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The Life-Changing Skill of Emotional Regulation - Dr Marc Brackett

Go see Chris live in America - https://chriswilliamson.live Dr. Marc Brackett is a professor at Yale University, the founding director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, and author. Why is it so hard to actually feel our emotions? In a world that tells us to “be more vulnerable,” many of us don’t even know what that really means. Are we being unregulated when we express emotion, or are we finally being human? How can we reconnect with what we feel so we can actually understand ourselves better? Expect to learn why only 1 in 5 adults can name more than three emotions they feel regularly, what emotional intelligence actually is, why we were taught such few emotional skills, how we can tell the difference between real regulation and repressed emotion, if it is possible to be too self-aware, how you can learn to reframe uncomfortable emotions—like anxiety or envy—into signals instead of shame and much more… - 0:00 How Can We Recognise What We’re Feeling? 5:02 What Does it Mean to Regulate Emotion? 10:21 Why Were We Never Taught How to Regulate Our Emotions? 18:56 Why Does Emotional Suppression Come So Naturally? 24:40 Are People Truly Anxious? 34:14 How to Build Emotional Regulation 47:54 The Real Advantage of Becoming Emotionally Intelligent 01:01:32 The Difference Between Feeling Emotions and Processing Them 01:05:13 Why Being ‘Too Sensitive’ Is a Myth 01:19:15 Is It Possible to Be Too Self-Aware? 01:24:02 The First Step Toward Mastering Emotional Regulation 01:26:58 Where to Find Marc - Check out Dr Marc Brackett's book here: https://marcbrackett.com/dealing-with-feeling/ Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Chris WilliamsonhostDr. Marc Brackettguest
Nov 1, 20251h 27mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 5:02

    How Can We Recognise What We’re Feeling?

    1. CW

      Only one in five adults can name more than three emotions they feel regularly. Why do you think that is?

    2. MB

      I think, bluntly, I think it's because we don't have an emotion education. We just ignore that aspect of our lives.

    3. CW

      What does that mean? What does an, an emotion education mean?

    4. MB

      It means that from preschool to high school, and even when we're in the workplace or in college, we are building our emotion skills. You know, vocabulary, for example. Just to give you one example, I'm gonna ask you right now, what's the difference between, uh, anger and disappointment?

    5. CW

      Ooh. Anger is fiery.

    6. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. CW

      And feels like you're on the front foot.

    8. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. CW

      Disappointment, uh, for me, is the color of, and it's the color of red for me, orangey-red. Uh, disappointment is sort of a blue-gray, like a p- dark purple/blue-gray. And it is, it's sort of closed, and it feels like I'm on the back foot. It feels like I'm sat in a very low couch. Um, I'm aware-

    10. MB

      Well-

    11. CW

      ... that's not a particularly precise (laughs) definition.

    12. MB

      (laughs) No, good.

    13. CW

      But it's, it's-

    14. MB

      You're, you're, you're, you're a creative type. That's for sure. Um, and all beautiful kind of metaphors and, and-

    15. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    16. MB

      But like, I really wanna know like the psychological definition or difference between the two. So what are you thinking?

    17. CW

      I'll hand, I'll hand that, I'll... (laughs) Okay.

    18. MB

      (laughs)

    19. CW

      A psychological difference or definition between the two. Uh, functionally, anger is somebody has stepped over a boundary and you need to exclaim loudly enough to ensure that they know that they have crossed some sort of threshold. Uh, it's, uh, uh, kind of like being your own law enforcement in a way. Uh, disappointment, uh, is around hopes, expectations, and those not being met. Maybe that's better.

    20. MB

      You got it. Th- that was much better. That was great.

    21. CW

      (laughs)

    22. MB

      So, disappointment.

    23. CW

      Okay.

    24. MB

      You know, you're, uh, you're on your verge of being an emotion scientist.

    25. CW

      Yes.

    26. MB

      Um.

    27. CW

      (laughs)

    28. MB

      So disappointment, unmet expectations, anger, perceived injustice. And so I think a lot of people kind of look at my work and they're like, "You know, whatever, who cares that you know the difference between anger and disappointment or anxiety and stress or pressure and fear?" But what we say in our research is that you have to name it to tame it. You gotta label it to regulate it. And oftentimes, you know, men in particular are gonna come into our offices, you know, our homes, and, you know, act one way. They're gonna behave one way, kind of a socially appropriate way of, you know, typically aggression, with all emotions, whether it's disappointment, frustration, fear, or anxiety. And the argument that we make is that until people really know how they feel and why they feel the way they do, it's impossible to support them in managing it.

    29. CW

      Right. Yeah, that does make sense. Okay, so what is emotional intelligence? Like, is that a thing? I remember there was this whole world of IQ, EQ. What does emotional intelligence mean?

    30. MB

      So at its simplest level, emotional intelligence is using your feelings wisely to achieve your goals. Using all of our emotions wisely. But that's not specific enough. And the model that I've worked on is called RULER. So there are five skills. The first is recognizing emotions in oneself and others, understanding the causes and the consequences of emotions, labeling emotions precisely, knowing how and when to express emotions with different people across cultures, and then finally, the big R, which is my new book, which is Regulating Emotions. What do you do with those feelings, both your own and other people's?

  2. 5:02 – 10:21

    What Does it Mean to Regulate Emotion?

