpenter to fame, and desperately wanted it. And so I like fought with my mom. I was like, "Please let me go out for this, please let me go out for this." She did not want me on Disney Channel, did not want me on Nickelodeon, because she knew that those children's networks were so filled with creeps. And I ended up doing one children's show at a different network, and that is where my bad experience was. And it's so predictable because it's the men who choose to work with children, with young girls.

Chris Williamson 58:57 What happened?

Brett Cooper 58:59 Um, it was after the show had ended, and I actually, I told this story with Jordan and I got a call from my mom. She was like, "You missed an important component of the story," so I can actually share that here. Um, it was the writer on the show, and he had wanted to connect with me and another girl who were on the show, and you know, he was always writing new things and "I'm gonna create another show," in Hollywood it's very normal, you know, "Oh, let's go have coffee or lunch with this, you know, person who could get you this next job." It's always like, "What's gonna get me the next job?" So they had reached out, he had reached out to this girl who was a co-star on the show with me, who was a very, very good friend of mine at the time. And her mom reached out to mine, I think he had mentioned something about, "Oh, I'd love to see Brett as well," so her mom reached out to mine and said, "Hey, you know, Brett's friend is going to go meet up with this guy. Would Brett like to go and connect with him and, you know, it'd be great, he wants to see her?" And so we ended up going to the Griffith Observatory, and this woman told my mom, you know, "I'm gonna be with them the entire time, I'm gonna watch them, don't worry, I'll be the parent in the room." My mom said, "Okay, great." Last time she ever trusted anybody in that regard. And so my mom dropped me off, I went up there. Her mother was nowhere in sight. Watched from the car basically. Walked around the Griffith Observatory, this man immediately launches into his lesbian fantasies that he has with me and this other girl, at 14 years old. Again, the creator and writer of a children's show. And I get immediately very, very weirded out. Um, you know, we're walking, there's this part in the Griffith Observatory where you can go and you see what your weight would be if you're out, you know, on the moon or in space. And so we went and like stood on this and he looked at my friend and said, "Oh, I want to know how much you weigh with your clothes off." It's like stuff like that. And so then we finally got out of the museum, he's told us about our lesbian fantasies, whatever. We're walking back towards the restaurant and he sticks his hand in our back pockets like as he's walking, like this. And I immediately am just like, "Abso- get off of me." My friend shoots me a look like, "Don't screw this up for me, like don't say anything." So I don't, so we just keep walking, get back to the car, whatever. I immediately, you know, dropped off at my house, I talked to my mom, "This is so weird, I never want to be around this man again. This was so uncomfortable, so creepy." My mom calls her mom, her mom admits that she knew.That's why she wanted me there, because I would be a buffer. She said, "Oh, you know, we know that he's weird. We've gotten very weird vibes. I didn't want her to be alone with him, so we wanted Brett to be there." So she knew. But she was so desperate to have her daughter, and her daughter was so desperate, I don't know if it was coming from her or coming from her mother, to be in this room and not rock the boat because she desperately wanted a new show, a new audition, a new job, that she was willing to take it and be in that space and then put another child in that situation and that that, that was normal. And this guy would show up too. He was very enmeshed in my friend group for a long time because he just worked with all these young people. Would show up to teenage birthday parties where maybe, like, you know, an acting teacher or somebody would drop by and drop a present. "Hey, happy birthday, you know, whoever your name is. Have a great party," whatever. This guy would come, stay until 2:00 AM with 16 and 17-year-olds who are obviously, like, getting drunk and getting high, whatever teenage actors are doing. Painted portraits of child actors, was a whole thing on his social media. I was just very, very weird. Um, and that was, that, it's nothing compared to what so many have been through, but even in my limited experience, even with a mother that was so, so careful that I still had that. And I think that, um, I was in an interesting position because I, I loved acting and I loved my career and I loved working, but my mom had done a very good job kind of saying that, you know, "This is not your whole identity. This isn't your whole life. You never have to do anything that you're not comfortable with. Like, acting is fun. It should always be fun. It should be a hobby. You should never cross any lines that you're not willing to cross for that." And I don't think that was instilled in my peers. So, like, my friend who was, you know, shot me that death stare, "Don't you, like, don't say anything about him touching my butt." And th- this man groping a 14-year-old, 15-year-old, I think she was a year older than me, um, I didn't have that. I didn't care. I was like, "Who cares if he doesn't like me?" Um, and again, my mom knew all of this going into it. She put me in self-defense, um, against sexual assault, women's health defense against sexual assault. Starting at age 11 or 12, I was fighting literally in, like, rape scenarios, date rape situations. Would do that twice a week, was in private lessons, did that for probably seven years and I think that was a huge part of it. Martial arts are just, I think, so important for both men and women, but especially young girls. I think it's so underrated because the confidence that I had because of that, because I knew how to defend myself, because one of the first things that you learn is how to say no and how to use your voice.

Chris Williamson 1:04:03 Mm.

Brett Cooper 1:04:03 And understanding that where you're being touched, that's not right. Um, I had that and she didn't. And I don't... And that's why I was, you know, put in those classes because my mom was like, "You're going into rooms with people that I don't know. You know, you're being brought in by a casting director to go into a room for 15 minutes and do a scene. I have no idea what they're doing to you in there. You need to know, again, what is appropriate and what's not."

Chris Williamson 1:04:24 Isn't it interesting, this sort of line that is kind of similar to helicopter parenting-

Brett Cooper 1:04:29 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:04:29 ... but done in a empowered, safe-

Brett Cooper 1:04:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:32 ... way that's aiming to try and give you as much independence and security-

Brett Cooper 1:04:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:35 ... as possible? You could-

Brett Cooper 1:04:36 It was the, it was the foundation that was more of a, not a helicopter, but, like, "I'm gonna be very, very careful so that then you can go out-

Chris Williamson 1:04:42 Mm-hmm.

Brett Cooper 1:04:43 ... and do whatever you want, and I know."

Chris Williamson 1:04:44 But it's, uh, you know, similar to the flirting and how to detect whether or not someone likes you-

Brett Cooper 1:04:48 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:04:49 ... it's the subtle differences.

Brett Cooper 1:04:50 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:51 It's the, the deftness, right?

Brett Cooper 1:04:52 Yes.

Chris Williamson 1:04:52 It's the nuance that, that's really, really important in how you do this. The wildest thing about that story is the complicity of both the girl and the mother-

Brett Cooper 1:05:00 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:05:00 ... in-

Brett Cooper 1:05:00 They did not care. When they were called on it, "Yeah. Oh, sorry. Yeah, he's, he's really weird."

Chris Williamson 1:05:05 So it's just kind of the, the price of doing business.

Brett Cooper 1:05:07 Yeah. And there's a lot of that in Hollywood that I think that's one of the reasons why I made, you know, a conscious decision when I was in college that I was like, "I just don't think, I don't think this is for me." Because there is, there's a big price. You, they ask for your everything. They ask for you to be complicit in whatever they wanna do. They ask for you to give up your life and your stability and your control over your personal life. I mean, you know, at the drop of a hat, you know, "You need to fly to Vancouver and shoot this," and, you know, whatever. They don't care about your personal life, which is fine. It's an industry. They need to, you know, film things when they need to film things and where they need to film things. But I was not a person that was willing to give all of that up.

Chris Williamson 1:05:49 But-

Brett Cooper 1:05:49 I was also not willing to sacrifice my values. This kind of goes back to the politics stuff. I would get scripts constantly. I'd look at the characters that I'm playing. I would read the, the script in its