The Psychology Of Narcissism - Professor W Keith Campbell | Modern Wisdom Podcast 278

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   So for narcissism, what…

   1. WCW. Keith Campbell0:00

      So for narcissism, what you get is a big dollop of antagonism, kind of mean and self-centered, and then you add that extroversion piece to it. So you take, you know, low agreeableness and extroversion, that's a recipe for grandiose narcissism. Take that same low agreeableness or meanness or callousness, add neuroticism, anxiety, depression, and you end up with vulnerable narcissism. (wind blowing)

   2. CWChris Williamson0:24

      We're talking about narcissism today, a word that gets thrown around quite a lot. Like, what is the correct definition of it and, and how does it manifest?

   3. WCW. Keith Campbell0:32

      (inhales deeply) Well, you're right, the term's used a lot. Um, the, the most basic sort of foundational definition is somebody who has a very positive view of him or herself, um, a lack of empathy, and a need for admiration. So that's the, like, in a nutshell, when you talk about narcissism, you're usually talking about a positive self-view, you think you're better than other people. You have some challenges with forming close, caring, empathetic relationships with people, and you need people around to kind of boost you up, to bolster you, to admire you, to give you positive attention, et cetera. So that's kind of the general term. Um, when people are using it in the street, they're often using it in a bit of a pejorative way to describe an ex-boyfriend or an ex-boss or whatever. So it's, you know, so people don't really use it technically right. But then when you get into the psychology and the science part, there's really, you can break it down farther into really three different definitions of narcissism. Um, the one we're probably most familiar with is the personality trait. And when I say trait, I mean that this is something we all vary on. There's a continuum. Some are more narcissistic, some less. Most people around the middle. There's a trait called grandiose narcissism, which is this, um, sort of sense of self-important and a sense of entitlement. But with grandiose narcissism, what you see is some energy and maybe charisma, sometimes charm and drive and ambition. So the, the more grandiose narcissist folks you meet are the ones that end up in, you know, in politics or in leadership because they have this drive and ambition, and they're often very likable people when you first meet them. And you don't see that the darker, more tar- toxic side of narcissism until later on. There's another form of narcissism which is less familiar to most of us, but it's when you see more with counselors and clinicians and, you know, in the mental health world, is what we call vulnerable narcissism. So these are people that have the same sense of entitlement, but rather than being more ambitious and energized, they're a little more nervous, have low self-esteem, a little more introverted, sometimes called covert narcissists or basement narcissists or in-the-closet narcissists, because you have, uh, and so you have a fantasy about being successful, but there's not really energy or drive to make that real. So, so, and so, you, you can imagine if you think you're great and you're not out there engaging with the world, you, you have a tendency for depression and anxiety and loneliness because you're not getting what you need. So the more vulnerable folks end up in the clinical settings more. And then to make it even more confusing, there's a clinical or psychiatric disorder known as narcissistic personality disorder, NPD. And this is an extreme form of narcissism that's grandiose and a little vulnerable. And what happens is your narcissism gets so extreme, it impairs you in life. It either destroys your relationships because you can't have loving relationships with people, or it ruins your work because you take too many risks or you're a terrible boss, so you can't listen to people or whatever. And then it becomes a, a disorder. But that's relatively rare. Where the confusion comes in is people say, "You're a narcissist," and you're like, "What do you mean? Do you mean I'm kind of a cool dude who's got a lot of girlfriends, or do you mean I'm kind of a loser at my mom's home on the internet trolling people trying to get attention? Or do you mean I have some, I'm somebody with a clinical disorder who should see a psychiatrist and be treated?" And so we, that, that's where a lot of confusion comes in is the different, the different definitions that are associated with narcissism.

   4. CWChris Williamson4:11

      It's interesting that you can have one trait, one sort of source code that is underwriting the way that someone is created, and yet when that tree starts to grow up, it can lean to one of a number of different ways and create a variety of shapes.

   5. WCW. Keith Campbell4:27

      That is a very interesting way to, to put it, and I think, um, part of it is that that ego, that's if you think about the source code of like ego, I want attention, I'm better than people. If you, if you pair that with somebody who's got some social skills and whose parents said, "You're awesome, Keith. You're great," and who has some confidence, that person can become a successful sort of grandiose narcissist. But that same characteristics, but the person was maybe abused or traumatized, the parents, you know, not to take incredible trauma, but parents that were more cold and dismissive who didn't have the social skills ends up on this more, um, vulnerable path. So you could see that idea how you could bend these different forms in different ways, but they're both very ego-based.

   6. CWChris Williamson5:12

      I read, uh, Robert Plomin's Blueprint last year, talking about the influence of genetics on everything that we do with regards to behavior.

   7. WCW. Keith Campbell5:21

      Yeah. (laughs)

   8. CWChris Williamson5:21

      And I think that your findings with narcissism match up with what he said. It's around about 50% is nature and 50%-

   9. WCW. Keith Campbell5:29

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson5:29

       ... is nurture.

   11. WCW. Keith Campbell5:31

       Yeah, that's, um, uh, Plomin, it's funny. I remember studying hi- him in graduate school. Um-

   12. CWChris Williamson5:37

       Have you read Blueprint?

