The Savage Mindset That Makes Hard Things Easy - Jocko Willink (4K)

1. 0:00 – 6:23

   There Are No Solutions, Only Trade-Offs

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      I know that you're a fan of the Thomas Sowell quote, "There are no solutions, only trade-offs." What's that mean to you?

   2. JWJocko Willink0:07

      That you're never gonna completely solve anything in your life or in the world, and there's always gonna be compromises that you have to make. And if you aren't willing to make those compromises, or you don't keep your mind open for those compromises, you're gonna run into some real (laughs) problems. But if you look at it, and the fact that, ya- you know you might put a little more effort over here that's gonna take away from s- some effort over there, you can't just do everything at once, so, yeah, no solutions, only trade-offs.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:32

      How do you deal with the tension of feeling that other thing pull away from you? Right, you know that you need to focus, and you know that by focusing on one thing, another thing is going to start to drop away, but the classic over-achiever mindset is, well, everything needs to be growing at all times. So, there's a- an emotional pain of watching something stagnate or watching something fall behind. How do you try and navigate that?

   4. JWJocko Willink0:57

      Y- you just have to figure out what the priority is. A- a- a- and- and at certain times, you know, certain things might be a higher priority right now than it is at some other point, and something else picks up, and sometimes the family needs to be the priority, sometimes the business, sometimes the other business, sometimes the health. Like, you're just gonna have to weigh those things out, and re- recognize that you can't do them all a- simultaneously at the same time all the time. It's just, it's not gonna work. So you gotta figure out where you're gonna make some compromises, where you're gonna make some trade-offs.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:24

      Yeah, the, uh, the sentence, "You can be anything you want, but you can't be everything you want," is so good for that. And especially if you like novelty, like doing lots of different things, "Oh, this is interesting to me, I'm- I'm curious, I want to..." You go, yeah, okay, dude, but there is a limit, right? And when you start to sp- it's the most obvious thing in the world. If you spread yourself too thinly across lots of different things, you can't be that great at all of them. You can't be really that great at any of them after you start to spin it up after a while.

   6. JWJocko Willink1:50

      Yeah. Yeah. And it's one of those laws of combat that I- y- teach and used to teach in SEAL teams and now I teach to businesses, prioritize and execute. Like, you've gotta figure out what the priorities are and then execute on those things. But you gotta figure out what the- what the biggest priority is at any given time, like I said, whether it's this business or your family or your health, at certain times you gotta say, "All right, I gotta pay attention to my family right now. I can feel things are gettin' a little bit-"

   7. CWChris Williamson2:16

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JWJocko Willink2:16

      "... sketchy over there." Or, "All right, my family seems solid right now, I gotta focus on this part of the business." And then within the business, this particular section of the business, and you go right on down the line.

   9. CWChris Williamson2:26

      How do you think about, uh, moving between planning and execution in that way? Is it something that you can do at the same time or is it really important to sort of step back, give yourself that perspective, and then go back in to actually enact the strategies?

   10. JWJocko Willink2:39

       If you end up executing things yourself, y- you can only do so much at one time, right? I mean, if you're- if you've got something going on with your family, well, hopefully your spouse is gonna be able to take some action on that, whatever that thing is, and then you've got m- businesses, well, you've got departments inside your business, and you, you know, assign some plan to someone inside the business that's gonna step up and take charge of that thing and run with it. So, that's d- that's the fourth law of combat leadership, which is- which is decentralized command, meaning you can't do everything yourself. You need to allow your subordinate leaders to step up and lead and make things happen. So that's a... It- it's- it's mandatory to do that if you're gonna- if you're gonna execute on more th- more than one thing-

   11. CWChris Williamson3:23

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JWJocko Willink3:23

       ... in life.

   13. CWChris Williamson3:23

       Mm-hmm. What about when it comes to working out what your priority should be for yourself? It seems like even that, uh, not being able to see the wood for the trees, I'm currently in the midst of this thing, but I need to actually... Is this the best place for my, uh, for my attention to be spent right now?

   14. JWJocko Willink3:39

       Yeah, I- I- I think, first of all, you've got to be able to detach a little bit and take a step back and take a look at what's going on in the world and take- take a look at what's going on in your world to go, "Oh, you know what? It seems like this might not be the best thing." 'Cause that's- I think what happens is if you don't take a step back and you don't detach, then you're not gonna recognize what's happening, what's going on, and that's how someone can work until they have no family left or pay so much attention to their family that they lose their job (laughs) , they go in the wrong direction.

   15. CWChris Williamson4:06

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JWJocko Willink4:06

       So you need to be able to s- take a step back and actually assess what's going on, and you can't get drawn down into the weeds of any particular thing-

   17. CWChris Williamson4:14

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JWJocko Willink4:14

       ... for too long, right? Like, you can do it for a little while.

