The Rise of History’s Greatest Emperor: An Untold Story - Alex Petkas

1. 0:00 – 5:18

   Why Roman History Still Matters Today

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      Why is learning about Roman history useful or instructive at helping us in the modern world? Why should anybody care?

   2. APAlex Petkas0:08

      I think that-- So when I was starting my podcast, uh, I'd, I'd been doing it for a couple of months with a kind of hunch on this question, and I wasn't really able to articulate it to my satisfaction. Um, but it-- A friend of mine a few months in recommended that I read this book by Nietzsche, one of his early books that, um... and I'd read some Nietzsche before. It's called On the Advantage and Disadvantage of History for Life. And Nietzsche talks in there about how history can sort of drain the life out of you and turn you into a kind of crippled, um, you know, shell of a person. It can kind of, uh, get you in this state where you question all of your decisions. Uh, it can kind of overload you with knowledge and cause you to retreat into the, the cloister or the library or, you know, be a kind of, uh, opiate for a life that is not fulfilling. Um, but he says that, and, and he quotes Goethe at the beginning of that, that book, that something like, uh, Goethe said, "I hate all knowledge that does not quicken and enliven me." Like, away with it. And, and history can be very quickening and enlivening, and the way that Nietzsche frames it is, um, the most, like, enlivening approach to history is embodied by one of his favorite authors, Plutarch, this, this great ancient philosopher who was also one of history's most widely read and entertaining biographers. And, um, and Plutarch embodies this mode of reading history or mode of, like, approaching any, any number of subjects really, not, like, not just history, kings, and battles, but, like, art history or, or, like, engineering, um, statuary, and he calls it monumental, the monumental approach to history, where you're looking not so much for precise facts, um, although the facts kind of matter for the story. You're looking for examples of greatness. You're-- And you're looking for those examples, and this is me interpreting Nietzsche a little bit, but I, I think of history as a kind of, uh, source for finding your true self, for, like, y-you're kind of looking for yourself. You're looking for somebody who's trying to do something, um, that is the-- that represents a version of the greatest thing that you could do with your own life, and so it's about, like, finding resonance for, uh, for achievement. And I, I think this is what the greats tend to get out of history. There's a lot of stories of this happening. Uh, Julius Caesar and the statue of Alexander is a famous one. So that's what I look to history for, and it's where I've gotten a lot of my own inspiration. Um, a-and I, I think it's about, um, ul-ultimately about, like, emulation, uh, imitation.

   3. CWChris Williamson3:26

      Mm-hmm.

   4. APAlex Petkas3:27

      And there's, there's a lot of philosophy around this, so we could dig, dig into a little deeper.

   5. CWChris Williamson3:31

      Isn't it crazy that we think about history as being one th- or at least the uninformed amongst us think about history as being one thing? But I found out recently that Ancient Egypt had their own Egyptologists-

   6. APAlex Petkas3:44

      Mm.

   7. CWChris Williamson3:44

      Because Egypt was so old-

   8. APAlex Petkas3:46

      Yeah

   9. CWChris Williamson3:47

      ... that 2500 BC was studying 5000 BC.

   10. APAlex Petkas3:52

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson3:53

       So the same thing, that people of history were learning from people from their history.

   12. APAlex Petkas3:58

       Yeah. And, uh, [chuckles] I, uh, I studied for a little while with this great scholar when I was in grad school, and he said, um, he, he was a specialist in the late Roman world, like, um, fourth century AD, and it's, uh, he would always say, you know, "Late antiquity is a very old world." And, and it is because they have been, they are f- uh, in the, in the fourth century AD, they're as far away from Homer as we are from Charlemagne. You know? It's crazy to think. I mean, and the world hasn't changed as much [chuckles] for them as it has for us since that, that time period. But even Plutarch, who's a kind of model for, for so many things for me, he's, he's this Greek philosopher in, living in the Roman Empire in the reign of, um, Hadrian, Trajan, so, you know, Roman Peace about 100 AD is, like, his, you know, apogee. He's studying and doing the biographies of figures that lived, um, 500, 700, down to around 100 to 200 years before him, so it's all really old. And they, they already kind of have this deep conception of, um, what history is, what, what it's for, and, and, uh, and a sense of tradition. And, like, you know, I think we, we, we can learn a lot from the way that they approach their own history, which is of-often very different from the way that we approach them or we approach our own history.

   13. CWChris Williamson5:17

       Mm.

2. 5:18 – 9:58

   Julius Caesar: Genius or Tyrant?

   1. CWChris Williamson5:18

      What about Julius Caesar? What can we learn about living a good life from him?

   2. APAlex Petkas5:22

      Well, to, to come back to this example that, uh, is probably my favorite story about Caesar, and it's a famous story, so pe- you know, people might have heard of it, but, uh, maybe they haven't, like, kind of grasped the true meaning of it. So Caesar is a young man in, um, sort of mid-career, early 30s. He's gotten a job as a quaestor, and, um, that's, like, for, for what... And he gets sent, sent off for his tour of duty one year to Spain, which is a Roman province, and a quaestor is like a chief of staff, the, the, the paper guy for, like, a Roman governor, um, consul or a proconsul. And at one of, one of his leisure moments-Caesar is, uh, going around with his friends in a, a temple, and the temple, it's a temple to Hercules, and a temple in antiquity is kind of like a museum. That's like where you would put great statues and art and, um, you know, dedications and, you know, gold and stuff on the walls. And he's going in there. They're, like, touring the museum, as it were, Caesar and his buddies, and, you know, his buddies kinda keep moving on, and they realize ... They look back, and Caesar is, is not with them. And, and he's, he's standing in front of a statue of Alexander the Great in this temple of Hercules. And, um, and they're like, "Caesar, what... Are you coming? What... Wait a sec. Are you crying?" 'Cause he's weeping in front of the statue of Alexander the Great, and he looks to them, and he says, "Do you not think it is a matter for tears that when Alexander was my age, he was the ruler of so many great peoples, and yet I have done nothing worthy of great renown?" And this is only one of two instances that we know of where Julius Caesar cried. Uh, the Romans weren't really into crying as much as the Greeks. I think they, they were a little bit more open. I think they were about like us. The Greeks are crying all the time. I mean, if you read Homer, you know, Achilles is, you know, bawling and throwing ash on himself when his buddy Patroclus dies in the Trojan War. Um, then in The Odyssey, it's like, it's like every single time somebody mentions the word Troy, like, everybody just bursts out in tears. And, you know, his family's always crying for him 'cause they don't know where he's, where he is, and Odysseus is always crying about everything. But the, the Romans were a little bit more restrained. So, so I think for, for Julius Caesar to cry there, it, it's ... Something happened that was really significant for him. And how I read that is Caesar, I mean, he's, he's already had a pretty promising career so far. Um, some, some great stories already have happened from, from early in, in his youth. He's, uh, he's a questor, which is not nothing. Um, he's got the Roman Medal of Honor equivalent. He's the, the civic crown for risking his life to save a fellow citizen. But he's kind of looking back on his 20s, and he's thinking, "I've just been screwing around the whole time. This is what I have to do." He's, he's like, he's realizing in this moment what, what his destiny is. Or, or if you wanna not use the word destiny, he's realizing, like, what he should be doing, and, and that's the moment where it, it kind of hits him. It's painful to realize that you haven't been living the life to the f- to the full extent of what you should be doing and are capable of doing.

   3. CWChris Williamson9:00

      Mm.

   4. APAlex Petkas9:00

      And I think that's a, that's a really powerful moment for, um ... And, and, and it kind of, like, encapsulates how ... This is what, why I think it's, uh, resonates with me so much. That's how we need to be approaching history. That's how we need to be approaching the greats. Like we're ... You, you need to be looking for that moment of resonance with somebody that just, like, cracks you open and you're like, "Ah, I realize it now." Personally, I don't have that with Julius Caesar himself. You know, I'm not trying to do the Julius Caesar thing. And it's not every Roman who's great who had that kind of thing with Alexander the Great. I mean, that, that says a lot about a man, that he really sees himself as, like, somebody who needs to emulate Alexander. Um, but, but do ... You know, you can definitely learn from that lesson of, like, trying to find that, that unique resonance with somebody who kind of tells you what you're supposed to be like. And I think that Caesar had this, like, depth to him, uh, that, that, uh, that illus- illustrates also.

3. 9:58 – 25:48

   The Origins of Caesar’s Ruthless Ambition

   1. CWChris Williamson9:58

      What does that tell us about Caesar's ambition, level of ambition?

   2. APAlex Petkas10:02

      Yeah. Well, off the, off the charts, for sure. But I think that you can also understand a lot about Caesar's ambition from looking earlier in his childhood. So, um, and, and there's a great story on this, but I kinda, kinda give the context, like l- laying out, um, Caesar's world. So he grows up in Rome in ... And he's from this great family, you know, on the one hand. So he's got on his mom's side, the, the, the Anci, Marci, go back to the King Ancus Marcius. It's the Marci family. They go back to King Ancus Marcius, who's this, this quasi-mythical Roman king from the 6th century BC, you know? 500 years of history on his mom's side. And then on his dad's side, they're, they're the Julius clan, and they go all the way back to the mythic founder of Rome, Aeneas, who was the son of Venus [laughs] and a mortal. And so they ... You know, 1,200 years on that side. So they've got some real blue blood, but they're kind of ... They haven't really accomplished a lot in the past two generations. They're not one of the, like, power elite families, um, uh, like the Metelli or the Cornelii. There's, there's, like, other families that are a lot more prominent than the Julius family. And they, they live in a kinda seedy part of Rome, the Subura, and he grows up in this kinda dirty part of town. I mean, I know you worked in the kind of event and the, the nightclub world. Like, Caesar would've been, like, a kid hanging out in the street playing dice with his buddies outside of, outside of a bar. The, the Subura was a kind of r- place that you, you didn't really wanna live if you had a better option, but, you know, every young aristocrat on a summer night liked to go visit. There's, like, brothels. And, and so he's, uh, in contact with the, the, the underbelly of Rome, and his family has, is aligned onWell, what you call the Roman left, uh, of politics, there's, there's two main, you can call them factions or kind of political styles, but there's two kind of main poles in Roman politics. And, um, on the one hand, there are the optimates, the, the kind of oligarchic or aristocratic faction, um, who stand for the ancient prerogatives of the Senate and the, you know, the tradition. They, they tend to monopolize the priesthoods. They're all about what family are you from, who are you marrying, and, uh, so-and-so's great-great-grandfather was a consul, who are you? That whole attitude. And they're, they're, they're very much for the status quo. And on the other hand, you have the populists who are about things like land reform, redistributing public lands. Uh, they're really into, uh, merit and promoting talented outsiders. And, and Caesar has really strong connections there because his, um, his aunt is married to one of the greatest populist figureheads in Roman history, this guy Gaius Marius, who was an outsider himself to the Roman power elite, but kind of forced his way in by talents. He wins a number of wars for them. And, um, and so he, he grows up with Gaius Marius as his uncle. Uh, and Marius, you know, made a big fortune in his career, like from starting very low, and then he kind of married into respectability, which Caesar's family represents, kind of poor respectability. And, and then, um, there is, uh, Caesar loses his dad when he, uh, when he's a teenager. His dad, like, drops dead tying his shoes one day, kind of a freak thing. Uh, maybe he had a heart attack, and they... Caesar's probably early teens at that point. And his dad actually looked like he was on a good track. He, he'd been a praetor, hadn't been consul. Praetor's the second highest office, consul's the highest. And he, he died just before he got a shot to run for consul. Um, so Caesar, like, had a fa- father figure, but lost him. And then, um, so I, I, I imagine Gaius Marius might have been kind of like a father figure to, to Julius Caesar. I mean, we don't know a lot about that. But, um, what, what hap- what ended up happening is Caesar, um, promising young man, 16 years old, he is... He, he gets a, a great opportunity to marry the daughter of one of the most powerful men in Rome, who is Marius's colleague, his associate, this guy Cinna, who, uh, has a run for... He, he's, he's consul for, like, three years, and also a populist, also kind of against the oligarchic, uh, establishment. And right around the time that this is happening, this incredibly bloody war breaks out, civil war between the optimates and the populists. And it's very complicated. We can go into details if you want. But essentially, Marius dies toward the beginning of the war. Cinna dies a little, a little further in. And the, the optimates, led by a man named Lucius Cornelius Sulla, win this war, just, like, blood running through the, the whole, like, every valley in Italy. I mean, tens of thousands, maybe more than 100,000 Roman citizens, Roman allies killed. It's, it's just horrific. And it's, it's probably worse than, than the civil war that he ends up fighting later in his life. But, um, so Caesar is married to Cinna's daughter. And when Sulla comes, like, marches into Rome after winning the civil war, he was, you know, came, like, invaded Italy from a foreign campaign. He comes into Rome, and he gets elected dictator. He kind of forces himself to be elected dictator, which is, like, a temporary office at Rome. And he's, uh, he's kind of mopping up. He, um, does famously the, this campaign called the Proscriptions, which is basically a purge of all of his enemies. It's never been done in Roman history. They'd never had a civil war before. For 400 years, they'd had civic, more, more or less civic concord. And, um, there'd been some incidents, uh, in the previous generation, but nothing like this. Sulla posts the names of all the people from the leadership classes of Rome, the rich, some of the richest men, the most influential, well-connected, grand family men from the populist faction that he blames for, um, picking this fight and starting the war. And if your name is on that list in the Proscriptions, you know, he posts them in the Senate, you have a bounty on your head, and your entire estate is confiscated, state property now. And there's more than 1,000 names that end up getting put up in those Proscription lists. So heads roll. People are tossing heads in front of the feet of Sulla as he's sitting in his, like, consular throne. Uh, they're collecting their reward. Um, it's a, it's just this reign of terror for a few months. And Sulla is also calling other kinds of shots. I mean, he's rewriting the Constitution as a dictator. He's trying to make sure that the populists could just keep their head underwater for generations, that nothing like this war could ever happen again because his enemies and the kind of principles that they represent will just be so hamstrung and handcuffed. But, uh, one of the things that he does is he approaches younger men in Rome and kinda tests their loyalty by making them get divorces.Pompey is another promising young man around this time who ends up being Caesar's friend and rival. He's a few years older, and he goes to Pompey, Sulla, Sulla, and he says, "Pompey, you know, you've been a loyal servant, uh, you brought me a legion in the civil war, you, you, you sided with me early. Uh, I'm very grateful for that, but you know what? You're married to the wrong woman. I have a better one for you." And Pompey says, "Yes, sir." And he, and he divorces his, his former wife, and he marries whoever Sulla picks for him. And then Sulla, uh, re-remember this is a guy who... Okay, a, a subordinate of Sulla, a friend of his, wanted to run for consul after Sulla becomes the dictator. You know, there's still elections going on. There's still offices, um, that need filling. This guy comes to Sulla and he says, "Hey, Sulla, I wanna, you know, we won the war. I, I, I wanna run for consul." And Sulla's like, "Um, you know, you haven't even been praetor. This, this would b- this would be a bad look. I, I don't think this is your year. Uh, you should stand down." And the guy says, "Thank you for your advice. Uh, I'm, I'm gonna run anyway." And so one day, Sulla is sitting in, uh, in his, like, one of his curule chairs there in one of the public buildings, looking out over the forum, and watches as the men that he ordered to do the deed go up to this guy and murder him in broad daylight in the forum. Because he, he defied Sulla, and he tried to, you know, run for office when Sulla said no. So this is the kinda guy you're dealing with. Now, Sulla comes to Caesar. Caesar's 18 years old, and he says, "Caesar, you're married to the daughter of, uh, one of my late worst enemies, Cinna." Uh, he's, you know... And you can understand his pers-perspective. You know, Cinna was a symbol of everything that Sulla wanted to crush. And, um, and he says, uh, "You need to divorce her." And Caesar says, you know, "Thank you very much for your advice. Um, you know, go screw yourself." And he, and he, he skips town.

   3. SPSpeaker20:19

      [laughs]

   4. APAlex Petkas20:19

      He says no. And so, and so Caesar is running, uh, through the mountains of central Italy. He's on the run. Sulla's got guys hunting him down. Uh, this goes on for several weeks. Caesar gets dysentery and, you know, Oregon Trail style, and he just, uh... He gets caught, and manages to bribe the people who catch him to not bring him back to Sulla, but to bring him back to his, his family, to, like, his relatives and friends. And then they go and they, they go and plead with the dictator. "Sulla, geez, you know, uh, this was really out of line on the part of Caesar. He's a young hothead, you understand. Um, you know, he'll be good. We'll, we'll make sure that he behaves himself. He's only a kid. Uh, don't worry. Please, can you please spare him?" You know, 'cause Sulla wants to execute him, obviously. I mean, he's got an image to uphold, right? Like... And Sulla relents, and he says, "Very well, but you are fools if you don't see Minimus Marius in that boy." And so, uh, C-Caesar gets off. Now, why did he do that? Like, what does that say about him and, and what he's got in mind for his future? All right. One explanation is Caesar's a showman. He's a natural showman. He knows if he can defy the dictator and get away with it, people are gonna be talking about this for his entire life. They're gonna talk about it all around town. And sure enough, you know, we're still talking about it [laughs] today. Like, it worked as a, as a kind of PR stunt. On the other hand, he knows that, um, S- this girl is, is a symbol of, of his, um, all of his populist connections that have mostly been decapitated.

   5. SPSpeaker22:14

      Mm.

   6. APAlex Petkas22:14

      Like, everything that Caesar had, had, like, aspired to. You know, think, you think as a teenager, you know, you got a great career ahead of you. You know, you're, you know the top guys in this party. Like, the, the trajectory's clear, and it's all just been, like, liquidated, turned to blood, and she's, like, one of the last living symbols of that. And he knows that if he, um... He knows the kind of, like... He's kind of calling his shot in a way. He's, he, he's, he's seeing a f- a career for himself on the populist side, on the kind of, uh, revolutionary, if you will, side of Roman politics. And he's sort of building-

   7. SPSpeaker22:52

      Yeah

   8. APAlex Petkas22:52

      ... building a career with this clairvoyance about where he's headed for the rest of his life, already there at age 18.

   9. SPSpeaker22:58

      Mm.

   10. APAlex Petkas22:59

       And I think that one final piece of this is it had a lot to do with just family, you know, and who he was, and he didn't wanna be pushed around by anybody, and he was willing to die rather than to let that happen. And the fact that he... I think one of the s- the, the final things that this illustrates about Caesar is Caesar was, uh, for all that you could criticize about the guy, he was incredibly loyal to the people that, um, that were close to him, to his friends, loyal to a fault. And he was loyal to this, to this wife, uh, Cornelia, uh, all the way up to her death. Uh, I, and I can't prove this, and I wouldn't even try, but Caesar was famously, uh, good with the ladies and, uh, you know, slept with a lot of senators' wives and so forth [laughs] and had a lot of girlfriends on the side. But we don't know of any specific cases where he did that with, while he was married to his first wife, Cornelia, and she ends up being the, the mother of his only daughter, uh, his only chi- child up until the very end, Julia. Uh, but I think that it was, it, it was something about proving loyalty to that woman. But I think you see in that, you know, to answer your question about, you know, what are his ambitions like, they're grand already. You can see that in, in him as a young man. He, like, he knows he's destined for, for something big. He's-Smart, talented, handsome, and so forth. Um, and, uh, and he was just gonna, he was gonna ride that horse as long as he could.

   11. CWChris Williamson24:29

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4. 25:48 – 29:25

   The Pirate Story That Defined Caesar

   1. CWChris Williamson25:48

      What was that story about Caesar and the pirates? That was when he was young, right?

   2. APAlex Petkas25:51

      Yeah, yeah, that's another great story. Another, another kind of like flash of his brilliance. So he's, uh, he's off cavorting in Asia, uh, Asia Minor as a young man, and, um, this is before Pompey cleans up the seas for the pirates. And so he gets, um, captured by pirates, as one does during those times. And he, um, I think he's like on a study trip actually, uh, at the time, so it's, it's, he's very young, like 20, 23. And the, um, the pirates want to ransom him. And, uh, Caesar says, "What you're asking is insulting. Like, you're asking 20 million sisterces. You need to double it. Like, you don't know what you've got on your hands here." [laughs] Uh, because I think partly because to kind of troll them, partly because he is, uh, he knows that if he gets ransomed for more money, it's gonna make a better story, and people are gonna think more of him. 'Cause like, you know, the Greek word for honor is, um, is time. It means price. You know, it's, it's the pri- it's literally the price that you, your comrades would be willing to ransom you for if you got captured.

   3. CWChris Williamson27:08

      [laughs]

   4. APAlex Petkas27:09

      Like, it's, it's quantifiable. It's very quantifi- like in Homer, you know, uh, it's, we think of honor as this abstract thing, but it's like, how much are you really worth? You know, you could put a number on that. So Caesar kind of gets that.

   5. CWChris Williamson27:21

      He basically bids on his own auction.

   6. APAlex Petkas27:23

      Yeah. Right. [laughs] And, and, uh, and the funny thing about that story is, uh, well, there's a lot of funny things, but, you know, while he's there with the pirates, Plutarch, um, who's his greatest biographer, uh, says, uh, you know, Caesar would sort of, um, he was, he would joke around with them, and he would, uh, write compositions. He's like, you know, rocking around in the hole there, writing speeches, and he would, he would declaim them in front of the pirates, and he'd make them laugh and cry, and then he would just say, "You people have no taste. I can't believe that I'm, I'm hanging out with you." [laughs] And, and they would say, "Oh, Caesar." And then he said, "You know, someday, uh, I'm gonna come back after, after you ransom me, and I'm going to execute every single one of you." And they said, "Oh, [laughs] Caesar's kid. We love this kid. Pour him another drink," you know. And then that's exactly what he does, right? He gets ransomed and, um, and he, uh, the, the local governor that, um, that is responsible for that part of the sea is, um, uh, I, I think he-- no, he, he raises a, a fleet with his own funds, and he goes, and he, you know, he, he knows where these guys hide out, their little cove, and he captures the pirates, and he brings them to the governor, and the governor is sort of dawdling. He doesn't really have a great plan for these pirates, and so he, Caesar goes and he crucifies all of them, uh, to make a statement. But, you know, because they were such a kindly host to them, he does them the, the courtesy of having their throat slit before they get crucified, so they don't, you know, have to be there in agony for several days dying.

   7. CWChris Williamson29:04

      Mm, mm.

   8. APAlex Petkas29:04

      He gives them a short death. So he, no, I think it, you know, it's perfect combination of his, his winning charm, his deep sense for the political stakes of every single thing that he does, you know, raising his price, making a scene, and making a statement by, you know, fulfilling his promise to, in, in the most cold-blooded way

5. 29:25 – 34:02

   How Caesar Won the the People of Rome

   1. APAlex Petkas29:25

      possible.

   2. CWChris Williamson29:25

      Why did he become so popular? What was, what were the levers that he was pulling on?

   3. APAlex Petkas29:30

      Well, before he becomes a commander, at least, Caesar is, uh, just a really stylish guy. He, he has a flair for fashion. You know, he wears his, his toga a little differently than, than everybody else. It's a little looser. Uh, you know, it's, it's kind of like, you know, when I was in high school, a lot, a lot of kids would like let their pants sag down. It was like the cool look. Yeah, well, Caesar's doing that. Like, let's, let's let our toga sag a little bit. Uh, but it, but it was, it was like, you know, it was stylish and classy and, and kind of, um... And, and, you know, the older men at Rome would say, "Oh, that's effeminate." Um, but Caesar knew that it would draw, draw attention, that he could pull it off. And, um, one of the ways that he attracts attention is by prosecuting, uh, corrupt governors when he's just in his 20s. You know, he, he does these sort of, um, sort of publicity stunt DA, like young DA prosecuting the, um-Whatever, city councilman. And he, he loses, I think most of these, but he makes a statement of, of what he stands for. And, and I think he knows from a very early age that he's kind of an anti-establishment figure. Sulla has d- dies soon after he becomes a dictator. And, and like in his youth, um, Sulla basically firmly established the Optimate oligarchy, and everybody in power now in Rome was like a buddy of Sulla, and they have no serious challengers. They're corrupt, they're fat, they're slow, uh, they're plundering the provincials, and Caesar kind of takes a stand for justice, like throughout his early career. And, um, in one of these, [chuckles] one of these c- cases, he, um... There was a, there was a riot 30 years earlier. This is funny. And, um, and, and some populist leaders, you know, people from Caesar's faction got murdered. Saturninus was the, the most... Well, there was a riot in the Forum, and then they, they a- arrested the guys, they put them in the Senate house, and then pe- people snuck up to the roof in the night. They, they removed the, the roof tiles, and they like hurled these like roof tiles down on, uh, Saturninus and his buddies, and they, they killed them. So, uh, there was some violence in the streets in Rome that the generation before. And so Caesar picks one of the last surviving men to have been vaguely implicated in this riot as somebody with, you know, blood on his hands metaphorically for the, for the death of Saturninus and his associates. Um, and the guy is like this emaciated old, old gentleman, um, Rubrius. And he says, you know, uh, "We're gonna, we're gonna hold you responsible for your crimes 30 years ago. Like Rome is, Rome is a place of justice." And, uh, they basically, you know, long story short, he, they get, they get him convicted, and in the special court that they call, the punishment is crucifixion. Like, so they're going to publicly execute this like 80-year-old man who probably doesn't even know what day it is. And there's some last-minute, uh, political shenanigans by Rubrius' friends. They like raise this flag, and they, you know... Oh, they, this, there's a kind of like political chicanery where you can say, "The omens are bad," and, and it kind of calls off the whole thing. And Caesar, I think, kind of expected them to do that. Um, but, uh, it, the, the point was about the statement, you know, that oligarchs, aristocrats in the establishment can't get away with murder anymore. Not in this town anymore. I think that was a big piece of why he was popular before he ever led an army. Now, when he started leading armies, that's a whole different story. Like he was a master at getting, um, at, at like winning the respect of his soldiers. He was always fighting in the front lines. There's many stories about this, um, the incredible loyalty that, that his soldiers in particular had for him. Um, but he, you know, he's kind of a playboy in his, in his youth, and, uh, he just was, was a fun guy to be around. He's always giving gifts. He's, um, he's in debt all the time up to his ears, and he f- somehow always finds a way to pay off his creditors. Um, uh, he, he was just a, a really magnetic guy to be around.

6. 34:02 – 40:58

   The Strategy Behind Caesar’s Loyal Following

   1. CWChris Williamson34:02

      What was the loyalty that he generated? Just how loyal were his followers?

   2. APAlex Petkas34:07

      Well, so one instance of this is in the civil war that illustrates this is, uh, this guy Granius Petro is, um, a guy we wouldn't know his name otherwise, but he's, uh, a questor in Caesar's army and, uh, gets his, uh, ship captain, gets, gets his ship captured by Caesar's enemies in the civil war. And, um, and so he's brought aboard the ship with his fellow sailors, uh, and, and the, the enemy commander, the Optimate commander says, uh, "Granius Petro, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna be nice to you guys. Now, normally, since you, you all are traitors, what we should do is slit your throats and throw you overboard. But we're gonna be very kind. You know, Caesar's a kind man. We know he's the enemy of the state and tyrant and lawless, but we're gonna, we're gonna not let him morally outclass us. We're just gonna sell you in the slave market, all of you. Um, and hopefully, you'll get ransomed maybe. But Granius Petro, you, however, may go free." He's the, he's their leader. "And, uh... But you have to go and tell Caesar what we did here and tell him that his war effort is futile, that he should surrender to the lawful government of the Republic." And Granius Petro says, "It is the custom of Caesar's soldiers to give mercy, but not to receive it." Then he pulls out a dagger, and he stabs himself to death right in front of the, the enemy consul. That's the kind of loyalty that Caesar had. Like this guy would rather die than, you know, be ashamed by letting his enemy spare him. Um, another great instance, uh... I mean, the Caesar soldiers had this incredible endurance throughout all of his campaigns. They're willing to fight for him to the, to the death. You know, stories about soldiers getting shot in the eye, shot in the arm, shot in the leg, taking hundreds of blows, and then they don't leave the fight. They just have to be dragged away by their companions. Uh, one instance, again, later from Caesar's career, his, um, he's fighting this, this great, um, kind of trench war, siege war with, um, with Pompey. There's like a 17-mile wall that he's built around Pompey's camp to wall him into the coast in Greece, and Pompey's built another counter wall. So the, it's this dragging, dragging long siege warfare, and the supplies are getting choked. Caesar cuts off the water to Pompey. The animals are starving and dying in Pompey's camp, but Caesar's even in worse straits because they've eaten... You know, he's got to20,000, 30,000 men. They're, they're eating the, all the food in the area. They're, like, running out of food, and they're having to go and collect weeds and bake them into these horrible, disgusting cakes and just eat them. And, um, and at some point, uh, Pompey's guys haven't enough food and water personally, even though the animals are dying. They call over to Caesar's men across the wall. They say, you know, "Hey, Roman, getting hungry over there?" And, uh, Caesar's soldiers catapult over some of these horrible loaves of nasty food that they're eating just to show what they're willing to eat. They're willing to, like, starve to death before giving up the fight. And one of these, these cakes, you know, imagine like a cow patty. The, uh, one of these cakes is brought to Pompey, you know, his, his enemy, the commander, and he says, "Good God, we are fighting with beasts." [laughs] And, and, uh, and they go to Caesar and they say, "We would rather eat tree bark than surrender." Um, and how was he able to generate that?

   3. CWChris Williamson37:59

      Mm.

   4. APAlex Petkas38:00

      He fights in the front lines with them all the time. He's, he risks his life, um, right up, right up there with the centurions. He knows all the centurions in his army by name. There's, like, one centurion for every 80 men, and, uh, he's got an army of 30,000. Like, he remembers their names. He, like, takes the time to do that. He, um, he also, uh, is, he's very generous with, with gifts. And he-- what, what, what he'll do is he'll eat the same food that they eat. I don't know if he ate those cow patties, but I imagine he did because he had this habit of, like, if, if the, if the olive oil was rancid, and there was good olive oil, but the, the troops were eating the bad olive oil, he would eat the bad olive oil. If his, uh, if his troops are sleeping in the f- on the ground, if his officer corps, they're, you know, he's always going around, uh, like lightning speed, blitzing around campaigns, and often they have to stay in weird places. You know, if his officers are sleeping on the ground, he'll sleep on the ground. He'll give a good-- the one bed, uh, we'll give it to the weakest of us, which is not me, you know? Uh, so he's, he's always there with them. Um, but he's also, you know, he's very lavish with these guys, too. Like, he, h-his, his, um... What he does, he does amass a lot of money when he's conquering Gaul, for example, but it's always only to give it to his friends, to give it to the people of Rome, to do something with it, to-- it's all-- he always sees money as a tool, and, and riches as a tool, and gift as a tool, uh, to, to, to, like, win, to bind people closer to himself, 'cause this is, this is where his real power lies. And this is what, where I think, in general, real power lies.

   5. CWChris Williamson39:51

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7. 40:58 – 47:32

   Caesar & Pompey: Allies or Enemies?

   1. CWChris Williamson40:58

      What was the relationship between him and Pompey? Because you said previously they were sort of loosely affiliated, and then they do the triumvirate.

   2. APAlex Petkas41:06

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson41:06

      So instead of trying to beat them, he actually decides to do that thing with Crassus and Pompey. W- w-what's the arc of his big enemies across his life?

   4. APAlex Petkas41:17

      Yeah. So Pompey is, um, they're, they're friendly for most of their career. And, um, Pompey is a kind of moderate populist. Uh, Pompey mostly wants to, uh, in his early career, he's a, he's, fights for Sulla, but soon after Sulla dies, you know, Pompey doesn't-- he's not really into politics that much. He mostly wants to just get himself sent off as commander of Rome's armies to fight all kinds of wars, 'cause that's, I think that's his happy place.

   5. CWChris Williamson41:50

      Mm.

   6. APAlex Petkas41:50

      Pompey is, um, a excellent administrator. He's great at logistics. Uh, I think he's, he's kind of a big guy, too. And so Caesar a- helps him a lot in his early career to get these extraordinary commands, is what they call them. Like, Pompey doesn't hold office until he's 35, and usually to become consul, which is what he becomes, you would have to have, like, you know, a s- a whole sequence of offices. But Pompey's just, he's just the golden boy. Pompey is, um, he's, he's got this combination of charm, and he's got this boyish look. He's got this little quiff in his hair, and he kinda looks like Alexander, and he kinda models himself off of Alexander the Great. I mean, Caesar and Pompey both are, like, Alexander, uh, Alexander stans. And, um, but he's also got this ruthlessness to him, too. Uh, they called him The Kid Butcher when he was younger. Uh, the Romans just loved this combination of cold-blooded forcefulnessBrutality even, you know, in a controlled way, and then boyish charm, uh, which Pompey had. But the way that they really get in, um, in, i-into cahoots in the First Triumvirate is s- so even though Caesar's kind of friendly with Pompey, helps him out here and there, he's not like really tight with Pompey. Who he is tight with is Crassus, the richest man in Rome, another fascinating figure that I did a, did a biography on, The Cost of Glory. He, uh, Crassus finances Caesar's career. He's basically the one holding the note for all of Caesar's colossal political debts. Um, and it, there comes a point when Caesar is ready to run for consul that Crassus has a problem, and Pompey has a lot of problems that they can't get solved in the Senate and in politics. Pompey's just come back from this glorious Eastern campaign. He's defeated this General Mithridates. He's, uh, he's essentially conquered Judea, uh, and he's, he's defiled the temple in Jerusalem. Um, but he's come back glorious with a bunch of soldiers that need rewards. He wants to settle his soldiers. He wants the Senate to ratify all of the arrangements, the treaties that he made, you know, appointing a client king here, you know, getting a city constitution ratified there, and he's got a lotta, a lot of interest in that, like materially, you know, people, um, sending him money and promising to support him in war or politics. So Pompey has a lot of needs, and, and this, it's all getting blocked by the Senate. He's just not that great at the political game. His... And, and by this point, Pompey is sort of an outsider from the, from the optimates, from the, from the kind of establishment conservatives, um, who are blocking Pompey. They think he's getting too powerful. Caesar is nobody at this point. I mean, yeah, he's a promising young politician, but he's not, he's not like a powerful man. Uh, so we, we talk about the Triumvirate, uh, but it's, it's Caesar brokering a deal with Pompey, and then Crassus on the other hand, has some tax breaks he wants for his, uh, basically his, uh, portfolio companies who are equestrian tax collectors. And, um, they can't get it through the Senate. Both Pompey and Crassus are outsiders to the optimate establishment. The main guy who's the kind of figurehead of the, of the conservatives is this young guy Cato, who becomes, who's a Stoic, famously becomes Caesar's worst nemesis. And Caesar basically comes to these c- these two, um, big shots, the two big fish in Rome, Pompey and Crassus, richest man and then the most glorious general, and he says, "You guys hate each other. You've hated each other for a long time. You've always been trying to smile in public when you're next to each other but then stab each other in the back behind the scenes. But look, you both have needs. I can, I can, I can fix them. I can fix this. I can get your legislation passed, Pompey. I can get your legislation passed, Crassus. Support me in the consulship, and I'm gonna ask for a favor down the line. But let's not worry about that right now." And they say, "All right." And so it's basically the Triumvirate is Caesar brokering this deal between these two top guys, which is a great, that's a great strategy I think, if you're, [chuckles] if you're like down here, and there's men up here that have a need to help find the way to help them out. And, and they're... And the, the biggest thing that's blocking each of them really is each other. Like Crassus is like pushing the Senate to, to not ratify Pompey's legislation. Pompey is gonna use his clients to kind of push against Crassus, so you, making peace between the two of them. Um, and s- and it was a pretty good relationship for a long time, and, and once, once Caesar gets elected consul, his dear, dear daughter Julia, his one child, uh, up to that point, he marries her off to Pompey the Great, and he becomes Pompey's father-in-law, even though he's a younger man somewhat. And, uh, by all accounts, that marriage was not just a political marriage, but it became a very loving relationship. Um, and so, uh, you know, they had this long connection, uh, long before the civil war that made them mortal enemies of each other, which I think is what makes it kind of even more tragic and bitter.

   7. CWChris Williamson47:31

      Mm.

8. 47:32 – 55:41

   When Did Caesar and Pompey Become Enemies?

   1. CWChris Williamson47:32

      And then how do Pompey and Caesar end up at war?

   2. APAlex Petkas47:37

      Well, that's, yeah, a long story I guess. But i-in sum, when Caesar... H-how it all happens, how, how this breakdown happens is when Caesar goes off, when he finishes his consulship, he gets Pompey and Crassus to support him to have himself sent off to Gaul. So far, you know, Caesar hasn't had his Alexander moment. This is his chance to do some real world-changing conquest. And, uh, he spends the years, '59 is the First Triumvirate, so he spends the years 58 through 52 conquering Gaul. And, um, Rome controls a little strip along the coast. Gaul is France, of course. Um, but, but the Gauls, the Celts, e- uh, is the other name for them, they are not just a kind of, you know, peaceable farmer, unsuspecting society of, you know, "We just, we just wanna like live our, our peaceful lives. Why are these Romans coming and conquering us?" I mean, this is a confederation of war, like incredibly warlike tribes who have threatened Rome on many occasions. And, um, just in the previous generation, there was a great Gallic invasion that, stopped by Gaius Marius. And, um, and so the r- and the, and they, and then several centuries earlier, the, the Gauls like actually sacked the city of Rome, like taking it, the only time that ever happened up to that point.So there's a real threat there arguably, and, uh, you know, we could get into how Caesar conquered Gaul, but how Pompey and Caesar fell out with each other is, it's a long story that basically while Caesar's away, he, he's absent from the city of Rome and from Italy for, um, seven years, well, really eight years, um, uh, uh, before the conflict between them breaks out. And while he's away, Crassus dies, and Crassus was a kind of fulcrum balancing out Caesar and Pompey. Um, he get- dies on this great Persian expedition, this campaign to invade not Iran, but, uh, Iraq where the, there, the Persians were in charge. Um, so that, that was, uh, the kind of like last... You know, when you have three men, they can kind of balance each other out, but when it becomes two men, there's, there's a polarity there that can really be inflamed, and this is exactly what the establishment people see, people like Cato see. Caesar has always been a revolutionary in their opinion. He's always been trying to make a grab at supreme power. They, you know, they, they, they had their eye on him since he was, since he was a young man. Sulla was right about this kid. There's many Mariuses in him. And they, you know, Pompey has, has been an outsider, but they, they see sort of late in the game after Crassus dies that if they can kind of court Pompey into the establishment, he's always wanted their approval, you know. Pompey has always just wanted to be this glorious general welcomed by the blue bloods, the great families, and he's just never really had it. And so they see their chance, Cato and company. Like, "Let's make Pompey a respectable man. Let's make him our shield, our shield against Caesar, because Caesar's gonna come back at some point, and he's gonna come back richer and more powerful and more glorious than ever, and he's gonna just push us around in politics. And, and maybe, maybe, maybe he's gonna try to take over the thing and make himself a monarch," which I think was a self-fulfilling prophecy. Like, that wasn't really his intent at that point. But basically they say, Caesar, it's like 51 BC at this point. Caesar's been in Gaul for eight years. He's got, uh, so many well-trained legions, um, and, uh, and basically his enemies are saying, "You can't, we're not gonna let you come back except in, under circumstances where you will face accountability, prosecution potentially for all of the bad things you did in your earlier career, including when you were consul." And they basically, you know, long story short, they kind of play Pompey and Ce- they especially kind of get into Pompey's head and play him off of Caesar, uh, in this gradual shift of alliances. And importantly, importantly, Caesar's daughter Julia, Pompey's, you know, the love of Pompey's life by all accounts, she dies in childbirth in 54, and, um, that was like the link that held-

   3. CWChris Williamson52:32

      The final tether

   4. APAlex Petkas52:33

      ... the final tether-

   5. CWChris Williamson52:34

      Yeah

   6. APAlex Petkas52:34

      ... that held them together. Um, and after that, the civil war ensues.

   7. CWChris Williamson52:37

      'Cause otherwise there would've been some leverage over Caesar.

   8. APAlex Petkas52:41

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson52:41

      We have your daughter.

   10. APAlex Petkas52:43

       Oh, yeah. I, I hadn't thought about that. But I, I think they couldn't have gotten Pompey's head, because, you know, they would've had a, [laughs] Caesar's grandson, Pompey's son would've, would've bound them together.

   11. CWChris Williamson52:53

       Hmm.

   12. APAlex Petkas52:53

       It was a boy that was born, uh, that died soon after his mother died. Um, so I, I, I think that it, it wasn't an, an obvious fit for Pompey to be, um, their shield, their man. He'd always been an outsider, and, uh, Caesar could've kind of kept him, kept him loyal. It's very hard when you're in France, and this is all happening in Rome.

   13. CWChris Williamson53:15

       Hmm.

   14. APAlex Petkas53:15

       But Caesar has a lot of lieutenants to really, you know, men of letters trying to kind of keep the peace and keep up his contacts in Rome. But, like, if he had been able to be there in person, he believed he could've, he could've settled the seas and won Pompey back over. And this is one of the things after the war broke out that he kept trying over and over again. Like, "Let's just meet, Pompey."

   15. CWChris Williamson53:35

       The civil war?

   16. APAlex Petkas53:35

       "Let's just..." Yeah, the civil war.

   17. CWChris Williamson53:36

       Yeah.

   18. APAlex Petkas53:37

       "Let's just meet. Let's, uh, let's work this all out."

   19. CWChris Williamson53:39

       But he didn't want to.

   20. APAlex Petkas53:40

       Yeah. Pompey didn't want to at that point. He'd already hardened his heart.

   21. CWChris Williamson53:44

       Well, he was supposed to be, Pompey was supposed to be one of the greatest generals ever, right? And he, did he not outnumber Caesar as well?

   22. APAlex Petkas53:50

       Yeah, he greatly did. He had, he, uh, Pompey was brilliant in the civil war. He defeated Sertorius. He ca- he conquered the, the pirates in, like, three months earlier in his career. I mean, he's a brilliant administrator. Um, some people think he's overrated as a general. I mean, he was really good, but I think Caesar was a better general.

   23. CWChris Williamson54:11

       Mm.

   24. APAlex Petkas54:11

       But, but Pompey had-

   25. CWChris Williamson54:12

       Well, ev- evidently.

   26. APAlex Petkas54:12

       Evidently. [laughs] But he, he definitely had by all, by the look of it, all the advantages. When Caesar invades Italy, crosses the Rubicon, um, you know, Pompey has a lot of legions on paper, but they're, they're fresh recruits.

   27. CWChris Williamson54:28

       What's the story of crossing the Rubicon?

   28. APAlex Petkas54:30

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson54:31

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9. 55:41 – 1:03:07

   Was Crossing the Rubicon a Declaration of War Against the Senate?

   1. CWChris Williamson55:42

      I mean, I-it's something that I've heard people say all the time.

   2. APAlex Petkas55:45

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson55:45

      It's a Rubicon moment, crossing of the Rubicon. I have no idea what that means. I don't, I don't know the story. I don't understand why it's significant. I don't know what it's supposed to symbolize.

   4. APAlex Petkas55:55

      Yeah. So there's a kind of, uh, complicated build-up, a standoff. You know, everybody's always kind of ratcheting up their demands as Caesar's like, "I want to come back to Rome, don't-- without prosecution." And the Senate's like, "Over our dead bodies." Uh, he-- you know, concessions going back and forth, being rejected. And so as this is all going on, Caesar's getting his, getting his armies ready. He doesn't want to fight a civil war. I think he's, you know, he-- and he always said that, and I, I think it's right.

   5. CWChris Williamson56:26

      Because he's just come back from Gaul.

   6. APAlex Petkas56:28

      Yeah, he's just come back from Gaul. He's-

   7. CWChris Williamson56:30

      Seven-year campaign, eight-year campaign.

   8. APAlex Petkas56:31

      Right.

   9. CWChris Williamson56:31

      Straight into a civil war.

   10. APAlex Petkas56:33

       Right. Basically. He's, he's at war from 58 BC until 45 BC, almost constantly. I mean, the energy of the man.

   11. CWChris Williamson56:44

       Ugh.

   12. APAlex Petkas56:44

       And, and he's got two advantages. Um, so, so basically he's got, uh, I think he's got ten legions at this point, something like forty thousand men, but they're all kind of strung out over Gaul in forts. They're, they're not close. He's got one legion with him on the border, the legal border between Italy and, um, basically Northern Italy. What we call Northern Italy today was what they would call Cisalpine Gaul. It's, um, it's, it's not like Italy proper. And, um, if you, uh, lead an army into Italy without disbanding it, it's like technically an act of war. Like your consuls are supposed to l- disband their armies before they reenter Italy. And so s- the border between C- Cisalpine Gaul and Italy proper is the Rubicon River. It's this insignificant stream near Ravenna in, uh, northern Italy on the Adriatic Coast. And, um, and so Caesar's camped at Ravenna, and he is negotiating with the, with the Senate envoys going back and forth, back and forth. It's not looking good. Caesar doesn't want to fight a war, but he's gonna be ready. You know? He's not, he's not about to pretend like this couldn't happen. And I think Pompey wasn't really ready for it. But so he's got one legion there with him at Ravenna, not a lot of men, four hundred and, like, uh, forty-five hundred men or so. And at, at, at, at this final moment, the negotiations break down and the Senate declares him a public enemy. They say, "Caesar is, is, is, you know, he's not responding to our demands. We've had enough." And they officially basically declare war on him. And the moment he gets that advice, the very next day, actually, he was, um, he knew what he was going to do the next day, but he pretends like nothing's happening on that day. He's just gon-gonna go about his business in Ravenna. He goes to the gladiatorial shows. He inspects his troops. He has dinner with his friends. It's just a normal day, no big deal. But he secretly sends the order out to his troops to muster, and he, uh, finds his way to the Rubicon. He apparently, like, gets lost in the woods 'cause it's dark. I mean, there's, there's all these kind of elaborate tales about this. And one of the ancient sources, not Plutarch, who's a, a little bit more sober, uh, one of the ancient sources, Suetonius, I think it is, says, you know, you know, as he stood there before the Rubicon, he saw a great winged figure blowing a trumpet. It's like the gods are, like, calling him to war. It's like the Valkyries or something. Um, but [clears throat] what he says is, um, he's there with his officers, and he knows if he crosses that river that, uh, it's, he's, he's declaring war back on the Senate. Um, and so he says, "Let the die be cast." And the, the famous words, it's actually a quote from one of his favorite dramas or a, a comedy from Menander, like, "Let the die be cast, as, as one does when one is entering upon a, a highly risky thing with uncertain results," as Plutarch says.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:00:09

       Hmm.

   14. APAlex Petkas1:00:09

       And so he crosses the, the Rubicon very quickly, and within a day he has just blitzed down and captured a city in, in Italy proper, and he just, he has, one of his advantages, as I was saying, is he loves to be underestimated, and he's really good at getting himself underestimated. Um, and they didn't think he would do it. And he, he only, uh, goes into Italy with one legion, and the s- the Senate has, like, ten legions in Italy. I mean, he's vastly outnumbered, but everybody else arrives really quickly. The other advantage is he's really fast, and so he blitzes through Italy, and pretty soon Pompey, um, and the Senate decide they've gotta, they've gotta get out of there. They've gotta think, rethink their grand strategy, and they, they, they go to Greece to basically muster up and, um, collect a bunch of ships and a bunch of troops in the East to come back and reinvade Italy and destroy Caesar. But, but it doesn't work out that way.

   15. CWChris Williamson1:01:11

       Why?

   16. APAlex Petkas1:01:12

       Well, they were hoping, they knew that Caesar didn't have any ships. Basically, he doesn't have troop transports, so he's not able to cross over and catch them and take the war to Greece. He's not able to draw on his great advantage, which is speed.And they're hoping to, uh, essentially, kind of blockade Italy and starve him out. Rome, if you blockade Rome, the people will starve quickly, because they're getting the majority of their grain from places like Sicily, North Africa, uh, not yet Egypt, but it's a, you know, it's the biggest city in the world at that point, at least in the West. Million people maybe, and, uh, you can't get that much grain in from the countryside on carts, you know?

   17. CWChris Williamson1:01:58

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   18. APAlex Petkas1:01:58

       So they bring it in on ships. So they're hoping to basically starve the people of Rome and make Caesar really unpopular. Um, and so, uh, uh, he, he doesn't have ships, he can't go catch them. So there's also, um, Pompey's got guys in Spain that start up a, a... They, you know, holding out against Caesar, and, you know, Caesar's only controls Italy and Gaul, and he, so he has to go fight a war in Spain first before he can go catch Pompey in Greece. And, uh, you know, basically by, by leaving, um, by leaving Italy rather than settling it then and there, his enemies are essentially saying they're willing to make this a world war, which is exactly what happens. There's, there's a war fought in Spain first. Caesar comes and he f- and he, um, defeats them in Greece. Then he, uh, goes to Egypt. There's another war there, and then there's another war in Asia Minor, then there's an- a war in North Africa, and then there's the final, kind of, embers of the war in Spain. I mean, he, he l- he visits every single province in the Roman Empire and carries war to almost all of them.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:03:06

       Wow.

10. 1:03:07 – 1:16:13

    How Pompey’s Murder Led Caesar to Egypt

    1. APAlex Petkas1:03:07

       Yeah.

    2. CWChris Williamson1:03:07

       You mentioned Egypt there. What's the story of Caesar and Cleopatra?

    3. APAlex Petkas1:03:10

       Yeah. Well, so, um, fast-forward, you know, the, Caesar's first campaign is in Spain. His second campaign in the civil war is, um, is in Greece, where he defeats Pompey at the Battle of Pharsalus, which is the really, should have been the, the last battle, should have been the decisive battle. And, uh, um, Pompey flees and makes his way to Egypt. They don't know where he went for, for a while, um, but Caesar finally figures out he's gone to Egypt, because Pompey has friends there. And as soon as he gets on shore, actually, he doesn't ever, ever reach the shore. He, he basically comes up with his warships, and the Egyptians say, "Oh, yes, we're really glad to see you, Pompey. Uh, come, come, come ashore. We've, we've got the whole reception ready for you. Just get in this little boat, and, you know, there's, there's reefs that a big ship like yours would, would probably founder on, so just trust us. We're gonna get you in this little boat and take you to shore."

    4. CWChris Williamson1:04:16

       Mm.

    5. APAlex Petkas1:04:17

       And, and, and, uh, you know, Pompey gets on the boat. He, he probably knows what's gonna happen, but he's, he has no hope at this point. He's just crestfallen. He's, he's dispirited. He thought he was gonna win against Caesar. It was an upset victory-

    6. CWChris Williamson1:04:33

       Mm

    7. APAlex Petkas1:04:33

       ... at Pharsalus.

    8. CWChris Williamson1:04:34

       Mm.

    9. APAlex Petkas1:04:35

       And, um, I think it just, kind of, shattered him. And I think there's th- I'm trying to remember e- exactly how they frame it, but there's a moment where the, the boat captain is like, "Come on, Pompey. There's nothing to be worried about. You can trust us." Um, and Pompey said, "You know, if I were worried about my life, I would not get in this boat." Like, I mean, I think he knew.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:05:02

        Mm.

    11. APAlex Petkas1:05:03

        Because on that boat, they murdered him, in front of the eyes of his son, in front of the eyes of his wife, in front of the eyes of all of his friends. Once they get a little way from the, the warship, he never makes it to shore. They murder him.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:05:16

        Who's they?

    13. APAlex Petkas1:05:17

        The Egyptians. So who is they? What's going on in Egypt right now is there's a civil war happening. Egypt is ruled by, at this point, by, uh, th- the Ptolemies, who are a Greco-Macedonian ruling class. Their capital is Alexandria, which is a great Greek city founded by Alexander the Great. He's, he's, he's everywhere, isn't he? And so, uh, there's a, a conflict going on between these two, like, teenage, uh, one is a teenager, one's a 20-year-old, like, siblings of the pharaoh who died. You know, it's funny to think of these Greeks as pharaohs, but that's what they would've called them in Egypt. And, um, Pompey was hoping that all the favors he did for them earlier would ingratiate him to the Egyptian regime, but they basically saw Caesar won at Pharsalus. He's probably gonna be the winner in this war, even though it might go on for a while. What would, what would make Caesar really happy is if we just killed Pompey and presented Caesar with Pompey's head-

    14. CWChris Williamson1:06:25

        Mm

    15. APAlex Petkas1:06:26

        ... and said, "Hey, we did you a favor." And if we did that, you know, if P- if we let Pompey live, he's probably gonna try to raise an army and try to use Egypt as a base and drag on the war, and we're gonna have Roman troops just ripping this place apart.

    16. CWChris Williamson1:06:43

        In the middle of our own war.

    17. APAlex Petkas1:06:44

        In the middle of our own war. It's gonna be just a total mess.

    18. CWChris Williamson1:06:48

        Mm.

    19. APAlex Petkas1:06:48

        So they, kind of, nip it in the bud. And, um, and I, I k- it kind of made sense. I think what it would, would've made more sense is for them to just arrest Pompey, because Caesar wanted Pompey alive, actually. He-

    20. CWChris Williamson1:07:01

        He kept on pardoning his enemies during-

    21. APAlex Petkas1:07:02

        Yes

    22. CWChris Williamson1:07:03

        ... the civil war.

    23. APAlex Petkas1:07:03

        Yes, he wanted to pardon Pompey. He pardoned enemy after enemy. Uh, Domitius, uh, Petre- Pa- Petreius. I mean, l- you could l- list names and names. He's always sparing his enemies. Some would say that he, he was too kind to his enemies, 'cause they end up assassinating him.

    24. CWChris Williamson1:07:19

        Mm.

    25. APAlex Petkas1:07:20

        Which we'll get to that maybe. But, um, and Caesar also knows that, uh, if Pompey, if he captures Pompey and spares him, if he c- if he could just get in the same room face to face with this man that he hasn't seen in the better part of 10 years-That they could work something out

    26. SPSpeaker1:07:38

        Mm.

    27. APAlex Petkas1:07:39

        He could convince Pompey to get the troops to stand down, to get everybody to, to stand down. There's no way that this war could carry on if Pompey and Caesar come to an agreement finally. That's what he really wanted. Um, he wanted to make peace. He didn't, he didn't wanna fight this war, but, you know, he was willing to fight it-

    28. SPSpeaker1:07:57

        Mm

    29. APAlex Petkas1:07:57

        ... if, if they wanted to fight it with him. And so, you know, when he lands ashore, they present him with the signet ring of Pompey. This has a great... I think it had a, a lion on it. It was u- unmistakable. And then they give him the head of Pompey. [laughs]

    30. SPSpeaker1:08:13

        Just in case you weren't sure.
11. 1:16:13 – 1:21:14

    Cleopatra’s Winning Tactics Over Caesar

    1. CWChris Williamson1:16:13

       Okay, so she gets carried in.

    2. APAlex Petkas1:16:14

       So she gets carried in and, uh, you know, she knows how to make an entrance too. From that moment, Caesar s- sees, like, "All right, this is, this is another show person like myself."

    3. CWChris Williamson1:16:27

       Mm. Mm.

    4. APAlex Petkas1:16:27

       She's 20 years old. She's the oldest of the siblings. Um, speaks all kinds of languages. Obviously, she knows, she's a native Greek speaker. She speaks Egyptian and Latin and, you know, Syrian and, and on and on. She's very, very charming and clever. She might not have led with her looks, but you'll hear stories that Cleopatra was actually kind of ugly and she was, you know, more of a great conversation partner. But she was, she was beautiful. Like, she, maybe she wasn't like a, a 10, but-

    5. CWChris Williamson1:17:02

       [laughs]

    6. APAlex Petkas1:17:02

       ... she was an eight at least. Um, yeah, that's a great image. See if you can do Cleopatra Elizabeth Taylor rug scene. See if that turns up some results.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:17:14

       Mm-hmm.

    8. APAlex Petkas1:17:14

       Um, and, um, and sh- she had a knack for power. Like, she knows how to play the heartstrings of a man. She's, uh, um, she's got... She knows Caesar's weakness. Caesar has this weakness for smart, high status women.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:17:35

       Mm.

    10. APAlex Petkas1:17:36

        He's on his third wife now, but she's back in Rome. Yeah, yeah. You wanna play it?

    11. CWChris Williamson1:17:41

        Yeah, yeah.

    12. SPSpeaker1:17:42

        The rug is such a delicate weave. If I may untie it for you.

    13. SPSpeaker1:17:46

        Turn it over first.

    14. SPSpeaker1:17:49

        But the rug is now right side up.

    15. SPSpeaker1:17:50

        I understand, but I want it the wrong side up. Or should I flip it over with my sword?

    16. SPSpeaker1:17:54

        No, no, no.

    17. SPSpeaker1:18:01

        I find one can tell more about the quality of merchandise by examining the, uh, backside first.

    18. SPSpeaker1:18:12

        All hail Cleopatra, kindred of Horus and Ra, beloved of the moon and sun, daughter to Isis, and of Upper and Lower Egypt, queen [laughs] .

    19. APAlex Petkas1:18:28

        A damsel.

    20. CWChris Williamson1:18:29

        [laughs]

    21. APAlex Petkas1:18:35

        [laughs] So yeah, she knows how to make an entrance, right? It was something like that. It's not far off. And, um, and she also knows how to play the kind of wound... I mean, I think Elizabeth Taylor does that really well. "Oh, my back. Oh, oh, let me help you up, madam."

    22. CWChris Williamson1:18:52

        Mm. Mm.

    23. APAlex Petkas1:18:53

        Um, and so basically Cleopatra wins him over very quickly and, uh, because she does this, she's, she's sort of on the losing side of the war currently. Um, but Caesar says, "We c- we can reconcile you, you guys. I'll be your mediator." And, you know, Ptolemy hates this idea, or his, rather, his eunuch and his general hate this idea because they know, like-

    24. CWChris Williamson1:19:21

        It's nice that the eunuch has got such say here. "Yeah, let's listen to the guy that chopped his dick off."

    25. APAlex Petkas1:19:27

        Yeah. Well, you know, he's a very learned man, you know. He has other talents.

    26. CWChris Williamson1:19:30

        Well, he's got nothing else to do.

    27. APAlex Petkas1:19:31

        Right. [laughs] Um, and you know, of- I think, I don't know how they did this in Egypt, but often, like, it would be the parents that did it to, like-

    28. CWChris Williamson1:19:41

        It's an offering

    29. APAlex Petkas1:19:41

        ... yeah, promote the kid and yeah, there's, there's something really-

    30. CWChris Williamson1:19:46

        You gotta do it with the second one. If you do it with the first one, like-
12. 1:21:14 – 1:25:18

    Were Caesar and Cleopatra Lovers?

    1. APAlex Petkas1:21:14

       in the triumph.

    2. CWChris Williamson1:21:15

       Was there any suggestion that Cleopatra and Caesar got it on?

    3. APAlex Petkas1:21:19

       Oh, more than a suggestion. Like, they become lovers.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:21:22

       Right

    5. APAlex Petkas1:21:22

       Like, for real, and they have a kid too, which is fascinating to think about the ramifications of this. But so yeah, basically, Caesar's never gonna turn down a, uh, a good offer from a high status woman. A- and you know, she's a g- living goddess by Egyptian tradition. She is-

    6. CWChris Williamson1:21:44

       Daughter of Isis

    7. APAlex Petkas1:21:45

       ... daughter of Isis. A- not just daughter of Isis, but living embodiment of Isis. Like, just like she said, there, there's a kind of, uh, you know, fully god, but fully human s- s- sort of thing going on with-

    8. CWChris Williamson1:21:58

       Mm

    9. APAlex Petkas1:21:58

       ... with the pharaohs. Uh, son of, uh, son and kind of like divine avatar of Amun-Ra, or is it, um, Osiris? It was Osiris with the pharaohs. So anyway, she's worshiped as a divinity while she's alive. There's great, um, reliefs, like, so she, she gets portrayed as a Greek to her Greek subjects, as the Ptolemies do.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:22:20

        Mm-hmm.

    11. APAlex Petkas1:22:20

        Like, you know, looks like a normal human, kinda classical statue face.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:22:24

        Mm.

    13. APAlex Petkas1:22:24

        And then there are reliefs of her portrayed as, like, an Egyptian hieroglyphic lady too. Might be worth pulling up.

    14. CWChris Williamson1:22:30

        J- Jared, I wanna-

    15. APAlex Petkas1:22:31

        Yeah

    16. CWChris Williamson1:22:31

        ... I wanna see this.

    17. APAlex Petkas1:22:32

        Cleopatra Egyptian relief, something like that. A really interesting place, a, a, you know, Ptolemaic Alexandria.

    18. CWChris Williamson1:22:41

        Mm.

    19. APAlex Petkas1:22:42

        Um-

    20. CWChris Williamson1:22:43

        It's blending two things together. It feels like the phasing out of the old world and the phasing in of what would sort of become this, what then would be more cosmopolitan.

    21. APAlex Petkas1:22:51

        Mm-hmm.

    22. CWChris Williamson1:22:51

        What then would be built more around rhetoric, philosophy, what then would've been seen as modern and sort of this sort of passing off of, but you've got the, both of them are happening at the same time. And I guess it-

    23. APAlex Petkas1:23:04

        There you go. That's her and, I think that's her and her bro- oh, that's her son Caesarion. There, so there's Cleopatra on the left. Um, and the other one is the son of Julius Caesar. That's their kid, Caesarion.

    24. CWChris Williamson1:23:17

        No way.

    25. APAlex Petkas1:23:18

        Yeah.

    26. CWChris Williamson1:23:18

        That image on the left? Open that up-

    27. APAlex Petkas1:23:19

        Uh, yeah

    28. CWChris Williamson1:23:19

        ... Jared.

    29. APAlex Petkas1:23:21

        So there you go.

    30. CWChris Williamson1:23:23

        Wow. Yeah, so that's proper 3000 BC looking-
13. 1:25:18 – 1:38:25

    Inside the Final Day of Caesar’s Life

    1. CWChris Williamson1:25:18

       Yeah, cool, eh? All right, so-

    2. APAlex Petkas1:25:20

       Hmm

    3. CWChris Williamson1:25:20

       ... what was Caesar's last night like? You've mentioned he's-

    4. APAlex Petkas1:25:23

       Yeah

    5. CWChris Williamson1:25:23

       ... accumulated a bunch of enemies, but maybe not shaken the Etch A Sketch enough to actually get rid of them all. Keeps pardoning them. He's maybe erroneously deciding to be, uh, uh, forgiving.

    6. APAlex Petkas1:25:35

       Mm-hmm.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:25:36

       What does the final day of Caesar's life look like?

    8. APAlex Petkas1:25:40

       So, um, the lead-up to this is important because Caesar is, uh, you, you know, he, he knows that there are assassination plots. There were even assassination plots 18 months earlier when he got back to Rome finally from the African campaign where he-Uh, defeated Cato and friends. And Cicero mentions this in a speech. He gives a speech in front of Caesar. He's like, "Caesar, um, I have heard, it is, it has been said that you, you tell people 'I have lived long enough either for nature or for glory.'" Because he knows about assassination attempts, and he dismisses them. He says, "You know what? If they wanna kill me, I've had a good run."

    9. CWChris Williamson1:26:26

       Mm. How old is he at this point?

    10. APAlex Petkas1:26:27

        He is ... So this is 46 when he gets back, so he would be 54. Born 100 BC.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:26:34

        Mm.

    12. APAlex Petkas1:26:35

        Uh, and 44 is, is the Ides of March, when he dies. So that's, that's how old he ends up being. But I mean, you know, that- that's pretty old for a Roman. Like he, he's [laughs] had a pretty good run so far. And, uh, but he dismisses these, these, uh, these, um, plots. And, you know, the information just keeps coming in, surer and surer. "People are trying to kill you, Caesar. Can you please up your security detail? Can you please give yourself a bodyguard? Like, we're begging you." His friends are begging him, and he says, "Not gonna do that. That's what tyrants do." And sure enough, like this is the kind of classic mo- mold of how a tyrant seize power. Pisistratus at Athens. I mean, you can multiply a lot of examples. You get a bodyguard first. You say, "Oh, no. There's threats against my life. I need a bodyguard, citizens. I just wanna be your servant." And, and, and then that's how you seize power. And Caesar knows that that's the pattern. He's not gonna do it. And, and it comes the point where people are continuing to bring in names of potential conspirators, and Caesar says, "I've had it. Anybody bringing me more talk about an assassination plot is going to face consequences." He's like, "You're gonna get fired if I hear another about you bringing me an assassination plot." He doesn't wanna, he doesn't wanna hear it. And I think that's because he didn't want to rule over a subjugated, you know, cowed populace.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:28:10

        Mm.

    14. APAlex Petkas1:28:10

        He wanted to rule over free Romans.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:28:12

        Mm.

    16. APAlex Petkas1:28:14

        Um, and he didn't want a police state. He didn't want ... He wanted people to f- feel free to say what they, whatever they wanted to say. Uh, this is clearly de- demonstrated by a lot of his actions. You know, people are criticizing him. They're making jokes about, at Caesar's expense. You know, there's certain lines that you don't cross, um, but he doesn't want to, um, up his security detail. The very last night, thir- the 14th of March, he, you know, it's a normal day of business. Busy day at, at work, and he's got this incredible crushing burden of, of, you know, cases to hear, and petitions and laws needing passing. And he's also preparing for this great expedition to Parthia. He's going to avenge Crassus. Crassus was killed by the Parthians. They captured Roman eagles about 10 years earlier. So he's, he's just trying to get, get through the next three days to get out of town and go back to ... I mean, Caesar was good at politics, but I think-

    17. CWChris Williamson1:29:18

        Better at war.

    18. APAlex Petkas1:29:19

        I think he's better at war, yeah.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:29:20

        So-

    20. APAlex Petkas1:29:21

        Or he, he's equally as good at war, and it's probably a happier place for him

    21. CWChris Williamson1:29:24

        Even in BC times, people were still drowning in admin, is what you're saying?

    22. APAlex Petkas1:29:28

        Oh, yeah. I mean, like the load that he's carrying, yeah, it's, it's a universal problem.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:29:34

        Mm.

    24. APAlex Petkas1:29:35

        Once they invent writing, you know, it's, it's over.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:29:37

        Fucking game over.

    26. APAlex Petkas1:29:38

        [laughs]

    27. CWChris Williamson1:29:38

        Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the email inbox of Ancient Rome.

    28. APAlex Petkas1:29:40

        Yeah. And it's funny you should mention email. So, um, on the last night, Caesar is having dinner. As you know, he, he has a, like formal dinner every night. There's like nine seats at a typical Roman feast. You, you circle around on couches around a central table, and yeah, everybody kinda lies down. It's, it's weird, but that's how they did it.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:30:02

        Mm.

    30. APAlex Petkas1:30:03

        And, uh-
14. 1:38:25 – 1:49:50

    The Bad Omens That Caesar Ignored

    1. CWChris Williamson1:38:25

       And what about the next day?

    2. APAlex Petkas1:38:27

       So it's, I think Caesar was, um, I mean, w- he has a reputation for dismissing omens. He did this when he was consul. The, you know, his enemies are trying to obstruct him in, in the, um, in the assemblies and they're, they're saying, "Oh, I saw a bird flying the wrong way," and, "I heard thunder, I heard thunder." It's a blue sky and he's like, "I didn't hear you, though. Let's get on with business." You know, he just ignores omens for most of his career. Sometimes the omens are bad, and he's like, "Let's fight the battle anyway," and he wins. But all these, you know, his wife is saying, "I had a bad dream. I don't have a good feeling about this." And ancient omens, I think, are often kind of, uh, it's a system that's in place, so before you s- you go into a campaign, you... Or, or before you go into battle, you sacrifice to the god. You know, you, you cut open a piglet or a whatever it is, and you read the entrails. Or you get the sacred chickens out and you see, all right, do the sacred chickens wanna eat their, their, uh, their feed, or are they staying in their cage? Uh, you know, it's, what does this mean? And it, it's kind of like opening up a space for intuition. Gen- the generals often have to make decisions, leaders often have to make decisions that could be the right decision, but to have to explain why you're making that decision is, um, would, would, would undermine the project somehow. Like, you don't, you wanna have a, a way of explaining intuition. That's, that's how a lot of anthropologists explain it. I think that's really compelling. Um, but so I think his wife had a bad feeling. I think he had a bad feeling at some point. He was apparently kind of un- like, a, this stomach issues. It's unspecified, but he felt, like, out of sorts that morning.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:40:25

       Mm.

    4. APAlex Petkas1:40:27

       And he was supposed to go to the Senate. There was some business, some important business at hand, a, a dispute between Mark Antony and, uh, Dolabella, blah, blah, blah. And he's like, "Maybe I don't wanna go to the Senate today. I'm feeling out of sorts. My wife is telling me to stay home." Uh, he goes, you know, down the street. He, he, he lives in the Forum. The Senate's meeting about a mile away. He goes down the street to a buddy's house and to say hi, and they, they do a little sacrifice, and that sacrifice contains bad omens. We don't know the details, but, like, he's, this is really striking. So he, he decides to just stay home that day. And who shows up at his door but Decimus Brutus, the guy he was having dinner with last night. He says, "Caesar, I heard that you are listening to the, the ravings of a, of a woman. I mean, I've never heard Caesar to be, uh, bothered by omens in his career. Think of all the battles that we've won after bad omens. Like, come on, Caesar, let's... You know, the Senate's counting on you. They, they all cleared their schedules. They're busy men, and, you know, you're really trying to make them feel like Rome is the same Rome." This is a whole other issue, that, you know, he is kind of becoming this monarchic figure in Rome.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:41:45

       Mm.

    6. APAlex Petkas1:41:45

       Uh, he's getta- getting accused of wanting to make himself king. He's getting accused of wanting to make himself a god, which is not entirely off base. We could get to that, but so, you know, Decimus makes some good arguments. "Come on, soldier up." He's a fellow soldier. And so Caesar reluctantly at first, but, you know, he kinda allows himself to be persuaded by Decimus. And it's funny, you know, I mean, whenever Caesar goes anywhere in Rome, the, the crowds, the throngs, people are saying, "Caesar, kiss my baby," or, "Can you, you know, cancel my debt?" Blah, blah, blah. But, uh, and this is, again, well-attested. This happens in, in Shakespeare's play, but, you know, apparently he had a client, uh, like a friend of his whose house he had stayed at in Asia once. And, um, the young man, the son of the house, was in Rome studying philosophy, and probably was connected with the other Brutus, Marcus Brutus, who was one of the ringleaders of the assassination. And this kid, I forget what his name is, comes up to Caesar and, like, Caesar knows him, and he passes a letter to Caesar. He says, "Caesar, you have to read this urgently." Uh, Caesar's probably being carried in a litter, but he gets the letter to Caesar, and a- apparently Caesar has this in his hand and plans to read it. But this would've been, uh, basically the guy was trying to tell him about the plot that was very much in action that day.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:43:18

       Underway.

    8. APAlex Petkas1:43:19

       That was underway, that he was walking right into.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:43:21

       So Brutus went to try and encourage Caesar to leave the home, to sort of question his-

    10. APAlex Petkas1:43:27

        Yeah

    11. CWChris Williamson1:43:27

        ... agency and sovereignty and belief in himself.

    12. APAlex Petkas1:43:29

        Mm-hmm.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:43:30

        To remind him of what he'd done in the past in an attempt to get him out of the house-

    14. APAlex Petkas1:43:34

        Mm-hmm

    15. CWChris Williamson1:43:34

        ... so that he could be carried through so that he could arrive at the place for the assassination.

    16. APAlex Petkas1:43:39

        Well put, yeah. So that was, you know, the Senate meeting that they were, that they ended up doing the deed at, uh, murdering him at, in the Senate. And, uh, and there, you know, the two Brutus is the one that he was with dinner with the night before was the, um, the guy who got him to come, the guy that's in his will.Incredible. And so he, yeah, he gets to the Senate house. Once again, the omens are bad. [laughs] You know, as you always sacrifice, you do some whatever you do, uh, before going into the Senate to kind of inaugurate the meeting.

    17. SPSpeaker1:44:15

        Mm.

    18. APAlex Petkas1:44:16

        Consuls usually do this. I think Caesar's consul that year, um, and, uh, s- omens are bad, but he goes in anyway. Yeah. And, and he's, he's in the Senate house, uh, as, and it's his throne as dictator is right under the statue of Pompey the Great, because the place that they're actually meeting is not the old Senate house, which burned down a couple of years earlier. It's this new complex, um, that, that Pompey built with the spoils of his war in the East.

    19. SPSpeaker1:44:52

        Mm.

    20. APAlex Petkas1:44:52

        And it's like a little basement, or not basement, it's like a, a, a room o- off the complex that Pompey built for the Senate to meet in.

    21. SPSpeaker1:45:00

        In the Forum?

    22. APAlex Petkas1:45:01

        In, uh, so it's, it's outside the Pomerium. It's in, it's in the Campus Martius now. So it's, um... I forget what that part of Rome is called. Um, but basically, it, it was an area that wasn't very built up, so you could [laughs] s- plant this massive, you know, stone complex-

    23. SPSpeaker1:45:16

        Mm

    24. APAlex Petkas1:45:16

        ... with multiple buildings pretty easily, uh, in this unclaimed land. So he had to actually walk from the Forum. It was like a, it's probably a 20-minute walk. Yeah. Um, [clears throat] but it, that is where the Senate is now officially meeting. And of course, there was a statue of Pompey as conqueror, you know, in this prominent place in the Senate house, and it's, it's i- in front of the statue of Pompey the Great that the petitioners come up, or that the assassins come up, pretending to have some urgent business. "Please, my brother is in exile. Caesar, can you get him pardoned?" "No, this is not the time." "Please, Caesar." And Brutus comes up, and Decimus comes up, the other Brutus, and Cassius comes up. "Caesar, this is a worthy, uh, friend of yours. We, we, we, we beg you, please, you know, you, you must spare..." And then that's when they have him distracted. They grab his robe, and he, at some point before he actually gets stabbed, he's like, they're grabbing him. He's like, "What's going on here? This is violence."

    25. SPSpeaker1:46:16

        Mm.

    26. APAlex Petkas1:46:16

        And, uh, and that's, I think, when he realizes, at least when the first blow struck, that every man that's surrounding him, it's 15 or 20 guys probably. There was a b- there were more people in on the plot, but some are holding the doors, you know, keeping the perimeter to make sure, uh, th- But yeah. And, uh, then they did the deed. And, you know, after they kill him, um, after they stab him, there is that moment, that is in Plutarch, where he turns to Brutus, the, the more famous one, his, uh... And this is, r- remember, like, he's the son of Caesar's, like, top girlfriend, Servilia, and he had a relationship with this kid. Like, he was looking out for his career.

    27. SPSpeaker1:47:07

        Mm.

    28. APAlex Petkas1:47:08

        Uh, he was promoting him. The kid fought on Pompey's side in the civil war for, for some family reasons, but he spared him. So many of these men, he spared. And some of them are his trusted, like, long-term loyalists. It's not just former enemies that were spared, that were resentful. It's former loyalists. And, uh, and he says to, to Brutus, "You too, child." "Quis ut tec non?" Uh, "Et tu, Brute?" as, as Shakespeare says. Um, and then they, you know, he bleeds out. Who knows how long it takes. But amazingly, the Senate clears out. Pandemonium. I mean, to kill Julius Caesar, like, this is, this is, like, a hor- a horrifying idea, because it, it, it really threatens to plunge the Republic back into civil war again.

    29. SPSpeaker1:48:00

        Mm.

    30. APAlex Petkas1:48:00

        He's the lid holding it all down.
15. 1:49:50 – 1:58:23

    The Decisions That Sealed Caesar’s Fate

    1. SPSpeaker1:49:50

       What convinced them that he needed to go?

    2. APAlex Petkas1:49:53

       Well, they saw that after the civil war, Caesar was unquestionablyNot just the f- the, the first among equals, not just the first man in Rome, but like something was changing. You know, Caesar had fought, fought all of his career to end corruption and the, the stranglehold of the, the establishment oligarchy over offices. I mean, there was incredible wealth inequality, and there's this kind of like tight clique of people that control everything, and they get to abuse the provincials a- at will if they're... You know, the typical way that you, uh, rise up in Rome is by winning elections and then going out and, uh, being governor. And usually it's very expensive to get elected, and then you have to go into debt, and you recoup your money by, by robbing the Greeks or the Gauls or the Spaniards and taking bribes and stuff. It's a system that highly incentivizes corruption, and Caesar wanted to change that, among other things. And, um, and, and he-- I think he eventually decided that this whole game that we've been playing at Rome for 450 years since the republic was founded, since they drove out the kings, you know, you gotta remember, the Romans have been inoculated against kings much in the same way we are as Americans. Like America was founded by us rejecting King George III. Rome was, the republic rather, was founded by driving out Tarquin the Proud, who was this brutal, you know, corrupt tyrant in their eyes. And then the-- it was a, a collective government. You have elections for office. You know, you have assemblies to vote on laws and all this stuff. That's what the republic is to them. That's what Rome is to them. And, uh, and this is also the game that people like Decimus Brutus, his friend Brutus, the other Brutus, Cassius, uh, basically everybody in the republic, every- everybody in the leadership classes had been playing, uh, had been, had been expecting to play for their whole lives, which is, you know, this is how you get honor. You get honor by service to the republic. You get honor by winning elections. You get honor by winning wars. But now, Caesar is basically trying to kind of transition the political system into, um, something resembling a monarchy.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:52:34

       Mm.

    4. APAlex Petkas1:52:34

       He doesn't wanna call it a king- a kingship. He doesn't wanna call himself king. But he- he's really deliberately taking all the authority into himself, because I think he sees that his legacy depends on if, if he re- releases power, he's kind of a control freak, you might say. If he lets go, then it's all gonna kinda dissolve again, that people are gonna undo his legislation, and, um, they're gonna go back to, revert to the way that things were. And this is one of the reasons why he just feels like he has to hold on to power. Um, but what it, what it puts him in this uncomfortable position, uh, for is every honor no- in the past used to be given by the Roman people. You used to have supreme responsibility as a consul. If you're going to command Rome's armies, uh, you are the guy who wins the victory. If you win the consulship, it's because the people of Rome elected you consul, and so on and so on. Honor is granted by the state. And now it seems clear Caesar's been handing out offices basically. Like, he's been picking the consuls. He's been picking the praetors. He's been drafting the laws and getting the Senate to rubber-stamp them. All the honor flows from this one man, and how is that not slavery in the eyes of a proud Roman?

    5. CWChris Williamson1:54:07

       Mm.

    6. APAlex Petkas1:54:07

       Like, you-- The, the most, Aristotle talked about the most difficult thing that a, a politician has to do, and their most important duty-

    7. CWChris Williamson1:54:16

       Mm

    8. APAlex Petkas1:54:16

       ... as, of a statesman is to correctly, wisely distribute honors, 'cause this is, for a guy like Caesar and for a guy like Decimus, for, for any of these, these, you know, super, uh, Chad Roman-

    9. CWChris Williamson1:54:30

       Mm

    10. APAlex Petkas1:54:31

        ... statesman, uh, aspirants, the thing, the, the prize that you're playing for is not wealth, and at least it shouldn't be. It's not, it's not pleasure. It's not like fame as such or status as such. It's honor. So that's what Aristotle would say, that, that, that the highest form of the statesman, the great souled man, is one who desires great things, considers himself worthy of them, and is correct in that judgment. And that means, um, being worthy of, of great things. But what are the greatest things to desire? I mean, this is a question that's perplexed philosophers, but Aristotle says-

    11. CWChris Williamson1:55:14

        What is a good life?

    12. APAlex Petkas1:55:15

        What is, what is a good life? What is worthy of desire? Uh, what is, what is it, um, what does it mean to be worthy of something? And Aristotle says the highest thing that you can desire of external goods is honor.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:55:30

        The price that you would be paid for a ransom note.

    14. APAlex Petkas1:55:32

        Yeah. Yeah, essentially. And, uh, you know, you can desire virtue. You can desire inner peace. You can desire wholeness. You can desire wisdom. But those are all internal goods. But, but of, of the things that you can kind of strive for, it's honor. And so this is the highest prize that, that, um, an ambitious man could, like, you know, make a career on. You know, pursue virtue. You need to be virtuous to be really worthy of honor, et cetera. Um-But, and, and, you know, for, for a great souled man, even honor is maybe a small prize, because, like, honor can be corrupted, right?

    15. CWChris Williamson1:56:14

        Mm.

    16. APAlex Petkas1:56:15

        Um, corrupt people get, get voted honors all the time. Uh, so I don't think that's a problem Caesar had solved. He's brilliant, brilliant statesman, legislator, politician, brilliant with people, but, like, to get a whole political class of ambitious young men, I mean, all the guys that kill him are, like, late 30s, early 40s. They're, like, in their prime.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:56:39

        Mm.

    18. APAlex Petkas1:56:39

        And they still got a lot of gas left.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:56:41

        Right.

    20. APAlex Petkas1:56:41

        And they're seeing the whole game has been just screwed. Like, I was raised to want honor.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:56:50

        Mm.

    22. APAlex Petkas1:56:50

        And honor is, is what the people of Rome give you. And now I'm, I'm supposed to, like, do all of this stuff that I was going to do, command armies, uh, you know, pass laws. I'm gonna all do it as Caesar's employee.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:57:08

        Right.

    24. APAlex Petkas1:57:09

        Right? Never a boss, never a patron, always a client. I think that was intolerable for-- It was like a meaning crisis for them.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:57:16

        But the situation that they did put themselves into is that for the rest of time they would be seen as an assassin.

    26. APAlex Petkas1:57:22

        Yeah.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:57:23

        I mean, I guess maybe it's preferable to be a powerful assassin than a, a peaceful subordinate, maybe in Roman times, or at least in their version of this philosophy.

    28. APAlex Petkas1:57:37

        Yeah.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:57:38

        You know? Like, it's an interesting blend to, to think that it would be better to be mutinous and a rebel against somebody that was a great leader-

    30. APAlex Petkas1:57:47

        Yeah
16. 1:58:23 – 2:00:59

    Where to Find Alex

    1. CWChris Williamson1:58:23

       Alex, you absolutely rule, dude.

    2. APAlex Petkas1:58:25

       [laughs]

    3. CWChris Williamson1:58:25

       This has been so much fun. It was so great, and I-- There's, you know, literally 2,000 years of history that we could go through.

    4. APAlex Petkas1:58:32

       Before we close, I got you a little gift.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:58:34

       Oh, thank you.

    6. APAlex Petkas1:58:35

       Um, you know, I don't know how much of a Roman Empire fan you are, Chris, but I'm trying to make you one.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:58:42

       Okay.

    8. APAlex Petkas1:58:42

       So, um, this is a coin that I got from Kinzer Coins, uh, which I recommend. It's, it's Hadrian. You're, you're a northern Brit, right?

    9. CWChris Williamson1:58:54

       Yep, yep.

    10. APAlex Petkas1:58:54

        Like-

    11. CWChris Williamson1:58:54

        I've been to Hadrian's Wall many a time.

    12. APAlex Petkas1:58:56

        I figured, I figured. And, uh, you know, if you look at this, he's got a nice little beard. I mean, they-- I see a little resemblance there, as a matter of fact. It says, it says on there, "Hadrianus, uh, Augustus," Hadrian Augustus. And, um-

    13. CWChris Williamson1:59:13

        Dude, this is so cool

    14. APAlex Petkas1:59:14

        ... it says C-O-S on the other side. That means consul.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:59:17

        Uh-huh.

    16. APAlex Petkas1:59:17

        So it was minted when he was a consul.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:59:18

        And is that, are those stars?

    18. APAlex Petkas1:59:20

        I th-

    19. CWChris Williamson1:59:21

        Is that three-

    20. APAlex Petkas1:59:21

        I think they're stars

    21. CWChris Williamson1:59:22

        ... on the, what would be the bottom-

    22. APAlex Petkas1:59:25

        The, yeah, this is, uh-

    23. CWChris Williamson1:59:27

        What is on the back? It's someone stood in a toga?

    24. APAlex Petkas1:59:30

        Yeah, I think that this is Roma.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:59:34

        Who's Roma?

    26. APAlex Petkas1:59:34

        She might have the-- Like, she's the, the goddess that embody- Is, like, the divine tutelary goddess of Rome.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:59:42

        I can't believe you got me that.

    28. APAlex Petkas1:59:44

        Yeah.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:59:44

        Dude, that is so fucking cool.

    30. APAlex Petkas1:59:47

        Hadrian is, is the last, um, emperor that Plutarch lived under. He was, um, so he's k- kind of special to me. Not to be emulated in everything. You know, Hadrian had a-- You know, he, he did, he did a lot of things Greek style. He, but he was a great, he was a great fan of the Greeks, a patron of the Greeks. So, um-

Episode duration: 2:01:00