   13. WCW. Keith Campbell5:38

       What-

   14. CWChris Williamson5:38

       Have you read his new one?

   15. WCW. Keith Campbell5:40

       I haven't, no. I-

   16. CWChris Williamson5:41

       Oh, well, Keith, you would...

   17. WCW. Keith Campbell5:42

       It's really good.

   18. CWChris Williamson5:43

       Uh, yeah. I mean, being honest, there is a couple of takeaways that you'll already have. And they are, every trait has significant and, um, sizable influence from our genetics. Like, that's the, the big red pill. But as you go into stuff like, um, in adoption studies, weight-... is completely correlated between biological parents and not at all through the adopted parents. Like, which is crazy, especially when we live-

   19. WCW. Keith Campbell6:10

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson6:10

       ... in a world that's a meritocracy. Um, but yeah, so talking about, uh-

   21. WCW. Keith Campbell6:14

       Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson6:14

       ... genetic, about the genetic influence on narcissism.

   23. WCW. Keith Campbell6:18

       Yeah. So, you find that pattern with narcissism that you, y- and so generally, you're getting about 50%, like you're saying, about 50% is, is inherited. It might be, uh, narcissism in terms of traits seems to be a little bit on the higher side, but it, you know, they're all about 50%. When you look at that other piece, about 10 to 20% is parenting, maybe 10%. So the parenting piece is never as important as people think. You know, the people think parenting is really shaping you. Parenting matters a lot. Your parents have to feed you and love you and do all these things, but they can't really shape you that well to be one kind of person or another. The other piece that, that's really hard to predict, and this is about 30% maybe, is just what they call non-shared environments. Just sort of the culture you grow up with, the friends you have, the weird random stuff that happens. And that seems to be what's going on with narcissism. So there is some genetics, but that's certainly not the whole story. And the other pieces are a bit harder to find.

   24. CWChris Williamson7:15

       Why does it exist? Like, the trait must have had an adaptive use.

   25. WCW. Keith Campbell7:18

       (exhales)

   26. CWChris Williamson7:18

       Why is it here?

   27. WCW. Keith Campbell7:19

       Yeah. (swallows) Well, um, uh, e- y- you can think about... Th- that's a hard question to answer. So there are a few ways to think about it. One is you can go, "Well, what are the benefits of narcissism? Where does it really benefit you?" And when we think about evolutionary terms, we usually think about sort of resource gathering or mating, those are kind of the big evolutionary questions. Narcissism is linked to short term mating success. So people who are narcissistic are good at finding mates. Um, they're good at becoming leaders very quickly. So it has some maybe very short term advantages. The challenge, and this is where it gets complicated with, with the evolutionary models is, if, if you're, if you evolved in a small group at tri- you know, we're talking 50,000 years ago, you got your group of 50, 100 people, and you're the narcissistic jerk who's sti- who's, who's hooking up with everyone else's spouses, they're gonna kill you. I mean, that's just what happened if you look at the hunter-gatherer tribes. They, they'd have somebody in your family take you on a walk and you just wouldn't come back. There'd be a hunting accident. You know, there'd be... So these more psychopathic individuals were weeded out in those smaller cultures often. But you imagine when a culture gets bigger, you, you live in a big city, a big urban center, there's no check on ego, there's no check on narcissism. It, it thrives better. But I think that, that narcissism is really beneficial in the sort of new situations in the short term. Where you don't see the benefit is in these long-term established relationships. It, it's just not as useful.

   28. CWChris Williamson8:56

       Yeah. So in a society or a, a community where you are held to account over longer periods of time, the narcissist is going to lose, but in shorter interactions... That sounds a lot like the way that psychopaths work, that they can never stay in a town for one, for too long, because they screw over people and they realize who they are. Are all psychopaths narcissistic? And how does-

   29. WCW. Keith Campbell9:21

       It-

   30. CWChris Williamson9:21

       ... narcissism and psychopathy relate?
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   (laughs) Yes. …

   1. CWChris Williamson15:00

      make rules for the beta that she breaks for the alpha. And all of this is built around this sort of cult of alpha maleness, right? And a lot of this, you would be fascinated t- to, by some of the red pill movement and meninism blogs that are out there, r/mensrights on, uh, Reddit has a lot of this stuff on there. And, um, yeah, it's, it's interesting, especially upon reading your work, how the narcissism side of it has been utilized by people, it's been, uh, glorified by people as a tool-

   2. WCW. Keith Campbell15:34

      (laughs) Yes.

   3. CWChris Williamson15:34

      ... that should be used, that should be cultivated because it's going to cause ... Especially a lot of these people, I think, have been hurt by women perhaps in the past, or never had success with women, which has also caused them to be hurt.

   4. WCW. Keith Campbell15:44

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson15:45

      Um, so by, by increasing that narc- narcissism, they're increasing the distance between them emotionally, between them and the other people. And that's where the-

   6. WCW. Keith Campbell15:56

      (sighs)

   7. CWChris Williamson15:56

      ... this blend you said before of, of vulnerable and s-

   8. WCW. Keith Campbell16:00

      Grandiose.

