Modern WisdomThe Masculinity Debate Is A Huge Mess - Richard Reeves
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
140 min read · 27,955 words- 0:00 – 6:09
What’s Changed in the Boys and Men Debate?
- CWChris Williamson
What has changed or how has the debate about boys and men adapted since we last spoke? What's new?
- RRRichard Reeves
I think when we last spoke, I was still frustrated that there was no sort of political space for this. I think people have become aware things aren't great with boys and men. There was raised awareness of it, but I still felt mainly particularly on the center left, that it was difficult to actually do anything about it, and that's changed. I used to say-- One of my talking points used to be that it was very hard to get people, especially on the political left, to actually do anything about this problem. First of all, we have to get them to talk about it. A, it's a problem. B, we can talk about it and then C, we can do something about it. And I can't say that anymore. We've got governors, Governor Newsom, Governor Whitmer, Governor Wes Moore in Maryland, also Governor Spencer Cox in Utah, all of whom have got pretty serious initiatives now to try and promote boys and men. We've got as, as I'm speaking to you now, two bills have just been introduced to Congress to create a men's health strategy and office and to help men with their mental health after fatherhood, right? The Men Matter Bill, and there are a bunch of stuff happening in states. And so I can't credibly say anymore, "You know what? No one's paying any attention to this."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RRRichard Reeves
I can't sort of say anymore like you're shouting into the wilderness. And I used to say like, I'm banging my head against the brick wall, especially on the Democrat side of the aisle.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RRRichard Reeves
That is just not true anymore. And there's some politics behind that, of course. I will-- I, I think it... I have to be honest that I felt like I was banging my head against the brick wall with Democrats until November twenty twenty-four.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RRRichard Reeves
And then there was an election, and then my inbox started filling up with Democrats. And then-
- CWChris Williamson
Because they saw how much they'd fallen behind with men, especially young men.
- RRRichard Reeves
I mean, peop- they can read a poll, and there's no question that one of the things that happened in the '24 election was that Democrats lost men and especially young men in a very, very big way.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RRRichard Reeves
And I don't think it's a coincidence that many of the Democrats I've just mentioned and that we're working with are very often also mentioned as potential presidential candidates. And so they've-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- RRRichard Reeves
... they've realized that we can't win without young men. Uh, so they-- I'm not gonna lie, I think there's a political dimension to this, but I don't... Unlike many people, I don't blame politicians for doing politics, [chuckles] right? So some of the more men's rights-y people have said about Governor Newsom's initiative, for example, which is a serious initiative.
- CWChris Williamson
What is it?
- RRRichard Reeves
Uh, so he signed an executive order last year saying, telling his administration to come back to him with comprehensive plans to help boys and men in, uh, K-twelve education, employment, and especially mental health. He's already done a male service challenge. He's done a call to get ten thousand more men in California into service, into mentoring, into coaching. Um, they're following that up with a big push on getting more men into teaching, like male role models in the classroom would be a good idea. And it was very interesting that the men's rights-y folks, if I can use that language for now-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- RRRichard Reeves
... although I'm on the more conservative side of it, they're just like, "Oh, he's just, he's just doing, he's just doing politics. He's just realized that the Democrats have lost young men, and so he's just doing stuff to try and win their votes back."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RRRichard Reeves
I'm like, "And why is that a bad thing?" [chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RRRichard Reeves
"Isn't that how democracies are supposed to work?" Uh, and so I just can't say it anymore. I think it's... There, there's real progress, uh, on this. It's serious. Not all of it's making it into the culture war, but that doesn't mean that it's not good. In fact, most of it's not in the culture war. It's not being discussed generally in podcasts or, um, or even on cable TV, but it doesn't mean it's not happening.
- CWChris Williamson
How much is it... Is it a good first step, or is this a really significant move?
- RRRichard Reeves
It's a significant move in the sense that it's the first time we've seen like serious political figures and policymakers making serious efforts to address the problem.
- CWChris Williamson
Right. Okay.
- RRRichard Reeves
But-
- CWChris Williamson
So it's a, it's a, it's a, a significant move in the same way as firing the first shot of a war is a significant move. It's the first thing that happens, and from that it suggests that more will come after.
- RRRichard Reeves
That's right. So the question is, is there substance behind it?
- CWChris Williamson
Not sufficient yet.
- RRRichard Reeves
No.
- 6:09 – 12:07
Do Men’s Rights Activists Actually Want to Win?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, exactly.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
What... You said the, the men's rights-y types-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... don't actually want to win. What do you mean?
- RRRichard Reeves
Well, I've just sort of noticed that when something does happen, something-- And there was very nearly a commission in Washington State, I've mentioned the governor's, uh, moves, is that sometimes what will happen with the folks, some of whom have been in this field for a long time, and I would say that they come at this from, yeah, a more conservative or sometimes even a reactionary perspective. It's like they tend to dismiss these efforts. They'll say, "Oh, sure, there's been an executive order. Sure, they're creating a commission on boys and men," but they'll put their people on it, or they don't really mean it or-
- CWChris Williamson
Are these people inside of government, the men's rightses?
- RRRichard Reeves
No, no. No, these are advocates. These are activists.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, like commentators-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yes
- CWChris Williamson
... YouTube people
- RRRichard Reeves
Or people that will be like-- There are various groups out there. They tend to be small and not that well-funded and honestly quite often fueled by grievances.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- RRRichard Reeves
Not necessarily illegitimate grievances. I don't want to be misunderstood. But I'm on various, you know, c-conversations with them. And I, I heard this rabbi, uh, I think it's David Wolpe is his name, on a podcast the other day, and he said something that really struck me. He said, "Activists are always psychologically reluctant to succeed."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RRRichard Reeves
Because there's something about your identity and your purpose that is tied up to your own failure. If you succeed, you'll have to start saying, "Great, we've done it. Now I have to find some new identity." If you've actually wrapped up your identity in the sense that h-whole of society is stacked against men, there's been a feminist conspiracy against men, no one cares against men, and I've spent decades saying this, and then suddenly people do start caring about men-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- RRRichard Reeves
... and they do start doing stuff about men, you've either got to say, "Oh, that's not true anymore," and change your identity, or say, "No, no, that can't be true." I d- but I think that's true for like LGBTQ activists.
- CWChris Williamson
Climate.
- RRRichard Reeves
I think that's true for like climate. I just-- Like, basically, people can't take a win anymore, [chuckles] right?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RRRichard Reeves
People can't say, "That's a win. It may not be perfect, but it's a win." It has to be glass half empty rather than glass half full.
- CWChris Williamson
I think one of the reasons for that is that people worry if they are too grateful for a success, it's not going to continue to push the purpose-
- RRRichard Reeves
That's right
- CWChris Williamson
... forward. It's the same reason that hard-charging overachiever type A people refuse to let themselves feel too much pleasure when they succeed because my displeasure is exactly the fuel that keeps me going and-
- RRRichard Reeves
Right
- CWChris Williamson
... it's not too dissimilar with climate, the climate crisis. Not enough is done because, well, maybe if I stop now, even if lots has been done, it'll slow down, or it'll reverse, or people will forget. So now that we've got the front foot, we must keep going.
- RRRichard Reeves
No, keep going.
- CWChris Williamson
That would be the more virtuous way to put it, but I also agree.
