The Life-Changing Skill of Emotional Regulation - Dr Marc Brackett

Chris Williamson 0:00 Only one in five adults can name more than three emotions they feel regularly. Why do you think that is?

Dr. Marc Brackett 0:09 I think, bluntly, I think it's because we don't have an emotion education. We just ignore that aspect of our lives.

Chris Williamson 0:17 What does that mean? What does an, an emotion education mean?

Dr. Marc Brackett 0:23 It means that from preschool to high school, and even when we're in the workplace or in college, we are building our emotion skills. You know, vocabulary, for example. Just to give you one example, I'm gonna ask you right now, what's the difference between, uh, anger and disappointment?

Chris Williamson 0:40 Ooh. Anger is fiery.

Dr. Marc Brackett 0:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 0:47 And feels like you're on the front foot.

Dr. Marc Brackett 0:49 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 0:50 Disappointment, uh, for me, is the color of, and it's the color of red for me, orangey-red. Uh, disappointment is sort of a blue-gray, like a p- dark purple/blue-gray. And it is, it's sort of closed, and it feels like I'm on the back foot. It feels like I'm sat in a very low couch. Um, I'm aware-

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:11 Well-

Chris Williamson 1:11 ... that's not a particularly precise (laughs) definition.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:14 (laughs) No, good.

Chris Williamson 1:14 But it's, it's-

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:14 You're, you're, you're, you're a creative type. That's for sure. Um, and all beautiful kind of metaphors and, and-

Chris Williamson 1:21 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:22 But like, I really wanna know like the psychological definition or difference between the two. So what are you thinking?

Chris Williamson 1:28 I'll hand, I'll hand that, I'll... (laughs) Okay.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:30 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:30 A psychological difference or definition between the two. Uh, functionally, anger is somebody has stepped over a boundary and you need to exclaim loudly enough to ensure that they know that they have crossed some sort of threshold. Uh, it's, uh, uh, kind of like being your own law enforcement in a way. Uh, disappointment, uh, is around hopes, expectations, and those not being met. Maybe that's better.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:55 You got it. Th- that was much better. That was great.

Chris Williamson 1:57 (laughs)

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:57 So, disappointment.

Chris Williamson 1:58 Okay.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:59 You know, you're, uh, you're on your verge of being an emotion scientist.

Chris Williamson 2:03 Yes.

Dr. Marc Brackett 2:03 Um.

Chris Williamson 2:04 (laughs)

Dr. Marc Brackett 2:04 So disappointment, unmet expectations, anger, perceived injustice. And so I think a lot of people kind of look at my work and they're like, "You know, whatever, who cares that you know the difference between anger and disappointment or anxiety and stress or pressure and fear?" But what we say in our research is that you have to name it to tame it. You gotta label it to regulate it. And oftentimes, you know, men in particular are gonna come into our offices, you know, our homes, and, you know, act one way. They're gonna behave one way, kind of a socially appropriate way of, you know, typically aggression, with all emotions, whether it's disappointment, frustration, fear, or anxiety. And the argument that we make is that until people really know how they feel and why they feel the way they do, it's impossible to support them in managing it.

Chris Williamson 2:53 Right. Yeah, that does make sense. Okay, so what is emotional intelligence? Like, is that a thing? I remember there was this whole world of IQ, EQ. What does emotional intelligence mean?

Dr. Marc Brackett 3:08 So at its simplest level, emotional intelligence is using your feelings wisely to achieve your goals. Using all of our emotions wisely. But that's not specific enough. And the model that I've worked on is called RULER. So there are five skills. The first is recognizing emotions in oneself and others, understanding the causes and the consequences of emotions, labeling emotions precisely, knowing how and when to express emotions with different people across cultures, and then finally, the big R, which is my new book, which is Regulating Emotions. What do you do with those feelings, both your own and other people's?

Chris Williamson 3:43 Mm. Okay. So it is functional. That would be one way to put it, like it has an outcome. It's not just a thing that you're imbued with. It's using your emotions to achieve.

Dr. Marc Brackett 3:56 Yes. It's goal-oriented.

Chris Williamson 3:58 Mm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 3:59 Just like, I mean, you can have an IQ and not use it. A lot of (laughs) people don't. Um, but the same thing applies to your emotional intelligence. The e- the expectation or the idea is that you have this set of skills and you apply them to your life so that you make better decisions, you make, you know, you know, better relationships, you achieve your goals in life.

Chris Williamson 4:19 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 4:19 You know, what I show in my research is that, you know, we're, we like to think that our creativity and our general intelligence are the kind of, the things that we need to achieve our goals.

Chris Williamson 4:30 Mm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 4:30 But what I've shown is that there are a lot of obstacles in the creative process, a lot of obstacles in achieving our success in life. And if we don't have the skills to manage the frustration or the anxiety or the disappointment, even the most creative among us don't really achieve the outcomes.

Chris Williamson 4:47 Yeah, I think a lot of people would see emotions and the utilizing of emotions as a vector for weakness, not one for expediting success.

Dr. Marc Brackett 4:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:58 Uh, why,

Chris Williamson 5:02 why should people tap into emotions at all? How, how are they a performance enhancer in that way?

Dr. Marc Brackett 5:08 Well, I'm gonna be provocative and say based on my research and, you know, the work I've done recently, I think that emotion regulation should actually be the new definition of success. Um, and meaning that we think of success as you got the fancy car, you got the big house, you have the big career, whatever it might be. But truthfully, if you can't manage your emotions and settle your nervous system, if you can't manage or support other people as a leader, for example, in regulating their emotions, oftentimes, the company doesn't do as well as you might think it could do. And oftentimes, your own mental health suffers and your goal attainment suffers. So I think that's a... A lot of people are fighting me on that one. You know, they think, "Well, you know, you know, well, look at my..." I've done talks for big Fortune 100 companies, and you know, like, "Look, look at me, Mark. Look at my office. You think I really need emotional intelligence?" And the first thing I say to them (laughs) is like, "Well, I interviewed the five people who report to you, and, and they don't like you. They actually hate you. So, you know, maybe..." (laughs)

Chris Williamson 6:07 (laughs)

Dr. Marc Brackett 6:08 (laughs) You know, so, you know, maybe you should develop some emotional intelligence skills, and maybe the company could be even, could be doing even better than it is.

Chris Williamson 6:15 Mm. Yeah. I, uh...What, what is... You said, uh, the, like, the definition of high performance is emotional regulation.

Dr. Marc Brackett 6:26 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 6:26 Not emotional intelligence. So let's-

Dr. Marc Brackett 6:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 6:28 ... define terms. What's emotional regulation?

Dr. Marc Brackett 6:31 So, in the hierarchy of emotional intelligence, emotion regulation comes at the top, right? It's like e- all these skills come together and then it, like, helps you kind of t- deal with your feelings and the way I define it is, I have a little formula that kind of makes me feel smart. Um, it's ER, uh, emotion regulation is a set of goals and strategies. So think about that. You can prevent an unwanted emotion. Most people don't think about regulation that way. They think of, "Oh, I'm stressed out. I gotta reduce my stress," but no. If you're a kid in this classroom and you know you're gonna be anxious on Thursday at the test, let's prepare now for the test, so you're not anxious on Thursday.

Chris Williamson 7:13 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 7:14 If you're, you know, a sports person and you're going out on the track or out, you know, to do a match... My other background is I taught martial arts for 25 years. And so, uh, you know, I'm thinking about all my martial arts students getting so, you know, anxious and as soon as the, you know, the opponent came on the mat and I would say to them, like, "That's not the time to regulate." (laughs) You gotta regulate way before you even show up to the match. You gotta be preparing yourself to be present, to not be, you know, flustered. So there's a prevention piece to it. There's a reduction piece to it. In the moment, you gotta reduce the feeling, like if you get triggered, you get activated, you gotta, "Marc, take a deep breath, calm down." I think another interesting piece of regulation is initiating emotions so as someone who manages a, a large team, um, I'm always thinking to myself, like, "What emotion is gonna best serve the goal of this meeting?" Like, "Do I want people to be inspired? Do I want them to be calm? Do I want them to be kind of, like, serious?" And then it's my job to create the emotional climate that aligns with that to achieve the outcome. I don't think people think about that very much. The M in PRIME, this is an acronym, is maintain. So it's like, "I'm having a good day, I'm in flow, I'm writing my book." And all of a sudden, like, I get that email or I get that phone call and it's like, "No," like, "stay away." Like, "I'm, I'm doing, I'm really in a great place right now."

Chris Williamson 8:36 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 8:36 And then the E is kind of enhancing emotions. So it's a long definition, but it's a complicated concept.

Chris Williamson 8:43 (laughs)

Dr. Marc Brackett 8:43 So PRIME is the goals, prevent, reduce, initiate, maintain, or enhance. Then the S is strategies. Thousands of strategies, right? I mean, walking in nature, taking a deep breath, shifting your thinking or reappraising, getting social support and so emotion regulation is G plus S. But then there's another piece of it, which is that all of that varies as a function of the emotion you're feeling. 'Cause you need different strategies for different emotions. Kind of your personality. I'm an introvert. I don't know about you. You seem a little bit more outgoing than I am. (laughs) I'm just making that guess. But, um, you know, at the end of the day, like I had a re- I had like a 12-hour day yesterday and, um, it was like 9:00 PM, I went to a yoga class to relax but the yoga teacher was so chatty that I had to leave the class. I mean, I hate... It's embarrassing to say. I had to walk out of the yoga class 'cause my brain needed... I wa- I was looking forward to that hot yoga class where I could just, like, disappear and instead I had someone, like, talking at me for (laughs) like 45 minutes. I was like, "This is not good for me." So ba- you know, that's my personality. I know what I need and that's gonna help me choose so instead I went for a walk around Central Park. Much better. Um, so it's the emotion, the person, and the context. You know, right now, if I'm getting anxious, for example, during our conversation, I can't be like, "You know, hey Chris, you know what? I'm going for a run." Like, yeah, that's a little weird. So anyway, I'll leave it there.

Chris Williamson 10:15 Mm. Yeah, it's a-

Dr. Marc Brackett 10:16 A lot to think about.

Chris Williamson 10:17 It's, it is a complex topic. That's

Chris Williamson 10:21 true. Why do you think, why do you think so few of us were t- ever taught emotional skills if they are as fundamental as you say? Even if they are as fundamental functionally as you say, you know?

