The Personal Pain of Country Music - HARDY (4K)

Chris Williamson 0:00 Work hard and be nice. Is that basically your career philosophy?

HARDY 0:05 Yeah. Have I said that exact, exactly before? I feel like I have. I, I feel like that's, like, the number one, um... [inhales] You know, honestly, if I put them in order, it would be n- be, be nice first and work hard, uh, second. Not, not, not like, you know, um, don't dismiss working hard, but man, being, being a good hanger, just being somebody that somebody wants in the room will take you so far, I feel like, in, in any, any sort of, any job atmosphere at all.

Chris Williamson 0:35 Why? I, I would've assumed, especially in music, if you're some virtuoso guitarist-

HARDY 0:41 Nobody likes an asshole, dude. It doesn't matter how good you are at something. I, I just... Nobody wants that person in the room, I feel like, and, and, uh, I just... How many times-- I, I cannot tell you how many times I've done podcasts, or we've gotten a VIP tour of something, or we had a driver, you know, in LA or in New York, and then we've been like: "You ever had anybody that was just terrible to work with?" And people just remember that, man, and it's, a lot of times it's people that are, like, really famous and really successful and very talented. And, and there's just-- I know that people like drivers and, you know, people that give Disney World tours and stuff like that are not people that are gonna, uh, you know, help advance your career. But, but I think that transcends stuff like that, and, um, just being nice to people and making, making sure everybody is appreciated and feels comfortable around you, and I just think it's important.

Chris Williamson 1:34 There's a guy called Paul Graham, who's an investor and a writer from the UK, or he lives in the UK now. He's got this great idea: "Famous jerks are not role models. Some talented people are jerks, and this sometimes makes it seem to the inexperienced that being a jerk is part of being talented. It isn't. Being talented is merely how they get away with being a jerk."

HARDY 1:53 Oh, wow, that's really good.

Chris Williamson 1:55 I think it's true.

HARDY 1:56 Yeah, totally, 100%.

Chris Williamson 1:57 The, the success is not because of them being an asshole. The fact that they are successful is how they get away with being an asshole.

HARDY 2:04 Yeah. 100%.

Chris Williamson 2:07 [laughing]

HARDY 2:07 Yeah. It's a para- Would you call it a paradox?

Chris Williamson 2:09 A little bit.

HARDY 2:09 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 2:10 Uh, well, it's certainly, uh, it's certainly surprising because it gives people this idea that, oh, ego is where the success has been, like, uh, cultivated from-

HARDY 2:20 Right

Chris Williamson 2:20 ... as opposed to the fact that, like, the success gave them this buffer zone where people are, "Oh, I can't be too mean to HARDY 'cause, like, you know, like, look at all the songs he does and stuff. He's a bit of a dick," you know, whatever.

HARDY 2:30 Yeah. Right.

Chris Williamson 2:30 Um, so, I mean, it, it's kind of surprising 'cause I think a lot of people in jobs, they see it as being transactional, um, that if you are good at X, you will get Y. But there's the packaging that your talent, uh, comes in, which is like, "Well, are you a good hang? How are you on the bus? What's your morale like when you've done three shows in three days, and everybody's tired?" It's like, are you the one that brings everybody up, or are you the one that's like, "Ah, dude, this is so tough. This is so hard. I'm missing the..." what da, da, da, da. It's like everyone's doing that.

HARDY 2:58 Yeah. Yeah. No, it's very true, man, and it's just [inhales] ... [exhales] I've always just kind of thought that it's like, it takes way more effort to be a, you know, like an asshole than just to be nice. And there's- I mean, I've, I've had my moments, I mean, for sure, where I just, I'm, I'm exhausted or mentally drained or my meter is at all-time zero, and, and those are moments where I feel like I just get more quiet more than, more than anything. But, um, man, it, it's just so much easier to be just nice to people and, and just keep a smile on your face and keep it light and just do, do what you gotta do. And even if it's something you don't wanna do, you do it anyway and, and, and have fun with it, and I don't know. It just seems way less effort to do that.

Chris Williamson 3:39 In your experience, is being a good guy, uh, a performance enhancer rather than trying to be ruthless and screwing people over?

HARDY 3:48 W- What do you mean by that?

Chris Williamson 3:50 If you're a nice person, are they the ones that end up winning in the end? Because there is a, a sense that ruthlessness and being cutthroat and, you know, sort of like going for it-

HARDY 4:00 Sure

Chris Williamson 4:00 ... aggressive, lean in, oh, well, that's how you achieve success.

HARDY 4:04 I don't think, I don't, I don't think there's a real true answer to that 'cause I think there's tons of people. I think- I would like to think that more nice people win, f- certainly, but, um, I don't think it's true every time by any means.

Chris Williamson 4:19 Mm. Well, I'm interested for you, especially about the tension between being a songwriter and an artist, right? Because you've got- you're part of the Nashville engine.

HARDY 4:27 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 4:28 Uh, I was talk- talking to a friend yesterday who put you as, like, one of the best three songwriters in Nashville, which is probably about as competitive as it can be.

HARDY 4:35 That's very nice.

Chris Williamson 4:36 Um, but you're behind the scenes. You were behind the scenes, then you become in front of the scenes, and now you've got to try and balance these two worlds.

HARDY 4:45 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 4:46 Uh, what's the, what's the tension like between being artist and also being, um, like, contributor to other artists at the same time?

HARDY 4:54 I try not to think about it, really. Um, you know, I mean, I've, I'm very thankful to have started out as a songwriter because I feel like I can jump right in and never skip a beat, you know? I can tour for six months or whatever and barely write a song and then s- just jump right in and write for somebody else, and it's, like, not difficult at all. But, um, I've never really thought about the balance or, like, the pressure between the two at all. I mean, to be completely candid, touring is a lot more lucrative than songwriting. So it- a little bit of that takes the pressure off of, like, having to make a career out of songwriting, but I have- I just want to, to write hits for other people so bad that, um, I will just never not want to do that. It's why I moved to town. It's my first love, and-

Chris Williamson 5:38 Mm

HARDY 5:38 ... I just love having great songs and, like, giving that song to somebody and hoping that it helps their career and, uh, and all that. But I've never really felt pressure. There's definitely been times where I have been like, "Okay," like, I'll hit up my management-... or link my management and my pub- publishing and be like, "Hey, guys, we need to find a balance. Like, I need to write more songs." 'Cause it's just, it's a tank that I have, that if it's, if it's empty, I, you know, I feel a little bit less sense of purpose if I haven't been writing songs, whether... No matter what they may be. And, and so, um, you know, there's times where I become a little more aware that I need to, I need to sort of re- redistribute my, my time.

Chris Williamson 6:15 Mm.

HARDY 6:15 But, um, I've, I've never really felt the pressure to, to do o- one more than the other, or, like, you know, one's, one's falling behind. I, I, you know, I try to keep them even or anything like that. It's, it's just... I, I don't know. I, I try to, try to take the pressure off myself, and, and I think it makes for more creativity and better, better creative moments and stuff when you don't feel pressure to write hits or, like, you know, pressure to write so many songs or anything like that.

Chris Williamson 6:39 What if you write, what if you write a real slammer? There must be a sense in your mind where you go, "Well, do I... Is this, uh, me? Do I just, like, keep this one in the, in the HARDY folder, or is this like-

HARDY 6:49 Yeah, that happens a lot. It happens all the time. Um, [chuckles] the, uh... It's funny, I, uh, there's a lot of songs, though, that I just, it's a slammer, but it's just not for me. And, and, and, uh, there's a lot of time, a lot of writers that I have, even friends of mine, that I'm- that are like, "You sure?"

Chris Williamson 7:06 [laughing]

HARDY 7:06 Or, like, I can tell, I'm like, "Man, this would be good for... This would be great for, you know, Blake Shelton." And, and they're like, "Oh yeah, cool." You know, and, and-

Chris Williamson 7:13 Maybe a little butter.

HARDY 7:14 But you was like, "Eh." Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but even that is very... I usually know by, by, by the time we get, like, verse chorus, if I'm gonna, if I'm gonna cut the song or if I'm gonna, you know, give it to someone else or, or hope- hopefully give it to someone else.

Chris Williamson 7:27 Mm. I was talking to, uh, John Bellion, he was on the show a couple of weeks ago, and, um, obviously, he took this big hiatus from being an artist-

HARDY 7:35 Mm-hmm

Chris Williamson 7:35 ... to just do the songwriting thing. And he said he knew when [chuckles] uh, he was ready to get back to producing music because he would have, you know, this list of demos or whatever, he'd have 15 demos, and he'd be showing it to, uh, whoever was in the studio with him, and there would always be one or two tracks that he would just, like, he'd skip over the top of.

HARDY 7:54 Ah.

Chris Williamson 7:54 He'd leave that one to one side.

HARDY 7:56 Ah, that's funny.

Chris Williamson 7:56 He never showed that.