- RRRichard Reeves
Hmm.
- 12:07 – 28:31
Why We Need Better Conversations About Boys and Men
- RRRichard Reeves
that as a big fear. But I, I would turn the tables a bit and ask you, because you have been thinking about and talking about this issue-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- RRRichard Reeves
... of boys and men-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- RRRichard Reeves
... for many years as well.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- RRRichard Reeves
How do you think the debate's moved just in the last sort of two to three years?
- CWChris Williamson
There's definitely been more of a mainstream recognition of it. To me, I, I have to certainly sort of do a little bit of breathwork when I read one of these headlines because I'm trying to work out, is this lip service being paid to blowing with the wind of a cool topic at the moment?
- RRRichard Reeves
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Is it kind of like a disclaimer? Well, we did talk... You must remember we released four, a four-part series in Politico on the crisis of boys and men, by the way, all written by women. Um, and the-
- RRRichard Reeves
Well, not my piece in Politico, but yes, I take your point
- CWChris Williamson
... the, but they, they did the, the-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yes
- CWChris Williamson
... Christine Emba had hers-
- RRRichard Reeves
I know
- CWChris Williamson
... and hers came out, the, the, theirs came out at the same time.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Not one was written by a man. If it was why are men talking about women's bodies, that would have probably been an issue had it been reversed. Um, so I'm trying to work out, okay, there's definitely more headlines about it, um, uh, that I see in the press. I'm not tapped into what's happening in Washington, what's happening on the policy side. It would probably be good... I know that you guys are, are promoting it, but it would be good if there was a way to get that out more. The, you know, good news about men newsletter or something-
- RRRichard Reeves
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... um, to really allow that to sort of make people who care about the issues of boys and men not feel like it's a permanent losing battle or like all of their efforts, the best that they can hope for is a, a Washington Post headline once every three months or something like that. Um-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... we've got Ross Kemp just released a three or five-part series about young men. Uh, Louis Theroux's documentary just came out on Netflix. Um, Adolescence did so much fucking damage, I think, uh, when, w-with the way that it tried to frame-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... things with the language that it used.
- RRRichard Reeves
Not so much Adolescence itself, I think, but the way it was-
- CWChris Williamson
Interpreted
- RRRichard Reeves
... picked up by and interpreted.
- CWChris Williamson
Correct. Well, it was, it w- d- that's a, that's correct. Yeah. It was purposefully left up to interpretation.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
There was a lot of vacuum in there, and I know that at least some of the guys that helped to contribute to it... I, some of the showrunners I feel like had a bit of an agenda and actually did have some things they wanted to put across that I didn't like, I didn't really like.
- 28:31 – 29:46
Does Gender Politics Need a New Language?
- CWChris Williamson
so do we need new language to talk about gender issues then? Uh, femininity, is that, is that also a difficult one to talk about? Is that loaded?
- RRRichard Reeves
No, I mean, femininity is hard. I mean, feminism has become quite f- fraught.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, femininity actually I would very rarely hear being spoken about other than anybody from the right. Femininity would be pushed as part of a sort of-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... sundress and baking tradwife-
- RRRichard Reeves
Tradwife
- CWChris Williamson
... dream.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, I don't hear many people from the left talking about it because it's not something to be pedestalized. I would hear masculinity talked about primarily from the left as a cudgel to beat men with, usually with some sort of modifier of toxic or whatever. Um, so yeah, and, and feminism as well. Manosphere unfortunately, uh, well-
- RRRichard Reeves
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... it was, it was very quickly kind of... It, it... Feminism was something that previously in the past I think a lot of people think was, was, was pretty-
- RRRichard Reeves
Right. It was about... It was a gender equality claim. Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... very quickly moved into something else.
- RRRichard Reeves
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, actually, it gets increasingly quickly moved into something else when I learn about some of the factions that sort of birthed out of feminism at the very beginning.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I was learning about this yesterday. Um, but the manosphere was used to describe a group of people, not necessarily a movement or an ideology, and a group of people happened to all agree about it. So maybe the manosphere
- 29:46 – 35:01
Looksmaxxing: The Manosphere’s Next Obsession?
- CWChris Williamson
was never gonna be it. I've, I've given you my bit about the three waves of the manosphere, right?
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
There was first wave, which is pick apartistry.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Second wave-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... which was red pill, and then third wave, which originally I was gonna say was the gentlemanosphere-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... but I actually think is looksmaxxing. I think that is gonna be the third wave.
- RRRichard Reeves
What?
- CWChris Williamson
Looksmaxxing.
- RRRichard Reeves
You think that's the third wave?
- CWChris Williamson
I, so here's my, here's my theory about-
- RRRichard Reeves
Okay
- CWChris Williamson
... about looksmaxxing. Most of the looksmaxxing guys, if, if it sticks, 'cause it's only been around for six months-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... if it, if it sticks and it becomes even more ascendant, and it might do 'cause it's really memeable, if it stays, what it will create is basically a sexier version of the black pill and MGTOW. So it'll be men going their own way. If you look at what the men are coding for, presenting for, it's not for women. They don't care about women all that much at all. They care in as much as women can get them acclaim in the eyes of other men, but it is basicallyFormidability is what they're signaling.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
Height, uh, like unbelievably masculinized faces, which if you look at the evidence, most women prefer an either average in terms of masculinization or a slightly feminized face with a masculinized body. That's what they find most attractive.
- RRRichard Reeves
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
But men think about gigachad.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
They think about these protruding cheekbones. Insane jaw. Yeah, the mandible. They have that-
- RRRichard Reeves
Don't, don't people put... Mewing?
- CWChris Williamson
Mewing, yeah. Pushing-
- RRRichard Reeves
I learned about that the other day. Are you-
- CWChris Williamson
Pushing their tongue into the roof of the mouth. Yeah. So-
- RRRichard Reeves
Why do, why do they do that? By natural-
- CWChris Williamson
It's to try and create a tighter jaw like you're doing it.
- RRRichard Reeves
Am I doing it?
- 35:01 – 47:37
Are Men Being Written Out of Society?
- RRRichard Reeves
condition.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, what was that line? You know, I went and searched it. I went and searched for the original source of that line that you gave me two episodes ago, maybe even our first ever episode. Uh, uh, uh, uh, the, the modern family is a myth that makes men tolerably useful.
- RRRichard Reeves
At least... One that at least makes men tolerably useful.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RRRichard Reeves
Jeffrey Dench.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- RRRichard Reeves
And it's kind of... It's actually this... a good opportunity to say that, um, that m- masculinity, manhood, whatever w- our words wanna look, is always more socially constructed, right? It's a cultural construct. Same with fatherhood, right? Margaret Mead talked about the invention of fatherhood. Fatherhood is a social invention.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RRRichard Reeves
Uh, and it is just true that the roles, the structures, the scaffolding, the norms, the messages from society, like we have to make men basically.
