Modern WisdomThe Psychology of Power & Control - Tulsi Gabbard
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,099 words- 0:00 – 9:54
Who Actually Runs the Government?
- CWChris Williamson
Who actually runs the government, in your experience?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
(laughs) Not who you think it is (laughs) . It's, um... And in- and- and- in many cases, especially recently, uh, the- the troubling part about all this is it's not even people who we vote for. When you look at, uh, what happened when President Biden had that infamous debate with President Trump, uh, it- it exposed the reality that many of us have known for a long time, which is that President Biden has not been the guy calling the shots. He's not been the guy making the decisions, nor has it been Kamala Harris for that matter, nor will it be if she is elected president. It is this cabal of, you know, the Democrat elite, the- the woke warmongers, uh, made up of the likes of Hillary Clinton and, uh, Barack Obama, and, you know, Tony Blinken and Jake Sullivan and, you know, people who are in the military industrial complex, people who profit from us being in a constant state of war. It is, um, those in the administrative state and the national security state who derive more authorities and ability to take away, uh, our liberty when we are in a heightened state of crisis or war. It is the- the- their friends and billionaires and people in media who all derive their power from being able to have a figurehead that essentially they can control. And the most troubling part about oth- There's so many things wrong with this, of course, but really at- at the most fundamental level, you look at, um, you know, our country is the oldest democracy in the world, but the reality of a truly functioning and thriving democracy that has brought to life the vision that our founders had for us, that we really have a government of, by, and for the people, and that we have the ability and responsibility for that matter, to ensure that, um, the government we have only exists with the consent of the governed, that becomes very hard to do, to hold people accountable when the person that you voted for is- is certainly not the one making the decisions.
- CWChris Williamson
How long has that been the case? Was it ever the case that the president ran the country? Wh- When was the inflection point?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Y- I don't- I don't know that there's one specific. I mean, there ha- You know, as personalities come in and shift here and there, uh, I would say the answer to that has probably changed. But i- i- in the election that we are facing here very shortly in the United States, um, it's our opportunity to hit the reset button, and, you know, however people feel about the choices and the options that we have, and they've changed a little bit recently, but really it's only the faces that have changed. The stakes have not changed, and- and the choices between the Democrat elite, and I've been saying this for months, like, "Hey guys, don't..." Because it's like, "Oh, is Biden gonna stay or is he gonna go? And who's e- they gonna replace him? Is it Gavin? Is it Ka-" All of these different theories, they make for good chatter, I guess, on cable news, but I've been telling people all along, "Don't be distracted." You know, you take one horse out, you put another horse in, you've got the same people who are running the show, and it is- it is between the Democrat elite, will be Kamala Harris on the ballot, and, uh, a- and the- uh, those calling the shots behind the scenes continuing to remain in power versus, uh, Donald Trump, who has a record of... I mean, the reason why they're doing all they can to destroy him is because he won't bend the knee to this Washington establishment, which is- which is made up of people in both political parties, by the way.
- CWChris Williamson
What makes you think that a Trump presidency would be any more inoculated against this nefarious behind-the-scenes control than the one that we have at the moment? Surely you're just... I- if the people out front don't make any difference because it's people behind the scenes that are changing, then what makes Trump any better than what we've got at the moment?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
It's not that anyone who's put out front doesn't make a difference. It is specific to, in this- in this world that we're living in now, specific to, uh, President Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris, and- and the reason why they've been doing all they can to try to keep Trump off the ballot in over 32 states, all of the court cases and lawsuits and everything that the media's thrown at 'em, the reason why they're doing that is because, uh, you may agree or disagree with his decisions or his policies or the way that he talks about things, but he is- he is not beholden to those same, uh, establishment interests that so many of these establishment politicians are. And so, you know, he's- he's not going in and saying, "Oh gosh, well I gotta do what this person says," or, "I gotta do what that person says." I think oftentimes even his own staff doesn't know what decision (laughs) he's gonna make or what position, uh, he'll- he'll put forward. And- and that is, to me, that's the clear choice. You have a choice between those who believe that- that government knows better for us than we do, that, uh, their power is more important than our freedom, uh, that their power in many cases derives from being in a constant state of war that undermines our national security, versus Trump who has the ability to, um, and frankly the backbone to say, "Yeah, no. I'm not gonna go down that road," or, "We're gonna take a different path," or, "We shouldn't be an unnecessary counterproductive regime change wars. We should focus on investing in our country and try to work towards a future of- of peace and freedom, uh, and prosperity."
- CWChris Williamson
If that's correct, if it is the case that this sort of limp, flaccid Democratic Party has permitted people behind the scenes to come and basically run, puppeteer-... the people that are out front. That's happened very quickly, because it was not that long ago that we had the very guy that you're saying will sanitize this thing in office. So is it going to then take a long time for that to be cleaned up? And also, how do we know that some of this didn't already exist?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
It did already exist.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
It did already exist, uh, because the party elite itself has been very powerful for a long time, so that, that hasn't come around, uh, very quickly. Um, and you know, I think, I think one of the, the problems when President Trump was elected last time was, uh... And, and he's talked about this himself. He came in and, uh, you know, he didn't, he'd never worked in Washington before and he had a bunch, ended up with a bunch of people around him who were a part of this establishment, uh, this Washington establishment.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you think he didn't really have that much of a plan? Do you think it was a surprise to him that he got in, in some ways?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
It, I, I don't know for sure, but it certainly seemed that way. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Felt like it.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah. And, and, you know, I mean, there, and there were... And, and the con- it's interesting because the conversations that I'm hearing coming from even establishment Republicans right now, uh, are very similar to the ones that I heard in 2016 when Trump was elected, which was, "Okay, like, we gotta, we gotta, like, balance the scales," in their words, "by surrounding Trump with people who hold completely opposing views than he does to try to mitigate what they view as the, the 'threat' that he poses to, not the country..."