HARDY 7:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 7:57 And I thought that was so cute, because he was like, "Oh, I really, really like that one."

HARDY 8:01 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, for me, I, I, the LA approach is very different, I think, and... But I will say, like, I don't ever sh- play anybody my best stuff, like, ever, until it's, until it's out. I just like the big reveal, and, um, and, uh, you know, the, the keeping it a secret, I just feel like it's more of, like, an explosion when it comes out, even with your friends and stuff. You know, it's... To get Nashville talking about a song is very- is just as important as, like, the public hearing about it, I think.

Chris Williamson 8:28 Mm.

HARDY 8:28 I just think that people buzz about a song, and, and, um, I don't know what it is, but there's just something about Nashville buzzing about a song that, that just helps it

HARDY 8:37 always.

Chris Williamson 8:38 What do people not understand about how the Nashville scene works?

HARDY 8:41 In what way?

Chris Williamson 8:43 Generally, I mean, it is a... It's a fucking engine for music.

HARDY 8:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 8:48 It's a factory for music. Uh, but at least from, from my perspective, the fact that you have, uh, a room where anybody who... Typically, you've got, like, the, the writer credit of, "Dude, you were over the far side chewing on a toothpick," or whatever. Like, "Thank you for being in the room. You contributed to this." The fact that you will have multiple different rooms going at one time, and artists will bounce between those-

HARDY 9:10 Mm-hmm

Chris Williamson 9:10 ... if they're really, really trying to crank it. Um, it seems to me like there aren't many scenes like Nashville when it comes to, to writing music, maybe anywhere on the planet.

HARDY 9:19 It's very different. I mean, I think Nashville's work ethic is better than other cities I've, I've written in. Um, I think that top-liners, like lyric and melody, or l- uh, at least lyric writers, storytellers, um, I think it's the best in the world. Um, I think that Nashville has the greatest storytellers in the world. Uh, and it is. It's, it's a machine, and it all starts with the song, which I think is really cool, man. And, like, right now, today, what time is it right now? It's, it's 10:11 right now. There are more... There's probably 300 rooms of people writing songs right now in Nashville, trying to get the next hit. Excuse me. And there's a lot of those songs that are gonna be, have potential to be the next, you know, in, within the next year, a big old hit, and it's, it's, it's kind of off to the races from there, you know? And I think it's the coolest thing ever.

Chris Williamson 10:10 Is there something about country as a musical style which affords storytelling, uh, more room than other genres do?

HARDY 10:19 Yeah, sure. Uh, I think that can go back to a long time ago, and I... You know, like, and, well, it's, a-- much of country music's biggest songs have been stories, and so I just think it's a pattern. If that's kind of what you're getting at, um, are you... I mean, basically, are you just saying, like, why, why is, why, why is it easier or more common to write stories in country than any other, any other thing?

Chris Williamson 10:50 To a degree, yeah. And then is there something to do with the structure of country as a, a, a genre, which affords more s- more room for storytelling? Like a rock, right? Or, like, just very unique ways to piece a story together and then keep on looping things back. Um...

HARDY 11:09 I don't know. That's a really good question.

Chris Williamson 11:11 I, so... If I was to, like, put my total amateur, uh, theory forward, uh, it's so lyric driven. It's so vocals heavy.

HARDY 11:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:20 Like, are, are there many country songs where people go, "Dude, I just love the riff," right? Well, no, but with something like, um, "Caramel" by Sleep Token-

HARDY 11:29 [chuckles]

Chris Williamson 11:30 ... that plucky little intro thing-

HARDY 11:31 Yeah, it's great

Chris Williamson 11:31 ... that it has, is as... Yeah, exactly.

HARDY 11:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:34 Like, it almost... The first time I ever heard it, I thought, "Is this, like, some, like, reggaeton Jamaican-

HARDY 11:39 Yeah

Chris Williamson 11:39 ... inspired?" 'Cause it almost does have that sound.

HARDY 11:41 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:41 Like, bung-ging-ging.

HARDY 11:42 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:43 Bing-ging-ging.

HARDY 11:44 Mm.

Chris Williamson 11:44 So I'm like, all right, well, that is as much a part... And if you move into metal or more hard stuff, well, the riff actually can be the lead. That's what people love.... but with country, very rarely is it gonna be that. It's much more about, it's driven by the-

HARDY 11:58 Yeah, it's way less about the music, for sure-

Chris Williamson 12:00 Yep

HARDY 12:00 -like, the arrangement. Um, I think that producers would argue, you know, like, you, they're... My producer, Joey, is like, "You gotta fill the space," and, and, uh, you know, takes a lot of time to, in the studio, to make sure, like, the parts are right and that everything is catchy, and there's just a bunch of- that all the spaces are filled. But, uh, no, it is very much, it's, it's, it's, it's all about the, um, the lyrics. You're right. And very... I mean, the vocal is out front, and that's everything, at least right now. People can argue that, like, that, that subgenre of country that's like Whiskey Myers and, and a lot of the sync country is like, which is like S-Y-N-C, like, you know, a lot of the stuff that you hear on the TV shows and stuff is more about music and, and less about lyric. But, um, I don't know. I can't r- really speak to that, but, um, no, you're, you're totally right. I, it's, it's just the way it's always been, and, and the country, country's never really been about anything other than the, the lyrics and the vocal-

Chris Williamson 12:54 Mm-hmm

HARDY 12:54 ... you know, or both at the same time.

Chris Williamson 12:56 Mm.

Chris Williamson 12:57 Talk to me about where inspiration and creativity comes from for you or what sort of your creative process looks like because you've got a bunch of stuff going on. Um, high-volume, uh, writing for other people. I, I've heard you say it's between sort of two and three days a week-

HARDY 13:14 Mm-hmm

Chris Williamson 13:14 ... that you're cranking that out.

HARDY 13:16 Yeah, on a good... Like, when, in a good, yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:18 When you're not on tour-

HARDY 13:18 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Chris Williamson 13:19 ... and you've got a little bit of time, and maybe not a new dad. Um, but then you've also got your own stuff. You've got your own obligations, but then you've also got this balance between volume of output and quality of output. You can't be doing five songs a day, three days a week, and maximizing-

HARDY 13:37 Right

Chris Williamson 13:37 ... in the same way that you would if it was-

HARDY 13:38 Sure

Chris Williamson 13:39 ... spending a little bit more time. So I'm interested in this balance, yeah, inspiration and creativity with, uh, output.

HARDY 13:45 I mean, you know, the one cool thing about Nashville, before I even get into this, is we all stand- the songwriters all stand on each other's shoulders, and, you know, [exhales] thankfully there's so much, like, collaboration and, and, um, um, camaraderie within that, you know, in Nashville, that, like, you know, you go into a room with some people and, and, um, like, I might be exhausted. I might have not been in a good, like, idea headspace, and, uh, you go in, and, like, your buddy or whoever you're writing with has the idea, and it's just like, "Oh, thank God!" You know what I mean?

Chris Williamson 14:19 [laughing]

HARDY 14:19 Like, that pressure is off, and now I can just latch onto this idea and help write this in the room. But, you know, um, so that, you know, so your collaborators always make it a lot easier on you. It's like if you and I, or it's like if you asked me to move this table across the room, or we got six people to do it, and the, the weight is a lot lighter, and that's what it's always felt like for me. So, um, first and foremost, if you don't have an idea, don't, don't let your panic or your, um, your inhibition put that, you know, the cloud over your creative bubble, um, because you just have to always trust that somebody's gonna have something if you don't, you know? And that, that helps with the creative process. But, uh, man, for me, I just, I t- I have a running list of, uh... I'll scroll fast so nobody steals my shit.

Chris Williamson 15:07 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

HARDY 15:07 But, uh-

Chris Williamson 15:08 We can bl- we can, we can blur it. I'll, I'll see, so I can-

HARDY 15:11 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 15:11 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

HARDY 15:11 You'll see. 'Cause I'm writing after this today, too.

Chris Williamson 15:13 Amazing.

HARDY 15:14 Um, but these are just all song, either lines or notes or whatever, and it, it dates back to, like, probably 10 years ago. It's just a running list of notes. Mine, mine is short. I've, I see people scroll through theirs, and they're super long, and I'm like, "Damn, bro."

Chris Williamson 15:28 Well, you keep on turning them into songs, which is an advantage. [laughing]

HARDY 15:30 Well, that's true. That's true, and then you have, then you have to delete it. Sometimes it's, like, sad. You're like, "Damn, I've been looking at that idea for, you know, two or three years," and you delete it. But, um, man, yeah, and, you know, I, I know that's not exactly what you were getting at, but I love talking about this because it's so, like any other office or whatever it may be, it's like you walk... You, you, everybody has their ideas, and then you walk into a publishing house or even someb- usually, a lot of times these days, it's either somebody's studio or their home studio, but, like, you just walk in, and you know everybody now, so it's just like... It's, there's, it's not, it's not this, like, light a candle, kumbaya. You know, like, somebody's like, "Man, I just went through this horrible heartbreak. Let's blah, blah, blah." You know, it's just, it's not like that. And-

Chris Williamson 16:11 Mm.