- CWChris Williamson
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- RRRichard Reeves
This is what I fought Louis about. He, he pushed back against the idea that, um, uh, women are born with value, men need to create it. And, uh, well, what value are men born with? Women have this unbelievable capacity to make the next generation. What do men have?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RRRichard Reeves
What are they born with?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RRRichard Reeves
Not in the same way. And look around the animal kingdom, and every man needs to, every male needs to construct himself into something useful in order to matter and be a part of the... And is that a bad thing? Is that part of the drive for men to sort of push for mastery and conquer and progress and improvement? I think that's something that, uh, y- you have the choice between men that are driven or men that are useless. I'd much prefer the driven men. Obviously, that can overshoot and turn into very squirrely outcomes where they become tyrants or scammers or whatever because that's the same drive just turned up-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- RRRichard Reeves
... in the wrong direction. They can be lotharios, and they can play a, play the field in a way that really hurts people. But yeah, I, um... It's a question of driven by what, isn't it? See, that word driven is really sitting with me interestingly because as if, like, you're driven is what you actually feel is like you belong, you're connected, you're needed, you have a role, you have a purpose. And so sure, if that's what we're talking about, and that has to be constructed a lot more. I mean, I think Mead's right. And you've had animation on talking about, you know, the birth of fa- how we, how we invented fatherhood-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- RRRichard Reeves
... to survive as a species, right? And then-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Because babies' heads got too big-
- RRRichard Reeves
Right
- CWChris Williamson
... and women were either, they had the choice between-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yes
- CWChris Williamson
... being snapped in half or having a husband that would care.
- RRRichard Reeves
Uh, right. That's basically right. That's a good summary of the work. And so it's just true. Uh, and I just think it's incredibly naive for anybody to just assume that we can just get to some androgynous future, um, and that we don't have to keep doing the hard work of making sure that there is a cultural message to men. "All right, we need you. We need you to do this. We need you to not do that, sure. But this is why our tribe, the tribe still needs you." There's this, um... There are these cave paintings from, um, they're in northern East, I think, Romania, and they're, they're famous because they're some of the oldest, or if not the oldest, cave paintings that have ever been found. And the famous ones are the ones where there's kind of very violent, there's kind of stabbing and spearing and stuff like that. But the most haunting one is actually of a group, uh, clearly the tribe, and then another figure who's moving away from them.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RRRichard Reeves
And the interpretation of that is, is an ostracism.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep. Yeah.
- 47:37 – 49:28
Should Men Lead the Household?
- RRRichard Reeves
right? But, um, and I d- and I don't know how you think about this, but I've also noticed like I, I just did my rant about like the k- the anti-dad rhetoric of the left.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh-huh.
- RRRichard Reeves
Right? But I've also kind of noticed just, uh, uh, in a lot of these conversations, there's this kind of implied return to a world where the dad is the head of the household, where we're gonna reassert this idea of kind of gender inequality within the household, and I, I wish I could remember who it was, but you had somebody on-
- CWChris Williamson
Arthur Brooks, CEO/COO.
- RRRichard Reeves
You see, yes. Someone said that the mom, i- i- she's g- a hugely important role. I'm not saying... The mom's like the COO of the household.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh-huh.
- RRRichard Reeves
Right? And somebody else will say, like, "Men need to lead their families," right? But the COO one really stuck with me, right? 'Cause o- okay, so she's COO. What, who's the dad again? He's CEO.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RRRichard Reeves
Okay. So what you've just done there is you said we're going to go back in a way to a world where there was this implied gender inequality within the household.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you think that there's an inequality between CEO and COO when it comes to the household?
- RRRichard Reeves
I think as an i- or if you're gonna use that as an analogy, right, the CEO is the boss of the company, right, and the COO reports to the CEO.
- CWChris Williamson
Interesting.
- RRRichard Reeves
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
I think... So look, I think it was Arthur Brooks.
- RRRichard Reeves
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, have you got any more jud- have you got any more to say on that, on why you had an issue with it?
- RRRichard Reeves
Um.
- CWChris Williamson
That framing.
- RRRichard Reeves
Just because of that framing, but I, I'm hearing it elsewhere generally, more on the sort of r- conservative side of this argument, and it's r- here's what I don't like. It's very rarely stated explicitly. The explicit version of it would be, we need to get back to stable families and families where men feel a sense of purpose, and so we need to go back to a f- to families where-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- RRRichard Reeves
... he is the head of the household. He is the ultimate decision-maker. He is the leader of the family, whatever language you want to use.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RRRichard Reeves
Which s- wh- and, and therefore women are going to have to kind of recognize that they are, in the end-
- CWChris Williamson
Subordinate
- 49:28 – 51:28
Is Modern Society Becoming Feminised?
- RRRichard Reeves
Yes
- CWChris Williamson
What do you think about the feminization of society?
- RRRichard Reeves
Has there been a feminization of society?
- CWChris Williamson
Helen Andrews thought so.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yes, I know, but, um, well, it's interesting. I mean, Helen Andrews... Have you had her on, by the way? I don't think I've seen her come-
- CWChris Williamson
No, she didn't-- She-- I can't get her on. I don't know what she thinks of me or the show, but we can't get her on.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah, I mean, I did an... It was one of those things where I tried to ignore it 'cause it was a culture war thing, right? Um, everyone's talking about this great feminization piece that she wrote. In the end, I just did something on my own Substack about it, um, where, uh, I don't s- the fields she talks about, law, e- et cetera, they've only just approached fifty-fifty, right? Uh, for one thing. And so I just don't see the evidence empirically that that's driving any of the changes in those fields. What upset me most about it was there are some fields that are being [chuckles] quite strongly feminized: mental healthcare, psychology, social work, and K-12 education.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Two-
- RRRichard Reeves
There was no mention of that. And so actually, I'm very worried about the real feminization problem, which is that a lot of these occupations are skewing more and more female over time. That has implications for the people in those professions, the kids being served, or the patients, but also for men. Like last, as we record this, the last jobs report showed that three times as many women had gone into the labor force as men. Now, it's just one month. We'll be careful about that. And the reason was healthcare jobs.
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- RRRichard Reeves
Right? And so again, one of my differences with some of the folks on the right, political right, is that I'm saying, "Look, this is... The jobs are gonna be coming from areas like healthcare, et cetera, and so we have got to get more men into them." And that-
- CWChris Williamson
Especially with AI.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah. And they're like, "No, no, those aren't jobs for men. You don't mean to get men into men's jobs, you know, into factories and mines and stuff like that." And I'm like, "Oh, okay. Good luck with completely reordering the economy again to make that happen." But in the meantime, I see where the jobs are actually coming from. Um, and so I think that's a real problem. I think that the, the idea that, you know, the legal profession has somehow become less good because women are in it, I just don't think stacks up.
- CWChris Williamson
The legal profession's not gonna be around for that much longer, and certainly not in its current situation.
- RRRichard Reeves
Well, AIs are gonna-- AIs are better than men and women, so-
- CWChris Williamson
Correct
- RRRichard Reeves
... gender becomes irrelevant.
- CWChris Williamson
The, uh-
- RRRichard Reeves
[chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
... funny.
- 51:28 – 55:57
Why Feminists Need to Stop Demonising Men
- CWChris Williamson
What do you think about the, the feminism movement at the moment? I spend all of my time at, thinking about this through the lens of what's happening to boys and men.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So even feminism, for me, is a, a reflection of how is it going to impact the thing that I care about most. Um, not that I don't care about women-
- RRRichard Reeves
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... but again, like, I've got my, I've got my priorities. What's the current status of the feminism movement? How do you think of it when you come to think about its factions?
