The Mindset To Break A 100-Mile Record - Zach Bitter

1. 0:00 – 0:25

   Intro

   1. ZBZach Bitter0:00

      One of the biggest mistakes I think ultra runners can make is, you find yourself at the starting line of a 100-mile race and you just create this monster in your head of what you're going to do and then you try to wrap your head around that. And you burn so much mental energy thinking about that all day, that when you get to the end and it's time to really push, you've got nothing left to give mentally, you've kind of drained that mental battery, so to speak. (wind blows)

   2. CWChris Williamson0:23

      Zach Bitter, welcome to the show.

   3. ZBZach Bitter0:24

      Hey,

2. 0:25 – 9:06

   Ultramarathon Trends

   1. ZBZach Bitter0:25

      thanks for having me.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:26

      How are you finding training now that you're in Austin? Has it got the right, the requisite trails and running routes that you need?

   3. ZBZach Bitter0:33

      Yeah. You know, the biggest transition for me so far has just been going from like a very oppressively hot dry climate in Phoenix to a slightly more, or I shouldn't say slightly, but much muggier climate here in Austin.

   4. CWChris Williamson0:46

      Equally oppressive, but a bit wetter.

   5. ZBZach Bitter0:48

      (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson0:48

      Yeah.

   7. ZBZach Bitter0:48

      Yeah. I grew up in the Midwest. I spent a couple of decades in, in Wisconsin actually. So I got sort of familiar with humid summers, so I have an idea of what's, what's coming and, you know, one of the reasons why my wife and I moved to Austin was 'cause I ended up coming down here, I think five times last year. And she was already kind of interested in, in moving to Austin at some point. So we, we decided, uh, it was time to make it happen, so. But yeah, adjusting, I'm training for mostly flat stuff right now, so terrain isn't as big of an issue. It's just, you know, normalizing the, the temperatures more or less.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:20

      We don't have a lot of elevation or mountains in Austin. Or at least I haven't been to see any yet. I haven't been shown any of them.

   9. ZBZach Bitter1:27

      No. They, I mean, they call it hill country, I guess. So you can get some rollers, but not a lot of like two-mile-a-cent type of situations like you're gonna find in like the canyons out in California and stuff like that. So it's a little different. Uh, I kind of like it though. I like running controlled surfaces a little bit better. I, I like doing the trail stuff as well, but usually I'll use that as a way to kind of like break up kind of big buildups for more flatter races and that just kind of keeps, keeps me excited about it. Makes it not quite as monotonous and I think just kind of gives you a little bit of an edge when you're kind of going back and forth a little bit. But I'm sure once the summers really pick up, we'll head up to Colorado for some, some, uh, training sessions up in, uh, in the mountains if there's a race that's kind of targeting that type of terrain as well.

   10. CWChris Williamson2:12

       What are you working towards right now?

   11. ZBZach Bitter2:14

       Uh, I'm actually preparing for an event that as, as silly as it sounds, it's on an indoor track at the Olympic training facility in Milwaukee, Wisconsin called the Pedet Center. And it's a, it's a little over 400-meter indoor track. They have a speed skating rink in there, so they keep it at like 60 degrees constant which is, is kind of a nice control there from a weather standpoint. And I'm probably gonna do a 100 miles or tw- distance traveled in 12 hours there. But I'm sort of keeping the door open to do 24 hours just in, just in case. But that's, uh, in June. So, uh, everything I'm kind of doing from a training standpoint is kind of, uh, moving towards that.

   12. CWChris Williamson2:50

       You must be in the thick of it then if that's what, like, between six and eight weeks away or something, this must be l- ramping up towards a pretty intense set of training weeks.

   13. ZBZach Bitter3:02

       Mm-hmm. Yeah. And when I do stuff that's kind of like 100 miles and further, I'm usually compartmentalizing the different intensities a little more than what a lot of folks would probably think of with an endurance plan. Uh, and the periodization is still there, it's just a little more structured so that I'm working on, say, like, shorter intervals earlier in the plan, longer intervals or what do you call like a tempo run kind of in the middle and then spending the last, like, six to eight weeks working on kind of race-specific pacing, which for longer races just tends to be slower versus most endurance races where race day is going to be kind of a more faster paced comparatively to what you're normally doing in training. So, I think when you kind of stretch out the distance as far as 100 miles and beyond, you get into this, this kind of territory where you're really not going to cross a bunch of different intensities on race days if you're doing things right. You're going to kind of dial in the right intensity and hold on for dear life, so to speak. And that just kind of puts you in a position I think to be a little more, uh, one-dimensional throughout the, uh, the different phases of training.

   14. CWChris Williamson4:03

       Do you still hold the 100-mile record?

   15. ZBZach Bitter4:06

       I have the American record for 100 miles and distance run in 12 miles. But I, uh, I lost the world record, uh, to a guy named Alex Sorkin who's just been on a tear. He actually now holds the world records for 24 hours, uh, 12 hours, 100 miles and 100 kilometers. So he's just, uh, been, been ripping it up, but it'll be fun to kind of take a swing at some of the times he's been putting up the last few years.

   16. CWChris Williamson4:30

       W- Do you know what the times are?

   17. ZBZach Bitter4:31

       Yeah. So he, he recently just broke the 100-kilometer world record, which was six hours and five minutes. So he's like sub-six-minute milling essentially for 62 and a half miles or 100 kilometers for that. His 100-mile, uh, PR is ten hours and 51 minutes.

   18. CWChris Williamson4:48

       And what was yours before?

   19. ZBZach Bitter4:49

       Mine was 11 hours and 19 minutes. So he took a good chunk off of that. Um, then he went 110 miles in 12 hours. So, uh, that's just distance. They do these weird things in ultra running where you see how far you can get in a specific timeframe. So some popular ones are like 12 hours, 24 hours, and then when you get real crazy, you do like 48, 72, and sometimes even six days. So he's gone up to 24, which he did, I want to say that was maybe about eight months ago. He ran a 192 and a half miles in 24 hours. So he's been just kind of lighting the, the flat runnable ultra scene on fire recently. It's been kind of cool to see, see him take a big swing at that stuff.

   20. CWChris Williamson5:29

       Is that indoors as well?

   21. ZBZach Bitter5:31

       His were all outside. So there was, uh, an event, he did two of them at, called the Centurion Hundred, where they have an outdoor track that is designed for kind of record chasing. They try to minimize the field size so you're not kind of spending too much time in lane two or three if it gets real crowded on the track. And, uh, he did the 24-hour on, I think, it was like a short loop around a mile, little, maybe a little over a mile. And, yeah, and I think the other, I think the other... So he's, he's actually run a 100 miles now twice since I broke the world record. And you did... Once he ran 11:14, and that's kind of was his first race.... then he did a 192 and a half for 24 hours, went back and did another 100 mile, and that's when he went 10:51, uh, and then just, I think, was it a week ago he did the 100 kilometer world record. Um, but yeah, it's been, been insane to watch.

