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The Lost Art of Reinventing Yourself - Matthew McConaughey (4K)

Matthew McConaughey is an Academy Award-winning actor, a producer and an author. Expect to learn what “Don’t half-ass it” means, the story of how Matthew got his iconic starting role in Dazed & Confused, how to see the upside during any crisis, why having a sense of humour should be your default emotion, McConaughey’s own version of his Lonely Chapter, when you should listen to your gut versus your head, why McConaughey turned down $14.5M to pursue something great, Matthew's reflections on the 10 year anniversary of Interstellar, lesson on finding the perfect partner, and much more… 00:00 Don’t Half-Ass It 05:29 Getting the Role in Dazed & Confused 16:51 How to Build Undeniable Optimism 24:10 The Importance of Humour 28:00 Deconstruct Your Successes 42:07 Fake Humility to Cope With Fame 46:55 The Loss of Anonymity 50:54 Matthew’s Lonely Chapter 53:38 Choosing a Good Partner 59:21 The Risk of Letting Go of Rom-Coms 1:08:39 Turning Negativity Into Fuel 1:17:57 Balancing Type A & Type B People 1:25:58 How Interstellar Changed Matthew 1:33:15 What Matthew Learned About the UK 1:40:52 The Price of Success - Maui Nui - Get a 20% discount on your first order from Maui Nui Venison by going to https://mauinuivenison.com/modernwisdom (use code MODERNWISDOM) Shopify - Sign up for a one-dollar-per-month trial period from Shopify at https://shopify.com/modernwisdom (automatically applied at checkout) Momentous - Get a 25% discount on the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom (automatically applied at checkout) SKIMS - Shop SKIMS Mens at https://SKIMS.com/modernwisdom (automatically applied at checkout) - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Chris WilliamsonhostMatthew McConaugheyguest
Nov 11, 20241h 48mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 5:29

    Don’t Half-Ass It

    1. CW

      What does "don't half-ass it" mean to you?

    2. MM

      Ah. If you're gonna do it, do it. Say what you can do, do what you say. If you can't do it, don't say you can do it. Don't over-leverage yourself. Don't over-leverage a decision and then jump in and kinda dip a toe. "Ah, I think I'll try it out." No. Think if you're gonna try it out beforehand, but when it's time to go, dive. Finish it. Find out. Come out the other side. Don't leave it and go, "Ooh, if I just woulda..." Uh-uh. That keeps me up at night. I think it keeps a lot of us up at night. When you half-ass something and you just don't know. Whether you failed or succeeded, got what you want or didn't get what you want, finding out and looking in, in the mirror and going, "I didn't half-ass it. I went all the way. I found out, and that ain't for me." Or, "I found out, and you damn right that is for me." That's a great place to get to. But the f- limbo of not knowing, if you half-assed something, the limbo of going, "I hedged my bet."

    3. CW

      What could've happened?

    4. MM

      You don't know.

    5. CW

      Were you surprised when your dad said that to you-

    6. MM

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      ... when you were gonna take a pivot in-

    8. MM

      Yeah.

    9. CW

      ... life trajectory?

    10. MM

      I, uh, it wouldn't have been in the top 100 things-

    11. CW

      (laughs)

    12. MM

      ... I thought he would've said. I was fully stabilizing in that moment. As I said, I called Tuesday night, seven o'clock. He'll have had a beer. He's already had dinner. It's not Monday, 'cause that's the first w- day of the work week. He'll be a little more stressed. Catch him at Tuesday when I say, "Unload this," that I don't wanna go to law school, I wanna go to film school. And I really thought he was gonna go, "You wanna do what?" Again, the family I grew up in, the idea of g- me thinking at the idea of going into film was like very Saturday idea, a hobby idea, (laughs) not a job. And when I shared it with him, the pause that he took, you know, another bead of sweat started on my back of my neck before he goes, "Well, don't half-ass it." Now, I will say this though. I do know now and I didn't know it then, I've realized it in the last ten years, the way that I asked him is part of the reason he gave me that answer. I really wasn't asking him. I called him. I said, "Dad?" "What do you got, monkey man?" I said, "I don't wanna go to law school anymore. I wa- I wanna go to film school." I didn't go, "I, I, I, I, I, I, I don't, I don't, I don't, I'm not feeling, I'm not sure about law school. I thi- I think wanna. I mean, I think I may wanna go to..." If I'd have stuttered into that, I think he would've-

    13. CW

      So-

    14. MM

      ... again heard me half-assing-

    15. CW

      I was gonna s- yes.

    16. MM

      ... what I wanted and gone.

    17. CW

      In the process of being told to not half-ass it, you didn't half-ass it.

    18. MM

      The way I asked. The asked, and he heard my own conviction. And I think what he had in that moment w- was what I think every parent wants to hope to have with their kids, is that, you know, we raise our kids to go in a structured form. "Follow this and you can get most of what you want in life." But what... And that can work, but what do we really want our kids to do? You want 'em to follow that and then bust out of it one day and not even ask our permission. And that's when we're going, (snaps fingers) "That's my boy, that's my girl, that's my child," who want 'em to break out. And I think what he heard then was I was breaking out without really asking his permission. And I was clear. I spoke up. I didn't stutter. My voice (clears throat) was out of my throat a little bit. And I think that was part of why in that moment he gave me the answer, "Don't half-ass."

    19. CW

      Do you think that sentiment carried forward into how you got the role for Dazed and Confused, that "I'm gonna continue to lean in. I'm on the front foot. I'm 10 toes down"?

    20. MM

      Yes. Now, how much that direct sentiment from that night when he told me "Don't half-ass it" had to do with that? I mean, yeah, it did have something to do with it. Look, when he said, "Don't half-ass it," he was... And I talk about this in the book. He wasn't only giving me permission. He was giving me a responsibility. He was going... I knew, I knew I was, I had his word with me in my future decisions. I was making 'em for more than myself. I had... I wanted to fail less because I didn't wanna embarrass him. And that was extra motivation, extra strength, extra courage, extra sobriety, extra like, "Well, let's find out. Go for it, man. Go for it." It carried on into other stories of other jobs. Time to Kill with Joel Schumacher, going, "I want the lead." That's me going, "I wanna find out. I'm... And, and, and Dad told me not to half-ass it back there a few years ago." You know? So if I don't go for it, if I embarrass myself, I'm embarrassing him. So that was also some incentive and some, some weight behind those moves that I made, some of 'em.

    21. CW

      Are you a brave person in that way, do you think?

    22. MM

      Um, I don't know. People say that I... I don't think I take enough risk. I'm told that people that, whose opinion I admire, think that that's my greatest asset, that I take, the risk I'll take and the bravery I'll take with it.

    23. CW

      And you still have a hunger for more?

    24. MM

      I think I'm a, still a chickenshit (laughs) man. I mean, not overall, but I think there's many things that I'm, I'm, I'm not fully assing. And I think there's many things that I'm still, could take further, that there's still many things that, um, more risk I tak- I could take and more bravery I could have. Yeah.