- RRRichard Reeves
It's very hard for me to answer that because I see it through the lens that I approach, and I am at quite a lot of meetings and conferences stuff now, you know, which would be described as feminist meetings. Uh, and I would say that slowly but surely, the women's movement or feminist movement is coming to realize that demonizing or dismissing men is not a good strategy.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RRRichard Reeves
It's happening patchily and slowly but surely, but it is happening. Uh, I'm seeing a lot of leaders in those spaces saying, "Okay, we have got to do better about the boys and the men." Now, you might say, "Well, they're only doing it for tactical reasons or political reasons." And they will very often say, "Because it's good for women," right? And so I have this interesting disagreement with them, and I'm very open about this. They say, we should care about boys and men because we care about women, and I'm saying, we should care about boys and men. I just end the sentence earlier than you, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RRRichard Reeves
Um, in the same way that we don't say we should care about women because it's good for the economy or good for men, right? Like I, I just, I, I, I think we should care about women and men more generally, right?
- CWChris Williamson
I've had to do-- I've had to do that too. The-- I had this piece about, um, uh, zero sum empathy, and I tried to legitimize the reason. It... There was a lot of things, and it wasn't just this. But I remember I, I sort of tossed this coin into the pool that I knew would be effective, which was if you, if you don't care about boys and men falling behind and also whine about there being no good men to date, that is the equivalent of sort of mating logic seppuku, that you are creating the precise dearth of eligible partners that you say that you and your daughters and your friends and your sisters are looking for.
- RRRichard Reeves
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like if you're not prepared to help boys and men, you can't go, "Wah, where are all the good men at?" Because that's precisely what is causing the lack of eligible partners that you're talking about. But I didn't want to have to couch good men are good in as much as they can be of service-
- RRRichard Reeves
Good partners, yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... to you as a woman.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It's just that, that we should care about the falling behind of any group.
- RRRichard Reeves
We should care about human flourishing, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- RRRichard Reeves
If there's a group in society that aren't doing well, then we should care about them. I, I just, I just think that's just, for me, that's just a straightforward moral proposition. Now, I'm also atten-- you know, I'm obviously different groups have different agendas, right? And so if you care about this group or that issue because it affects that other issue, I'm fine with that. Some people kind of say, like Melinda French Gates has, you know, supported me and Gary Barker because it's part of a gender equality thing, right? And she's very clear. She says, "It's not good for women and girls if boys and men are struggling." Right? Now, you might say, "Oh, okay," so this is where the kind of, again, the reactionaries will be like, "Oh, of course, she has to couch it as that," and this kind of-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Yeah
- RRRichard Reeves
... you know. I'm like, "Guys, for the love of God, she is a global feminist. Like, what do you want," right? And she's supporting my work. She's supporting globalism, b- and boys and men's work. Like, no, no, no. They're like, they're the purists. They're the ones who are saying, "No, no, no, she has to completely come over to our side." I'm like, "Guys, take a win," right? Of course, as a feminist, she says she's going to couch it that way, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RRRichard Reeves
That's okay. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
Do you find yourself doing the same thing?
- RRRichard Reeves
Couching it that way? No. No, and I, I mean, I do it openly with, with, uh, Melinda and with others. I was at Reykjavik Forum with the, uh, with, um, some leading women, and I'm just like, no, I'm... Like my position and the position of the American Institute for Boys & Men is just very straightforward. Like we care about boys and men doing better and flourishing, right? We just care about that, period. Now, is that also good for the economy? Is it good for families? Is it good for women? Is it good for... Yes. Yes, of course. Yes. Right? In the same way that the Women's Services Prevention Initiative, their tagline is, "When women are healthy, communities thrive." I'm like, true. Also true that when men are healthy, communities thrive.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RRRichard Reeves
But you don't have to condition it, and I honestly think there's a deeper point there, which is men in particular are kind of-Kinda see the conditioning coming. You see it like, oh, well, if there's something bad happens, like men, men do bad thing A, oh, now we should care about boys and men
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- RRRichard Reeves
And they see that conditionality. They see, oh, you only care about me if X, if I do something bad or something bad happens. And what they actually need to hear is, "No, dude, we just care about you."
- 55:57 – 1:05:45
How is Mate Value Changing Modern Dating?
- CWChris Williamson
What do you make of the current state of mating and dating?
- RRRichard Reeves
Well, as a 56-year-old man who's been married for my, almost my entire adult life, my-
- CWChris Williamson
Your expert subject [laughing]
- RRRichard Reeves
[laughing] I, fortunately, I have three sons in their 20s at various stages. That helps. Uh, and a bunch of, uh, bunch of younger friends. I mean, I do, um... I, I... It comes back to a bit to this politicization point, which is I worry that the message that young women are getting from the left is, "Life's really tough for women now, and it's the fault of all those men and the patriarchy." And the, the message that young men are getting from the right is, "Life's pretty tough for young men right now, and it's the fault of all those woke feminists and those women." So they're being, they're being encouraged, respectively, to blame each other for their real problems. That is a colossal waste of political energy and not true. It is also creating some difficulties, I think, around dating, mating, et cetera, because we do see now that that political polarization is affecting dating and mating. I worry a lot, and Dan Cox has written for us on this, that you see this decline in dating in high school and among kind of young ad- young adults, and that's a huge problem-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- RRRichard Reeves
... because that's where you develop the relational skills, the ability to endure and deliver rejection gracefully, et cetera. I worry a lot about that. But I also worry that, and maybe this is something we could talk about, that the... there's something about the marketplace mate value evo psych stuff-
- CWChris Williamson
I know you're very interested in
- RRRichard Reeves
... that I'm very interested in. I, if it provides my... Paul Eastwick has a book out called Bonded by Evolution.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh.
- RRRichard Reeves
Do you know his stuff? Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I had him on the show.
- RRRichard Reeves
Oh, you did.
- CWChris Williamson
We had a long debate.
- RRRichard Reeves
Right. And I'm not going full Eastwick on you here.
- CWChris Williamson
Please don't.
- RRRichard Reeves
But I do find that something... Here's the bit I do like about it, like, is that if we're serious about thinking about kind of ancestral mating patterns, we do have to take seriously the fact that we didn't live in cities of 10 million people with a phone.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RRRichard Reeves
Right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RRRichard Reeves
That, that wasn't the marketplace we faced. We were in smaller groups, so maybe you've done this with him, smaller groups, and we kind of would know these people-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- RRRichard Reeves
... and they'd kind of come with us, and, and that whole idea of kind of mate value doesn't... do-does shift a little bit over time. And so my middle ground here is that it's clearly insane not to suggest that there isn't something a, you know, quasi-market or a mate value thing going on. But there's also something quite interesting about this idea that kind of knowing somebody or someone being known by the people among you, becoming socially sanctioned-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- RRRichard Reeves
... like someone you meet through the workplace, friend of a friend, et cetera.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- RRRichard Reeves
That that's very powerful as opposed to someone you just algorithmically got attached to on an app on the other side of New York.
- CWChris Williamson
I don't think it-
- RRRichard Reeves
That's, that's not, that's not how we evolved.
- CWChris Williamson
I agree.
- RRRichard Reeves
Right?
- 1:05:45 – 1:20:21
Are Working Women Changing Fertility Rates?