   9. CWChris Williamson16:01

      ... grandiose narcissism. So, it's outwardly being grandiose because of inward vulnerability. "I'm trying to protect myself from being hurt by seeming like I don't give a shit and never fully investing in people."

   10. WCW. Keith Campbell16:13

       That's interesting. So, so f- uh, it makes me think of four things and I'll probably forget the second.

   11. CWChris Williamson16:20

       (laughs)

   12. WCW. Keith Campbell16:21

       But s- uh, first, when we talk about callousness, you know, you think about a callous, a callous works both ways, which I never think about, because I think about callousness as, "I treat people callously," but also it means I can't feel as much. And what you're saying is these people are wounded and so they develop a callous, like, "I'm not gonna let myself be wounded." Now, the reason we call vulnerable narcissism and grandiose narcissism both narcissism is back in the psychodynamic days, the Freudian days, you know, you go back 50, 100 years, people thought that what was on the outside of you was almost the opposite of the inside, just th- they thought that's the way the mind worked. So that, gee, if you seem really confident, underneath you're probably weak. It doesn't really work like that in general life. There are people who are confident, there are people who are weak, and there are some people who are both. But most confident people are just kind of confident. But what you're describing is a very Freudian process almost, where people are, they feel weak, they feel they can't succeed with women, they see other people who are and they go, "You know what I'm gonna be? I'm gonna toughen up and grow a shell and then, uh, and act in sort of an aggressive and confident way maybe, and that will convince women to like me, and I can't get hurt because I've got this big shell around me."

   13. CWChris Williamson17:36

       Yeah. It's that memetic quality that we have, right? We're trying to-

   14. WCW. Keith Campbell17:40

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson17:41

       ... reflect what we see with, with people. Yeah, I'll send you some, I'll send you some article links once we're done. I think you'd be really interested in looking at it.

   16. WCW. Keith Campbell17:47

       Very. So, my, my cha- with a lot of these when I think about it ... So the other thing is alpha males. Now I, um, I, I, I don't get the alpha male thing so much. I remember I was in Africa and I looked at a, I was looking at this group of gazelles. And I was with this guy and he goes, "Well, here's the alpha." What does the alpha do? Well, the alpha spends a year guarding every woman in his harem from guys until he gets exhausted and dies in a year or two. 'Cause it's being an alpha male, it kills you.

   17. CWChris Williamson18:18

       Hard work.

   18. WCW. Keith Campbell18:18

       I mean, that, th-... alpha males in nature, they, they just kinda die out. And the fact is, humans, we're much more balanced than that. We don't really work with these really strong alpha hierarchies like a lot of other creatures do. And so, the idea of wanting to be an alpha male, I'm like, "Dude, that's a lot to carry."

   19. CWChris Williamson18:40

       Mm-hmm. It's, it's a cult of personality now. That term on the internet is thrown around by a very large minority of men in a particular type of thought pool as the pinnacle of what you're supposed to become as a man. And I think another, another part of it, in terms of the alpha male thing, is, is just being confused about the metrics of success. Because the interesting thing with narcissism, as far as I see it, and specifically with being an alpha male, is that outwardly you have all of the trappings of success. And because I'm never going to get to see your internal scorecard, it almost doesn't matter. So this ruse, I think, is promulgated in a number of ways. One, by people that are narcissists and alpha males having that outward success. Secondly, by them never seeming like they suffer with criticism, so they almost seem invulnerable to it. And then thirdly, that they will begin to believe their own bullshit after a while. But the bottom line, we don't know what Conor McGregor or Elon Musk or some alpha male, red pill, pickup artistry guy, what the thoughts inside of his head are like when they go to sleep on a nighttime. When you put your head on the pillow-

   20. WCW. Keith Campbell19:53

       (laughs) Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson19:54

       ... no one gets to see that. But we c- we observe the objective metrics of success, the Instagram followers, the wealth, the girls.

   22. WCW. Keith Campbell20:01

       Yeah. In, in psychology, we have, we call it sort of extrinsic or external values or motives or goals and intrinsic values and goals. And extrinsic ones, with narcissism, the easiest way to remember this is sex, status, and stuff. You want sex, you want to have high social status, and you want material goods that show people. Like I saw that McGregor guy with his million dollar watch, and it kinda looked cheesy, man. I'm a watch guy. I didn't even like the million dollar watch, but guy's got a million dollar watch. Looks cooler than I am.

   23. CWChris Williamson20:34

       (laughs)

   24. WCW. Keith Campbell20:35

       Um, but that's that... Um, but, but it, but when you regulate extrinsically, uh, it, it... Look, I'm not telling anyone not to go for it in life. Please go for it. Please be (laughs) as much as you can. I've tried, you know. But know that when you start competing to be the best at sex, status, and stuff, one, you're always competing. You're never gonna win because as soon as you get to the top, someone, you're gonna be knocked off, and someone else will be. So, that's just the nature of it. You've been in entertainment, you know, I've been in d- you know, you just, this is the nature of it. You can't be on the top forever unless you're a country music star in the '50s in America. Um, and, and you're gonna get knocked off and you're gonna die alone. And that's the worst part. You can't have love. And so what happens is you see guys that are getting... you know, they're my age and th- and they're kind of like going, "Where's the love? I don't have any love in my life." Yeah, 'cause you're, you're an arrogant dick and you got all this great stuff and you got a million dollar watch, but you don't have any love.

   25. CWChris Williamson21:32

       Yeah.

   26. WCW. Keith Campbell21:32

       And you c- can't buy that. You can't buy a happy family. You can pretend you have one. You can't pay... So there's this, you get this really foundational loss in terms of emotional connection.

   27. CWChris Williamson21:43

       You know what's the-

   28. WCW. Keith Campbell21:44

       And that's the cost.

   29. CWChris Williamson21:44

       You know what else it is as well? Thinking further into this. A lot of the people who are proselytizing about the, the virtues of being an alpha male are guys in their 40s or in their 50s or in their late 50s who are almost acting like these savant sages of masculinity, who are t- talking about how it should be done, but they're playing a game that someone 20 years their junior should be playing. And by the time that you get to 50, you can't get in the mix with 21-year-olds in a nightclub anymore. You need a family-

   30. WCW. Keith Campbell22:18

       (laughs)
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. …

   1. WCW. Keith Campbell30:00

      or which is dutifulness, extraversion or energy, agreeableness or niceness, and neuroticism or instability. You know, so the- they spell OCEAN, if you ever wanna remember, or CANOE. Um, what you can do with those basic traits is you can combine them. I always think of like, you know, Mexican food. You go to a Mexican place, you're like, "Yeah, I want a taco or a burrito." It's the same ingredients, you just kinda organize them differently. And it's the same with personality. You take these basic ingredients.... and you organize them. So for narcissism, what you get is a big dollop of antagonism, kind of mean and self-centered, and then you add that extroversion piece to it, so you take, you know, low agreeableness and extroversion, that's a recipe for grandiose narcissism. Take that same ex- uh, low agreeableness or meanness or callousness, add neuroticism, anxiety, depression, and you end up with vulnerable narcissism. Does that make sense?

   2. CWChris Williamson30:55

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   3. WCW. Keith Campbell30:56

      So that's the idea that you can use these basic traits to make more complicated traits we talk about. A trait like psychopathy is really primarily just antagonism. It, it's really, in the Big Five, it's just a big piece of that antagonism that's sort of carved up in a certain way.

   4. CWChris Williamson31:13

      Yeah.

   5. WCW. Keith Campbell31:15

      So what this allows us to do as personality psychologists is whatever the trait is, we can take that trait, put it into Big Five terms, and then translate it into whatever trait we want. It's a bit of a Rosetta Stone for our traits. I mean, this is getting a little nerdy, but that's kinda how we do it.

   6. CWChris Williamson31:31

      I get it. What's the goals and motives for a narcissist?

   7. WCW. Keith Campbell31:35

      Well, you know, it's really, it really comes down in terms of the broader goals to sex status and stuff, that's where a lot of it can be framed, into getting leadership positions, getting power, getting money, getting access to sexual partners-

   8. CWChris Williamson31:49

      Even for the vulnerable one?

   9. WCW. Keith Campbell31:51

      Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just they're just scared to do it.

   10. CWChris Williamson31:54

       Mmm.

   11. WCW. Keith Campbell31:55

       The motivational structure is the same, but they're, but they don't have the dri- see, so in the, in the old, you know, in the old psychoanalytical literature, they'd say, you know, to be really narcissistic, you have to be really talented or really attractive. Because if you're really attractive or really talented, people will let you get away with it. So people who are vulnerable have the, they have the goals, they wanna be successful, but they, they, it's scary for them and pa- So let me give you a specific example. Selfies.

   12. CWChris Williamson32:25

       (laughs)

   13. WCW. Keith Campbell32:25

       So selfies, you know, we started studying selfies when this, you know, five, 10 years ago, when this, I guess it's been about, yeah, it's be- almost 10 years since people started taking selfies. It's been awhile. Um, and what we found with selfies are people who are grandiose narcissists, they take selfies very easily 'cause they like themselves, they're happy to show their abs, they're more full-body and they're more alone, and they, and they don't have any problem sharing selfies. It's just kinda what they do. People who are vulnerable wanna take selfies too, but when they do it, they don't really like what they see, they get anxious, it's not as much fun for them. So it's very challenging. So if you talk to influencers who have more vulnerability, and maybe you do, I don't, I haven't talked to that many influencers, um, but when you talk to people, it's very painful. They're like, "I had to put this picture out of myself on Instagram. I wasn't sure if I was hot enough. It's, I wanna be hot, but it's a real struggle for me." So that's the problem with the vulnerability is, is like you, you wanna be out there, but you've got all this concern and neuroticism that's kinda keeping you back.

   14. CWChris Williamson33:30

       Yeah. Let's, let's talk about social media. I've got, I've got some thoughts in my mind about that that I really want to dig into, but I wanna kinda close the loop to the social media world at the moment. Have you guys been tracking narcissism through the advent of social media? Has there been a statistically significant increase? Can we say that social media is feeding narcissism?

   15. WCW. Keith Campbell33:50

       Uh-

   16. CWChris Williamson33:50

       Or is just, is it just enabling narcissism?

   17. WCW. Keith Campbell33:53

       So it's a little bit more complicated than that, I think, historically, because when we first started looking at this, and, and Jean Twenge and I wrote a book called The Narcissism Epidemic, like, a decade ago, end of two thous- end of the Great Recession, so this was probably 12... And at that point, we saw narcissism really spiking up with college students and social media. And I really thought that there was this dynamic feedback loop going on where the social media was really encouraging narcissism. And maybe it was. But then what we started noticing is we started seeing these very negative s- sort of side effects of social media, especially in girls, where they'd report a lot of social comparison processes, so like, "I am online and I look at my friend and she's so happy and looks so attractive and I'm not, so I feel bad," or fear of missing out, like FOMO. So people get on social media, they're like, "God, these people are so happy and I'm not at the party." And so it's almost like social media started making people depressed in a way. And we saw a change of, uh, people go from Instagram to fins- to fake Instagram, to Snapchat, to TikTok, so they're kind of moving away from the social pressure. Um, at the same time, when you look at the research on narcissism and social media, it seems to be self-reinforcing, which is kind of what you hinted at, that people who are narcissistic use it and it reinforces their narcissism. So I put out my Insta post, everybody likes me, I go, "God, I'm pretty hot. I'm gonna do it again." That's reinforcing, but it's not turning you into a narcissist. It sort of reinforces what's there. So my guess is there's a lot going on here. It's individually reinforcing, but at the cultural level, it's having these, these side effects that aren't necessarily predicted, or aren't a- always feeding the direction of narcissism.

   18. CWChris Williamson35:43

       Jonathan Haidt's work on that in The Coddling of the American Mind was so scary. There's, for the people that haven't seen it, there's essentially a graph that talks about, is it anxiety disorder and depressive sort of episodes amongst teenage girls?

   19. WCW. Keith Campbell35:57

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson35:57

       Like, precisely the ones that you want to give sympathy to. You know, like, a 13-year-old girl that feels anxious and depressed, it's just, you know, you just wanna make them feel better.

   21. WCW. Keith Campbell36:05

       Yeah. Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson36:06

       Um, and it's the advent of Instagram, 2012, I think.

   23. WCW. Keith Campbell36:10

       Yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson36:10

       And you just see, it's l-

   25. WCW. Keith Campbell36:13

       Yeah. Yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson36:13

       ... like a line in the graph, like Tesla's stock price last year. There's just this line in the graph.

   27. WCW. Keith Campbell36:17

       Just kind of arcs, right? Yeah.

   28. CWChris Williamson36:18

       Yeah, exactly. And it just lifts off. One of the interesting takeaways from that was to do with the fact that girls...... use words and more social backstabbing techniques in order to deal with disputes. And the r- hypothesis that Jonathan suggested for why that wasn't happening with guys is that guys will just throw hands and then, uh, l- pick themselves up off the floor and so, then you're best friends with the guy that you just had a fight with five minutes later. But because girls don't necessarily have that physical outlet naturally, that has caused the increase in depression and anxiety.

   29. WCW. Keith Campbell36:55

       I, I think there's that, uh, you know, sometimes people talk about, like, cyberbullying or whatever, that you can get those indirect negative s- uh, effects. And the other thing to add to what you're saying that makes it even worse is in the old days if everyone hated you, you could move to the next town and change your name and start school again and no one would know who you were. But now, you know, your social identity follows you. So these kids, it's very hard to escape some of the bullying and stuff if it gets bad. So, it, it can be dark, yeah. And, and, yeah.

   30. CWChris Williamson37:25

       Think about, let's think about the three S's, the sex, status and stuff, which I love to remember what narcissism hap- uh, what narcissism's there for. Social media has permitted everybody to ubiquitously communicate their sex, their status, and their stuff. Here's a photo of me with my girlfriend wearing my brand new watch and I've got an extra 100 followers than I did yesterday, which is 10,000 more than you've got.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Sadly, I- …

   1. WCW. Keith Campbell45:00

      of the first people I've seen since some of these '70s people who's famous for being famous." Just a celebrity, just like, uh, just like a queen used to be. And then the Kardashians and then reality television. And there was research done by Dr. Drew Pinsky, who's an American, like CNN psychologist guy, and a guy Mark Young who's a professor at Southern Cal, where they gave the narcissistic personality inventory to 150 or so celebrities on the show. Great study. And what I loved about it is at the end they sort of said, "Well, here are the scores," and celebrities are h- you know, relatively high, but the highest scores were reality, reality television. And what's interesting and what at the time was like, "Well, these are people who are famous, but they're famous for not doing anything. They're just famous for being famous." And so then the question is, who's lining up for this? Like what's the, what are you lining up for? I mean, I have, what are you, what are people lining up for with reality television? Is it the fame or is that fame a launchpad for-

   2. CWChris Williamson46:03

      Sadly, I-

   3. WCW. Keith Campbell46:03

      ... something else?

   4. CWChris Williamson46:04

      ... I, I wondered about this. Um, when I went into Love Island, which was the second reality TV show I did, there was only two people out of the entire cast when I went on who weren't either unemployed or self-employed. They didn't want reality TV to be a springboard for their career, they wanted it to be their career. This is my opportunity to be special. I've always felt like, because everybody I think in their heart of hearts feels like they're unique, right? Because we only get to see-

   5. WCW. Keith Campbell46:36

      Oh, sure. Yeah, that deeper... Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson46:37

      ... our own, uh, motivations. We view the nuance of our phenomenological experience from a front row seat. And I only get to see the outward things that you say and I'm like, "Well, look at how deep and meaningful and the unique thoughts I have."

   7. WCW. Keith Campbell46:51

      (laughs)

   8. CWChris Williamson46:51

      Because I can't see your deep and meaningful and unique thoughts.

   9. WCW. Keith Campbell46:53

      Yeah. Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson46:53

       Um, and I think what it's, uh, given people is, "Look, this is your opportunity to be someone, to be unique, to be adored." Finally, everyone is going to see that that, uh, very particular combination of thoughts and personalities and traits and everything else that you have, finally you're going to be able to get your pedestal from which you can shout about it. Um, but it's easy come, easy go, you know? Um, and that, that is personally where I think i- i- if I was a young person now looking up to, uh, role models to want to become like, you need to look at people who are scaling over time, who are leveraging and compounding over time. So you need to be looking toward people like... The richest guy on the planet is also going out with Grimes, right?

   11. WCW. Keith Campbell47:41

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson47:41

       The richest guy on the planet, he's been on Joe Rogan, he's smoking weed, he's living a good life, but he actually adds value. That's the guy that is compounding. The people that are easy come, easy go are ho- the, the sad point is there was no equivalent in the past because we didn't have such frictionless communication that meant that you couldn't weaponize fame in the same sort of speed that we can now.

   13. WCW. Keith Campbell48:02

       Oh, right. It is, um, I mean that's... First of all, that's kind of terrifying to me that you're saying that people want fame, but, I mean, I, I mean, I, I, I'll tell you a story. So, uh, in my life, uh, I do work and every once in a while I get famous, but it's for like a week. So it'll be like the biggest, I mean, this is going back, like the biggest story in the world for like three days, and I'll get a bunch of hate mail and then like I get forgotten. So, (laughs) so I've gone through the fame cycle a bunch, micro fame, not real fame. No one knows who I am. Um, but I had one of my grad students do it. We had a paper come out on narcissism, and it was narcissism in Facebook. This is way back in the day, we did the first study on that and people were very interested and I said, "Go be famous." And the first day she's like, "This is awesome. This is so much fun. I'm talking to everybody." And then a day later she's like, "This is awful."

   14. CWChris Williamson48:55

       (laughs)

   15. WCW. Keith Campbell48:55

       One day.She's like, "I've got all this hate mail. Everybody hates me." And I'm like, "Exactly. One day, it, you got, you got to ride the fame cycle for one day and realize you don't want to be on it." But how do people know? You know, how would you know what fame is like until you got to do it? And, and what they tell kids is... You know, uh, my kids are watching... I mean, my kids are watching, like, Australian model shows. They're probably (laughs) , you know, they're probably watching Love Island Australia 'cause the American shows are so boring now, they have to watch the Australian ones.

   16. CWChris Williamson49:26

       Yeah. You know, the number one, uh, aspiring job that primary school children want now is YouTuber.

   17. WCW. Keith Campbell49:33

       (sighs) I mean, I mean, I, I, I lo- I love the entrepreneurship of that, but it's just, it, it's just not a long-term. Like you said, I, and very much in investment terms, it's like you could leverage it all on Bitcoin. It might work. Or you could just slowly invest in, you know, sort of dollar-cost average.

   18. CWChris Williamson49:52

       Dollar-cost averaging. I see it.

   19. WCW. Keith Campbell49:53

       (laughs) Buy, buy some rentals and, you know, kind of wait till you're 40, 50, you're gonna have some wealth. But, but you, it's gonna take about 20, 30 years. That's just the nature of it. Yeah. It's, uh-

   20. CWChris Williamson50:02

       It's interesting, man. There's a l- there's a lot of different rabbit holes here. Um, let's talk about other people, ch- t- perhaps try and give some takeaways, some actionable takeaways. How can we help someone who's a narcissist to change? Like, is that even ethical to, to reduce someone's narcissism?

   21. WCW. Keith Campbell50:18

       Well, I, I mean, uh, I don't go around trying to change anybody for anything. That's just my... My general principle in life is everyone lives their own life, and I'm not gonna tell anyone what to do. So ethically, that's how I frame it. But, um, if people want to change and, and often... You know, when we first started studying narcissism, when I first started doing this, I thought people who are narcissistic, they're kind of into it and they don't wanna change 'cause it's working for them. And I thought that for a long time, but with the recent research, what we're seeing is that people who are narcissistic often see that their interpersonal antagonism is costing them in life. Basically, they go, "My relationships aren't as good as some other people's because I'm kind of an arrogant jerk, and I'd love to be able to have more connection, have more love," especially when you get older. You know, imagine being 50 and single and hitting the bar. I mean, it just, it just sounds... I'm sorry, (laughs) I was at a bar like two weeks ago, and I'm like, "My God, I w- I spent my whole life trying to get out of this place. I'm not coming back." You know, it's (laughs) , uh, um, but, uh, but, but so they... So there's this realization. So what do you do? What do you do? Well, therapy seems to work for narcissism. I didn't think that at first. It seems to work, but the challenge is that people have to stick with it. And what you see with people who are narcissistic, they go into therapy and they go, "This isn't working for me. This person doesn't get how u- unique and special I am." So one thing is to, um, you know, therapy is a great idea, but the other thing is, and this is what I talk about in the book, is figure out what the problem is. If your problem is love, well, focus on love. You can still be exciting and charismatic and, and, and a killer and an adventurer and try to win and competitive and love. You know, they, they're not... these things aren't at war with each other. Um, so my advice is usually don't... You don't have to worry about your arrogance. Just focus on being connected to people. And if you get that connection, your arrogance will take care of itself.

   22. CWChris Williamson52:21

       Mm.

   23. WCW. Keith Campbell52:23

       It's a gift.

   24. CWChris Williamson52:23

       Is there a time, is there a time where you would ever prescribe someone to have more narcissism?

   25. WCW. Keith Campbell52:28

       Yeah. Oh, yeah. Um, I sh- I said that too quickly, didn't I? But I (laughs) -

   26. CWChris Williamson52:32

       (laughs) Uh, yeah. I just love... I'm s- free narcissism for everyone.

   27. WCW. Keith Campbell52:35

       Yeah. Well, uh, so, eh, like, in my job as an academic, the way it works is you're a student, and then to go get hired, you have to go around to these different universities and do job talks. So they'll fly you in to University of, let's say, Southampton in England, where my advisor is. I'd spend two days meeting everybody on campus, meet the dean, meet the faculty, meet the students, and I'd do a talk or two. The people who are successful at that are confident and charismatic and extroverted. They're sort of narcissistic. Um, so you need to have that ability to carry yourself in a confident way to succeed. It's crazy. It's not the way we should select academics. We should select them on what they do, not how they perform in public, but we select them that way. So, cases like that where you need public performance, where you need to meet people, um, where you're competitive, I'm like, "You got to have some confidence. You got to have some ego. You got to go into it." And so I'm... Narcissism is not bad. It is a trade-off, and it's really useful in some situations. The problem is when you start thinking you're... like you start owning it, like, "I'm better than everybody. I really am better. I'm really famous. I'm really more special than these other real-" Like, w- we're not. We're not that great. I mean, they might remember Elon Musk.

   28. CWChris Williamson53:53

       Richest.

   29. WCW. Keith Campbell53:53

       Not remembering me. (laughs)

   30. CWChris Williamson53:54

       Richest, rich- richest guy on the planet, yeah.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:14:39

   What was the second…

   1. WCW. Keith Campbell1:00:00

      would throw out two other things just to, to, um, um ... The other thing that I think is an issue is we're all, all on social media and we feel like we're talking to each other on social media, like I'm having a discussion with you, but really what we're doing is we're making networks in a giant super brain, a giant super association network. Like Twitter's a giant super association network. Association networks are like dumb brains. They're like the dumb stereotyping part of your brain you have that makes quick decisions and, and stereotypes and heuristics, but it doesn't think clearly. And we've created like a massive dumb brain and, and we think we're engaging with people, but we're not. I, and that's how I take it. Like, I think I'm with Twitter and having a conversation, but I'm really just a network in a giant meta node and it's, and I'm creating something bigger than me. Whereas this feels like an actual discussion.

   2. CWChris Williamson1:00:54

      What was the second thing?

   3. WCW. Keith Campbell1:00:54

      If that ... Does that ... Pardon?

   4. CWChris Williamson1:00:56

      What was the second thing? You said you had two things.

   5. WCW. Keith Campbell1:00:59

      I probably just totally lost it, I'm sorry. (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson1:01:01

      No, that's, that's, that's absolutely fine.

   7. WCW. Keith Campbell1:01:03

      If that's okay. Yeah, I'm just really, like, I just feel like everybody's drifting off, and I don't know the forces that are going to bring people together. And it scares me a little bit because there's so much room for forces to come in and start doing that job.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:01:15

      Man, we could ... This is a whole other podcast episode, but let's think about, um, how politically affiliated people are, how vehement they are, patriotic about their different political affiliations, uh, movements like BLM, ANTIFA, how much people support sports teams now. You have people who have a religious fervor around their sports team. They do ... Think about what it used to be. You would go to the same place, the same day of the week, every single week. That would be church on a Sunday, well, it's the stadium on a Saturday.

   9. WCW. Keith Campbell1:01:44

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson1:01:44

       Now, you don't even ... When you can't go see live sport, you can still have your Reddit thread or your WhatsApp or Telegram or Signal group chat with the other fans that are season ticket holders while you watch the game on TV. Other things that people are, are, are sort of bowing themselves a- at the church of and I think is a, a good thing is the church of Marcus Aurelius. Copies of Meditations sold out at the beginning of 2020. Sold out. Couldn't get them on Amazon.

   11. WCW. Keith Campbell1:02:10

       That's-

   12. CWChris Williamson1:02:10

       Imagine-

   13. WCW. Keith Campbell1:02:10

       See, that's really interesting.

   14. CWChris Williamson1:02:11

       ... selling a book out. And I had, uh-

   15. WCW. Keith Campbell1:02:13

       Well, I mean, a book that's a thousand years ... I don't know when that's from.

   16. CWChris Williamson1:02:16

       2000 years old. Two and a bit-

   17. WCW. Keith Campbell1:02:18

       Isn't that ... Okay.

   18. CWChris Williamson1:02:18

       I- nearly 2000 years old. I had Donald Robertson on, Scottish, uh, Stoic philosopher and, uh, ph- philosophy expert. He's also CBT-trained, um-

   19. WCW. Keith Campbell1:02:28

       Interesting.

   20. CWChris Williamson1:02:28

       ... which gives him a very unique insight. Uh, and he was saying when he talks to, uh, people who are trendy and now into Stoicism, a lot of them have actually had CBT before. And he asks them, "So why, why are you so interested in Stoicism?" They say, "Well, what I wanted was like, was like CBT but bigger." You know? "What I wanted was like Western yoga with the spiritual side." Like, that's what they want. And what it ... All of these different things, whether it's the sport, whether it's the political movement, whether it's the, uh, animal liberation movement, veganism, climate change, I want belonging, I want a, a sense of structure, I want a linear sense of progression, I want an example from role models and people that have come before me that tell me what I'm supposed to do. And someone's looking to a Roman emperor that's been dead for 2000 years sometimes.

   21. WCW. Keith Campbell1:03:15

       (laughs) I have, uh, I mean, I, I kind of vacillate now between like real pessimism and real optimism about things-

   22. CWChris Williamson1:03:23

       (laughs)

   23. WCW. Keith Campbell1:03:23

       ... because I'm like, 'cause I kind of see the old world dying, and you see the new world coming in, and you just don't know how it's gonna work out.

   24. CWChris Williamson1:03:30

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   25. WCW. Keith Campbell1:03:31

       And on one hand, I see people just breaking. Every ... I just look around, and people are depressed, and they're isolated, and what we're doing to people is just ... I mean, as a psychologist, I, this is godawful. I mean, isolating people, keeping them out of the sun, having them order food. I mean, it's just, jeez, it, it's destroying people. But I've had so many conversations and the, the interest in, in spiritual growth, in, you know, in Stoicism or psychedelics or yoga, I mean, this stuff is ... People are, like, trying to find something. And so, it's this really interesting time where they kind of controlled all the standard stuff and that non-standard stuff's coming in, and I, I don't know how it's going to shake out. I really don't. But we're in a, we're in a major transition.

   26. CWChris Williamson1:04:17

       I think that the, the pandemic, it, it's an absolute catastrophe, and for the people that have lost loved ones and family members and stuff, it is not good. But I really think it put the brakes on some quite malignant parts of modern society as well. I said it earlier on, you can't flex with a face mask on. Like, you can't show off your brand new Rolls-Royce when you're not allowed out of your house to drive it. Uh, and I think it's reminded us all ... You know, like, how many people have spent more time being in touch with their family because they're terrified they're going to die? I'm aware that holding a, a viral gun to the head of your mother or grandmother isn't necessarily the best motivation for it, but perhaps it's reminded us exactly what sort of matters. And, um, yeah, I, I don't think that a, a pandemic is n- necessarily the optimal strategy for causing that to happen within a civilization-

   27. WCW. Keith Campbell1:05:04

       Yeah.

   28. CWChris Williamson1:05:04

       ... but in terms of trying to find silver linings in the cloud, I, I definitely think that that could be one of them.

   29. WCW. Keith Campbell1:05:10

       Do you think that d- ... I mean, I get that same sense too when I, I talk to my kids 'cause I'm always trying to figure out kid culture, so I ask my own kids. I don't really, you know. Um, and I, I noticed this, the, the fashion is really kind of boring, almost 1930s style. A lot of 1980s kind of mom fashion I see 'em wearing that's very ... I mean, it's, it reminds me of what my mom wore, so I don't hate it, but it's very boring. It's not really showy. So, I got the sense that people, like you said, aren't flexing as much. And I wonder if the pandemic hastened the change we were going through or if it's just as soon as the pandemic's gone, it's like a recession when everyone's like, "When is the recession?" They're like, "Back to simplicity." And then as soon (laughs) as the recession's over, they're like, "After I get back from my holiday in Spain."

   30. CWChris Williamson1:05:55

       Yeah. I think a big part of-

Episode duration: 1:14:39