The Secrets of British Football Culture - Peter Crouch (4K)

Chris Williamson 0:00 Do ex-players turn to podcasts because TV punditry feels fake?

Peter Crouch 0:05 (laughs) Um, God. I, I felt like I was maybe one of the first, like, to, to do a podcast. I only did a podcast 'cause I had a book to promote, bizarrely, and, uh, someone said, "Oh, do a podcast." And then I, I genuinely thought no one would listen to it, and then, um, you know, we, we had a laugh doing it, and I probably said a hell of a lot more than I probably should, and then I, and then I realized people were actually listening. You know? It was one of those where I, w- we weren't planning on having a huge following, and then it kind of arrived, and then, I don't know. It was, it was a bit more of, um, the fact that I was being open and honest in a, in a world of football where you're told to be guarded and, and secretive. You know? It's very much like, "Don't say the wrong thing," and, um, and I think the fact that we were open and honest gave it a platform, and people wanted to listen to it, and, um, the, the f- the punditry stuff, yeah, I think it's a little bit more still in that world of, um, stay guarded, don't say the wrong thing, um, whereas podcasts, as, as I'm sure you, uh, you know yourself, you can definitely be yourself a little bit more and show your personality, and I think that's, um, I think that's obviously the, the benefit of them.

Chris Williamson 1:18 What is it about the f- world of football that encourages the players to be so guarded? 'Cause you're right. I ...

Peter Crouch 1:26 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:26 I have an, I have an understanding of the, like, uh, psychology of the motivation of players from other sports, of rock stars.

Peter Crouch 1:36 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:37 Uh, and football players seem to be very sort of dead outside of the, uh, permitted interview at the end of the match, which is 30 seconds long. There's not much going on. What ...

Peter Crouch 1:50 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:50 Is that prescribed, top down?

Peter Crouch 1:52 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:52 Is that something that's cultural, bottom up? What, what's going on?

Peter Crouch 1:55 I do think, I do think it's changing in, in a lot of ways, because I think certainly when I was playing, it was very much, "Go into an interview, do a press conference, but don't say anything." (laughs) And I think that, bizarrely, was our mentality, was, "I wanna come out of this interview having got through it and not said anything too controversial-"

Chris Williamson 2:14 Inflammatory.

Peter Crouch 2:14 "... anything to wind anyone up." Uh, if we've got a derby game on a weekend, I don't want to get their supporters riled up by saying something negative about the other team. I want to go in there and say the, the plainest answers I can possibly say.

Chris Williamson 2:26 Well, there is a reputation among footballers for giving slightly bland answers.

Peter Crouch 2:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 2:31 Yeah.

Peter Crouch 2:31 Exactly right, and I think there are, there's an element of that. Oh, I totally understand, because, um, quite often, I think in a, in a world now where, uh, players have social media, players can have their own voice, um, players can get things across, there's, there's certainly a definite shift in that. I think certainly when I was playing, and before me, the kind of newspapers ran the, the media, really.

Chris Williamson 2:53 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 2:54 And I think something that you say in a newspaper, in a headline, as I'm pretty sure you would know, being on a podcast yourself, is someone takes something you say out of context and puts that in a headline, you know, that can look very different to what you're trying to get across, and I think if you're... Certainly, in, in Britain at that time, most people formed opinions through newspapers. And I think if I'm saying, you know, saying something tongue in cheek about a player on the o- opposition side, um, we all know it's a joke. Everyone in the room knows it's a joke. But if you put that in a headline and, and make it look like it's not a joke, people can get offended and, and people's opinion of you will be warped, and I think certainly, that was the whole, probably, reason behind the fact that we don't want to say anything and we're boring, and if... Most players used to give very boring interviews. I h- I happen to think it is changing a lot now. I think, um, certainly with, through the world of social media, we can see a lot more of players' personalities-

Chris Williamson 3:53 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 3:54 ... podcasts like this. People do want to come on, and you can kind of... You, you're not just a footballer, um, you know, who does a boring interview at the end of the game. You can be a little bit more than that now.

Chris Williamson 4:03 Mm-hmm. Well, I think about UFC fighters who, maybe more of what they do is outside of the sport.