   22. CWChris Williamson6:25

       So a six, like a sub-six-minute mile? Uh, sorry, a sub-six-minute kilometer for-

   23. ZBZach Bitter6:32

       A mi- mile for the 100 kilometer, actually.

   24. CWChris Williamson6:34

       Yes.

   25. ZBZach Bitter6:34

       So, it's like, I think it's like, it's in the 5:50s for, for mile pace for that. And I think, if my math is right in my head, it's like he's getting around, like, for his, he's down into, like, sub-four-kilometer, four-minute kilometer pace for, for some of this. (laughs)

   26. CWChris Williamson6:53

       (laughs) Which is disgusting.

   27. ZBZach Bitter6:54

       It is, it's insane. It's, it's really cool to see the sport kind of, kind of grow 'cause like I got an ultra-marathon running in 2010, and that was kind of at the precipice of like a big surge of popularity with the sport, and it's just kind of continued to get more, more popular over the last decade or so. And a lot of the growth was on kind of the trails and the mountain side of it, and it was kind of a draw away from the kind of more structured running that you see historically. But there's a pretty big history in kind of flat, runnable, controlled sor- short loop stuff, timed events and things like that. So as the sport's continued growing, we're seeing this side of it kind of grow as well, and he's certainly, uh, doing his fair share of, uh, putting a spotlight on some of this stuff.

   28. CWChris Williamson7:32

       And the way that it works, because the 100-mile and the 12-hour time tend to be so tightly, uh, close together, you have a crack at the first one, and then if you feel like you've got a little bit more in the tank, you just keep on going and see what you've got, and then maybe even have a look at the 24 as well.

   29. ZBZach Bitter7:51

       Yeah, the latter is a little more rare, but, uh, most, uh ... I mean, there's only a few people who've been in a position to go under 12 for 100 and then, uh, um, continue on. So it, but that seems to be the move. I've only ... I ran, I did, at one time I stopped at 100 miles in 2015. I ran 100 miles in about 11 hours and 40 minutes and was just like burning in fumes basically, (laughs) so I stopped with that. I always wonder about that one, how much of that one was, uh, just my mental exhaustion, which is the likely case there, versus just kind of physically running out of steam. But I think usually when you're in a position to be running a, a time that's under 12 hours, or in, in Alex's situation, under 11 hours, uh, the motivation to kind of keep going since you've put yourself in that position is there, and you tend, uh, to stick it out even if it's at a s- slower pace. 24 gets interesting 'cause there's just so much more dynamics there in terms of what you need to do for that extra 12 hours. So I think it, maybe it looks appealing when you cross that 12-hour mark, but then as you kind of tick up to 16, 17, 18 hours, it gets a little more daunting to maybe wrap your head around that. So, um, usually people are picking one or the other, or if they do pick both, usually only one of them goes well.

3. 9:06 – 16:04

   Logistics of Running 100 Miles

   1. ZBZach Bitter9:06

      (laughs)

   2. CWChris Williamson9:07

      Talk me through a controlled environment for hitting 100 miles. How many breaks are you taking through that, or are you, are you trying to not stop and refuel as you move pretty much for the entire 12 hours?

   3. ZBZach Bitter9:19

      Yeah, as much as you can tolerate. Really the only thing that should pull you off of a track in an event like that if you're going for just your fastest potential time is a bathroom break. So what I'll usually do is I'll have like a, usually a couple of people out there that are just kind of at a, at a table with all my stuff, and as I'm coming around the loop, if I want something, I'll just say what I want, and then a couple of minutes later, they'll hand it to me. So all the, like, hydrating and fueling and things I'm going to be doing is going to be kind of on the fly, so to speak. And then it's just you, uh, you hope for the best digestively and for bathroom breaks-

   4. CWChris Williamson9:53

      (laughs)

   5. ZBZach Bitter9:53

      ... and things like that. Um, my, my most efficient was I did 100 miles with I think around, between 60 to 90 seconds of total stoppage.

   6. CWChris Williamson10:03

      Total stoppage?

   7. ZBZach Bitter10:04

      Yeah. Mm-hmm.

   8. CWChris Williamson10:05

      12 hours basically.

   9. ZBZach Bitter10:06

      Yep. Yeah, and then, uh, when I ran my fastest time, 11 hours and 19 minutes, that was, I think I stopped for a total of maybe three, three and a half minutes total on that one.

   10. CWChris Williamson10:15

       Wow. And then is that ... Where do you ... Because I've seen certain races where people take, they have to recover, they have to either do a little bit of, um, sleep or-

   11. ZBZach Bitter10:25

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CWChris Williamson10:25

       ... some sort of soft tissue or just get, lift their legs up or whatever. Where's the line? If, if it's not 12 hours, is it 24, is it 48?

   13. ZBZach Bitter10:34

       Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, if you look at just, like, world record performances and things like that, or record-breaking performances, y- there's not going to be a lot of that. There's, uh, I want to say the previous American record for 24 hours, a guy named Mike Morton, when he got near like the final hours, he was starting to really tighten up in like the hamstring area, and he would stop every like four loops and do a like this stretch that seemed to kind of keep him, keep him moving a bit. But, you know, when you get to like Alex Sorokin's world record, his average pace is right around seven and a half minute miling, so any stoppage there just means he's got to run faster to average that time. So I'm pretty sure he had a pretty, he had a minimal-

   14. CWChris Williamson11:16

       That's for the 24, 7:00, 7:30 for the 24.

   15. ZBZach Bitter11:20

       Mm-hmm. Yep.

   16. CWChris Williamson11:20

       Fuck.

   17. ZBZach Bitter11:20

       I think once you start getting to like 48 hours is where you start kind of considering is, like say a 20-minute power nap going to actually produce a faster overall distance versus staying out there and slogging it. And it's just, you know, as you stretch out to those distances too, you just, the fields get thinner and thinner, and the data points get, get less and less, uh, populated. (laughs) So you do have a little bit of a variance. I, I remember specifically I was following ... There was a popular timed event race, uh, actually down near Phoenix that they do every year at the end of, at the end of the year, actually it's called Across the Years 'cause you start in December and end in January. And the six days is kind of their, their big calling card for that one. And there was a close battle between two guys a few years back, and one of them...... slept, I think, a total of somewhere in the upper 20-hour timeframe during it, and the other guy was, like, less than eight hours total over the course of six days. So you do get a pretty big variance.

   18. CWChris Williamson12:21

       And they ended up finishing in a not too dissimilar time?

   19. ZBZach Bitter12:23

       Yeah, they were close to one another. That's a one-mile, like, kind of dirt loop that they do that one on and I want to say they were within, like, a loop or two of one another by the end of it all.