    1. CW

      why should people tap into emotions at all? How, how are they a performance enhancer in that way?

    2. MB

      Well, I'm gonna be provocative and say based on my research and, you know, the work I've done recently, I think that emotion regulation should actually be the new definition of success. Um, and meaning that we think of success as you got the fancy car, you got the big house, you have the big career, whatever it might be. But truthfully, if you can't manage your emotions and settle your nervous system, if you can't manage or support other people as a leader, for example, in regulating their emotions, oftentimes, the company doesn't do as well as you might think it could do. And oftentimes, your own mental health suffers and your goal attainment suffers. So I think that's a... A lot of people are fighting me on that one. You know, they think, "Well, you know, you know, well, look at my..." I've done talks for big Fortune 100 companies, and you know, like, "Look, look at me, Mark. Look at my office. You think I really need emotional intelligence?" And the first thing I say to them (laughs) is like, "Well, I interviewed the five people who report to you, and, and they don't like you. They actually hate you. So, you know, maybe..." (laughs)

    3. CW

      (laughs)

    4. MB

      (laughs) You know, so, you know, maybe you should develop some emotional intelligence skills, and maybe the company could be even, could be doing even better than it is.

    5. CW

      Mm. Yeah. I, uh...What, what is... You said, uh, the, like, the definition of high performance is emotional regulation.

    6. MB

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      Not emotional intelligence. So let's-

    8. MB

      Yeah.

    9. CW

      ... define terms. What's emotional regulation?

    10. MB

      So, in the hierarchy of emotional intelligence, emotion regulation comes at the top, right? It's like e- all these skills come together and then it, like, helps you kind of t- deal with your feelings and the way I define it is, I have a little formula that kind of makes me feel smart. Um, it's ER, uh, emotion regulation is a set of goals and strategies. So think about that. You can prevent an unwanted emotion. Most people don't think about regulation that way. They think of, "Oh, I'm stressed out. I gotta reduce my stress," but no. If you're a kid in this classroom and you know you're gonna be anxious on Thursday at the test, let's prepare now for the test, so you're not anxious on Thursday.

    11. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    12. MB

      If you're, you know, a sports person and you're going out on the track or out, you know, to do a match... My other background is I taught martial arts for 25 years. And so, uh, you know, I'm thinking about all my martial arts students getting so, you know, anxious and as soon as the, you know, the opponent came on the mat and I would say to them, like, "That's not the time to regulate." (laughs) You gotta regulate way before you even show up to the match. You gotta be preparing yourself to be present, to not be, you know, flustered. So there's a prevention piece to it. There's a reduction piece to it. In the moment, you gotta reduce the feeling, like if you get triggered, you get activated, you gotta, "Marc, take a deep breath, calm down." I think another interesting piece of regulation is initiating emotions so as someone who manages a, a large team, um, I'm always thinking to myself, like, "What emotion is gonna best serve the goal of this meeting?" Like, "Do I want people to be inspired? Do I want them to be calm? Do I want them to be kind of, like, serious?" And then it's my job to create the emotional climate that aligns with that to achieve the outcome. I don't think people think about that very much. The M in PRIME, this is an acronym, is maintain. So it's like, "I'm having a good day, I'm in flow, I'm writing my book." And all of a sudden, like, I get that email or I get that phone call and it's like, "No," like, "stay away." Like, "I'm, I'm doing, I'm really in a great place right now."

    13. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    14. MB

      And then the E is kind of enhancing emotions. So it's a long definition, but it's a complicated concept.

    15. CW

      (laughs)

    16. MB

      So PRIME is the goals, prevent, reduce, initiate, maintain, or enhance. Then the S is strategies. Thousands of strategies, right? I mean, walking in nature, taking a deep breath, shifting your thinking or reappraising, getting social support and so emotion regulation is G plus S. But then there's another piece of it, which is that all of that varies as a function of the emotion you're feeling. 'Cause you need different strategies for different emotions. Kind of your personality. I'm an introvert. I don't know about you. You seem a little bit more outgoing than I am. (laughs) I'm just making that guess. But, um, you know, at the end of the day, like I had a re- I had like a 12-hour day yesterday and, um, it was like 9:00 PM, I went to a yoga class to relax but the yoga teacher was so chatty that I had to leave the class. I mean, I hate... It's embarrassing to say. I had to walk out of the yoga class 'cause my brain needed... I wa- I was looking forward to that hot yoga class where I could just, like, disappear and instead I had someone, like, talking at me for (laughs) like 45 minutes. I was like, "This is not good for me." So ba- you know, that's my personality. I know what I need and that's gonna help me choose so instead I went for a walk around Central Park. Much better. Um, so it's the emotion, the person, and the context. You know, right now, if I'm getting anxious, for example, during our conversation, I can't be like, "You know, hey Chris, you know what? I'm going for a run." Like, yeah, that's a little weird. So anyway, I'll leave it there.

    17. CW

      Mm. Yeah, it's a-

    18. MB

      A lot to think about.

    19. CW

      It's, it is a complex topic. That's

  3. 10:21 – 18:56

    Why Were We Never Taught How to Regulate Our Emotions?

    1. CW

      true. Why do you think, why do you think so few of us were t- ever taught emotional skills if they are as fundamental as you say? Even if they are as fundamental functionally as you say, you know?