Peter Crouch 4:14 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 4:14 Right? Al- almost all of what they do, boxers too-

Peter Crouch 4:16 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 4:16 ... it is all about the press conference. It's all about the podcast. You know? Look at someone like Ariel Helwani, (inhales) who will have each different fighter from a card that's coming up on UFC or, you know, BKFC or whatever, and, um, that is what they do, and, uh, I, I still... I don't know. E- are we seeing footballers change because they can now counter the narrative in the mainstream press?

Peter Crouch 4:40 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 4:40 They can always just put up an Instagram story or they can address these things directly.

Peter Crouch 4:43 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 4:43 Is it your opinion that because you had no direct access to be able to put something out to the fans or to the world, other than, again, through the same newspaper that just said-

Peter Crouch 4:54 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 4:54 ... something mean and out of context about you previously-

Peter Crouch 4:56 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 4:56 ... that it meant everyone was a lot more scared about getting stuff wrong?

Peter Crouch 4:59 Everyone was petrified, genuinely petrified. Like, and you gotta think about it, like, quite often in football, you know, um, it's working class background. You know, lads are coming from tough environments, um, you know, maybe not the most educated, and, and that's, that's genuinely the case, um, and I think you're then put into a press conference with, what I would say at the time, you know, very kind of well-educated people trying to make you trip up-

Chris Williamson 5:25 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 5:25 ... on your words or s- say things that you don't wanna say. And I think, of course, that young lad, 18, 19 years of age, is gonna be pretty guarded, (laughs) you know, in an environment like that. And I think that is the, you know, certainly has been the case. I think with regards to boxing, you have said, like, like you've said there, um, it has become a show more than the... I mean, quite often, the, the, the boxing takes kind of a back seat to the, this whole, you know, performance beforehand.

Chris Williamson 5:51 Everything is WWE.

Peter Crouch 5:53 Yeah, it feels like, you know, we're, we're all trying to kind of sell subscriptions and sell, uh, tickets, and, and I totally understand it. You know, you want to be the biggest spectacle you can, and you know, there's people behind the scenes that want to make a hell of a lot of money from it, and they are.

Chris Williamson 6:06 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 6:06 But, um, yeah, I mean, quite often, I think it's almost pulling the wool over the eyes of the, of the fans in some degree to say, you know-... two, two people that look like they r-r-really hate each other probably don't.

Chris Williamson 6:19 No. They're just selling the fact.

Peter Crouch 6:20 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 6:21 I'm, I, I'm ... As you're speaking there, I'm wondering whether most team sports tend to not be like that, and I think that that's the case. I don't think as many basketball players ... Steph Curry isn't giving tons of interviews talking shit about other people.

Peter Crouch 6:39 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 6:39 Um, baseball, not the same. Uh, cricket, I guess, but I suppose cricketers are quite placid by nature, and the sport is a l- a little bit more gentlemanly.

Peter Crouch 6:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 6:47 So, like, the shit talk would be of a different kind-

Peter Crouch 6:48 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 6:49 ... if you were to do that. But, uh, when I think about tennis, fucking Novak Djokovic was just on Jay Shetty's show.

Peter Crouch 6:54 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 6:55 Um, so I'm wondering whether there's maybe something different about you're part of a team, and, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, Peter, what'd you just say?"

Peter Crouch 7:02 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 7:02 There's 10 other guys on the pitch that are at the mercy of that shit thing that you just said yesterday.

Peter Crouch 7:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 7:06 Like, we're all ... You, everyone's given a stick. Um, so you're, uh, uh, the ... Uh, responsible-

Peter Crouch 7:11 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 7:12 ... for the blast radius of the bullshit around you. Does that make sense?

Peter Crouch 7:16 Yeah, and also, I think, you know, with a, with a team sport like that, there's a, there's an element of, you know, still being at school. You don't ... Like, you would wanna fit in.

Chris Williamson 7:23 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 7:23 You know, if you're in a, in a s- in a single sport, if you're a boxer or a golfer, you know, y- you can't say what you like. It's on you, right? And I think, you know, if we ... I, I always remember. It was kinda Jamie Carragher who g- who, who really drilled it into me when I was at Liverpool. Um, you know, going to the press conference, don't say anything to kind of wind up the opposition or give them an o- opportunity. You know, the, the, the Man United game, Man United-Liverpool game, for instance, was ... It was such a huge game. The Liverpool-Everton game or any Champions League semifinal, like, anything you said in that press conference was ... It was almost ... I remember him kind of almost coaching you through it. He'd be like, "Don't say this. Don't say that. Don't wind them up in this way." You ... And, and I'm going in there thinking of all the things that Jamie's told me to say (laughs) -

Chris Williamson 8:09 (laughs)

Peter Crouch 8:09 ... in the press conference 'cause he's think ... You know, he's, he's, he was more experienced than m- me at the time, and he's just trying to help me out in the fact that you don't want something blazoned all over the newspaper, all over Sky Sports News. You don't wanna say the wrong thing, and I think that was why, quite often, footballers give very mundane interviews.