    25. CW

      Could you tell

  2. 5:29 – 16:51

    Getting the Role in Dazed & Confused

    1. CW

      that story, the Dazed and Confused story of, of leaning in, of taking that risk?

    2. MM

      Yeah. So, I mean, the initial one started when I went to, on a Thursday night, went to my favorite bar at the top of the Hyatt 'cause I knew the bartender. He was in film school with me. He'd give me free vodka and tonics, so I went there. I get there that night. He brings me and my girlfriend vodka and tonic, tells me, "Hey, there's a guy at the end of the bar producing a movie. Let me introduce you to him." I walk over. He introduces me to him. Four hours later, that man, Don Phillips, legendary casting director who was actually a producer on Dazed et Confused-We get kicked out of that bar. I've had as many vodka and tonics as he had since I sat down, so I'm not leaving easily either. And I'm standing up for my new friend who, we hadn't done anything to get kicked out of a bar. We really hadn't. We were just kind of standing on top of the tables imitating some golf shots we had played on similar courses in the past. So we get not so, uh, not so politely escorted out, and he's in a cab, or we're in a cab. He's riding with me to my apartment, gonna drop me off before he heads back to his hotel. And he pulls out a joint, or I pulled out a joint, start smoking, he goes, "Hey, you ever done any acting?" And I said, "Man, I was in a, you know, Trisha Yearwood video for a second. It was kinda more of a modeling job. I was in a Middleite commercial for about, mm, about that long." I go, "I don't know if you'd call that acting." He goes, "Well, you might... Come to this address tomorrow morning, 9:30. You might be right for this part. It's this character called Wooderson in this movie, Dazed and Confused. I think you might be right for the part." Now, this is 3:00-something in the morning, so 9:30 came really quickly, and I was on time probably five minutes early. And we were already pretty tuned at this time. Now, mind you, I get there, there... I walk in, they go, "Matthew?" I go, "Yes." They go, "Don left this script for you." I open it up. It's signed by him. "Hey, here's the part, Wooderson. I got three scenes in there, three lines. They're all marked. Check them out. I think you might be right for it. Good luck. Let me know, we'll call you in for an audition." I go away, I go look at this, these three lines. One of them was what I like to call these days a launchpad line, which is a line that sometimes they'll have in a script where if that character means that line, and that character's not playing that line as an attitude and, or a wink or a joke, if that character means that line, it can t- you could write a book on it. You could write a book based on that reality. And that line in Dazed and Confused from the character Wooderson was a line when he's leaning against the wall outside the pool hall, high school girls walk by, he checks one of them's backside as they go by, and his buddy says, "Wooderson, you gotta cut that out, man. You're gonna end up in jail." And Wooderson says, "No, man. That's what I love about those high school girls, man. I get older, they stay the same age." That line, I went, "Who is that?" Like, there's a book on somebody. If that's not trying to be cute, if that guy's not trying to say something coy and clever, if he believes, "I've got life figured out, man. This is my North Star." So that line informed who the character was. I go, I read for it. I remember the first time I got called back because they said the sound was bad, and now when I come back, I don't know if the sound was bad or the fact that I just needed to come back, was an excuse to come back and read for Richard Linklater, the director, who I did read for, and I got the part. Now, the role was also based on, as I wrote about in the book, who I thought my brother was when I was 11. My 17-year-old brother was already my hero. He was cooler than James Dean. And we had one day where his car was broke down, and my mom and I were supposed to pick him up from school, and he wasn't where he was supposed to be. We're looking for him. I'm looking out the back of our station wagon, and there I see this silhouette of this guy leaning against a brick wall, left boot heel against the brick wall, leaning back, lazy cig in the right hand, smoking, and it was my brother. And in that silhouette, he was 13 feet tall, coolest dude in the world, and just as I went to go, "Wait, there's Pat!" I remembered, "Oh, he's gonna get in big trouble for smoking," so I won't say it's him. My mom goes, "Who?" I go, "Nothing." But that image, in my 11-year-old eyes, were, that was Wooderson. So we get to the set one night, and I just go in for what's supposed to be a makeup wardrobe test, meaning put on makeup, put on wardrobe. When the director Linkletter can leave the set and gets a minute, he comes, checks you out, eyeballs, gives you a few notes, and you say, "Goodbye. I'll see you when I come back for work." Well, on this night, I come out of the trailer. Linkletter shows up, has a look. As he's walking up, his hands go out. He starts going, "Yeah, yeah, Wooderson!" It was, like, peach pants. "Is that a Newes T-sh- Ah, I like that. What's that over there, that tattoo?" That was a Black Panther tattoo. He goes, "Yeah, yeah! Look at the hair, the comb-over. I like it, I like it." I said, "Cool." About to say goodbye, I think. And he goes, "Say, man." He goes, uh, "You think... You know, Wooderson's been with the typical hot chicks in school, the cheerleaders and stuff." I'm like, "Yeah." He goes, "You think Wooderson would be interested in the redheaded intellectual?" And I'm like, "Yeah, man. Wooderson loves all types of chicks." And he goes, "Ha-ha, well, listen. The actress Marissa Ribisi is over here in her car. She's got her nerd friends in the back. It's the last day of school. You think maybe you wanna pull up and try and pick her up?" I'm like, "Yeah." He goes, "Okay. You wanna do it now?" I said, "Give me 30 minutes." I took a walk. Now I'm about to be in my first scene. There's nothing written. I've not done this before, but I'm going over scenarios. Where are we? Last day of school. I got some change in my pocket. I'm working for the city, sure, redheaded intellectual. Gonna go out, I'd probably speak a little Spanish, bah-bah-bah. Next thing I know, I'm in the car getting a lavalier mic put on me. I'm getting a little anxious, but I'm going, "Who is my man? Who is Wooderson? What do I love? What do I love? What do I love?" As this mic's getting put on me, I'm like, "I love my car." Said, "Bam, I'm in my 70 Chevelle right now. There's one thing I got going for me." I said, "I, I love rock and roll, man." I said, "Shit, man, I got Ted Newshut's Stranglehold rocking in the eight-track. There's two." I said, "I love getting high." I said, "Well, man, Slater's riding shotgun. He's always got a doobie rolled up. There's three." And that's when I heard, "Action." And as I looked up, dropped it into drive, thought of the three things I had while I was going to get the fourth, and I said to myself, "And I love picking up chicks." In drive, pull out, three affirmations of the three things I did have on the way to get the fourth. All right, all right, all right. Pull in, have the scene, try and pick her up.... Ditch the geeks in the back. Gonna be a, you know, fiesta in the making, whatever it was, kinda spoke a little Spanglish, blah, blah, blah, blah. And all of a sudden it was over, and a lot of people are laughing. And Rick comes over and goes, "Oh, that's great, that's great, great. Well, try it one more time." Do this, that. Did the scene two, maybe two times, three times, I don't remember, and finish it. I get out, people are laughing, I just had fun. I think Roy Cochran in the, in the seats, in the r- uh, Roy Cochran, the actor who played Slater, in the shotgun seat, he's giggling. I was like, he was like, "That was good, man. That was good." And I'm like, "Cool." And all of a sudden, I'm about to leave and Rick invites me back the next night. Got put in some other scene. Anyway, he invited me back every night for three weeks, and I worked for three weeks. Now, what I found out two years ago, was Rick also asked me that night on the sidewalk, "Hey, you think you'd be interested in Redheaded Intellectual Girl?" Is because Rick had a s- he had just noticed that night that they had a story hole. They didn't know what car they were gonna go, I think, pick up the Aerosmith tickets in, and who, and who else had a car. Pickford had a car and I was the only one who had a car, and I had a little, a guy who had a job. And he was trying to start to fill a story hole. He didn't tell me this till like a year ago. And that's why he invited me into that first scene at the Top Notch Barbecue where I said those three words, which were the first words I said on screen, which were the three affirmations of the three things my guy did have. And I think they came from, not intentionally, but leading up to that role, I was listening to a lot of, uh, uh, uh, Doors. And there's a live track of, uh, of Morrison at some Doors concert, I don't know where, I think it's in Europe somewhere, where he barks out, "All right, all right, all right, all right." Very aggressively. Not Wooderson style, but like four or five, "All right, all right, all right, all right." And somehow that po- I'd had no plans, but that popped in my head in that moment as being, let me take that version, just give three of them for the three things I've got for myself, but in a more laid back, cool way. "All right, all right, all right." Pulled up.