   19. CWChris Williamson4:17

       Yep.

   20. JWJocko Willink4:17

       You can do it, depending on the thing, (laughs) you can do it for a day or a week or a month sometimes, but then after that you gotta say, "All right, I gotta take a step back and-"

   21. CWChris Williamson4:25

       Yeah.

   22. JWJocko Willink4:25

       "... and have a look around."

   23. CWChris Williamson4:25

       Well, the same thing goes for, uh, health, right? If you're gonna launch a new business, probably not gonna be in the best condition you've ever been in, so a- are you just gonna take over? Maybe I'll get a k- you know, push but leg session in across the week or something like that, and you go, "Okay, well, I- if I really want to find my future husband or wife, well, I," you know, that- I- I imagine that my sleep's gonna suffer. You know, I'm gonna have to go out more. I'm gonna have to be more social. Maybe I'm gonna have to go to restaurants and, like, pretend to eat like a normal person. (laughs) Uh, it is a lesson that I think you can only learn with experience. It's very difficult to tell somebody, "You need to do this." It's really something that you learn through pain. That you go, "I- I- I let my foot off the gas with this one particular thing."

   24. JWJocko Willink5:07

       Yep.

   25. CWChris Williamson5:08

       "Look at what happened. Didn't go well. I better not do that again. I better not let my health get to the stage where I- I haven't slept properly for three weeks at a time and (snores) ugh, look at, you know, that was when I got sick."

   26. JWJocko Willink5:20

       Yeah. And I think that actually health is one that you- y- you don't want to totally walk away from health at any time. And I think that's one of the reasons that I- I feel like I'm doing pretty good right now, is I never... I probably haven't taken more than, you know, two or three days off from working out in decades. You know what I mean? So, yeah, I g- I mean, okay, I had a surgery on my neck, so, okay, that was- I- I took some time after that. But even after that, like, after three days, I was (clears throat) in my garage gym walking around in circles, like-

   27. CWChris Williamson5:57

       That doesn't s- that doesn't surprise me.

   28. JWJocko Willink5:58

       ... just trying to make something happen.... but I, I think when people completely abandon their health for a month or two months, I think that can be ... I think that's where injuries start coming into play, and you, you lose ... you really go backwards.

   29. CWChris Williamson6:13

       It's foundational, right?

   30. JWJocko Willink6:14

       Yeah.
2. 6:23 – 20:39

   How to Be More Confident in Your Decisions

   1. CWChris Williamson6:23

      there. Uh, what's your advice for how people can be more confident in their decisions in life? Like, where does confidence come from, in your opinion?

   2. JWJocko Willink6:31

      I think confidence comes from, I th- well, clearly, some of it comes from experience, but I think one of the, one of the most profound things that you can do to become more confident is to become okay with saying, "Yeah, I'm not exactly sure what to do right now." And if you can say that, all of a sudden, it, th- the world becomes just a lot easier. And, you know, for, if, if we're in a meeting and we've got some, you know, uh, a project that we're gonna s- get started on, and it's something I've never done before, and I'm the boss, and I say, "Hey Chris, I'm not really sure what to do right now." Well, th- that's okay. And you go, "Well, actually, I, at my old company, we did the same thing, so let's make this move," and I go, "Okay, that sounds like a good place to start anyways," and so now we get started. Whereas, if I come in and I'm like, "I don't want Chris to know that I don't know how to do this," or, "I'm not sure of myself right now," or, "I'm lacking confidence, so I'm gonna pretend to be confident-"

   3. CWChris Williamson7:27

      Hmm.

   4. JWJocko Willink7:28

      ... I think that's problematic. So I, I think, look, though n- no one knows everything. No one makes all perfect decisions. No one is, uh, understands every element of the world (laughs) , so I think a good way to gain confidence quickly is to admit the fact that you don't know everything-

   5. CWChris Williamson7:45

      Hmm.

   6. JWJocko Willink7:45

      ... and, and just be okay with saying, "Yeah, I'm not really sure what to do here."

   7. CWChris Williamson7:49

      Does that lower the pressure, lower the bar of self-expectation?

   8. JWJocko Willink7:55

      Absolutely. I think it, I think it lowers the bar of self-expectation, not to a negative point where it's like, "Oh, I've got low expectations of myself," but if I was to be coming up here to, to sit down with you and have this talk, and I was thinking, "What if he asked me about something I don't know about? What am I gonna do?" And I'd be a little bit panicked, and then you'd ask me about, uh, uh, car racing, Formula 1 racing, right, which we were talking about before we started this. And now all a sudden you said, "Well, hey, in Formula 1, the, the, the drivers do this. What do you think of that protocol?" And I was, like, trying to formulate in my head-

   9. CWChris Williamson8:31

      Pretend.