Chris Williamson 8:27 That's a great get-out-of-jail-free card if somebody purposefully, actually just gives one because, "I didn't have anything to say that day. I was being tr- I was being tactical and strategic."

Peter Crouch 8:35 (laughs) Yeah, there you go.

Chris Williamson 8:36 I was solving it, but-

Peter Crouch 8:36 Also, there's some boring footballers out there as well.

Chris Williamson 8:38 That might contribute

Chris Williamson 8:39 too.

Peter Crouch 8:39 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 8:39 Um, so I think ... I said before, I think there's archetypes of psychology in, in some sports, you know, sort of golfers being very precise, maybe a little bit autistic, baseball players being sort of superstitious and maybe a little bit obsessive. What is the psychological archetype, the common psychological archetype, of top-flight footballers in your experience?

Peter Crouch 9:01 Yeah, I think, um ... Look, I got to a, to a top level, right? I got to, you know, Premier League. I played for my country. I played in the Champions League, and, you know, I've, I've won a small amount, but I ... You know, I'm very proud of the career I had. But I still class myself as, yeah, I got to a top level, but I would not class myself as, as, as elite, um, because I, I saw the elite, and that was, that was a different mentality to what I had. I, I, I enjoyed myself. I, I won games, and I enjoyed it, you know, whereas, you know, we'd win something, or I'd get to a final, and I'd get, I'd sit back afterwards and go, "That was fucking amazing. Loved it," whereas the players ... I'm just talking certainly the players I played with for England, Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney, um, John Terry, that kind of player, um, who was multiple, and multiple winners, you know, Rio Ferdinand. They just did not look like they enjoyed it ever, and, um, like, their ... It was always the next thing. It was like, you know, "Well, yeah, we've won that game, but we could've done that," or, you know, the, "We've won that, but tomorrow we're training again." And the ... And, and not, not just that. It rubs off on everyone else around you, um, and if you look at the, you know, the, certainly the team in 2005 that, that won the Champions League with Liverpool, um, in Istanbul, um, not the greatest team to ever win a Champions League. Let's be, let's be perfectly honest, but, you know, that, that mentality that Gerrard had, I thought, and, and Jamie Carragher certainly at that time, kind of dragged that team to success. And I think that rubs off on other people, and, uh, that wo- that is the mentality that I would say is, is the best of the best, is, is, I think they would ... There's probably regrets in there, and there's a little bit of pain.

Chris Williamson 10:42 Yeah.

Peter Crouch 10:42 Because they probably look back, some of those players now, and think, "I wish I'd just enjoyed that."

Chris Williamson 10:47 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 10:47 You know?

Chris Williamson 10:48 But they'll look at you with a sense of envy-

Peter Crouch 10:51 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 10:51 ... and think, "God, Peter just had so much fun."

Peter Crouch 10:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:54 You know, he looks back with fond playfulness, and I have this sort of weird reverse stoicism, where I didn't let myself feel the wins, but I did let myself feel the failures.

Peter Crouch 11:05 Yeah, and I, and I don't know what's right or wrong there. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, if I had, if I had that kinda mentality ... And don't ... I'm not ... I wasn't unprofessional. Do you know what I mean? I, I was ... Obviously, the minute I walked through to training ground, I'm switched on. But I did sit back and go, like, or w- you know, I'd watch match of the day and go, "I was great there," you know? (laughs) "I f- I did really well there"-

Chris Williamson 11:25 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 11:25 ... whereas they, they would always be look at the negatives and try and improve, and of course, I tried to improve as well, but I did enjoy the fact that we were having success.