HARDY 16:11 ... but I love that it's, that we can, like, take a moment where we're at, we're walking in, and we're like, "What up?" You know, and, and you get your coffee-

Chris Williamson 16:18 You get down to business.

HARDY 16:19 ... and, you know, I'm a big deer hunter, and most, a lot of Nashville writers are big deer hunters, so right now we're just talking about deer hunting, and then everybody goes, "Oh, well, let's see here." And then somebody's like, "Heart," you know, "Heart's on fire," and you just start throwing out random ideas, and, uh, and it's just, one of them sticks, and then you write it because everybody in the room is a professional songwriter, and then a year later, it's, like, a seven-week number [chuckles] one. Dude, it's like, it's just crazy to me. But it's, it's... But I, what I'm getting at is how not, um, it's not like, it's not as... You would never think that it's, like, not a creative, you know, from the heart kind of thing because it's country music, and, like, these, the stories are so good, and they make people cry and-

Chris Williamson 17:02 Mm-hmm

HARDY 17:02 ... but, but these songwriters, like myself and other people, it's like we're not crying in the room, but when we write a line, we're like, "This is gonna, this is gonna hammer somebody. It's gonna make..." Like, you know, but, and we mean that not in a funny way, but, like, in a very, like-

Chris Williamson 17:14 Mm-hmm

HARDY 17:14 ... you know, like, "This is gonna help a lot." Like, when I, w- when we wrote Wait in the Truck-

Chris Williamson 17:18 Mm.

HARDY 17:18 ... when we, like, finished that song in Jordan Schmidt, in his home studio, like, played that song top down, we all looked at each other, and we were like, "Dude, this is going to destroy some people," and that's like w- we did our job that day, you know? And, um, but anyway, it's just, I love the creative process. I probably went way off on a tangent, but I just, I love talking about how not creative the creative process looks, you know, and, and we're not sitting in a vibey room, and, and I... Some, some places are like that, and that's totally fine. Like, I know LA, it's a lot about, more about, like, getting in the mood and-

Chris Williamson 17:49 Waving sage or-

HARDY 17:50 Certain artists like to have-

Chris Williamson 17:50 ... burning some sage, waving that around.

HARDY 17:52 Yeah, you know, and certain candles that smell a certain way and all that.

Chris Williamson 17:55 [chuckles]

HARDY 17:55 But, man, in Nashville, it's truly just a bunch of normal guys and girls, normal-looking people, that are just in- their brains are just wired different, and they're incredibly good at what they do.

Chris Williamson 18:05 Mm.

HARDY 18:05 But they, you know, and it just-... you just would never know it, and I, I just think that's the coolest thing ever. Some of the most creative people in the world, s- some people in the world, some people in this town have the ability to make people, like, bawl their eyes out that live anywhere that, anywhere that can speak English, you know? And they just are like a, you know, a chubby dude that just goes to the grocery store every other day and, and lets his dogs out every night and, uh, you know, in the afternoon. Like, it's just, it's cool to me. It's, like, the coolest thing ever.

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Chris Williamson 19:39 The only equivalent that I can, [inhales] uh, get from my world, writing and, and podcasting, is sometimes I'll come across something that I've never heard of before. There was this, uh, love letter that Richard Feynman wrote, um, to his wife. And I [sighs] stumbled upon it and was thinking about it for ages before I actually talked about it, 'cause I didn't know if I could say it without crying.

HARDY 20:02 Mm.

Chris Williamson 20:02 And it's basically this, uh, love letter to his wife, Arline, that he hasn't written for quite a long time, and then about two-thirds of the way through the love letter, you find out that she's dead, and he's writing this to his wife that's passed away.

HARDY 20:14 Oh, my God, dude!

Chris Williamson 20:15 So I like-

HARDY 20:16 Ah! [chuckles]

Chris Williamson 20:17 Bro, it's-

HARDY 20:18 [laughs]

Chris Williamson 20:19 Do you want me to read it to you? Let me read it to you.

HARDY 20:20 God, I, I don't know. I don't think I've ever cried on camera before, but sure.

Chris Williamson 20:23 Let's see if we can do it.

HARDY 20:24 Jesus Christ.

Chris Williamson 20:26 Well, I've already, uh-

HARDY 20:27 Tear up literally just a- like saying it, but you've already... At least you've given it away, so it takes the shock away-

Chris Williamson 20:32 I've warned you a little bit

HARDY 20:32 ... Spoiler alert.

Chris Williamson 20:33 All right. "October 17th, 1946. To Arline, I adore you, sweetheart. I know how much you like to hear that, but I don't only write it because you like it. I write it because it makes me warm all over inside to write it to you. It is such a terribly long time since I last wrote to you, almost two years, but I know you'll excuse me because you understand how I am, stubborn and realistic, and I thought there was no sense to writing. But now I know, my darling wife, that it is right to do what I have delayed in doing and that I have done so much in the past. I want to tell you I love you. I want to love you. I will always love you. I find it hard to understand in my mind what it means to love you after you are dead-

HARDY 21:16 Mm.

Chris Williamson 21:17 ... but I still want to comfort and take care of you, and I want you to love me and care for me. I want to have problems to discuss with you. I want little projects with you. I never thought until just now that we can do that. What should we do? We started to learn to make clothes together, or learn Chinese, or get a movie projector. Can't I do something now? No, I'm alone without you, and you were the idea woman and general instigator of all our wild adventures. When you were sick, you worried that you could not give me something that you wanted to and thought I needed. You needn't have worried. Just as I told you then, there was no real need because I loved you in so many ways, so much, and now it is clearly even more true. You can give me nothing now, yet I love you so that you stand in my way of loving anyone else. But I want you to stand there. You, dead, are so much better than anyone else alive."

HARDY 22:17 Mm. My God!

Chris Williamson 22:19 "I know you will assure me that I am foolish and that you want me to have full happiness and don't want to be in my way. I bet you are surprised that I don't even have a girlfriend, except you, sweetheart, after two years. But you can't help it, darling, nor can I. I don't understand it, for I have met many girls and very nice ones, and I don't want to remain alone. But in two or three meetings, they all seem ashes. You only are left to me. You are real. My darling wife, I do adore you. I love my wife. My wife is dead. P.S. Please excuse my not mailing this, but I don't know your new address."

HARDY 22:59 Oh, my God. Jesus, man. [inhales] Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm... That's, that's insane. It's, it's, it's, like, i- is that real? That's a real thing he did for his real wife? So, like, there's still- there's so much poetry in, in there. I mean, I, there's so much... To me, part of the, the gag or the, like, the, the trick is, is not revealing the thing until it's, like, the perfect time, right? So, like, that's the thing, you know?

Chris Williamson 23:31 "I don't understand. I, I, I struggle to know what it means to love you after you are dead."

HARDY 23:34 Yeah, and, and, and the songwriting, from a songwriting, you would probably wait till the very end, you know, to do that.

Chris Williamson 23:40 Mm-hmm.

HARDY 23:41 But even still, like, it's... Waiting on that is such a poetic, it's such a- I mean, it, it's, it's a simple... You know, we call it a trick, but-

Chris Williamson 23:49 Mm-hmm

HARDY 23:49 ... but, uh, yeah, that's, that's beautiful. I mean, it's... I'm trying to think of a song that I have or that I know of that has, like, a twist at the very end of a song. Um-... but you kind of have to like, "Oh, shit, I gotta listen to that again." [chuckles] You know, like, I miss- I missed it. It's like a M. Night Shyamalan movie, and you miss-

Chris Williamson 24:08 Yeah

HARDY 24:09 - the sixth sense, and you're like-

Chris Williamson 24:09 Like Christopher Nolan or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

HARDY 24:11 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're like, "Wait, he was dead the whole time? But he was talking to that person. [laughing] Wait, he wasn't talking to her-

Chris Williamson 24:15 You gotta go back and watch it

HARDY 24:15 ... so he was talking to nobody."

Chris Williamson 24:16 Yeah.

HARDY 24:16 Yeah, yeah. That's, that's, those are, those are the best, man.

Chris Williamson 24:20 So for me, finding something like that, uh, is the kind of equivalent of going into the room and being like, "Fuck, like, is this right? Is this..." And then you finally find something, and you go, "This deserves to get out there." Like, this is... How can I craft this in a way- there's other little bits and pie- m- most of the time, it's not a big chunk, right? It's you tell a story, and then you repurpose it. You rework it around. Uh, I've heard you say, "Dark songs tell the truth in a way happy songs can't."

HARDY 24:47 Yeah. It's weird.

Chris Williamson 24:49 How so?

HARDY 24:50 I don't know. Because people... Maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm just, like, just dark, darker than maybe I even think I am, but, like, I have just, like, songs about dark things, even if there's a hopeful... Like a "Wait in the Truck," you know? That's like a very... It's, like, a hero story, but people just gravitate towards that more, I've always found. I, I don't know why, but, like, [sighs] I'm trying to think of another, a good example. But, um, I don't know. I, I mean, again, maybe I haven't done a study, I haven't done... You know, I haven't surveyed 1,000 people, but it just seems that, like, sad songs or, like, heart- really, really good heartbreak songs or death, you know, people dying songs-

Chris Williamson 25:34 Mm-hmm

HARDY 25:34 ... um, even if they are, they have a happy, uh, lesson in them, like a live like you were dying kind of thing, there's just people, people attach themselves to that stuff more. Um, I do think that there's a lot of d- like, a lot of dark moments in people's lives, and I think that, you know, if you c- if you can find a way to relate to that, and that be a song, then you're gonna probably attach to that-

Chris Williamson 26:01 Mm

HARDY 26:01 ... you know, pretty, pretty hard. But, um, I, yeah, I don't know why, but I just, I feel like... And it's so weird. Dark songs are so much easier [chuckles] to write.

Chris Williamson 26:11 You think?

HARDY 26:12 Yeah, for me. I mean, for me personally, and it's like, if you have a, you know, if somebody threw out a s- a song called "The Best Day Ever" or whatever, you know, I'd be like, "I don't know, man."

Chris Williamson 26:20 "The Worst Day Ever".

HARDY 26:21 Yeah-

Chris Williamson 26:21 I'd listen to that

HARDY 26:21 ... I'd be like, "How would you do that? How would you spin- would you spin that a certain way?" Or like, you know... Yeah, exactly.

Chris Williamson 26:25 Mm.

HARDY 26:26 It's weird. I, maybe that's just me. My wife kinda, she kinda gives me hell a lot, a- and, uh, or, or let's just say gives me encouragement 'cause, uh, I'll... You know, this last record I had spoke a lot about mortality, like, a lot-

Chris Williamson 26:38 Mm

HARDY 26:38 ... and, uh, a lot of it was in a very positive way of like, appreciate your life now, 'cause, you know, one day you won't be here. But, um, she was like, "You need to write happier songs."

Chris Williamson 26:47 Stop fucking whining.

HARDY 26:47 Yeah, [chuckles] yeah, dude.

Chris Williamson 26:49 Yeah.

HARDY 26:49 You're so emo, like-

Chris Williamson 26:50 Yeah. Yeah. [chuckles]

HARDY 26:50 Yeah, like, write some happier stuff. So maybe I should, but it's just, it's, it's not as easy. It's-

Chris Williamson 26:55 Well, I-

HARDY 26:56 ... tough

Chris Williamson 26:56 ... I guess, uh, Luke Combs' album, maybe the one before last, um, that was everything's great, and life's going well, and, you know, Dad's getting a bit older, but my son's growing up, and he misses me when I'm away, but my wife's good, and you're like, okay, well, that's, that's a pivot, right? From like, this is broken, and that's not so great.

HARDY 27:14 Yeah, true.

Chris Williamson 27:15 He's-

HARDY 27:15 Yeah, he kind of had the emo i- in his own, in his own way, right?

Chris Williamson 27:17 He had the emo phase early on.

HARDY 27:18 Phone number away, and-

Chris Williamson 27:19 Cut the fringe off, and then-

HARDY 27:20 [chuckles] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:21 Um, yeah, it is a, it is a, a really interesting blend to think about why people resonate. Here's one thing: I, I think people feel alone in their sadness in a way that causes them to try and seek, uh, companionship or comfort, so like, "Fuck, like, somebody else feels that."

HARDY 27:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:45 As opposed to, if everything's going great, and if you're happy, like, yeah, sure, it's nice that someone else is also g- happy along with you or whatever, but-

HARDY 27:52 It's just hard to, like, relate to somebody that's... It's so weird. I don't know why that is a thing, but you're totally right. You're like, "You're having a great... I'm having a great day!" You know, like, nobody ever says that.

Chris Williamson 28:02 Yeah.

HARDY 28:02 But if somebody's having a bad day, you're like, "Oh, my God-

Chris Williamson 28:04 Come here-

HARDY 28:04 ... tell me about it."

Chris Williamson 28:05 Let me... Yeah, exactly.

HARDY 28:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:07 Um, yeah, every man knows God when he's at his lowest.

HARDY 28:11 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 28:11 Right? You reflect so much more. Uh, there was this cool story from, uh, a, a coach of mine, Joe. He talks about his daughter. She was, like, nine at the time, and, um, she was crying in the bathroom. Um, and the way that she was crying, he said, "You, you don't sound that sad to me. You sound pissed off."

HARDY 28:29 Mm.

Chris Williamson 28:30 And she's like: "I am!" He said, "Well, you know when you're, when you're crying in the bathroom, how often are you pissed off, and how often are you sad?" She says, "About half the time." He said, "Well, how come you cry? Like, why, why are you crying if you're angry half the time? If you're pissed off, how come you're crying?" And she says, "Well, when I'm angry, everybody runs away. But when I cry, my sister comes and looks after me."

HARDY 28:53 Mm. Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 28:55 I just thought it was such a brilliant insight into this sort of the pro-social, not seductive, but, uh, like, attractive, gravitational force of sadness.

HARDY 29:07 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 29:07 And I think a lot of the time, even when people are mad, they sometimes turn it into being sad. 'Cause when people are mad, others run away, but when they're sad, people come and help them.

HARDY 29:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:15 I wonder if that's maybe a little bit of something.

HARDY 29:17 I don't know. That's a weird-

Chris Williamson 29:19 That's a strange dynamic

HARDY 29:20 ... deep in the grooves of your brain, like, 'cause nobody, nobody is outwardly thinking like, "Maybe if I just act like I'm sad..." That's like some caveman brain thing that's been around a long time, but people do it for some reason. That's crazy.

Chris Williamson 29:32 Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think so. In other news, you've probably heard me talk about LMNT before, and that is because I'm frankly dependent on it. For the last forever in my life, I've started every single day the same way, which is with this in a cold glass of water. LMNT is electrolytes. It's got no BS in it. It's got everything that you need and nothing that you don't, at scientifically backed levels. Sodium, potassium, and magnesium at the perfect ratio, with no sugar or artificial ingredients or any other junk. Plays a critical role in reducing muscle cramps and fatigue. It optimizes your brain health, regulates your appetite, curbs your cravings, and this stuff in a cold glass of water is like a sweet-... salty, orangey nectar that I look forward to every single day, and I genuinely feel the difference when I take it versus when I don't, which is why I keep talking about it and why you need to try it. Best of all, there's a no-questions-asked refund policy with an unlimited duration, so you can buy it completely risk-free. Try it for as long as you want, and if you don't like it for any reason, they just give you your money back. Plus, they offer free shipping in the US. Right now, you can get a free sample pack of LMNT's most popular flavors with your first purchase and that money-back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom. That's drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom.

Chris Williamson 30:45 You said new album, a lot of mortality.

HARDY 30:47 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 30:48 What inspired that?

HARDY 30:49 I don't know. It's just that maybe a headspace I've been in of, uh, appreciating life a little bit more. Um, you know, we, we-- I was in a pretty bad bus accident a couple years ago, and it kind of opened my eyes to a lot of, uh, just how, how it can kinda go like that. And, uh, it's a miracle that any of us survived. We all survived. It's a miracle that any of us did, and, and, uh, I don't know. I feel like since then, just my mortality or the fragility of my mortality or my life, whatever that- however that's supposed to be worded, um-

Chris Williamson 31:26 Mm

HARDY 31:26 ... i- is, it just has been a little, a more apparent thing, uh, for me recently, and, and so I think that's why. I don't really know, but... And I've already, like, the songs I've written since that record, like, nothing, nobody's died. I haven't died. I'm not gonna die, you know, but I just, I had to get it out. I don't know what it was, but there's, you know, there's songs about, like, there's so- there's songs about appreciating it, and there's songs about, like, um... I mean, I don't know. I have to kinda go back and read the, the track list now, but there's, it kinda touches just on different, different ways to approach your, uh, your mortality. Um, and, uh, yeah, I just think it probably has to do a lot with the headspace that I've been in post-bus wreck. It's been three years, but, but I've kinda been writing this record for y- a year and a half or two years, so it was still pretty fresh at the time.

Chris Williamson 32:15 Would you mind telling the story about the bus?

HARDY 32:17 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, we were, we played a show in Bristol. It was a Sat- Saturday night in Bristol. Um, I was opening for Morgan, and then we decided to leave early so we could get to back to town because Bristol, Tennessee's only, like, four hours away. Um, and you gain an hour, so it doesn't feel like you get in quite as late, you know? Um, so we were 20 miles from town, maybe less. We were, like, 15 miles back from town, and my tour manager at the time was already sleeping in his bunk. And, um, my photographer and I were awake in the front lounge listening to something, listening to music, and, uh, my, our bus driver pulled over on the side of the road and got- he came and went to the bathroom, and he stayed in there, like, five minutes, which was really weird, especially being this close to town. But we didn't- you know, we were drinking. We, we didn't really think anything about it. We were just like: "It's kinda weird," and, um, came out of the bathroom, and I was like: "Ricky, you good?" And he ignored me, which I- we were like: "What is he..." But he had his Bluetooth thing in, so we always wondered if he was on the phone. So I st- I stepped up, and I was like: "Ricky, you good?" And he's like: "Yep, all good." I was like: "All right, man. Well, you know, he'll be there in a minute or whatever, I guess." And anyway, we started going back down the road, and then we just, just the bus just went off in this, like, bottom, and we f- we flipped, like, three times over.

Chris Williamson 33:41 And you're still in the front lounge?

HARDY 33:42 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 33:43 So you're not strapped in at all. You're dun-dun, dun-dun, dun-dun.

HARDY 33:45 Yeah. Somebody said like shoes in a, in a washing or shoes in a dryer. Uh, and, uh-

Chris Williamson 33:52 So what just... Because you must be sat and then feel the bus-

HARDY 33:55 We, we got- well, we felt the rumble strips, and then we felt us, like, going off the road. Like, you know, every now and then, your driver will hit, like, rumble strips, and you're- everybody's like, "Ooh."

Chris Williamson 34:03 Mm.

HARDY 34:03 But we felt the left side hit the rumble strips, and we knew we were going off the road, and, um, it just... I don't know what it was, but when it flipped, it got airborne for a second. I, I, I could just- there was a moment of, like, silence before the thing, and me and Tanner looked at each other and then just, we both just, like, boom! And it was, like, the hardest force I've ever felt in my life, just got thrown to the other side, and then we both were, like, instantly knocked out. So I don't remember anything else, but the way the bus was laying, it's like, if it's driving down the road like this, right? It flipped here, and then it flipped here, and then it flipped here, and that's where we, like, ended or whatever. But I woke up. I was the first one to wake up, which sucked. [chuckles] Uh, and I- my head was, like, wedged under this, the window, which had busted out, and, um, and I- it- there was, like, glass everywhere, and there was a piece of glass from the window, like, stuck in my head, and I just had to, like, pull my head out from under this thing. And, uh, I walked up. It was this- we went down a really steep hill, so I had to walk up. It wasn't, like, steep like that ceiling by any means, but it was probably a 15-foot, you know, like, hill or whatever. And, um, it was cold. It was, like, 35 degrees, [sniffs] and, uh, I was try- I could not flag down a car. It was, like, 4:00 in the mor- 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning, and so I could not get a car. I didn't have my phone. I'm blind without my glasses, so I couldn't see. I thought everybody in the bus was dead because no- everybody was- nobody was conscious. Um, so I was just helpless, like, I didn't know what to do. And so I went back to the bus to try to find my phone, but I couldn't fucking see, so, like... And I didn't ha- and I was wearing all black, so I couldn't find anything. I mean, the bus looked like, it looked like a bomb went off in there. It was just, it was just... Like, you can't even describe it. You'd have to Google it, but, um [lips smack] but yeah, uh, went back up to the highway. I'm, I'm in the road. I had a white circle on my hoodie, and I'm in the road, like, shaking it and then running to the side. Nobody would stop. Um, and then I heard my photographer, uh, wake up, and he was screaming, "Bloody murder," all this thing, and, and, um, and then my tour manager, somehow, he was blocked in the back. The, the door was shut to the... You know how- have you been on a tour bus? Like, yeah, the, the doors, you know, and all that. So that door was shut. Somehow he got it open.... and, uh, I mean, [chuckles] he's all banged up, and he's, like, looking at me like you're looking at me right now. And I was like, "I know!" And I was like, "We have to have a phone now." And it was a miracle. His phone somehow, in all of that craziness, had gotten from his bunk to the front lounge, like slid somewhere, and, and it was at the bottom of a pile of, like, rubble ins- inside the bus. And when- the, the second I said, "We have to get a phone right now," um, his alarm to wake up, 'cause we would have gotten back to town, went off. And so I literally reached down and to... just moved all the, the whatever the hell w- it was, got his phone, called 911. We were thankfully one exit away from, uh, like a hospital exit. It was like an exit built for, like, a big hospital complex. Ambulance was there in, like, five minutes. And, uh, yeah, so all that being said, uh, rest in peace, Ricky. Ricky, we ha- we wrecked because he had a brain tumor he didn't know about, and so he had either an aneurysm or a s- a stroke or a seizure. It was probably a seizure. Because he, he- they sent him to Vanderbilt because they were asking him questions, and he didn't know what day it was or where he was, and they were like, "Okay, he's had trauma. We need to get him somewhere." And they didn't find it for, like, a week, but come to find out, he had a brain tumor. It ended up killing him about a, a year later. Um, Tanner, uh, broke, [chuckles] like, every... My photographer broke, like, every bone in his body. And I just laugh. We can laugh about it now 'cause it was just crazy, but I remembered seeing his, uh, his bone. He had a, a compound fracture that broke the skin, so he had a bone sticking out of the top of his foot. [chuckles] And he kept, he kept telling the, uh... We're like- we're- and now we're in the bus, and coming- we're helping. And I'm just, you know, uh... The ambulance is there, and he kept pulling on his bone, and he was like, "There's a stick in my foot!" [laughing] And we're like, "Stop pulling on it. It's a bone." But, um, yeah, Tanner broke his neck, his ribs, his back, his foot. He was... I mean, he was so mangled. He's a smaller guy, and, and, um, I, uh, Noah, the guy in the bunk, he actually turned out the best 'cause he, he didn't h- he was just-

Chris Williamson 38:18 Banged up, banged up, banged up, banged up, banged up.

HARDY 38:18 Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. He was pretty banged up, but no serious injuries. And, um, I just had a concussion and, like, a few staples in my head, and I fractured my back, but it wasn't even, like... Not very serious, you know what I mean? I, like, I hurt for a, a couple months. It's a compression fracture, so I guess when we hit, I think my spine just did like an accordion and right in the middle-

Chris Williamson 38:38 Do you feel a little bit shorter than you did before the-

HARDY 38:40 Oh, well, I, I physically was, like, a half an inch shorter.

Chris Williamson 38:43 [laughing]

HARDY 38:43 But I- but they missed it in the hospital, and I- like, a week later, Kat, my wife, and I are on a walk, and, um, I was like, "Man, I feel this, like, jolt of just, like, pain that goes through my body."

Chris Williamson 38:53 Mm.

HARDY 38:54 And I got- went and got a X-ray, and it was, like, a bunch of square vertebras, and then one just looked like that right in the middle, and they call that a compression fa- fracture. And they said it, you know... I haven't gotten it looked at again, but said it takes six to eight months to... There's nothing you can do. You just, it kinda gets back to normal, and-

Chris Williamson 39:08 Just go steady.

HARDY 39:09 But all that being said, um, yeah, it was a very, very, uh, just unpredictable... You know, when you think about it, like, we weren't- we didn't deal with a drunk driver, we didn't hit a deer or just... You know what I mean? We didn't... There wasn't icy, there was no snow, no bad weather.

Chris Williamson 39:28 It wasn't because-

HARDY 39:28 Our driver just had a-

Chris Williamson 39:29 ... he was being negligent?

HARDY 39:30 No, he just, he had a brain episode, and, and it just happened to be then, you know? I mean, it-

Chris Williamson 39:36 Do you think-

HARDY 39:36 ... such a freak thing.

Chris Williamson 39:37 Do you think that his trips to the bathroom, uh-

HARDY 39:41 Yes, so-

Chris Williamson 39:42 ... before were early, "Ooh, there's something going on. I don't feel too right?"

HARDY 39:45 Yeah, sorry, I forgot I spoke to that. That's exactly what was happening. So he was entering into, I think it was an aneurysm. Um, but he had- whatever had happened, had happened, and it was slowly-

Chris Williamson 39:56 Mm

HARDY 39:56 ... getting worse and worse or whatever. Um, and it's so funny, I've heard... My dad had a good friend, uh, that he used to work... Uh, my dad was a high school referee, foot- football referee, and, and, uh, his, one of his best friends had an aneurysm as a referee on the field, and it was just very similar. 'Cause he said, his name was Lewis, and he said Lewis, they looked over, and he was laid out, and they just thought he got knocked over by a player. And he got up, and he was like: "No, I'm fine," but every, like, minute that went by, he was acting crazier and weirder, and, and then, sure enough, he, you know, he almost died. But it was a miracle, man. Uh, y- you should google- if you google just, like, my name and the, and the bus accident, the pictures will come up. There's one of the inside of the bus. Look it up. That's pretty, pretty gnarly. [chuckles]

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Chris Williamson 41:55 I'm interested... Uh, first off, I'm really, really glad that you guys are all still here, and it feels-

HARDY 42:01 Thank you, man

Chris Williamson 42:02 ... a lot like a miracle. Secondly, I've been on a good few tour buses, uh, single-deckers to double-deckers, especially around Europe.

HARDY 42:10 S- that's scary, dude.

Chris Williamson 42:11 That would've been different.

HARDY 42:11 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:12 Um, but every single time, especially on a double-decker, when you're at the front lounge on the top, it's you and a piece of glass, and then just-

HARDY 42:20 You're just doing this

Chris Williamson 42:20 ... the road right in front of you.

HARDY 42:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:23 ... every single time that I've been on a bus like that, that's been moving, there is a bit of me that goes, like, in cars, you're supposed to have your seatbelt on at all times.

HARDY 42:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:34 You need to spend a lot of time touring, which means you're gonna have to be back in a bus a good bit, and you would've had to have got back on a bus.

HARDY 42:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:41 What was the first time that you got back on a tour bus for a long night journey, like, after that experience, and, and sort of how are you now with that?

HARDY 42:49 Um, this is a, th- this was a, this was a journey. This was, like, a very long... So I forgot to mention, but this was three weeks before my wedding. My wife was on her bachelorette party the last night. They had-- again, it was 3:00 in the morning. She- they're in New Orleans. They're all hammered, having a great time. I FaceTime her, and I'm just, like, bleeding, just bleeding out of my nose and my head, and I just look like, you know, I look like I've been in a car accident. And I'm freaking out 'cause I've, I've hit my head really hard, and I'm actually pretty with it, but I just, I, h- like, a brain injury has always freaked me out, and I know how that works, is sometimes you can hit your head, and then you don't know it till, like, hours later if you don't go get it checked out, and da, da, da, da. And, uh, anyway, so I was like: "Hey, I, like, I, we've been in a bus wreck. Like, I love you. I don't know what's gonna happen. We're going to the hospital right now." And so she's freaking out. So all that because... And that's my, my number one thought was, like, "I have to get married."

Chris Williamson 43:39 Mm.

HARDY 43:39 Like, I literally, I have my wedding. Like, do not fucking... You know, like: "You're gonna be fine-"

Chris Williamson 43:44 Don't die before the wedding.

HARDY 43:45 "Yeah."

Chris Williamson 43:45 Don't die before the-

HARDY 43:45 Don't die before the wedding. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So all that being said, we got married. We went to, uh, w- we- the week, like, a week or two after that was CMA Week, which was very busy, and it was a time where... Which is this, this week is also CMA Week. Uh, I was, I think, pretty sure I was, like, nominated for a lot. It was a very busy, like, su- but a good, like, successful week, but I was like, a lot going on that week.

Chris Williamson 44:09 With a-

HARDY 44:10 Um

Chris Williamson 44:10 ... bandage wrapped around your head.

HARDY 44:11 Yeah, I, I had won, I won BMI Songwriter of the Year that year. Um, just a lot of... And then immediately after, the, like, the night of the CMAs, Callie and I, my wife and I, flew to LA to go to Thailand for our honeymoon. So after the wreck, I never had, like, a ti- um, time to, like, process it. It was just like I got better, and when I could f- kind of walk and, you know, had my head was kind of in good shape, like, it was, like, getting ready for the wedding. It was, like, immediately. So, um, that December, I played a few shows that were not very long runs, and we took the bus, but I wouldn't go overnight. I would do it, um, in the morning. Like, we would leave early in the morning and make, like, that six or seven-hour trip-

Chris Williamson 44:50 And that was a-

HARDY 44:50 ... just 'cause it's daylight. You can-- you know, you're talking to the bus driver.

Chris Williamson 44:53 And that was to make you feel more comfortable?

HARDY 44:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:55 To avoid the travel anxiety?

HARDY 44:56 Right, and it was a different, obviously a different driver. The one- he's the guy I still have now, and he's great. But there's just something about, you know, having the door open to the front and seeing him in there and just knowing we're in good hands and all that, and he's driving, like, 40 miles an hour on the interstate to make sure we're comfortable. But, um, it, it was really bad. Uh, I, I still just had any sort of bumps or anything, it was, it was really tough. But a year later, uh, to the day, uh, of the bus accident, out of nowhere, I had a full-blown panic attack on a, on the golf course, thinking I was having a heart attack, and I've never had one before. I've had very mild anxiety, mostly hangover induced, you know what I mean? Like, just some- it was somewhere I didn't wanna be, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I've never really had, like, true crippling anxiety that, like, is real anxiety. And, um, and then the next night I had an- I had, like, two back to back, and I was like: "I don't know what is going on." And, um, went to, went to this intensive therapy thing, and we kind of dug up the bus, and I did a lot of what they call EMDR therapy. Yep. And, um, man, it... Since then, I did that and this other thing at a different facility where they, they, like, run these, like, electrical, like, things through your brain and sort of help sort of center back your thought process or whatever. And between those two things, I haven't even thought about... I, I think about it, but it's such a distant, not scary memory now. Um, I've, I really truly have rewired that, logically processed how random and crazy and improbable the, uh, you know, it is to happen again and all that. So long story, but that's, that's, that's... It, it took a year. Uh, and, and then kind of my brain, it sort of, you know, it all kind of came back 'cause I never really processed it.

Chris Williamson 46:44 Mm.

HARDY 46:45 And but when the-

Chris Williamson 46:45 You'd gotten straight back into your life

HARDY 46:46 ... weather got cold, and the leaves kind of started changing and... You know what I mean? I kind of started associating with, with that time of year again. It just, it came out of me. It was crazy. Yeah. [chuckles] But we're here, man.

Chris Williamson 46:57 Oh, my God.

HARDY 46:58 And I got, I still got a staple that my head swallowed somewhere that, but the doctor-

Chris Williamson 47:01 [chuckles]

HARDY 47:02 ... the doctor was like: "It's in there, but you'll be all right. It'll be fine."

Chris Williamson 47:04 You're setting off the metal detectors every time you fly.

HARDY 47:06 [chuckles] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:07 Beep, beep, beep, beep.

HARDY 47:07 Yeah, every time I get a MRI, I'm like: "I'm gonna just leave that. Maybe it'll float out." [chuckles] Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:11 Yeah. Uh, holy shit, man. I mean, I was in... The only equivalent I have, uh, when I was 20, I got hit head-on by a snowplow at 60 miles an hour.

HARDY 47:19 On w- in a car?

Chris Williamson 47:20 Yeah.

HARDY 47:20 Oh, my God!

Chris Williamson 47:20 I was driving. So the snowplow sort of, uh, v- listed across into our lane and just clipped us, like, that far into the car. But when it's a snowplow, all fucking- both airbags deployed, windscreen shattered. It, like, came down my side, so the door was up against the sort of side of my shoulder. But the car stayed on the road, so we just pulled over. But that moment where you said, "I looked at my other, uh, buddy," while it was, like, during it happening, uh, was exactly the same thing. I looked at my business partner for, like, a split second, which I can still see, like, what that looks like and feels like now. Um, but the travel anxiety thing, um, i- in a much, much, much less bad crash than yours, with... You know, I walked away from it. Um, for three, four months afterward, if I was ever in a-

HARDY 48:08 Mm, mm-hmm

Chris Williamson 48:08 ... contraflow without a central reservation, 'cause the side that you drive on-

HARDY 48:12 Oh, and you're on the left side?

Chris Williamson 48:14 Correct.

HARDY 48:14 Yeah, okay, that makes sense. Okay.

Chris Williamson 48:15 Uh-

HARDY 48:15 I was trying to figure out how I was like-

Chris Williamson 48:16 Yeah, sorry about that.

HARDY 48:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:17 Uh, it is the right side of the road, though. Um, [chuckles] the- you're- you are next to cars coming toward you, and that's how- that's the reason that you drive on that side, so that you know how far you are from other cars, so that it's not on the offside-

HARDY 48:29 Mm

Chris Williamson 48:29 ... so that you don't accidentally clip someone.

HARDY 48:30 That makes sense.

Chris Williamson 48:31 But-... Oh, and it's the same here, right? It, you're just other side of the road.

HARDY 48:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:34 Like, you're still on the inside network-

HARDY 48:36 Right. Right, right, right

Chris Williamson 48:36 ... up against the traffic that's going that way.

HARDY 48:38 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:38 But what that means is you've got f- you know, vehicles that are sometimes only four feet away from you that are going in, and that's just how people drive. That's how the, the roads work.

HARDY 48:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 48:47 But that made me feel, uh, that made me feel very, very anxious. And given the fact that that was me from an incident way less, I, yeah, it, it must be... The fact that you've done the EMDR and whatever that, um, like-

HARDY 49:01 Electro something

Chris Williamson 49:02 ... electrodes.

HARDY 49:02 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 49:02 I know exactly what you're talking about.

HARDY 49:04 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 49:04 They do it at Ways to Well in Austin. Um, that's a real credit to the effectiveness of those sorts of treatments-

HARDY 49:12 Totally

Chris Williamson 49:13 ... for overcoming that, because that's now liberated you to be able to go back and do your thing.

HARDY 49:17 Yes, totally. Um-

Chris Williamson 49:18 Now, how much worse would your quality of life be if you hadn't gone through? You'd still be random panic attacks, fucking oh, oh, here comes October, November again, like, ready for the f- golf course panic attack to happen.

HARDY 49:28 [chuckles] Yeah. Dude, and, and the thing is, is like, it, I, there were so many thoughts 'cause, like, that happened, and then that panic kind of for some reason had... It was like, it all just sort of came back, and I was like, "I'm not gonna be able to tour anymore."

Chris Williamson 49:43 Mm-hmm.

HARDY 49:43 Like, what am I gonna do? My, I don't even know who I am as a pr- like, my brain is in a completely horrible place, and, like, tour- I rely on touring and, like, you know, like, uh, I mean, it was just, it was a mess for a second, but I got it fixed really quick, so.

Chris Williamson 49:54 Mm.

Chris Williamson 49:56 Do you think vulnerability and talking about emotions is becoming more acceptable in-

HARDY 50:03 Yes

Chris Williamson 50:04 ... male artists now?

HARDY 50:05 I think so, and I hope that it gets better. Um, you know, I, I, I don't think that anybody that, that talks about that, uh, is considered soft by any means. And, uh, I know a lot of... I've talked to a lot of artists, very successful artists that deal with their- they're just like: "Man, my anxiety has been so bad recently," and I just, I wish the more public you can make it and the more, like, people that can openly share that they deal with stuff-

Chris Williamson 50:33 Mm

HARDY 50:33 ... then, like, the next time you're going through something, you know, if you're in an award show or something, you can just go find your buddy and be like: "Hey, I'm freaking out." You know what I mean? Like, that just, the more acceptable it is, I feel like a lot of, a, a big part of depression and anxiety, um, that makes it worse or, or, um, yeah, that makes it worse, is the shame that comes with it because it's, you're not- it's not supposed to be okay or, or you're considered weak or whatever, or an inconvenience or whatever that may be. And I just think the more open, uh, especially men, uh, are about their mental health, uh, the less... the more, uh, that, the shame and the guilt and the, the burden and all that will just sort of go away. Especially with artists, I mean, we're not, we're not- human beings were not designed to be famous. Uh, we weren't designed to, uh, just to travel and to, especially artists, we weren't designed to, like, experience insane levels of serotonin and adrenaline three nights in a row, four or five nights in a row sometimes. Uh, there's, there's a lot that, that's, that, you know, uh, people are gonna roll their eyes and know and just be like: "Well, grass must be nice," blah, blah, blah. But, man, it's just, it's a mental thing that you go through that, like, it, you know, [clears throat] it's just, it's different. It's just... I don't think that our brains are wired to experience some of the stuff that, that, that singers or, or anybody, anybody that's a public figure experiences, and, and, uh, it can take a toll on you, man, m- m- male, female-

Chris Williamson 52:02 Mm

HARDY 52:02 ... whatever age, whatever.

Chris Williamson 52:04 Mm. This episode is brought to you by Momentous. If your sleep's been off, taking ages to fall asleep, waking up at random times, feeling groggy in the morning, Momentous's sleep hacks are here to help. They are not your typical knock-you-out supplement overloaded with melatonin, just the most evidence-based ingredients at perfect doses to help you fall asleep more quickly, stay asleep throughout the night, and wake up feeling more rested and revitalized in the morning. That is why I take these things every single night and why I trust Momentous with my life, or at least with my sleep, because they make the highest quality supplements on the planet. What you read on the label is what's in the product and absolutely nothing else. And if you're still unsure, they've got a thirty-day money-back guarantee, so you can buy it completely risk-free. Use it, and if you don't like it for any reason, they'll give you your money back. That's how confident they are that you'll love it. Right now, you can get thirty-five percent off, and they ship internationally by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemomentous.com/modernwisdom, using the code MODERNWISDOM at checkout. That's L-I-V-E-M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S.com/modernwisdom and MODERNWISDOM at checkout. [chuckles] I've heard you say country boys feel everything, they just don't talk about it.

HARDY 53:10 Yeah, it's- that's true. Just bury it deep on down. That's like the, that's the philosophy. My grandfather used to say, uh, talking about my grandmother, you know, she'd have a bad day, and he would just say, "Oh, she's got that damn depression again." [laughing] Like it was a-

Chris Williamson 53:26 [laughing]

HARDY 53:26 ... like it was a flare-up, you know, like it was a rash or something.

Chris Williamson 53:29 Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

HARDY 53:30 Um-

Chris Williamson 53:30 Yeah, the pollen count is high today.

HARDY 53:32 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 53:32 The depression count is high today.

HARDY 53:33 She's got that damn depression again.

Chris Williamson 53:35 Fuck.

HARDY 53:36 Well, yeah, I think so. I think especially in the country, people just didn't have time. They didn't have the, uh [clears throat] I don't know. It was like, it was like, you just, you... Yeah, kind of like, there's no time to worry about that. We've gotta, we've gotta figure out how to make a living and whatever, whatever that may be. I think-

Chris Williamson 53:52 That's an interesting point, um, and I guess ties into what you said about the bus story, that if you're super busy, if you've got lots to do, if there's, uh, uh, tasks to be completed, can pretty easily sort of suppress and hide away little whispers-

HARDY 54:11 Yeah, distraction

Chris Williamson 54:11 ... fleeting thoughts. "Well, I mean, yeah, sure, maybe I get a little anxious on the bus, but I've got the show to play tonight," and it sort of the, uh, underlying emotion is swept away by a much bigger emotion-

HARDY 54:23 Sure

Chris Williamson 54:24 ... which is the dopamine, the serotonin, the adrenaline, all that stuff. Um, but I do think certainly in the music industry, on that ascendancy thing, people can hide-... the emotions that they should be paying a lot of attention to with the energy and the adderall. I mean, I'm on tour at the moment. I played The Cannery in Nashville this week-

HARDY 54:46 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 54:46 - and I was, I was in, I did Boston, Chicago, Nashville, back to back to back. So three shows, three states, three days this week. And, um, some- something that happens at the first show, by the third show, you can't even remember that it's happened.

HARDY 55:00 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 55:00 You're like, where the f... I, I accidentally called-

HARDY 55:03 Oh, no!

Chris Williamson 55:04 I accidentally called, uh, Nashville, uh, sorry, I called Chicago, LA, way deep into the show and said it was a Monday, and then said it was a Saturday, and it wasn't, it was a Friday. [laughing] And I'm like-

HARDY 55:15 Dude, it happens, man. It kills your memory. And, and, a- and one thing I don't like, uh, that I, I wish I was better at, but also it just, it's so hard, is, uh, you can have a cool moment or experience or have a cool conversation with a fan, you know, at a place, and then the next time you see them, it's... They're devastated that you don't remember.

Chris Williamson 55:34 You know what, uh-

HARDY 55:34 And it's like: "I'm so sorry." And they're like: "No, we talked about, like, my dead mom," or so- you know what I mean? Something really sad, and, like, you don't remember. And it's just, it's, it's hard to remember when you're just gone and all the time.

Chris Williamson 55:44 I have a friend, I have a friend whose hack for that is whenever he meets anybody... This is a bit of a cheap trick, but whenever he meets anybody, he says, "Have we met before?" And if you haven't, they go, "No, but..." And he's like: "I swear. I must have got you mixed up."

HARDY 55:58 That's, that's really good.

Chris Williamson 55:59 But for him to do it the other way, 'cause he, for, as... I guess if you're deeper into your touring career and you're like, you know, maybe 50% or 25% of the people you have met, they're like-

HARDY 56:08 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:08 "Oh, my God!"

HARDY 56:09 Yeah, and they go back home, and they're like, "Oh, yeah, I totally remember this."

Chris Williamson 56:11 Yeah.

HARDY 56:12 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:12 No, it is a cheap trick.

HARDY 56:13 But if, you know, like, if I did that, and then somebody was like, "Yeah, we talked about so-and-so," then I would remember.

Chris Williamson 56:17 Yes.

HARDY 56:17 But it's just that, like, the face and the... Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:20 I had a... So James, my business partner in Neutonic, this, this thing, uh, we both played the Apollo in London, three-and-a-half thousand people. We both sold it out separately. Get that in you, Travis. That'll fuel the rest of the day. Um-

HARDY 56:30 Sweet.

Chris Williamson 56:31 Uh, he, uh, he played the same show as me, separate, a couple of years before, and we were messaging about it the other day, and we were talking about this, like, what's happening on tour. And he was like: "Dude, I played the biggest show of my life, sold out three-and-a-half thousand people in my home country." He's like: "I couldn't tell you anything about what happened."

HARDY 56:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:47 "Like, I can't tell you anything. I can kind of remember walking out, and I've got all the photos, but I remember my show through the lens of the photographer and the videographer now."

HARDY 56:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:57 It's like, "I don't remember it from my own eyes." And it's this, this really interesting paradox that I've never thought about before until starting to do this. When you're in a flow state, which is what everybody's supposed to want to get into, you're really unconscious, right? Like, stuff's just happening. You know your set, you've dialed it in, you're halfway through the tour, like, everything's locked.

HARDY 57:16 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:17 You, you... And you forget what you're doing, and it's really enjoyable, but in this weird way, you're not there.

HARDY 57:23 You're not, you're not recording it.

Chris Williamson 57:24 You weren't there.

HARDY 57:24 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:25 You weren't there for it.

HARDY 57:26 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:27 Like, it just happened.

HARDY 57:28 Have you seen that movie Soul-

Chris Williamson 57:30 No

HARDY 57:30 ... by chance?

Chris Williamson 57:30 Is that, that's the Disney one?

HARDY 57:32 That's the... Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:32 Yeah.

HARDY 57:32 And he's a piano player, and he dies, and he goes to, like, this purgatory thing.

Chris Williamson 57:36 Bits of it, yeah.

HARDY 57:36 There's one, there's a, there's one little section of this, like, in-between heaven kind of thing that they go to, and it's all these people doing, like, weird tasks, and he's like, "What is that?" And he- they're all like, "They're in the zone." So it's like they're, you know, that's, it's like their soul is like... And the place is called The Zone, and it's like a, one guy's just a sign spinner on the street, you know, but one guy could be a guitar player or whatever it is, but it's, it's the flow state. It's like their body is on Earth, but, like, their soul, you know, they're-

Chris Williamson 58:04 Hmm, mm

HARDY 58:04 ... they're in that different, different world, like a different place.

Chris Williamson 58:07 Isn't that strange, though, that the thing that you want to do most and the place that you want to get to as a performer is the point where you make the fewest memories?

HARDY 58:18 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:18 Like, you're not there for it. [laughing] Yeah.

HARDY 58:21 Dude-

Chris Williamson 58:21 It's just as well.

HARDY 58:21 It's a complete paradox, dude.

Chris Williamson 58:23 It's just as well that we've got-

HARDY 58:24 The moments you want to remember the most are the, are like, are those, but it's the, it, but the, the, the mindset you wanna be in is the same as, as that.

Chris Williamson 58:31 Yeah.

HARDY 58:32 It's insane.

Chris Williamson 58:32 Yeah, yeah. The best moments of your career are the ones that you remember the least.

HARDY 58:36 Yeah. [laughing]

Chris Williamson 58:37 Isn't that wild?

HARDY 58:38 Yeah, it sucks, dude. It's crazy.

Chris Williamson 58:40 Well, I mean-

HARDY 58:41 Thank God for, thank God for photos and videos

Chris Williamson 58:41 ... fortunately, you l- I was gonna say, you live with, like, a million cameras around you, which-

HARDY 58:44 Yeah

Chris Williamson 58:45 ... uh, which helps. But yeah, there's a bit of a, there's a bit of a, a melancholy. I, even I've had that, right? Uh, looking back, and I go, "Was I there?" W- and then there's a bit of guilt. I'm like, "Should I... I should have been more present."

HARDY 58:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:58 "Maybe I should have been more present." You go, "Well, what's your job? Is your job to be there and to be present, or is your job to put on a good show for the-

HARDY 59:03 Do your job

Chris Williamson 59:03 ... fucking three-and-a-half thousand people that have paid to come and see you?"

HARDY 59:05 Right.

Chris Williamson 59:06 Um, yeah, and do your job. Be a professional.

HARDY 59:09 Yep.

Chris Williamson 59:10 [exhaling] It's a strange one, dude.

HARDY 59:11 It's a battle. It's a battle, man. I just... Yeah, I feel like the... I don't know. [clears throat] I approach a lot of, especially my singing career, because of how it came together, like, very randomly, that I just- I don't put enough, a lot of pressure on myself, um, to, uh... I don't know. I just approach it very lightly, and I'm just like, "Dude, I'm so lucky to be here," that just... I don't know. I just approach everything that comes with that just lightly, and everything is, you- you should be very proud and all that, but I just try to think, you know, this is, none of this is a big deal. And, but not, and I just mean, like, um, [mouth clicks] you know... I don't know. I, I've always just thought, like, "Man, these people you're playing for are just people," and-

Chris Williamson 59:55 Mm

HARDY 59:56 ... you were just a dude, and you still are, but, like, you got lucky with your, your record deal and your artist career and never really planned on doing that. So why not just enjoy it and, and try not to beat yourself up? But there's definitely times where I, you know, like, I'll do something and then be like: Did I soak in enough of that? Like, there's a... It's funny, there's a festival in Michigan, um, Brian O'Connell, I hope you watch this because you're- you need to hear this. It was called Faster Horses, a Live Nation festival, and it was by far... I've played it twice, and it was the greatest crowd I've ever played for, and they canceled it. And the last time I played it, I remembered it, and it was great, but I just always assumed that we would be back.

Chris Williamson 1:00:35 Oh.

HARDY 1:00:35 And it was like, I'm, I'm talking, like, nothing will ever, ever, ever, ever, ever beat it unless we went back there. Like, it just will not happen.... and then they canceled it, probably forever, and it just, like, that sucks. And it's like, though that's a moment where I beat myself up, 'cause I was like, "Man, we just got offstage and just had a few beers and went to bed." Like-

Chris Williamson 1:00:53 Got it.

HARDY 1:00:54 You know, like, we should have celebrated that more or en- enjoyed that moment a lot more, done something, because had, had we known it was gonna be canceled, you know, we would've really soaked that moment in.

Chris Williamson 1:01:04 Dude, that's life.

HARDY 1:01:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:05 That's life.

HARDY 1:01:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:06 Right?

HARDY 1:01:07 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:01:07 Uh, you don't know the last time that you're gonna bounce your daughter on your knee.

HARDY 1:01:11 Oh, don't even... You can't even- I, yeah, dude, I can't even think about it. [chuckles]

Chris Williamson 1:01:14 You don't know the last time that you're gonna hug your grandmother.

HARDY 1:01:16 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:01:16 You don't know the last time that you're gonna get to play a live show. You don't know the last time that you're gonna get to be with that bus driver, and, uh, the assumption that we always have more is why we don't realize that stuff is slipping away from us during the time. Um, but on the flip side, I think being gentle with yourself of, you don't know what the future holds.

HARDY 1:01:33 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:01:33 You don't know what's gonna happen next, and-

HARDY 1:01:34 Everybody experiences that the exact same, I think, too, right?

Chris Williamson 1:01:37 Yeah, yeah.

HARDY 1:01:38 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:38 I should have been more present. I should have remembered it more. I should have treated it with more divinity or sacredness or care and attention.

HARDY 1:01:44 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:01:45 And, uh, it's only in retrospect, I should ha- as soon as you say, "I should," it's like, yeah, but you didn't, and you didn't know.

HARDY 1:01:51 And there's nothing you can do about it.

Chris Williamson 1:01:52 And if you could have done, you'd have gone and said to the bus driver, "Let's just put..." Whatever.

HARDY 1:01:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:55 Like, the I should, I should, I should.

HARDY 1:01:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:57 Ladies and gentlemen, HARDY.

HARDY 1:01:58 Dude.

Chris Williamson 1:01:58 I appreciate the fuck out of you, man.

HARDY 1:01:59 Thank you so much, man.

Chris Williamson 1:02:00 This has been-

HARDY 1:02:00 It was a great, uh, it was a great conversation, dude.

Chris Williamson 1:02:01 This is real. Uh, what's next? Where... Are you on tour? What's coming up?

HARDY 1:02:05 Yeah, count, uh, Country Country Tour starts in Canada in February. [chuckles] Apparently, that's the time to go, 'cause they're bored to death up there.

Chris Williamson 1:02:12 [laughing]

HARDY 1:02:13 Country Country Tour, Canada in February. Um, I've got the HARDY Fund. Uh, best way to do it is just Google the HARDY Fund, um, and, uh, you can donate to that. It's my, my wife and I's charity that we're really excited about. Just, um, yeah, Country Country and Country Country Country, the album and the deluxe album, and, uh, that's it.

Chris Williamson 1:02:32 Fuck yeah.

HARDY 1:02:33 Yeah, got some other stuff that I can't talk about yet, but excited, super excited about, but, uh, yeah, I'm excited.

Chris Williamson 1:02:38 Appreciate you, man.

HARDY 1:02:38 Thank you so much. [upbeat music]

Chris Williamson 1:02:40 Thank you very much for tuning in, and congratulations for not being so TikTok-brained that you actually made it to the end of an episode. If you enjoyed that chat with HARDY, uh, Jon Bellion, one of the biggest producers in the world, waiting for you just here. Go on, press it.