   20. CWChris Williamson12:31

       Who's that crazy guy that did the, the race that's kind of orienteering and now it's one mile on the hour every hour until s- till everybody quits?

   21. ZBZach Bitter12:41

       Oh, yeah, the... so, th- they've got these events called Backyard Ultras, essentially-

   22. CWChris Williamson12:45

       Yes.

   23. ZBZach Bitter12:46

       ... where, yeah, you, you have, like, a loop or something that you need to complete in an hour's time and it's just a last man standing is what they'll call it, 'cause y- everyone keeps going out until there's one left. The most-

   24. CWChris Williamson12:55

       Yeah.

   25. ZBZach Bitter12:55

       ... recent one I think is Harvey Lewis, is probably who you're thinking of. Um-

   26. CWChris Williamson12:58

       Is he the guy that made... Oh, what's that called? There's this special trail that he did for ages and ages and it was a real sort of, uh, l- interesting type of race. The route was always different. It took a little bit of orienteering to kind of get yourself around.

   27. ZBZach Bitter13:13

       I think you're thinking of the Barclays Marathon, so-

   28. CWChris Williamson13:15

       I am thinking of the Barclay's Marathon. Thank you.

   29. ZBZach Bitter13:17

       Yeah, that one's another interesting one where it's... I mean, it's all, like, kind of a mystery. They say-

   30. CWChris Williamson13:22

       Yes.
4. 16:04 – 23:53

   Impact of Age on Running Form

   1. CWChris Williamson16:04

   2. ZBZach Bitter16:04

      36.

   3. CWChris Williamson16:05

      Okay, cool. And is this... Uh, uh, uh, are you kind of looking at the, the precipice over the next, whatever, five to ten years of the single day ultras maybe being a little bit difficult to keep up with? Does that start to look a little bit more like a sprint when you're-

   4. ZBZach Bitter16:19

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson16:19

      ... 45 or 46 instead of 36?

   6. ZBZach Bitter16:21

      Mm-hmm. For sure. And I think... It's actually in my mind, and this is something that I probably had to re- relearn or reevaluate in my mind, is I've thought that as the sport kind of evolved, we did see kind of, like, a push of younger folks coming into it, where historically it was kind of you went through a full, like, sort of, like, career, if you want to call it that, or at least, like, personal, like, project of seeing how fast you could run, like, the 5K, the 10K, the half-marathon, the marathon, and then you'd sort of age out, and then maybe if you still had some, some, uh, some fire in you, you would decide to do an ultramarathon. So you'd see a lot of the winners would be kind of a little bit older than your average athlete would be. Uh, we started seeing that get a little younger as the sport grew, but then recently we've seen the men's and women's 100 miles, 24 hours, uh, 12 hours, all go down to 40-year-olds. So now I'm thinking to myself, "Well, maybe I got more time, (laughs) time left on the single day stuff than I originally thought." So, uh, it is an interesting kind of a thought experiment to, to run through your mind, but I think, uh, the 24-hour is gonna be something I'll spend a fair bit of time training for and preparing for in the future, and then I don't know how much of the four- The word on the street from the very experienced multi-day folks is that the four to eight hour is the most brutal one, because that's the one where you could, in theory, probably not sleep at all, whereas once you get up to, like, 72-plus hours, you're probably gonna have at least some breaks in there. And, uh, it's just a lot to wrap your head around, I think, from the mental side to be going into a 40-hour race and thinking, like, "I'm gonna push through two sleepless nights and try to stay consistent and, and on target for what I'm going for," and, and that, that one sounds a little daunting, so perhaps I'll skip that and just do some, uh, last man standing stuff. (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson18:10

      Do you... Uh, have you got any concerns long term about your health? Obviously, I've heard, uh, rumors or whatever, seen things online about free radicals from these people that do tons and tons of endurance events, you know, like, absolute long out longevity, is, is that something that you consider?

   8. ZBZach Bitter18:27

      Yeah, it's definitely something I think about. Um... and it's, uh, if... when, when I'm, like, looking at what I do relative to just running in general, I've clearly gone past, like, the mar- like, the, the health benefits and into, like, the kind of masochistic territory of, like, you're brutalizing your body and you're going to fight a little bit of an uphill battle to probably keep things in check. So, um, I think about that stuff. I've just been... I, I also... I sort of look at life more though through the lens of I want to maximize my time and enjoy... joy it as much as I can. So if that means, like, I'm taking some years off the back end in order to be, like, really able to go after the things that interest me, I'd rather have that than be kind of more moderate and find myself, you know, living to be, like, 90 or 100 and kind of wondering, "What if I would have pushed a little harder or trained a little differently?" So I'm, I'm definitely trying to do things in a way where I feel it'll keep me sustainable and keep me healthy and not, not destroy myself. And some of that, I think, is just being kind of mindful of when injuries do pop up, making sure you're taking the time to not let them fester into something that's going to be long-term or permanent. Uh... I think paying attention to nutrition and things like that so that you don't end up, uh, in a situation where you, you're constantly depleting yourself and running yourself into the ground and premature aging and things like that. Um... but at the end of the day, it is probably the, you know, I've, I've... like I said, I've probably crossed that point where I'm maximizing health through the activities I'm doing and, uh, leaning a little bit more into performance at the expense of some health. But, uh... part of it is also I, I don't necessarily see myself as being, like, this 65-year-old, still out there kind of slogging through ultra-marathons for the sake of doing it. My, my suspicion is that when I get to a point where I'm no longer competitive, I'll probably focus my energies on some sort of other physical type of thing and maybe lean a little more into some strength type stuff and, uh, you know, preserve... hopefully preserve some lean muscle mass as I age. (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson20:34

      Yeah. Yeah, man, I... it's... it is interesting thinking about, um, the people at the peak of their sport, you know. You have the 100-mile record for a chunk of time and then you're gonna go for it again this year. Talking about life balance and offsetting longevity and considerations about that, like, all of those things are just mitigating performance basically. All of those things are just going to get in the way. Even if it's ever so slightly, like-

   10. ZBZach Bitter21:00

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson21:00

       ... you know, whatever it is that you decide that you're not going to do with regards to your training or your nutrition or your whatever, it, it's not going to be to the benefit of your performance. So if you are going all out to try and be the best in the world, which you are, I... it's interesting, right, because the role model that we have, that we see in people, that give absolutely everything that they have, most people who aren't at the peak of that sport, because there's only, you know, a handful that are, take that strategy as the one that they should use in their daily life. And I think that you need to look at, okay, what are the things that they are doing that I can bring into my own life whilst taking into account the fact that this isn't my calling, right? I'm not trying to get a world record. I'm not going for this. This isn't my source of income, my desire for legacy, my highest calling in life. And trying to blend those two things. What is it that Zac's doing that I can bring onboard myself that I think is a good strategy? But also, uh, do I... do I want to be ending myself to the same degree that someone who's trying to create this long-lasting legacy is? Well, if you're just a recreational runner, then maybe not.