    3. CW

      How did it feel to have that positive reinforcement so quickly, out of nowhere?

    4. MM

      The-

    5. CW

      Both privately and then publicly after.

    6. MM

      Well, I mean, it felt fun in the moment, it felt good. And then it became public right there with the crew and the cast. Now, public it c- became a year and a half later. I mean, look, privately on that, I remember going, "That was so much fun." (laughs) I think, uh, I think, I, I think I was good at it. People are telling me I'm good at it. I'm getting invited back. And then the other thing was, I'm getting scale. I'm getting s- 330 bucks a day. And I'm working a job at Catfish Station waiting tables, and the most I've made there in one night is $73. And now I'm getting 340, or whatever it was, for doing this? (laughs) I was honestly, I remember going, "Is this shit legal? Is this real ******* thing?" You know? What am I getting away with here, man? Yes, I'll come back, for the pay and because I'm, and because it's so much fun. Um, and then, I think you probably known the story, five days in, my dad moved on. Uh, Rick and I were just talking about this the other day, 'cause his, his father just moved on few days ago. Uh, we were talking about it yesterday. Um, I went home, came back to work. Still had, going through mourning with my dad. But had that, had that sobriety that comes when you lose a loved one to death. You, you s- talk about sobering up and courage of the world, even more than my dad telling me don't half-ass it, him passing gave me some real courage, man. I mean, of, uh, looking at the world straight at, straight in the eye, and not being intimidated by mortal shit anymore. Um, and so it really helped me stay in focus on the role. Had a great time. Um, probably a little quieter than I was in the first five days. More to myself a little bit. Rick and I be- that's when Rick and I kinda became more friends than just director-actor at that time. 'Cause he was, he was the kind, person I was talking to about how I was feeling and how to deal with my dad's death. I finished that, I go back to University of Texas, graduate film school. On the way out, already packed up at the U-Haul, get the Texas Chainsaw Massacre job for like five weeks, which was super fun. Um, another under the table cash for to play that part. Unloaded the, uh, U-Haul and drove out to Hollywood. Um.

    7. CW

      (coughs)

    8. MM

      And a year after that, I would say it, when Time To Kill is when all of a sudden I noticed, "Oh, wow. I'm, I'm famous." Life, I've cashed a new check that I didn't know about, where I'll say the world had become a mirror. Uh, there was no more anony- anonymity. Um, that's, that was a whole new drug. (laughs)

    9. CW

      I think one of

  3. 16:51 – 24:10

    How to Build Undeniable Optimism

    1. CW

      the themes of your worldview that I've become familiar with is alchemizing bad times into good ones. Um, a reminder that things that seem bad can end up being good. And in retrospect, I think it's, uh, obvious and, and almost romantic-

    2. MM

      Right.

    3. CW

      ... to think about that alchemy in that way. But in the moment-

    4. MM

      Yeah.

    5. CW

      ... it's basically impossible.

    6. MM

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      How can people, or how do you have more of that perspective during a hard time?

    8. MM

      Yeah. Um, well, look, couple things. First off, you know, uh, I'm, I probably start off intellectualizing something that I know I probably should believe in but don't believe in it. And convince myself even to an extent to trick myself that, you know, to sit here and go, "Well you just tell yourself, this too shall pass." Okay, great, well what the hell does that mean? Even if it's true, in the moment you're like, "What are you fucking talking about, man? I'm in the debit section. I'm in a, I'm, I'm, I'm in a warning section. I'm, I'm, it, this, this sucks." Um, I, I think that how much I'm conscious of it or not-... my undeniable optimism and faith that this isn't how it is. And if it is, oh, so what? I- it, that, that, that's, okay. Well, then really, so what? (laughs) You know what I mean? What's the big deal? Two, it minimizes, I don't, I don't, I, I seem to have a tendency not to make a bigger deal out of things that other people make a bigger deal. Dramas. I don't like to create false drama. When it comes and it's hard, I am affected. I, I, I, I, I get the blues. I get sad, I get mad. I'm a shit to be around. I can't get to sleep. I got demons in my own head, trying to work, trying to work the riddle out. Why did this happen? That's the other thing that's tough for me is, I think that any bad thing that happens to me, my initial reaction is, well, what'd you do wrong to, to, to lead to this? Like in a relationship. Camille and I get in an argument, my mind immediately goes, "Well, what'd you do in the last two weeks to let this get to a point where you just had to raise your voice? Or she had to raise your voice, her voice at you?" Evident- usually there's some Ps and Qs that were not handled to get to that point. So, I like it when things are running like this. The challenge when things are running great is we all tend to think, "Aha, this is it. I found it. Bottle it. If I, if, if, if I realize this, I can maintain this forever." And the truth is bullshit, no we can't. But we can minimize it. There are habits that I notice of things I take care of in my life, health-wise, faith-wise, father-wise, husband-wise, that I'm c- know that if I'm doing that consistently, there's less valleys. There's less stress. There's less warning signs. There's less problematic, uh, "Oh shit, how'd we get in this?" So, there, there's consistently behaviors that I know can, I can act upon that have worked in the past.

    9. CW

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    10. MM

      Yeah.

    11. CW

      ... advice in the modern world, "It might not be your fault, but it is your responsibility." And one of the ways to unburden yourself is to assume that everything is. But there is a cohort of people-

    12. MM

      Well, it's an arrogant no- it's an arrogant notion, yeah.

    13. CW

      Look at how I-

    14. MM

      Yeah.

    15. CW

      If only-

    16. MM

      Yeah.

    17. CW

      ... I could have stepped in. Yeah, you make yourself the center-

    18. MM

      But also, the first side. I'm the reason that I stepped in shit, which is also an asset. Even if someone go, "You, why are you giving yourself so much credit for screwing that up?" (laughs)

    19. CW

      (laughs) Yeah, beautiful. Yeah.