- CWChris Williamson
Anyway, okay.
- RRRichard Reeves
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
So mating and dating, some problems.
- RRRichard Reeves
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Some people have argued that women entering the workforce has caused fertility rates to drop.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
What's your perspective there?
- RRRichard Reeves
Didn't you have someone say that? I feel like I've heard someone say that on your-
- CWChris Williamson
Dani Szulakowski-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... definitely pushing back against a lot of what-
- RRRichard Reeves
She implied
- CWChris Williamson
... women are doing at the moment. I think she implied it. I don't know whether she's-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah, I think she did. I think, well, and I've definitely heard other people say it, which is this, this idea. And again, this is, this is a great example of this category of claim that feels intuitive-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- RRRichard Reeves
... fits with your priors, and is wrong. Uh, and so you just gotta... Those are the ones I always worry. So if someone brings a claim to me and I'm like, "Yeah, that feels true."
- CWChris Williamson
It's done then.
- RRRichard Reeves
A- a- and as it happens, I was thinking that myself. I... That's when I always like triple check it because it worries me. And there is this claim that the fertility decline is being caused by the entry of women into the workforce, right? Again, that sounds perfectly plausible, right? Like women are too busy earning to be sprogging, right? Can't do two things at once, et cetera. And so but you look at the data and you look at from the period from 1975 to 2005, the labor force participation rate of women went up by 20 percentage points.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- RRRichard Reeves
Right? Absolutely massive. Like that was a huge period of like growth. And over the same time period, the total fertility rate went from 1.8 to 2.1 rough, right? Something like that, right? This is just, this is me and Claude figuring this out, so hands above the table.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RRRichard Reeves
Haven't done a peer reviewed academic article on this. But... And then the women's labor force participation leveled out. It's basically been pretty flat since, and then it just had a, a little bit of a spike post-COVID.
- CWChris Williamson
Leveled out since when?
- RRRichard Reeves
Since about 2007.
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- RRRichard Reeves
2005, 2007. I mean, it's just, just drifting up. So it went and then like that, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RRRichard Reeves
Uh, unlike in other countries actually where it continued to go up, and that's when the fertility rate really went down in, in the US. And so it just... it seems to me there's gotta be-Something else going on here. And the fertility rate conversation, I know you're very interested in this. You just had Steven on again, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- RRRichard Reeves
Um, the fertility rate conversation is a great example of where people take their priors and explain the fertility rate based on what they already thought.
- 1:20:21 – 1:27:15
Are We Waiting Too Long to Have Families?
- RRRichard Reeves
passed on.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you hear many women saying that? Is that a popular topic that's being pushed much at the moment?
- RRRichard Reeves
Uh, th- there I will have to plead ignorance.
- CWChris Williamson
I-
- RRRichard Reeves
But I, but I, I'm just saying as a general point, cultures learn if they're free. And so if it's not working out for people, people will see that it's not working out for people, and they'll do it differently.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I, I think-
- RRRichard Reeves
That's how progress happens
- CWChris Williamson
... I, I would love that to be the case. I would really love for there to be, uh, at least parity between the different types of life paths that people can take.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And at the moment it doesn't feel that way. If you look in the media or if you look in popular culture or if you look in music. You know, there's a, a really fascinating song by Kelsea Ballerini, and it's called I Sit in Parks.
- RRRichard Reeves
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, and what she talks about is she was in a, a long-term relationship. She was 30, her partner was 37, and he was ready to have kids. She said she wanted to freeze her eggs, and that was her gift to her and him on her 30th birthday because she wanted to go and chase her music. She wanted to go and play music and do this tour. And he said, "I'm ready to have kids now. If we're not ready to have kids now, I'm gonna move on." She said, "I'm not." He moved on. And then this song and the album, the EP, got released two or three years later, and it's a story about her sitting in the park and watching this family, this mother and father, and she sits on the bench, and she rips her vape, and she says, "Rolling Stone is telling me that I'm doing all the right things, but I wonder if I've left it too late to be a mother. I chose to do the damn tour instead of going back. So I take my Lexapro, and I, I make my next song." And she's watching this family sort of have a, a wonderful Saturday morning to, to themselves and wondering whether or not she's made the wrong decision. That was so fucking shocking, and she's a country artist anyway.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah, I know who she is.
- CWChris Williamson
But that was so, so fucking shocking. And the comments are filled with women who agree, but that is not-
- RRRichard Reeves
I'm saying what's the equivalent song from the parents, who are obviously... Like, everyone's glamorized there, right? So the parents' song is like, "God, I wish I could've gotten up late like her and had time to make myself up and w- uh, have a dress and have... Be free." Maybe the, maybe the mom is looking at her thinking like, "Why didn't I have kids with this guy when I could be like her on a sw-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- RRRichard Reeves
... on a swing in a gray dress," right?
- CWChris Williamson
The grass, the grass is always greener-
- RRRichard Reeves
Right
- CWChris Williamson
... when you've got optionality.
- RRRichard Reeves
And, and also, like, she probably got a good night's sleep kind of l- last night.
- CWChris Williamson
[laughs]
- RRRichard Reeves
I remember, like, when, when our, when, when our kids were really young, we kind of lived on this flat in, uh, in Belsize Park in London. [laughs] And I would, you know, get a... I did the early shift like a lot of dads did, right? And I remember, like, I would... I, my wife would be sleeping, and I'd be there with the ki- the kids, both. We had two under three at one point. And I... And I would wait. Dawn would break. I'd be tired. My third cup... And then this gay couple, these gay guys lived opposite us, right? The other side of the street, you can't refer to them as gay.
- CWChris Williamson
You're talking about my gay guys.
- RRRichard Reeves
Right. [laughs] My... I, I watched, I watched the... They would get up. They had lovely bathrobes. They'd make a coffee.
- CWChris Williamson
That they did.
- RRRichard Reeves
Great coffee machine.
- CWChris Williamson
Hang on. You were watching two gay guys through the window.
- RRRichard Reeves
[laughs] Listen, it's like a long night, okay? And I'm just out watching them.
- CWChris Williamson
[laughs]
- 1:27:15 – 1:30:37
Why Paternity is So Important
- CWChris Williamson
What happened with this debate between Scott Galloway and Derek Thompson?
- RRRichard Reeves
Did you see it?
- CWChris Williamson
I didn't, I didn't know that this happened.
- RRRichard Reeves
Oh, you didn't see it, okay.
- CWChris Williamson
No.