Chris Williamson 11:34 In your experience, did those people just have that for football, or did that bleed into the rest of their life? And then to compare that to you too-

Peter Crouch 11:42 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 11:43 ... is that something that you find relatively easy with the other stuff, with playing with the kids-

Peter Crouch 11:48 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 11:48 ... with doing the podcast, with starting a business, with y- y- enjoying your time on holiday and work and all the rest of it? My, my point being, I wonder how much of that is you are an elite performer within this pursuit, and this is the mindset that's made you so.

Peter Crouch 12:00 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:00 So ... And you are a obsessive, typically negatively focused person-

Peter Crouch 12:07 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:07 ... which means that you pay a lot of attention to where things are going wrong and you improve, but that's just you-

Peter Crouch 12:12 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:12 ... and that is global. That's across your entire life. Is that how you-

Peter Crouch 12:15 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:15 Like, these people are like that in and-

Peter Crouch 12:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:17 ... uh, on the pitch and off the pitch in both, both camps?

Peter Crouch 12:19 Oh, I would say so, yeah. And, and, and, and in all honesty, I'm probably doing myself a little bit of disservice of the fact that I am like that as well. Like, you know, I think when you get to that level of-... of sport and winning matters, right, i- it really matters, um, then I do think you take that into, into every aspect of your life, and I think that's a good thing. Like-

Chris Williamson 12:38 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 12:39 ... you know, I don't let my, I don't let my kids win at anything really. Um, you know, my, my, my wife's saying, you know, "Just, just let her win," and I'm like, "N- no." Like (laughs) -

Chris Williamson 12:50 (laughs)

Peter Crouch 12:50 ... and I come back (laughs) ... I'll come back and say, you know, like, "I, I, I destroyed her." She's like 14, you know? I'm like, "Played tennis and I wanna win. I wanna beat her."

Chris Williamson 12:59 You do know that one day...

Peter Crouch 13:00 Uh, yeah, but that, that I think, 'cause my dad was like it with me, he would not let me win at anything, and then when I got to the point where I, I did beat him, it meant so much more. Because I think if... Sh- my little girl's really good at tennis, and, um, and I just... I- I, obviously she's getting to the point where it's, you know, she's good. But obviously the w- the moment she does beat me is the moment she's gonna f- she's gonna feel so good, and I think it's all that pain that she's gone through before is gonna be worth it. And I generally... I, I, I believe that.

Chris Williamson 13:32 That's gonna be her Champions League.

Peter Crouch 13:33 Yeah, I b- I believe that. My dad did it to me. I was playing tennis and we had, used to have these battles, and my mum used to come down and I, I mean, she'd, she'd come down for five minutes, we'd both tell her, in no uncertain terms, to leave. It was so aggressive. People used to come down to the, to the park to watch me and my dad's games, and, um, they were so... it, it was, it was intense. And it got to the stage where I was just about to beat him and he pu- he pulled a hamstring.

Chris Williamson 13:58 (laughs)

Peter Crouch 13:58 And, um, and I got home, I said, I said, "Dad," I was over the other side of the court and I said, "Dad, don't. Don't you dare." And he said, "I can't help it. It's gone." Anyway, we get back and I, you know, we've, we've... he's carried on this, this thing for ages, and then I've got back and I've sat down, and then he's just gone, "You still never beat me, now have you?" (laughs)

Chris Williamson 14:20 (laughs)

Peter Crouch 14:21 Uh, and I was like, "Oh," you know, and we never played again. Never played again.

Chris Williamson 14:25 Wow.

Peter Crouch 14:25 That was it, yeah. But, um, you know, I, I don't know if I'll go that far, but-

Chris Williamson 14:29 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 14:29 ... I would... I definitely think that there is a, there is a lesson in, you know, you need to learn to, yeah, I think, I think to, to lose, and then it's definitely means more when you win-

Chris Williamson 14:40 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 14:40 ... uh, because you've earned it.

Chris Williamson 14:41 So those players, the ones that you'd say are sort of-

Peter Crouch 14:44 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 14:44 ... top of the top elite. I mean, you know, even from the outside, somebody that I've caught a bit of a glimpse of this, would be, uh, Cristiano Ronaldo-

Peter Crouch 14:51 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 14:52 ... uh, uh, as far as I can see. How old is he? 41? 42? Something like that.

Peter Crouch 14:55 I think 40 as well, yeah.