    2. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. CW

      Uh, uh, you, uh, meritocratic, egalitarian, I'm gonna go and get the thing in life. Ooh.

    4. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    5. CW

      Why, why are people not learning these if, if they're so powerful?

    6. MB

      Yeah. It's interesting. I think, uh, it's historical. I think that people kind of thought and, uh, especially in psychology, you know, emotions, they're, you know, it's not behavior, so it's not objective. It's, like, in your head and you can't really study it which we've proven is not true but, um, that's one big piece of it. I think the other piece of it is that we tend to accrete feeling emotions with being emotional, like hysterical. And so we almost treat emotions as bad things to have because, you know, they drive you to make bad decisions and they're... Make you impulsive and ideo- and idiosyncratic impulses. Um, of course, it wasn't until, like, the '70s and '80s in research, people like Charles Darwin and other psychologists would say, "No, no, no, no, no, actually your emotions ensure your survival." Think about that. Like, fear is an adaptive experience. It's saying, "There's a threat, you know, stay away. Protect yourself." But, um, it's interesting how it's taken so long for people to kind of value emotional intelligence.

    7. CW

      Mm. Yeah. Well, I suppose. It doesn't have great branding, I don't think, like emotions, emotional intelligence.

    8. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. CW

      I don't think, I don't think when you, when you talk to people about it, they're thinking about the importance of being able to step into their body, work out what they're feeling.

    10. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. CW

      Uh, (clears throat) I think what most people, especially men in the modern world would think about-... peak emotional capacity would be something much closer to suppression that, that, or, or, or-

    12. MB

      Yeah.

    13. CW

      ... um, ignorance, maybe.

    14. MB

      Well, it's true. When I interview, and I do, I do a lot of talks for businesses, and, uh, I was doing one for a bunch of lawyers recently, and I said, "All right. Define emotion regulation. What is it?" And the first thing they say is like, "Controlling your emotions," you know, and then they... "Denying it," you know, "Ignoring it, suppressing it." I'm like, "No, no, no. Go back to your groups. (laughs) Redefine it." But that's, that is the mindset. The mindset is not to feel, which, by the way, is biologically impossible. Uh, which, by the way, the more you suppress, the more it's gonna show up in stomach problems, in physical health problems, in mental health problems.

    15. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    16. MB

      Suppression is never the answer.

    17. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    18. MB

      You know, we're gonna... Remember, it's about using our emotions wisely, and I... Uh, your point is a good one because, you know, with men in particular, it's like, can I really tell my wife, my partner, my colleague that I'm anxious?

    19. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    20. MB

      You know, there's no way I'm about to tell anybody that I'm anxious because they're gonna think I'm weak. As a matter of fact, a father... Um, you know, I had a pretty rough childhood. I had abuse, unfortunately, a lot of bullying, and I'm, you know, I'm 56 at this point. You know, this is who I am. Like, I'm, I'm good with who I am, and I'm feeling pretty safe and comfortable, you know, sharing my own story. But it took me a while, and (laughs) these guys that, you know... Oftentimes at my talks, one guy said to me, you know, "Marc, there's no way I would ever be as vulnerable as you are, like, in front of other people. Like, you're sharing about your bullying, your abuse, and you're like, you have anxiety about the pandemic." And I'm like, "Well, did you feel those? You know, did you, did you have any anxiety during the pandemic?" He's like, "Yeah, of course I did." And I said, "Well, what'd you do about it?" He's like, "You know, I didn't talk about it. I drank alcohol, you know?" (laughs) And, um, I said, "Well, maybe there's a better way." Um, and I really wanted... I'm, I'm very interested actually in the gender piece of this because there is this like... We have... Men in particular have feelings about their feelings.

    21. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    22. MB

      It's like they feel s- they feel shame that they're anxious. I don't know. What do you think about that?

    23. CW

      Oh, I, I, I could talk about this for the rest of my life. I think...

    24. MB

      (laughs)

    25. CW

      (laughs) Uh, what I've called second order emotions, what you've probably got a much more official name for, uh, feeling bitterness at my resentment about my shame about my anxiety, this like infinite regress of thinking about thinking and my story that I tell myself about the story that I told myself about the thing that I felt, um-

    26. MB

      Yeah.

    27. CW

      ... appears to happen a lot in the world of men, and I think that guys-

    28. MB

      Yeah.

    29. CW

      I, I, I think guys struggle to find a place where there are emotions that aren't a very small number. Maybe resentment is allowed. Maybe anger is allowed. Um, sadness would... You would struggle with anxiety. You would struggle with, uh, grief. You would struggle with fear. Would be a real big difficult one as well, um, because all of those kind of strike at the heart of the emotional mastery, competence, conquer-

    30. MB

      Yeah.

  4. 18:56 – 24:40

    Why Does Emotional Suppression Come So Naturally?

    1. MB

    2. CW

      Mm. Yeah. So I think when it comes to the suppression thing, why, why is emotional suppression still seen as a strength? What is it, what, what is it that's left?

    3. MB

      Well, I don't think it is.

    4. CW

      Right.

    5. MB

      I wouldn't say it's, I wouldn't say it's seen as a strength. I would say it's easier, and so it's, you know, people choose that as an option. It's like in my research, what I find, the top strategies that people are kind of used to not deal with their feelings, you know, avoidance, big one. It's like, "I'm just not gonna have a difficult conversation. I'm just not gonna go home tonight and talk to my significant other. I'm not gonna tell my kids." I mean, parents are even afraid to talk to their own kids about feelings. It's crazy.