- RRRichard Reeves
Well, it kind of went, uh, partly 'cause I know them both and Scott's on our advisory board, as I mentioned. Um, so, uh, Derek Thompson came back from paternity leave, and it was actually the first thing he did, uh, was go on Scott Galloway's podcast. I think he said, "It's not just like the first day back, it's the first hour back." And he'd been, I think, on paternity leave for a couple of months, and that just triggered this debate where Scott said, uh, "You're just back from paternity leave. How, you know, how are you doing?" He goes, "Oh, I'm finding my way back. I won't be as coherent as usual." Of course, Derek was incredibly coherent. Um, uh, and Scott just said, "Well, honestly, I don't understand this whole paternity leave thing or even why men should go to the births. I don't think men should be at the births. It's disgusting. Uh, the men should be outside smoking cigarettes like the old days, and then they should go back to work. Um, I just think it's ridiculous," uh, basically. And Derek was like, "Uh, well, actually, men do need to take time, time off to kind of be with their kids because otherwise, like women are the only ones doing it, and you'll have gender inequality in the workplace." Right? What I found interesting about that, and I haven't, like, said anything about this publicly yet, but it's like I think they were both wrong. I think that Scott was wrong in suggesting that men and dads are of no use in the kind of early months. They are of a different use to moms, for sure, but they're very often the main allo-parent now, right? They're very often the kind of one that's around, and they very often are the one that's, like, getting stuff done. They're like... Have you heard of the owl monkeys who are, like, the best dads in the, in the n- natural world, apparently? No. Owl monkeys, right. Where the dads are kind of around all the time, and basically moms are doing the breastfeeding and the nurturing. Dads are doing everything else, right? Dad is getting shit done, right? He's getting the food. He's getting organized. He's right... He's around, but he's still around them, right? That's kind of how it is, I think. That was certainly my experience, right? So you're not gonna... You can't do what mom's doing.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RRRichard Reeves
At that point, you also don't feel the same way that mom does about the baby.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RRRichard Reeves
You just can't, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RRRichard Reeves
Just can't. You're not wired to at that point. Um, so you're still useful. So Scott was wrong about that. Um, but I didn't like the way Derek framed this as, as, like men should take time off so that women aren't the only ones taking time off, so that we can get close to the gender pay gap. He, he framed it as a gender equity issue.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, right, okay.
- RRRichard Reeves
Right? And I, I... My view is dads should actually be able to take time off and should take time off for their kids, not just when they're young, et cetera. Not because they can do what moms do, nor in support of gender equality, but because dads are awesome, and kids are awesome, and kids do really well with their dads around them, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- RRRichard Reeves
So I don't, I, I don't, I don't want to be the deputy, the kind of malfunctioning mom, the kind of, "Oh, if only you could be a mom." Like, no, no, dads are amazing. And so I'm, I'm really pushing for this idea that kind of fell between those two stools. So, like, the old idea of, like, dads just go back to work, smoke a cigar, have a cigar. I think he meant cigar, actually, but have a cigar, a whiskey, back to work. And Derek's thing is like, "No, if you're a good gender egalitarian, you've got to take time off."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RRRichard Reeves
Right? Even if you hate it and you suck at it, right?
- CWChris Williamson
[laughs]
- RRRichard Reeves
Because that's the way to get gender equality. [laughs] I'm like, "Guys, guys, what about just saying dads are cool?"
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RRRichard Reeves
And being a da- and, and the way dads are with their kids is a bit different to moms on average, in many ways, amazing. So I want like a, again, a pro-dad argument [laughs] rather than a gender equality argument for fathering.
- 1:30:37 – 1:36:49
Should Fathers Be in the Delivery Room?
- CWChris Williamson
Should dads be in the birthing room?
- RRRichard Reeves
The evidence... And actually interesting, Darby Saxbe, who I mentioned earlier, Dad Brain, she did write a response, uh, to, to this kind of thing, which people can find. And she kind of rightly pointed out that actually the evidence on how the unprecedented trial of dads being in the birthing room, uh, is going is really mixed. We don't know. And actually kind of sometimes in surveys afterwards, like moms have mixed feelings about it. If the birth doesn't go well, I think you talked to Anna Machin about this, it can be quite traumatizing for the dad. So I think, uh, look, I'm, I might get in trouble for saying this now, but I think that we have to be honest and say the evidence is a little bit mixed, and I think it shouldn't, shouldn't be like... You shouldn't be shamed for doing it or shamed for not doing it. And moms, by the way, should also feel... Like if they feel that they'll be better off with their mom or their friend or kind of somebody else, they should feel okay saying that to their partner too, for the actual birth, right? That's just-
- CWChris Williamson
Neither are obliged to-
- RRRichard Reeves
I don't... Yeah, the sort of, uh, 'cause as, as Darby points out, we've never done this before, right? This is completely unprecedented.
- CWChris Williamson
How long have men been in the birthing room?
- RRRichard Reeves
Maybe about 30, 40 years. Actually, I-
- CWChris Williamson
No way
- RRRichard Reeves
... I shared this with my, with my [laughs] wife. I said, "Did... Those things blew up." And she said, "Oh, Scott says that men shouldn't even be in the birthing room." She said, "Yeah, I probably wish you hadn't been."What? I said, "What?" It's like 25 year- 25 years later. I said, "What?" I said, "I go, no, you're-"
- CWChris Williamson
I thought it was really useful
- RRRichard Reeves
... today, no, but I said, "Look, you're-"
- CWChris Williamson
What about all of my words of encouragement?
- RRRichard Reeves
"You're more harm than good. You're more harm..." I mean, I mean, I don't, I haven't, I'm, I'm now sort of litigating something personal on air. Like, we can just go back to it, but there are pros and cons. But, but I honestly think like it's not, it wasn't... [laughs] I mean, the real truth is it was a very hot day, and I'd ordered a fan 'cause I knew it was gonna be hot, but I didn't realize the fan wasn't made. So I opened the box, and she went into labor [laughs] she went into labor. She's in labor. [laughs] She's in labor, and I'm shouting from the other... I go into the other room, right? She's go- having contractions. So we're doing it at home, right? And, um, uh, and I said, uh, "Do, do you know where the Phillips screwdriver is?" [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
[laughs]
- RRRichard Reeves
And she says, she says, uh, she said, "I don't need a Phillips screwdriver to have a baby." I'm like, "No, but I need a Phillips screwdriver to make the fan."
- CWChris Williamson
[laughs]
- RRRichard Reeves
[laughs] I'm not great at DIY anyway, to be honest. But it's like, so like she said, "Do you know where it is?" And she's like, "I just want you to dress them." [laughs] I'm in the other room, and I'm trying, like, and there's huge pressure now, right? This is like-
- CWChris Williamson
[laughs]
- RRRichard Reeves
... trying to make, I'm trying to make. And then she said, "Ninh Ly," she's like, "Forget the fucking fan." Just like, "I'm having the, I'm having the baby. I'm having the baby. Fan or no fan, the baby's coming. I'm, I'm nearly done. I'm nearly done. I'm on, I'm on like, I'm on like step seven with the Phillips screwdriver." So I, you know, I didn't, I wasn't amazing, uh, from that point of view. So I think that the fan thing, it, it jaundiced her about my view, to be honest, [laughs] honestly. And then, uh, uh, anyway, the other one I, I, I'm all in now. I'll share. The other one I'd say was in the birthing pool, right? 'Cause-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- RRRichard Reeves
... my wife was very into that. And in the birthing pool, and we'd been to one of these very... [laughs] I think, no, fine. Yeah, I think I can share this. So it would be this very, very, like progressive-
- CWChris Williamson
Forward thinking
- RRRichard Reeves
... Lamaze-y like midwife-y thing, right? About birthing at home. And if you have it in the pool, that's kind of great, which is good, by the way. I mean, I'm all, I think the whole, like, over-medicalization of childbirth thing, like I'm, I'm, I'm really persuaded by that argument now, that actually doing it more naturally is really good.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RRRichard Reeves
So I'd only misunderstood here.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RRRichard Reeves
Put it in the pool. But she said, "But guys, just, can I just say something to you?" She said, "Like it's quite... It can get quite murky in there. Can't see it all," which is true. Um, and she said, "And so the only thing I'll say is if you get in the pool with your partner to support them-"
- CWChris Williamson
Right
- RRRichard Reeves
... put something on. Put some swimming trunks on." She said, "Because there have been occasions when I've seen something spherical and hairy in the water, and I've assumed that it's the baby's head crowning, and I've gone in to help it, and it wasn't the baby's head crowning. It was the dad's testicle. And so I've grabbed him by the bollocks."