Chris Williamson 14:55 Yeah, and still looks fantastic-

Peter Crouch 14:57 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 14:57 ... still very aggressive with that. I don't know how balanced, at least some of the stuff I've seen, it seems, "Oh, like this guy's got..." But he's also got like an infinity team powering him and this big engine that's behind him, so it's yeah.

Peter Crouch 15:08 Yeah, but I think that, that was in him, that was in him very early. I, I've played against Cristiano when, uh, no one knew who he was. We had, uh, Quaresma on one ring- wing, and, and Ronaldo was on the other, and, uh, Portugal versus England under-21s. No one knew who he was, and, um, oh my God, he was, he was absolutely sensational, uh, as you can imagine. I mean, he was... the tricks, the flicks, he was, he was a machine. And then he came to Manchester United, and I remember Rio telling me, um... you know, and this was very early on, I mean, uh, he must've been 21, 22, and, you know, he's not even... barely kicks a ball in the Premier League, and, um, he's telling Rio and, you know, various other people in the team that he wants to be the best player in the world. And I think, you know, th- that, that, that takes a certain type of person to say that when you're so far away from being there.

Chris Williamson 15:54 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 15:54 You've got amazing talent, you've, you, you know, you've got- definitely got the ability to get there, but the fact that he's, he's... was saying that at such an early age, and he had one goal and that was to, to be the best player on the planet, and, and then to achieve it is, is incredible.

Chris Williamson 16:09 How receptive are players to that kind of bravado? Because I think when you talk about, again, solo sport, UFC, right, you think the Conor McGregors of the world, the best shit talkers in the world, Colby Covington, whatever, you go, "Well, I mean, you can do what you want." Maybe your coach will say, (huffs) "You idiot, you shouldn't have said that." But really, there's no one else that you're at the mercy of, and it's a really, really good point. Uh, kind of the same, th- the difference between being, uh, Taylor Swift and the, Oli Sykes, the lead singer of Bring Me The Horizon.

Peter Crouch 16:38 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:38 If you do or say a thing as a solo artist, fine, it's on your shoulders. But if you do or say a thing with the rest of the band mates-

Peter Crouch 16:45 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:46 ... you, you n- now need to go and answer to them on the bus or in the dressing room or whatever.

Peter Crouch 16:50 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:50 So if... I imagine that teams want confident players because a good player will help the performance of the team. But there's this trade-off between how much that person gets to capture the limelight and how much that person steals all of the attention-

Peter Crouch 17:06 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 17:06 ... and there's this battle between the two things. So, uh, is there a concern about someone getting too big for their boots?

Peter Crouch 17:13 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 17:13 Uh, uh, w- what is the reception of somebody that's got bravado like that like?

Peter Crouch 17:16 Well, the, the thing is... Listen, I've played with other players as well who've probably said the same thing and got nowhere near it, you know, and obviously they get ridiculed for it. Um, I think it's good to have. I think, you know, there are certain players like, you know, Zlatan Ibrahimović, someone who, who's outspoken but backs it up, and I think there's nothing better than, and there's nothing we love more than someone, Floyd Mayweather, you know, someone at the top of their game who talks the talk but backs it up with results. And I think, you know, we've... in sports especially, like, I love all sports, and the characters are the people that make it, right? The, the people that say they're gonna do something and then they do it-

Chris Williamson 17:52 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 17:53 ... is just... And you know because the whole, you know, the, that everyone watching, once they say they're gonna do something, th- everyone wants them to fail. Um, it's that... so there's something, certainly in this country, in England, we are v-

Chris Williamson 18:05 (laughs)

Peter Crouch 18:06 We absolutely love people failing. Someone said to me, I remember, like, buying a nice car, if you buy a nice car in England, people want to key it. You know, if you're in America or the US, people celebrate the fact that you-

Chris Williamson 18:16 Yeah.

Peter Crouch 18:16 ... you've done well.

Chris Williamson 18:17 Yeah.

Peter Crouch 18:17 You know? But there's something about that, uh, in this country that I like. Um, and, and-

Chris Williamson 18:21 It's definitely not gonna let you get too big for your boots.

Peter Crouch 18:23 Yeah, there you go. And I think, you know, Cristiano would've been ridiculed at that, at that age. There's players far more on a, on a...... uh, far more ahead of him at that time. But the fact that he had that goal and achieved it is something you gotta respect.