    6. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    7. MB

      Um, because they're afraid they can't deal with what they're gonna hear from their own kids. Um, so, uh, you know, the point is that I'd rather kind of not engage with the emotion, um, because the pain of what, what... Uh, what, oh, I'm sorry. What I was getting at is avoidance, a denial, uh, overeating, uh, drinking too much alcohol, uh, like you said, suppression, you know, all these become what I would call our automatic go-to terrible habits for dealing with our feelings. None of them lead to good outcomes for us. They usually lead to more shame, more regret, more self-hatred, the list goes on, and they never help us with our well-being or having good relationships or achieving the real goals we have in our lives. But the, the l- the new strategies, the helpful strategies, kind of what I write about, that even the, even doing a mindfulness exercise, which people sometimes roll their eyes at, we know that our sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems, right, need support. We need to deactivate that nervous system in order to be present, in order to have access to cognitive strategies to deal with our feelings. But-

    8. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    9. MB

      ... "Oh, that's, that's, you know, I'm not gonna... That's fluff." Breathing, you know, been breathing, you know, since you came out of the womb, so it's probably a good thing. Um, the cognitive strategies. I mean, think about how much gaslighting there is in our world right now. I mean, be, let's be real. People are endlessly gaslit in terms of, you know, "You're not, you're too fat, you're too skinny, you're too tall, you're too short, you're not big enough, you're not small enough, you're too masculine, you're too feminine, you're too dark, you're too light." I mean, it's endless. And, you know, how many of us are taught when we're kids how to like, sift through that kind of judgment and say, "Hey, wait a minute, you know, you don't have the right to define my reality. Like, I actually like myself. And, like, stay away," you know? How do we, how many of us are learn, learned how to sift through what people are saying about us to then have a more positive view of ourselves as opposed to allowing other people to define our realities for us?

    10. CW

      Mm. What happens if you don't express an emotion? You mentioned it earlier on. Let's say, uh, I hesitate to point the finger too much at repression as if it's something that people chose to do. Uh, in some ways, they-

    11. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    12. CW

      ... th- th- they did, but it's not in the same way as you chose to push that person into open traffic. It's more like, "I'm scared," and-

    13. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    14. CW

      ... "Wow, this is a lot. And what about the world outside? And what about the story I tell myself?" And, "Ugh, that's uncomfortable to deal with." Coping mechanisms and, you know, i- it's a lot of stuff that's going on that doesn't feel-

    15. MB

      Yeah.

    16. CW

      ... quite like commission or volition. It's just a desperate desire to try and survive.

    17. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    18. CW

      Um, but if somebody continues to do that, what happens if you don't express emotions?

    19. MB

      Well, it'd be, it's like a debt that keeps on getting bigger, and it comes out somewhere. It comes out, as I said earlier, in those maladaptive strategies. It comes out in terms of avoiding your significant others. It comes out in drinking too much alcohol. It comes out in having, you know, gastrointestinal issues (laughs) . It comes out with anxiety disorders and depressive disorders. I mean, the list goes on because we're born to feel, and, you know, we have to get those feelings expressed somehow or another. And if we don't do it, they're gonna find their way out. And unfortunately, for most people, because they haven't had the emotion education, it's easier, you know, we learn... Like, I don't know about you, but my parents were not like, the role models for emotional intelligence. You know, so, (laughs) you know, my father was a tough guy from the Bronx and he would say things like, "Son, you gotta toughen up."

    20. CW

      Mm.

    21. MB

      I'm like, "Dad, look at me. You know, I'm about as far from a tough guy as you can get." (laughs) I have a fifth degree black belt, but I'm not a tough guy. Um, and, you know, he would say things like, "I used to beat kids up like you." "Okay, great," you know. Uh, "They taught you that in parenting class, right, Dad?" Uh, and my mom, on the other hand, was with a lot of anxiety, and she would say things like, "And I can't take it anymore. I'm gonna have a nervous breakdown." So here I am, this like, five-year-old kid, ten-year-old kid in this, growing up in this environment. Like, what am I learning? I'm learning like, anxiety is weak, people lock themselves in their bedrooms when they're anxious, and you just sort of like lose yourself in your anxiety, and I learn, get angry at everything. And, (laughs) and that's pretty much what I was until, you know, I got my PhD in psychology. Um, I was, you know, this anxious, angry person who just, just like didn't know what the hell to do with his feelings.

    22. CW

      Mm.

    23. MB

      Um, so anyway.

    24. CW

      Let's say that somebody is-... somebody resonates with that. Oh, anxious, angry person who doesn't really know what to do with his feelings, like Army of One-

    25. MB

      Mm-hmm. (laughs)

    26. CW

      ... listening, listening, listening here with the AirPods in, uh,

  5. 24:40 – 34:14

    Are People Truly Anxious?

    1. CW

      what is a good framework for them to follow to begin including-

    2. MB

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      ... integrating those emotions more healthily?