Dr. Marc Brackett 10:35 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 10:35 Uh, uh, you, uh, meritocratic, egalitarian, I'm gonna go and get the thing in life. Ooh.

Dr. Marc Brackett 10:41 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 10:43 Why, why are people not learning these if, if they're so powerful?

Dr. Marc Brackett 10:48 Yeah. It's interesting. I think, uh, it's historical. I think that people kind of thought and, uh, especially in psychology, you know, emotions, they're, you know, it's not behavior, so it's not objective. It's, like, in your head and you can't really study it which we've proven is not true but, um, that's one big piece of it. I think the other piece of it is that we tend to accrete feeling emotions with being emotional, like hysterical. And so we almost treat emotions as bad things to have because, you know, they drive you to make bad decisions and they're... Make you impulsive and ideo- and idiosyncratic impulses. Um, of course, it wasn't until, like, the '70s and '80s in research, people like Charles Darwin and other psychologists would say, "No, no, no, no, no, actually your emotions ensure your survival." Think about that. Like, fear is an adaptive experience. It's saying, "There's a threat, you know, stay away. Protect yourself." But, um, it's interesting how it's taken so long for people to kind of value emotional intelligence.

Chris Williamson 11:52 Mm. Yeah. Well, I suppose. It doesn't have great branding, I don't think, like emotions, emotional intelligence.

Dr. Marc Brackett 12:01 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:01 I don't think, I don't think when you, when you talk to people about it, they're thinking about the importance of being able to step into their body, work out what they're feeling.

Dr. Marc Brackett 12:11 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:11 Uh, (clears throat) I think what most people, especially men in the modern world would think about-... peak emotional capacity would be something much closer to suppression that, that, or, or, or-

Dr. Marc Brackett 12:29 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 12:29 ... um, ignorance, maybe.

Dr. Marc Brackett 12:32 Well, it's true. When I interview, and I do, I do a lot of talks for businesses, and, uh, I was doing one for a bunch of lawyers recently, and I said, "All right. Define emotion regulation. What is it?" And the first thing they say is like, "Controlling your emotions," you know, and then they... "Denying it," you know, "Ignoring it, suppressing it." I'm like, "No, no, no. Go back to your groups. (laughs) Redefine it." But that's, that is the mindset. The mindset is not to feel, which, by the way, is biologically impossible. Uh, which, by the way, the more you suppress, the more it's gonna show up in stomach problems, in physical health problems, in mental health problems.

Chris Williamson 13:08 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 13:08 Suppression is never the answer.

Chris Williamson 13:10 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 13:11 You know, we're gonna... Remember, it's about using our emotions wisely, and I... Uh, your point is a good one because, you know, with men in particular, it's like, can I really tell my wife, my partner, my colleague that I'm anxious?

Chris Williamson 13:22 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 13:23 You know, there's no way I'm about to tell anybody that I'm anxious because they're gonna think I'm weak. As a matter of fact, a father... Um, you know, I had a pretty rough childhood. I had abuse, unfortunately, a lot of bullying, and I'm, you know, I'm 56 at this point. You know, this is who I am. Like, I'm, I'm good with who I am, and I'm feeling pretty safe and comfortable, you know, sharing my own story. But it took me a while, and (laughs) these guys that, you know... Oftentimes at my talks, one guy said to me, you know, "Marc, there's no way I would ever be as vulnerable as you are, like, in front of other people. Like, you're sharing about your bullying, your abuse, and you're like, you have anxiety about the pandemic." And I'm like, "Well, did you feel those? You know, did you, did you have any anxiety during the pandemic?" He's like, "Yeah, of course I did." And I said, "Well, what'd you do about it?" He's like, "You know, I didn't talk about it. I drank alcohol, you know?" (laughs) And, um, I said, "Well, maybe there's a better way." Um, and I really wanted... I'm, I'm very interested actually in the gender piece of this because there is this like... We have... Men in particular have feelings about their feelings.

Chris Williamson 14:27 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 14:27 It's like they feel s- they feel shame that they're anxious. I don't know. What do you think about that?

Chris Williamson 14:33 Oh, I, I, I could talk about this for the rest of my life. I think...

Dr. Marc Brackett 14:37 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 14:38 (laughs) Uh, what I've called second order emotions, what you've probably got a much more official name for, uh, feeling bitterness at my resentment about my shame about my anxiety, this like infinite regress of thinking about thinking and my story that I tell myself about the story that I told myself about the thing that I felt, um-

Dr. Marc Brackett 14:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 14:58 ... appears to happen a lot in the world of men, and I think that guys-

Dr. Marc Brackett 15:04 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 15:04 I, I, I think guys struggle to find a place where there are emotions that aren't a very small number. Maybe resentment is allowed. Maybe anger is allowed. Um, sadness would... You would struggle with anxiety. You would struggle with, uh, grief. You would struggle with fear. Would be a real big difficult one as well, um, because all of those kind of strike at the heart of the emotional mastery, competence, conquer-

Dr. Marc Brackett 15:33 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 15:33 ... go after it and get it type thing that, uh, I think guys f- feel like they need to lean into and in many ways do need to.

Dr. Marc Brackett 15:40 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:41 Um, uh, and yet trying to blend those two worlds is, um... I think I'm probably not a bad role model for the sort of, uh, h- m- highly sensitive guy, uh-

Dr. Marc Brackett 15:58 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:58 ... at least in my personal life, and I'm completely bought in. I'm so... You know, I, I, I can say now because it's been, what? Three days, four days since I got back. I did... Do you know who Joe Hudson is? Are you familiar with Joe?

Dr. Marc Brackett 16:12 Mm-mm.

Chris Williamson 16:13 Art of Accomplishment, so, um, he is-

Dr. Marc Brackett 16:15 Oh, okay.

Chris Williamson 16:16 He is the, um, like head of culture at OpenAI, and-

Dr. Marc Brackett 16:21 Oh, okay. I do know what you're talking about now. Yep.

Chris Williamson 16:23 Yeah. I did Groundbreakers last week, which is at 9:00 AM till 9:00 PM for seven days-ish, uh, of emotional work every single day. And, uh, that was the most vulnerable, difficult, intense thing that I've ever done, uh, by-

Dr. Marc Brackett 16:44 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:44 ... by like quite some margin, and, um, it really reframed, I think, my perspective. I, I already was halfway there, but this really reframed it even more, my kind of viewpoint on what real strength looks like, sort of what, what... Yeah. I think strength is a, maybe a good, a, a good descriptor for it.

Dr. Marc Brackett 17:05 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 17:07 Denying or suppressing your emotions is still giving them a lot of power over you.

Dr. Marc Brackett 17:14 100%.

Chris Williamson 17:14 That you, you are saying, "This thing is so impactful and outside the bounds of my control, and I am at the mercy of it so much so that I can't engage with it." I think you could maybe make a, a similar sort of argument about somebody that has a substance abuse problem, and-

Dr. Marc Brackett 17:37 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 17:37 ... um, this person goes cold turkey. Like, hooray. Congratulations. Like you've, you've transcended your need for alcohol or nicotine or whatever it might be, but truly, like, alchemizing that would be reintroducing the substance on your terms and only ever needing one of them. It would be being, being able to use it again. Does that make sense? Do I sound insane?

Dr. Marc Brackett 17:59 No, it's great. I mean, it totally makes sense. I think you're getting at a lotta things. Number one is kind of this like, I'd rather like endure the suffering internally than let anybody know how I'm feeling to get the support I might need to-

Chris Williamson 18:14 (laughs)

Dr. Marc Brackett 18:14 ... live a better life. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 18:16 Yes.

Dr. Marc Brackett 18:18 Um, and I... You know, it's why so many people get divorced, right? It's, it's why, you know, people don't talk to their bosses when they wanna get a raise. It's why friendships... You know, because it's like, I'm having this feeling.... whatever it might be, and it's more painful for me to think about how I can tell you how I'm feeling and ask for your support or ask you to maybe change a little bit. Um, and I, I just, that is, like, beyond my imagination difficult, and so I'm just not gonna do it. But of course, the outcome is always worse because you would have a better relationship and better everything if you were more comfortable talking about it.

Chris Williamson 18:56 Mm. Yeah. So I think when it comes to the suppression thing, why, why is emotional suppression still seen as a strength? What is it, what, what is it that's left?

Dr. Marc Brackett 19:10 Well, I don't think it is.

Chris Williamson 19:12 Right.

Dr. Marc Brackett 19:12 I wouldn't say it's, I wouldn't say it's seen as a strength. I would say it's easier, and so it's, you know, people choose that as an option. It's like in my research, what I find, the top strategies that people are kind of used to not deal with their feelings, you know, avoidance, big one. It's like, "I'm just not gonna have a difficult conversation. I'm just not gonna go home tonight and talk to my significant other. I'm not gonna tell my kids." I mean, parents are even afraid to talk to their own kids about feelings. It's crazy.

Chris Williamson 19:41 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 19:41 Um, because they're afraid they can't deal with what they're gonna hear from their own kids. Um, so, uh, you know, the point is that I'd rather kind of not engage with the emotion, um, because the pain of what, what... Uh, what, oh, I'm sorry. What I was getting at is avoidance, a denial, uh, overeating, uh, drinking too much alcohol, uh, like you said, suppression, you know, all these become what I would call our automatic go-to terrible habits for dealing with our feelings. None of them lead to good outcomes for us. They usually lead to more shame, more regret, more self-hatred, the list goes on, and they never help us with our well-being or having good relationships or achieving the real goals we have in our lives. But the, the l- the new strategies, the helpful strategies, kind of what I write about, that even the, even doing a mindfulness exercise, which people sometimes roll their eyes at, we know that our sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems, right, need support. We need to deactivate that nervous system in order to be present, in order to have access to cognitive strategies to deal with our feelings. But-

Chris Williamson 20:56 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 20:56 ... "Oh, that's, that's, you know, I'm not gonna... That's fluff." Breathing, you know, been breathing, you know, since you came out of the womb, so it's probably a good thing. Um, the cognitive strategies. I mean, think about how much gaslighting there is in our world right now. I mean, be, let's be real. People are endlessly gaslit in terms of, you know, "You're not, you're too fat, you're too skinny, you're too tall, you're too short, you're not big enough, you're not small enough, you're too masculine, you're too feminine, you're too dark, you're too light." I mean, it's endless. And, you know, how many of us are taught when we're kids how to like, sift through that kind of judgment and say, "Hey, wait a minute, you know, you don't have the right to define my reality. Like, I actually like myself. And, like, stay away," you know? How do we, how many of us are learn, learned how to sift through what people are saying about us to then have a more positive view of ourselves as opposed to allowing other people to define our realities for us?