    20. MM

      I mean, look, I think part of this for me comes from, we didn't get in trouble in my family for the bad deed, we got in trouble for getting caught. So, times where I can screw up and get away with it, I feel better than times that maybe I didn't screw up as bad but, but got busted. 'Cause I got caught, because I got busted, because I got myself in the pickle, 'cause things didn't go how I wanted it to go, or how I believed it could go.

    21. CW

      Is there something that you try to remember about the upside of a crisis during a crisis? Or do we just need to ride that out? 'Cause I think that perspective-

    22. MM

      That's a good question. Yeah, right?

    23. CW

      ... zooming out would be so beautiful. And in retrospect, if only you could give yourself the gift of distance, of time.

    24. MM

      Yeah. Yeah.

    25. CW

      And yet you know something hard is going to come again and you're gonna be swept away by the wave.

    26. MM

      I mean, for me, I think it, it's, it's an obvious dance of the both because you can't jump to the objective right away and go, "Inshallah. Oh, fate will have it, this too shall pass. I'm all, I'm fine." No, 'cause then you don't deal with the, the crisis. Um, I do have a good, I do have a pretty quick threshold for being able to laugh, like honestly start giggling when I'm in the shit. Because I've found that I'm able to handle the shit better if I just start, the quicker I start going, "Are you kidding me?" And I will, and I also, my, I'll get objective and remind myself things like, "You gonna die, McConaughey." Which gives me that, ah, so what, this is not as big of a deal as I thought. I also quickly somehow it comes in my head, "Not right now, but one day this is gonna be a great fucking story." (laughs) I quickly go to that, I'll, I'll, I'll get, I'll project forward-

    27. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    28. MM

      ... into those places that ease me a little bit-

    29. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    30. MM

      ... and at least maybe look at it with a good eye.

  4. 24:10 – 28:00

    The Importance of Humour

    1. CW

      Uh, but yeah, I've heard you say that, uh...You should make a sense of humor your default emotion.

    2. MM

      Yeah. Linklater and I came up with that in a conversation about 12 years ago, Richard Linklater. And we were just talking about how mad and angry and upset and offended people get if they don't know how to react, if they don't have an opinion on something. And we were like, "Yeah, man, what if it- it- would it be, wouldn't the world be a better place, be easier to get along with everybody if the default emotion, if you're not sure how to respond, was to..." (laughs) okay? Now, most people think, they go, "Well, that's insensitive." But that's, it's not insensitive. They usually think that means you're not giving the crisis credit if you can laugh at it, and I wholeheartedly disagree.

    3. CW

      Oh, that there's some sort of a tribute in solemnity.

    4. MM

      Yeah, that, that, that, that you're not core enough about it, man. Whatever that, you know what I mean? It's like, oh, you're not taking it seriously. You're actually putting me down and, and, and, just 'cause you're saying you're not, you don't feel victimized and you laugh at the situation, you're telling me-

    5. CW

      Making light of it.

    6. MM

      ... you're making fun of me being a victim.

    7. CW

      Yep.

    8. MM

      And no, no, no, no, I'm d- I'm trying to deal because especially when we talk about it, but if it's inevitable too, that's it. I laugh a lot quicker when I know I'm in an inevitable pickle. I have no other resource to get out of it, that I know of. So I'm gonna start giggling a little quicker so I keep my eyes open and figure my way maybe a, because sometimes the hard work and the endurance and the elbow grease, the work harder we were talking about, that hustle, is not the way out. Sometimes it's, I need to back up, laugh, have a sip of my favorite whatever, and dance my way through the raindrops out of this son of a bitch. Maybe it's not banging your head on the wall. Maybe it's backing up and seeing, oh-

    9. CW

      I love-

    10. MM

      ... I got a key in my pocket that unlocks the door I'm trying. I've been bloodying my skull along, over banging, I ain't banging into.

    11. CW

      I do wonder why, I, I like being serious, I'm serious about the things I do. I'm serious about this podcast, as you might be able to tell by the fact we've renovated an entire barn. Uh, but there is something, that you can take that too far. The seriousness can become a kind of rigidity, uh, as opposed to being dynamically persistent. You know, taking things too seriously, not swaying in the breeze.

    12. MM

      Right.

    13. CW

      Presuming that you like the things you do and you want to keep doing them, the less robust and flexible you are, the more likely you are to break in those ways. And I think that humor is a lovely bit of ballast that helps to balance that out.

    14. MM

      I f- I would frame it this way. Be very serious about sense humor. Be very serious about comedy. I'm extremely serious about comedy and I, I, I, I, you know, do I take myself seriously? Yes. But I also take ser- seriously the shit I don't, do I wanna know everything? Yeah, but I also take seriously the shit I, that, that I don't know and go, be serious about that you don't know that. (laughs) Be serious about that this is fricking funny, or at least it's gonna be. So I try to take the comedy seriously. So I think we can take sense of humor seriously and we don't have to create a new category of going, oh, I need to be lighthearted or care, more careless and carefree. We can just care more maybe about the validity-

    15. CW

      The right things.

    16. MM

      ... of a good sense of humor.

    17. CW

      Yeah.

    18. MM

      You know? Instead of it being a, a relief, oh, so let me, let me let go of the pressure here. No, that means it's not, it's almost like it's not an- it's not another bucket. It's in the same bucket of commitment and persistence and endurance and...

  5. 28:00 – 42:07

    Deconstruct Your Successes

    1. MM

    2. CW

      Talking about that balance between good times and bad times and the lessons that we take from each, heard a quote recently that said, "Every man knows reflection and introspection when he's at his lowest." Bad times, you can't do anything other than wallow in retrospective assessment.

    3. MM

      Yeah.

    4. CW

      Uh, but one of my favorite things I've learned from you is when things are going well, given that that's presumably what you want to have more of, may be worth deconstructing that.

    5. MM

      Yes. I, I, I, I, I, I wish I could more and I, I, I think more of us could all deconstruct our assets. There's a n- there's a, we, happiness, you can't guarantee it, but there is a science to satisfaction. There, you can look at habits that engineered less pain in your life. Maybe more pleasure, but at least less pain, and that's, that's a win. Um, I, uh, uh, I try to deconstruct. Look, I don't, do I write, did I used to write as much? Look, anybody who's ever kept a diary, when, what's the old sort of nostalgic idea of a diary? You go there when you're in pain and you share thoughts that you don't wanna share with anyone else of those reflection and... I did used to, for some reason, I don't know why, but would force myself to write every day no matter how happy I, happy I was, and I didn't a lot of times wanna go write when I was happy 'cause I was like, "No, I don't need to write it. I don't need to become conscious of it."

    6. CW

      I'm having too much fun.

    7. MM

      Yeah.

    8. CW

      It's getting in the way.