    4. MB

      Great question. So this is, you know, what happened is I wrote this book many years ago, it's called Permission to Feel, and it was my argument that we have to give ourselves and everyone permission to feel. And, uh, I'm proud that it's been 30 languages now. And, you know, a lot of people understand that. Like, we have the first step, is we gotta, like, give ourselves that permission. It's like, it's okay to be anxious, it's okay to be angry. There's nothing bad about it. Anger is real. Anxiety is real. Like, don't judge it, just allow it to be. If you're feeling it for too long and it's too intense, you gotta do something about it. And then the pandemic hit and I got trapped in my house, um, with my mother-in-law. So she came to visit from the country of Panama for two weeks around March 1st of 2020. And, uh, let- little did we know that there would be a pandemic two weeks later, that she would stay with us for seven months. And I'm, like, losing it. You know, for me, the morning is like my kind of precious time. I like to have my really good cup of coffee, I like to, like, have my existential crisis, like, think about my purpose in life. And I like to do that alone, um, not with, you know, my mother-in-law, like, staring at me. So it got really rough. Anyway, we had this kind of meltdown in the house, and she looked at me and she's like, "Are you really the director of the Center for Emotional Intelligence?" And I was like, "Not tonight, I'm telling you that." (laughs) And so it just, like, the whole thing blew up. And I share that with you because here I was, like, supposedly, like, one of the world's experts in emotional intelligence and emotion regulation, and I'm like, you know, rock bottom, like, desperate, dysregulated. But then I, you know, when I went to bed that night, I thought to myself, "You know, Mark, you actually are the director of the Center for Emotional Intelligence. Like, this is your whole career. You've written 200 papers and books and all this stuff. Like, you gotta show up. You gotta, you gotta practice what you preach." And that's, in that moment, I decided to write a book on emotion regulation. It was like, I was walking down the stairs, I'm like, "Nobody knows anything about this stuff. If I don't know it, like, then nobody knows it." And so this new book that I wrote called Dealing with Feeling is really the map, and I just, I wanted it to be super practical. Like step one is you gotta shift your belief systems. There's no such thing as a bad emotion, period. There is no such thing as a b- Emotions are like the tide, they come and go. Sometimes they're unpleasant, sometimes they're pleasant. The second is you gotta build the vocabulary. You gotta know the words.

    5. CW

      Mm.

    6. MB

      Like, I'm gonna push, I'm gonna push you again. So anger and disappointment, we spent some time on that one a little earlier. Let's go to the one that everybody says they're feeling, which is anxiety.

    7. CW

      Mm.

    8. MB

      Everybody's anxious these days. Which I don't believe, by the way. Um, I think people say they're anxious, but they're not actually anxious.

    9. CW

      Okay.

    10. MB

      So anxiety versus stress versus pressure. You're taking my little test of emotional intelligence.

    11. CW

      Oh, you want me to define the difference-

    12. MB

      Yeah, I do.

    13. CW

      ... between anxiety, stress and pressure?

    14. MB

      Yeah, I do. (laughs)

    15. CW

      Okay. Anxiety, uncertainty about the future.

    16. MB

      You're good.

    17. CW

      Um, stress, a concern between our inner level of capability and the outer, uh, demands that the society is placing on or that the world is placing on us. An uncertainty-

    18. MB

      Okay.

    19. CW

      ... an uncertainty that we can deal. I also get the sense that complexity is in there.

    20. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    21. CW

      Stress has to do with lots of complexity that's going on. Velocity, complexity, um-

    22. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    23. CW

      ... anxiety, stress. What was the other one?

    24. MB

      Pressure.

    25. CW

      Pressure. Ooh. Hmm. Obligation. Feels like-

    26. MB

      Huh.

    27. CW

      ... ob- feels like a sense of obligation as well.

    28. MB

      You're pretty good. I think... Are you using, like, ChatGPT or something?

    29. CW

      No. (laughs)

    30. MB

      Um...

  6. 34:14 – 47:54

    How to Build Emotional Regulation

    1. CW

      I have a question on this. Again, uh, my recency bias is, like, fucking weapons-grade at the moment, right?

    2. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. CW

      Because I've just come back from this, this big-

    4. MB

      Yeah.

    5. CW

      ... uh, retreat, which was exclusively about emotions. Couple of things to tell you.

    6. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. CW

      Uh, when it comes to, uh, discerning between different emotions, what is this thing that is inside of me?

    8. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. CW

      I really struggled. I, I realized that I really struggled to distinguish between something like frustration or agitation-

    10. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. CW

      ... and anger.

    12. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    13. CW

      Um, and that I was confusing a lot of the time. I was angry, but I was feeling it as frustration or agitation, and I wasn't allowing-

    14. MB

      Sure.

    15. CW

      ... myself 'cause I didn't think that anger was, was safe to move through. So I completely agree with it is important for us to be able to, like a nice sommelier, uh, detect the different notes that are constituting whatever the emotions are that are inside of us because-

    16. MB

      Exactly.

    17. CW

      ... you, you don't know how to deal with it if you don't do that. Uh, you also end up sort of calling yourself, you, you self-label this thing as, "Oh, there's my anxiety again." And you go, "Well, maybe it's not." Maybe you're pattern matching four different things as anxiety-

    18. MB

      Yeah.

    19. CW

      ... when it's not. Um, one of the other things that happened throughout the week though was a lot of work about actually getting into the body and allowing yourself to feel these emotions.