Chris Williamson 18:37 Mm-hmm. What did being inside of Premier League dressing rooms treat- teach you about masculinity?

Peter Crouch 18:43 Um, pshh, well yeah, that... I mean, a- a hell of a lot. Like, uh, you had to grow, had to grow up very quickly. Um, I mean, I remember being 14. I mean, it's totally different time now, but I mean some of the, some of the, the dressing rooms I was in, in- in that age and you're playing with kind of men, you know. And I, I kind of didn't... I didn't develop till a little bit later, you know. I'm 14, 15, very skinny, very tall, um, and I'm, I'm in dressing room with, with men who are, you know, just hard men, you know. And like the coaches were, were incredibly tough, you know. Like, the-

Chris Williamson 19:20 What youth set-up were you in?

Peter Crouch 19:21 I was at, um, I was at QPR for a little while, and then I went to Tottenham, um, when Gerry Francis moved there. And I went... I ended up back at QPR and I made my debut. But yeah, I was at Tottenham and it was hard. And, and also, you know, I, I grew up in a, in quite a nice environment, you know. And, um, you know, m- my dad obviously said to me quite often I was too nice. I had to, I had to change. I had to be someone different on the pitch-

Chris Williamson 19:42 Yeah.

Peter Crouch 19:42 ... um, because I'm playing in an environment where, you know, people are fighting for their lives, you know. And their... You know, that tackle that means something to me is life or death to them. Do you know what I mean? I had... So I had to make that life or death for me.

Chris Williamson 19:56 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 19:56 Um, so I had to just change my mentality and be a different person when I went over the white line-

Chris Williamson 20:00 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 20:00 ... and change the, the kind of character I am off the field.

Chris Williamson 20:04 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 20:04 Kinda always tried to remain the person that I was, but just be a different person on the pitch. Um, and, and I think that environment definitely helped me, um, certainly become the, yeah, become the person and the, um, and the player that I was, definitely.

Chris Williamson 20:20 I played a lot of cricket as a kid. I played for- to a pretty high standard. I played for Durham and then I did some training stuff with England. And, uh, that's the same. I mean, even maybe younger, because the thing that you get to do with cricket, as a sport which isn't as much about physicality and is much more about technique, you can, as a 13... I- I started playing adults at 13.

Peter Crouch 20:39 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 20:39 And, you know, I'd be playing maybe fourths at 13, and then I probably start... I think I had my first seconds game when I was 14. And then, you know, you're playing twos and ones, and then you're gonna play... You're already playing county at youth set-up, and then you're playing, you know, Durham Academy, Durham Seconds.

Peter Crouch 20:55 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 20:56 And, uh, yeah, you're right. You're 14 years old in communal showers-

Peter Crouch 21:01 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 21:02 ... with, with guys. And another interesting quirk in the game of cricket is that you're in the pavilion for 50% of the game.

Peter Crouch 21:12 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 21:12 Unless you're batting. Uh, your time in the dressing room is maybe more than any other sport except for baseball. But the difference with baseball being that their dressing room is on the pitch, so it doesn't have as much privacy.

Peter Crouch 21:24 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 21:24 So yeah, it's a real fucking baptism of fire. You know, there was one day where my head got shaved. Like, I was in-

Peter Crouch 21:30 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 21:30 You know, I'm in the pavilion, and I, I... My dad saw me go into the dressing room with hair, and then by the time that we'd finished batting, we hadn't lost too many wickets, so no one had come out. I came out without hair. (laughs)

Peter Crouch 21:41 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 21:42 And so... (laughs)

Peter Crouch 21:43 I did the... I had the exact same thing. I went on to a, a, a, the mil-... We played the Milk Cup in Ireland, but we were still at school. I was, uh, I was playing the under-16s and, and that, that team, those lads, they were, they had already gone full-time. Um, so like I was still at school and we were kind of part-time, so they had a, a real tight bond.

Chris Williamson 22:00 Squad.

Peter Crouch 22:00 And then we were like three players who were playing a year above. You can only imagine, you know. We were the whipping boys, right?

Chris Williamson 22:05 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 22:06 So yeah, it was like, "I don't want to have my head shaved." Well, that-

Chris Williamson 22:09 It's happening.

Peter Crouch 22:09 ... that's not an option.

Chris Williamson 22:10 Yeah.