   12. ZBZach Bitter22:09

       Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's a really good point because I think... it's, it's funny. I think actually, like... because I coach people from, like, beginners who barely ran at all in their, their entire life to people who've been running their entire life and are, you know, chasing, like, an age group record or something like that. And the difference I would... I say between, like, someone like myself who's doing this as a career or a profession and someone who's doing it as, like, a passion but they also have a full-time job, a family, you know, a whole other life outside of it, is they just have a lot more variables that they're actually dealing with. Like, when you put yourself in a position where you decide, "I'm gonna spend, say, four to six months just living this life of a professional athlete and do everything I can to kind of maximize my performance on one singular day," you sort of eliminate so many variables out of necessity, like you said. You start whittling things down where you just draw your parameters so tight that you have, like, a very short list of things that could negatively impact or impact what you're trying to do versus the everyday person who simply can't turn those things off nor do they necessarily want to. And where I find that interesting is a lot of times we'll take things like, like studies and research on kind of training methodology or nutrition and things like that and we'll be looking at, like, the elites, the tip of the spear. And it's like... to a degree, like you said, there's a lot of useful things you can pull out of that, but once you start introducing life variables that are not present or haven't been fine-tuned to the degree that they are with a professional athlete, it starts getting interesting. And I think it gets more exciting in terms of finding out, like, "Well, why does this work so well for me but not for that person?" And then, you, you kind of have to play around with some of those variables and figure out why it's working for someone and not you or vice versa.

5. 23:53 – 31:53

   Developing an Ultramarathon Mindset

   1. ZBZach Bitter23:53

   2. CWChris Williamson23:53

      I'm interested by the mindset that you need to be able to do that sort of an event. So obviously you're doing your training, you're doing your recovery, you're probably learning about different strategies for, uh... fueling and refueling and intra-day workout, uh, fuel and stuff like that. How much are you doing formal mindset training? Is there... are you working with a mindset coach? Are you going through any particular types of techniques that are assisting you there?

   3. ZBZach Bitter24:21

      Yeah, you know, the mindset side of the sport has been something where I think when I first got into it...... I sort of just thought, like, it would take care of itself more or less, where it was just, you know, my, I think my mindset about mindset was the reason I'm doing this is because I have a strong enough mindset to push through this stuff, and that was just like a, a s- a skill set that I didn't necessarily need to practice, or that was just kind of unique to someone who's doing this sort of a, this sort of a sport or this sort of an activity. But as I kind of went through it, I started recognizing just kind of how you can train your mind differently and z- and kind of structure the training too. So for me now when I'm looking at, like, my training schedule, I'm thinking about just, like, how do I work on things like visualization during training to try to kind of help me close the gap between, say, the last time I ran 100 miles and the next time I'm going to, because the mindset of an ultra-marathon, the uniqueness comes in the relative limited amount of experiences you actually have at it from a, just, like, being very specific to it. So if-

   4. CWChris Williamson25:31

      'Cause you never, sorry, you rarely run 100 miles in tr-

   5. ZBZach Bitter25:35

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson25:35

      In fact are you, have you ever run 100 miles in training?

   7. ZBZach Bitter25:38

      No, mm-mm. So you're-

   8. CWChris Williamson25:39

      What's the, what's the longest that you've run as not a competition?

   9. ZBZach Bitter25:43

      Not a competition, 60 miles.

   10. CWChris Williamson25:46

       Yeah.

   11. ZBZach Bitter25:46

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CWChris Williamson25:46

       So barely half of-

   13. ZBZach Bitter25:48

       Yeah.

   14. CWChris Williamson25:48

       ... the thing that you hold a record in.

   15. ZBZach Bitter25:50

       Right, yeah. So when you think about it, like, even, like, the marathon which when we're looking at standard endurance events is kind of the pinnacle from a distance standpoint, not uncommon at all that even, like, uh, folks that aren't elite will get up to, if not at that distance, so at least they can wrap their head around the amount of time they're going to be out there. And you see the elites training for marathons, they're sometimes pushing upw- upwards to, like, a long run where they're doing 16, 18 miles at goal marathon pace, so they've narrowed that gap between executing their race and what they've done in training to s- to a fairly small margin where as long as something uncertain doesn't happen, uh, they can almost predict what they're going to do on race day, whereas, yeah, 100-miling, like, y- the last time you experienced mile 70 to 100 was the last time you did it. So for me, like, the mindset side of things is just practicing, like, visualizing where you want to be on event day and working yourself through that, and the best spot for that, I think, is always when you're doing things that are specific to what you're doing. So I really start to lean into the mindset side of things a lot more when I'm at about the last third of my training build-up where I'm really starting to build up my long run and add back-to-back long runs, so I might find myself on, say, like, a Saturday, Sunday long run double where I'm running 30 miles on both of those days. And, uh, on that second one specifically I'm gonna have a little bit of fatigue from the training week, uh, there, and I'm just visualizing what is it going to feel like to move from mile 70 to 100 and just, like, taking snapshots in my head through that, through these long runs so that when I do get there on race day, I feel like it's kind of a little more close proximity in terms of, like, what I want to do, how I want to do it. And I find that that's really helped me kind of wrap my head around the whole thing, because one of the biggest mistakes I think ultra-runners can make is you find yourself at the starting line of a 100-mile race, and you just create this monster in your head of what you're going to do and then you try to wrap your head around that, and you burn so much mental energy thinking about that all day that when you get to the end and it's time to really push, you've got nothing left to give mentally. You've kind of drained that mental battery, so to speak. And if you can build that up and put yourself in a position where you can kind of work through those paces in your head on a little more of an autopilot because you've felt like you've done it a bunch of times, I think that's the sweet spot there, so that and, uh, i- there's some other mental tricks I like to use. One is, like, intra-race stuff where you actually are breaking down different segments, so, like, when I start a 100-mile race, I'm not going to be thinking about finishing. I'm going to be thinking about hitting that first benchmark of where I'm going to try to get to and what time I'm going to try to hit there and, and try to crowd out any other thoughts if possible. I'm also going to be thinking about if I find myself standing on the start line of a 100-mile race, I'm essentially, like, 99% of the way there when I look at it from the entirety of the training build-up, so being mindful during the training so you have these reference points to think about, oh, yeah, four months ago I was there, and now I'm here, and, you know, s- three months ago I was ... Uh, you just have these, like, mental pictures in your head that really highlight the breadth of everything and help you minimize the big task at hand which I think is very helpful in kind of getting yourself positioned to be able to stay on top of the, the physical side of things, uh, with your mindset.