    20. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    21. CW

      And one of the problems that I realized, I've, I've been kind of obsessed with emotions over the last 18 months. I really wanted to be, uh, less emotionally decapitated as I was referring to it, like-

    22. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    23. CW

      ... emotions existed above the neck. Um, and getting down and being like, "Okay, what does this mean? How does this feel? Can I let it move through me? Can I have more emotional fluidity in that sense?"

    24. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    25. CW

      Like, "Can it come and it goes? Can it come and it goes?"

    26. MB

      Sure.

    27. CW

      Um, how do you think about the limitations of trying to teach people this stuff through concepts and words that result in the, um, like, over-thinker, just having more to think about? Do you understand what I mean?

    28. MB

      Yeah. I do.

    29. CW

      Like, it, it's this, this sort of tactic, at least for me, until I, uh, spent more time getting below the neck, results in just more aphorisms or mantras or, you know, i- i- how do you think about combining embodiment with, with cognition?

    30. MB

      Well, our emotions are a product of that. Um, so they're, they're... You need both. You need to be aware of what's happening in your body in terms of whether it's heat in your body, whether it's the arousal or activation in your body. The problem with that alone is that it's very misleading. So for example, um, for years I would, like, say that I'm a workaholic, and I'd be like 11:00 at night, and I'd be like, you know, "I'm, I'm anxious," and my partner would say, "You know, why are you anxious? You're just tired. Shut the freaking computer and go to bed."

  7. 47:54 – 1:01:32

    The Real Advantage of Becoming Emotionally Intelligent

    1. CW

    2. MB

      That's what happens. (laughs)

    3. CW

      I wonder, you know, did w- m- me and a lot of the, the guys last week were talking about, um, whether there is going to be some sort of pattern shift from the boomer generation to sort of whatever millennial, Gen Z parenting-

    4. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    5. CW

      ... with the ascendancy of, um, uh, podcasts and courses and embodiment work and emotional awareness and stuff like that, um, you know, breaking some of those, uh, well-trodden generational cycles of sort of how specifically men, uh, show up for their kids and, and the sort of community around them and stuff like that. Uh, I would like to think that maybe if you were to do this again in another 15, 20 years that maybe you'll start to see some pockets grow up of, "Yeah, Dad was... He did feel more comfortable-"

    6. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. CW

      "... about showing up in a nonjudgmental way." Um, the, the, uh, fragile male ego had been alchemized somewhat.

    8. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. CW

      But, uh-

    10. MB

      Yeah.

    11. CW

      ... maybe not. Maybe, maybe we're j- maybe this is just fresh packaging on the same, like, patterns, the same non-showing up patterns. I don't know.

    12. MB

      I mean, I'm working on it. You know, I have, I do a lot of work in companies where they, my, a big part of my career is doing this work in school systems, and so I have a program called RULER that's in 5,000 schools across the United States. And I think I'm raising a bunch of, and I call them Uncle Marvins, 'cause Uncle Marvin was my hero in my life.

    13. CW

      Hmm.

    14. MB

      And, uh, he was the person who gave me the permission to feel, and so, uh, I like that, you know, what do we do to create a world filled with people who have these characteristics? That's kind of my vision and hope. But that's, you know, that's a piece of it, and so we've gone from mindsets to language to kind of deactivating our nervous system to having the self-talk that's productive instead of destructive to having these, I call them emotional allies, um, meaning our, the people that we can share and talk to, talk, you know, you know, our emotions with. Um, and then there is the piece that a lot of athletes are really knowledgeable about. It's the sleep habits, it's the nutrition, it's the physical activity. We know those three things directly correlate with our ability to regulate emotions effectively, and I think a lot of people misunderstand that. They think, "Oh, it's about my health." No, no, no. If you don't get good quality sleep, you're gonna lose it in the morning with your kid.

    15. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    16. MB

      You're just not gonna have replenished and, you know, emotion regulation takes effort and so if you don't have the, the time to rejuvenate, you're gonna have a much shorter fuse. And the final thing that I really help people do, uh, in my book is I want them to imagine that they have an identity as someone who is well-regulated, and I stole this from a personal trainer.

    17. CW

      Okay.

    18. MB

      Um, and, uh, stealing it is not the right way, but I got the idea from him. So during the pandemic, I decided I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna get fit again and I met this guy named Marco and, uh, online fitness expert, and, uh, and I, you know, I was never, I was a martial artist, I was very athletic, but not a weightlifter. I decided that I'm gonna become a dude, I'm gonna lift weights. And so this process of going from, you know, "I'm a 50-year-old psychologist. Why am I doing deadlifts?" You know? (laughs)

    19. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    20. MB

      Like, those really, like, I had so much negative self-talk. I was like, "This is ridiculous." Like, "Why am I doing this?" Like, um, I've been married for 27 years. Like, "Who cares what my body looks like?" And it was like, that was the first phase of getting rid of the negative self-talk, right? Then the second phase was, "Wow, I'm actually enjoying this. I, I, I see a difference. This is cool. I've, like, got some definition." But by about two years into it, I could not not work out. Like, I, even today, like, at this point it's been, like, five years now and I have a little app and I work, uh, like, I have to do my four workouts a week, and I'm, like, irritable and, like, antsy if I don't get that work in-

    21. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    22. MB

      ... workout in, and I think it's because I now identify as someone who lifts weights. It's part of my identity.

    23. CW

      Yeah.

    24. MB

      My vision is that we can apply that in our society to emotion regulation, that if we had people walking around saying, like, you know, "I ident- I'm, I'm, this is, like, I'm a master at managing emotions."

    25. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    26. MB

      Like, think about if you were triggered by someone, you'd just be like the Yoda of emotional intelligence 'cause (snaps fingers) 　 "You can't, you can't harm me."

    27. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    28. MB

      Oh my God. So that's my vision. I don't know, what do you think about that? (laughs)

    29. CW

      I c- I certainly think that when you begin to identify as something, it's a powerful route to, uh, reinforcing all of the habits that-

    30. MB

      Mm-hmm.

  8. 1:01:32 – 1:05:13

    The Difference Between Feeling Emotions and Processing Them

    1. CW

      I- I'm interested if there is a distinction between feeling emotions and dealing with them and what the line looks like between those two things.

    2. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. CW

      I imagine it must be difficult to, uh, regulate or deal with emotions without feeling them. Uh, but you presumably can feel them without dealing with them, and I don't know how much feeling you need to do in order to be able to do... Like, how do you start to delineate the territory there?

    4. MB

      Well, this is an interesting conversation around, like, the language of emotion. So there's feelings, there's emotions, there's moods, there's dispositions, there's mental illnesses, and they're all different. So should we go there for a minute?

    5. CW

      Sure.

    6. MB

      Okay. So an emotion is typically an automatic response to a stimulus that comes from something in our heads or something in our environments that causes us to, that causes us to have a shift in our thinking, in our motivation, in our expression, in our behavior, that's rooted in our entire life. That's the piece that I think people miss, that when we're experiencing an emotion, it's not just from that moment. It's coming from our entire life to that moment. That's an emotion. A feeling is just a private, subjective experience. You know, I don't feel like talking to Chris today. I don't feel like going to the movies. You know, that, I don't get a good feeling when I think about that person. That could be in your body. It could be your head. It's a little, um, more kind of this kind of subjective experience. A mood can be based off of an emotion or a feeling, but it's different because it's longer in duration and less intense. So like, I'm irritable. I don't know what it is, but I'm in a great mood today. That's a mood. You don't really know where it came from. It could be the weather or it could be lingering good news from yesterday. A disposition is something we were kind of getting at earlier, which is, I tend to be on the anxiety spectrum. You know, I tend to be more sad in general. I tend to be that kind of like, "Everything's gonna be great." Um, that's more your disposition. And then obviously, you know, depression, diagnosis, you know, those are diagnoses. And so I think people don't really know that granularity, if you wanna call it that, in the language of emotion, and that could be helpful for people to kind of just, just know.

    7. CW

      Mm-hmm. I th- I certainly think that there is a, a difference, a difficulty with people confusing the two, feeling an emotion-

    8. MB

      Yeah.

    9. CW

      ...and dealing with it.

    10. MB

      Yeah.

    11. CW

      It's like, "I'm feeling my anxiety." It's like, okay.

    12. MB

      Yeah, I didn't get to answer your question yet.

    13. CW

      Yeah.

    14. MB

      So that was just my, I mean, kind of like being Mr. Professor for a minute to give people, like, this kind of nuance in language for feelings, moods, et cetera. You were asking earlier about the difference between kind of feeling your feelings and dealing with your feelings. And my point is that we don't have to deal with all of our feelings. Sometimes they just, they're ephemeral. Oh, hi anxiety, you're here for a minute. Welcome. See you soon. No big deal. Um, we get a little frustrated in a meeting. We're like, "It's gonna go away. Like, how much is this gonna really impact me right now? Let it go." It's when we feel like the emotion that we're experiencing is gonna interfere with our relationship, with our learning, with our, um, decisions, you know, with our, uh, performance, that's when you really need to regulate.

    15. CW

      Yeah, that's interesting. Um,

  9. 1:05:13 – 1:19:15

    Why Being ‘Too Sensitive’ Is a Myth

    1. CW

      I, I wanna talk about shame. I think that shame is really interesting. I, I, I, what do you... How'd you come to think about shame? Is it a meta emotion? Is it, is it in a unique category in some way, given that shame is often one of those second order things, that I feel a thing and I have shame around it? Um...

    2. MB

      I would say that, you know, as I s- I think shame, w- what we would put in that, in the category of a self-conscious emotion. But I think the, the, the, the, the difficulty with shame is that we don't put shame upon ourselves for the most part. We are shamed by people. Someone else has decided that we're not worthy, and they do everything they can to convince us of that, and then we believe it. And that goes back to the gaslighting piece. I think most of the shame that we experience in life is because of other people gaslighting us.

    3. CW

      Say a little bit more about the gaslighting thing. You don't really feel that, you shouldn't feel that?

    4. MB

      Yeah, gaslighting is when... Essentially, at the heart of gaslighting is that the reality that someone else has created for you is something that you now believe.

    5. CW

      Could you give us an example in the world of emotions?

    6. MB

      Yeah. Uh, let's say, you know, "You know, Chris, you're just so sensitive. You know, have you ever, I mean, do you, have you realized, like, you're- you're just too sensitive?" And then in the beginning, you're like, "You know, well, maybe I am. I'm not, I don't think I am." But after a while, I've convinced you that you start believing that you are too sensitive. That's gaslighting.

    7. CW

      What if it's true?

    8. MB

      No one can be too sensitive. (laughs) Sorry about that.

    9. CW

      Now, now that I am very interested in, in hearing more about. I ha- I had a highly sensitive people, uh, and what that means and whether you've looked into that, uh-

    10. MB

      Yeah.

    11. CW

      ... as, as something that I thought I wanted to talk about.

    12. MB

      Of course.

    13. CW

      So give me, give me more on that.

    14. MB

      Yeah, I mean, it's like having too much self-compassion. Like, there's no such thing. Um, the... All of this is about emotional intelligence, at least what I'm talking about here. So yes, you may be prone to being sensitive. I'm a very sensitive person, but my emotion regulation is, "Mark, without it being someone else's decision, do you think you're being too sensitive about this? Do you think that, you know... Oh, okay, maybe this is an instance where I am being a little too overreactive. Okay, I can give myself that." But it can't be someone else's definition for you. That's just not cool.

    15. CW

      I think when people, when people think about being too sensitive, what they mean is your level of emotional reactivity is nonfunctional in the real world-

    16. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    17. CW

      ... and puts you on the back foot. Is that a fair assessment, do you think, of kind of like h- how some people think about it?

    18. MB

      It is. I don't think it's the right way to think about it. I think what you're getting at is that that person can't regulate.

    19. CW

      Hmm.

    20. MB

      They don't have the strategies. They have allowed someone else to have

    21. CW

      Oh, that makes... Yeah, no, I, I know exactly what you mean. So, um, uh, you are too sensitive is you seem to feel things and not be able to deal with them, not seem to be feeling things.

    22. MB

      Correct.

    23. CW

      Right. But if you are somebody that is of the highly sensitive persuasion, it's almost like, um, it's almost like coming from a family of fat people or something. Like, you have great ghrelin release. You have a bigger stomach.

    24. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    25. CW

      You have a lower BMR or whatever. Uh, you, my friend, unfortunately, are gonna have to do more work to stay in shape than person from skinny family with smaller stomach, less ghrelin, higher, uh, BMR. Uh, do you see it kind of in that sort of a way that people who are more prone to sensitivity, i.e. feel things more deeply, both up and down depth, um, that there is, if they want to-

    26. MB

      Yeah, you're gonna have to... No, I, I think the, the... Sensitivity is just one example. I mean, I have a friend who is a former tennis coach who has so much energy, she makes me want to, like, crawl under a blanket, you know? And it's like, "Calm down." (laughs)

    27. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    28. MB

      "Your energy is killing me." So she needs to know how to down regulate because of her kind of endless need to be enthusiastic and excited about things. I'm like, "Gosh," like, "can you calm down?"

    29. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    30. MB

      I, on the other hand, am someone who, you know, I would rather go for a cup of coffee and sit at a wine bar, and sometimes she's like, you know, "Mark, come on," like, "can we get a little energy here?" Like, "Can you," like-

  10. 1:19:15 – 1:24:02

    Is It Possible to Be Too Self-Aware?

    1. CW

      Is- is it possible to be too self-aware?

    2. MB

      No. Sorry. It, again, it all goes back to regulation. It all goes back... You know, one thing that we didn't talk about yet is this idea of being an emotion scientist about your life. And, you know, again, most of us are emotion judges. You know, we're not that self-aware. You know, we're like, "I'm feeling fine. I'm, you know, yeah, I'm ignoring my feelings. I'm thinking that this is who I am and I can't change." But the emotion scientist is always kind of checking in, like, "Did how I regulate that work? Did it not work? What might I do differently next time?" The emotion scientist says, "Did I really know how I felt in that moment?" Um, or, "Maybe I need to really think, like get on that app and like plot the real feeling that I'm having." So that endless curiosity is actually helpful, but it's not... And this is a really... And I- I'm glad you brought this up 'cause another one of the pushbacks... Remember the whole parenting thing we were talking about?

    3. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    4. MB

      Well, another pushback that I get is, "Marc is trying to make a world filled with self-indulgent people."

    5. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    6. MB

      And I'm like, "There's a big difference between self-awareness and self-indulgence." I do not want you or me or anybody checking in with their feelings 500 times a day. That is unhelpful.

    7. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    8. MB

      That will cause you to ruminate, that will cause you to go nuts. What I want us to do is I want us to look at our lives and think, "How am I feeling in general?" That's a good question to ask yourself. But throughout the day, there are strategic moments, like when you walk into your office, or before a podcast, or before you go home, or before you're making an important decision, just check in, "How am I feeling? Is this feeling helpful? Is it unhelpful? What emotion would be most helpful to achieve my goal?" That's the goal of emotional intelligence.

    9. CW

      That's great. I- it's... I wonder whether emotional regulation is sometimes a mask for people-pleasing.

    10. MB

      I have to think about that one for a second. Is emotion regulation... Well, I think if it's an authentic regulation, right? If it's... You know, yes. But real emotion regulation, you know, the subtitle of my book is Dealing with Feeling: Use Your Emotions to Create the Life You Want. And I think that's the- the key element here, is that we deserve to have the best lives ever. We can have all the money in the world, we can have all the objects in the world, and all the fame in the world, but if we don't like ourselves, like if I don't wake up and say, "You know, Marc, you're a good guy," and if I'm not trying to make the world a better place, whether it's in my career or in my office, um, and using strategies wisely to do that, to me, you know, at least for me, my life isn't worth living.

Episode duration: 1:27:33

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