- CWChris Williamson
[laughs]
- RRRichard Reeves
[laughs] Et cetera. Right? Right. And like literally every guy in the room was like, "Fucking right, mate." [laughs]
- 1:36:49 – 1:40:33
Why Fathers Need More Recognitio
- RRRichard Reeves
Um-
- CWChris Williamson
Paternity leave seems a little bit more of a, like easy discussion to pass
- RRRichard Reeves
Much easier now. And it's interesting, like it's not, it's, most states are doing something on it now. So the, basically the Democrat states are passing some sort of paid leave policy for dads.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RRRichard Reeves
And the Republican ones are all having tax credits to encourage employers-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- RRRichard Reeves
... to offer paid leave. And so the idea that dads, you know, dads are parents too [laughs] uh, and bring something different, uh, that's not really a controversial idea anymore. And we have seen a massive increase, I mean, I mentioned earlier in parenting by dads, um, and a massive increase in the uptake. There are some states now where sort of the new parental leave policy is as likely to be taken by dads as by moms. And so there's been this... [laughs] I just find this very interesting, like a way f- you get these culture wars, right? Where either we're being overrun by woke feminists who are like, you know, demonising men and, you know, running everything into the ground, or you get these kind of, you know, reactionary podcasts ty- you know, people are like reactionaries who are kind of go- taking us back to The Handmaid's Tale. And then you just go to the data and you say, "Huh, interesting. Dads are doing more parenting than before." It's not like an o- ma- significant kind of increase, right? Labor force participation for women's actually hit its all-time high after the pandemic.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RRRichard Reeves
I mean, it was, it was up, um, a little bit. Um-Violent crime is way down. It's halved in the last, you know, decades. The number of boys fighting at school also halved in the last kind of few decades, et cetera, et cetera. And so, um, away from the clicks, to use your language from earlier, and away from the culture war, what I see is by and large ordinary people, moms and dads, young people, boys and girls, trying to figure this out, and figuring it out one way or the other, and it's bumpy and it's difficult and it's messy, but I think that the progress line is there and I'm, I'm a, I'm a little bit sick of the pessimism. I'm a little bit sick of the deficit frame. My, my hero John Stuart Mill once said, "Everybody who knows anything of the world is supposed to think ill of it."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RRRichard Reeves
Right? So that intellectual snobbery in favor of pessimism has always been there, right? And he was like... And so, uh, I'm trying to recalibrate some of my own talking about this, 'cause there, there is a danger that you're like, we could talk about stuff we've talked about before, about wages and male suicide and, you know, real problems. But I just kind of worry that it becomes a bit of a almost, a cultural race to the bottom. It's like who can describe exactly how we're going to hell in a handcart-
- CWChris Williamson
In the most grave terms, the fastest
- RRRichard Reeves
... and then you'll get on podcasts, then you'll get clicks, then you'll get book deals, and, and, and, uh, uh, the market for that is, it's not a new, it's not a new problem. I mean, actually think about the number of books that start with the end of, right? Actually at one point I thought it might be the end of endings or something because I'm just sick of those as well. It's like everything's the end of everything.
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- RRRichard Reeves
Rather than, you know what? We're figuring this out. It's a bit difficult. We should help each other out. We should have some supportive policies.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RRRichard Reeves
We shouldn't demonize each other. We should definitely not pathologize men or women or anybody else.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RRRichard Reeves
Um, and we should try and figure this out. Um, but, but onwards and upwards, because otherwise pessimism is a self-fulfilling prophecy, and I think it's a real problem, particularly for America. I mean, like we're in America now, right? And things I love about America, thing I hated about our old country was that everyone lived in the past. And this definition of an old person is, you know you're old when you spend more of your time thinking about your past than your future. I think the same is true of societies. Once societies start thinking more about their history and their n- you know, and all of that, which you want, you want that sense of history and patriotism, but you want to be spending more time thinking about the future. I just heard this guy on a podcast and I, I can't remember who it was. Somewhere. I think it's the guy that left Harvard actually. Um, and he sort of said, "Americans... The thing about America is that it's obsessed with progress and innovation." I'm like-
- CWChris Williamson
Yes
- RRRichard Reeves
... yes. [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
Yes. That's why I'm here.
- RRRichard Reeves
That's why I'm a proud American.
- CWChris Williamson
That's why I'm here.
- RRRichard Reeves
That's why I love it.
- 1:40:33 – 1:42:46
Are Modern Men Satisfied With Life?
- CWChris Williamson
Exactly. Uh, what's happening with men's life satisfaction at the moment?
- RRRichard Reeves
Uh, I don't know the latest data on that actually. Um, I don't, I don't know.
- CWChris Williamson
But you mentioned here's a bunch of reasons why stuff's maybe not quite as fucked as people think it is.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But I think if you were to lick your finger and put it in the air and take a cultural temperature of how people are talking about this situation-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... I think m- more people would... What's the number one reason for why people, uh, s- the Pew Research data around why they don't have kids, just don't feel ready yet?
- RRRichard Reeves
Uh, yes. And then the second just couldn't find the right person.
- CWChris Williamson
Couldn't find the right person is the second one. But d- just don't feel ready yet is like unfinished article, a little bit unsure of myself and the world.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah, there is this kind of... Yeah, I mean, there's, there's, there's a mixture of objective and subjective measures here. There was this really interesting paper looking at the kind of five milestones to adulthood, like finishing education, getting a job, leaving home, getting married, I think having kids. And it was very... And what it found was that 20 years ago, men were more likely to hit those milestones, and now men are less likely than women to hit those milestones. So the milestones to adulthood are being hit more by women now than by men.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RRRichard Reeves
The co- the coefficient has, has flipped. As far as the wellbeing stuff goes, my m- last time I looked at this, it was relatively stable if on the kind of good subjective wellbeing measures. Um, we do know that men are m- much, uh, more affected by relationship breakup and unemployment, and so e- negative economic and social shocks damage male wellbeing more than female wellbeing.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RRRichard Reeves
So you might expect, um, some of the recent shocks to have affected men more. The trouble with this honestly, is that there's just so many bad surveys out there that will ask these kind of point in time questions, uh, from both sides, and not throwing anybody under the bus here, but just like, and it gets clicked and it, that... Some of the surveys written, like there's so many surveys on young men now. I mean, like if I get another email saying, "We wanna do a survey on what young men are really thinking," I'm like, "No, please don't," because you'll just ask some stupid questions and then you'll over interpret the answers, and we won't be able to repeat the question 'cause it doesn't, it's, there's no time series on it, and people are just in that moment, they, they'll just react to the question in that kind of particular cultural moment-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- RRRichard Reeves
... and then we'll over interpret it.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. So if you're in the middle of the Iran war, you're gonna feel differently-
- RRRichard Reeves
Feel it now
- CWChris Williamson
... than if it's-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah. Yeah. Or even like, and also we've seen massive swings in some of these things, just like one side or the other of a presidential election. And you think really if like who's in the White House is massively changing how you feel about the world, then that's telling us that this is highly subjective.
