The Science Of Successful Learning Habits | Peter C Brown

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (wind blowing) Hello, friends. This…

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      (wind blowing) Hello, friends. This week, I'm very happy to say that we are going to learn how to learn. Peter C. Brown is the co-author of Make It Stick. That book is about as seminal as you can get in the world of learning to learn. No matter what your area of pursuit in life, it's pretty likely that being able to expedite your capacity to intake information and then recall it at will is probably gonna be pretty useful. And that doesn't matter if it's learning a new subject or learning a new physical skill, if it's knitting or archery or (laughs) law, all of them require you to be able to remember and recall what it is that you're trying to learn. And Peter manages to lay out a really good framework for doing that today. In other news, the Modern Wisdom YouTube channel has now crossed 1,000 subscribers and has nearly hit two million watch minutes, which is pretty crazy in the first two months of it being up. So if you haven't already, please head to YouTube, search Modern Wisdom Podcast, and give it a subscribe. It would be a massive help. Also, if you haven't already, whatever platform you're on, whether it's TuneIn FM... I'm not even sure (laughs) if that's a podcast listening platform. We are everywhere, Spotify, iTunes, Stitcher. Wherever you're listening, please try and give us a five-star rating. I don't really know if it helps, but it strokes the ego a little bit, so (claps hands) do it if you can. But now we're gonna learn how to learn. Peter Brown, bring it on.

   2. NANarrator1:51

      (Upbeat music playing)

   3. CWChris Williamson2:05

      Mr. Peter Brown, welcome to Modern Wisdom.

   4. PBPeter C. Brown2:09

      Thank you, Chris. It's great to be here.

   5. CWChris Williamson2:11

      How are you today?

   6. PBPeter C. Brown2:13

      I'm doing just dandy.

   7. CWChris Williamson2:14

      (laughs)

   8. PBPeter C. Brown2:15

      It's, uh, middle of summer here in Minnesota. It's a nice time to be here.

   9. CWChris Williamson2:21

      Lovely. I've recently, uh, recently returned from the States, and the, uh, the weather was fantastic, but apparently I've missed the one warm week that we get in the UK as well while I was away.

   10. PBPeter C. Brown2:30

       (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson2:30

       So I should've doubled down, I should've doubled down and just stayed home.

   12. PBPeter C. Brown2:34

       I guess. (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson2:35

       I understand. So, uh, I wanna get straight into it. Can you define to me what learning means?

   14. PBPeter C. Brown2:46

       Yes. Uh, (laughs) uh, f- for me, I define learning as, uh, picking up knowledge or skill, uh, that resides in your memory and is available to you when you need it later to solve a problem or take advantage of an opportunity.

   15. CWChris Williamson3:06

       Okay. That sounds like a very, a very curated definition. Was that something that you came upon easily, or is that something that you had to develop through a lot of, um, a lot of thinking, a lot of conceptual, uh, deconstruction?

   16. PBPeter C. Brown3:21

       (laughs) No, I just made it up. But it's, uh, becau- I made it up when I started working on writing the book, Make It Stick, because I felt that I owed the reader a definition of what we're talking about with learning, and I figured, "Well, I'll just try that and see if it holds up." And it held up fine.

   17. CWChris Williamson3:36

       Was there a satisfactory definition in advance of that?

   18. PBPeter C. Brown3:42

       No. I'm sorry, but I, I might have a problem with my headphones, 'cause that kinda comes on and off.

   19. CWChris Williamson3:47

       Oh, okay. I'm not too sure what's going on there. That might be, uh, that might be on my side.

   20. PBPeter C. Brown3:52

       Okay. So, uh, ask the question again.

   21. CWChris Williamson3:55

       Was there an existing definition of learning that you were happy with or was that one that you just created? Did that need to be there as far as you were concerned?

   22. PBPeter C. Brown4:06

       I felt it needed, I felt we needed, we owed the reader a definition. If we're writing a book about learning, we owed the reader a definition of what learning is, and, uh, so I sorta thought about it a little bit and I wrote that, and I thought, "We'll start with that and see if it holds up as we go through the book." And, and it held up fine. Some people in science, the sciences refer to learning as, um, three things. Uh, one being, um, in, uh, encoding, which is when you first encounter material and it's, it, it's, uh, encoded as traces in the hippocampus. Consolidation. This is the process by which it moves, mi- migrates over hours or days into other parts of the brain where long-term memories are stored. And retrieval, being able to recall it again later. So the scientists think of it as that's learning for them. Uh, for me, it's, uh, y- you, you'll, you learn it and you remember it, and you can recall it when you need it.

   23. CWChris Williamson5:06

       I understand. So can you give us a little bit of background to the book, Make It Stick, and why you were compelled to write that?

   24. PBPeter C. Brown5:14

       Yeah, sure. Um, uh, I've been retired for some e- eight years. Uh, I made my living as, um, a, a marketing and, uh, planning consultant to corporations here in Minnesota, and I had turned to writing books, and I was between book projects. And I was sitting down with my brother-in-law, uh, uh, Henry Roediger. Uh, Henry Roediger, who goes by Roddy, is, um, um, internationally preeminent in the field of memory and learning. He's a cognitive psychologist. And he, he was telling me that he was just coming to the end of a ten-year, uh, study of, uh, what strategies, uh, lead to better retention of the new material, and he had a team of, uh, cognitive psychologists at 11 different universities.... uh, doing this work with their, um, their doctoral students and post-docs. And over a decade of such studies, they were coming to some findings that were counterintuitive, and he said, uh, "We've been trying to figure out how to get this out to a broader general audience, and maybe we should collaborate on a book." So, that's how I got into it. I'm not a scientist, uh, but I was very taken by what they were finding. So, Roddy, Henry Roediger, and, uh, one of his colleagues, Mark McDaniel, uh, who is also a cognitive psychologist, they're both at Washington University in St. Louis, Missouri, uh, the two of them and I collaborated on this book.

   25. CWChris Williamson6:41

       Okay. So I guess you've got the, um ... you've got the cognitive firepower in there on those guys' sides. You know, 10 years and 11, uh, facilities that have been used for that particular study. It's not as if you're, uh, it's not as if you're short of, of research on that side.

   26. PBPeter C. Brown7:01

       (laughs) No. And the book is based on, on decades of research, uh, and it reaches far beyond the work of that team. Uh, but you're right. Uh, uh, it's, uh, it's firmly grounded in the empirical evidence, but I tried to write a book that was highly anecdotal and engaging to read so that people would stick with it and we could, um, tell stories that illustrated what the science shows about how learning works. So, that gave it a different kinda twist than the, than the typical scientific, uh, study, uh, publication.

   27. CWChris Williamson7:38

       Yeah, for sure. I think in order to get the wider population to be able to buy into books like these, you need to bring it back down to earth. There needs to be some tacit examples and some things that people can relate to everyday life. Talking about standard deviations away from the norm and, you know, (laughs) statistical modeling-

   28. PBPeter C. Brown7:55

       (laughs) Right.

   29. CWChris Williamson7:55

       ... it, it doesn't-

   30. PBPeter C. Brown7:55

       Whatever that means, right? (laughs)
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Yes, of course. …

   1. PBPeter C. Brown15:00

      because they didn't mix it up. And when you get a- a test where it's mixed up, they can't remember which formula went with which problem.

   2. CWChris Williamson15:10

      Yes, of course.

   3. PBPeter C. Brown15:10

      So this notion of mixing your practice, which does not feel good, uh, is very powerful for, uh, i- improving your ability to recognize the kind of problem you're facing and picking the kind of solution that's going to be correct.

   4. CWChris Williamson15:23

      That's interesting.

   5. PBPeter C. Brown15:25

      So there are other kinds of desirable difficulties, and- and, uh, so the notion of if it's clear as a bell, I'll- I'm sure I'll remember it, you know, is not really true. Uh, if you have to reconcile different ideas between the lecture and the book chapter or what have you, uh, that mental effort is what's gonna make it stick.

   6. CWChris Williamson15:49

      That's interesting.

   7. PBPeter C. Brown15:50

      So that's the second big idea, that some- some difficulties are desirable.

   8. CWChris Williamson15:54

      Okay. And the third?

   9. PBPeter C. Brown15:55

      Number three (laughs) , number three is that our intuition leads us astray. So our intuition is when I reread it many times, I get very fluent in it. Uh, I'm on top of it. I can do that- I can do that and take a test the next morning, I pull an all-nighter, and I can get a great grade on the test. It doesn't stick though. What happens if you're tested again a week later, you've lost about half of it. Um, our intuition says if we practice our 20-foot putt over and over again, we see improvement. And it's true, you do, but that improvement leans on short-term memory. Uh, uh, the- the skills have not been consolidated in long-term memory. That takes overnight or it takes days. So you walk off the golf course thinking you've really done a service, uh, to yourself on your 20-foot putt, but much better would be to do a few 20-foot putts than do other strokes and then come back and mix it up. And it doesn't feel, you don't see that same kind of improvement, but your brain is getting better at judging distances and the motor skills required, you know, to- to make a good stroke. So our intuition leads us astray, and it causes us to spend time in strategies that are not paying us back.

   10. CWChris Williamson17:11

       Okay. So, I mean, that's, uh, to me, conceptually makes sense, but is quite a- probably quite a big departure away from anecdotally what I would have thought good learning should be done. You know, the- the kind of, um, the force it down your throat, so to speak, approach.

   11. PBPeter C. Brown17:32

       Sure.

   12. CWChris Williamson17:32

       You know?

   13. PBPeter C. Brown17:33

       Mm-hmm. Yep.

   14. CWChris Williamson17:34

       The- the- the really, uh, drill it into you, stick to one task for a long time. I know if you, um, if you listened to the podcast that I did with, uh, Dr. Euan Lawson, we discuss in that about multitasking and the Pomodoro technique, deep work and trying to focus wholly on one task. It's not too far of a jump to think that instead of just focusing on revision, you should drill that down again to just focusing on one topic within your revision, right? And I think that- that could quite erroneous-

   15. PBPeter C. Brown18:08

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson18:08

       ... erroneously be...... one step too far in terms of the, um, how specific you're being-

   17. PBPeter C. Brown18:16

       Yes.

   18. CWChris Williamson18:17

       ... with your re- with your revision time. So let's go from the start. Can you explain how learning and memory, or learning and recall relate to each other?

   19. PBPeter C. Brown18:27

       Yeah, sure. Well, memory has, uh, two components. Um, actually, my co-author, uh, Roddy Roediger, uh, his, uh, his field is memory. And, um, uh, he's really, uh, written the break- a lot of the breakthrough material on memory, including, uh, discovering this whole field of false memory. But in any case, um, long-term memory is, is in different parts of the brain than short-term memory. So when, when we're talking about short-term memory, or working memory, it's the list, you go to the grocery store, you maybe remember it long enough to pick up the things, and then maybe y- you might or might not remember you need to stop by the dry cleaner on the way home.

   20. CWChris Williamson19:08

       (laughs)

   21. PBPeter C. Brown19:09

       Um, but that's gone. Uh, yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson19:10

       Is there a, is there a time, is there a, uh, approximate time limit usually on that? 24 hours or?

   23. PBPeter C. Brown19:15

       Not particularly, but I- I- I don't, I don't think so. I think it's, uh, depends on whether you're trying, if you're making an effort to remember it for longer.

   24. CWChris Williamson19:23

       Yeah.

   25. PBPeter C. Brown19:23

       For example, you're- you- you rent a bike and it's got a four-digit, uh, combination lock, and you're trying to remember those four digits.

   26. CWChris Williamson19:31

       Mm-hmm.

   27. PBPeter C. Brown19:31

       Well, you can give yourself, uh, a tool to do that. I was with a friend in, in, um, Adelaide, um, Australia, uh, and she said, "I can't, I can't even remember my PIN number on my card."

   28. CWChris Williamson19:43

       Mm-hmm.

   29. PBPeter C. Brown19:43

       "How am I gonna do this with my bike?" "Well, what are the- what are the numbers?" She said, "It's 5268." And I said, "Well, break it into 52 and 68. What can you do with that?" "Oh, 52 is easy, that's the cards in a deck of cards. And 68, oh, that, um, that's the swirly girly," she said.

   30. CWChris Williamson19:59

       (laughs)
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   I understand. So time…

   1. PBPeter C. Brown30:00

      that becomes a, a mental model that we can build on in other, and connect it to other abilities or other bodies of knowledge.

   2. CWChris Williamson30:07

      I understand. So time and attention there to a degree is, uh, is going to be an important factor that trying, you know, cramming and, and rushing your learning together is not giving you enough time to allow that to settle and then to come back to it, right?

   3. PBPeter C. Brown30:22

      Well, that's exactly right. So it isn't just spacing out the practice of something with intervals between so that you're a little rusty, so it's a little more difficult to do, and that difficulty actually strengthens the-

   4. CWChris Williamson30:34

      Desirable difficulties again, right?

   5. PBPeter C. Brown30:35

      Yeah.... right. But it's also true that, um, i- in a course, if you're a... let's say you're a professor in a course, it's better to, uh, introduce a lot of the material earlier in the course and come back to it and distribute it over, uh, the period of the course. Because, uh, when learning is distributed like that, uh, it sticks better and it has more opportunities to connect with the other related material, instead of doing it in blocked fashion or in a silo.

   6. CWChris Williamson31:08

      Okay.

   7. PBPeter C. Brown31:08

      You know, first we're gonna do this, then we're gonna do that.

   8. CWChris Williamson31:10

      Yeah. So you kind of look... you- you take an overview of the entire map, and then you begin to move through the map piece by piece.

   9. PBPeter C. Brown31:18

      Right. And so if you're managing your time, "I know I'm gonna have a test next Thursday on such and such," um, you don't want to say, "Wednesday is my day I'm dedicating to that." You're better-

   10. CWChris Williamson31:28

       (laughs)

   11. PBPeter C. Brown31:29

       ... off dedicating some... a little, a little bit of time each day between now and then because that, uh, distributing that out over time is gonna help your brain do what it does well. Uh, our- our brains are such that if we go to bed, uh, uh, pondering a challenge or a problem, the brain, we've discovered, is working at that, uh, through the night. And it will, um, throw out irrelevant stuff and try to connect this to other stuff. It's a remarkable thing. So you are kind of, um, e- empowering your brain t- to take some responsibility, uh, f- for learning this material if you start it early and come back to it from time to time, instead of trying to force it, force it into your brain. Uh-

   12. CWChris Williamson32:13

       Well, I'm afraid that, uh, I'm afraid that eight- 18 years of full-time education led me to do everything (laughs) last minute.

   13. PBPeter C. Brown32:20

       Yeah.

   14. CWChris Williamson32:20

       So I'm probably, I'm probably patient zero for how bad you can be at cramming. Um, but, you know, I- I- I can, I can certainly appreciate the times when I have spent a little bit more time over stuff and I have distributed it throughout my week or however it may be. Am I right in thinking... I read a, I read a study recently that talked about the capacity for problem-solving before and after a night's sleep, versus if you had one five-hour chunk or two two-and-a-half-hour chunks spread over two days. And the difference between the group that had the sleep in between and was... their brains were allowed to reset and look at the problem with fresh eyes, the, uh, capacity for them to complete the problem was s- so much, so much more impressive than the group that just had one-

   15. PBPeter C. Brown33:07

       I... Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson33:08

       ... one go at it for five hours, which s- (laughs) to a degree almost sounds counterintuitive, because you think, "Oh, well, I've got to get back into the same head space and I've got to get myself up to speed again. When I start again, I've got to recall all this stuff that I did that I might have forgotten."

   17. PBPeter C. Brown33:20

       Yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson33:20

       But, eh, m- almost slightly counterintuitively, it doesn't seem to be that way. It seems to be that, like you say, distributing it is...

   19. PBPeter C. Brown33:28

       E- uh, there's a really interesting s- study, uh, of, um, medical residents who are learning to reattach tiny vessels with a surgical stitch. And the way in this country they do that, they go away for a day, and there's four lessons. The first... they get a video and then they're given a little bit of rubber tubing called a Penrose drain, and they're, uh, shown how to pass their stitches through and then tie surgical knots. And then they see a video and they're given some synthetic tissue and they practice that. Then they're seeing a video and they get... given a turkey thigh. So there's four videos, four sessions, one day. At the end of the day, they are supposedly on top of this, this, uh, skill.

   20. CWChris Williamson34:09

       Okay.

   21. PBPeter C. Brown34:09

       So in the s- in the study, half the group did it that way, there were 38 of them, and the other half came in and did the first video and practice, and then they went away for a week, and they came back the second week for the second video and practice. And I'm thinking those, those doctors are sitting there thinking, (laughs) "Well, let's see if I can remember. What was that last week?"

   22. CWChris Williamson34:27

       Yeah. Exactly.

   23. PBPeter C. Brown34:28

       "I worked a whole week. My life is busy." You know? And they struggle to kind of recall what it was, and they had this next lesson, and they went away for a week. So it went like this, four weeks. Uh, so they had the exact same training, uh, but those whose learning was spaced out over four weeks, uh, far outs-... uh, exceeded the others in all expert measures. And they were then... they had the surprise test. They were given a, a rat that had a severed aorta, and their challenge was to save the rat, to reattach the a- aorta. And, uh, all of those whose learning was spaced out, uh, succeeded, and, uh, a large percentage of those whose learning wasn't spaced out, uh, were not able to save their rat.

   24. CWChris Williamson35:07

       Oh, dude, u- unlucky if you're a rat. (laughs)

   25. PBPeter C. Brown35:09

       Unlucky if you're a rat, unless you get with the right guys-

   26. CWChris Williamson35:11

       Yeah.

   27. PBPeter C. Brown35:11

       ... or woman.

   28. CWChris Williamson35:12

       I want the d- I want the dis- dispersed guy. I want him.

   29. PBPeter C. Brown35:15

       (laughs)

   30. CWChris Williamson35:16

       (laughs)
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   No, no pressure. …

   1. PBPeter C. Brown45:00

      in the course. Low stakes so that people aren't freaked out by-

   2. CWChris Williamson45:04

      No, no pressure.

   3. PBPeter C. Brown45:05

      ... you know, uh... Yeah, right. You just really dia- really dial down the pressure and have the, the experience and ultimately the habit of recalling, from memory, what this stuff is. And the, and the, if you can do that in a course where you're reaching back to earlier material, as well as more recent stuff, that stuff gets brought forward and better connected. It's a very potent and not very difficult, uh, strategy for helping students get to the middle and the end of their course on top of the material.

   4. CWChris Williamson45:36

      That's interesting. There's a program that I know a lot of my friends who are doctors, uh, medical students use called Anki. I'm not sure if you've-

   5. PBPeter C. Brown45:44

      Yeah, Anki's perfect. Yes.

   6. CWChris Williamson45:44

      Yeah. So Anki's cue cards, right? Randomized cue cards, mostly with multiple-choice questions. And would that fit into your model of consistent low-level testing?

   7. PBPeter C. Brown45:56

      Yes. Anki is great. Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson45:58

      I wish, uh, I wish that I'd known about Anki while I was at, uh, while I was at university. I think it might have made my, my last-minute procrastination tactics a little bit less, uh-

   9. PBPeter C. Brown46:08

      (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson46:08

       ... a little bit less proliferate.

   11. PBPeter C. Brown46:09

       Well, one of the nice things about Anki and some other, uh, online stuff is that you can have it, you can set it up to, to, uh, come to your phone periodically.

   12. CWChris Williamson46:17

       Yeah.

   13. PBPeter C. Brown46:18

       And, um...

   14. CWChris Williamson46:18

       They get, they get reminders. We'll be sat at dinner and, um, I'll, I'll look over-

   15. PBPeter C. Brown46:22

       (laughs)

   16. CWChris Williamson46:22

       ... to one of the guys, and he'll have his, he'll have his Anki cue cards out 'cause his reminder's popped up.

   17. PBPeter C. Brown46:26

       (laughs) Well, if he were in our household, if he were doing anything other than practicing what he's supposed to learn, he'd get a steep scolding from my wife for having his phone at the di-

   18. CWChris Williamson46:36

       Oh, no.

   19. PBPeter C. Brown46:37

       (laughs)

   20. CWChris Williamson46:37

       Oh, no. (laughs) That's a dis-

   21. PBPeter C. Brown46:38

       No, but that's why-

   22. CWChris Williamson46:38

       ... that's a, that's an undesirable difficulty right there.

   23. PBPeter C. Brown46:44

       (laughs)

   24. CWChris Williamson46:44

       (laughs) Okay. So we've got the capacity for recall, we've got the desirable difficulties, and we've got kind of trying to, trying to ignore what your brain is telling you about how your learning is going.

   25. PBPeter C. Brown46:59

       Yeah. I think it helps if, uh, if you can think about stuff you struggle with that you've had these kind of breakthrough moments, it might be... I think of, of, um, people on, uh, BMX stunt bikes.

   26. CWChris Williamson47:13

       Mm-hmm.

   27. PBPeter C. Brown47:14

       Uh, I think of, uh, people, uh, doing video games, trying to find their way to the next level, trying this, trying that. Uh, you know, and, "Oh, yeah, this is what I did last time that worked," kind of thing.

   28. CWChris Williamson47:26

       Mm-hmm.

   29. PBPeter C. Brown47:26

       A- all the different ways that we're not thinking of as academics, but in our lives, where we go through these kinds of space and episodic exposures to something we're trying to master. And then, at some point, you realize it's coming to you. Y- you know, you've kind of got it.

   30. CWChris Williamson47:44

       Yeah.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:11:36

   Yes. I don't think…

   1. CWChris Williamson1:00:00

      shy of, of definition as, as we've done today, it's probably gonna be really hard for people to actually work out where it's right.

   2. PBPeter C. Brown1:00:08

      Yes. I don't think it, uh, it has to be real hard. Um, t- I have t- a couple thoughts. One is that we're encouraging teachers to help students construct their own understanding of the material, as opposed to lecturing, "Here's what the material is," and trying to impart, uh, the lecturer's understanding. So that means the classrooms become much more involved in exercises that engage the students in working through and figuring stuff out.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:00:40

      Mm-hmm.

   4. PBPeter C. Brown1:00:41

      Um, and, uh, so th- that's o- one thought. Um, now I've lost the other one, so ...

   5. CWChris Williamson1:00:49

      (laughs)

   6. PBPeter C. Brown1:00:49

      ... we, we might just have to go ...

   7. CWChris Williamson1:00:51

      Well, I think, you know-

   8. PBPeter C. Brown1:00:51

      Where did you end up with your comment?

   9. CWChris Williamson1:00:53

      Uh-huh.

   10. PBPeter C. Brown1:00:53

       You said, uh ...

   11. CWChris Williamson1:00:54

       It was about, it was about CrossFit, and it was about, um, having a, a higher level of difficulty than you need. So you c- you're, it's train hard-

   12. PBPeter C. Brown1:01:00

       Oh. Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:01:00

       ... train hard, perform easy.

   14. PBPeter C. Brown1:01:04

       ... right. Yeah. I think, uh, I don't know. It's gone. I'm sorry, Chris.

   15. CWChris Williamson1:01:08

       That's okay. (laughs)

   16. PBPeter C. Brown1:01:09

       It'll come back. (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson1:01:10

       That's totally fine. We'll get it in a bit. Um, but no, I, I think you're totally right. I can definitely say, you know, I, I enjoyed my time at Newcastle University. But the course that I was doing, quite often we'd have 200 to 250 people in a lecture theater, and that was for a lot of the, a lot of the modules that I took.

   18. PBPeter C. Brown1:01:29

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:01:29

       And in terms of comprehension and that two-way communication with the person who is disseminating the course information, it was nonexistent. Like you can't, you can't ask questions-

   20. PBPeter C. Brown1:01:39

       Right.

   21. CWChris Williamson1:01:39

       ... of a room of 200 people. You can ba- I mean, they could barely-

   22. PBPeter C. Brown1:01:42

       Right.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:01:42

       ... barely keep us awake because it's such a big room-

   24. PBPeter C. Brown1:01:45

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:01:45

       ... and it's so unengaging, so on and so forth.

   26. PBPeter C. Brown1:01:48

       Right.

   27. CWChris Williamson1:01:48

       So yeah, the, the implications for teachers here are almost as wide as the implications are for students, right?

   28. PBPeter C. Brown1:01:54

       Right. I think that's right, and I think that the revelation for the teacher is, it's really about learning, it's not about teaching. This is about learning. This is about how you can help students become the learners, not you be the teacher. And, uh, uh, the, the, um... Oh, God. I had this other thought came and now it's gone back again.

   29. CWChris Williamson1:02:19

       (laughs) Totally fine.

   30. PBPeter C. Brown1:02:19

       It's just making me... Yeah, I don't know.

Episode duration: 1:11:36