   16. CWChris Williamson29:09

       Zooming out is so important. It's such a difficult skill to, though, right? We're so short-termist-

   17. ZBZach Bitter29:15

       Mm-hmm.

   18. CWChris Williamson29:15

       ... as humans, especially if discomfort's in the situation. You're doing this thing and all that you feel is the taste of metal in the back of your throat-

   19. ZBZach Bitter29:24

       Yeah. (laughs)

   20. CWChris Williamson29:24

       ... and the blood in your lungs and the, uh, throbbing of your legs and stuff, and you can't ... It's so hard. You're totally right. If you've been preparing for, you know, three to six months to go and do any sort of a race, and you're partway through the race, like, you aren't ... Uh, it's 99 point something of the way there of all of the time that you've spent researching and looking at kit and hydrating-

   21. ZBZach Bitter29:46

       Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson29:46

       ... and diet and going on practice runs and thinking about how the race is ... all of that, and you've just, it- it's just the end. You know, what's the ... It's the f- the, uh, final stage of the Tour de France that's basically, like, a, a trophy lap-

   23. ZBZach Bitter29:59

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson29:59

       ... right? It's kind of just a, uh, I can't remember what they call it, the, the peloton just comes in and it's, um, symbolic, right? It's not, it's not actually part of the race so much. And, um, it's precisely the same as that.

   25. ZBZach Bitter30:11

       Mm-hmm.

   26. CWChris Williamson30:11

       But except for the fact that you, if you get yourself in the wrong headspace, you probably can talk yourself into this being this huge, big problem that you need to overcome and then you're going to be stressed, and you know that that's not going to be good for your performance, and because you know it's not good for your performance, you're thinking about the fact that the thing you're thinking isn't going to be good for your performance, and it makes it worse and makes it worse.

   27. ZBZach Bitter30:29

       It spirals, yeah. (laughs)

   28. CWChris Williamson30:31

       Yeah.

   29. ZBZach Bitter30:32

       Yeah. A- it's funny too 'cause I think-... a- and this maybe goes back to little bit to one of the questions you asked before. It's like, for me, I think when I don't belong on a starting line of an ultra-marathon any longer is when I get to a point where the process of preparing for it is no longer enjoyable and no longer fulfilling, because when you look at the race as kind of like more of a celebration of all the work you did to get there, then it becomes just kind of part of it versus the, the end all be all. And when people ask me, like, why I run ultra-marathons or if, if they ask, like, what they should do for running an endurance race, I think digging into that has got to be square one. It's like, well, what do you actually want to be doing on the day-to-day? How, uh, what kind of fulfillment are you going to draw from this? Because if putting in the training is, uh, like pulling teeth, then it's not going to be something that you're going to find enjoyment from even with a good race result long-term. So at that point, it's probably more about finding another activity that gets your body moving, that you do enjoy doing on a day-to-day basis where the training becomes such an enjoyable part of your lifestyle that even if you have a bad race, you don't look back at it and think, "Well, I just wasted that last half year or third of a year."

   30. CWChris Williamson31:48

       It's hard to compete with somebody who's having fun.
6. 31:53 – 39:21

   The Competitive Advantage of Having Fun

   1. CWChris Williamson31:53

      having fun, right? Like it's a competitive advantage-

   2. ZBZach Bitter31:55

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson31:55

      ... to do the thing that to you feels like play and to everybody else looks like work.

   4. ZBZach Bitter32:00

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson32:00

      That's one of the things. Everybody likes the idea of the end result, uh, separate from the, uh, process that gets you there. Everyone likes the idea of being a rock star up on stage. Nobody likes the idea of five to 10 years during your teenage years playing, uh, sequences on the guitar over and over and over again or, like, obsessing over the way that your voice sounds or getting, going for vocal coaching three times a week for a decade or something, right?

   6. ZBZach Bitter32:27

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson32:27

      The same thing goes for podcasting. You know, lots and lots of people like the idea of doing a podcast, but you go, okay, y- y- you're going to have to research the absolute best people in a field within the space of a couple of days. They're going to have had their entire life to learn about this. You've got a couple of days to do it. And then as soon as you've done that, you have somebody else waiting in the wings like an endless conveyor belt that's just constantly coming around. Like is that... Do you like learning about stuff at a predefined cadence like running on a treadmill? 'Cause if you don't, th- that, that is what being a podcaster is, right?

   8. ZBZach Bitter32:58

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson32:59

      Like what being a podcaster is, is consistently learning about lots and lots of different things and then managing to try and coax that out of the expert that you're speaking to. And if you don't like the sound of that, then y- podcasting isn't for you. I know that you like the idea of that, the same as you like the idea of being a rock star, you like the idea of being an endurance runner, but if you don't want to go and do lots of training and get to sleep and miss out on social events and stop drinking and do all of that stuff, the same as learning how to play the guitar, the same as reading the books or doing the research and practicing on your diction and your conversation craft, e- e- the end result is moot because the journey to get there isn't something you're prepared to go through.

   10. ZBZach Bitter33:37

       Mm-hmm. Yeah. I remember before, before I kind of changed career paths and focused more on coaching and racing and stuff, uh, I was a school teacher, and, uh, I'd have, you know, students who would, you know, they'd, they generally wanted to be doing something other than being in school. (laughs) And, and some of it's not their fault, but, uh, they would... The stuff they'd want to do a lot of times were, you know, what most, you know, kids and teenagers want to do, like, "I want to go skateboarding. I want to, you know, play guitar," like you mentioned, and things like that. And, uh, eventually it would get to a point where you're just like, "Well, well, like what's your long-term plan with this particular thing?" And like, "Well, I want to be a professional at it." And if you want to be a professional at it, it's like you have to look at those examples like you described, and I would always share with them, um, Zakk Wylde, uh, the, the lead vocal and guitarist for, uh, Black Label Society, who, when he was in high school, would play guitar I think something like eight to 10 hours a day and would just be, like, super groggy during school because he was up all night basically playing guitar. But by the time he graduated high school, he was so good, he had, you know, guys like Ozzy Osbourne looking at him. And it's like, that's what you kind of got to do if you really want to be that guy standing on stage and, you know, playing lead guitar for Ozzy Osbourne or something like that. And, and obviously there's other off-ramps to success within those things that don't include being the best of the best, but these are things you probably want to think about as you're deciding, you know, is this something that I really want to spend my time and energy on versus the endless list of other things that are out there.

   11. CWChris Williamson35:12

       Yeah. And I think it's a good idea to have a couple of pursuits that you decide to try and be very, very good at. I think that makes a lot of sense. But you can't do that for everything.

