The New Science Of Self Actualisation | Scott Barry Kaufman | Modern Wisdom Podcast 156

1. 0:00 – 4:13

   Self-actualization under stress: insecurity, uncertainty, and the COVID backdrop

   1. SKScott Barry Kaufman0:00

      If you find yourself becoming egoistic, arrogant, conceited, or puffed up, think of mortality. Or think of other arrogant and conceited people and see how they look. Do you want to look like that? Do you want to take yourself that seriously? To be that un-humorous? I really like that.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:22

      Scott, welcome to the show.

   3. SKScott Barry Kaufman0:24

      Oh, thanks, Chris. So great to chat with you today.

   4. CWChris Williamson0:26

      Really excited to speak to you today. So we're talking about transcend. We're gonna be speaking about self-actualization. Kind of, uh, at the moment, I suppose, the way that people view their own lives and what they can do with them is probably a, a pretty timely topic at the moment, right?

   5. SKScott Barry Kaufman0:43

      I would say so. I think people are struggling in a lot of ways, that they are perhaps losing sight of the self-actualization that, that's possible within them. It can be very easy to lose sight of the greater possibilities for yourself and for your fellow humans when you're pitched in a state of insecurity.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:06

      Mm. So I know that you're a, a big fan of Maslow, and you w- base a lot of what you do on top of some of his work. I guess-

   7. SKScott Barry Kaufman1:15

      He's okay.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:16

      He's all right.

   9. SKScott Barry Kaufman1:16

      (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson1:16

       He's pretty, he's pretty cool. Um, I'm gonna guess that at a time like this, where people are very concerned about some real basics, the bottom of the pyramid, who are worried about their health, their family's health, you know, there's food and water shortages. You see these images of Costco and everyone's ripping shit off the shelves and stuff like that.

   11. SKScott Barry Kaufman1:34

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson1:34

       Like, does that sh-

   13. SKScott Barry Kaufman1:35

       I know, and toilet paper, they're ripping the toilet paper, you know?

   14. CWChris Williamson1:38

       Oh, the toilet paper's the maddest thing, because it doesn't, it doesn't affect your digestion, but y- that's, like, we could go on forever about that. Um, how does that relate, do you think, to the way that people are seeing their lives at the moment? The fact that their more, uh, immediate primal needs, uh, are kind of brought to the forefront?

   15. SKScott Barry Kaufman1:54

       So, what is the question exactly? How do I, wha- like, w- how do I perceive the situation?

   16. CWChris Williamson1:58

       So at the moment, we're talk- we're gonna be talking about self-actualization and transcending.

   17. SKScott Barry Kaufman2:02

       Sure.

   18. CWChris Williamson2:03

       Is there a, an upper bound that's being placed on that by the immediacy of people's concerns at the moment?

   19. SKScott Barry Kaufman2:09

       Um ... I see what you're saying. Well, there c- there certainly is. And, and that's the, the great tragedy of, of, of falling prey to insecurity and uncertainty. F- what I mean by falling prey is, there, there, there's always gonna be uncertainty in our lives. We're in this ... It, it's funny, people are, are just, are acting as though this situation is, like, the first time in their life that there's great uncertainty. I mean, there's, there's, there's equally probabilities, actually greater probabilities of things when you cross the street every day in your li- you don't, you don't think about all these things, you know? (laughs) But here, there, there's a, there's a thing we can see on the media, there's a thing we can see on TV where, you know, people are talking about it every day as, "This is the thing." But it turns out, and I hate to break it, uh, break the news, you hear, "Breaking news." (laughs) Scott Barry Kaufman, breaking news. You know how CNN's like, "Breaking news."

   20. CWChris Williamson3:02

       That's why we're here.

   21. SKScott Barry Kaufman3:02

       So Scott, yeah. Breaking news, uh, you have lots and lots of things, shit that can go wrong.

   22. CWChris Williamson3:11

       (clears throat)

   23. SKScott Barry Kaufman3:11

       In your, your, your day. (laughs)

   24. CWChris Williamson3:14

       Tell it like it is, Scott.

   25. SKScott Barry Kaufman3:16

       In my terms of, like ... In my terms and my priorities of things that can go wrong, the COVID-19 is, is, is, is, is pre- prevalent, but, uh, I wouldn't say that's my number one thing I'm concerned about in my day. I'm just trying to, uh, be mentally good (laughs) through the day. So, look, there are lots of things. And, and I think the, the, managing uncertainty is a lifelong skill, and if there's any silver lining to the moment we're in right now is that maybe we can, maybe now's the, now's the time to practice, you know, hopefully ev- all, all the listeners and, and people around the world will, um, will make it through this healthy, uh, and safe. I, I certainly have that wish for everyone. But if there's any silver lining once we a- get through to the other side, it's that maybe this is a, a great opportunity to learn some of those important uncertainty management skills that we probably should've been learning throughout the rest of our lives, not, not just in this moment.

2. 4:13 – 6:40

   Why uncertainty hurts: the Heathrow queue lesson and neuroticism

   1. CWChris Williamson4:13

      I couldn't agree more. There's this great e- example about uncertainty that Rory Sutherland, my friend from Ogilvy Advertising told me. We was talking about London Heathrow, and he was saying that the wait times at London Heathrow to get through the security scan section were just causing abhorrent amounts of complaints. It was taking too long.

   2. SKScott Barry Kaufman4:32

      Yeah. (coughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson4:32

      People were getting irritated. Um, so originally they went to London Heathrow and they said, um, "What have you tried? What have you been looking at doing?" And because of the sort of people that run an airport, logistics, operations, optimization stuff, so they'd looked at, can we rotate the staff in a different way to make sure that they can move quicker? Where can we, can we condense the lanes down so we can fit more lanes of people in? Can we do ... They looked at it as a, a logistical optimization problem. And they brought, I can't remember if it was Rory or one of his friends in, and they said, "Right, before you do that, before you spend several million pounds on new staff and new equipment, let's just try one thing." And along the queue where you waited to get into the security, uh, scanning area, they just placed little posters that said, "45 minute wait from here, 30 minute wait from here, 15 minute wait from here."

   4. SKScott Barry Kaufman5:27

      Wow.

   5. CWChris Williamson5:28

      All the way around.

   6. SKScott Barry Kaufman5:28

      It's like Disneyland.

   7. CWChris Williamson5:29

      Yeah. And the number of complaints dropped by like a factor of 10. They just completely annihilated it because people don't mind waiting.

   8. SKScott Barry Kaufman5:37

      That's it.

   9. CWChris Williamson5:37

      They don't mind being in discomfort. They just want to know when it's going to end, and that is, that's the uncertainty, right? We don't know when this is going to end.

   10. SKScott Barry Kaufman5:46

       That's exa- that's exactly right, and it's particularly stressful for those who score high on a personality trait called neuroticism. So people who score high in neuroticism would prefer the devil they know to the devil they don't know. So I imagine there are some that maybe they wouldn't admit it in polite company, but they're almost like, "Give me the fucking virus already," you know? (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson6:07

       (laughs)

   12. SKScott Barry Kaufman6:07

       Like, let me get over with i- uh, over with it, because it's actually more painful ...... to my mental health to, to not know when it's coming, because they say it's coming. (laughs) They say, "There's an 80% chance that, you know, that you're, you're gonna get it, probably." You know, um, not that you're gonna die from it, may- maybe, let me be clear, but that you'll even ... You know, it'll, you'll, you mightn't even be symptomatic, but you'll get it. You know, um, that some people are probably, like, secretly being like, "Just give it to me already." By the way, am I allowed to curse on your podcast? I know I just did. Um-

   13. CWChris Williamson6:36

       You can curse away all you want, Scott.

   14. SKScott Barry Kaufman6:39

       Thank you. Thank you.

3. 6:40 – 9:29

   Redefining self-actualization: Maslow misread, greatness, and transcendence

   1. CWChris Williamson6:40

      Um, so let's, let's, let's get into it. What is, how do you define self-actualization? What is it? I've heard, heard people speaking about it, but I don't know what it is.

   2. SKScott Barry Kaufman6:48

      Um, say, say it one more time?

   3. CWChris Williamson6:49

      What is self-actualization? How do you define it?

   4. SKScott Barry Kaufman6:51

      Oh, (laughs) we're going to question.

   5. CWChris Williamson6:52

      That's the question.

   6. SKScott Barry Kaufman6:55

      Well, people have, uh, misrepresented Maslow's ideas of self-actualization. And, uh, y- for instance, David Brooks, who was a New York Times columnist, really was hating on Maslow a couple years ago and wrote something about how Maslow's ideas of s- of self-actualization are the cause of the self-esteem movement we had in America, where people could be like, "Oh, I can be anything I want 'cause, you know, I'm good, good enough, and doggone it, people like me." You know, that's the, that was the skit from Saturday Night Live. (laughs) I don't know if you're familiar with that skit. But it, it turns out, it's, it's not true. Uh, I mean, that's not fair, and when I read that, I was like, "Oh, hell no." (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson7:36

      Mm-hmm.

   8. SKScott Barry Kaufman7:36

      You know, like, and I actually got Brooks on my podcast and I said, "Oh, hell no" to him, you know? (laughs) And anyway, it was a little awkward, but whatever. Um, I, I still have great respect for him, but- (laughs) you know, I was just being SBK being SBK. Uh, but, um, you know, this is the thing, is like, he, uh, the ... And Maslow really made it clear that to fully self-actualize, we have to eventually transcend ourselves, that self-actualization's really only a bridge to transcendence. You can't reach your full potential if you, you're not helping to reach the full potential of others. Like, you're, you're, you're not reaching your full potential. (laughs) You know, people talk about reaching their full potential as though, like, they develop th- that, that it stops when you develop your talents to its full capacity. And there's a lot of people in the self-help space, people, you know, you're, you're probably w- very familiar with this, you know, um, that they have that conceptualization, like, their high level, highest level goal is, like, greatness, and that's it. And then, then you're done. As though greatness defined by them might only mean out-achieving everyone. But that's not full greatness. Y- you know, that's not the fullest potential. Maslow really tried to show people a vision of what humans g- really could be, what our, what our highest ceilings of human nature really could be, kind of pointing the way forward for that. And that's what I try to do in this book as well, in that same spirit. And show that full self-actualization is not just an individualistic pursuit. It's becoming all you're capable of becoming, that is true, we can, we can define self-actualization as, quite simply as becoming all that you're capable of becoming. But that all you're capable of becoming part actually requires uplifting other people. If that makes sense.

   9. CWChris Williamson9:21

      So that's what's greater than greatness? Greater than greatness is you making other people great as well?

   10. SKScott Barry Kaufman9:26

       Transcendence. (laughs) Greater than greatness is transcendence, yeah.

4. 9:29 – 11:36

   Can you help others before you’ve helped yourself? Fit-for-service vs self-sacrifice

   1. CWChris Williamson9:29

      I like it. So past Modern Wisdom guest, Aubrey Marcus, has this really beautiful quote where he talks about how in order to serve, you have to be fit for service. And he says, "You don't serve other people from your cup. You serve them from the saucer that overflows around your cup." Um, what I'm wondering here is-

   2. SKScott Barry Kaufman9:52

      Bravo.

   3. CWChris Williamson9:52

      ... we've talked about the peak of greatness, the transcendence above self-actualization being raising others up as well. Can you raise others before you've raised yourself? Or do you have to conquer your own mountain before you move onto them?

   4. SKScott Barry Kaufman10:08

      Great question. I d- I think that you do have to conquer your own mountain. Uh, you really have to do a lot of the, the inner work first. I, what I try to do in this, this book is show that in order to transcend yourself, you need a self that's transcended. You don't need to sacrifice yourself. There are some people who are trying to transcend and, and, and have a sense of self-sacrifice, where they almost feel guilty to first be great, you know? And, and I don't, I don't think that's, that's, that's the best way to help the world, is to, is to squander your own talents in any way. I don't, I don't see these things as mutually exclusive. I think the best thing is, for transcendence, the best thing for, for transcendence to be most effective is when there's a seamlessness between yourself and the world, because your self that you've developed, or your talents and, and capacities and strengths have been developed to such a degree that your being, just by being in the world, helps uplift others. So there's a seamlessness between self and world. That's the greatest thing, is when there's a harmonious integration between self and world. Not when you've made a self-sacrifice to such a degree where you're, uh, where you feel as though you, you don't matter, and the only thing that matters are, is other people. That I don't, I wouldn't say that's the healthiest thing.

5. 11:36 – 14:06

   Pseudo-transcendence and faulty foundations: when ‘growth’ hides unmet needs

   1. CWChris Williamson11:36

      I think some people as well, uh, they fall prey to being ... They sacrifice their own progress, or they perhaps recount, um, trying to have objective measures of success, and they do that in order to avoid having to play the game of success and prove themselves. I was wondering, I asked Aubrey this same question, of how many people that follow an ascetic tradition now, you know, modern day, "I'm not bothered about money, man. I'm not bothered about possessions, man." Do it simply because they don't want to have to, um, get down to brass tacks of doing some hard work. And it's very easy to signal that you're being very, uh, charitable and altruistic in helping other people...... but all the while having never conquered your own mountain, you know?

   2. SKScott Barry Kaufman12:25

      (laughs) Yeah. It, it, it's, it, it's true. It, I, I, I phrase it as pseudo transcendence or pseudo-growth.

   3. CWChris Williamson12:33

      (laughs)

   4. SKScott Barry Kaufman12:34

      There are a lot of people that are trying to ... (laughs) You like, you like that? There are a lot of people that are trying to grow on a faulty foundation, and we all know what happens when you try to build anything on a faulty foundation. (smacks lips) You get the Trump Tower. No, I'm joking, I'm joking, I'm joking. Don't, (laughs) don't, don't put that-

   5. CWChris Williamson12:52

      No one cares, no one cares over here. I mean, 50% of the audience is in America, but no one cares over here. You got no enemies in the UK.

   6. SKScott Barry Kaufman12:59

      Oh, okay. I was gonna say, "Edit that out, edit that out." (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson13:01

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   8. SKScott Barry Kaufman13:01

      But, but, um, you know, when you, when you build anything on a, on a faulty foundation, uh, where there's, where it's being ... And what I mean by that is that the higher levels are being fueled by deficiencies that haven't been taken care of. Maybe it's a incessant quest for glory, or an incessant quest for, uh, to be liked or t- for connection or, or safety. When transcendence is being fueled by those deficiencies, it, it's not a well-integrated unit. You know what I'm saying? Really, the most effective forms of, of growth and transcendence, uh, we call real growth, is one that is not, uh, motivated anymore f- by the deficiencies of our basic needs, but is motivated by exploration and love for, uh, uh, for the ... Love i- in the sense of, like, humanitarian love, uh, for all of humankind, to help uplift the species, not just yourself. And, and, and they have very different flavors to them, these two forms of growth.

6. 14:06 – 18:13

   Where to begin: honest self-assessment, individual entry points, and practical diagnostics

   1. CWChris Williamson14:06

      So how do we get started? I think, right, "Scott, this sounds great. I'm gonna get me some of that self-actualization. I'm gonna help raise everybody up." W- where do I start?

   2. SKScott Barry Kaufman14:18

      (smacks lips) It's, it's interesting. I, I think that you need to do a real honest assessment of where you're at. Because, you know, you're asking me, "Where do you start?" But there's such individual differences in where people are starting at, r- r- you know, who are listening to this podcast. You could have some people starting at the point where their s- basic safety needs are the most pressing at the moment. Um, and, and that's very fair, considering the state of the world right now, this, uh, you know, what it's today. I'm looking at my calendar. March 18th, 2020. I couldn't even remember the year. (laughs) I'm like, "Where, where?"

   3. CWChris Williamson14:58

      (laughs)

   4. SKScott Barry Kaufman14:59

      I, I, I've been, I've been holed, I've been holed up in this, i- in this place for so long, you know, with, you know, scared to, you know, uh, to, to, to, to leave that I don't even know what, what the day is or year, but ...

   5. CWChris Williamson15:09

      Time warp.

   6. SKScott Barry Kaufman15:09

      Um, yeah, yeah. But people start ... You have to really have an honest, real honest assessment of where you are. And I, I do ... Uh, my website, I try to, I have free personality, self-actualization personality tests to help you figure, t- kind of assess, um, what you're ... Uh, I have a self-actualization test of 10 different dimensions, so you can see which of the dimensions are you most efficient in at the moment, and what you wanna work on. 'Cause, uh, th- this path of self-actualization is so unique to each individual. So, I, I stay away from, uh, from advice of, like, "You need to start here." Because I, I wanna know where, where really do you need to start from? So that would ... I'd say assess which of your needs? Is it, is it the safety one? Is it your connection that's holding you back from self-actualizing it? Um, maybe you're feeling lonely these days. You should listen to that, you know? I, I think a lot of people pseudo-grow, or, uh, become pseudo-great. Pseudo-great sounds even funnier, doesn't it? (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson16:05

      I like it when... Yeah, pseudo-everything. I want some pseudo-cake and, uh, pseudo-toothpaste.

   8. SKScott Barry Kaufman16:12

      It sounds funny actually, pseudo ... To be ... You're only pseudo-great. (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson16:16

      Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's like a, it's like a, uh, put-down, yeah? Like a rap ...

   10. SKScott Barry Kaufman16:19

       Yeah, it's like a put-

   11. CWChris Williamson16:19

       ... a rap battle put-down.

   12. SKScott Barry Kaufman16:20

       (laughs) It's like a rap bat- ... Yeah, exactly. (laughs) Um, th- uh, the first time I've ever used that phrase. But I, but I'm saying, like, y- you might think you've achieved greatness, uh, and people might tell you, you, you're great, but maybe you're suffering with, with profound loneliness. And, and that's important. That's an important signal. I would say you need to start there. (laughs) Don't start with how great you, you think you are.

   13. CWChris Williamson16:48

       Mm.

   14. SKScott Barry Kaufman16:49

       Start with, start with the loneliness part. Um, or maybe, maybe you actually struggle with the, with esteem issues, self-esteem issues, and maybe that's, that's where you need to start. Maybe you're, you're, you're getting your validation from others too much, and you're not ... You feel, you feel like, "Who am I anymore? Other, uh, apart from my likes on Twitter," you know? Maybe, maybe that's confusing you, and so you should start there. So I, I think that there are lots of places, (laughs) a lot of entryways is what I'm saying.

   15. CWChris Williamson17:18

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   16. SKScott Barry Kaufman17:18

       Depending, depending on where you're at right now.

   17. CWChris Williamson17:20

       I wonder how many people that are listening are feeling, uh, a little bit of a pang there as we go through some of the common, the common issues that you've got. The safety, perhaps, talking about financial worries, you know, money worries, future worries, basic stuff, or connection. I did a, an episode with Lydia Denworth, who's just written a book called Friendship, talking about this loneliness epidemic which is apparently sweeping America. You know, this lack of connection that we've got, and how, uh, online friendships don't supplement for real world ones. Or then on top of that, layer on, on again about this, uh, potential lack of self-esteem. We're using likes and, uh, likability online as a proxy for the way that we feel, you know, for our, uh, our actual self-esteem. So yeah, I think, um, there's probably a few people now that are, are feeling that pang inside. So I want to, um-

   18. SKScott Barry Kaufman18:10

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson18:11

       I want-

   20. SKScott Barry Kaufman18:11

       A lot of people, more than a few.

7. 18:13 – 24:14

   Peak experiences vs plateau experiences: wonder that lasts beyond a single high

   1. CWChris Williamson18:13

      Yeah, for sure. Um, I wanna talk about peak experiences. Can you tell us about what you looked at to do with that in the book?

   2. SKScott Barry Kaufman18:22

      That's a ph- that's a phrase Maslow used to talk about what are the most wondrous moments of our lives that make life worth living. No big deal. (laughs) NBD.

   3. CWChris Williamson18:36

      Sounds- sounds like I want more of them.

   4. SKScott Barry Kaufman18:38

      Yeah. Yeah. And- and- and he really set all- uh, set out to discover what are all the different ways people can satisfy, h- uh, can have peak experiences, and they can take a lot of different forms, um, i- interestingly enough. He found that a lot of women reported childbirth as being their greatest peak experience. And, um, how do you have one eyebrow go up and the other one stay put?

   5. CWChris Williamson19:03

      That was from when I was in school, and I really, really wanted to be Dwayne The Rock Johnson, and-

   6. SKScott Barry Kaufman19:09

      Oh.

   7. CWChris Williamson19:09

      ... I practiced and practiced and practiced, but I can only do it on one side.

   8. SKScott Barry Kaufman19:13

      That's amazing.

   9. CWChris Williamson19:14

      Thank you.

   10. SKScott Barry Kaufman19:14

       Now, d- does testosterone predict whether you can do that? Because I can't do that. (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson19:19

       I don't think... It's got nothing to do with testosterone.

   12. SKScott Barry Kaufman19:20

       Oh. Oh.

   13. CWChris Williamson19:21

       I think it's got everything to do with me being a- a closet WWE nerd throughout most-

   14. SKScott Barry Kaufman19:27

       (laughs)

   15. CWChris Williamson19:27

       ... of, throughout most of my secondary school. And, um, that being, like, the one... Didn't learn to do the DDT or the German suplex, but I could raise, I could do the people's eyebrow, and now- now, it just comes out when I'm slightly intrigued. I'm like, "Oh, interesting."

   16. SKScott Barry Kaufman19:41

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson19:41

       So I'm intrigued. So go on.

   18. SKScott Barry Kaufman19:43

       That was impressive. Well, do you remember what I actually said that ca- caused that- that eyebrow to go up?

   19. CWChris Williamson19:48

       No.

   20. SKScott Barry Kaufman19:49

       (laughs) We've lost it, lost the thread.

   21. CWChris Williamson19:51

       We've lost the thread.

   22. SKScott Barry Kaufman19:52

       This is welcome-

   23. CWChris Williamson19:53

       I mean, in my defense, I'm dealing with coronavirus.

   24. SKScott Barry Kaufman19:56

       Oh.

   25. CWChris Williamson19:57

       Yeah, I know. I know. Um, so we were talking about-

   26. SKScott Barry Kaufman19:59

       Yeah, but- but, like can I... I'm gonna knock on wood because that might not be true, right? Y- you haven't... It might just be a cold.

   27. CWChris Williamson20:04

       (laughs) I've just got some virus at the moment, yeah. I mean, if I've got a virus and I'm s- I'm self-isolating and it's not COVID-19, I'm gonna be so pissed off, because I'm just at home for-

   28. SKScott Barry Kaufman20:14

       What a waste.

   29. CWChris Williamson20:15

       I know.

   30. SKScott Barry Kaufman20:15

       What a waste that must be.
8. 24:14 – 29:31

   Finding your triggers: beauty, conversation, workouts—and what they have in common

   1. SKScott Barry Kaufman24:14

      Well, some of the most... Well, what are some... What are some of your... What are... Let me ask you, what are some of the triggers that you can think of that you've noticed in your past have- have been a trigger for- for a peak experience?What, what are some of the themes?

   2. CWChris Williamson24:29

      So visual beauty, certainly. I like to travel. I like to go-

   3. SKScott Barry Kaufman24:34

      Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson24:34

      I like to go places. Um, recently went to Bali in Indonesia, and there's a tiny little island called Gili T, uh, which has just the most phenomenal sunsets you've ever seen, out in the middle of the ocean. Uh, that was-

   5. SKScott Barry Kaufman24:47

      Yep.

   6. CWChris Williamson24:47

      ... that was just outs- outrageous. Um, certainly some of the conversations that I have, you know, when I get to podcast, or when I'm in full flow, when I don't look at the clock, when I don't think about anything else, um, you know, I'm just, I'm fully engrossed in what I'm talking about, this flow between me and the guest. Uh, during a workout-

   7. SKScott Barry Kaufman25:05

      That's a big one for me.

   8. CWChris Williamson25:06

      Yeah.

   9. SKScott Barry Kaufman25:06

      That's a big one.

   10. CWChris Williamson25:07

       Yeah. I, I, I really do, I pity people who don't have that outlet in their life, you know, that don't have the outlet for a genuine, um, deep, rigorous conversation. Because there's so, it's the freest thing you're ever gonna get. You just need you and a, and a buddy. Um, and yeah, it really can be-

   11. SKScott Barry Kaufman25:28

       I agree.

   12. CWChris Williamson25:29

       ... unbelievably, unbelievably fulfilling.

   13. SKScott Barry Kaufman25:31

       I agree.

   14. CWChris Williamson25:31

       Um, workouts, a hard workout. Um, in a class with my, with my friends again as well maybe, or, or, you know, doing a WOD somewhere. Um, reading sometimes as well, like reading a book. At the moment, The Moral Animal by Robert Wright. I just can't put the thing down. Uh-

   15. SKScott Barry Kaufman25:48

       (laughs) I talked to him yesterday (laughs) -

   16. CWChris Williamson25:49

       No way.

   17. SKScott Barry Kaufman25:49

       ... for this podcast. Yeah, yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson25:51

       He's a G. Um, I'd, I, I've, I got told to read it for ages. Reading, reading a book. "Oh my God, that's so cool. Oh my God, that's so..." And you just keep on going, keep on going, chewing it up, chewing it up. Seveneves by Neal Stephenson as well, that was a sci-fi book that I read. And that just, I was staying up until 2:00 in the morning to read a book. Like, I haven't done that since I was, well, I d- I don't know if I've ever done that before. You know? Like, stuff like that. So there's, there's some of mine.

   19. SKScott Barry Kaufman26:17

       Beautiful. So trying to, I'm trying to think of the common theme among all those, all those things that you just mentioned. Uh, th-

   20. CWChris Williamson26:25

       So the, the first one that comes to mind for me is presence.

   21. SKScott Barry Kaufman26:28

       Oh, for sure, for sure. Yeah, yeah. That's, that's undeniable aspect, and that's a common characteristic of, of anyone in, in the, in the throes of the peak experience, so to speak. I mean, the modern, there's a modern-day term that is used a lot, which is flow, uh, that Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi has talked about. But the flow concept has been tied so much to performance, and that wasn't really the spirit of Maslow's notion of peak experiences. If anything, the peak experience is when you're not trying to perform at all, right? You're really being. Uh, he called it, he called it moments of pure being (laughs) is what he referred to, and it sounds a little woo-woo (laughs) , but what does that mean? Like, can we unpack the, the notion of pure being? You know, and, and it, you're kind of bringing your whole self to the table, and all of your powers to the table, and you're not being self-critical of it. You're, you're, you have a lot, you have as many degrees of freedom as possible in the moment, because you're not being inhibited by your fears and by your, uh, anxieties and, as my grandmom would say, "You're meshuggenah."

   22. CWChris Williamson27:40

       Mm-hmm.

   23. SKScott Barry Kaufman27:41

       (laughs)

   24. CWChris Williamson27:41

       You're just to-

   25. SKScott Barry Kaufman27:41

       (laughs)

   26. CWChris Williamson27:41

       ... totally unencumbered, right? And I, I get it as well, the, um, the flow dynamic, that always did sit s- slightly askew for me. I'm not trying to do something which is both challenging and worthwhile at the limits-

   27. SKScott Barry Kaufman27:55

       Right.

   28. CWChris Williamson27:55

       ... of my performance when I watch a sunset. I'm not trying-

   29. SKScott Barry Kaufman27:58

       Uh, uh-

   30. CWChris Williamson27:58

       ... to watch the sunset-
9. 29:31 – 34:10

   How to cultivate plateau living: impermanence, ‘last time’ practice, and Maslow’s exercises

   1. CWChris Williamson29:31

      I think you're right. So how do we move from the peak experiences to the peak plateau? How do I make the sunset last all day?

   2. SKScott Barry Kaufman29:41

      Well, I don't know if we, if the goal is to make the sunset last all day. But I think the goal is more, how can we make the moment last while the sunset is still there? That might be subtle, subtle difference. Because part of this highest state of consciousness, uh, that Maslow was talking about in, in The Plateau Experience, is your ability to simultaneously be present in the moment but also be aware of the impermanence of the moment. It's actually this juxtaposition that allows us to have that sense of transcendence. He would have exercises where he would say, you know-... talk to someone and imagine while you're talking to them that this is the last time that you'll ever talk to that person forevermore. How does that change, (laughs) your, your, your, your presence with this person? You know? And I think that... He actually, he came, he came up with a whole list of these activities of pure being, which I have in the book.

   3. CWChris Williamson30:47

      Hit us, hit us with some. I wanna know some of them, Scott.

   4. SKScott Barry Kaufman30:51

      Yeah. This is how living in the realm of pure being. Um, "Perceive the eternal intrinsic laws of the cosmos." No big deal. (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson31:03

      Easy one. Easy one. I do that-

   6. SKScott Barry Kaufman31:05

      Sure.

   7. CWChris Williamson31:05

      Sometimes I do that before breakfast.

   8. SKScott Barry Kaufman31:07

      Yeah, me too. "To accept or even love these laws is Taoistic in the essence of a good citizen of the universe. Embrace your past and p- embrace your guilt rather than running from it. Be compassionate with yourself. Be understanding, accepting, forgiving, and perhaps even loving about your, your f-" I don't even know how to pronounce the word faibles, foiblas, F-A-I-B-L-E-S, "as expressions of human nature."

   9. CWChris Williamson31:30

      Foibles.

   10. SKScott Barry Kaufman31:31

       Foibles, foibles, there we go. Foibles, "as expressions of human nature. Enjoy and smile at yourself. Ask yourself, 'How would this situation look to a child, to the innocent, to a very old person who is beyond personal ambition and competition?' Try to recover the sense of the miraculous about life. For example, a baby is a miracle. Think for that baby now, anything could happen and the sky is the limit. Cultivate the sense of infinite possibility, the sense of admiration, awe, respect, and wonder." Maybe I'll just give you one more, one of m- one of my favorites.

   11. CWChris Williamson32:03

       Hit it.

   12. SKScott Barry Kaufman32:04

       Uh, I, I really like this one. "If you find yourself..." And I, I actually practice this one. I try. "If you find yourself becoming egoistic, arrogant, conceited, or puffed up, think of mortality, or think of other arrogant and conceited people and see how they look. Do you want to look like that? Do you want to take yourself that seriously to be that un-humorous?" I really like that. (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson32:28

       That third-party perspective is, it's so powerful. The, um-

   14. SKScott Barry Kaufman32:33

       Do you do... Oh, sorry. Go on. Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson32:35

       Just the ability to look at, to look at yourself as if you were a friend, you know, as if you were a friend looking at you, watching your actions, um, because you just strip away all the biases, all of the attachments and you go, "Yeah, that... If I saw my friend do that, that would be..."

   16. SKScott Barry Kaufman32:50

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson32:50

       "... that'd be kinda, that'd be kinda weird."

   18. SKScott Barry Kaufman32:54

       Absolutely. And I think that I, I often know who I wanna be by seeing great examples of people I don't wanna be. Do you ev- do you ever, you know, do you ever just like see someone and you're like, "Uh, uh, that's not what... (laughs) That's not my... That wouldn't be my best self"? (laughs)

   19. CWChris Williamson33:13

       Man, I, I learn from other people's failures more than other people's successes, I think.

   20. SKScott Barry Kaufman33:18

       Boom. We'll drop the mic on that one.

   21. CWChris Williamson33:20

       Uh, I love e- I love a mic drop, man. That's what I'm here for. Um, but yeah, I, I, I, honestly, I do. Um, what's that quote? I can't remember the guy. It might be Peter Thiel, 'cause he say, um, "Any idiot can learn from their own experience. I prefer to learn from the experiences of others."

   22. SKScott Barry Kaufman33:35

       Yeah, yeah. I mean, there, and there's so much, that's why great literature stands the test of time. Some of the greatest literature are great stories that transcend the ages, of people failing in all sorts of ways. And yeah, there's not, there's not, not a lot of examples of great literature there about, "Do-do-do, a story of a person who had it all great, (laughs) lived their life great."

   23. CWChris Williamson33:58

       And it was fine.

   24. SKScott Barry Kaufman33:59

       Yeah, it was all good. You know, we, we, we were in a, you know, we passed down from generations to generations archetypes of failures that we can all resonate with and learn from.

10. 34:10 – 40:20

    Freshness of perception and creativity: latent inhibition, beginner’s mind, and meaning

    1. CWChris Williamson34:10

       I wanna talk about familiarization and, and fresh experiences and how this relates to transcendence. Can you talk to-

    2. SKScott Barry Kaufman34:19

       Okay.

    3. CWChris Williamson34:19

       Can you talk to us about that?

    4. SKScott Barry Kaufman34:21

       Yes. So it's like I, I can, I can talk about different levels of nerdiness. What, pick a level from one to five.

    5. CWChris Williamson34:28

       I want five.

    6. SKScott Barry Kaufman34:28

       Five being super nerdy.

    7. CWChris Williamson34:30

       I want five, please. Thank you.

    8. SKScott Barry Kaufman34:33

       Oh, you want... (laughs) Okay. All right. Well, you chose it. (laughs)

    9. CWChris Williamson34:36

       Throw us in, in the deep end. Come on, Scott.

    10. SKScott Barry Kaufman34:38

        Psychologists have studied a, a concept called latent inhibition, which is a biological gating mechanism that, uh, we share with other animals that automatically tags our experience as relevant or irrelevant to a goal that we have in our mind. Uh, our brain does it at a very subconscious and automatic level. It turns out that people who are very creative tend to have a very low latent inhibition. They are very unlikely to tag any experience automatically as, as irrelevant and, um, and, and hi- and inhibit the experience, or idea, or, or things coming into their visual field as, as irrelevant and, and, and, and mark it away, uh, and, and, and, and take it away from the experience. So, people who are creative, and another way of saying that is that they treat experiences that they may have experienced before as irrelevant, they experience it as fresh every time that they see it. You know, this lat- this latent inhibition mechanism that we evolved from other a- and which, which we share with other animals is important so that we don't, as the existential philosopher Soren Kierkegaard said dr- so we don't drown in possibility, you know, it's important to have some sort of gating mechanism, but it's also important not to have too much. You know, it's important, yeah, yes, it's true to learn from the past what is relevant and what's irrelevant and, and to, to tag things as irrelevant if we experience them again in a particular context, but for creative people, often what seemed irrelevant becomes a great insight eventually, becomes, becomes relevant someday. You have to be open to the fact that what was once irrelevant...... may become relevant. I had an example of that on Twitter just yesterday, (laughs) where an idea I- I- I was obsessed about during my dissertation for five years, I wrote, I wrote the, published the paper. No one, no one cared about the paper.

    11. CWChris Williamson36:52

        Hmm.

    12. SKScott Barry Kaufman36:52

        (laughs) Uh, a- a- a whole decade later, you know, feel like a, you know, a failure for my dissertation. I saw its relevance of, of a- of the study to the world we live in today, and I tweeted it out, and it went viral. It went viral amongst nerdy scientists, but that's still k- that's something, that's still something. And, and I was suddenly relevant. So you have to constantly have that faith as a creative human being that things that, uh, you believe in or things that are meaningful to you, uh, that they'll matter. And, but it also, it's important to have a newness of appreciation of things constantly, you know? Um, it, it's, it's great to have gratitude for new things in your life that are good, but it's even better to have gratitude for the things that, that, uh, have become stale to others. If that makes sense.

    13. CWChris Williamson37:44

        Absolutely. Yeah. There's a, a million, a million doorways that I've got open at the moment. So, th- I'm gonna guess this relates to the, the learner's brain or the l- learner's mind in a way, where the first-

    14. SKScott Barry Kaufman37:55

        Yeah, the beginner's mind. Yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson37:56

        Yeah, the beginner's, beginner's mindset, where the first time that you see something, you kind of take more of it in. Um, I had Laura Vanderkam, who wrote Off the Clock on- last year, and she was talking about how one of the best examples of a beginner's, learner's mindset is when you go on holiday. And it's, for instance, I can't tell you anything about my drive to work from the last six months, but I can tell you the type of shoes and the book that the guy that walked us to our boat in Africa two years ago was wearing. You know, I know the exact color of the book, I know how it looked in his hand, I know the way that he walked, I know the color of his jacket. Why? And her argument, you may be able to tell us, uh, her argument was that when your brain gets exposed to new, novel experiences, it doesn't know what it'll need to remember. Therefore, it kind of opens up and tends to sponge in more. I also guess that just generally, when you're somewhere new, your desire to be present, you're not distracted, you're not looking at your phone, you're not thinking about something else. You're like, "Holy fuck, I'm in Africa. Look at this. Look at this guy. Look at his book. Look at his shoes."

    16. SKScott Barry Kaufman39:00

        That's, that's true f- for sure. Also, the emotional experience, the, the, um, valence of the emotional experience matters. I wrote an article for Scientific American, which your, your audience might be interested in. Let's see if I can-

    17. CWChris Williamson39:14

        Link in show notes below. Link will be in show notes below.

    18. SKScott Barry Kaufman39:17

        Oh-ho, thank you. (laughs) Oh, cool. Let me see if I can, uh, find the actual title of it so I don't make up the title on, here on the spot. (laughs)

    19. CWChris Williamson39:23

        Don't make the title of your own, of your own article up, Scott. That would be a bad look.

    20. SKScott Barry Kaufman39:27

        Ex- exa- that'd be, that would be a bad look. Um, uh, let's see. I try to avoid bad looks. Okay. Emotionally extreme experiences, not just positive or negative experiences, are more meaningful in life.

    21. CWChris Williamson39:39

        Yep.

    22. SKScott Barry Kaufman39:39

        So, what the... And this relates actually to po- the peak experiences thing. Peak experiences are, tend to be the most memorable moments in our lives. And it, it, it's not just, you know, it's not, it's not just the positive or negative aspect of it. So that also applies to, to negative aspects of our lives. They still become, uh, the most meaningful moments in our lives. Not saying we don't, we wouldn't rather not have some of those negative moments, but it's really the, uh, the emotional valence of it, just how much it impacts us, uh, that it touches us at an emotional level that, that is a source of meaning for us, not just whether it was positive or negative.

11. 40:20 – 44:56

    Modern comfort and experiential avoidance: why convenience can create meaning crises

    1. CWChris Williamson40:20

       I've been thinking about this a little bit recently, actually, as I was talking, um, about living on the edge. And everybody that's listening plus yourself will have some friends who tend to shy away from the bottom 25 and the top 25% of, um, extremeness with an experience, both good and bad, right? They like to live in that interquartile range. They like to live in that middle 50%. And it does feel quite comfortable, but there's a reason the edges are there, right? Edges wouldn't be there if they weren't there for you to stand on them, and there's nothing more exciting than staring over the edge of a building.

    2. SKScott Barry Kaufman40:59

       Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson40:59

       And I, I really, I really do think that as we start to push ourselves out towards... Obviously, you need to do it safely, like I am not your doctor, every disclaimer under the sun, but, um, you need to allow yourself to go out and experience. And I wonder as well, whether in a world where we're, we have more, so much more convenience, I can get my Uber to the store to d- Deliveroo my gourmet burger back to the house where I watch my Netflix and I then get, you know, Amazon to Prime my next outfit through the door. I wonder whether we are nerfing the edges of the extremeness and the intensity of experience in the modern world.

    4. SKScott Barry Kaufman41:36

       Mm. Yeah, we are. And what we're, what we, like, like, people like to fearmonger, because fearmongering sells. When I say people, I mean marketers.

    5. CWChris Williamson41:50

       (laughs)

    6. SKScott Barry Kaufman41:51

       (laughs) By people, I mean douchebags. No, I'm joking. Uh, yeah. Okay. Do you know what I mean? Like, that, that's what s- they do, whatever sells, they'll do it. So, you know, right now, you know, the coronavirus scare, you see on Facebook, everyone is selling like, "Oh, I have the best, uh, P95 face mask," (laughs) or whatever, "N- N95 face mask, out of everyone else." Uh, fearmongering. Well, what actually is better for growth is to be excited by, by the challenge, you know, as opposed to fear it and avoid it. There's a, um, a form of psychotherapy called ACT, acceptance commitment therapy, don't know if you've heard of it, where it, it shows that experiential avoidance is one of the greatest sources of mental illness.... and that the reverse of that, which, which, which, uh, psychologists call psychological flexibility. Um, or Maslow would actually refer to that, uh, refer to that as, uh, well, I would, I would, Scott Barry Kaufman would refer to that as exploration.

    7. CWChris Williamson43:02

       Yep.

    8. SKScott Barry Kaufman43:02

       You know?

    9. CWChris Williamson43:03

       Got you. Yeah.

    10. SKScott Barry Kaufman43:03

        Like, the, the spirit of exploration allows us to even, to be actually excited by things that most people would fear as a challenge to overcome.

    11. CWChris Williamson43:16

        Life is not lived from the comfort of your couch, man. Like, it, it, it really isn't. And the more that I spend time, um, being able to do what I want-

    12. SKScott Barry Kaufman43:26

        Yeah.

    13. CWChris Williamson43:26

        ... I, I, I run my own business, I have a, a wonderful amount of, of freedom and liberty in my day-to-day life, and I have to check myself to make sure that I'm not taking the path of least resistance because it can become, uh, painfully convenient. Is that, does that make sense? It, it, it-

    14. SKScott Barry Kaufman43:43

        Oh, yes.

    15. CWChris Williamson43:44

        ... becomes destructively convenient. So, I need to consistently try and find novelty, intensity, um, new people, new things to do. Um, but I also think it, it can also, it totally identifies why we might have a crisis of meaninglessness and existential dread and all this sort of stuff because when you're not fighting the lion at the door who's trying to eat half your family or worrying about where your next meal comes from, w- why should you really bother about anything? I can just get Amazon delivered through the door. I, I, you know, I can... Everything's chill, it's fine. But that does lead to the crisis because you're so... The bottom of Maslow's hierarchy of needs is so well-serviced that we now have to actually make a decision about what to do to get to the top. And in a meritocracy, if the people who fail, uh, if the people who succeed are worthy of their own success, then the people who fail are worthy of their own failures. And I think that, that-

    16. SKScott Barry Kaufman44:37

        That's right.

    17. CWChris Williamson44:38

        ... that means that people can get real, real scared. That's not my idea, that is the idea of Alain de Botton, but thank you, Alain, for that one.

    18. SKScott Barry Kaufman44:45

        (laughs) Yeah, no, that's quite all right. And I, I know that, uh, Alain has written about Maslow's hierarchy of needs as well. And-

    19. CWChris Williamson44:54

        Okay.

    20. SKScott Barry Kaufman44:54

        ... no, no, that was, that was, that was well-said.

12. 44:56 – 52:21

    Perspective, ego, and legacy: historian’s view, death anxiety, and everyday ‘being love’

    1. CWChris Williamson44:56

       Can we do, uh, contemplate your life from a historian's point of view? That sounds really cool.

    2. SKScott Barry Kaufman45:00

       Well, that, that, that's one of the, uh, exercises, the, the, the, the exercises of pure being I was, I was running down the list of things. Yeah, if you view yourself from a historian's perspective, you know, what, what is w- this time period and putting it in context of prior context. You know, in a lot of ways, the world is the best it's ever been in, in terms of poverty, in terms of almost any metric you look at.

    3. CWChris Williamson45:32

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SKScott Barry Kaufman45:32

       Steven Pinker has writ- has written about that, you know?

    5. CWChris Williamson45:35

       Yeah.

    6. SKScott Barry Kaufman45:35

       And know that our day-to-day, that's called comfort for our day-to-day living. And what may seem like a catastrophe, but it's certainly better, you know, from a historian's perspective, certainly better to live in 2020 with a virus than 1918, you know, with the in- influenza, uh, pandemic, or I think it was called Spanish flu or something like that.

    7. CWChris Williamson45:58

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    8. SKScott Barry Kaufman45:58

       Um, you know, uh, the, the kind of technologies we have and, uh, and progress we've made, this is probably the best time in human history to have such a pandemic, right? So, yeah, I think the historian's perspective one is putting things in a certain perspective of the rest of humanity and the rest of human history and also thinking about 100, 200 years from now, how will people view the actions we made as well as, is, is, is important to, to think about when we take certain actions.

    9. CWChris Williamson46:32

       Should we be scared or frightful or worried about the fact that realistically in 75 years' time no one will remember our name or what we did?

    10. SKScott Barry Kaufman46:48

        The only, the only part of you that's scared of that is your ego. And if you can transcend the ego, then that just won't be a concern for you anymore. That, that, that question won't, won't matter. Uh, and it's not easy transcending the ego because it's so powerful. It's such a, it seems like such a, a driving force for s- for so many of us. But you look at those who've managed to transcend their fear of death as well and, and some, some, some of, some of that comes from just taking one good LSD trip (laughs) , quite frankly, and, and, and seeing what it, what it means to, to be egoless. And you can enj- then if you can find, it's sort of like a relief for these people who can reach those moments and s- and, and, and people reach it not just through LSD route, I should say, you know, mindfulness meditation, through lot of inner, inner work on integration and, and, and getting outside yourself and helping others. And you realize that it, it doesn't really matter, uh, what really, you know, it, it, it matters what you, what you do in, in your day-to-day life to, to help other human existence, but it doesn't always have to be this grandiose, you know, he str- I started a non-profit and a humanitarian non-profit. You, you know, the stereotypical I have a humanitarian non-profit person, you know, and they're always talking about how (laughs) they have a humanitarian non-profit.

    11. CWChris Williamson48:23

        Yeah.

    12. SKScott Barry Kaufman48:23

        They won't shut up about it. But (laughs) like, but there, I say this in a cheeky way because I don't think we appreciate the person who just by their being in the world every day, they're uplifting others. They're not going on Twitter immediately and announcing it, but they're giving a smile to a stranger on the street. Well, that counts. I mean, there, you know, they, there are so many things throughout the course of the day that count in terms of your existence. You just maximize your existence on a day-to-day basis, I think that's good enough.

    13. CWChris Williamson48:54

        It's like the stereotypical great mum, isn't it? Shout out-

    14. SKScott Barry Kaufman48:59

        Yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson48:59

        ... shout out my mum, Kathy, who'll be listening. Thank you for, uh, for smiling at strangers in the street and doing stuff like that.

    16. SKScott Barry Kaufman49:07

        Yeah. No, uh, that's exactly right. In fact, Abraham Maslow thought that his wife's, his wife Bertha's mom was more self-actualized than he was.

    17. CWChris Williamson49:17

        (laughs)

    18. SKScott Barry Kaufman49:18

        (laughs) So she wasn't-

    19. CWChris Williamson49:19

        That's so funny that some woman who probably can't even, didn't even know, wasn't really that bothered, "Abraham, stop talking about work at the dinner table." Like, all that stuff.

    20. SKScott Barry Kaufman49:28

        Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

    21. CWChris Williamson49:28

        And then she somehow managed to achieve what he, like, more than he did.

    22. SKScott Barry Kaufman49:33

        Yeah, I mean, Abraham Maslow hated his mom, but he really was quite fond of his wife's mom. (laughs)

    23. CWChris Williamson49:38

        Mm-hmm.

    24. SKScott Barry Kaufman49:38

        Which is interesting. And, and, and he really did resent his own mom, that was... That's a whole other story. (laughs)

    25. CWChris Williamson49:43

        Oh, yeah.

    26. SKScott Barry Kaufman49:43

        'Cause she was superstitious and stuff, but... Yeah. But he really thought that his wife Bertha's mom was, was really self-actualized, and, and she was not, um, high achieving. So it was very clear he didn't equate self-actualization with achievement. He really equated it with, with this, what he called being love. Literally being love, you know? And that's not doing what... There's so many, a lot of people that, that do love I- in, in this kind of grandiose virtue signaling sort of way, you know?

    27. CWChris Williamson50:14

        Mm-hmm.

    28. SKScott Barry Kaufman50:14

        But are just assholes to everyone in their daily life. And that's not being love, you know?

    29. CWChris Williamson50:22

        It's the same. It goes back to what we were talking about before to do with the, the, the ascetic who's recounted all worldly possessions, but it's just a signal. You know, I had Robin Hanson on a, a year and a bit ago, and, you know, he's, he's the man for signals, the elephant, the elephant in the brain, right? And, um, Paul Bloom had this great quote as well when I spoke to him, where he said, uh, "There is no such thing as not giving a shit. There is only seeming like you're not giving a shit." It's like everybody's signaling all the time. It's the people for whom... Like, I-

    30. SKScott Barry Kaufman50:55

        Yeah.
13. 52:21 – 55:59

    Can we transcend human nature? From evolutionary modules to integrated purpose

    1. CWChris Williamson52:21

       How do we... We've touched on Robert Wright earlier on, and because I've got Eve Psych in the back of my mind all the time at the moment, I wanna, I wanna kinda touch on that. We spoke about this transcending of the ego, bypassing some of the mechanisms which exist, or they were created because we needed them. We needed to do... Play the game of hierarchy, dominance game. "I am. Look at me. I am here. I am better than this person," because it was all relative and we lived in a band of 50 people. We needed to have a fear of death because it was fitness-enhancing. We needed to X, Y, Z all the way along. Just what does this mean for the future? What does this mean for us as we move forward now as a race, as a species? What are the humans of the future going to be like? Is the hope that we're all just going to become these kind of bonobo, super chill, uh, f- free love man kind of animals? Do you think that that's ever achievable?

    2. SKScott Barry Kaufman53:20

       I, I feel like you're asking a really quite profound question. Could you, could you maybe ask it again?

    3. CWChris Williamson53:24

       (laughs) Yeah, sure.

    4. SKScott Barry Kaufman53:26

       (laughs)

    5. CWChris Williamson53:26

       Um, essentially my question is, can we transcend our nature? That's the, that's-

    6. SKScott Barry Kaufman53:30

       (sighs)

    7. CWChris Williamson53:30

       ... that's the question.

    8. SKScott Barry Kaufman53:31

       Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's a question I, I wrestle with. And, and not only do I think we can... So yes, the answer is I do think we can. I, I... This is the, the spirit of the book, this is the spirit of the book Transcend, is that I think that in order to transcend ourselves, we have to become greater than the sum of our parts. We have to ultimately realize that human beings are not just a, a combination of all of our evolutionary modules, that we can actually become integrated and a whole unit that works towards a conscious purpose of some sort, and that really makes us different than other animals. A lot of evolutionary psychologists get a great glee from pointing out how simila- similar we are to other animals. Like, "Look, we have the same mating patterns as the gorilla." But whilst, and I say whilst 'cause you're in England, that may be true, they're not wrong. I think there's so many aspects of humans that, that make us as... That make us human. And that was the spirit of Maslow and the humanistic psychologists, and I'm trying to bring that spirit back.

    9. CWChris Williamson54:47

       Man, I love it. Uh, there's, uh, to... My final quote that I've got is from a guy called Daniel Schmactenberger. Do you know him, from Civilization Emerging?

    10. SKScott Barry Kaufman54:56

        He's a good friend of mine. (laughs)

    11. CWChris Williamson54:57

        No way. So I was supposed to speak to him-

    12. SKScott Barry Kaufman54:59

        Yeah.

    13. CWChris Williamson54:59

        I was supposed to speak to him on Sunday, but we-

    14. SKScott Barry Kaufman55:01

        Huh.

    15. CWChris Williamson55:02

        ... we got the time, we got the times wrong. And he's got, from that, um, uh, talk on emergence that he gave on YouTube.

    16. SKScott Barry Kaufman55:10

        Yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson55:10

        And in that he has this brilliant quote, which is that as human beings, because of our level of consciousness and the fact that we can interject into the way that we're programmed from nature, we're not just passengers, we're the captains of the ship.

    18. SKScott Barry Kaufman55:25

        Mm-hmm.

    19. CWChris Williamson55:25

        And that distinction between the two, between being a passenger and being the captain, that's, it would appear that that's kind of what we're talking about here.

    20. SKScott Barry Kaufman55:34

        For sure. Dan- Dano and I had some good conversations about just that topic strolling along San Diego's streets. (laughs)

    21. CWChris Williamson55:42

        You should have recorded that.

    22. SKScott Barry Kaufman55:43

        And you'll remember-

    23. CWChris Williamson55:43

        I'll tell you what, if you'd recorded that, I would have listened.

    24. SKScott Barry Kaufman55:45

        (laughs) Well, well, uh, actually, you can listen to me and him talking on his podcast. Um, uh, a couple years ago, he had me on his podcast, and we had a great chat about self-actualization. (laughs)

    25. CWChris Williamson55:57

        That's awesome. Um, look.

    26. SKScott Barry Kaufman55:59

        Yeah. Yeah.

14. 55:59 – 57:52

    Closing: resources, Scott’s work, and a final distinction (IQ vs truth-seeking motivation)

    1. CWChris Williamson55:59

       Uh, uh, Scott, I'm conscious that I've, I've taken up a bunch of your time, and, uh ...

    2. SKScott Barry Kaufman56:03

       Thank you.

    3. CWChris Williamson56:04

       ... I need to, I need to let you get back because you've got a wave of coronavirus out there. So Transcend, it is out 7th of April. So a link will be in the show notes below to pre-order. And if people want to hassle you online, where should they go?

    4. SKScott Barry Kaufman56:20

       Oh, I'd really like it if people could check out the Psychology Podcast, which is my own podcast. Um, scottbarrykaufman.com, uh, has all the episodes as well as, uh, a free self-actualization personality test they can take, uh, so that's scottbarrykaufman.com. And then also on Twitter, I'm very active on Twitter. Um, if you wanna see my ha- my half-baked ramblings. (laughs)

    5. CWChris Williamson56:42

       (laughs)

    6. SKScott Barry Kaufman56:43

       Go on Twitter, you know?

    7. CWChris Williamson56:44

       I wanna watch you go viral with a bunch of, uh, a bunch of psychology nerds. That's what I wanna see.

    8. SKScott Barry Kaufman56:49

       Oh, well, yes. Uh, my most recent tweet, uh, did, did pretty well, uh, showing that, uh, IQ is different, arguing in a study I did my dissertation, my doctoral dissertation, that IQ is not the same thing as the motivation for truth-seeking. (laughs) They are different things.

    9. CWChris Williamson57:04

       Now that, if ever I've heard a title that is Daniel Schmactenberger, it is that one.

    10. SKScott Barry Kaufman57:08

        (laughs) Wonderful. Yeah.

    11. CWChris Williamson57:10

        You know what I mean?

    12. SKScott Barry Kaufman57:12

        Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

    13. CWChris Williamson57:13

        Look, Scott, man, thank you so much for your time. Links to everything that we've spoken about will be in the show notes below, of course. Transcend: New Science of Self-Actualization will be in there, Psychology Podcast, scottbarrykaufman.com. All that good stuff. You know what to do: like, share, and subscribe. If you got any questions, feel free to get in touch with me. But for now, Scott, thanks, man.

    14. SKScott Barry Kaufman57:33

        Thank you, Chris. It was a great chat. (laughs)

    15. CWChris Williamson57:39

        Out fans. Yeah. Oh, why. Yeah. Out fans.

Episode duration: 57:52