   10. JWJocko Willink8:32

       ... pretend like I know what I'm talking about, when I don't. So instead I just say, "Oh yeah, I'm, I don't know anything about car racing, so you tell me." A- and, and that means the whole drive up here-

   11. CWChris Williamson8:43

       Hmm.

   12. JWJocko Willink8:43

       ... to come and sit down with you and get interviewed by you, instead of me being paranoid that you might ask something I don't know about and my confidence is now shaken, instead I'm rolling in here like, "Oh yeah, if, if he asks me some stuff I don't know about, I can say, 'Oh yeah, I'm not really 100% sure about that. What do you know?'" Or-

   13. CWChris Williamson8:59

       Hmm.

   14. JWJocko Willink8:59

       ... "What's your opinion?"

   15. CWChris Williamson9:00

       Mm-hmm. That's liberating in a way.

   16. JWJocko Willink9:01

       I think it's very liberating. (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson9:03

       Is that sort of humility?

   18. JWJocko Willink9:06

       That's, I, uh, yes, I think that is humility.

   19. CWChris Williamson9:09

       Yep.

   20. JWJocko Willink9:09

       And, and it's something that you get, you know, when you're in the military, you know, you can be in charge of people that have more experience than you, and if that makes you uncomfortable, oftentimes people flex to try and act (laughs) like they know more than they do, when it's like, "Oh yeah, you've run these kind of operations before, Chris? W- why don't you take lead on this?" Okay, I'm, y- I'm the senior guy, I'm the boss, but I say, "Hey Chris, you've already run these type of operations, why don't you take lead on this?"

   21. CWChris Williamson9:36

       Hmm.

   22. JWJocko Willink9:36

       No big deal. It's ... Does your respect for me go down or does it go up?

   23. CWChris Williamson9:40

       Goes up.

   24. JWJocko Willink9:41

       Exactly. As opposed to me saying, "Uh, here's what we're gonna do, Chris," and I don't know what I'm talking about, and you can clearly see this 'cause you've done it 25 times, and I, I'm an idiot. So yeah, I would say be more humble and you'll be more confident.

   25. CWChris Williamson9:56

       It's really interesting to think where you're lowering the stakes. There's, there's no su- in that definition of confidence, there's no such thing as not having enough confidence. There is just being yourself.

   26. JWJocko Willink10:05

       Mm-hmm.

   27. CWChris Williamson10:05

       And then if you are yourself and you meet the limits of whatever your competence is, your understanding, hand it off to someone else or say, "Hey, dan- I, n- does no one ... Oh, brilliant, no one here knows what to do?" Uh, you know a good example of this? The first-ever cinema production that we did, so this is our cinema series-

   28. JWJocko Willink10:21

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CWChris Williamson10:21

       ... fancy cameras and big team of people and stuff. Uh, the first one we ever did was in (laughs) uh, S- San Antonio. We did it in the Alamo with Jordan Peterson.

   30. JWJocko Willink10:29

       Mm-hmm.
3. 20:39 – 31:59

   One Word You Need to Overcome Fear

   1. CWChris Williamson20:39

      You spent a good bit of your career in situations that would cause most people to feel a ton of fear. I think that fear is related to this confidence, conviction in my decisions. What have you learned about how to deal with and overcome fear?

   2. JWJocko Willink20:55

      Go. Go. Yup. It's y- when all that, all that, uh, fear that's in your head, all the what-ifs and the scenarios that you create inside your own mind that are way worse than anything that is actually gonna happen, they all disappear when you go. So, just, just take action and, and start moving forward. It, and it- that is the, th- that is the moment that can last a million years, is waiting to go. And I've found I- I'm pretty good at it now, where, "Oh," I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I know what that is," and I'm going, and then that's it. And once you go... Uh, you know, driving e- even, you know, speaking of in being in combat, if we were driving to a target and you're, you know, so you're gonna go hit a target somewhere, and driving to the target, the closer you get, you're thinking about all the things that could go wrong, all the bad things that are gonna happen, all the stuff. "What if one of my, my guys gets wounded? What if they have IEDs in the

   3. NANarrator21:59

      Yeah.

   4. JWJocko Willink21:59

      Like, there's a bunch of things going through your mind. Once you, like, stop, get out of the vehicle, y- all those things go away, yup, and you're doing the thing, and you're not worried about it anymore. And so, it's just go. That's, that's th- that's the answer.

   5. CWChris Williamson22:13

      So action is an antidote to anxiety then? (laughs)

   6. JWJocko Willink22:15

      Man, action's an antidote to all kinds of problems in life. Yeah. You know, it's, I was, uh, I- I- I ski, and I was up at, I was up in, uh, Big Sky, Montana, and they've got this, this, you know, challenging trail. And I was at the top of it, and you're thinking, "Oh, well, this could be the end of my ACL," and, like, all these stupid things are going through my mind and I'm like, uh, it's like, as soon as I got there, just boom, just going, da- just go 'cause-

   7. CWChris Williamson22:39

      Is that something you always had?

   8. JWJocko Willink22:40

      What?

   9. CWChris Williamson22:41

      That, uh, I feel fear, immediately lean into it. How trained is that versus how innate is that?

   10. JWJocko Willink22:48

       I think it's t- I think it's trained because you go through, (laughs) you go through situations, and... And it's interesting, you know, in the military, they're probably doing it to you on purpose or maybe it's just the way it is, but okay, you're gonna go rappelling, right? Rappelling is relatively d- it doesn't feel that crazy. Well, then you're gonna fast rope, which is a little bit of a step up, and then you're gonna fast, ef- you're gonna rappel off of a building, right? And then you're gonna rappel out of a helicopter. Then you're gonna fast rope out of a tower, and then you're gonna fast rope out of a helicopter, and then you're gonna parachute, and then you're gonna free-fall parachute. And all those things g- they're all things that you can be afraid of. Even going back to, like, the obstacle course, which I think the tallest obstacle on the obstacle course might be the, the, the cargo net-

   11. CWChris Williamson23:33

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JWJocko Willink23:33

       ... which is a cargo net that you climb up. It's probably... I don't know how tall it is, but it's tall enough that you are not gonna be in good shape if you fall.

   13. CWChris Williamson23:41

       Yup.

   14. JWJocko Willink23:42

       And you have to climb up the tar- cargo net and then you have to go over the top of it and then climb back down the other side. But even that, if you're freaked out or you're scared, you're gonna get stuck there. And there's guys that do get stuck, they don't climb over the top of it, not a lot, but there's occasionally guys that say, "Yeah, this, it's, they're not, it's not happening."

   15. CWChris Williamson24:00

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JWJocko Willink24:00

       So, the longer that you sit, th- s- you hang on and look and stare and contemplate the chances of you falling off, it- it doesn't get any better. So eventually, you just, pff, throw your leg over (laughs) and get over that damn thing. So I think I probably just experienced it enough and was...... cognizant enough to recognize that at some point, "Oh, yeah, this feeling of caution and fear and all that stuff in the back of my head, yeah, I just need to get rid of all that and just go."

   17. CWChris Williamson24:27

       It seems to go away when I move toward it.

   18. JWJocko Willink24:29

       Yeah. Uh, it does go away. It (laughs) 100% goes away. Uh, uh, there's gotta be something that you do that you're, that makes you a little bit scared.

   19. CWChris Williamson24:37

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JWJocko Willink24:38

       What?

   21. CWChris Williamson24:39

       What's the stuff? Going out on stage is one of those. You know, three and a half thousand people in London, this big event that we've been-

   22. JWJocko Willink24:45

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CWChris Williamson24:45

       ... building up to for six months. And my least, uh, my two favorite bits of it, or three favorite bits of it, half an hour before I'm about to go on, as I go on-

   24. JWJocko Willink24:55

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson24:56

       ... and then just as I finish and as I come off.

   26. JWJocko Willink24:58

       Mm-hmm.

   27. CWChris Williamson24:59

       One minute before I go on is fucking awful.

   28. JWJocko Willink25:01

       (laughs)

   29. CWChris Williamson25:02

       And it's the, you, in the Humvee driving-

   30. JWJocko Willink25:04

       Yeah, yeah.
4. 31:59 – 50:19

   What It’s Really Like to Be in a Firefight

   1. CWChris Williamson31:59

      I wanna know, just on the firefight topic, um, I've been spending a good bit of time reading more, um, like military history and, and, and trying to get a bit more of an understanding of... There's a, a great book called Atrocitology, which is the hundred greatest human atrocities across time. It's ranked by the, the, uh, number of people that were killed. And I've been sort of trying to think about, um, that level of fear, that level of sort of kinetic, uh, uh, engagement between people. What is it that normal people don't understand about what a modern firefight is like? What is it that they don't get about what it's actually like to be there?

   2. JWJocko Willink32:42

      I think the, the chaos of it and the not knowing what's... Uh, so here's an example. We, we would... In training, when I was running training, we would have guys shoot paintball at... Like, really high speed paintball guns. And so if you, you were a, uh, a SEAL platoon commander, you're a SEAL platoon commander, Chris, and I would have my SEALs in the training detachment going out with paintball and, and shooting your guys. And you had paintball too and you could shoot back. So I remember guys would come to me and they'd say, "Well, you know..." We'd be in an, in an urban environment, right? So like, a fake city that we have that's concrete buildings, but it's a fake city. And the platoon commander, Chris, comes back to me and he's like, "Hey, Jocko, this is not realistic." "Oh, why isn't it realistic?" "Well, we can't tell where your guys are shooting from because the paintball, the paint guns don't have muzzle flash-"

   3. CWChris Williamson33:38

      Muzzle flash.

   4. JWJocko Willink33:38

      "... and they don't make a bang."

   5. CWChris Williamson33:39

      Yep.

   6. JWJocko Willink33:39

      "So, we can't tell where the shots are coming from." And it's like, guess what? You're not gonna know where you're getting shot at from. I mean, it's very similar to a paintball, actually. (laughs) It's like, you ever been in a city and you hear a siren over your left shoulder and you start looking over your left shoulder and all of a sudden it comes from the right because of the way sound dynamics work? So that's like one tiny example of how confusing and chaotic it can be.

   7. CWChris Williamson34:04

      Mm.

   8. JWJocko Willink34:04

      And, and so I think seeing in the movies y- some, some... They're doing it better and better now. Uh, the movie just came out called Warfare, which was, was directed and written by a SEAL, a guy named Ray Mendoza, who actually was the group of guys that came and took our, my place and, and my guys' place in Ramadi in 2006. He came and took... His guys took our place. And so a few weeks later they had a... They, they got hit on an operation and they had two guys get really badly wounded. Um, but it was a really... And a, a couple of their Iraqi soldiers, their friendly Iraqi soldiers got killed. Just a very vicious situation. But when you see the movie and they... He made it very realistic. And it's chaos. It's chaos and confusion and guys are not knowing what's happening, screaming, wounded guys just screaming. And so I think that level of chaos and confusion-

   9. CWChris Williamson35:06

      Mm.

   10. JWJocko Willink35:06

       ... is, is what gets missed out on. And then what the leader needs to do is take a step back from that chaos and confusion, figure out what's happening and make decisions. So yeah, that's it.

   11. CWChris Williamson35:19

       It's not as slick or sexy as it's been portrayed in movies traditionally, but people are now catching up.

   12. JWJocko Willink35:27

       Yeah, I think people are catching up now. Um, I think people... I think... And, and this movie Warfare is a great example of, oh, there's total chaos.

   13. CWChris Williamson35:36

       It's not neat.

   14. JWJocko Willink35:37

       Yeah, it's not neat. And, and by the way, human beings with an incredible amount of training are still gonna, like, do things that you don't expect them to do. And that, that's, that's real. So it's, it's a good... It's, it's... The... Hollywood is, is starting to catch up with that.

   15. CWChris Williamson35:55

       Mm.

   16. JWJocko Willink35:56

       I'm try- just trying to think back of... You know, Saving Private Ryan did a pretty good job. You know, that opening scene on the beach, there was definitely World War II veterans that were... That sat through that, D-Day veterans that sat through that and said, "Whoa." Like that, "You, you guys got it." And some of the, some of the effects that they did, even in Save Private, in Saving Private Ryan where, uh, Tom Hanks is... They're getting shot at and he's sort of like, the, the... It gets quiet and slow motion type stuff, and he's just kinda detached from the whole thing. He's just...... out of body experience.

   17. CWChris Williamson36:29

       Mm.

   18. JWJocko Willink36:29

       And then someone shakes him, "Hey, loo- you know, Captain, you gotta get..." And, and he kinda gets back in it. And that's kind of an in- uh, leading indicator of what they're starting to get better and better at.

   19. CWChris Williamson36:40

       Is that a common, uh, emotion to feel that-

   20. JWJocko Willink36:44

       Yeah. Like-

   21. CWChris Williamson36:45

       ... and then -

   22. JWJocko Willink36:46

       And e- even earlier we were talking about, um, like noise and when you're in, in, when shooting your gun in a gunfight, shooting your gun is freaking loud. But if you're shooting your gun in a gunfight, you don't, you don't go, "Oh, th- that's loud."

   23. CWChris Williamson36:59

       (laughs)

   24. JWJocko Willink37:00

       Now, you might start to catch a glimpse of that sometimes where you're like, "Oh, my machine gunner's right here and he's dumping (laughs) rounds." And you go, "That's really loud right now and we're getting hit with blank, by the way, which hurts." So you, there's just these, these things that are happening that there's a lot going on and yeah, sometimes your adrenaline's going and you start to slow down and see, see things moving i- in a slower manner. Time kinda slows down sometimes.

   25. CWChris Williamson37:27

       Mm.

   26. JWJocko Willink37:28

       You start hearing some things that you might not have heard or not hearing things that you would hear. You know, another, another big thing is, you know, we, in modern days, we have these radios and we have headphones with noise-canceling headphones. And guys would start to pass radio traffic on the, on the radio. So if I needed you, "Hey Chris, come down to the first floor of this building. I need, I need you to set security for me." And I would say that on the radio to you, "Hey Chris," you know, "Hey Chris, come down to the first floor. I need you to s-" Meanwhile, you're up there on your machine gun, you don't hear a damn word that I say. And so what I have to do is I have to pass word verbally like, "Chris," and, "Chris, Chris." And it, it like wakes you up because everything that's going on in the headphone just becomes-

   27. CWChris Williamson38:10

       Oh, wow. You get a pattern interrupt.

   28. JWJocko Willink38:12

       Yes. Yes. So-

   29. CWChris Williamson38:13

       It's just t- t- in background. It's-

   30. JWJocko Willink38:15

       Yeah.
5. 50:19 – 1:00:11

   Biggest Misconceptions About Discipline

   1. CWChris Williamson50:19

      do most people misunderstand about discipline equals freedom?

   2. JWJocko Willink50:27

      Um... I don't know. I think it was pretty simple to understand. (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson50:33

      I agree, but I, I, w- it's... With simplicity comes an awful lot of opportunity for people to-

   4. JWJocko Willink50:39

      Yeah. I, I, I guess there's always people that, you know, as they're trying to fish for a contrarian thing to say, which I think you kinda have to fish for it. I think you have to work for it to get with that statement. But, oh, there's such a thing as too much discipline, and if you have t- so much discipline in your life, then you're- won't be enjoying your life. And cool, yep. If you are so disciplined that you never go out and you never, uh, eat a pizza, cool, y- you're, you're, you're, you're... That might... You might be bummed out. Yep. You can go too far with it.

   5. CWChris Williamson51:16

      Mm-hmm.

   6. JWJocko Willink51:16

      But generally speaking, if you have an occasional pizza, 'cause they taste really good and once a month or whatever, you go down to the pizza place and you get a pizza, cool. Good for you. That's gonna be awesome.

   7. CWChris Williamson51:27

      Mm.

   8. JWJocko Willink51:27

      And that's the reward for freedom. But I think it's, I think it's pretty straightforward and... I guess, I guess if I was to fish a little bit more, I would say that the idea that discipline is natural or it's, um-

   9. CWChris Williamson51:47

      Like innate?

   10. JWJocko Willink51:48

       ... innate.

   11. CWChris Williamson51:49

       Yeah.

   12. JWJocko Willink51:49

       And actually, my middle daughter, who's a jujitsu player, she was, she was actually speaking the other day, and one of the things that she said was... She was speaking about discipline. And she said, "You know, I was w- I was training... My dad and I, we went to the gym the other day and we w- we were both training and I was training with, you know, the, the, the guys that I train with and she was training with the people she trains with. And it's a Sunday and we're training. We're both like really tired when we're done." And we get done and we're kinda sitting up o- on the mats and we're talking and, and I look at her and I said, I was, I said, uh, "Not one part of me wanted to come train today. Like 0% of me wanted to come train today. And I'm so, so glad I came and trained." 'Cause you know, you always feel great when you get done training. But... So my daughter went and spoke to this group and she said, "You know, my dad, you know, Mr. Discipline, who's been on this path for however many decades, my dad didn't wanna train." And he had to go, "Hey, doesn't matter whether you wanna do it or not. You gotta have the discipline to go do it." And, and he did, and he got done with it. So... And I think that's a good thing to remember, that discipline isn't just, oh, this person is, quote, more disciplined than, than this other person. It's like, no, this person is choosing discipline, this person is not.

   13. CWChris Williamson53:06

       Mm.

   14. JWJocko Willink53:07

       That's the way it is.

   15. CWChris Williamson53:07

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JWJocko Willink53:08

       So, I think that's an important thing to remember. You have the option of being disciplined. You, you don't have the option of being born 6'4". Right? You don't have that option. You either are or you're not. But you do have the option of choosing discipline or not.

   17. CWChris Williamson53:24

       So, discipline, not necessarily something that you're born with?

   18. JWJocko Willink53:28

       I don't think so at all. I think maybe there's some small percentage of it. Maybe this person's a little bit more innately disciplined than this other person. But I think it's a choice.

   19. CWChris Williamson53:40

       Well, how much of it's habit as well, and momentum? You know, as you said that, I think this is one of the vicious cycles that people get into, and it's also why you see people that have unbelievably outsized, uh, results in life and those who kind of have consistently bad results in life, because each positive experience is self-reinforcing. It tells you a story about the sort of person you are, and you start to build on good habits and these good habits show you more good habits and you get a little bit more confidence and you get a little bit more... And you say, "Well, this is part of my identity now, actually. Can push myself a little bit." So, da da da da da da da da da da. And you're like, holy fuck. Like even if the 1% per day-

   20. JWJocko Willink54:18

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson54:18

       ... increase, and you end up at some unbelievably big number by the end of the year. But you also see the opposite. And this is how you get, you know, very diverging outcomes from people that started at relatively similar places.

   22. JWJocko Willink54:30

       Mm-hmm. Certainly, and this is something that I've said for a while and... Is discipline begets discipline, right? If you make a bad decision in the morning and you decide you're not gonna get out of bed, you decide you're not gonna work out, when you get to the office, the donuts are that much more tempting and you're probably gonna eat one.

   23. CWChris Williamson54:46

       Mm.

   24. JWJocko Willink54:46

       Whereas if you woke up early, you worked out...... you got a little bit of work done before you even showed up to work. You show up to work and now there's donuts, you're like, "Oh, I don't need those right now."

   25. CWChris Williamson54:54

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JWJocko Willink54:54

       You, you, you just make better decisions and that's-

   27. CWChris Williamson54:56

       Are you on the front foot today or on the, on the back foot today?

   28. JWJocko Willink54:58

       Yeah, exactly. And, and yeah, the compounding thing, for sure. And you, you make one good little decision that leads to another good little opportunity and, and, you know, I'm sure you have friends like this too. I have friends that made just small decision after small bad decision after small bad decision and they end up in terrible, terrible places.

   29. CWChris Williamson55:20

       Yeah.

   30. JWJocko Willink55:20

       Which is awful to see.
6. 1:00:11 – 1:13:50

   When You Can’t See a Light at the End of the Tunnel

   1. CWChris Williamson1:00:11

      I imagine it's all well and good saying good decisions beget good decisions. You've got this infinite domino tumble that helps you to keep the momentum up. And, yes, it is your responsibility to deal with the repercussions of the decisions that you've made, including the string of bad ones for the last quite a long time, if that's the situation that you're in. But it's not particularly reassuring or comforting, I don't think, to somebody who's in the shit. So, what would you say to someone who's going through a bad month or a, a string of bad months and doesn't see any light at the end of the tunnel?

   2. JWJocko Willink1:00:56

      What are your options? You know, like, okay, you're upside down financially, you, relationship went ba- went south, you got, y- wha- whatever those things are, your credit card debt is up, you, you got fired from your job. Okay. You're, you're in a terrible situation. W- what are your options? Y- what you have to do is, well, you kinda have to prioritize and execute, right? Like, okay, I got all these bad things going on in my life. What is my biggest problem right now? And you've gotta say, okay, I gotta start with solving that problem. And you gotta start to, going back to the, I think it was the initial thing that we talked about, take, take action. You've got to take action and move forward. And if you don't, y- y- th- this, the d- the downward spiral doesn't end.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:01:52

      Mm-hmm.

   4. JWJocko Willink1:01:52

      And if you allow it to continue to go down, i- that's where it's gonna end up. And so y- you just have to, what are my options? D- abandon the whole thing? Like, no, that's not the option. That is not the option. What can I make better right now? And start to reassemble things and putting 'em back together.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:02:14

      Small steps. I remember, uh, advice to a friend that was going through a period of low mood and was feeling bad about not being able to get out of bed and wasn't able to show up and all of this stuff, and I was like, "Dude, you need to literally see every single micro step." Like, you're in bed. You have gone to the bathroom a couple of times. You haven't seen sunlight in a few days. Uh, you've been ordering Uber Eats to the door and like, you know, sort of looking at the floor as the, the fucking delivery guy arrives. Like, you need to think about getting out of bed in the most rudimentary steps possible. So what's the first thing you need to do? Well, you need to pull the covers off you. Like, that is a step. Okay. Hey, like, I can... I mean, that's, you know, that's better than it was before. One foot out of the bed, two foot out of the bed, stand up, get a glass of water, put your shoe, you know, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da, slow, slow, slow.

   6. JWJocko Willink1:03:02

      Yeah. You know, there's something to... So people ask me about jujitsu and, and they, they, they don't like to fight, they don't like the idea of it, they don't like the physical, uh, close contact, whatever the case may be, like, and they'll say, "I don't like it." How long, you know, how long do I have to do it for?" And one of the things that I say is, "You have to do jujitsu until you submit someone e- while you're training with them." And the reason I say that is because if you can train long enough that you submit someone-

   7. CWChris Williamson1:03:36

      Mmm.

   8. JWJocko Willink1:03:37

      ... all of a sudden you go, "Oh, wow, I, I made progress."

   9. CWChris Williamson1:03:41

      Yes. There's a win.

   10. JWJocko Willink1:03:42

       I see the, I see the reward. And so with, yeah, do those little things, but do those little things until at the end of the day you go, "That was a pretty good day." Like, don't... 'cause if you just get up and, "Okay, well, I got out of bed and Chris said get out of the bed, but I still freaking don't like-"

   11. CWChris Williamson1:04:01

       I didn't, I didn't say that.

   12. JWJocko Willink1:04:01

       Yeah. Eh, eh, I still feel like crap, right? Okay, well, get out and do a little bit more and do a little bit more and do a little bit more and do a little bit more and you can stop when you get to the end of the day and you go, "Okay, you know what? Today was a pretty freaking cool day and I feel good." Then if you wanna go back to living in the hole and ordering Uber Eats, go ahead.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:04:23

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JWJocko Willink1:04:24

       But at least give me, at least give me the effort to ha- to make yourself have a good day.

   15. CWChris Williamson1:04:31

       You know the, uh, idea around you do BJJ until you're able to submit someone, that shows that you've been there for long enough to have made some progress. A friend made this, uh, point to me and it's such a fucking smart point that I've never thought of despite the fact I've lifted weights for like 20 years. Going to the gym, m- muscular training in the gym is one of the only pursuits in life where during the act of doing the thing, you see the future progress of where you will be if you keep doing the thing.

   16. JWJocko Willink1:04:58

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson1:04:59

       So if I'm trying to learn Italian with you and we're on Duolingo or whatever the fuck the app is, n- at no point during the process of learning Italian do I understand what it would be like in six months time to be proficient in Italian. But if you go to the gym and you get a pump, you go, "Hey, if I keep doing this for six months, this is what I'll look like flat in a little while." And I think that that, it's such an under spoken about, uh, dynamic of training. I really think that that is one of the biggest feedback loop mechanisms of why it happened. I mean, I guess in BJJ if you just learned, um, a particular movement and you've drilled it and drilled it and drilled it and then you get into rolling and you're like, "Ha, I've still got it."

   18. JWJocko Willink1:05:39

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:05:39

       But next week you're like, "Where the fuck does my arm, like, I can't remember how the..." So maybe a tiny bit like that-

   20. JWJocko Willink1:05:44

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson1:05:44

       ... but there's, I don't think there's anything else. You don't get a pump preview anywhere else on the planet except for in the gym and I think that that's a under spoken about dynamic about why people love it.

   22. JWJocko Willink1:05:53

       Yeah. Uh, that's, i- that being said, you don't see much progress, you know, the next day. You know, yeah, you get a pump and i- depending on your physical makeup, like if you're, if you're overweight, you don't see a pump, you know, which is a bummer. And so if you're overweight, you're not gonna get any gratification going to the gym external. You're not gonna see anything.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:06:17

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JWJocko Willink1:06:18

       So you gotta keep going. You gotta keep going until you start making some progress. Pull, you know, until you can do a pull-up.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:06:23

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JWJocko Willink1:06:23

       Once you can finally do a pull-up, okay. I've heard once that there's, you can't be overweight and do a pull-up. Like it's not, it's not possible.

   27. CWChris Williamson1:06:29

       That's a great point.

   28. JWJocko Willink1:06:30

       So pull-up's a good goal to have.

   29. CWChris Williamson1:06:33

       Before we continue, I've been drinking AG1 every morning for years now and it just got even better. AG1 Next Gen keeps the same simplicity, one scoop once per day, but now comes with four clinical trials backing it. In those trials, AG1 Next Gen was clinically shown to fill common nutrient gaps, improve key nutrient levels within three months, and increase healthy gut bacteria by 10 times even in healthy adults. Basically they've upgraded the formula with better probiotics, more bioavailable nutrients and clinical validation. Plus it's still NSF certified for sport so even Olympic athletes can use it. AG1 genuinely care about holistic health, which is why I've got my mom to take it, my dad to take it and tons of my friends too and why I put it inside of my body every day and if I found anything better, I would switch, but I haven't.... which is why I still use it. And, if you're still unsure, they've got a 90-day money back guarantee, so you can buy it and try it for three months. If you don't like it, they'll just give you your money back. Right now, you can get a year's free supply of vitamin D3, K2, and five free AG1 travel packs, plus that 90-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to DrinkAG1.com/modernwisdom. That's DrinkAG1.com/modernwisdom. That's a really good point. Fuck, do you see, uh, Truett Haynes do the 10,000-

   30. JWJocko Willink1:07:48

       Yeah, yeah. Yeah. (laughs)

Episode duration: 1:58:13