Chris Williamson 21:50 Mm. What happens if you don't express an emotion? You mentioned it earlier on. Let's say, uh, I hesitate to point the finger too much at repression as if it's something that people chose to do. Uh, in some ways, they-

Dr. Marc Brackett 22:05 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 22:05 ... th- th- they did, but it's not in the same way as you chose to push that person into open traffic. It's more like, "I'm scared," and-

Dr. Marc Brackett 22:13 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 22:14 ... "Wow, this is a lot. And what about the world outside? And what about the story I tell myself?" And, "Ugh, that's uncomfortable to deal with." Coping mechanisms and, you know, i- it's a lot of stuff that's going on that doesn't feel-

Dr. Marc Brackett 22:24 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 22:24 ... quite like commission or volition. It's just a desperate desire to try and survive.

Dr. Marc Brackett 22:30 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 22:31 Um, but if somebody continues to do that, what happens if you don't express emotions?

Dr. Marc Brackett 22:39 Well, it'd be, it's like a debt that keeps on getting bigger, and it comes out somewhere. It comes out, as I said earlier, in those maladaptive strategies. It comes out in terms of avoiding your significant others. It comes out in drinking too much alcohol. It comes out in having, you know, gastrointestinal issues (laughs) . It comes out with anxiety disorders and depressive disorders. I mean, the list goes on because we're born to feel, and, you know, we have to get those feelings expressed somehow or another. And if we don't do it, they're gonna find their way out. And unfortunately, for most people, because they haven't had the emotion education, it's easier, you know, we learn... Like, I don't know about you, but my parents were not like, the role models for emotional intelligence. You know, so, (laughs) you know, my father was a tough guy from the Bronx and he would say things like, "Son, you gotta toughen up."

Chris Williamson 23:30 Mm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 23:31 I'm like, "Dad, look at me. You know, I'm about as far from a tough guy as you can get." (laughs) I have a fifth degree black belt, but I'm not a tough guy. Um, and, you know, he would say things like, "I used to beat kids up like you." "Okay, great," you know. Uh, "They taught you that in parenting class, right, Dad?" Uh, and my mom, on the other hand, was with a lot of anxiety, and she would say things like, "And I can't take it anymore. I'm gonna have a nervous breakdown." So here I am, this like, five-year-old kid, ten-year-old kid in this, growing up in this environment. Like, what am I learning? I'm learning like, anxiety is weak, people lock themselves in their bedrooms when they're anxious, and you just sort of like lose yourself in your anxiety, and I learn, get angry at everything. And, (laughs) and that's pretty much what I was until, you know, I got my PhD in psychology. Um, I was, you know, this anxious, angry person who just, just like didn't know what the hell to do with his feelings.

Chris Williamson 24:23 Mm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 24:24 Um, so anyway.

Chris Williamson 24:27 Let's say that somebody is-... somebody resonates with that. Oh, anxious, angry person who doesn't really know what to do with his feelings, like Army of One-

Dr. Marc Brackett 24:37 Mm-hmm. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 24:37 ... listening, listening, listening here with the AirPods in, uh,

Chris Williamson 24:40 what is a good framework for them to follow to begin including-

Dr. Marc Brackett 24:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 24:47 ... integrating those emotions more healthily?

Dr. Marc Brackett 24:51 Great question. So this is, you know, what happened is I wrote this book many years ago, it's called Permission to Feel, and it was my argument that we have to give ourselves and everyone permission to feel. And, uh, I'm proud that it's been 30 languages now. And, you know, a lot of people understand that. Like, we have the first step, is we gotta, like, give ourselves that permission. It's like, it's okay to be anxious, it's okay to be angry. There's nothing bad about it. Anger is real. Anxiety is real. Like, don't judge it, just allow it to be. If you're feeling it for too long and it's too intense, you gotta do something about it. And then the pandemic hit and I got trapped in my house, um, with my mother-in-law. So she came to visit from the country of Panama for two weeks around March 1st of 2020. And, uh, let- little did we know that there would be a pandemic two weeks later, that she would stay with us for seven months. And I'm, like, losing it. You know, for me, the morning is like my kind of precious time. I like to have my really good cup of coffee, I like to, like, have my existential crisis, like, think about my purpose in life. And I like to do that alone, um, not with, you know, my mother-in-law, like, staring at me. So it got really rough. Anyway, we had this kind of meltdown in the house, and she looked at me and she's like, "Are you really the director of the Center for Emotional Intelligence?" And I was like, "Not tonight, I'm telling you that." (laughs) And so it just, like, the whole thing blew up. And I share that with you because here I was, like, supposedly, like, one of the world's experts in emotional intelligence and emotion regulation, and I'm like, you know, rock bottom, like, desperate, dysregulated. But then I, you know, when I went to bed that night, I thought to myself, "You know, Mark, you actually are the director of the Center for Emotional Intelligence. Like, this is your whole career. You've written 200 papers and books and all this stuff. Like, you gotta show up. You gotta, you gotta practice what you preach." And that's, in that moment, I decided to write a book on emotion regulation. It was like, I was walking down the stairs, I'm like, "Nobody knows anything about this stuff. If I don't know it, like, then nobody knows it." And so this new book that I wrote called Dealing with Feeling is really the map, and I just, I wanted it to be super practical. Like step one is you gotta shift your belief systems. There's no such thing as a bad emotion, period. There is no such thing as a b- Emotions are like the tide, they come and go. Sometimes they're unpleasant, sometimes they're pleasant. The second is you gotta build the vocabulary. You gotta know the words.

Chris Williamson 27:29 Mm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 27:29 Like, I'm gonna push, I'm gonna push you again. So anger and disappointment, we spent some time on that one a little earlier. Let's go to the one that everybody says they're feeling, which is anxiety.

Chris Williamson 27:39 Mm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 27:40 Everybody's anxious these days. Which I don't believe, by the way. Um, I think people say they're anxious, but they're not actually anxious.

Chris Williamson 27:48 Okay.

Dr. Marc Brackett 27:49 So anxiety versus stress versus pressure. You're taking my little test of emotional intelligence.

Chris Williamson 28:00 Oh, you want me to define the difference-

Dr. Marc Brackett 28:02 Yeah, I do.

Chris Williamson 28:02 ... between anxiety, stress and pressure?

Dr. Marc Brackett 28:05 Yeah, I do. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 28:08 Okay. Anxiety, uncertainty about the future.

Dr. Marc Brackett 28:12 You're good.

Chris Williamson 28:14 Um, stress, a concern between our inner level of capability and the outer, uh, demands that the society is placing on or that the world is placing on us. An uncertainty-

Dr. Marc Brackett 28:27 Okay.

Chris Williamson 28:27 ... an uncertainty that we can deal. I also get the sense that complexity is in there.

Dr. Marc Brackett 28:31 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 28:31 Stress has to do with lots of complexity that's going on. Velocity, complexity, um-

Dr. Marc Brackett 28:36 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 28:37 ... anxiety, stress. What was the other one?

Dr. Marc Brackett 28:39 Pressure.

Chris Williamson 28:40 Pressure. Ooh. Hmm. Obligation. Feels like-

Dr. Marc Brackett 28:46 Huh.

Chris Williamson 28:47 ... ob- feels like a sense of obligation as well.

Dr. Marc Brackett 28:50 You're pretty good. I think... Are you using, like, ChatGPT or something?

Chris Williamson 28:53 No. (laughs)

Dr. Marc Brackett 28:53 Um...

Chris Williamson 28:53 I might as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 28:56 The, um, so you, anxiety is about uncertainty around the future.

Chris Williamson 29:00 Yes, let's go. 10 out of 10. (laughs)

Dr. Marc Brackett 29:04 Stress is having too many demands and not enough resources.

Chris Williamson 29:06 Yes. Yeah, I'm gonna give myself 10 out of 10 again. Yep. I'm very-

Dr. Marc Brackett 29:09 And pressure is something at stake is dependent upon your action or behavior.

Chris Williamson 29:15 Okay. Uh, yeah, I was a little bit off on that one. Cool.

Dr. Marc Brackett 29:17 It's all right.

Chris Williamson 29:17 That'll do.

Dr. Marc Brackett 29:18 But why, why would I want you to know? Like, here you are this, you know, guru, you know, why do I want you to- (laughs)

Chris Williamson 29:25 Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 29:26 Why would I want you to know the difference between anxiety, stress, and pressure?

Chris Williamson 29:29 Hmm. Uh-

Dr. Marc Brackett 29:31 Why do I, why, why would, why would I care?

Chris Williamson 29:33 Because we default to the most common emotion. Uh, uh, we, we often bundle together, um, different things into a single word.

Dr. Marc Brackett 29:48 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 29:48 And by doing that, lots of things sound like one thing. So lots of things sound like anxiety when they might actually be stress or pressure.

Dr. Marc Brackett 29:55 Exactly. And what you do... So think about it, I remember when I'm anxious about something, I tend to say, "Mark, like, you got no control over that right now. Like, you can think about that till tomorrow night, and it's not gonna change 'cause you have no power over that. You've gotta look at it from a different perspective, you know, rethink it." That's what I do for anxiety. For stress, it's either I get help or I take stuff off my plate. I don't know what else to do. There's no... Like, I can take all the breaths in the world-

Chris Williamson 30:23 Mm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 30:24 ... but I'm still gonna have too much stuff on my plate and not enough time to get it done. And for pressure, it's like, I either gotta talk to my boss and say, "Hey, you know, like, this deadline is-"...it's killing me, you know?

Chris Williamson 30:35 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 30:35 And interesting enough, you know, I do a lot of work with college students 'cause that's where I'm a professor. Yesterday, I gave a speech to 1,500 high schoolers, which was, you know, a little bit challenging. Um, and I had done some research with them, and they all said they're stressed out. Everyone of them, "I'm stressed, I'm stressed, I'm stressed." But what my research showed was the number one emotion was, what do you think?

Chris Williamson 31:00 Pressure?

Dr. Marc Brackett 31:02 Envy.

Chris Williamson 31:03 Oh, okay.

Dr. Marc Brackett 31:05 N- none of the three. They're thinking they're stressed or they're saying that they're stressed, but what they're feeling is that everyone's better looking than they are, everyone has better opportunities than they have. Everybody studies for less time and gets better grades. Everybody's parents have more connections than their parents have. They're just, like, e- it's like this endless social comparison.

Chris Williamson 31:24 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 31:25 And so, but they're calling that stress. And so, you know, what's the, what do you do with that? You don't take deep breaths. You don't do meditation. You gotta, you know, and I tell them, like, you gotta switch from envy to gratitude. Like, look at all of you. You're in a great high school. You're doing pretty darn good. And you could just bask in that envy and par- and make, you know, be paralyzed by it.

Chris Williamson 31:50 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 31:50 Or you can, you know, shift your thinking 'cause I don't know other, any other way to get out of the envy spiral until you kind of look at things from a new lens.

Chris Williamson 31:59 That's interesting.

Dr. Marc Brackett 32:00 So do-

Chris Williamson 32:00 So let's, take, take me through, take me through your process of alchemizing envy. Somebody looks at somebody else. The comparison game is going on in their heads. Uh, maybe it comes up as a bit of resentment, maybe a little bit of bitterness, maybe a little bit of fear-

Dr. Marc Brackett 32:12 Yeah, exactly.

Chris Williamson 32:12 ... as well.

Dr. Marc Brackett 32:13 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 32:13 Um, but, you know, if they investigate themselves and they're truly, truly honest, they say something like, "Ah, I envy that person." What is a way that they can, um, integrate that emotion, uh, more effectively?

Dr. Marc Brackett 32:29 Yeah, I think the reality is if you're feeling envy, you're feeling envy, you know? Um, I think that the question is, is the why behind it? Is it going towards admiration or is it going towards resentment? I envy a lot of people. Like, I look at people giving a speech, I'm like, "God, their timing is great. That humor is amazing. Their, the way their posture is great." You know? And, but I don't wish they weren't skilled. I wanna, like, aspire, and so I use it as a, as a learning opportunity, I'm like, "Okay, wow, if I incorporate that into my speech, it's gonna get even better."

Chris Williamson 33:05 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 33:05 So that's a reframe. Do you see that's a reframe?

Chris Williamson 33:07 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 33:07 Instead of being bitter and resentful, I'm thinking, "Oh, I can actually learn from that person and apply that to what I do."

Chris Williamson 33:14 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 33:15 That's one way to do it, which I think is really important. The gratitude piece is, is another whole thing, which is, you know, I teach at Yale. I mean, let's be real. It's a pretty good university. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 33:27 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 33:27 And if you got into Yale, you gotta be pretty darn smart. And so, like, when students are starting to get envious of the other valedictorians, I'm like, "Can we take a break here? And just, like, look around? Like, you're doing great."

Chris Williamson 33:40 You're all winners.

Dr. Marc Brackett 33:40 Yeah, exactly. Let's, like, let's, you know-

Chris Williamson 33:42 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 33:42 ... let's, let's take a moment and, like, reflect on where we're at compared to many other people. Maybe you should just, like, wake up and say things, you know, think about three things that you're grateful for for being here.

Chris Williamson 33:53 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 33:54 And they're not taught to do that, you know, that's just the problem. It's not in... Their automatic habitual responses like, "They're smarter, they're better." Not, "Oh, wow, look at me. I've actually done pretty well in my life." Or, "Wow, I should be grateful that my parents worked their asses off to get me into this university and supported me," or whatever it might be.

Chris Williamson 34:13 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 34:14 I have a question on this. Again, uh, my recency bias is, like, fucking weapons-grade at the moment, right?

Dr. Marc Brackett 34:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 34:21 Because I've just come back from this, this big-

Dr. Marc Brackett 34:24 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:24 ... uh, retreat, which was exclusively about emotions. Couple of things to tell you.

Dr. Marc Brackett 34:28 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 34:28 Uh, when it comes to, uh, discerning between different emotions, what is this thing that is inside of me?

Dr. Marc Brackett 34:36 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 34:36 I really struggled. I, I realized that I really struggled to distinguish between something like frustration or agitation-

Dr. Marc Brackett 34:43 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 34:45 ... and anger.

Dr. Marc Brackett 34:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 34:46 Um, and that I was confusing a lot of the time. I was angry, but I was feeling it as frustration or agitation, and I wasn't allowing-

Dr. Marc Brackett 34:54 Sure.

Chris Williamson 34:54 ... myself 'cause I didn't think that anger was, was safe to move through. So I completely agree with it is important for us to be able to, like a nice sommelier, uh, detect the different notes that are constituting whatever the emotions are that are inside of us because-

Dr. Marc Brackett 35:07 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 35:08 ... you, you don't know how to deal with it if you don't do that. Uh, you also end up sort of calling yourself, you, you self-label this thing as, "Oh, there's my anxiety again." And you go, "Well, maybe it's not." Maybe you're pattern matching four different things as anxiety-

Dr. Marc Brackett 35:23 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 35:23 ... when it's not. Um, one of the other things that happened throughout the week though was a lot of work about actually getting into the body and allowing yourself to feel these emotions.

Dr. Marc Brackett 35:34 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 35:34 And one of the problems that I realized, I've, I've been kind of obsessed with emotions over the last 18 months. I really wanted to be, uh, less emotionally decapitated as I was referring to it, like-

Dr. Marc Brackett 35:44 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 35:44 ... emotions existed above the neck. Um, and getting down and being like, "Okay, what does this mean? How does this feel? Can I let it move through me? Can I have more emotional fluidity in that sense?"

Dr. Marc Brackett 35:54 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 35:54 Like, "Can it come and it goes? Can it come and it goes?"

Dr. Marc Brackett 35:57 Sure.

Chris Williamson 35:57 Um, how do you think about the limitations of trying to teach people this stuff through concepts and words that result in the, um, like, over-thinker, just having more to think about? Do you understand what I mean?

Dr. Marc Brackett 36:17 Yeah. I do.

Chris Williamson 36:17 Like, it, it's this, this sort of tactic, at least for me, until I, uh, spent more time getting below the neck, results in just more aphorisms or mantras or, you know, i- i- how do you think about combining embodiment with, with cognition?

Dr. Marc Brackett 36:36 Well, our emotions are a product of that. Um, so they're, they're... You need both. You need to be aware of what's happening in your body in terms of whether it's heat in your body, whether it's the arousal or activation in your body. The problem with that alone is that it's very misleading. So for example, um, for years I would, like, say that I'm a workaholic, and I'd be like 11:00 at night, and I'd be like, you know, "I'm, I'm anxious," and my partner would say, "You know, why are you anxious? You're just tired. Shut the freaking computer and go to bed."

Chris Williamson 37:10 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 37:11 And I'd be like, "Yeah, you're right. I'm not anxious. I'm just tired." I was confusing the signals in my body 'cause they felt the same as when I was anxious. So that's important for people to know that. We confuse our body expe- our bodily kind of reactions and experiences for emotions sometimes when they're not emotions. They're just physical states. The cognitive piece is important because it's the only way we can communicate, right? If you're in therapy or if you're trying to communicate to your partner, your whoever what you're feeling, you need language. And I, um, actually built this app that's free that you are gonna love, I promise you. It's called How We Feel.

Chris Williamson 37:46 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 37:46 And I was proud to build it with the co-founder of Pinterest. Uh, his name is Ben Silbermann and, uh, he and our teams worked together for two years, got an award from Apple-

Chris Williamson 37:55 Congratulations.

Dr. Marc Brackett 37:56 ... and we've now made it... Thank you. We made it available for free on iOS and Android, and, um, it is this tool that we call the Mood Meter, which is based on your pleasantness and your levels of activation and your bodily awareness, and it breaks into four quadrants. We got yellow, red, blue, and green. So yellow are high energy, pleasant emotions. I'm excited, I'm elated, I'm ecstatic, I'm jubilant, I am optimistic.

Chris Williamson 38:20 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 38:21 Green, I am calm, content, tranquil, peaceful, relaxed, blissful.

Chris Williamson 38:24 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 38:24 I am serene. Blue, I am down, disappointed, devastated, hopeless, despaired, depressed. Red, I am anxious, overwhelmed, I am angry, I am peeved, I'm irritated. So we've got the full range of emotions, but it's based on your appraisal of what's happening in the environment or in your head and your body. And then we give you 144 words to describe those feeling states.

Chris Williamson 38:47 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 38:48 So, um, and the definitions of them so you understand the reason behind it, and then we also give you an option to check in with your body, and you can locate where in your body you're feeling this emotion. And then you could track that over time and see if there's patterns between how you feel and where it shows up in your body.

Chris Williamson 39:03 Th- h- how, how, How I Feel?

Dr. Marc Brackett 39:05 No, How We Feel.

Chris Williamson 39:06 How We Feel. That has 25,000 reviews and it is five stars on the-

Dr. Marc Brackett 39:12 You know-

Chris Williamson 39:13 ... the App Store and it's an Editor's Choice. Dude, that's amazing. Congratulations. What a beautiful-

Dr. Marc Brackett 39:18 Thank you.

Chris Williamson 39:18 I mean, also someone is definitely stealing it with How I Feel, uh, because it's the same-

Dr. Marc Brackett 39:22 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 39:22 ... color profile, so going, going, get them to, uh, cease and desist-

Dr. Marc Brackett 39:26 There you go.

Chris Williamson 39:26 ... for, for, for passing off. Um, yeah, that's wonderful. I, uh, again, my recency bias is, is fucking potent at the moment because-

Dr. Marc Brackett 39:35 Sure.

Chris Williamson 39:36 ... I le- I learned all of this new stuff and it's very exciting to me, but it also feels right. I feel more aligned in that way, uh, and so I am, I'm completely on board even if, uh, even if it's, it's through an app.

Dr. Marc Brackett 39:49 Yeah. I mean, it's, uh, it's, uh, it's... You know, one thing about the app, it's not like you have to use it for the whole, your whole life, 'cause nobody uses any app for their whole life. But as a training ground, it's building that awareness. It's like, "Oh, when I'm... Before I walk into my office, I'm like, where am I in that mood meter? What's causing me to have that feeling? Oh, I'm feeling that way because of what happened at home. I don't need to take that out on the person at work."

Chris Williamson 40:12 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 40:12 That's what I'm trying to get people to do. But going back to the strategies-

Chris Williamson 40:16 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 40:16 ... so that's... Uh, we've only gotten to two of, like, the eight strategies just so you know. (laughs) So the first step is, as I said, shift your mindset, and the other piece of the mindset piece, by the way, is having kind of a growth mindset about your ability to regulate. So my father, for example, he'd say, "Son..." Like, "Son, this is the way I deal with my anger. You're gonna have to learn how to deal with it."

Chris Williamson 40:40 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 40:41 "Okay, Dad. You know, I guess you're not willing to learn anything." You know, that's a, that's a fixed mindset. Like, this is my destiny, you know, this is who I am, which is not true. Everybody could learn to regulate better. That's proven. So, uh, you're not born that way. So mindsets, language, then you got another breathing pieces. You gotta be able to deactivate. If you can't deactivate, you're toast because if you get triggered and you can't bring it down, you're gonna result in, you know, aggression, you know, or, um, saying something you regret or just blowing up. That's the mindfulness breathing work. But then the cognitive piece, as I shared earlier, is probably the most important in the end. You know, so many people just have such negative views of themselves. They look in the mirror, "And I'm not good enough and I'm not smart enough and I'm not creative enough and nobody wants to be around me," and that just creates a spiral into, you know, total despair. I don't know where in our childhoods we're taught to be self-compassionate, not in a, in a, in a fluffy way but literally saying, like... How do I say, "Mark, you can get through this. Mark, you're strong enough. Mark, guess what? This feeling of terror that's going through your brain right now is actually impermanent. You will not feel this way. There are rainy days, there are sunny days. Today is a rainy day. Tomorrow is gonna be a sunny day." All that cognitive work that we have to engage in to really help us have more positive outlooks. The third, or not the third but whatever we're on now, I ju- I know them in terms of what they are but, um, is... I don't think any of us should ever have to worry alone. Why? Like, why do we have to feel alone with our fears and anxieties? Of course, if I'm traveling and I'm in the airport and the flight gets canceled, I'm pissed off. "Mark, you gotta, like, deal with this." But in everyday life-... you know, we, we, we're built to be social creatures, and so I've done a lot of research on this actually. Take a guess, what are the top three characteristics of the people that we're just desperate to be around?

Chris Williamson 42:55 Ooh. Hmm. What- w- can you give me an example of a characteristic that isn't in there, just so that I know the sort of...

Dr. Marc Brackett 43:02 Uh, smart.

Chris Williamson 43:03 Right. Okay, okay.

Dr. Marc Brackett 43:04 (laughs) Which is interesting, that it's not in there.

Chris Williamson 43:06 Ah. (laughs) Um, attentive or curious, something like pro-social. Their, their attention is focused on us in a way.

Dr. Marc Brackett 43:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 43:18 (clears throat) Uh, regulated or peaceful, something in that kind of realm. Uh, the, the m- the person is, uh, not volatile would be another way maybe to say it.

Dr. Marc Brackett 43:29 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 43:31 Um, third one...

Dr. Marc Brackett 43:32 (imitates whispering)

Chris Williamson 43:39 I would have said smart. I would have said smart. So, uh, I'll give you-

Dr. Marc Brackett 43:42 Yeah, okay.

Chris Williamson 43:42 ... I'll give you two, two of mine.

Dr. Marc Brackett 43:45 Interestingly enough, smart never shows up, I've studied this with 25,000 people, maybe like three people, four people.

Chris Williamson 43:52 Hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 43:52 In terms of the people that we wanna be around, in terms of, like, especially when it comes to being supported by them-

Chris Williamson 43:59 Hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 43:59 ... there's three core characteristics, and I've shown this now cross-culturally, uh, both from the US to England to Spain to Italy to Australia to Hong Kong to Costa Rica.

Chris Williamson 44:11 Hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 44:12 No cultural differences. Number one, non-judgmental.

Chris Williamson 44:18 Okay. Yep.

Dr. Marc Brackett 44:20 We just, we're s- everybody's just s- kind of burnt out from the judgment in our society. Just, "Can I just be myself? Can you just let me be who I wanna be?" Number two, good listener. We're dying to be around people who just listen but not listen to, like, retaliate, but listen to kind of help you gain perspective. And the third is just empathy and compassion. Think about that. I mean, imagine if we had a society where we were kind of like striving to have a- people who are nonjudgmental, who are good listeners, who showed empathy and compassion. I mean, I don't know. I wanna live in that world, to be honest with you.

Chris Williamson 44:59 Mm. Yeah, it's... How funny that (clears throat) those are all very soft skills, I think you would say.

Dr. Marc Brackett 45:07 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 45:08 And, uh, not in the typical form of the word, but they are soft traits, right? They're, they're-

Dr. Marc Brackett 45:13 Yeah, they're social and emotional.

Chris Williamson 45:14 Yeah. They're, they're gentle, they're nurturing, they're reassuring. Um, and yet when we look at what are the sort of traits that people try to develop, it's their charisma, their brashness, uh, y- their wittiness, you know, their quickness-

Dr. Marc Brackett 45:32 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 45:32 ... with words. Um, and that-

Dr. Marc Brackett 45:36 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:36 ... that appears to not be the thing. There's this, uh, I, I, I kind of got obsessed with an idea similar to this from, uh, The School of Life, Alain de Botton's thing, and, uh, he has this idea that, um, some people are interesting, some people make us feel interesting, and we tend to want to be around the latter more than the former.

Dr. Marc Brackett 45:54 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 45:54 Uh, and I think it's just such a wonderful... Inverse charisma, you could call it, right? Um...

Dr. Marc Brackett 45:58 Totally. Other-oriented.

Chris Williamson 46:00 Other-oriented, that's nice. Yeah. Here for, "Hey, just, there's room for you. There's room for you in this conversation. Like, bring it on. That's cool."

Dr. Marc Brackett 46:07 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 46:08 "I'm gonna sit here. I'm not going to judge. I'm going to be with you," and I, this is really, really similar to the, uh, VIEW framework that Joe has from Art of Accomplishment, that's vulnerability-

Dr. Marc Brackett 46:18 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:18 ... impartiality, um, empathy, and wonder. So-

Dr. Marc Brackett 46:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:23 ... uh, vulnerability, uh, saying what's true even when it's scary. Impartiality, not trying to change the other person. Empathy-

Dr. Marc Brackett 46:31 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:31 ... sitting in the emotion without tr- without being captured by it, and-

Dr. Marc Brackett 46:35 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:36 ... wonder, uh, inquisitiveness without an outcome, so like curiosity but not needing the answer, so to speak.

Dr. Marc Brackett 46:42 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:42 And, uh, it seems to me like your 25,000-person cohort would-

Dr. Marc Brackett 46:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:47 ... that would slot together with-

Dr. Marc Brackett 46:49 It's very similar.

Chris Williamson 46:50 ... pretty nicely, yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 46:51 What's interesting though is that the research that I do goes from childhood to adulthood, and what I look at is, did you grow up with that? Like, did you grow up with someone in your life who created the conditions for you to be your true self? And what I find is that only about a third of people say yes. Two thirds of people say, "No, there was nobody when I was growing up."

Chris Williamson 47:13 Hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 47:14 They was nonjudgmental.

Chris Williamson 47:15 So it's not like they learned this in childhood-

Dr. Marc Brackett 47:18 Mm-mm.

Chris Williamson 47:18 ... or something. They didn't pattern match, "I once had a supportive parent, and then I want that in adulthood."

Dr. Marc Brackett 47:24 No. As a matter of fact, going back to the male-female thing, of the people who say yes so they had, they had the person, half of them say it was a parent, so like I say a third, so that's like, what, 17%-

Chris Williamson 47:37 Hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 47:37 ... say it was a parent. Of that 17%, only 2% say it was their dad.

Chris Williamson 47:43 Oh, wow!

Dr. Marc Brackett 47:45 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:46 Wow.

Dr. Marc Brackett 47:47 Nobody, nobody's thinking about their dads as a nonjudgmental listener.

Chris Williamson 47:53 (laughs)

Dr. Marc Brackett 47:54 That's what happens. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 47:54 I wonder, you know, did w- m- me and a lot of the, the guys last week were talking about, um, whether there is going to be some sort of pattern shift from the boomer generation to sort of whatever millennial, Gen Z parenting-

Dr. Marc Brackett 48:10 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 48:10 ... with the ascendancy of, um, uh, podcasts and courses and embodiment work and emotional awareness and stuff like that, um, you know, breaking some of those, uh, well-trodden generational cycles of sort of how specifically men, uh, show up for their kids and, and the sort of community around them and stuff like that. Uh, I would like to think that maybe if you were to do this again in another 15, 20 years that maybe you'll start to see some pockets grow up of, "Yeah, Dad was... He did feel more comfortable-"

Dr. Marc Brackett 48:42 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 48:42 "... about showing up in a nonjudgmental way." Um, the, the, uh, fragile male ego had been alchemized somewhat.

Dr. Marc Brackett 48:50 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 48:50 But, uh-

Dr. Marc Brackett 48:50 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:50 ... maybe not. Maybe, maybe we're j- maybe this is just fresh packaging on the same, like, patterns, the same non-showing up patterns. I don't know.

Dr. Marc Brackett 48:58 I mean, I'm working on it. You know, I have, I do a lot of work in companies where they, my, a big part of my career is doing this work in school systems, and so I have a program called RULER that's in 5,000 schools across the United States. And I think I'm raising a bunch of, and I call them Uncle Marvins, 'cause Uncle Marvin was my hero in my life.

Chris Williamson 49:19 Hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 49:20 And, uh, he was the person who gave me the permission to feel, and so, uh, I like that, you know, what do we do to create a world filled with people who have these characteristics? That's kind of my vision and hope. But that's, you know, that's a piece of it, and so we've gone from mindsets to language to kind of deactivating our nervous system to having the self-talk that's productive instead of destructive to having these, I call them emotional allies, um, meaning our, the people that we can share and talk to, talk, you know, you know, our emotions with. Um, and then there is the piece that a lot of athletes are really knowledgeable about. It's the sleep habits, it's the nutrition, it's the physical activity. We know those three things directly correlate with our ability to regulate emotions effectively, and I think a lot of people misunderstand that. They think, "Oh, it's about my health." No, no, no. If you don't get good quality sleep, you're gonna lose it in the morning with your kid.