    9. MM

      Come on, I, I'm doing it. It's living, it's happening. But, and then writing Greenlights, when I went back, that's a lot of the consistencies that I've found, that I wrote when things were going well that I was taking some, for some reason, taking time to go, can I bot- can I try and bottle some science here to why things are going well? And I did find consistencies. Who I was hanging out with at night, what I was drinking, what bar I was at, what food I was drinking, um, how, exercise, uh, preparation for work, for school. Um, and I found things I was like-You were really happy in this segment of your life. Let's go back and look at what you were doing." "Oh, man, I, I had the, I had Og Mandino Scrolls. I was on them every day. I had some discipline where I was checking in with myself." "Oh, you were going to church on Sundays. You were, you were giving... You, you, you, you were saying, 'Thank you, God,' before you went to bed each night. You were appreciating more. You were pointing out beau- beautiful things and not taking them for granted." And so I found a list of things I was like, and when I get off track, I try to remind myself, "Ah, you've been slacking on some of those." And I could pull it off. I've evolved. I got different ways. I can get away with some now. But, you know, uh, I've definitely found consistencies and I think we all have them if we just notate them along the way that they're not by accident. 'Cause we sure as hell deconstruct the reasons when we're in the funk, and we don't believe they're by accident. We can take ourselves to behind the woodshed and show ourselves exactly why we're guilty for every reason and condemn ourselves for every damn reason we got to that spot. Yeah. Well let's, if we're gonna do that, I just say, let's, let's cheers, let's have a cheers on the way from the things (laughs) that are worth for when we have shit going right. Also knowing that it's not forever, that it will, we will have a mountain to climb here shortly.

    10. CW

      Isn't it interesting, so much of, uh, content that people like to consume, books, podcasts, autobiographies, memoirs, is deconstructing the success of others? So we'll happily dissect-

    11. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    12. CW

      ... success in other people-

    13. MM

      Right.

    14. CW

      ... and yet only dissect failure in ourselves.

    15. MM

      Yeah.

    16. CW

      This odd asymmetry-

    17. MM

      Yeah, what is that?

    18. CW

      ... where we bestow all of the glory-

    19. MM

      Right.

    20. CW

      ... on those people, well done, and I must find out how to do it more. Even if it doesn't fit me-

    21. MM

      Yeah.

    22. CW

      ... even if they're a different constitution-

    23. MM

      Yeah.

    24. CW

      ... different background, different time. For me, I'll focus on the negatives.

    25. MM

      Right.

    26. CW

      There's a really interesting, uh, stat around the likelihood of you ensuring that your dog completes a course of antibiotics is about 95%. The likelihood that you ensure-

    27. MM

      You.

    28. CW

      ... that you compl- complete a course of antibiotics is about 50%. So we're prepared to look after an animal twice as well-

    29. MM

      Yeah.

    30. CW

      ... as ourselves.

  6. 42:07 – 46:55

    Fake Humility to Cope With Fame

    1. CW

      complex.

    2. MM

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      This feels similar.

    4. MM

      Yeah. So, it definitely... And I think it's called, isn't there a term, imposter syndrome or something like that? When I got famous off of Time To Kill-I had more people saying, "I love you," and I'd only said that f- like, four times in my life to four different people. And I was like, "Wow. This is... They mean it." You know? The ca- the, the, the, the, the, the red carpets and caviar, I started to get that feeling, "Why me? Why me? There's other people that deserve this more than me." And that's back when I had a... I was using the word deserve, which I'm not the biggest fan of now. Um, I prefer earn. Um, but I didn't feel like I deserved it in the big scheme of things. Uh, it was a... I think it's a... We have to... What's, what's dangerous about it, I think, at its core, it's, it's a, it's a f- it's a coping mechanism, but it's a false humility.

    5. CW

      Yep. Yep. I understand.

    6. MM

      It's like, it's almost arrogant to think that you're... you did all of that even. You know, it's almost like guilt is an arrogant thing. Like, who makes you the judge and jury of you on that? Uh, who... You know, it's, it's like saying, uh... being very arrogant to go, "Oh, no, no, (laughs) no. Not me. I, I, I, I, I d- I shouldn't have that." Um, it does help you, you deal when the stimulus of the world's brand new and coming on you, it helps you back up 'cause you can't... you don't wanna take any more arrows 'cause you're feeling it all as arrows. Um, I sure felt that when I first got famous, um. Talk about all the options and yeses, brand new yeses for me in the world. I pushed against it, and I even had clumsy times where I got ugly just to counter it.

    7. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    8. MM

      Like I said, I wrote in the book, I tripped myself running downhill. I tripped myself because I felt like, "Man, things are going too well, I need a bloody nose." Bam! All right, I gave myself one, now I feel more. Okay, now I'm where I'm supposed to be. Does part of that come with the fact that I grew up in a middle-class, blue-collar family in Uvalde, Texas, 12,000 people, from a dad who was like, "You get out there and you earn, you break a sweat"? Probably. I don't know. Um, I, I wasn't f- so much stuff was coming at me, and I didn't feel like I would b- I'd broken a sweat to get it. I was having fun what I did, and I was... couldn't give myself enough credit for maybe just going, "You're good at what you're doing."

    9. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    10. MM

      And I was like, I... and, and, and I was looking for the proverbial sweat. I was looking for the, where's the exhaustion of a full working day where I actually... I drew blood, man. I did it. I made it through.

    11. CW

      Dude, the Puritan work ethic runs strong. I used to struggle. I, I ran nightclubs for a long time, and there was a period where I didn't miss a single Saturday, which was our big event, uh, for 204 Saturdays in a row. And I would go on holiday. The holidays I was having... You know, I'm 20... 22 to 26, something like that, so prime young guy territory. And, uh, I would go on holiday from a Sunday morning until a Thursday evening and then make sure that I was back in the northeast of the UK, but-

    12. MM

      Why, why'd you make sure you got back on the Saturday night?

    13. CW

      Because I couldn't bear to have success without having bled for it.

    14. MM

      Okay.

    15. CW

      Because if... it... There was so many hoops I had to jump through in order for things to... for me to get a pat on the back. Had to go well, 'cause if it went badly, I was less. But not only did it have to go well, I had to suffer in service of it going well.

    16. MM

      Yeah.

    17. CW

      Because if it went well but came easily, that was also somehow lesser, and I didn't deserve-

    18. MM

      Like, for me, I felt like it was a sin almost.

    19. CW

      Yes.

    20. MM

      Not a disease, but more of a sin. I was like, "I didn't pay penance there, man." I didn't... uh, I, I had... th- I hadn't given enough tithe. I didn't, like I said, break the proverbial sweat, draw the blood to earn that thing. And yet, I'm getting all this? Didn't... wasn't able to look it in the eye. Didn't feel it. Needed things to feel. I also needed, at that time, anonymity, which I lost.

    21. CW

      Yeah.

    22. MM

      And I think everyone needs an anonymous soul. And I had lost mine, and I didn't know what was up, down, left, or right. I ha- I got through stuff... Uh, if I look back at my interviews the first two years I got famous, I bet you they're so damn boring, 'cause I was... my two rules were be a gentleman and don't lie. Two pretty boring rules if that's only what you're going in f- in for and you're creative and you got a colorful life, but I was just, repeat it, stay down the line. It wasn't until later on that I was like, "Oh man, I trust myself enough, I believe myself enough to, to share how I feel about things."

    23. CW

      You know,

  7. 46:55 – 50:54

    The Loss of Anonymity

    1. CW

      privacy is one of the privileges that people are born with that they don't realize until they've lost it.

    2. MM

      Right.

    3. CW

      And, uh, this has been a little bit of a trajectory that I'm starting to dip my toe into over the last few years as well.

    4. MM

      Of?

    5. CW

      Loss of privacy.

    6. MM

      Loss of privacy.

    7. CW

      Loss... Increased scrutiny-

    8. MM

      Right.

    9. CW

      ... a sense of eyeballs, and even, you know, it's a micro niche degenerate version of, of proper fame, but still, this sort of sense of vigilance of being watched in some way or another.

    10. MM

      Yeah, yeah.

    11. CW

      And, uh, yeah, it's one of those odd inverted privileges. Most people think about privilege-

    12. MM

      Yeah.

    13. CW

      ... as something that is bestowed upon you-

    14. MM

      Yeah.

    15. CW

      ... after you have done X, Y, and Z.

    16. MM

      Yeah.

    17. CW

      But this is one of those things that, as you tend to go on the trajectory most people want to go on-

    18. MM

      Yeah.

    19. CW

      ... it's something that gets derogated. It's something that you lose.

    20. MM

      Sure. And you... People have... You skip the salutations of, "Hi, how you doing? What's your name?" People have bio on you. They have an idea, an opinion for you, before you ask for it. Sometimes it's hyperbole to the awesome, too overly aw- exaggerated awesome, sometimes it's well below. And you walk outside, you don't even have to talk to the world. You know. You feel eyes. You see how people move towards you or move away from you or wh- you, you catch it all in your periphery, and you start going, "They... I know what, I know what, I know what they think." Maybe that's false. Feels a lot better when it's maybe false but to the, "Oh, they even think I'm better than I'm"-

    21. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    22. MM

      ... "than I... They think I even did... think I did better than I did."But-

    23. CW

      It's still disconcerting either way.

    24. MM

      Either way, it's off balance because it's not on, it's not on par. It's why I headed out to Peru after I got famous, took the 22-day backpack trip. I, and, and I remember writing down, I said, "I need... I need to go test my, who I am, my character, on people who know me as a stranger." And when I left, the hugs and te- after 22 days, the hugs and the tears of the stran- no longer strangers after 22 days, but the hugs and the tears were coming from people that only knew me as a guy named Matthew, and that's it, who showed up and met me from there, no biography on me, had no idea I was famous, no idea I was in the movies. And 22 deers later, 2- 22 days later, they're weeping tears of gl- gladness and sadness saying goodbye to me. That gave me trust magnet. I was like, "I got it. I did this. Okay. I got it."

    25. CW

      I'm still there.

    26. MM

      I can still fix a tire. I don't have t- I don't ha- th- this whole thing isn't just AAA coming to fix the car. You know what I mean? Okay. It was a, it was a, that was a... I needed that. It gave me a lot of confidence to come back to Hollywood and look a lot of the, what I was deeming excess, look it in the eye and go, "I get it. I get it. I know I, I earned getting here. I'm still, I still... I got, I got the goods."

    27. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    28. MM

      All of this, I may not have earned that. I didn't even ask for a lot of this, but I know I got myself here. Okay?

    29. CW

      In other news, this episode is brought to you by Shopify. Shopify powers 10% of all e-commerce in the United States, and they're the global force behind Gymshark, Skims, Alo, and Nutonic. Look, you're not going into business to learn how to code or build a website or do backend inventory management. Shopify takes all of that off your hands and allows you to focus on the job that you came here to do, which is designing and selling an awesome product. And when it comes to converting browsers into buyers, they are best in class. Their checkout is 36% better on average compared to other leading e-commerce platforms. And with Shop Pay, you can boost conversions up to 50%. Best of all, their award-winning support is there to help you every step of the way. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout that we use at Nutonic with Shopify. Right now, you can sign up for a $1 per month trial period by going to the link in the description below or heading to shopify.com/modernwisdom, all lowercase. That's shopify.com/modernwisdom to upgrade your selling today.

  8. 50:54 – 53:38

    Matthew’s Lonely Chapter

    1. CW

      Did you ever have a lonely chapter during your trajectory?

    2. MM

      Looking back, I would say I did. I mean, look, I had some wonderfully fun and healthy and honest single years that were... Became sort of revolutions, that became sort of structurally tangent, and it was fun. Stayed on the surface purposefully. I kept it there. They kept it there. But I was still, you know, had many lonely nights when a man lays his head on the pillow, no matter who was in the bed, I was sleeping with me. And felt like many times I was in neutral. Didn't have something that I was building towards and chasing relationship-wise, even career-wise at that time. I got through it fine. I didn't, I didn't go overboard and overindulge and didn't get dangerous with my health or anyone else's. Um, mainly because if I did get to, if I did the blues, I'd be like, "Open your eyes, bro. Look around, man. (laughs) You kidding me? Take your time." And so, you know, I would say ultimately I was lonely in that time because I knew, I knew it was a stop, not a stay, and I knew I wanted more, career, relationships, etcetera. But I wasn't really fully committed. I would- I wouldn't- didn't have the, maybe the, the, the wherewithal, the, uh, the identity to go actually chase it and go, "I know what I want. I wanna, I wanna live a way to attract that." I did try and go, did have a time where I tried to go find it. But as I talk about in the book, I mean, I had a time where I was, every red light, who's over there? Produce section, who's over there? Every party, who's over th- you know, looking for the one, and once I was like, "Uh-uh." Had that great dream of the 88-year-old bachelor that I was with all the kids showing up. That dream gave me grace, man, 'cause I quit looking for that one. I did be, start acting like someone though, uh, that my target drew the arrow. I was, uh, I started acting like someone who had a wherewithal and peace of mind with myself, not needing someone to fulfill, that drew her to me, that I didn't have before that dream.

    3. CW

      You've had a,

  9. 53:38 – 59:21

    Choosing a Good Partner

    1. CW

      uh, front row seat to, to some, a variety of rhythms of marriages. Uh...

    2. MM

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      Your parents', yours. What have you learned about choosing a good partner?

    4. MM

      Oh. Well, I'm s- and I'm still learning. But... Friends first. I mean, did Camila and I become friends first? No. We really became lovers pretty quickly, but I res- the things I respected about her and saw that she had were things that I valued in a close friend. Someone who respected their past, someone who had a great sense of humor, but was never gonna lie to put themself to get what they wanted in front of me or take advantage of me, um, someone who, you know, was impressed with who I was much more than they were impressed with what I did.Um, someone who very quickly saw the best in me and was like, "I like that. Let's see some more of that." You know? And wa- and watered that side of me, as we talked about earlier. "Let's see some more of that. Let me set thing, let me put some more fuel on that fire so you can even be more of that. Why not be all of that?" You know? Um, then if you're gonna get together, I think this is a S- Susan Sarandon line when she was married to, um, what's his name? Tim... Who was Susan Sarandon married to years ago?

    5. CW

      An entire room of people shaking their heads.

    6. MM

      Great actor, Shawshank Redemption. Tim Robbins.

    7. CW

      There we are.

    8. MM

      They had a line that said th- that, "We have similar moral bottom line." It's always stuck with me. If you're gonna partner with someone, especially if you're gonna have family I think, make sure you got a similar moral bottom line. Because in... Look, Camila and I are going through new challenges now 'cause we have teenagers. Our moral bottom line, and do- do's and don'ts, and what's accepted and what we wouldn't accept had been pretty part and parcel up until now. Teens are getting like, "Well I'm a little loose over here." Yeah, let 'em go, let 'em go get that scar. Let 'em go get their heart broke, whatever that is. Let 'em go try it out, and fail or succeed. Let 'em go negotiate, free play. She's a little more... And so we're, her and I are working on that balance right now. Um, and it's a new balance having teenagers as they're getting their independence. But having a similar moral bottom line, um, you know, connected to bringing out the best in the partners is having somebody you're a fan of, and that they're a fan of you. Um, you call each other on your shit, or you don't have to call it 'cause a look says enough, and you're like, "Yeah, I, I know." Yeah. "That was me, bogey." You know? Or, "Yeah, I got away with that one again, no more. Cut that out." Um, and then what I'm learning now, or trying to learn, is that it seems we're essentially all, all... The- the person that, for me now, I'm, I think I'm essentially the same person I was, I was 19 years ago. You know, the same, essentially the same person I was when I was eight, 50, or one. But our value systems reorder as we, as we grow independently, and as a couple. Your value system changes for every parent b- when they become a parent, for what's important in their life. So you re- y- you're moving things different places on the chart, in the number one spot, the two spot, and three spot. But to understand that it also happens with- with- with us as individuals, and going, that we do change. And how do we, even by being essentially the same person that we fell in love with, we still need room to change along the way, and go through things that may seem inconsistent with who the DNA of why we fell in love with that person or what- what we love, or who someone was. But but know they're still essentially that, but- but give 'em room to change. Give 'em room to change. Also, the- the, um, the, I think it's a Springsteen line, you know, you don't... About- about sometimes you're running and the other one's walking. And it's okay to be ahead, but don't- don't lose sight. Don't get so far ahead that you leave your mate lost back there going, "I..." You know? Sometimes, you know, somebody's real healthy, the other one's on IR. But we're still on the same team. That takes patience by the one who's healthy, and takes persistence by the one who's on IR. But you gotta, gotta wait up to hold that hand to go, "We're still doing this together," even though maybe in this zone right now in my life, I'm flying, and you're walking. So certain things that I find, uh, well, she's flying and I'm walking. You know? And so navigating that and how- how we change as we grow up, um, and measuring that against who we initially fell for in the first place and seeing, well, they are still that. Of course they changed. Hell, I've changed. Don't wanna say, you know... And a lot of times, I know I, we said, I know I said, "Well, you've changed." I was like, "Well, heaven yeah, I've changed."

    9. CW

      I'd hope so.

    10. MM

      Yeah. (laughs) You know? And doing that with a partner, um, is part of the work, I think, of a r- of a relationship.

  10. 59:21 – 1:08:39

    The Risk of Letting Go of Rom-Coms

    1. CW

      Sort of talking about transformations, trajectories, pivots, changes. Let's escape Hollywood and go to South America and see what's going on over there. Let's escape singlehood, pivot into a marriage-

    2. MM

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      ... pivot into family-

    4. MM

      Yeah.

    5. CW

      ... from dyads to triad to so on.

    6. MM

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      I'm fascinated by the aggressive pivot that you made between different movie categories.

    8. MM

      Yeah.

    9. CW

      And that requires, I think, a lot of courage, and hope, and self-belief, and- and faith, in order to do, to let go of something good-

    10. MM

      Yeah.

    11. CW

      ... for the chance at something that you think could be great.

    12. MM

      Yeah.

    13. CW

      I think that's something that a lot of people wish that they had a little bit more fuel for.

    14. MM

      It was a big risk, it was a big chance, and it, it was no guaranteed return ticket. It was a one-way ticket possibly to, "I'm a head coach of high school football to this day."

    15. CW

      One-way ticket to a dead end.

    16. MM

      Or to something new. But a d- one-way ticket to a dead end in Hollywood, as an actor, for sure. Um, look, it's no coincidence that at that time, to have the courage to make that decision...I did have really cool things going on in my life. I'd fallen in love with Camila. She'd just become pregnant with her first child. That gave me some significance of like, "Ah, that's what I've always wanted to be is a father. Here we go. If I stick with it, th- this will give me a home base to feel secure in, even though I'm stepping away from what has made me, given me significance for so many years and decades in my life." Having her to sit there, as much as I knew it was the right decision and it was a 3:00 AM decision in my own soul, she's always been very good with me about going, "Now say it out loud and we're gonna do, here's what we're gonna do." If we're doing this, she's the one that said, "You could, this could be dry for who knows how long. You may not get work ever again. But if we're gonna do this, I'll be here by your side and we're doing it together and we, there's no going back. There's no, we're not gonna get, we're not gonna get nerves at the goal line." (laughs) If we don't know where the goal line is, we're not gonna get down the line and go, "Oh, I'll pull the parachute." Uh-uh.

    17. CW

      E- even if it's a $14 million parachute?

    18. MM

      Even if it's a $14 million parachute. Even if it doesn't work out and you become a teacher or you go become a lawyer again, whatever, this w- so making that a choice that was inevitable, that there was no pulling the parachute on, sure as hell helped with the endurance of me being away for what was 20 months. I learned a lot of endurance in that year in Australia, though. Same way, that gave me a lot, very thick skin for enduring something. So that 20 months was really hard. And I've said it before, that proverbial bottle on the shelf was looking better and better earlier in the day as time went on. I mean, I mean, how many, how many more times could I work in the damn garden, man? I'm like, "I'm not a gardener for life." (laughs) Not like this. But I gotta, I gotta, come on, man. Um, but she helped me stay steady. I stayed steady. My faith helped me stay steady. I did have a real belief, whether I was tricking myself or not, that there's, there's a bigger pot of gold for me on the other side of this, if I just out endure it. If I j- I'll out endure this summage. And it became a little like the year in Australia. I started, I got a l- I started to gain pride and honor with the longer the penance went on of being without what I wanted.

    19. CW

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    20. MM

      I started to be like, "Well, I'm not, yeah, definitely ain't backing out now, man."

    21. CW

      Yeah.

    22. MM

      "I'm six months in."

    23. CW

      Turns into momentum.

    24. MM

      A little over a year later, I'm like, "I'm a year in, man. This is getting good. Okay. Come on." And out of the blue, 20 months later, I'd been gone long enough to become a new good idea. Where's McConaughey? Plus, he said no to that $14.5 million offer three months ago. And I guarantee you that told some people in Hollywood, "What's this summage up to?" (laughs) You don't say no to a 14.5 million dollar offer. It was way, the offer's too big to get out, and he said no? Now when someone does that, you get a little more attracted to him. What, this, this, this dude's onto something. He's got his, his own program. (laughs) He's playing offense on something. He's not just regressing. And I think that also sent a bit of a signal, is my hunch, through Hollywood. And then, then the fact that it was just honestly 20 months, almost two years later. Where's McConaughey?

    25. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    26. MM

      We haven't seen him in a rom-com. We haven't seen him on the beach shirtless. Where is he? He hadn't shown up in front of our faces anyway. I don't even know what he's doing. Does anyone know what he's doing?

    27. CW

      Do you fear or did you fear, uh, not being sufficiently prolific, not being sufficiently sort of, uh, front of stage, keeping your name out there? What if somebody else takes that place of me? What if I become irrelevant? What if people forget?

    28. MM

      I didn't have any fear of anyone taking the place 'cause my place at that time was rom-com king. And I was sure, I was like, "I'm good. I've done enough of those right now. I don't need another one of those right now. I don't want another one of those right now." If someone steps in to take the place, (claps) bravo. I always like to say, "I took the baton from Hugh Grant." And then I'd had my time and I was like...

    29. CW

      Who do you think he threw it to?

    30. MM

      I don't know. The rom-coms are not, are, are, are not, they're definitely not as healthy of a genre now as they were then. We were rolling in the rom-coms. They were like, can't missers, man. They're, they're medium budget, 30, 35 mil, so the studio's not blowing their wad on the budget. They come out, they make good money. Studios make good money. I mean, all of them kind of worked. Even the ones that didn't work as well kind of worked.

  11. 1:08:39 – 1:17:57

    Turning Negativity Into Fuel

    1. CW

      There's that quote about, uh, "The ironic tragedy is that life has to be lived forward, but only makes sense in reverse."

    2. MM

      Right. Yeah. Ironic tragedy. Who, who said that? I mean, what do you think about all the life, the ironic tragedy, life is pain, and it just is nothing but pain, but so we, if just, if we can endure it. Like, I, I, my mom, I, I, I, I can't help, she's worn me down with her endurance of her prescription on life.

    3. CW

      How old is she now?

    4. MM

      92. And she is the ab- she's absolute proof of the value of denial if you really commit to it. She absolutely-

    5. CW

      A committed denialist.

    6. MM

      Committed denialist.

    7. CW

      (laughs)

    8. MM

      And it's not an intellectual trick. There's no, "Oh, I'll den- I'll intellectually deny it so then I'll talk myself into now I can-"

    9. CW

      Yeah.

    10. MM

      ... give me..."

    11. CW

      Don't fake it until I make it.

    12. MM

      No, it's bam.

    13. CW

      Yep. Yeah, yeah.

    14. MM

      Fait accompli. No, it didn't happen. "No, Mom, it did." "No, it didn't. I said it didn't." It didn't and she's not... You don't catch her in between the lines or off by herself realizing like, "Oh, well, it did." No, it's done. Non-negotiably done. Her favorite word is yes. "Well, Mom, how you think you're living so long?" "Well, I can't imagine not being here." Well, that's... Geez, old man, that's pretty good. I, I really can't. I honestly cannot imagine not being here. So she, she's beaten two types of cancers on aspirin.

    15. CW

      (laughs)

    16. MM

      (laughs) And we're like, "That doesn't make any sense."

    17. CW

      (laughs)

    18. MM

      And we have to tie her up and haul her to the doctor, the dermatologist if you get something on her leg. Because going to a doctor in her mind-

    19. CW

      Recognition.

    20. MM

      ... is recognition of possible sickness. So you go there, remove a cancer, take some cancer medicine. "Do you have cancer?" "No, I don't." And you wink and she does not wink. She goes, "I don't. I, I don't. What?" Anyway, if you're gonna, if you, if you're not, if you're not following suit, if you don't believe it, next question. That's how she is. And she's, bam. She's not playing a trick. She just does it. (laughs) It's a full-on commitment to denial. And it's, and it's awesome. She would not prescribe to life is painful and you have to get through it. She thinks it's... Now, mind you, she's very anti because she, she's someone who, like I said, I think I touched on it in the book, she had a horrible motherhoo- mother and par- and parental growth. She did not know how to be a mother. How'd she become a great mother? By saying, "I'm doing the opposite of what that bitch did." There's value to that of going, "Well, I, it, this sucked. I don't know how to do this, but if I just do the opposite."

    21. CW

      Dude. I love this idea. So I grew up in a very working class town northeast of the UK, famous only for having the highest teen pregnancy rating in England. A- and then it lost that, so it didn't even have that anymore. And, uh, I think there's that idea of food deserts in America where it's, uh, uh, areas in which it's difficult to get good food.

    22. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    23. CW

      And I think that, uh, Stockton-on-Tees in the '90s was a, a role model desert, at least for me.

    24. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    25. CW

      So I wasn't around many people like the person that I wanted to be like. And at the time, I think I was desperately looking like a thirsty man parched for water for somebody that would be that. But in retrospect, again, ironic, there were a lot of people around me that were people I didn't want to be. And I was able to plant flagpoles in the ground that helped me to avoid the catastrophes and the tragedies that would've awaited me had I have done that. So I don't want his relationship with his family.

    26. MM

      Yeah.

    27. CW

      I don't want the way that he drinks in order to be able to deal with his emotions. I don't want the way that he speaks negatively about all situations. I don't like the way that...

    28. MM

      Yeah.

    29. CW

      I think much of life is avoiding pitfalls, not necessarily expediting successes.

    30. MM

      Yeah.

  12. 1:17:57 – 1:25:58

    Balancing Type A & Type B People

    1. CW

      and a friend have, uh, had three versions of ourselves that we think about. So we have, uh, dopamine Chris, we have serotonin Chris, and we have cortisol Chris.

    2. MM

      Okay.

    3. CW

      And, uh, dopamine Chris is lean in, he's thinking about plays on the show and, and how magnificent and big it's gonna be and awards and cool d- money-

    4. MM

      Yeah.

    5. CW

      ... and stuff like that. And cortisol Chris is seeing threats and anxiety, he's looking out for that, that ambient vigilance that I was saying before, he's on edge. And then serotonin Chris has taken a microdose of magic mushrooms and he's playing pickleball with his friends or he's lying under a tree, looking up at the sky.

    6. MM

      Uh-huh.

    7. CW

      I want to spend as much time in serotonin Chris as possible.

    8. MM

      You do?

    9. CW

      Yes.

    10. MM

      Okay.

    11. CW

      I want to spend as much time in serotonin Chris as possible. And I find myself-

    12. MM

      Wait, where is serotonin Chris? Magic mushrooms-

    13. CW

      Yep.

    14. MM

      ... in a hammock-

    15. CW

      Yeah.

    16. MM

      ... hanging with his buddies?

    17. CW

      Exactly.

    18. MM

      Okay.

Episode duration: 1:48:46

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