Peter Crouch 22:10 Um, so yeah, you get your head shaved and you kinda muck in and you want to, but you, you're not really kind of on the inside of it. And I, I found that tough at first, but um... And you know, you... I think to myself, "God, it would've been easier to stay at home and not go to training," or... But, you know, getting through that and overcoming those things is, is definitely a feather in your cap. And I think it... You know, it is such an old school way of looking at things. And you know, the coaches were so hard on you, and it was whether or not you could sink or swim. It was basically, "Look, are you hard enough to deal with this?"

Chris Williamson 22:42 Survival of the fittest.

Peter Crouch 22:42 Yeah. And they were overly tough on you. But I, I, I do think... You know, I, I know it's a bit old school and we can't do that now, but I do think it made me sh-... It did make me stronger. And I... You know, the fact that there were certainly some players who would sit here with you now and say it was bullying, it was terrible, 'cause they didn't, like, make it, you know. They didn't... They, they, they-

Chris Williamson 23:02 They were selected out.

Peter Crouch 23:03 Yeah, and they, they did find that tough and they couldn't deal with it, and I totally understand why. But the fact that I did manage to overcome those hurdles definitely made me, made me stronger m- mentally, and you know, definitely made me sh-... I think, stronger for, for everything that life throws at you.

Chris Williamson 23:20 We'll get back to talking in just one minute, but first, I need to tell you about Eight Sleep. If you struggle to stay asleep because your body gets too hot or too cold, this is going to help. Eight Sleep just released their brand new Pod 5. It now includes a temperature regulating duvet that works with the smart mattress to deliver full body climate control. And the new base even comes with a built-in speaker so you can fall asleep to white noise or stay awake listening to me. And it's got upgraded biometric sensors that quietly run health checks every night, spotting patterns like abnormal heartbeats, disrupted breathing, or sudden changes in HRV. It'll even start warming or cooling your bed an hour before you get in, which is why Eight Sleep has been clinically proven to increase total sleep by up to one hour every night. Best of all, they've got a 30-day sleep trial, so you can buy it and sleep on it for 29 nights, and if you don't love it, they'll give you your money back. Plus, they ship internationally. Right now, you can get up to $350 off the Pod 5 by going through the link in the description below or heading to EightSleep.com/ModernWisdom and using the code "ModernWisdom" at checkout. That's E-I-G-H-TSleep.com/ModernWisdom and "ModernWisdom" at checkout.

Chris Williamson 24:25 What about m- masculinity and that sort of male posturing thing when you get to-... everybody being a professional player.

Peter Crouch 24:34 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 24:35 Um, I have no idea what this looks like inside of the dressing room or on the training ground. Lots of big squad, big-ish squads.

Peter Crouch 24:43 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 24:43 You know, got a bunch of physios, some S&Cs, et cetera, et cetera. Looks like a big group of people that are all moving around.

Peter Crouch 24:49 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 24:49 Um, it's, our basketball team, which has got a much smaller team-

Peter Crouch 24:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 24:53 ... and squad size. What's that like? What does masculinity in professional-

Peter Crouch 24:56 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 24:56 ... football look like?

Peter Crouch 24:57 Um, well, it's, it's incredible. It's, it's how you imagine it, I think. It's very kind of macho, dog eat dog world, you know? I think people want to take your place. Um, you know, any weakness is preyed upon. Um, the, the, the, if you look at the masculinity side of it, I suppose it's very much, um, you know, we... You, you have to man up basically, and I think, uh, certainly things, uh, nowadays it's a lot, it's a lot better. But, you know, if I went in to see the manager and said, "You know, I'm struggling a little bit mentally," it'd be like, "Well, you, you drop then," you know? That y- you obviously can't, you can't deal with it, you can't... You know, that kind of struggle, I think it's very, was very old school. I think it's very different now. Um, but I wouldn't, I- I wouldn't show any weakness whatsoever. Even if I was feeling down about anything-

Chris Williamson 25:45 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 25:45 ... you, you just don't show it, and I think that was, you know, s- kind of environment that I grew up in and the environment that, uh, I played in. Um, but I do think, I do think it's much better now and, you know, certainly men in general talk about things more now, don't they?

Chris Williamson 25:58 But is that the same inside of the dressing room? Have you got any indication that it's changed when it gets to football?