- CWChris Williamson
Who is it that's saying that we need to surround him?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Oh, I mean, there's, it, it's basically like the neocon warmongers, even within the Republican Party, so it, it-
- CWChris Williamson
And what, what do they see as the position he holds that they're trying to counterbalance?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
That he... And, and he's been pretty vocal about this. Like, he's like, "No, we're not gonna wage more stupid wars and we're gonna put America first," in his words. "And, uh, we will achieve that through, by peace, through strength."
- CWChris Williamson
Who wants war and why?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
You would be shocked by how many people do. And they won't say, "I want war," or, "I like to see more people dead." Of course, you know, they won't use those words. But there are, are, um, politicians who are beholden to the big defense contractors who are making billions and trillions of dollars, uh, and they are their political donors and their supporters and their friends. Uh, and, and ultimately, it's those politicians whose knee-jerk reaction to any challenge or situation in the world, instead of choosing diplomacy and seeing war as the last resort once you've exhausted all other means-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... understanding how costly it is both in, in lives and in taxpayer dollars, it's just, "Hey, we gotta go and punish this bad guy, topple this regime, uh, you know, wage this modern, modern day siege through economic sanctions and warfare," all of the tools that they have at their disposal, without thinking through what the cost and consequences of those actions and policies are.
- CWChris Williamson
Presumably on the ground and also economically, domestically too.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Both.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, it seems, a-a-a-are these people-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
And it's, by the way, it's not reflective of... I think especially over these last 20 plus years, the vast majority of Americans, regardless of political party, are sick and tired of this, so their view is not reflective. They're not just like, "Oh, well, this is what the, 'people' want." It is ultimately, it goes back to this kind of cabal of power-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... that they're trying to hold on to.
- 9:54 – 16:35
What Motivates Leaders to Go to War?
- CWChris Williamson
Do you think that those people... 'Cause I, I, I struggle to find or meet people that are genuinely evil. There's people that have got goals and then they're kind of, um, uh, risky and frivolous en route toward getting those goals, and you think, "Ah, this is just collateral damage. Who really cares? I'm getting my backhand up from Raytheon or whoever the fuck." But it seems surprising to me that someone would think, "I want to go to war." So do you think that these people that are pushing for it genuinely believe that it's in the best interest of the country? Have they been able to gaslight themselves this Stockholm syndrome from whoever is sort of continuing to fund them? Or is it something a little bit more malicious? Are they actually sort of trying to land grab or, or this sort of odd power game that imagine, I imagine it feels powerful for you to be America and for you to have a foothold here and have a foothold there? Have you got any idea what kind of motivates these people?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
I think they tell themselves whatever they need to tell themselves to sleep at night. But as someone who's been... You know, I still serve in the Army today. I've been deployed to war zones in different parts of the world. Uh, seeing and experiencing firsthand the, the harsh ugliness and realities of war and the cost. Um, the people who are so quick to go to war and see that as the first response rather than the last, uh, number one, they, they don't have any excuse. I, I, I don't believe everybody shou- you know, it's mandatory to serve in the... I'm not, I, I, I don't advocate for that. But you, you, if you are in a position to make these decisions about war and peace, you need to be very responsible and do your due diligence to actually truly understand what the consequences of those decisions will be.
- CWChris Williamson
Might be worth a quick visit to the front lines maybe.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Uh, they do those all the time for photo ops. I, I saw this whi- uh, while I was deployed, and I've, I've seen a bunch even when I was in Congress for eight years, where, you know, they'll go and they'll do like, "We'll stop here in this war zone for 12 hours and hop off the, the private plane and take some quick photos and, you know, wear your flak vest and the, and the helmet," um, you know, for the picture, but it's, you know, it, it's-
- CWChris Williamson
Visually impressive, but...... and, like, realistically unimpressed.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
I suppose. Yeah, I mean, it looks really goofy to me. But, you know, for them, it tells a good story.
- CWChris Williamson
You could per- pick apart where they are.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
I've been to... I've heard the... Like, "I've been to Iraq 27 times." It's like, okay. Like-
- CWChris Williamson
The air conditioned jet wasn't the-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
And yet, and yet, even those who are saying this are some of the very same people who are saying, like, "We should just go bomb this country to smithereens." Like, okay, like, there, there's maybe a really prob- a real big problem that we're dealing with here, but is that really, is that really the right answer? Is that the best answer? What, what happens as the second and third and fourth order of effects after we do what you're proposing? Uh, what will the costs and consequences be, again, in human lives and the economy and in all of these other ramifications that a responsible leader should be considering before you go and advocate for such a serious thing?
- CWChris Williamson
So, it seems like you've got Democratic Party not happy with Trump generally, uh, some factions of the Republican Party not happy with Trump. So it seems like, you know-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
And Nikki Haley, you know, just to put a name to... Nikki Haley is, is one of, kind of the, the figureheads of that faction within the Republican Party.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. So, Nikki Haley is driving forward this neocon-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah, very much so.
- CWChris Williamson
... warmongering-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
How come she's still there?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Because there are people with a lot of money, uh, who make money from that position or supporting that position, and they see... Again, they... I- I don't know what they tell themselves to be able to sleep at night and be comfortable with what they're doing.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
But, um, they, they have convinced themselves that this is the way things should be.
- CWChris Williamson
That's what makes me think that, uh, it is self-conviction as opposed... or self-conviction, as opposed to, uh, leading this sort of double life where you know that it's wrong and then you go out front, because the level of certainty that you need to be able to step out in front of the camera and, "We should do this. We need to do that," you go home and you drink yourself into a hole, because there would be... Uh, for me the, uh, you know, just straight up multiple personality disorder that I'd have to go through would break my brain in half. I don't think that I-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
'Cause you're a good person. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Well, other people would, would disagree. But, yeah, I- I know what you mean. Like, it's just-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
But I mean, it's like, okay, well, I- I- I get what you're, I get what you're, what you're driving at. And, and, you know, like, okay, well how do you define someone who is evil or driven by evil intent?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Uh, I would argue that, that even if there's not, like, some Jekyll and Hyde situation going on, uh, I would define that evil intent as someone who cares more about their position, their political position, or their power, or their influence-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Uh, and, and s- and I... Uh, definitely in certain cases, and this is why Kamala Harris would be so dangerous as president and commander in chief, because I have no doubt in my mind she would immediately feel the need to exert strength-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... and to assert her position and prove that she is a truly strong and powerful commander in chief of the United States of America's military. And what better way to do that, what more effective way to do that than to actually use our military and go out and, and, uh, you know, com- commit an act of, of war?
- 16:35 – 24:37
How Obvious Was Biden’s Declining Health?
- CWChris Williamson
Going back to what you mentioned before, which was, uh, the fact that everybody knew behind the scenes but nobody was talking about out front, which was the declining mental health of Biden-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... just how widespread was that internally, do you think?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
I mean, it w- it was impossible to ignore, impossible to ignore.
- CWChris Williamson
But if you compartmentalize him, "Keep him away, we don't let him out front. That's a cheap fake edit. That's a whatever."
- TGTulsi Gabbard
I think, I think that's the challenge though is they... E- even as they did all of that, um, it, it wasn't enough to try to hide his, his, you know, both physical and mental decline. Um, uh, you know, I- I was with him on the debate stage in, in 2020 when I was running for president, and I've known Joe Biden for a very long time. I was friends with his son who also served in the Army National Guard, and, um, you know, people say, uh, have asked me like, "Did you see signs of this back in 2020?" It's... No. I mean, it was the same Joe Biden that, that I'd known for, for many, many years. And I think recently someone did a, a side-by-side of, of his performance on the debate stage in 2020 versus now-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... and how, uh, significant that difference is. So I... You know, even hearing Kamala Harris and the people around him, and, you know, Morning Joe on MSNBC say, "Oh, you know, he's never been sharper, and he's in the best form he's ever been in his life." Like, anybody who knows him now, and certainly has known him over the years, uh, knew that that was all, it was all crap.
- CWChris Williamson
We've all seen those photos of before term and after term. I mean, even Obama-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
That's true. Oh, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... who entered as this sort of vibrant-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
... handsome Black guy, and he comes out, and you go, "That's two decades in eight years. Congratulations."
- TGTulsi Gabbard
That's his whole job.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep. Of course, it is.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Every, every president, every president that served. So, uh, obviously...... when you're in your late 70s, um, just imagine the toll, the toll-
- CWChris Williamson
Ruthless.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... that that is.
- CWChris Williamson
So this is something, uh, I'm about to make one of the most unpopular cases that the internet's gonna hear this year. Every time that I've seen this sort of commentary around, uh, Biden's decline, it's made me feel sad.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
It's made me feel uncomfortable as I watch this, and for two reasons. First one is the one that everybody kind of agrees with, which is, it's an older man who's sort of being forced by this organization to be the tip of the spear when he's evidently not capable of doing it and blah, blah, blah. But the other side is, this is the twilight of his career.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And people remember the thing that you left them with.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
The lasting impression is often the one that kind of continues through. And, you know, you've got, you can make whatever criticisms you want about what he's actually done or said throughout his career, I don't really know that much. But I know the way that people socially interpret signals-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... from others, and to think that you've got this guy, how long has he been, like, five decades-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... or something? He's been in it forever.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
I think he was the youngest US senator ever elected when he got elected to the US Senate.
- 24:37 – 30:24
Tulsi’s Unique Political Path
- CWChris Williamson
I, I think one of the most interesting things, you were vice president of the DNC.And then, 11 years later, spoke at CPAC-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... still as a Democrat-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... slightly non-typical trajectory-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
My whole life has been-
- CWChris Williamson
... th-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... non-typical. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Can you explain that arc?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah, yeah. Um, I've always been a very fiercely independent-minded person. Uh, even in, you know, I served as a state representative in Hawaii for one term, I served as a member of the Honolulu City Council, um, you know, had a district with over about 100,000 people and dealing with literally things like potholes and sewers and parks and public safety. Uh, and then I served in Congress for eight years. And throughout that entire period, I was a Democrat, uh, and always, uh, a very independent-minded one. Um, I was asked to serve as vice chair of the DNC roughly two weeks after I was sworn in as a member of Congress.
- CWChris Williamson
The freshest of freshmen.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yes. (laughs) And literally when I got the call, it was an evening, I was sitting in the back. I'm pretty sure there was Uber back then, I don't know, I was sitting in the back of a taxi or something. And, uh, I got a call saying, "Would you serve as vice chair of the DNC?" And my response literally was like, "What is a vice chair of the DNC? (laughs) What are you, what are you really asking me? What do you, what do you want me to do?" Um, but I, you know, I agreed to do it, take adv- I, you know, I believe in taking advantage of opportunities and seeing, "Hey, how w- how and where can I make a positive impact?" And, um, ended up resigning from that position in 2016 when I saw a couple of pretty, um, problematic things in that election. Number one, how completely not only the, the chair, chairwoman of the Democratic Party at that time was rigging the primaries for Hillary Clinton and against any other candidate, uh, and how both in the party as well as across the mainstream media they were universally touting Hillary Clinton as the most qualified person ever to run for president in our nation's history. And, and no one qualified that with... They s- like, oh, sh-... They read off her litany of titles, but they never qualified it with, like, her actual record. What did she do in these? Yeah, she d- she has had a lot of fancy titles in her, in her life, but what did she actually do when she was, when she was in these positions? And again, as a soldier, as an American, I f- I felt it was my responsibility to try to speak the truth about her record. She is the queen of warmongers. There's never been a war that she hasn't liked and hasn't advocated for or been the architect of in all of these different positions. So I resigned as vice chair. You're not supposed to take sides, uh, as an officer of the party, uh, even though people clearly were. (laughs) I, I resigned as vice chair of the DNC. I endorsed Bernie Sanders at that time, specifically around this singular issue of, of war and peace and foreign policy, seeing how starkly different Hillary and, and Bernie were on that issue, and, and use, use that platform as an opportunity to be a voice of truth so at least Democrat voters would know who they were voting for and what kind of, of president and commander in chief they would be. Uh, if you go from that election in 2016 to, I think it was 2022 that I... Yeah, it was, I think, the summer of 2022 that I spoke at CPAC. Um, the message that I delivered there w- would have been very similar to a message I would've delivered in 2016, about freedom, about civil liberties, and about ensuring our security and keeping us out of counterproductive, costly, uh, regime change wars. Um, it's funny 'cause the, the organizers of CPAC at that time, they were too afraid to call me directly to invite me, so they went through a friend who tested the waters, like, "Would you be open?" And I was like, "Yeah, sure, I'll go talk to anybody. Why not?" I had, uh, some Republican friends of mine even, uh, after I said yes call me and say, like, "What are you doing?" Like, "I won't even go and speak (laughs) at that crowd." Uh, when I got there, the, the organizers... And I was about to go out and, and speak, they were like, "We're gonna walk you on the stage." It's like, "I can walk. I'm good." They're like, "Well, we just don't know what..." I was like, "Are you afraid people are gonna throw food at me or what?" Like, "Maybe. We really don't know." (laughs) "It's a lively crowd." Uh, but, uh, so anyway, they walked me out, and I gave my speech, and I got a standing applause and, uh, afterward went out and just was kind of walking around and talking to people. And I was really moved by, um, how many people, some strong Trump supporters, oth-... You know, wearing the red hat and everything, and others, I don't know, maybe not. I don't know. But, uh, just people saying that the message I delivered was very unifying and one that, um, resonates with everybody regardless of your political leanings, or should resonate with everyone regardless of your political leanings or affiliation.
- CWChris Williamson
And you were a Democrat still at this time, right?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah, I was. I ended up, I ended up leaving the Democrat and, uh, announcing my, my departure from the Democratic Party, uh, later that year, but, uh, it wasn't something that I, you know, even was planning at that time that I gave that speech.
- 30:24 – 35:33
Why Tulsi is Popular With Conservatives
- TGTulsi Gabbard
- CWChris Williamson
Why do you think that you are so popular with conservatives given Bernie as far left as left goes only a couple of minutes ago to CPAC standing round of applause? Wh- what is it?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
I think it's because the, um... Well, first of all, going back to 2016, after Bernie Sanders endorsed Hillary Clinton, uh, in that election, there were a lot of Bernie supporters that voted for Donald Trump.... uh, people who were driven by a more populist message of working people and peace and investing in our communities and our societies and so forth. Um, you know, I think that the, the, the Democratic Party has gone so far away from its roots, uh, to the point now where, you know, someone like me, if I say, "I love my country and we should defend the right to free speech for everyone, uh, we should uphold the Constitution, we should ensure we actually do have a true thriving democracy, that you may say something that I, I find to be abhorrent, I will defend your right to say that." Uh, these are all things that are completely unpopular in today's Democratic Party, and that is something that, that has radically changed. Uh, and I think a lot of it started in, a lot of it started, I think, in 2016 when Trump got elected. That the, the Democratic Party took a, a, a rapid shift away from, um, the party that I joined over 20 years ago. It's, it's unrecognizable today.
- CWChris Williamson
How does that explain your, uh, particular sort of, um, acceptance and, uh, attraction of conservative people?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Because the, the, the thing that, um, uh, I think the Republican Party or conservatives, maybe not the Republican Party as a whole, but I would say those who call themselves conservatives, are very much rooted in those fundamental principles of the Constitution and freedom and limited government and go live your own life, um, that once existed as kind of those traditional liberal values in the Democratic Party. And so you'll, I'll, I hear conservatives all the time saying, you know, "We miss those traditional liberal values that President John F. Kennedy held, and imagine how quickly he would be drummed out of the Democratic Party of today, uh, for, for the things that he stood for." Uh, and, and so, you know, I, I think it, it goes back to the basics, it goes back to the foundations, it goes back to the Constitution and how conservatives are very much rooted in that. Uh, whereas the Democratic Party has not only gone so far away from it, uh, you're seeing now the news of the day as, as we're sitting here is how President Biden and Kamala Harris and the Democrats are trying to reshape the third co-equal branch of government in the Supreme Court and to exert control over it.
- CWChris Williamson
What, what is that? I don't understand.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Uh, we have, you know, we have the executive branch, which is the presidency, w- which the president leads, uh, and all of the federal agencies that fall under the executive. You have the legislative branch, which is Congress, House, and the Senate. And then the third co-equal branch is the judicial system, the pinnacle of which is the Supreme Court. Uh, Democrats don't like a lot of the decisions that are coming out of this Supreme Court lately, um, one of which, by the way, was a unanimous decision, came a few months ago saying, uh, no, you are, no state is allowed to remove President Trump or any candidate from a ballot. That needs to be decided by the American people. The Democrats hated that decision. Uh, they are trying to institute term limits. Uh, I think it was, I don't know, it was 14 years or 16 years or something like that that they're putting out there. Uh, and there, there are, like, five different things that the Democrats wanna put in place that would've-
- CWChris Williamson
Crazy that a 14 or 16-year term limit, it, like, just speaks to how long these people are in. Like, "Oh my God, we can't have it only 14 years?"
- TGTulsi Gabbard
(laughs) I know.
- CWChris Williamson
"What am I going to do in my late 90s?" You know, yeah.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Well, I mean, you know, you, you have some judges who've been appointed in their late 40s. Um, the, the, I think the underlying issue here is, you know, we know that if the Supreme Court was more aligned with decisions and policies that, uh, the Democrat elite support, they would not be introducing any of these quote-unquote "reforms." And it just, it just, it, again, it goes back to the Constitution, and, and the legislative branch and executive branch trying to, uh, exert power and control over the system that, that exists to p- serve as a check on balance so no single one of these, um, overextends itself to the other.
- CWChris Williamson
And you're an Independent now?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yes.
- 35:33 – 40:48
Why Didn’t RFK Jr Get More Momentum?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
- CWChris Williamson
Why did RFK not get the momentum that he should've done? He's a Independent, he's sort of, I'm aware that that covers a broad range of sins, but what did you make of his campaign? Why did he not catch perhaps the winds that people were thinking he might do?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Ah, I think there's probably a lot, I think there's a lot of reasons that go into it. The fact that he started running for president in the Democratic primary, um... I mean, he is, he is, I don't know actually if he still calls himself a Democrat or not. I actually don't know that. I know he's running as an Independent, uh, but, like, Bernie is an Independent who ran as a Democrat, so whatever. These are labels. But, uh, you know, he, he switched strategies pretty late in the game, uh, number one. Number two, um, the two-party system is completely bought in and trying to prevent a, a viable third party from challenging either one of them. We've seen that play out already. So in order to, um, you know, obviously we, we, we haven't seen it done successfully in our country, but in order to even have a shot at it, in my view, you would've had to start it and had a very strong strategy to do that much longer before he did-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. Mm-hmm.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... have a lot more money...You'd need a ton of money, 'cause you're not only battling the Republican Party and the Democrat Party, you're battling the entire mainstream media machine, and, um, and- and having to... Y- you gotta have the money to be able to break through all of that. Uh, it- it's... I mean, it's a- it's a huge feat and it's a-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... it's a huge task. And, uh, what to speak of getting on the ballot. Um, RFK is not on... He's not on the ballot in all 50 states.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
I don't know what his current count is, but even states that had previously accepted, uh, his signatures and have said, "Okay, you're gonna be on the ballot," he's fighting legal challenges and lawsuits in many of those states. When- when are those gonna be resolved? I do- I don't know.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, you don't have long.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
It's- it's a very tough... It's a tough situation.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, talking of those sort of swings and- and moves, it does, I think, create just confusion. You know, people like-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... an- an easy sort of simple narrative.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And to... "Why were you and what were you doing before? And what's actually going on?"
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Right. Right.
- CWChris Williamson
So, (sighs) given that you've had sort of some pretty big swings over the last decade or so, how do people know that that is coming from a place of, uh, principles and motivation and not a desire for power and just more attention?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
My- my foundation and- and principles, uh, haven't shifted. Uh, they have always been rooted, uh, um... They have always been rooted in... For me, the reason why I ran is, you know, how- how can I best be of service to- to the American people? Um, and rooted in those principles of freedom and liberty, peace and security. And, you know, my challenging even leaders of my own party... President Obama was the president. Uh, he had just gotten reelected the year that I was elected to Congress. He's the president from my home state of Hawaii originally, and, uh, you know, want... The... I think the first, the first example or, um, sign to the leaders of the Democratic Party when I was elected to Congress that I wasn't just gonna be a- a follower-
- CWChris Williamson
Toe the party line.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... toe the party line, you know, go along, get along, that whole thing, it came within the first six months of my being in Congress when President Obama, uh, said he was gonna come seek authorization from Congress to go and start a- a new regime change war in Syria. I was sitting on the Foreign Affairs Committee, and, uh, you know, did all my due diligence, and, you know, briefings and hearings and all- all of these things, and ultimately concluded that this would be a very bad idea that- that could end up in disaster, and said so publicly. I mean, this- this was why I ran for Congress, to- to actually be in a position to at least influence, impact, or make those decisions to- to prevent us from making those costly mistakes of the past that had taken the lives of people that I served with. Immediately upon... Uh, I was the first Democrat, first Democrat to speak out against President Obama's request, and within 24 hours got a call from the White House, not saying, "Hey, Tulsi, can you just explain to us, like, what's your thought process? Why are- why are you coming out in such strong opposition? What- what are we not sharing that you..." Whatever. There was none of that. It was just, "How dare you go against your president?" Period. "Why are you not a team player?" Essentially. And it was a betrayal of the party. They viewed it as a betrayal of the party and a betrayal of President Obama rather than seeing it for what it was, which was a very serious disagreement on the policy that- that he was putting forward.
- CWChris Williamson
Very tribal internally.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Very much so.
- 40:48 – 44:29
Does Tulsi Miss Being in Congress?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
- CWChris Williamson
Do you miss it?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Which part? (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
All the- the- the... Well, I don't know what the daily routine of- of- of you would've liked.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah, I- I don't- I don't miss... Uh, you know, and then this... I didn't run for reelection, um, that last year that I was in Congress. I don't miss how dysfunctional it has become, and it's gotten vastly more dysfunctional, um, you know, in- in those later years, but especially now. Even when I was there, um, you know, when I was there, I passed my first piece of legislation very quickly und- as a freshman Democrat in a Republican-controlled Congress because at that time, you could still build relationships-
- CWChris Williamson
Hm.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... and get things done, like actually solve problems. Uh, that's a rare, very rare thing to see these days.
- CWChris Williamson
Why?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Um, I think that there are many people who are just not interested in it, they're more interested in the talking point or fighting the so-called fight instead of saying, "Hey, you know, let's figure this out and- and put our heads together." Uh, there are some who are afraid of being criticized for working with someone from the other party. Uh, there- there's a lot of different factors and things that go into it.
- CWChris Williamson
Downstream from a lot of this tribalism, again, the sort of inability or unpreparedness.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
And the... At- at its core, what does it come down to? It comes down to people who are putting their own self-interest or their political interest ahead of the interest of- of the country and our... and the American people, which is really... Like, that's the whole reason why you should be there. And so for those reasons, uh, for those reasons, I don't miss it. What- what I, um... What I do miss, and there's been a- there's been a couple of situations over this past, you know, little al- almost four years since I've left, uh, the withdrawal from Afghanistan and, uh, the disastrous and tragic fires that happened in Maui, in Hawaii. Uh, in those- those two situations, as I saw either inaction or lack of true accountability, I thought, "Man, if I could only be on that Armed Services Committee questioning."... those, uh, general officers and the Secretary of Defense about all that they did wrong, uh, in that, in that withdrawal. And, and the fact that even still there hasn't been any kind of true accountability or oversight over the multiple layers of failures that occurred for, um, people who were in, um, who I served when I was in Congress for eight years in Hawaii.
- CWChris Williamson
It seems like the pace of everything is ramping up at the moment, whether it's the sort of vitriol and tribalism that's happening internally, whether it's the inflammatory rhetoric of just normal people online, whether it's the pace that memes move at. Just, just think for a second that in the last six weeks we went from hawk to a girl-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... to (laughs) to, uh-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Which there's been this weird intersection between the hawk to a girl and political memes, by the way.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh yeah.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Well, it's one and the same. Uh, straight into the Biden senile look at the debate thing, straight into Trump gets shot in the ear, straight back into, uh, JD Vance, into, uh, Biden's stepchild Kamala now as, uh, vi- like, in-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
And now, by the way, the latest one of today and yesterday is if you type in Donald Trump assassination attempt, nothing comes up in the Google algorithm.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, they put out a sta- I think they put out a statement about that. Oh, the, the AI had mislabeled something.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
God.
- CWChris Williamson
It mischaracterized, something like that.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, I don't know whether that was Gemini, uh, re-racing the Founding Fathers.
- 44:29 – 52:03
Trump’s Speech to Christians
- CWChris Williamson
There was that... Did you see Trump talking about how Christians will never have to vote again after this?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
I saw a clip. I didn't see the speech or the context, but I saw a clip.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, so there is a, a section of a Trump speech where he says, "In four years, you don't have to vote again." And many, many clips stop there.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
The next sentence is, "We'll have it fixed so good you won't have to vote again."
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, so, you know, in a world of cheap fakes and stuff like that, but it just seems to me that... Uh, on top of that as well, we also had, um... (sighs) Who was the guy that called out Elon Musk recently? It was Gavin Newsom, said that he-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Oh, right.
- CWChris Williamson
... he wanted legislation to stop AI manipulated speech going on.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, like if selective editing is able to achieve the same outcome-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... is there something that's particularly special about chopping together words that somebody did say versus actually creating from, you know, an AI GPT-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... something that somebody didn't say?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It's just, it doesn't surprise me that the general public are becoming kind of despondent. And I think one of the things that you get is not people really being convinced by any one narrative, but just sort of holding their hands up and going, "I'm, I just don't trust anything now."
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm just confused and kind of a bit nihilistic, and I, I, I'm disengaged.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And I think that you're seeing, uh, especially I know that this is the fact, um, young men, specifically Gen Z men, are more likely to say that no particular political, uh, pursuit, no particular political issue is of great importance to them than ever before.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Interesting.
- CWChris Williamson
So they're just very, very sort of stepped back. We're also, this is coinciding with a movement away from left-leaning beliefs amongst men that are Gen Z as well.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, I had, uh, the guy that did the original research on that and did the in- original analysis of all of the data, I had him, uh, come on the show. It was fascinating.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Fascinating look. But, um, yeah.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
I think, I think part... So I, I have a few thoughts on, on some of the things that you're saying. Uh, first of all, you, you, you really cannot blame people for feeling that way. I completely, completely understand it. Um, I feel that way sometimes. (laughs) And I, you know, every day is, is just, you know, having to, uh, to look at, look at all of this stuff that's going on. I think it's a positive step for people to, uh, be generally distrusting of everything that they're being, everything that's being thrown at them. I think that is actually a positive step.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Versus people blindly believing like, "Oh, I saw this on TV, therefore it must be true," even though that still happens.
- 52:03 – 1:03:20
Understanding the New TikTok Bill
- TGTulsi Gabbard
at its core, it's, it was being sold as, as a lot of things. Obviously, it passed the House and the Senate with bipartisan support. It's been signed into law by President Biden, uh, so it is now law of the land. Um, at its core, the thing that you would've only heard people like Ron Paul say, or Thomas Massie in the House of Representatives or Rand Paul in the US Senate, um, is, is actually something that even the ACLU was focused on, which is, at its core, it is an anti-free speech bill. Uh, and i- anytime you give the government the power, in this case, the President of the United States, the power to decide what platform you and I are allowed to both exercise our right to free speech on and what platforms we are allowed to, uh, gather information from, at its core, that's a violation of free speech. Um, the, the other issue that was tied to the usual, you know, the, usually the most egregious violations of our liberties occur in the name of, uh, national security, keeping us safe.
- CWChris Williamson
Patriots Act types.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Correct, and this was no different, and Ron Paul, you know, as usual was, was very, um, powerful and very correct on this and, in his statement that this was the most egregious violation of civil liberties since the Patriot Act was passed, but basically, in a nutshell, again, I didn't hear a s- uh, the proponents for this legislation naturally didn't highlight this provision that was in the bill. It's, it's a very small provision, but it basically says that the President of the United States alone has the power to designate a, uh, a, a firm or a business as being, and, and this is not the exact verbiage, but basically an agent of a foreign adversary, period. And while there are a few different examples of countries that, that they are calling out as foreign adversaries, in theory, let's say President Biden is there, Elon Musk and X are the only platform that are not playing ball with, with the White House (laughs) and, and taking their direction on who they want censored or what words or phrases or narratives they want censored, in theory, let's say President Biden says, "Okay, well, El- Elon Musk, uh, uh, is doing business with this country that we deem as a foreign adversary and has, I think..." I don't know what the percentage of the business interest was, but it was a quite low bar, "and therefore, uh, his platform needs to be shut down because I, as president, deem his association, uh, I deem him to be an agent of a foreign adversary." Period. There's no, "Well," uh, like, there, there's no, there's no way to appeal that. There's no, uh, there, there's no recourse from that for a guy like Elon Musk, for example, and, and obviously he's the most prominent example now, and something that he even spoke out about in warning about the consequences of this legislation, um-Um, a- and tho- those are the two primary, uh, major problems with that legislation that, again, go back to the fundamentals and the foundations. And very often it's like, "Oh, well, we need to protect kids," or, "We need to protect people from disinformation. We need to protect, uh, our- our security," and all of these arguments that- that were at the forefront of those who are proponents of this bill, again, from both sides. But, you know, even those who had good intentions, if you're not making those decisions that are rooted in these fundamental freedoms that make us who we are in this country and that- that- that are the pillars of- of the founding of our country, this is how we continually find ourselves in positions, just as with the Patriot Act... Again, many people with good intentions voted for that. But we find ourselves in these situations where increasingly our freedoms and liberties are taken away, and very often in the name of, "Well, we have to do this to protect-"
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
"... you," that we find ourselves in a place where we are- we are, uh, we are not in the free country, uh, that we- that we thought we had.
- CWChris Williamson
TikTok's very dangerous, I think, and a lot of people have problems with it. I'm not a fan of it. I think that it's almost certainly trying to craft a narrative that makes people in the West hate the West. I know that there is a Chinese sort of kale version of it that's restricted at certain times-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... and there's sorts of stuff that's pushed through the algorithm as it's shown in the same kind of a way. So given the fact that you're stuck between a rock and a hard place, which is we have foreign power that definitely does not have the West's interests at heart owning the fastest-growing social media, which most young people use and get their news from and get their insights from and all of the rest of it, data, facial mapping, microexpression detection to really, really ramp up the limbic hijack of how this algorithm works. You have all of that, which presumably you're not that m- much of a fan of, like, in and of itself, even though you might support it principally. And then you have the other side, which is this bill, which contravenes and sets precedents that you're worried about. What do you, like how-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
I choose freedom. I choose freedom. I- i- because then where do you draw the line? If- if you have a government that says, "You are only allowed to get information from these sources and not any other sources," then they- they are taking away our- our free will and our own faculty to get information for ourselves and make decisions for ourselves. So in this, you know, this- this environment of information warfare, uh, I mean, the answer is to, you know, the answer to, uh, speech in situations that you don't like is always more speech.
- CWChris Williamson
It seems like it-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Any time, any time, e- because, okay, well, today they're talking about TikTok in China.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
What is it gonna be tomorrow? What country or what entity or what platform or what business is it going to be tomorrow?
- CWChris Williamson
I understand how it's a- a difficult precedent. I think that we have, uh, such a unique pipeline at the moment of saying that, you know, countering bad speech with good speech is a good idea. But when particular types of speech get algorithmically suppressed, that leads to a world in which the good speech is essentially nonexistent speech.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Which again goes back to, okay, so we have X as the one social media platform that is not playing that game. Uh, this legislation has put the power into the hands of the president to essentially be able to take that platform away.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. I- I-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
So- so we assume, and this- this is the danger, and this is the difference between a free society versus an authoritarian society, is when you put the- this kind of power into the hands of government, you would hope that they would do the right thing. But i- in- in every situation that we've seen, there are people in positions of power in our own government here in the United States who choose to do the wrong thing and weaponize those, uh, authorities that have been put into law to serve their own political interests, to serve their own financial interests, to serve their own interests of remaining in power-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... and ultimately in doing so, taking away our freedom.
- CWChris Williamson
What would you do? Let's say that this didn't get passed, repealed, whatever. Um, there are a lot of people that have concerns about TikTok, especially parents-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... and what it's doing to their kids. What would you suggest? Have you- have you got any suggestions? Okay, we don't do this.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
People do have t- or they're going to be exposed to it. I think that the comparison with X is kind of fair, but on the other side, anybody that's looked at X and looked at TikTok knows one of them is way harder to swipe off, and it's TikTok. It's this permanent, endless feed-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... of stuff, and it's-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... all designed. So what-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
And- and that's where, uh, and this is- and this is one where I think there- there was and there still is, there- there should be opportunity, uh, to get bipartisan support in dealing with, um, all of these different social media companies that ultimately are all finding ways to profit off of our attention, and- and selling our attention and interest to- to improve their bottom line, uh, and kids often... And, you know, there have been multiple studies done about how this is affecting them. The Social Dilemma documentary was very, very powerful. Uh, and- and so I- I think there is an opportunity to look there, especially as we look at how these- how these algorithms and these platforms are affecting young people and kids, um, to- to... I- I don't know what exactly that looks like in the end, but that's a very real conversation I think that can and should be had, uh, both from- from, uh, the standpoint of how this impacts kids-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- 1:03:20 – 1:08:35
The Effectiveness of X for Breaking News
- CWChris Williamson
former president got shot in the head only-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Oh my God.
- CWChris Williamson
... three weeks ago, shot in the head by an actual gun with an actual bullet in it. Um, X during that time was, it was the first time, you know, uh, y- the town square, and it's very important for people to have this opportunity and free speech and blah, blah, and I was like, "Ah, yeah, I know, but, you know, there's other areas that you can get your information." And that was one day where I thought, "Oh, this serves the most unique purpose-"
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"... because I wasn't going to Instagram, I wasn't going to Facebook, I wasn't gonna get it on Threads, I wasn't gonna get it on TikTok." I was, for eight hours, checking every 20 minutes on X-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... to find out what had happened, and that was the place that I went, and I went, "Oh, okay."
- TGTulsi Gabbard
You were both (laughs) -
- CWChris Williamson
That's, that, it- it serves a very unique purpose-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... in that way.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
A- and even in- in this specific example, uh, that was where I first saw and learned about it, and it came from videos that, you know, iPhone videos that people were posting, um, and seeing how that information was- was, um, relayed in real time, and how different it was from the headlines, the very first headlines that we saw coming out of, you know, CNN, MSNBC, even AP, and a lot of these mainstream news outlets. You know, it was- it was so stark to see the difference between s- like, clearly, if you have- if you have heard, uh, shots fired before, like, I know that sound, and as soon as I saw a video with- with sound, was like, "Oh, he- he, there's multiple shots fired."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
And then to- to flip over to CNN and be like, "President Trump fell to the ground, and, uh, popping sounds were heard." It- it took several hours-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... before they would even issue one headline that said, you know, there was an assassination attempt, or even just that there were shots fired at a Trump rally.
- CWChris Williamson
What's the, uh, so I understand that- that- that was the headline. Some people would say the prudence during a time when you're uncertain, not wanting to cause too much public panic, all the rest of it, would maybe be a- a good strategy. What is the...
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Why would they do that?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, what's the straw man case for, or what's the nefarious case for why they would-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Trying to make Trump look silly at a time where the- the Fox News had been making Biden look silly for falling down-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, I see.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... on a stage.
- CWChris Williamson
I see, I see.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
And- and drawing-
- CWChris Williamson
I see.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... some kind of parallel to make Trump look weak.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Uh, even-
- CWChris Williamson
But it's so short-sighted. I mean-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
I agree.
- 1:08:35 – 1:15:10
Conspiracy Theories Around the Trump Shooting
- CWChris Williamson
mad at me enough already. So, uh, about a third of Democrats did or still do believe that this was staged, that it was kind of a false flag-type event in order to bolster Trump's, uh, machismo and his positive s- standing with the electorate and everybody that got to see that.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
One of the, uh, ironic things, a more critical person than me might say, is, odd for people on the right to have a problem with knee-jerk conspiracy theories around presidential assassinations, because there has been a little bit of a culture, some would say, over large events like that, maybe being knee-jerked by people on the right to say, "Well, how do we know that this was actually the case?" And so on and so forth. So the pearl clutching that I saw, "How could you? He was shot in the ear by a crazy incel with a gun. How could you say that?" I thought, hey, look, I don't think that that should ever be the thing that's said, but it does feel a little bit rich coming from the side that quite often is a little bit fast and loose with throwing conspiracy theories out, whether it's the basement of a pizza company that's holding children hostage or, you know, pick your favorite-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... one of choice. Um, it did seem a little... I found that interesting, the sort of like, "Ah," and you go, "Uh, I think maybe we've switched directions."
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah, I- I- I under-, I understand the point. The- the- the exception I would make to that is, um, you know, one turn of a head and we would be talking about the now deceased President Trump.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. It's as close as you can get.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
And, and the seriousness, the seriousness of what obviously played out.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh yeah, I mean, it, it was-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
And that, that, that's, you know, and, and I get it. Yeah, there, there are theories about everything under the sun these days. Uh, this, this one is one that I believe, you know-
- CWChris Williamson
Sufficiently cut and dry that-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Well, it's sufficiently cut and dry, but also is one, and, and, you know, you, you, you heard, um, people from across the spectrum and Democrats and Republicans talking about the seriousness of this, and, you know, that, that's a whole other conversation about people who are increasing, um, i- increasingly divisive and violent rhetoric now, saying there's no place for political violence.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
And, and so, that's a, that's a whole other thing, but-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. So sorry-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... in these moments, even if this, I mean, look, if this had happened to President Biden, there should have been the same immediate response-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... of, of recognizing the seriousness of, of what had, had occurred.
- CWChris Williamson
Thoughts and prayers for literally Hitler is an interesting juxtaposition that-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
That, (laughs) that is an interesting point. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Thoughts and prayers for literally today-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
I hadn't thought of that.
- CWChris Williamson
... for literally Hitler yesterday.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
For the guy that they called Hitler yesterday.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
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- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... maybe an inch to the left? Because that would have been the most, by far the best videoed assassination in history, but there would, we would, there's never been any, uh-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- 1:15:10 – 1:24:56
The Left’s Relationship With God & Religion
- CWChris Williamson
else that was going on?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Certainly, uh, an interesting angle, I think, to the political discourse at the moment is the strained relationship that people on the left have with God and faith.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
And this almost antagonistic relationship, uh, with, uh, religion and belief-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... but certain religions.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Certain religions.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, what do you make of that? How do you sort of see?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
I have a whole chapter in my book, uh, on this exactly. Um, and, and in, in that, you know, I talk about how, and refer to once again, the, the history of the Democratic Party, and how, uh, it, it really has grown as of late, where it was once a party that, that there was no aversion to mention of God. There was, it was, it was a, it was, and this was the party that I joined, it was a more inclusive party, it welcomed people from all different religious backgrounds and faiths, and different beliefs. Um, to now fast-forward to, and, and it was something that happened over time. I mean, Jimmy Carter was an evangelical Christian, and even when he was elected president, there were some people around him who were just like, "Oh, I don't know if this is, like, too much." And this, this is something that has increased over time to where in the last Democratic Convention that was held, obviously it was held virtually, uh, during the whole COVID thing, uh, but even, um, saying the Pledge of Allegiance, they made a big show of eliminating-
- CWChris Williamson
Hm.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... uh, saying, "One nation," awkward silence, refused to say, "Under God."
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, wow, I didn't know that.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Even as they said the Pledge of Allegiance-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, interesting.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
... over Zoom. Um, so, you know, seeing, seeing, uh, how today's Democratic Party, uh, is, you know, they, they are targeting Catholics and Christians primarily, um, trying to eliminate, like, Go- God really, any mention of God from, from every facet of public life. You had Kamala Harris when she was a senator on the Judiciary Committee, uh, going after and attacking and ultimately opposing a nominee for a judgeship specifically because he was an observant and devout Catholic, and a member of the Knights of Columbus. Uh, you-
- CWChris Williamson
The fuck is that?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
The Knights of Columbus?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, what is that?
- TGTulsi Gabbard
It is, um, it is an all-male organization, uh, I don't think it's like, it's not gover- I don't know if it's governed by the Catholic Church, but it is a Catholic organization.
- CWChris Williamson
Knights of Columbus, god, that sounds cool.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
And, uh, (laughs) it does sound cool. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Way cooler than me and my friends.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
But it, it's, it's a community, it's a community-like, service-oriented organization. They, you know, they go and do good things in, in the community essentially, but, but it is centered around a very, um, a, a Catholic system of beliefs.
- CWChris Williamson
Should give it a less intimidating name. It sounds masonic and dangerous-
- TGTulsi Gabbard
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... and, you know, spooky.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Um, they did the same thing with Amy Coney Barrett, who's now on the Supreme Court, uh, with, uh, now, um, since passed away, but Senator Dianne Feinstein warned against her when she went for confirmation before the same judiciary committee saying, "You know, I'm concerned, the dogma lives loudly within you." All of these things going against our Constitution which says, "There shall be no religious test to serve in any public office."
- CWChris Williamson
Hm.
- TGTulsi Gabbard
Period. Um, and, uh, it, it's just, it just, it, it unfortunately, um, it, it goes against kind of the whole concept of freedom of religion.
- 1:24:56 – 1:32:08
Is Politics Salvageable?
- CWChris Williamson
it oddly actually quite reassuring that the bar is set so low to kind of clean house.
Episode duration: 1:55:42
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