- 1:42:46 – 1:47:18
Is Title IX Helping or Hurting Men?
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. What was that nuance on Title IX that I texted you about? I thought this was really interesting. I swear I texted you about, um, uh, some guy had done a video and it was actually of the episode that I did with Scott.
- RRRichard Reeves
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
Just Scott talking.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah. Oh, that's right.
- CWChris Williamson
And Scott had said-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... Title IX is used to-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... sort of pull back men. But-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... the guy's video said it could also be used for raising up men.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah. So-
- CWChris Williamson
What's the nuance?
- RRRichard Reeves
Ti- ti... Yeah. The nuance there is that Title IX is a, is anti-sex discrimination in higher education, right? It basically just takes the idea of you can't discriminate on the basis of sex, and it makes it clear that that's true in higher education. There is one exception to that, which is undergraduate admissions to private colleges, which I'll come back to, uh, 'cause it's relevant to the answer. Um, but what it basically says, you can't discriminate on the basis of sex. And so it was really an anti-discrimination measure, uh, not a strongly affirmative action measure. So it's not, it w- didn't say to colleges, everything else equal, you should let women in, not men. And there's no evidence that that's happening, right? There's no w- there's no evidence that the reason there are more women in college now than men is because there's a thumb on the scale in favor of the women. They're just better in terms of the sample measure that we have.
- CWChris Williamson
Is there a thumb on the scale against the favor of men?
- RRRichard Reeves
Uh, no. Not, not... I've seen absolutely no evidence for that.
- CWChris Williamson
Interesting.
- RRRichard Reeves
In fact, if anything, most colleges, public or private, although the publics don't have this carve out, actually are quite worried about this. We've got a whole, uh, we've got a thing now, a higher education male achievement collaborative working with colleges because they like, they, they start to worry once they hit 60/40, 65, because not only do their male applications drop, their female applications start to drop too. Because the dating market on a college campus where there are twice as many women as men is not awesome for women. So maybe it comes back to a little bit people who don't think there's any difference between men and women should look at the difference in the dating market on college campuses that skew to where there are two women for every man. And I've had young women saying that they, they look at the gender ratio of colleges before they decide to apply because-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- RRRichard Reeves
... this message has gotten out there now that it's not awesome to be among, uh, in, in a college where there are twice as many. So no, no, no strong evidence for a thumb on the scale in, against men. The exception is Title IX carves out private undergraduate colleges and undergraduate admissions, and the reason they did that was otherwise you would have at, at stroke abolished the single-sex colleges. You wouldn't have been able to have single-sex colleges. You have to let Wellesley only admit women, right? But the result of that is that those colleges do have a thumb on the scale in favor of men now to try and stay closer to 50/50. So it's an open secret that the... It's a bit easier to get into those elite colleges if you're a guy than if you're a woman.
- CWChris Williamson
Did you see there was a dating, um, singles mixer that happened in New York, and women were charged $100 to attend-
- RRRichard Reeves
Huh
- CWChris Williamson
... and men were let in free.
- RRRichard Reeves
[laughs] What's-
- CWChris Williamson
And the ratio-
- RRRichard Reeves
You're a nightclub, you're a nightclub promoter. Isn't that a-
- CWChris Williamson
The ratio, the ratio-
- RRRichard Reeves
... rare bird?
- CWChris Williamson
... was still-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah
- 1:47:18 – 2:04:21
What Does the Future Look Like For Men?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. If you zoom out for 50 years, what do you think happens for men over the next few decades? Are you optimistic, pessimistic? What are you most concerned about? What are you most hopeful for?
- RRRichard Reeves
Uh, I, look, I'm an inveterate optimist. Uh, I do think the glass is half full, but for me, I've come to realize is that my optimism isn't just an orientation or a personality trait. It is that. I think for me it's getting close to something like a virtue.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RRRichard Reeves
That to think well of the future, um, is of, is valuable in and of itself. Um, because I think other- otherwise the kind of messaging to young people more generally is just so relentlessly negative, and then we kind of blame them for feeling down, right? Um, I'm, so I'm pretty optimistic and the reason I'm optimistic is 'cause it's, it's a hell of a mess right now. Like it's very messy, it's goopy, uh, figuring it out. Some of the stuff we've talked about here and argued about here just shows you that particularly for kind of young men and young women, just kind of figuring out this new rea- these new realities.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RRRichard Reeves
But I think we're kind of past the sort of... We're breaking past, I hope, more of a zero-sum. We are getting more to a kind of world where young men and young women are kind of trying to figure this out in good faith, and I think they will figure it out. I don't know how, but we always have one way or the other.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RRRichard Reeves
And I think we will again, and I think that people are ready to get past some of the bullshit ideological traps that people have been trying to put us in for too long. I really think there's a hunger for that.
- CWChris Williamson
I hope so, 'cause one of the byproducts that you have of lots of conflicting messages, you know, you said the, the pinball or the m- m- male vertigo, masculinity vertigo.
- RRRichard Reeves
Masculinity vertigo, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Vertigo.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, where-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... men don't know what they're supposed to be.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
They're supposed to be masculine on a Monday and then-
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... soft on a Tuesday.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And then a tyrant on a Wednesday.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And then, you know, you're in therapy on a Thursday.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yoga, yoga on Friday.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, exactly. Um, one of the problems I think that can come out of that is a type of... If there's lots of conflicting messages, it doesn't convince you of any one particular message, it just makes you immune to being convinced. A- apathy, right? That this is what a disinformation and a misinformation campaign is supposed to achieve when it's done en masse as a, a information warfare-
- RRRichard Reeves
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... by a foreign adversary. It's not to convince the populace of one thing or another all the time. Sometimes it's just-
- RRRichard Reeves
That's right
- CWChris Williamson
... to make them distrust-
- RRRichard Reeves
Everything
- 2:04:21 – 2:05:00
Where to Find Richard
- CWChris Williamson
Heck yeah. Richard Reeves, ladies and gentlemen. Richard, where should people go to keep up to date with whatever you've got going on?
- RRRichard Reeves
Well, those policy briefs I mentioned are all at AI- AI-
- CWChris Williamson
Stop trying to push your policy briefs.
- RRRichard Reeves
I, I, I...
- CWChris Williamson
No one's reading your fucking-
- RRRichard Reeves
Our, our, our policy brief on sports betting is the best po- best piece of policy work out there on the very live issue of sports betting. So aIBM.org.
- CWChris Williamson
Cool. Richard, I appreciate you.
- RRRichard Reeves
So fun.
- CWChris Williamson
Goodbye, everybody. Dude.
- RRRichard Reeves
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
So good.
- RRRichard Reeves
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
Gonna go. All right. That was so fun.
- RRRichard Reeves
It was. It was great. Yeah. [outro music]
- CWChris Williamson
Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, YouTube knows who you are deeply. It thinks you're gonna like this one even more. Go on, press it.
Episode duration: 2:05:01
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