   12. ZBZach Bitter35:21

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson35:21

       And trying to do that for everything is going to mean that the few things that you should be really focused on, that you could perhaps become the best in your county, city, country, world at, they're going to be diluted down by the fact that you're trying to spin a ton of different plates. But I don't think that it's a bad idea to recreationally have something that you want to do or to challenge yourself even once, you know, to say, look, I really, really feel like it would be very meaningful to me if I could run 100 miles. I, I, I don't think that I can do it, and yet it's going to be this transformational experience, that it's going to be interesting, and I'm going to learn a lot about it, and I'm going to do that. Like, that's a very different mindset than I'm going to try and live the life of a professional runner because I want to try and become the best in the world. And, you know, that can maybe even facilitate or improve the thing that you have decided to be really, really good at, whether that's running a business or being a parent or, you know, being a creator or whatever it is that you want to do. Um, I do think that you can facilitate that with stuff from outside of it, but this is the, the core concept of Greg McKeown's Essentialism where he says, look, there's maybe between one and three highest points of contribution that you have to the world. Everything else gets in the way. Like the ultimate productivity system, as far as I can see, is getting ruthlessly clear about what you want and then culling everything else that doesn't contribute to it. Now, running 100 miles might actually contribute to you being a really good businessman because it may teach you to overcome difficulty and to lean into discomfort and all that sort of stuff, right? But again, like if...... starting up knitting or something isn't facilitating the thing that you're supposed to do, it's taking away from it, maybe that's something that you need to question. And the same thing goes for whatever other pursuit you try and introduce into your life.

   14. ZBZach Bitter36:59

       Mm-hmm. Yeah. You, you hit it on the head, and I think it's the o- really interesting thing, I think, about ultra-marathoning and the 100-mile distance gets a lot of, like, spotlight for this, and part of it's probably just because it's, it does end up kind of putting a lot of people in this position where they have, like, it's long enough where there's just no way around some big ebbs and flows in kind of your, your mind, your s- your state of mind, and your state of how your body feels, that kind of almost is counterintuitive to you going in. And, and the best example is, like, there's, like, always gonna be a point in a 100-mile race, regardless of whether you're finishing very last in that group or in the very front, or somewhere in between, where you get to a point where you feel like you've hit rock bottom, and your mind immediately goes to this spot of, like, "If it's this bad now, how can I keep doing this and expect it not to get worse?" And if you let that continue to happen, y- your mind to keep going down that path, you're gonna drop out. But if you kind of, like, hunker down, focus on a short-term goal and get through that, it's amazing. Like, you might have, like, this scenario where five miles later you feel better than you did all day long and you're left there almost laughing at yourself, thinking, like, "How did I continue the activity that got me to feel that miserable, and the continuation of that activity actually now makes me feeling better than I've ever felt before in my life?" And you have all these experiences balled up into essentially one day. And it's just, like, you, you can almost live, like, a, a lifetime worth of emotions in one day, and the perspective you get from that is, like you said, it bleeds into everything. 'Cause then let's say you are really focused on a business that you started and the 100-mile thing is just, like, a, a side hobby that you're doing for fulfillment or for whatever reason, and now you're at a point in your business where you hit a very difficult obstacle and it's like, w- like, "What do you do?" And you think back to that experience you had running that 100-mile race and pushing through that, and you kind of leverage the same mindset, you leverage the same, like, visualization tactics, the same attitude and everything, and then you end up breaking through that and you have a similar experience of, "Oh, now I hit a new height with my business. We've took this to another stage," or, you know, you, another benchmark is met and things like that, and then you laugh at yourself for thinking that you weren't able to do it, like, earlier on, and it's just a really kind of rewarding experience, I think.

   15. CWChris Williamson39:20

       Can

7. 39:21 – 50:00

   Emotional & Physical Phases of a 100-Mile Run

   1. CWChris Williamson39:21

      you try and explain the, uh, typical emotions over 100 miles from start until finish for those of us that don't intend on running it?

   2. ZBZach Bitter39:31

      Sure, yeah. Um, I, the way I usually kind of think about it is, like, you're gonna have... Essentially, for me, it's like the first about 30 miles feels pretty good, because I have to be running slow enough that it's sustainable for 100 miles. I've typically been doing, like, my long runs up to about that distance, so it's something my body's still familiar with. The intensity is low enough where, you know, I'm not feeling a ton of wear and tear yet. And getting to that feels almost like a snap of the fingers. Like, uh, you get to, I get to 30 miles and I, like, look back, it's like, "Wow, it feels like I just started." And then you start to kind of get into this phase where if you give it opportunity to think about, you think, "Okay, well, I got 30 miles in my legs. That's the longest long run I did during the build-up. I got 70 miles to go." And that kind of plants a bit of a seed of doubt. So now you're thinking, "Can I do this two more times and then some? What happens if, you know, I start feeling more miserable by 40, am I gonna be able to do 60 more miles?" And you start kind of getting that, like, negative spiral. So that's where I typically have to start kind of focusing on, like, positive self-talk and thinking about, uh, how do I get myself to think about the next goal and block out the end goal, at least until it becomes time to focus on that. So usually I'm kind of, like, really kind of starting that mindset from between miles 30 to 40, where I'm focusing on consciously minimizing my targets and getting to them versus thinking too far ahead, and then when I get to the next one, picking the next one. And then there's some kind of, like, basic benchmarks that I like to use. One is, like, 50 miles. It's halfway there. Uh, it's also a race distance that I've done a few times in the past, so I have some precedent in terms of, like, what I'm capable of doing in that time or that distance, versus where I'm doing for the pacing so you c- can kind of normalize, "Okay, I'm, I'm where I need to be. I'm not being too aggressive. I'm not being too slow. This is, this checks out." So then that's kind of a good goal to get to. Next one is kind of, like, 100 kilometers. I like to kind of start focusing on that one after I've crossed the halfway mark, because again, it's another race distance I've done a few times and have some perspective of how I should feel relative to, like, going on all-out effort there, and start kind of using those as kind of, like, positive things to get to. Once I get to around 100 kilometers, then I'm within, like, you know, five to ten miles of the longest long run I got to. So then my next goal is get to within the longest long run you did for that build-up, and then you just have one more long run too. So when I can get to that spot, if I've taken care of myself properly that day and I'm in a good, like, headspace, then I can almost forget about doing 100 miles and start thinking about, "I just got one more long run, which is gonna be, uh, you know, something I've done six to eight times, at least, going into this race." And that just becomes something I can easily wrap my head around comparatively. And, uh, you know, you're gonna still probably hit some rough spots in there, but kind of keeping that in the back of your mind, as well as any, like, mini benchmarks. I like to be a little more, like, present with my goals at that point, because you do, are gonna, you are gonna get a variety of different experiences from that last part. So, like, determining like, "Am I gonna focus on just getting the next two miles done or am I gonna focus on a bigger chunk?" is something I'll usually leave to race day in that part. But I'll definitely be leaning on kind of that mindset stuff I talked about before with the long-run development, where I'm thinking about, like, the various stages in there, uh, and, like, what I need to do when I have a, have a negative self, self, uh, self-thought kind of come in. And the, the part that makes it really interesting is there's always a race...... that you do where you kind of push past some discomfort or a mental block that you hadn't done before. And you have this realization of, like, you start second guessing your, your, your mental strength or willpower in previous ones 'cause you, now you've kind of redefined what you're capable of, and you start wondering, "Was it my mind that limited me before that didn't get me there? Or was I actually just not physically able to do this yet at that point?" And I think in most cases it's the mental side of things, and, uh, that can be both fulfilling and a little, uh, d- depressing depending on how you process it. So yeah, I think you have to be kind of careful, especially post-race then too as going through the mindset of, like, you know, if you achieve something you never have before, not to kind of be hard on yourself for prior attempts and stuff like that.