Peter Crouch 26:03 Yeah, I think so. I think it, I think it's a lot more accommodating than you would expect now. I think, you know, it's very multicultural. Like, you know, everyone's very d- from very different walks of life, um, all over the world, um, different beliefs, religions, um, you know. Certainly when I was in the youth team and coming through, it was very, it was very English, um, kind of British culture that-

Chris Williamson 26:27 Yeah.

Peter Crouch 26:27 ... was policing the dressing rooms.

Chris Williamson 26:27 I mean, it's superbly diverse now.

Peter Crouch 26:29 Yeah, that's what I mean. I think, you know, there's, uh, uh, the, the... I think all corners of the globe is covered in the dressing room now, and I think, um, certainly when I was coming through that, that kind of British, it was this macho, almost drinking culture, if you like, um, I think that's gone now.

Chris Williamson 26:46 Talking about diversity, there are no publicly gay Premier League players.

Peter Crouch 26:51 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 26:51 Each Premier League club can register a squad of up to 25 players plus unlimited under-21s. 20 clubs, that's 500 registered first team players any given time. If you include all of the under-21s who make senior appearances, the number rises to about 600 to 650 active players across a season. Currently, zero active Premier League male players are publicly out as gay. Statistically speaking, there should be 20 to 35, same in LaLiga, same in the German league, ch- same in the French league, and there is one gay guy in Serie A in Italy.

Peter Crouch 27:24 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 27:24 Why?

Peter Crouch 27:26 Oh, God, I could not tell you. I think, I genuinely think now if someone came out as gay in, in the dressing room, I'd, uh, I think they'd be very well supported. I think in those, in a Premier League dressing room, yeah, of course you're gonna have idiots in the crowd. I think people that are, you know, maybe stuck in the Dark Ages, we've seen it with racism, um, you know, it's still, it's still not completely kicked out, is it?

Chris Williamson 27:52 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 27:53 I think, you know, we've seen, uh, an incident recently, um, at a Liverpool match, um, with Bournemouth, that would, you know... That, that, that proves that. Uh, I think it's got far better. I think there's, you know, there's still a way to go. Um, but with, with regards to, to someone coming out, I genuinely believe that, um, you know, if there is someone out there, you would urge them to come forward and-

Chris Williamson 28:13 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 28:14 ... if they want to. And, and of course it's their decision because if they don't want to, that's, that's-

Chris Williamson 28:17 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 28:17 ... totally their decision as well. But, um, I, I do think it will be well supported, um, as, as regards to why... I mean, I played with Thomas Hitzlsperger, who, who, who di- who has come out, uh, as gay. Uh, I played with him at Aston Villa, um, but yet, you know, he felt he, he couldn't come out, uh, at the time, um, for, for whatever reason. Uh, he came out afterwards. But, um, I'll say I've spoke to Thomas and, you know, we've, um, you know, there's... He, he, he's feel- he's felt very well supported since he has come out, so it's just a shame he, he didn't do it while he was playing.

Chris Williamson 28:50 Yeah. I mean, it's a good point. Uh, it's your choice. You don't need to.

Peter Crouch 28:54 Exactly, yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:55 It's not your... You're, you're, you are a professional athlete. I do not need to know about your sexuality, absolutely. That being said, uh, people talk a lot about lots of things that they're getting up to, right?

Peter Crouch 29:06 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 29:06 "Uh, eh, th- this is my new car that I've just bought." "And this is my new dog." "And I just got married and I did whatever." And yeah, if we've got this, you know, 600 to 650 player ecosystem that exists in the Premier League each year, which is cycling through, right?

Peter Crouch 29:20 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 29:20 That's not fixed. That's-

Peter Crouch 29:22 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 29:22 ... you know, over the last decade with, uh, people moving in and out, you're talking maybe close to 2,000, maybe 3,000. Uh, and if you were to look at sort of the rates of, uh, uh, how often you would assume there would be at least one gay player in this group, you're talking 20 to 35 people.

Peter Crouch 29:39 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 29:39 And it's none, and, um, regardless of whether the locker room and the press and your fans would be fine with that or maybe even, like, in support of that, maybe it would be ev- you know, be a, a positive. There is evidently something, true or not, that is lingering to cause those players... It, it, it's almost 100% a guarantee that there are n- that there is not no gay players-

Peter Crouch 30:10 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 30:10 ... right, in the Premier League? So it has to be either they're focused on being professional. