The Neuroscience Of Meditation - Steven Laureys | Modern Wisdom Podcast 318

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   Sometimes I, I hear…

   1. SLSteven Laureys0:00

      Sometimes I, I hear from colleagues, like, "We've got it all explained." And, and nothing is, is further from the truth. We don't understand how from something material, an object like this, something immaterial, thoughts, perceptions, emotions, arise.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:16

      (wind blowing) Why are you studying something as fluffy as meditation as a neuroscientist?

   3. SLSteven Laureys0:25

      (laughs) It's a very good first question. Actually, I never, ever thought I would be giving a podcast interview like this one on a subject that I considered indeed as fluffy, esoteric, whatever, um, definitely not evidence-based. Uh, remember a journalist, uh, as a medical doctor, uh, specializing in the study of consciousness and the damaged brain, I did my PhD thesis, and that was in 2010. Uh, shortly after, a journalist asked me, "Well, what do you think, uh, about mindfulness?" And I remember at the time, that's the scientist in me checking quickly, well, what's been published? And I wasn't convinced. So I, I, I really, um ... a lot has happened since then, uh, and here I am now as a neurologist, uh, prescribing, uh, meditation in my consultation as a scientist studying, um, what's happening in, in the mind of, of, uh, these guys who are experts in meditation. Also personally, I think I, I enjoyed the benefits, even if definitely I'm not a, a Zen master at all.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:38

      Why? Why? What's drawn you to this interest?

   5. SLSteven Laureys1:42

      Well, uh, as, as is often the case, I think, and I also see it in, in, in the patients, uh, I see in the outpatient clinic, it was a personal crisis. So, um, we ... the details are in the book, but very shortly, uh, 2012, um, I suddenly was, uh, dad alone with the three young kids. Um, and not feeling well, uh, feeling anxious about how I would deal with that, feeling also guilty, how could this happen, you know? You have this little voice in your head, probably sounds familiar. And so, of course, you can't change the past and you're worrying about the future, and, uh, then other things are, uh, happening. I was smoking a lot, I was drinking. The psychiatrist prescribed me sleeping pills, antidepressants. And it was, it was clear that this wasn't the inspiring dad I wanted to be. So I started doing yoga. Um, but then it was, um, meeting a Buddhist monk in Paris where I gave a TEDx 2013 about my area of expertise, which is, uh, the damaged brain and changes in consciousness. And Matthieu Ricard, um, translator of the Dalai Lama, talked about his area of expertise, meditation, compassion. And I still don't know why, but, uh, very quickly, uh, we, we got along well. And he said, well ... obviously, I, I, I, he felt I, I wasn't, uh, well, and said, "Come with me. I'm, I'm going on this retreat." And, uh, that was the first retreat organized by Mind and Life Europe, a beautiful, um, German monastery. And that was for me a new world. Um, and so I said to him, "Well, you come to my lab in Belgium, Liège, as a guinea pig." And, and so it happened. And, and yeah, a new area of research, uh, started.

   6. CWChris Williamson3:50

      What does the quote, "It is not reality that matters, it is the way you experience reality," mean to you?

   7. SLSteven Laureys3:57

      It's ... uh, o- of course it's true, right? Uh, yet the challenge is to, to really, you know, um, somehow learn to, um ... you need to realize that indeed it's, it's your mind, uh, giving you these perceptions, thoughts, emotions. Uh, that's what's really important. And, and so I, of course, knew that as, as, um, a neurologist, uh, seeing all these families, uh, who lost their loved one. And so our expertise is traumatic brain injury. So from one moment to the other, life is, is different. And, and, um, so, so then you, you, you understand what's truly important. Uh, but, but to me, this is, this is really an important lesson, that of course, you c- can't change, uh, everything. And it's very clear also now with COVID, you know, there's a couple of things just happening to us. And then there's things that where we can, of course, um, you know, have an influence and, and change and, and, uh, work on those things. And the rest we just, um, can somehow learn to accept them. And, and for me, that was a, a personal, um, uh, discovery and, and, and still working on that. Uh, so definitely, I think it's, it's, it's a powerful true quote.

   8. CWChris Williamson5:38

      It seems to have, uh, it- it's the epicenter of a lot of other different modes of thinking, right? So you have the dichotomy of control or the stoic fork from stoicism, uh, the sort of CBT as well, I suppose, reminds you where the boundaries lie with regards to what you can and can't control. Then you look at, um ... who wrote Man's Search for Meaning? Viktor Frankl. You talk about Viktor Frankl, man's sort of final bastion is his ability to respond however he chooses to in any given situation. And, um, yeah, realizing that the problem is not the problem, your thoughts about the problem are the problem. Realizing that and fully internalizing that is a...... it's a, a life-changing moment, I think, but one that we, we constantly want to try and resist for some reason.

   9. SLSteven Laureys6:29

      Yeah. Yeah. And, and maybe also, um... so of course, y- you know, uh, sometimes I just see patients where I think, "Well, I don't know what to say," because they, they, they lost a child and then I discuss with them and they say, "Well, you know, our other daughter committed suicide, and then this happened." Th- there are so many things that you say, "How is this possible?" Okay, so of course, um, it, it, it is important and, and we need to acknowledge, you know, things that are thrown at us professionally, personally, um, but then truly we can, we can have an impact. "Okay, what do I do, um, with, with all of this?" And, um, somehow, uh, it's a bit strange that we, we need to find it out, uh, and it's a trial and error thing. Uh, why not talk about this at school? I mean, um, it's so important. It's, it's something, again, I see in consultation people with anxiety, depression, burnout, um, and how come we kind of, um, neglect our emotional wellbeing, how we can deal with everything that's happening to us? We have, um, teachers, uh, you know, um, working on, on our physical wellbeing and, and gymnastics, and it's part of the, um, curriculum, and, and to me it's possible to, to have something similar, but, but, you know, teachers, uh, who can help us to deal with our emotional wellbeing. And so I think meditation should be taught at school.

   10. CWChris Williamson8:15

       It's a interesting thing to think about, that we are thrust into the world as adults, having to deal with the vicissitudes of life and the inevitable challenges of the death of ourselves and everyone that we love if that doesn't happen before us, and we are given essentially zero tools by the formal education system-

   11. SLSteven Laureys8:37

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson8:37

       ... to be able to deal with that. Nothing.

   13. SLSteven Laureys8:39

       Yeah.

   14. CWChris Williamson8:39

       Nothing.

   15. SLSteven Laureys8:39

       Yeah. Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson8:39

       A- all of the mindfulness practices, any semblance of rationality that I have managed to develop have been completely self-taught or learned outside of that formal education system. And I was in full-time education for 18 years, up to a master's level. Not once did anyone teach me about how emotions work, about what the nature of consciousness is, about how to look at the texture of my own mind, about how to separate what is happening from what I am feeling and so on and so forth. So yeah, I, um... th- this is a entire other, uh, branch to go down, but I think that there is so much dissatisfaction with the education system wholesale at the moment, that it's a matter of time before that becomes the majority and that pressure is going to cause... I know that mindfulness is already being taught in, in many schools, um, but even more so than that, talking about time management skills, talking about to-do list management and productivity skills, general life skills, communication, relationship management, sex education that doesn't teach you things like the vulva. I don't even know what a vulva is. But, you know, things that actually matter. Um, so yes, I'm confident for that. But today, I want to go through the neuroscience of meditation. You are a man who's had some of the, the equivalent of the heavyweight world champions of meditation in your lab.

   17. SLSteven Laureys10:02

       (laughs) Right.

   18. CWChris Williamson10:03

       And you've strapped them into those strange looking sort of skullcap things that are behind you on the shelf. Yeah. For the people that are listening, it looks like what you would imagine a peasant from sort of the, the Middle Ages wearing, uh, but th- that's been thrown into machines. So, to start off with, how would you characterize the state of the brain in a non-meditator as they just go about their day?

   19. SLSteven Laureys10:28

       So, um, somehow this is what we've been studying for the past 25 years, right? So, so our area of expertise is the damaged brain, and, and we're, um, confronted with people who are comatose and who survive these very severe brain damages, and then asking the question, "Well, are there any thoughts or perceptions or emotions?" Um, but meditation is really all about that. It's about the little voice in your head. Um, if I would shut up now and, um, th- people listening would, would experience these thoughts, the continuous stream of consciousness, jumping from one thing to the other. Um, and we start to understand it a little bit better. So with the team, we, um, identified two networks of consciousness. One is sensory perceptual awareness. That's everything that you hear and see right now. Everything coming through your senses would basically depend on a fronto-parietal, um, what we call neuronal workspace. And then there's the other component, um, internal awareness. The little voice in your head that permits you to do mental imagery. The brain is a prediction machine. It's very powerful. You can anticipate. So that's another network more, um, in the middle of the brain, front and back, um, also called the default mode network. So, important for these, these thoughts that can, of course, also, you know, um, spin out of control, making you, um, anxious, uh, sometimes, uh, drive you crazy, keep you from, uh, uh, having, um, good sleep. So...Yeah, that's, that's what the brain does. And actually we know it even is the case in the damaged brain after coma. We- we've seen with these brain scans there is still, uh, some workings of the mind and brain, even in, um, general anesthetics, uh, when you're sleeping. So you need to be brain dead really to have it, um, completely silent. And meditation-

   20. CWChris Williamson12:47

       You're telling me that that's, that's the only way, to be brain dead is the only way to finally escape my thoughts?

   21. SLSteven Laureys12:52

       Well, I, I discussed this with the Dalai Lama, so thanks to Matthieu Ricard, my good friend, I had the opportunity to spend, uh, a day and, and meet a couple of times Dalai Lama, who's incredibly inspiring, right? Uh, but even these, these top athletes as you call them, um, you know, they have thoughts. Uh, yet they have learn through tens of thousands of hours of medica- meditation to, uh, kind of observe them. And I think that's the trick, so you just learn to focus your attention. And m- meditation to me is about, um, training your mind, it's mental gymnastics. There's different ways to do it. Attention is a key word. You can have your attention focused on your breathing, an object, whatever, your mantra, um, and, and that's very powerful. You can also do it not just with thoughts but with emotions. That's the favorite, um, meditation exercise of Matthieu Ricard. It's, it's training, um, empathy, compassion. So the brain of course we now know in neuroscience is, is not fixed, you know? There's the whole field of, of neuroplasticity. It's permanently changing, and so we can and maybe we should play a more active role there.

   22. CWChris Williamson14:10

       I discovered upon reading your book that it was only until recently ago that we knew... or, uh, uh, recently in relative terms, scientists thought that all of the neurons that you had were present at birth, and it's only recently that neuroplasticity and the ability to change the brain. I suppose that before that, justifying why someone should meditate if there's not going to be any physical changes to the brain becomes a much harder sell, but after that you can say, "Well, actually look, we can see what's going on." And that's... You, you go through, um, a process of focused attention meditation that you've done under your imaging. Can you take us through the process of what happens, the focus, the distraction, and, and how that sort of manifests neurologically?

   23. SLSteven Laureys14:52

       Yeah. So, um, it, it... That's exactly the exercise. So you can compare it somehow to sports,

2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Isn't it crazy that…

   1. SLSteven Laureys15:00

      right? You can take a weight and, and train your biceps, and, uh, you will actually see its increase in volume. It's a bit harder to see what's happening in your, in your brain, right? But these brain scans show that the exercise is actually you, um, focusing your attention let's say to your breathing, and then a thought would, uh, come up. And, and you would observe that, you know, you're losing the attention, and you just bring it back to the object here, uh, your breathing. And that circle of always bringing back attention and the networks, uh, involved is exactly what we see with both functional MRI or what you see behind me, these EEG machines measuring electrical activity of the brain. Um, and so depending on the exercise you do, here training the attention networks you really see those parts of the brain actually become thicker. That's what we saw in these, uh, Buddhist monks, and the connections, the pathways, um, becoming thicker, stronger, more efficient. And a more connected brain is a more efficient brain. So that was for me as a scientist, um, such an eye-opener to see with these objective measures when people like Matthieu Ricard and other monks were in the machines, how they had a very, um, efficient and direct control on their thoughts, perceptions, emotions, and how we could actually see it with the machines. And that what, that's what we, uh, published.

   2. CWChris Williamson16:43

      Isn't it crazy that if somehow the work that we did internally on our brains was shown externally, Matthieu Ricard and the Dalai Lama would be walking around like professional bodybuilders? They'd look like these hulking sort of monsters of muscle and mass.

   3. SLSteven Laureys17:01

      (laughs) Yeah, right. And so for us of course it's, it's interesting to look at those extremes. Now I'm not a Buddhist. Uh, I'm not a monk. Uh, and, and I, I actually... When, when, um, the publisher, uh, the book company asked me to write a book about meditation, I said, "Well, you know, who am I?" Uh, um, and then somehow, uh, yes, I, I thought, well, if I can do it, uh, with my, you know, as a control freak, I'm such a nervous personality, anyone can do it. And, and also I thought a, a number of books that I, I read, uh, somehow for me were quite demanding. And, and also, um, there's the... often the Buddhist angle, right? And, and as my wife says... When, when Matthieu comes he always would stay at home. And she said, "Well, it's easy for him to be zen, you know? He has no partner, um, no job and all the pressure, no kids."

   4. CWChris Williamson17:58

      Is she blaming her lack of mindfulness on you, Steven?

   5. SLSteven Laureys18:02

      (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson18:02

      I think you, you... That might be a low-key dig.

   7. SLSteven Laureys18:05

      But I, I (laughs) ... Maybe, maybe. But, but it's true, you know? We, we have a life very different from these Buddhist monks, right? So, uh, how do we do it? And I think that, um, maybe we sometimes are too demanding, uh, you know, both, um, for others and ourselves. And, and so I just wanted to, uh, propose something that, that is, is, um-... easy to do when you have the formal exercises. And so it's good to, you know, go, um, on your, uh, mat and sit for 10, 20 minutes, whatever, um, in, in, in your, uh, meditation, uh, posture. But what do you do the rest of the day? Right? So, so, uh, I figured out that there is many ways to, to, uh, do meditation. And sometimes we just do it without explicitly calling it meditation, when you're running, when you're... And, and so to me that was, um, a very good way actually to, to have, uh, the, the, the positive effects when in my consultation. And, and there's a lot of things there, dramatic as, as we said, people losing their loved one and so on. Between two patients, families, I would just, um, take a couple of deep breaths. And, and maybe the first one is the most difficult one, where you just (inhales deeply) refocus. You, you, you offer yourself a pause. But you can do that on the train, in, in, you know, the grocery store when you're queuing. Uh, so, so that, uh, kind of ... And I'm not a Zen master. Ask my wife and kids. Uh, but, but it can really make a difference to, to be in the moment, to, uh, observe those thoughts, those emotions, and somehow we create it all in our mind, right? And so we, we have all these things going on and then we lose ourselves in it, and, uh, you can just train it. And, and, and I think that's, that's good for, for my work as a, as a medical doctor, as a, um, director here of, of, of the lab at the university, which is also very competitive, um, and, and within my, my relation. Uh, so that's what I wanted to, to share. Uh, if I can do it, anyone can do it.

   8. CWChris Williamson20:30

      So that's an interesting state change, right? What happens acutely around the practice of meditation. You get this parasympathetic response, especially if you're combining it with the breathing, so on and so forth. A lot of the people that are listening will probably be at least familiar with having tried meditation and maybe to get into it. Um, can you walk us through the effects of longstanding meditation practices in the brain? How's that characterized? What, what happens when you put someone like Matthieu Ricard or I guess you haven't had the Dalai Lama in, but when you get these expert, these expert meditators-

   9. SLSteven Laureys21:04

      He's invited. (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson21:05

       Is he? Well, if he's listening, if he's listening-

   11. SLSteven Laureys21:07

       (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson21:07

       ... tell him, tell him to hurry up. And he can stay at your, he can stay at yours with your wife. Um, but yeah, wh- wha- what's the characteristic of, of their sort of brain? How do they look?

   13. SLSteven Laureys21:16

       So absolutely right, Chris. When you take a couple of breaths, uh, you will just feel, right, that there is a direct effect. Your, uh, heart rate goes down, blood pressure, uh, your stress hormones, if you would measure them, cortisol, noradrenaline. And then long-term effects, um, and not, of course not only in these monks, studies have shown that if, uh, you start doing this, after eight weeks, we would see also in, in your brain, uh, structural changes. So this is a 3D print of the brain of Matthieu Ricard. He's a little bit with us, um, today. If we measure the gray matter volume, so the, these billions of brain cells, neurons, those, uh, specific parts of the attentional network, um, regions like the hippocampus here, deep in, in the temporal lobe, would really show an increase in volume. So we can measure that and we control for a number of confounding factors. Um, structures like prefrontal areas, anterior cingulate cortex, so areas of the brain involved in attentional control, emotional control, they really change, um, their volume and their connectivity, because that's the strength of the brain, right? These billions of neurons, uh, are talking to each other. So that's through the, um, white matter tracts, which is something I can show you here. It's an image we're not used to see. So this is, again, the brain of Matthieu, but now we look inside. So these are the thousands of billions of, um, connections. And we would, for example, see, um, the tracts connecting the left and the right hemisphere. And so if you meditate, there's more of these big, uh, highways permitting both parts of the brain to, to, uh, work together. So that's what we would really see, structural changes in the brain when you do meditation.

   14. CWChris Williamson23:24

       And that's reflected in a phenomenological change in the texture of the mind, right? This isn't just like having bigger muscles. It's bigger muscles that can lift heavier weight.

   15. SLSteven Laureys23:34

       Yeah. Absolutely. So, so I think, um, we can all benefit from this. No need, of course, to, uh ... It's, it's again, like sport. You know, you, you don't need to run an Ironman. Already if you go for your jogging on Sundays, this is a good thing. Probably we don't, uh, move enough. And so just to have more attention, not just for your physical well-being, but also your mental well-being, I, I think is, is worth talking about. And, and, um, for, for all of us ... For, for myself as a caregiver, it's, it's really strange. I'm supposed to take care of others, but somehow I, I was never taught how to take care of myself. And, um, my, my job, I'm, I'm at risk for burnout. I've got two colleagues who committed suicide. We know this for so long. And as you say, there's all these wonderful initiatives on mindfulness and ... but nothing really structural that is part of the curriculum. And I think that that can and, and should change.

   16. CWChris Williamson24:34

       Have you looked at how different volumes of meditation track with changes in the brain over time? So have you looked at somebody, say, who's done 1,000 sessions, 5,000 sessions, 10,000 sessions? Have you been able to have a look at, at that?

   17. SLSteven Laureys24:51

       So, uh, there's a number of really good, uh, labs worldwide looking at those kind of, uh, longitudinal, uh, effects. Uh, people like Tania Singer in, um, Germany, who are really following over time cohorts of people who start to meditate using all these brain scans and showing that, yes, um, practice makes perfect. But it's not about being perfect. It's already about, you know, um, going through this personal journey. And it's, it's, it's a challenge, of course, for us. It's way easier to show that one or the other pill, right? Anxiolytic or antidepressant or painkiller has an effect compared to a placebo, um, and I would prescribe for everyone the same, um, whatever drug and, and, um, see the effect. Here, it's, it's, it's more of a challenge because how do you meditate? Uh, there's a lot of variability there. And yet, as you just, uh, said, there are these studies showing the correlation about what you're doing and what's happening in your mind and brain.

   18. CWChris Williamson26:01

       It's such a shame that our internal state is hidden from us, right? Like, as a practiced meditator, both of us will be familiar with finishing a session and not really knowing if we did well or badly, and then reminding ourselves that having any sort of judgment about our sit is negative in any case, and I need to return to the equanimity and da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da, so on and so forth. Um, but it, it's significantly easier if you're a powerlifter and there's 250 kilos on the floor. You know it's on the floor, you know how heavy it is, you know if you've picked it up. It's a very binary con- win or loss game, right? Uh, how many times did the ball go in the net? How many hoops did you get the ball through, et cetera, et cetera. Um, I think that's, that's definitely one of the challenges or one of the resistances that people have to meditation, that it is inherently so murky to ourselves. The success metrics which everybody gamifies everything now, right? How many followers do you have on Instagram? Your, how many steps did you do today? How many calories did you burn? We want that objective metric of success. And, um, I'm not a massive fan of Muse and other similar products. I've used them for a very long time, and I, I, personally for me, they, they, they just don't seem to get at what meditation is supposed to be about. But yes, I appreciate, I appreciate that's the case. Did you, here's another thing that, uh, I'm intrigued to know. Have you looked at the optimal session length for achieving returns? I imagine that there must be a point at which the returns in terms of brain change become to diminish, but I'm familiar with a bunch of different, um, meditators who talk about the first 10 to 15 minutes of some sits essentially be you settling into the sit itself. There's advocates out there who would say that, "Yes, get your five minutes in whenever you can," and I agree, but there must also be an optimal amount of time. Have you had a look at that?

   19. SLSteven Laureys28:00

       Uh, y- yes, but I, I, I think, um, it's, it's a challenging question, right? It depends why do you meditate, okay? So what are your needs? Um, maybe we should clearly separate if you have a medical problem, if you have one or the other symptoms that, you know, um, you can't work properly or function, then go talk to your, uh, medical practitioner and he will send you, if need be, to a psychologist or, uh, do, uh, other tests. That, that's one thing. The other, of course, it's why wait? Many of my patients say, "Why wait? It's a pity. I waited till my, you know, tension headache or insomnia or burnout, whatever, to discover the, the, the benefits of meditation." So, of course, we should, um-

   20. CWChris Williamson28:46

       Yeah.

   21. SLSteven Laureys28:46

       ... be more, oops, uh, uh, doing the, the, the preventive part. And, and, um, it's a question I often hear. So, so, okay, what should I do for how long? And then people... It's not competition. Uh, there's no Olympics here. Uh, my personal take is that really, uh, you do what you can, um, and you have the formal sessions, uh, 20 minutes, but, you know, sometimes, um, I have five kids. So Chris, sometimes in the mornings-

   22. CWChris Williamson29:20

       30, 30 seconds can feel like a lifetime. Yeah. (laughs)

   23. SLSteven Laureys29:22

       ... it's complete, complete chaos. And when Mattheus says, "You, you take that time, Steven. You, but I don't, you know, sleep is also important and all the other things. I don't wanna..." So, uh, that's why I think also informal meditation, and studies have shown that it also has an impact. So, um, I think every minute, uh, you can, you can meditate and the way you actually will meditate, what kind of exercise you're doing, um, is, is, is good. Don't, don't put the bar too high. Don't be, as you said, "This is, this was a bad session," or whatever. Um, so, uh,

3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Everyone should do swimming.…

   1. SLSteven Laureys30:01

      yeah, I, I, I'm, uh, uh, seeing this as a personal journey. You, you, you just try these things out, uh, and then depending on the needs of the moment, you will do this or the other thing. A body scan will, for example, help my wife fall asleep. It's not my kind of thing. And then, uh, so we all got these, these different exercises. Then again, maybe this is my personality, but, uh, sometimes I wanna try new things. So, so right now, I'm in this, in this mantra, uh, meditation. In the book, also there's David Lynch talking about, you know, um, what he's doing with transcendental meditation. So, um-... I think we all have different needs and different, you know, um, personalities, types of how we actually, uh, do this. And, and it would be strange if we compare it again with sports, that one would say, you know, "You, you, you should go swimming." And-

   2. CWChris Williamson30:58

      Everyone should do swimming. Yeah, precisely, precisely.

   3. SLSteven Laureys31:01

      So that, when, when I hear that also in the field of meditation, I, I become a little bit, "Whoa, this is, this is strange." Right? So, um, find someone who, who ... And also the way you, you mentioned, um, the, the, the wearables and some people like having these feedbacks and numbers. Fine. It's, there's great apps now and, and some of my patients really are, uh, happy. Others hate it and it makes them nervous. Uh, uh, so, so that I think is the, is the challenge. Just try it out and, and for yourself, um, find out what, what is, uh, good for you.

   4. CWChris Williamson31:38

      There's an analogy that someone told me when I was discussing ... I, I'd hit a bit of a wall with my meditation practice. And I'd been doing Shinzen Young's Five Ways to Know Yourself, um, which is a combination of focus to mindfulness, like classic mindfulness meditation. And, um, I'd been y- I'd been doing it for a long time, like maybe three years I think. It's like 500 sessions or something like that I'd got in under this one particular type. There's various, uh, little iterations within that, but it's essentially the same practice. And he said, "Why would you think that the boat which carried you across the river would get you over land on the other side?" And I was like, "Dude, that's such a good analogy, that you have particular practices that work for particular, uh, uh, bits of time, areas within your life." Any power lifter that's listening, anyone that's ever tried to do weight training knows you don't stick to the same exercises from when you start the gym. You cycle through them. You periodize the different things that you do. But again, because what is happening internally within the texture of our own mind is so murky to ourselves and there aren't these existing sort of bodies of knowledge that are quite as common as we have in other pursuits like sports and athletics and stuff like that, it's very difficult to actually learn these lesson. And for someone to say to me, "Hey, man, like why would you think that the boat that took you across the river would get you on, across land on the other side?" That was like a hammer blow, 'cause I was like, "Right. Brilliant." So I'm now partway through kind of searching for what my new pursuit will be for a little while. I'm looking at maybe doing Dzogchen. Uh, from your conversation with Sam Harris, that really sort of opened up, um, some curiosity around that. I like the idea of this sort of a non-dual perspective. And then, um, what else have I been looking? The Sedona Method, which is actually, uh, a lot more of a, a sort of a cerebral type of, an interpersonal type of meditation. That seems, that seems fascinating. But yeah, it's, um, it's an endlessly interesting world to delve into. And the fact that you can do it at all times within your own mind is, is really, really good. You looked as well, you talk in the book about happiness. Can you explain how meditation relates to phenomenological happiness but on a neurological level? How does that even work?

   5. SLSteven Laureys33:51

      So again, um, it's a challenge to define happiness, right, and the, the pursuit of happiness. And, um, we can't be permanently happy, right? When we had the first, uh, antidepressants, Prozac and you know, the, um, Americans taking this to be super happy, which is, is, is a challenge. Uh, life is not just always, um, uh, a Hollywood scenario. And, and then how do you deal with those challenges? Um, and seeing meditation as just something to make you happy or as just something that can, uh, reduce stress or ju- ... It, it's, it's way more than that, right? Uh, but it definitely permits you to maybe first of all listen to your own emotions. Uh, it's a question that we, we often, uh, ask, a kind of a polite, uh, "How do you do?" "Well, how do you do?" "Oh, no, I'm fine. Yeah." Uh, but how do you really do? How are you? It's, it's not so easy. Um, and, and that already for me is, because you're, I understand also one of those athletes of the mind and doing the, uh, higher, uh, more advanced courses and, and practices. But, um, the people I see in my consultation, uh, you know, uh, sometimes, uh, have their, uh, you know, negative priors. And, and, and it's just inviting them to try this out. This is not something magical. Uh, and yes, I, I do believe it can make you more happy. And coming back to my favorite guinea pig, Matthieu Ricard, he ... Journalists call him the, the most happy person-

   6. CWChris Williamson35:37

      The happiest man alive. Yeah, exactly.

   7. SLSteven Laureys35:39

      ... alive, which he says. It's ridiculous. Uh, it's definitely, uh, not true and, and how could we know that? But, but indeed, uh, he, he is, uh, kind of showing the opposite brain pattern as, as people who are depressed. And, um-

   8. CWChris Williamson35:54

      How is that characterized?

   9. SLSteven Laureys35:57

      So, so while w- w- we, uh, again this, uh, prefrontal area here that plays a role in emotion, um, control and how during the different brain scans, uh, he, he, his brain and, and emotional status reacted, uh, mm, comes to the conclusion that yes, his happiness circuits. But there is no such thing as a happiness region or a happiness, um, chemical, right? It's, it's really, uh, networks in a soup of neurotransmitters, uh, permanently changing again. Um, but yes, uh, it permits you to, as you said in the beginning, um, react to the reality of what's happening to us, uh, in, in, in a, in a different way. Um, and it is interesting to try and understand the, the neuroscience behind it. But I r- definitely wouldn't be too arrogant, uh...I, I, I, I've, uh, the past 25 years with the team trying to understand the human mind. And, uh, sometimes I, I hear from colleagues like, you know, "We've, we've got it all explained." And, and nothing is, is further from the truth. Uh, we don't understand how from something material, my favorite organ here, and the brain is definitely important, but we can't explain how from something, an object like this, something immaterial, thoughts, perceptions, emotions arise. So really I think at one point, and also as, you know I had a Christian, um, education then went to university, very critical thinking, and of course I'm a scientist, I will always confront what I think to understand with what I think to measure. But when we talk about consciousness, I don't know.

   10. CWChris Williamson37:54

       (laughs)

   11. SLSteven Laureys37:54

       Uh, have we ... Can we say we now made some advance with all these sexy brain scans and, and images? Can we say we maybe understood 50% of the problem? Or 5%? Or 0.005%? We just ignore what we ignore. And, and talking about our ignorance and just being a bit, um, yeah, uh, looking at it with more, uh, wonder and, and, and is, is I think good. And, and kind of the personal, um, experience you can even call it spirituality, I, I really think that, that this is one of the biggest mysteries. And, and, um, I'm naively optimistic that, uh, we can increase or maybe I should say reduce our ignorance. Um, give it a try, but, but it's, it's a challenge. And it makes you humble.

   12. CWChris Williamson38:52

       That is your meditation coming to bear in your professional world. That is the equanimity that you've learned to not fixate or suppress the things that come up during your meditation, and you're now scaling that across your research. You know, this is your life's work, this is what you've dedicated yourself to. And you're someone now who's manifesting physically in not just the words that you say but in the way that you approach the, the calling that you have in life. You're saying, "I'm curious about what is going to happen, but I'm neither fixating nor suppressing on the results that come from it. I hope that we find more, but it doesn't matter if we don't. It's just naturally in- interesting." I mean, man, like if that's not a, a beautiful, um, explanation for why you can have a scalable version of meditation, that it's not just the, the state change or the trait change of the texture of your own mind, but actually the way that you can be within the world as well, I think that's ... I think that's awesome. You looked at, you looked at free divers as well. Didn't you look at some world record free diver guy that can dive hundreds of meters on a single breath? What did you learn from them?

   13. SLSteven Laureys39:58

       So Guillaume Néry, yeah. Again, our, uh, area of expertise is the damaged brain and trying to improve our care for coma survivors, uh, but looking at those other guys, those athletes of the mind, not just the, the Buddhist monks, uh, but these, um, yeah, uh, world record holders. Guillaume Néry is, um, uh, French world champion, came to the lab, uh, and permitted us to look at how the brain works when you're holding your breath, uh, in his case for seven, eight minutes, which is really impressive. And he's in an altered state of consciousness. Uh, you can look at his movies in, uh, in YouTube, he's, uh, you know, seeing things down there, is, is really, um, terribly interesting, and it reminded me when I heard him speak about our study on near death experiences actually. Sometimes he's seeing himself, uh, from the outside, he's feeling extremely well, um-

   14. CWChris Williamson41:08

       Despite-

   15. SLSteven Laureys41:09

       And so again-

   16. CWChris Williamson41:09

       ... despite being 100 meters under the water?

   17. SLSteven Laureys41:11

       Exactly.

   18. CWChris Williamson41:12

       (laughs)

   19. SLSteven Laureys41:12

       Uh, 120 meters, uh, down there and, and so yeah, we, we are about to publish, uh, the workings of his mind and brain, um, and those other apnea, uh, champions. So, so it's interesting for us again to learn from these extremes. Uh, we, um, also have the astronauts. And so, uh, there are now seven up there, um, in the International Space Station, and they, uh, are put in the MRI scanner in Moscow because not so long ago it was only Russia sending them. And, and then when they come back, uh, from sometimes long periods of zero gravity, it's, it's a challenge and we're preparing to leave this planet, go to Mars and so ... So again, they're a wonderful opportunity for us and the team to study, um, another type of athlete, the, the astronauts, the cosmonauts. So, so all of that-

   20. CWChris Williamson42:10

       Wow.

   21. SLSteven Laureys42:10

       ... is very, very interesting. Um-

   22. CWChris Williamson42:12

       Have you got any predictions? Have-

   23. SLSteven Laureys42:14

       ... and, uh, one other very special person is, uh, Corinne Sombrun.

   24. CWChris Williamson42:20

       Got you.

   25. SLSteven Laureys42:22

       Who is a shaman. I, I, uh, learned a lot from her, uh, experiences when she was in Mongolia, and, and so now we're comparing, well, what is different between those different exercises of meditation and hypnosis which is something we also use in a medical context with a cognitive trance, a shamanic trance. So fascinating and how it compares as you just mentioned, these athletes as Guillaume Néry who are able to do extraordinary things.

   26. CWChris Williamson42:58

       Before ... I want to do, um, try and give people-... an opportunity to delve into the texture of their own mind if we've got, if we've got time and you'd be willing to, to give them something interesting, maybe open monitoring or something like that. But before that, I had a guy on the show a few months ago, a guy called Paul Evans, and he is the, uh, director of a big events company out in Dubai. And a few years ago, probably about 10 years ago, he was put into a medically induced coma for about three months. He'd had a, a kidney, a particular type of kidney failure, rapid onset kidney failure due to over-drinking. He was partying a lot. And he was put into a coma for three months. And he wrote a book called When I Wake Up. And in this book, he explains how he lived during this coma in Singapore for years. He ran a team of salespeople. He could tell you the color of the tie that he wore when he went to work, the number plate of the car that he got into, the brand of toothpaste that he used, the different people who worked for him. He got up, he went to work, he went home, he had a coffee, he had food, and he existed through this four-year period. During this time, in his, uh, altered world, altered universe, his dad passed away. So his dad dies while he's in this, and his family are there around the bed and apparently, at some point through this, they were sat around the bed and could see tears streaming down his face, but they didn't know why. And they think, or at least Paul's hypothesis is that this was the period where during his altered state of consciousness, he was burying his father. How, uh, r- r- replicable, realistic even is this? Because this story sounds so insane, and I was sat there just sort of with my jaw open, listening to him talk. Is this the sort of thing that you've encountered in your work?

   27. SLSteven Laureys44:57

       Yes. Of course. So the past 25

4. 45:00 – 58:19

   What's the email, I…

   1. SLSteven Laureys45:00

      years and those hundreds of people we see surviving a severe, um, brain damage and then often confounded by a pharmacological coma, where it's very hard for us to know, well, when did this actually happen, uh, you know? They're, they go through intensive care and then, um, the whole time they stay in, in the hospital and then, and then rehab. So I somehow, um, over time, you know, um, I just tried to listen very carefully to what these people tell us. Because, uh, consciousness is a subjective first-person experience. He is the only one knowing what was happening right then. And I think historically, we made the error to consider consciousness as binary, all or nothing, and, and that's wrong. You can be more or less awake, more or less aware of what's going on around you, of yourself, and another historical error, I think, and we've contributed to, to, to showing scientifically, uh, how we've been underestimating, um, the workings of the mind in case of severe brain damage. It's not because someone, of course, can no longer express, uh, her or his thoughts or feelings, and p- people in coma cannot talk, we have no non-verbal communication, and so we tend to, you know, um, l... Of course, our measure of consciousness is, is making inferences based on the motor response, and it's not because people are not responding that, in each and every case, nothing is going on in their brain and mind. And, uh, so that became very clear with all the, the brain scans, uh, so we, we should be more careful. And near-death experiences are another example. So anyone listening right now, if you had one of these experiences, please share them with us, uh, uh, you will help. We are about 40 people, uh, trying to understand consciousness-

   2. CWChris Williamson47:06

      What's the email, I know you've got an email address. What's the email address?

   3. SLSteven Laureys47:09

      So for near-death experiences, it's nde@uliege.be. Um, and anything related to coma, it's coma@uliege.be. I think it's, it's really important for us to just shut up and listen, because I never had one of these experiences, and, uh, sometimes I feel like, you know, the guy who thinks he knows everything about color vision. And imagine, I would even understand everything about what's happening in the brain, the parts of the, you know, um, brain regions and neurotransmitters, but I myself would be color-blind, right? Um, so that theore- theoretical knowledge is different from the feeling itself. Imagine one day I would see colors, something, you know, would change, and maybe historically again, and this is going back to Descartes, um, "Je pense, donc je suis." I think, therefore I am. And we've been also in the educational system we were discussing, it's all about, you know, thinking and knowing, and what about, "I perceive, therefore I am?" And, and I think that's maybe the challenge. We're, uh, comparing our brains tos computers, um, it's not a computer, and we should invest more in what makes us human, irrational, intuitive, um, so a challenge there.

   4. CWChris Williamson48:32

      Can we do a practice which can give people a, a novel insight into the texture of their own mind? Maybe something that's not just the breathing. Have we got something else, like an open monitoring or something like that? Anything else you can suggest?

   5. SLSteven Laureys48:44

      So, uh, whatever classical exercise indeed would be just to focus your attention to the breathing, we know that. It's, it's a very interesting exercise, I believe. Um, but you can also kind of-... put your spotlight of attention to your, um, outside world. So I don't know what you're seeing right now, I'm in front of a window. I'm very lucky. Uh, so whatever you see, um, if you have a window, well, why don't you just look out of the window and, and maybe discover that visual scene, um, in a new way, and you can appreciate the colors. Uh, I right now see, uh, trees and leaves, and, and I can, uh, really focus my attention on all those little nuances of the, the, the different types of green. And so, um, enjoy what is coming through my senses and be very aware of the here and now of, uh, whatever the visual input, uh, is there now, and you can then play with other modalities. And, um, why not now pay attention to what we hear? Um, maybe you will suddenly become aware of the, the noise of your heating system or some noises from outside, people talking, animal, dog barking, whatever. And again, you can play with your attention, now maybe bringing it to what you feel. Maybe you sit down and, and what's coming in again through these senses and appreciate kind of your own weight, um, different parts of your body or even your clothing. So suddenly, you can focus and appreciate the awareness of, you know, the little pressure of your clothes, and again, do this for the time, um, you can decide on the different modalities, uh, and appreciate how you can decide to bring attention to different, uh, parts of your existence. And that's a very simple exercise, uh, where, uh, you, uh, you can enjoy, um, the power of the mind and, and, uh, experience things a little bit differently.

   6. CWChris Williamson51:35

      The fascinating thing that I s- I find about open monitoring and, um, walking meditations as well, especially when you really start to tune in, is all of the things which are sensory inputs which you do not indulge in noticing throughout the day. So specifically touch, I think, is a really good one. Touch is almost there for most of us really as just an alert system. It's, uh, "That's too hot, that's too sharp, that's too whatever." So right now, I know both me and you are standing up because we are 21st century desk workers who are concerned about our posture, but for everybody that's sitting and listening to this, the sensation of the seat on your body and the clothes on you, you're wearing clothes all day every single day, and yet, do you ever notice the sensation of clothes on your body despite the fact that it's covering almost all of your body? Well, almost never, but you can do that. You can, like tuning a radio, an old FM, AM radio, you can allow your consciousness to tune itself in to that frequency to get the level of fidelity with which you are focusing on the sensations that are coming in. You can tune it to that point where you can feel the seat beneath you, beneath your legs, or the, the floor beneath your feet. And then when you can hear the different sounds, maybe you notice there is something coming in from outside of the headphones that's beyond just my voice, or maybe you hear that actually I haven't cleaned up the audio of this, this track particularly well, and there's a tiny little bit of buzz in the background, and I wonder what that is. And that, just understanding that simply in the most mundane of experiences, there is essentially a bottomless pit that you can dig into. I think that, uh, that's why meditation is interesting to me.

   7. SLSteven Laureys53:25

      Yeah. (laughs)

   8. CWChris Williamson53:25

      And the deeper that you can get access to that experience, I think the richer and richer your life is.

   9. SLSteven Laureys53:32

      Absolutely. And so, uh, that's actually, uh, what we've been studying for the past, uh, decade. So you have these awareness networks we, we just mentioned, external awareness, internal awareness, these are two networks, emotional networks. So these are the exercises. You can just focus your attention, uh, observe, uh, and that, that's really very, very powerful. And, and you can do it in a very formal way, but you can also just when you go running, um, for, you know... Doesn't need to be your whole run, but just decide, "Okay, now I'm paying attention to my feet hitting the ground," and I, I can really appreciate, and you can really break it down. Or, "Now I'm focusing my attention to what I'm seeing during the run." And so, and then sometimes, you just let it go and, and have your mind thinking about anything. So it's, that's the exercise. Uh, just, uh, playing with these things, uh, you can do the guided meditation if you like it with the apps, and then you can do it yourself without any help, uh, doing it alone, doing it, you know, with your partner, or with a bunch of people. So that's quite, uh, individual again, and, and the challenge is to find what fits you best at this specific moment in time.

   10. CWChris Williamson54:56

       Very much so. Uh, uh, for people who might be thinking, "I wonder where to get started?" I would highly recommend. Headspace is fantastic. Calm is fantastic. Sam Harris's Waking Up app is also really, really good. If you Google "Five Ways to Know Yourself by Shinzen Young," it is free and it is the most comprehensive explanation of how the different areas of mindfulness meditation come together in- from sort of a practical perspective. Also, the No-Nonsense Meditation book, A Scientist's Guide to the Power of Meditation by Mr. Steven Laureys MD will be linked in the show notes below, on Amazon of course. Um, where else should people go if they want to keep up with the fascinating research that you do? Where else can people head?

   11. SLSteven Laureys55:39

       So there's, uh, uh, a lot of opportunities, uh, as you just mentioned. Uh, something I prescribe then in my, um, outpatient clinic is mindfulness-based stress reduction. So you have these eight-week programs and I know you're in good hands. You have someone who's been trained, and the science has actually shown that, uh, the different exercises you see there, uh, can be beneficial and will lead to these, uh, changes in- in brain structure. People can go on a retreat. So- so it's- it's really this- this journey. There's, in the book, a number of websites, uh, for those who, uh, who like it. You mentioned already the wearables, the apps on the internet. There's, uh, really so many ways... your podcast, uh, to find your own, uh, your own way. So, uh, I think the only thing you need, uh, to start meditating is your own curiosity and motivation. And, uh, if that is there, you know, you can start your journey, and I wish you a very pleasant one.

   12. CWChris Williamson56:52

       I love it. I'm gonna finish it with the quote that you actually begin the book with which you say, "You don't have to control your thoughts. You just have to stop them... stop letting them control you."

   13. SLSteven Laureys57:03

       Exactly. But we can talk about it and read about it. The challenge is now really to, uh, experience it because, you know, it's happening between your ears. Nobody can meditate for you so that's- that's the invitation. Uh, for me it was a discovery. I- I really enjoyed how from a skeptic actually, uh, I heard only negative things about meditation during (laughs) my training in medical school and later in neurology, and now, you know, we're having this- this discussion and- and the research going on, um, really showing, uh, and there's hundreds of scientific papers every year that there is added value. So hopefully, um, more people will be able to, uh, try it out.

   14. CWChris Williamson57:53

       If we haven't convinced them today, then I'm gonna give up. Steven, thank you very much for coming on. I really appreciate it.

   15. SLSteven Laureys57:59

       Thank you so much.

   16. CWChris Williamson58:00

       Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few months, and don't forget to subscribe. It makes me very happy indeed. Peace.

Episode duration: 58:19