   3. CWChris Williamson43:54

      Yeah, for having never done it before.

   4. ZBZach Bitter43:56

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson43:56

      Dude, that's such an interesting thought pattern. I'm really glad you brought it up. The fact that a success in one moment can highlight your failures previously, and you can almost tarnish the thing that you're really proud of in the moment-

   6. ZBZach Bitter44:09

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson44:09

      ... by using that as a retrospective benchmark to gauge all of the things when you, all the times when you didn't do that previously. It's so interesting.

   8. ZBZach Bitter44:19

      Mm-hmm. And I think it's, there's also like a, something I've, I've thought about before and said is just, like, there's really no such thing as a perfect 100 miler, 'cause it's just too long. There's gonna be a mistake or something happens that you didn't anticipate, or if you did anticipate it, you were hoping it, for it not to happen and then it does. And it's a little, like, nebulous as to how that impacts your final time, but y- when you walk away from the event itself, you c- if you, if you really review everything, you can find a few places where it's like, "Well if I had done that a little differently, I'd maybe save myself a minute or two." So there's almost this, like, this endless target of, like, what you're capable of, so I think there is, and, and perhaps this is me coping (laughs) but, like, perhaps there is, like, some, some value in just acknowledging that when you're doing something as long as 100 miles, there's really no way that every piece to that puzzle fits absolutely perfectly, and there is no uncertainty throughout it. Uh, so you, at a certain point, you have to say, "Hey, I minimized the number of mistakes and I responded to the uncertainty as best I could, and that's what produced perfection for what I can, can expect out of this type of a project."

   9. CWChris Williamson45:30

      How much discomfort do you go through, 'cause, you know, for me, somebody who, if I had to run five miles, uh, that would be pretty ugly to me. Um, even with all of the training and even with all of the preparation, pain and discomfort, how much does that play into 100 miles as a limiting factor?

   10. ZBZach Bitter45:51

       Yeah. I think the interesting thing, 'cause I always try to compare this to, like, earlier in my life, 'cause when I got into running, I was doing more standard distance stuff like 5Ks, 10Ks, and it's really interesting to me because with those type of endurance events, there's like a sharper pain that you have to kind of white knuckle through for however long it takes you, 15 minutes, 30 minutes, whatever it happens to be. And that's just, like, a different type of discomfort. It's like a really sharp, acute discomfort versus in ultra running, it's like nothing really, unless you really get hurt by, like, falling or something like that, I guess. Like, nothing really hurts, like, super sharp where you feel like it's, like, a stabbing pain, but there's, like, this low level of discomfort that kind of arrives somewhere around, like, the point where you get to your longest long run, and it kind of just, like, stays there and it doesn't go away. So you have this, like, low level discomfort that just eats away at you. And, like, every hour, every minute that goes by, it's, like, just one more hour, one more minute that you had to tolerate that low level of discomfort. And I think that's really the big thing you have to get over is physically you could often push through a lot of that, but do you have the mental currency to be able to actually kind of consciously say, "This is uncomfortable. I've been managing this discomfort for X number of hours already. I can do it for X number more in order to get to that finish line." And, and this maybe goes into, like, what I was just talking about where inevitably during that timeframe, there's gonna be some moments where you're like, "I don't know if I can do this." And perhaps that slows you down for a little bit or causes you to take a break that you maybe didn't necessarily actually need to take that kind of adds up to the, the totality of the experience. Um, but yeah, that's kind of a, it's an interesting question 'cause it's like the day after, walking down the stairs, there's some sharp pain for sure. (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson47:45

       (laughs)

   12. ZBZach Bitter47:45

       But in the moment, it's like, it's, it really is, I think, just like, you know, this big, like, like this long, like, like subtle discomfort that you just have to be able to, you know, in your mind you feel like it's never gonna turn off, and just, like, the prospect of living through that for however long it happens to be is, can get very overwhelming, and that's where I think people usually hit a, hit a roadblock and, and sometimes drop out.

   13. CWChris Williamson48:10

       I think you're right by making the comparison between shorter runs that do have a more acute, sharp pain to them because that's what most people have done. Most people don't-

   14. ZBZach Bitter48:20

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson48:20

       ... have a 12-hour or 24-hour event of consistent but prepared low level discomfort that slowly gets worse over time. Uh, so what I'm doing is I'm, uh, extrapolating out, like, running cos- cross-country when I was in school or something.

   16. ZBZach Bitter48:37

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson48:37

       I'm thinking, "God, how hard was that? Oh God, imagine if that was what it was like." Or you're doing a F- Fran in CrossFit, you go, it's a seven-minute workout.

   18. ZBZach Bitter48:46

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson48:46

       It's not that bad. Did you see that the, uh, rowing erg, the C2 rowing erg 5K record just got broken this week?

   20. ZBZach Bitter48:56

       No.

   21. CWChris Williamson48:57

       Homeboy held a 1:53 for five kilometers.

   22. ZBZach Bitter49:04

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson49:04

       A 1:53, uh, 1K split. That's just-... straight up disgusting.

   24. ZBZach Bitter49:11

       Yeah, he, he was probably a puddle on the floor after that. (laughs)

   25. CWChris Williamson49:14

       He looked, he looked pretty happy in the photo.

   26. ZBZach Bitter49:16

       (laughs)

   27. CWChris Williamson49:16

       But, uh, yeah, just wild. And that's the sort of thing, especially if you've ever seen the, the 2K record, which I think is kind of like the gold standard for, for the ERG. Um, you look at those guys, and that is w- you know, that's, that's all out effort.

   28. ZBZach Bitter49:31

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson49:31

       There is, there is r- tiny little bit of pacing, I suppose, within the first half, and then after that they're just stamping on the face of whoever it is that they hate the most in the world-

   30. ZBZach Bitter49:43

       Yeah. (laughs)
8. 50:00 – 56:05

   Knowing How to Push Harder

   1. CWChris Williamson50:00

      that there's not so much left in the tank, that even if you decided to put the hammer down as hard as you could mile 97 to 100, uh, how much of a difference can you even make to your pace when you, like if you decide to completely empty it? H- uh, is there some limitations in there with regards to fatigue and nutrition and, and hydration and stuff like that?

   2. ZBZach Bitter50:21

      Yeah, I actually think hydration and nutrition is probably the bigger piece to that puzzle, 'cause, you know, as you get, as you start depleting your muscle glycogen, I think once you get around about 40% of the capacity is when your body starts kind of increasing the perceived effort at a given intensity. So, you have this situation where, like, if you find yourself at mile 97 and you're, like, flirting with that number, you just might not have, like, y- the, like, to push as hard... If you push as hard as you would to produce whatever fastest time you could run in that distance, that level of discomfort's just gonna produce a much sh- slower time. So, if you can stay, like, as hydrated and fueled as possible, which is impossible actually. Like, there, you can't actually consume enough fuel or stay hydrated enough. You're gonna have at least some depreciation there that takes a certain amount of intensity off the table at the end there. Uh, so then it becomes, like, a best of the worst type of a scenario, where you wanna do as good a job as staying as hydrated and as well fueled as you can, but know that you're probably not going to be able to do, do it as perfectly as you would as, like, when you start a 5K and you're, have full muscle glycogen and completely hydrated. So, I think that's a big limiter there. Um, I also think it's just, like, mental fatigue too, because you get to these, like, you described it perfectly when you said, like, when you're doing, like, this fast, like, uh, like, rowing ERG or, like, like, 3K or 5K race, you are at a point where, like, the intensity picks up, where you, you tunnel vision in, and you really can't even process any other information other than, like, push, push, push. That's like all you can really think about. Whereas when you're at the, in 100-mile race, it's slow enough and that pain is dull enough that you can think of a variety of different things, and that can either work for you or against you. So, like, if you allow the thoughts to be like, "I can't do this. There's no way I can go any faster. Uh, I'm at my limit," then you just defined your limit. If you say that, if you c- go into that and you're thinking, "I can go 10 seconds per mile faster. Let's try it," and then you tempt that, and then you try a little more, a little more, you know, you, you can think about these things and you have the opportunity to actually have a conversation in your head, where I just don't think you can do that with the shorter endurance events. Like, the conversation is basically, like, go or don't go, and that's all the further it can really get.

   3. CWChris Williamson52:43

      This is why I think the Tour de France is so compelling, because you get to see the discomfort and the struggle on the faces of the riders, right, every single day-

   4. ZBZach Bitter52:53

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson52:53

      ... or every single stage. And you get to watch the, the battle between them and themselves, them and their discomfort, right?

   6. ZBZach Bitter53:03

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson53:03

      Especially on the hill climbs. And that's why it's so compelling. That's why I love watching it. It's why I also love watching the longer CrossFit events. The short ones are fun or whatever, but I much prefer watching the longer ones 'cause you get to see outwardly what's happening, a representation of what's happening inwardly, right?

   8. ZBZach Bitter53:19

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson53:19

      The self-talk, the "I can or can't do this." "Oh, he's put the bar down." What does him putting the bar down mean? Has he wanted to or is he getting angry or is he doing whatever? I had, um, Eddie Jones, who's the England head rugby coach, right? So we've got the, um, World Cup 2023 coming up next year. He'll be the guy that leads England's World Cup hopes hopefully for that. And, uh, he was d- telling me this story about when he goes to go and see players, um, he's scouting players in the England club, the, uh, Premier League for rugby, and he'll go and watch from before the game begins, from way before the game begins. And I asked him what he looks for in the players that are the absolute best that he's considering bringing into the squad. And he said, "Well, obviously they need to perform well," right? "Th- they need to be able to play the game of rugby, but that's kind of par for the course. I already know that that's something they're going to do. So that's a bit of the focus. But most of the focus is actually on the way that they interact with the training staff before and after the game, the way that they-"

   10. ZBZach Bitter54:16

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson54:17

       "... help or don't help the other players during that. What are they like as a teammate? If the game's going well, what's their body language like? If the game's going badly, what's their body language like? If they make a mistake, what's their self-talk like? What's their posture like? How are they dealing with the discomfort of something being on their side or not being on their side? How much are they looking to the coaches for advice and how much are they continuing to just stick to their own game plan?" He really wants people to be, um, like solitary, uh, lone rangers, uh, and a, a self-contained unit within the team. He doesn't want them to be relying on the coaching staff. He wants them to be very much sort of, like, sovereign individuals when it comes to that. I, I, I just thought that was a really interesting way to look at things, where you think, "Well, huh, that's, that's kind of interesting that it's, it's less about the performance and more about the stuff that isn't the performance, because that tells you what is impacting the performance, right?" Where is that coming from? How is this person performing or not? Oh, well, a lot of that might be due to their self-talk, and I can see that easily when the other team scores a try or when they just miss their most recent kick or their penalty-

   12. ZBZach Bitter55:18

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson55:18

       ... or whatever. It's pretty interesting.

   14. ZBZach Bitter55:21

       Yeah. Yeah, it seems like an- any of these sports you get into, like, I find that fascinating 'cause it's like, I think it's valuable for anybody to have, like, a deep dive into something physical like that so you understand, like, all those details, because they're, they're kind of universal for all of 'em at the end of the day. But if you, you don't know what you don't know, so, like, if I'm a casual observer just watching th- the rugby game, I don't know anything other than maybe a layer deep. Uh, but if I've done another sport where I've gone multiple layers deep, I can assume there's got to be some really cool things going on back here. And that kind of, I think, just spurs the curiosity of learning more about, like, why they're doing what they're doing, and it adds a little more excitement to, like, the viewing side of things.

   15. CWChris Williamson56:04

       Zach Bitter, ladies and

9. 56:05 – 56:54

   Where to Find Zach

   1. CWChris Williamson56:05

      gentlemen. If people want to keep up to date with what you're doing, where should they go?

   2. ZBZach Bitter56:08

      So, the easiest spot is my website at zachbitter.com, just Z-A-C-H-B-I-T-T-E-R.com, and that's got links to everything from my podcast, social media channels, and things like that.

   3. CWChris Williamson56:17

      Is there anywhere that people can watch the race that you're doing? Is that gonna be broadcast or no?

   4. ZBZach Bitter56:22

      Yeah, that's usually live-streamed. I don't think they've announced where it is yet, but, uh, if, if folks check on my Instagram page, I'll be putting updates on there with live tracking and things like that as well.

   5. CWChris Williamson56:31

      Dope. Good luck, man. I'm rooting for you.

   6. ZBZach Bitter56:33

      Thanks a bunch. It was a blast have- coming on the show.

   7. CWChris Williamson56:36

      Well, that's happening, people. Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe. Peace.

Episode duration: 56:54