Chris Williamson 50:19 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 50:19 You're just not gonna have replenished and, you know, emotion regulation takes effort and so if you don't have the, the time to rejuvenate, you're gonna have a much shorter fuse. And the final thing that I really help people do, uh, in my book is I want them to imagine that they have an identity as someone who is well-regulated, and I stole this from a personal trainer.

Chris Williamson 50:48 Okay.

Dr. Marc Brackett 50:49 Um, and, uh, stealing it is not the right way, but I got the idea from him. So during the pandemic, I decided I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna get fit again and I met this guy named Marco and, uh, online fitness expert, and, uh, and I, you know, I was never, I was a martial artist, I was very athletic, but not a weightlifter. I decided that I'm gonna become a dude, I'm gonna lift weights. And so this process of going from, you know, "I'm a 50-year-old psychologist. Why am I doing deadlifts?" You know? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 51:25 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 51:26 Like, those really, like, I had so much negative self-talk. I was like, "This is ridiculous." Like, "Why am I doing this?" Like, um, I've been married for 27 years. Like, "Who cares what my body looks like?" And it was like, that was the first phase of getting rid of the negative self-talk, right? Then the second phase was, "Wow, I'm actually enjoying this. I, I, I see a difference. This is cool. I've, like, got some definition." But by about two years into it, I could not not work out. Like, I, even today, like, at this point it's been, like, five years now and I have a little app and I work, uh, like, I have to do my four workouts a week, and I'm, like, irritable and, like, antsy if I don't get that work in-

Chris Williamson 52:09 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 52:09 ... workout in, and I think it's because I now identify as someone who lifts weights. It's part of my identity.

Chris Williamson 52:15 Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 52:16 My vision is that we can apply that in our society to emotion regulation, that if we had people walking around saying, like, you know, "I ident- I'm, I'm, this is, like, I'm a master at managing emotions."

Chris Williamson 52:29 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 52:29 Like, think about if you were triggered by someone, you'd just be like the Yoda of emotional intelligence 'cause (snaps fingers) "You can't, you can't harm me."

Chris Williamson 52:37 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 52:38 Oh my God. So that's my vision. I don't know, what do you think about that? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 52:43 I c- I certainly think that when you begin to identify as something, it's a powerful route to, uh, reinforcing all of the habits that-

Dr. Marc Brackett 52:50 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 52:50 ... come below it. Um, I think, yeah, I, people identify with an emotion, "I am an anxious person."

Dr. Marc Brackett 52:59 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 52:59 "I am an irritable person. I have a short fuse. I tend to be really excitable. I tend to be very enthusiastic. I get sad quickly." Um, but not the meta skill of, "I have emotional fluidity."

Dr. Marc Brackett 53:12 Correct.

Chris Williamson 53:12 "Emotions for me, they come and go. Uh, I am able to sit with emo- I'm brave with my emotions," right? Which is an interesting kind of meta skill to think about that. That was something else that I learned last week. Um, the, the kind of bravery that you need to be able to actually feel an emotion is way more bravery than it takes to suppress one.

Dr. Marc Brackett 53:32 Correct.

Chris Williamson 53:32 Like, it's so-

Dr. Marc Brackett 53:32 And I like that, you know, we-

Chris Williamson 53:34 Go ahead. Go ahead.

Dr. Marc Brackett 53:35 No, no. Um, I liked where you were going a little while ago, which is that for somehow or another, we've accepted it on our society, like, "I'm an anxious person," and then it's like, "Oh, oh, oh. You know, I understand." Firstly, that's not true. Like, you're not, you know, your, your, your whole, you know, body composition and your DNA is not an anxious person. You know, you're feeling anxiety. It's an experience that you're having-

Chris Williamson 54:01 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 54:01 ... so that distance from the emotion is important because it will be, create a self-fulfilling prophecy. You know, just, you'll just, you'll, everything that you do in life, you will see through that lens. Well, why don't we give people the skills they need and then they can identify as, "Guess what?" You know, "Yes, I'm gonna have anxiety. Yes, I'm gonna have fear. Yes, I'm gonna feel depressed if I don't get the job I wanted, but it's not the end of my life. It's not the end of the world. I can reframe. I can try this. I can do this." And I feel like we're just, it's, that's gonna be, it's a, it's a battle that I'm fighting right now in our society because, um, there are a lot of people, by the way, who don't think this should be taught. They're thinking, "Keep this out of schools. Keep this out of, you know, companies, that this is not something that should be discussed or talked about," which is also, uh, a huge issue for me.

Chris Williamson 54:55 Why do you think they say that?

Dr. Marc Brackett 54:58 I think it's a number of reasons. Um-... one is that I think some parents believe that, like, I should be in control of what my kid learns about feelings, um-

Chris Williamson 55:07 But not what they learn about maths or history.

Dr. Marc Brackett 55:09 Right, exactly, exactly. And I think it's because there's a fear base, you know, that, you know, that their kid is gonna be told what their values are, or their kid is gonna be told what they should be doing.

Chris Williamson 55:23 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 55:24 When the truth is, in our work, which is, you know, again, in 5,000 schools, it's far from that. It's, you know, I know from the research, across all populations, what works to help people regulate their emotions. That's why I wrote a book on how to deal with your feelings. And so, that's not Marc's opinion, this is research. Like, people are always asking, "What do you think about this? What is your opinion?" I'm like, "Don't ask me my opinion. I'm a scientist."

Chris Williamson 55:48 Let me tell you what the research says.

Dr. Marc Brackett 55:50 Exactly. I'm, I go back to the science. I don't wanna be blamed for my opinions.

Chris Williamson 55:52 Well, okay. So to, to, um, play devil's advocate for the parents, there is something to do with a child's emotional fluidity and emotional regulation that feels closer to their sense of identity, who they are-

Dr. Marc Brackett 56:05 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 56:05 ... truly, which is part of the lineage from parent to child, that the way that they join the letter E to the letter S, or the way that they do their five times table does not feel the same. It, it-

Dr. Marc Brackett 56:22 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 56:22 ... it does feel more sacred, more divine, more personal, more attached to that sense of self and identity. And if... It feels like you're fucking with the source code, frankly. It feels like-

Dr. Marc Brackett 56:37 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 56:37 ... you're getting in there and fucking with the source code. So I understand why there would be more trepidation about this, "I didn't have this-"

Dr. Marc Brackett 56:45 Sure.

Chris Williamson 56:45 "... when I was in school."

Dr. Marc Brackett 56:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 56:46 "This wasn't something that was taught to me. What if it changes and messes my kid up in some wa- You know, h- he's gone in and he's changed the boot loader programming." The, you know, the kids aren't turning on, and it just keeps resetting or restarting or whatever.

Dr. Marc Brackett 56:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:58 Um, I think if you were to teach the parents and tell them, "These are the sorts of outcomes," as soon as you get an education piece, I think a lot of that falls away.

Dr. Marc Brackett 57:07 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 57:07 Um, because the uncertainty is, hey, this is, you know, high, high danger stuff that we're playing with here. I'm happy to undo little Timmy's five times table being a little bit wrecked-

Dr. Marc Brackett 57:18 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 57:18 ... 'cause the maths teacher was off. I don't like the idea of trying to reframe his relationship with shame because of, you know, what, what happened in that way.

Dr. Marc Brackett 57:27 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 57:27 If they had, "I am s- uh, reliably confident that this thing is going to be good for my kid," I think that there would, there would still be some pushback.

Dr. Marc Brackett 57:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:37 Because, like, stop fucking with the inner workings of my child. Um-

Dr. Marc Brackett 57:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:40 ... but I think that that would be alleviated. That, I think, um, is my like, uh, um, gracious, uh, interpretation of why parents feel the way that they do.

Dr. Marc Brackett 57:50 Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, it's not all parents, it's some parents, but yes. And, you know, a lot of parents are like, "Thank God you're doing this, 'cause I don't know what the heck I'm doing."

Chris Williamson 57:57 Hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 57:57 Um, and by the way, it, you know, it makes it sound like kids don't have feelings in school. Like, they're anxious in math class, or they get left out at, you know, at gym, or nobody wants to sit with them at the lunch table. And we're just gonna ignore that. Like, that's ridiculous. Right? That kid is experiencing life six to seven to eight hours a day. Let's make sure that kid is aware of what they're feeling, has the courage to speak up, and has the strategies to manage the frustration, the overwhelm, the scare.

Chris Williamson 58:22 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 58:23 I mean, that just, that, there's, I can't imagine, like, that really makes a lot of sense to me. Um, and I hear you on that. You know, one thing I'll just, uh, I'll push back on your pushback as, as a little, a little role play here-

Chris Williamson 58:37 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 58:37 ... is that, you know, given that anxiety in our society has gone up like 50% in the last 30 years, um, like, just parents, like, you're not doing such a good job. (laughs) So, you know, it's like-

Chris Williamson 58:51 (laughs) Hey, guys. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 58:52 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:52 Show me the alternative.

Dr. Marc Brackett 58:53 But-

Chris Williamson 58:53 I, you know, I didn't deal with my emotions, and my son's not gonna deal with his either. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, I'm, I'm interested-

Dr. Marc Brackett 59:01 So, anyhow.

Chris Williamson 59:01 ... I'm interested what are the most challenging emotions to work with? Uh, does it vary from person to person? I imagine it must do. There will be some that are more sort of deeply seated, our genetic predisposition, our dopamine baseline-

Dr. Marc Brackett 59:14 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 59:14 ... you know, predisposes us to whatever affect. Um, but generally, are there certain emotions that are more difficult to work with and easier to work with?

Dr. Marc Brackett 59:24 I think, in general, though, what we call the self-conscious emotions are the hardest to deal with. Because when they are about you as a human being, like, the shame kind of family, that's, that's tough. It's not like dealing with, you know, "I'm a little, I felt afraid of, you know, going to the park as a kid." You know? It's that, "I have diminished self-worth. Like, someone has made me believe that I'm not worthy." That's a lot more work to repair. The jealousy emotions, the feeling that, you know, people confuse... By the way, what's the difference between jealousy and envy?

Chris Williamson 1:00:00 Oh, I, I think I should know this. Um, jealousy is wanting someone to not have it, and envy is sort of about wishing that, that you were where someone else is. Is that right?

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:00:15 You get a B+. Um-

Chris Williamson 1:00:16 Ah, close enough.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:00:17 ... four. So, envy is just wanting what the person has, right? It's an, yeah, that's that like a, "Gosh, I wish I could have that."

Chris Williamson 1:00:23 Oh, is, jeal- jealousy's fearing that somebody else getting it is gonna take it away from you?

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:00:28 It does.

Chris Williamson 1:00:28 Hey.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:00:29 (laughs) For sure.

Chris Williamson 1:00:30 Look, I'm not bullshitting. I've spent a lot of time trying to think about emotions, okay? (laughs) Like, I, I'm really happy with my grades so far on this-

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:00:38 You're doing well.

Chris Williamson 1:00:38 ... fucking pop, pop quiz. Like, (laughs) it wasn't what I wanted.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:00:41 This is... Hey, wait, wait, wait, wait. This is not a pop psychology quiz. This is a real, you know

Chris Williamson 1:00:44 No. Pop as in I wasn't prepared for it.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:00:46 (laughs) Okay, okay.

Chris Williamson 1:00:47 You fucking, like, uh, uh, sprung it upon me. Um-

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:00:51 There you go.

Chris Williamson 1:00:51 Okay, so the self-consciousness emotions, why is that-

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:00:54 And so, like, jealousy is a big one, because, like, there's not a lot of control. You know, when you're jealous of, you know, that mom is giving-...your sister, your brother more attention than you, and you feel like they're- their relationship is stronger than yours. (exhales loudly)

Chris Williamson 1:01:10 Hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:01:11 That's a lot to work with, right? There's, there's a lot of layers to that kind of, um, management. And you, you really can't do it alone. It's the same thing with the shame. It's very hard to manage shame on your own. Oftentimes, we need other people to help us kind of regain our perspective.

Chris Williamson 1:01:30 Yeah, that's interesting. Okay,

Chris Williamson 1:01:32 I- I'm interested if there is a distinction between feeling emotions and dealing with them and what the line looks like between those two things.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:01:44 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:01:44 I imagine it must be difficult to, uh, regulate or deal with emotions without feeling them. Uh, but you presumably can feel them without dealing with them, and I don't know how much feeling you need to do in order to be able to do... Like, how do you start to delineate the territory there?

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:02:04 Well, this is an interesting conversation around, like, the language of emotion. So there's feelings, there's emotions, there's moods, there's dispositions, there's mental illnesses, and they're all different. So should we go there for a minute?

Chris Williamson 1:02:19 Sure.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:02:20 Okay. So an emotion is typically an automatic response to a stimulus that comes from something in our heads or something in our environments that causes us to, that causes us to have a shift in our thinking, in our motivation, in our expression, in our behavior, that's rooted in our entire life. That's the piece that I think people miss, that when we're experiencing an emotion, it's not just from that moment. It's coming from our entire life to that moment. That's an emotion. A feeling is just a private, subjective experience. You know, I don't feel like talking to Chris today. I don't feel like going to the movies. You know, that, I don't get a good feeling when I think about that person. That could be in your body. It could be your head. It's a little, um, more kind of this kind of subjective experience. A mood can be based off of an emotion or a feeling, but it's different because it's longer in duration and less intense. So like, I'm irritable. I don't know what it is, but I'm in a great mood today. That's a mood. You don't really know where it came from. It could be the weather or it could be lingering good news from yesterday. A disposition is something we were kind of getting at earlier, which is, I tend to be on the anxiety spectrum. You know, I tend to be more sad in general. I tend to be that kind of like, "Everything's gonna be great." Um, that's more your disposition. And then obviously, you know, depression, diagnosis, you know, those are diagnoses. And so I think people don't really know that granularity, if you wanna call it that, in the language of emotion, and that could be helpful for people to kind of just, just know.

Chris Williamson 1:04:09 Mm-hmm. I th- I certainly think that there is a, a difference, a difficulty with people confusing the two, feeling an emotion-

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:04:16 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:16 ...and dealing with it.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:04:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:17 It's like, "I'm feeling my anxiety." It's like, okay.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:04:20 Yeah, I didn't get to answer your question yet.

Chris Williamson 1:04:22 Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:04:22 So that was just my, I mean, kind of like being Mr. Professor for a minute to give people, like, this kind of nuance in language for feelings, moods, et cetera. You were asking earlier about the difference between kind of feeling your feelings and dealing with your feelings. And my point is that we don't have to deal with all of our feelings. Sometimes they just, they're ephemeral. Oh, hi anxiety, you're here for a minute. Welcome. See you soon. No big deal. Um, we get a little frustrated in a meeting. We're like, "It's gonna go away. Like, how much is this gonna really impact me right now? Let it go." It's when we feel like the emotion that we're experiencing is gonna interfere with our relationship, with our learning, with our, um, decisions, you know, with our, uh, performance, that's when you really need to regulate.

Chris Williamson 1:05:10 Yeah, that's interesting. Um,

Chris Williamson 1:05:14 I, I wanna talk about shame. I think that shame is really interesting. I, I, I, what do you... How'd you come to think about shame? Is it a meta emotion? Is it, is it in a unique category in some way, given that shame is often one of those second order things, that I feel a thing and I have shame around it? Um...

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:05:38 I would say that, you know, as I s- I think shame, w- what we would put in that, in the category of a self-conscious emotion. But I think the, the, the, the, the difficulty with shame is that we don't put shame upon ourselves for the most part. We are shamed by people. Someone else has decided that we're not worthy, and they do everything they can to convince us of that, and then we believe it. And that goes back to the gaslighting piece. I think most of the shame that we experience in life is because of other people gaslighting us.

Chris Williamson 1:06:14 Say a little bit more about the gaslighting thing. You don't really feel that, you shouldn't feel that?

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:06:20 Yeah, gaslighting is when... Essentially, at the heart of gaslighting is that the reality that someone else has created for you is something that you now believe.

Chris Williamson 1:06:31 Could you give us an example in the world of emotions?

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:06:34 Yeah. Uh, let's say, you know, "You know, Chris, you're just so sensitive. You know, have you ever, I mean, do you, have you realized, like, you're- you're just too sensitive?" And then in the beginning, you're like, "You know, well, maybe I am. I'm not, I don't think I am." But after a while, I've convinced you that you start believing that you are too sensitive. That's gaslighting.

Chris Williamson 1:07:00 What if it's true?

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:07:03 No one can be too sensitive. (laughs) Sorry about that.

Chris Williamson 1:07:07 Now, now that I am very interested in, in hearing more about. I ha- I had a highly sensitive people, uh, and what that means and whether you've looked into that, uh-

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:07:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:07:19 ... as, as something that I thought I wanted to talk about.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:07:21 Of course.

Chris Williamson 1:07:21 So give me, give me more on that.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:07:24 Yeah, I mean, it's like having too much self-compassion. Like, there's no such thing. Um, the... All of this is about emotional intelligence, at least what I'm talking about here. So yes, you may be prone to being sensitive. I'm a very sensitive person, but my emotion regulation is, "Mark, without it being someone else's decision, do you think you're being too sensitive about this? Do you think that, you know... Oh, okay, maybe this is an instance where I am being a little too overreactive. Okay, I can give myself that." But it can't be someone else's definition for you. That's just not cool.

Chris Williamson 1:08:05 I think when people, when people think about being too sensitive, what they mean is your level of emotional reactivity is nonfunctional in the real world-

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:08:20 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:08:20 ... and puts you on the back foot. Is that a fair assessment, do you think, of kind of like h- how some people think about it?

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:08:28 It is. I don't think it's the right way to think about it. I think what you're getting at is that that person can't regulate.

Chris Williamson 1:08:35 Hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:08:36 They don't have the strategies. They have allowed someone else to have

Chris Williamson 1:08:39 Oh, that makes... Yeah, no, I, I know exactly what you mean. So, um, uh, you are too sensitive is you seem to feel things and not be able to deal with them, not seem to be feeling things.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:08:51 Correct.

Chris Williamson 1:08:52 Right. But if you are somebody that is of the highly sensitive persuasion, it's almost like, um, it's almost like coming from a family of fat people or something. Like, you have great ghrelin release. You have a bigger stomach.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:09:08 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:09:08 You have a lower BMR or whatever. Uh, you, my friend, unfortunately, are gonna have to do more work to stay in shape than person from skinny family with smaller stomach, less ghrelin, higher, uh, BMR. Uh, do you see it kind of in that sort of a way that people who are more prone to sensitivity, i.e. feel things more deeply, both up and down depth, um, that there is, if they want to-

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:09:35 Yeah, you're gonna have to... No, I, I think the, the... Sensitivity is just one example. I mean, I have a friend who is a former tennis coach who has so much energy, she makes me want to, like, crawl under a blanket, you know? And it's like, "Calm down." (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:09:51 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:09:52 "Your energy is killing me." So she needs to know how to down regulate because of her kind of endless need to be enthusiastic and excited about things. I'm like, "Gosh," like, "can you calm down?"

Chris Williamson 1:10:03 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:10:03 I, on the other hand, am someone who, you know, I would rather go for a cup of coffee and sit at a wine bar, and sometimes she's like, you know, "Mark, come on," like, "can we get a little energy here?" Like, "Can you," like-

Chris Williamson 1:10:12 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:10:12 "...shh, you know, come on." I'm like, that's not me. However, as someone who presents a lot at conferences, I can't be, like, talking like I'm in a coffee shop for an hour and a half on a presentation, right? I've gotta get myself out of my comfort zone and like be the entertainer and tell the jokes and, like-

Chris Williamson 1:10:29 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:10:29 And that's draining for me. Whereas it's not draining for her. She could do it all day long, but, but she's draining for me. Do you feel like we all... It's like, it's, it's about self-awareness and social awareness. And so I... It's not that anything is bad. I just think that's a bad way to think about it. Like, we are who we are. People are people. You know, unless you're being mean and cruel, then, you know, be who you are.

Chris Williamson 1:10:52 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:10:53 Unless you're self-harming, be who you are. You have to learn that you have to navigate who you are in relationships and in leadership positions, sports teams, you know, whatever it is. And that's where the regulation piece comes in. That's where it's like, "Oh, I'm aware that I'm talking too much." "Mark, shut up. You know, calm down." (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:11:14 (laughs) yeah, I think what you are-

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:11:14 But do you get what I'm saying?

Chris Williamson 1:11:15 Yeah, no, I do, I do completely. Um, we are who we are, and sometimes the right amount of that is great, and sometimes too much of it requires a little bit of a regression or progression to some other kind of like optimal mean. How we want to show up as best for ourselves, how it's good to show up for other people in the world, nonjudgmental, empathetic, good listener, et cetera.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:11:36 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:11:37 Um, uh, and to also achieve the things that we want to. If you're a performer on stage, you want to show up differently to if you're a, a, a poet that works in the woods or, uh, you know-

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:11:45 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 1:11:46 ... a, a woodworker that's just down the street. I think the reason that I lingered on the, the highly sensitive people bit is that it seems to me kind of highly sensitive people are the hyper responders to the work that you're interested in.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:11:58 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:11:58 If they're very sensitive, then they're going to feel emotions, which is the currency that you're trafficking is-

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:12:03 Yes.

Chris Williamson 1:12:03 ... more than other people.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:12:05 Yes.

Chris Williamson 1:12:05 If you imagine whatever hi- highly sensitive person is on one end of the spectrum and a highly insensitive person or whatever that, that, that is on the other end of the spectrum-

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:12:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:12:15 ... I have to assume that the tactics and techniques that you're talking about, the sitting with emotions, the working with them, integrating them-

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:12:22 Yes.

Chris Williamson 1:12:22 ... fluidity, regulation, the insensitive person simply is feeling less. The resolution with which they are feeling emotions is not as great as the person on the other end. If that's-

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:12:34 100%.

Chris Williamson 1:12:35 And, and, and with that, it means that you are, as a highly sensitive person, not burdened, but kind of obliged in a way.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:12:44 Sure.

Chris Williamson 1:12:44 If you want to show up fully, there is a... Th- there are skills that you need to use and, and maybe more so-

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:12:51 That's correct.

Chris Williamson 1:12:51 ... than your insensitive friend.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:12:53 So to put it in, like, the language of personality psychology, um, I am one of those people. I have a high startle reflex. You know, I'm like... I have a fifth degree black belt, and I'm walking down the streets and, like, there's a big noise. I'm like, "Ah." You know, and everybody's like, "I thought you were the fifth degree black belt." (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:13:09 Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:13:09 Look-

Chris Williamson 1:13:10 Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:13:10 ... I am the fifth degree black belt, but I'm just afraid of my shadow.

Chris Williamson 1:13:12 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:13:13 I can protect myself, but like my... I have an, a very high startle reflex.

Chris Williamson 1:13:16 Yeah, "I'll, I'll fuck you up, but first I'm gonna jump."

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:13:19 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 1:13:20 Yeah.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:13:21 I'll, I'll, I'll gather myself quickly, don't worry. Um, but another piece of it is that I'm also high in a personality trait called neuroticism, and so I am sensitive to my environment. I am someone who is like a, a moody, then I'm fine, then I'm a little moody, then I'm irritable, then I'm not irritable. I just, I've been that way. I'm 56. It's proven this is my personality. For 100 years... Well, I'm 56. For 35 of my life, years of my life, before I became an expert in this, I assumed that was my destiny. I assumed that my personality and my temperament was just, that's who I am. I'm a person who experiences these emotions and there's nothing you can do about it. And then I did research on this, and I found that there's zero correlation between that personality trait and emotional intelligence. Why is that? Because guess what? Someone like me, I have a lot of opportunities to practice my skills, you know? Because I, again, I'm worried before a meeting, I'm like, "Mark, take your breath. Mark, think this way. Mark, you've got this. You've done 500 of these meetings." You know, I'm using those strategies and I enter that meeting not like this, but just like that. Someone who is more on the resilient side or someone who is less volatile or, uh, steady, you might say, um, or emotionally stable is the word we use in psychology-

Chris Williamson 1:14:42 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:14:42 ... they're kind of more even keeled. The problem with those people is that shit happens, and they may not have as much preparation as a person who's like me, the sensitive person. So again, it's not a strength or a weakness. It's just that you have to know who you are and be aware that the person who's more even keeled, all of a sudden there's a death in the family and they're just, they've never really had a lot of emotions to deal with, and all of a sudden it's like, "Oh my gosh, I don't even know where to go with this. I'm, can't deal with my grief or my sadness." Does this re- does this make sense?

Chris Williamson 1:15:16 Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, completely. I would say, look, one of the big things that I learned, and it's cool, it's really serendipitous that I was talking to, talking to you this week after the last week that I spent, you know, this was a full week retreat, uh, and I ended up on a farm in Sonoma County for nine days, and it's been incredibly formative to me, and to be honest, I'm still trying to work out what the fuck it all means. Um-

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:15:39 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:15:40 ... and it's a different ta- sort of language. It's me getting below the neck, not, not sort of above the neck. Um, but I realized, and I've known for a while, but was, uh, I think embarrassed to sort of admit it, that I'm also, I would put myself in the, whatever is one in five highly sensitive people category.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:15:58 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:15:58 Um, and I didn't like that. I didn't like the idea of thinking about my sensitivity because I didn't see it as a strength.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:16:05 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:16:05 I saw it, uh... It- it- I grew up in the most blue-collar working class town in the northeast of the UK. Uh, it's state primary, state secondary, state sixth form college.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:16:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:16:17 Played a- a- a- a sport where you're around men, working class men from the age of 12, 13, until I was 20.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:16:24 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:16:25 There wasn't much room for that to come through. I didn't have many role models-

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:16:29 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:16:29 ... of people who were integrating or regulating or being fluid with their emotions in a good way. And I think it- it hadn't been rewarded by the environment, and it's- it's difficult to deal with. So suppression for me was much easier. And last week, uh, having spent (laughs) having spent a lot of time like just-

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:16:48 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:16:48 ... you know, staring into the abyss of my own emotions and the abyss staring back at me and sometimes punching me in the nuts, um, I- I- I was really proud. It's the first time I think in my, in my life that I really saw the depth of- of my sensitivity and- and realized how proud I was of it.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:17:06 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:17:06 Holy shit. Like, look at how, look at how it's, uh, enabled you to show up for people. How... Not how dare you, 'cause that- that's very judgmental, but like, what a, how unfortunate that you haven't realized what a blessing it is, and how, what a shame, and I grieved. I grieved over the fact that I'd been mean to myself about my sensitivity.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:17:26 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:17:26 It's like, "Fuck, like you were so nasty to yourself about feeling stuff." Like, who says that you shouldn't feel stuff? Who says that you shouldn't do that? And, um, yeah, I, you know, for the... I- I get the sense that this is the sort of podcast that attracts people who feel things pretty deeply. Like you, you... Why are you listening to 90 minutes on emotions if you are not someone-

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:17:48 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:17:48 ... (laughs) it's like, like, "What? Anxiety?"

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:17:49 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:17:49 "I don't know what you're talking about." Um, so yeah, I just... It was a really enlightening experience for me to see, fuck, like that's a strength. It's a real strength that I have. Um, and I shouldn't be ashamed of it. So yeah, I, uh, I'm- I'm very pro highly sensitive people at the moment.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:18:10 Well, I think what you're really pro, not to put words in your mouth, is going back to permission to feel. Like you're pro allowing yourself to feel, and maybe that will help you show up for other people in your life as non-judgmental, as a good listener, you know, and as empathic- empathic and compassionate.

Chris Williamson 1:18:29 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:18:29 I didn't share with you the outcome of this though.

Chris Williamson 1:18:31 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:18:31 So what I find in my research is that people who had that Uncle Marvin, you know, that permission to feel, in adulthood, they sleep better, better mental health, better physical health, greater life satisfaction, and greater purpose and meaning in life.

Chris Williamson 1:18:50 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:18:50 So for those of you who are thinking, "Oh, you know, does this really matter? Is this just like these like soft attributes?" No, actually you providing the opportunity for people to grow up in an environment where they can feel and talk about their feelings and learn strategies to deal with them is producing people who are healthier, happier, and more effective.

Chris Williamson 1:19:11 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:19:15 Is- is it possible to be too self-aware?

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:19:22 No. Sorry. It, again, it all goes back to regulation. It all goes back... You know, one thing that we didn't talk about yet is this idea of being an emotion scientist about your life. And, you know, again, most of us are emotion judges. You know, we're not that self-aware. You know, we're like, "I'm feeling fine. I'm, you know, yeah, I'm ignoring my feelings. I'm thinking that this is who I am and I can't change." But the emotion scientist is always kind of checking in, like, "Did how I regulate that work? Did it not work? What might I do differently next time?" The emotion scientist says, "Did I really know how I felt in that moment?" Um, or, "Maybe I need to really think, like get on that app and like plot the real feeling that I'm having." So that endless curiosity is actually helpful, but it's not... And this is a really... And I- I'm glad you brought this up 'cause another one of the pushbacks... Remember the whole parenting thing we were talking about?

Chris Williamson 1:20:16 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:20:16 Well, another pushback that I get is, "Marc is trying to make a world filled with self-indulgent people."

Chris Williamson 1:20:22 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:20:23 And I'm like, "There's a big difference between self-awareness and self-indulgence." I do not want you or me or anybody checking in with their feelings 500 times a day. That is unhelpful.

Chris Williamson 1:20:37 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:20:37 That will cause you to ruminate, that will cause you to go nuts. What I want us to do is I want us to look at our lives and think, "How am I feeling in general?" That's a good question to ask yourself. But throughout the day, there are strategic moments, like when you walk into your office, or before a podcast, or before you go home, or before you're making an important decision, just check in, "How am I feeling? Is this feeling helpful? Is it unhelpful? What emotion would be most helpful to achieve my goal?" That's the goal of emotional intelligence.

Chris Williamson 1:21:09 That's great. I- it's... I wonder whether emotional regulation is sometimes a mask for people-pleasing.

Dr. Marc Brackett 1:21:18 I have to think about that one for a second. Is emotion regulation... Well, I think if it's an authentic regulation, right? If it's... You know, yes. But real emotion regulation, you know, the subtitle of my book is Dealing with Feeling: Use Your Emotions to Create the Life You Want. And I think that's the- the key element here, is that we deserve to have the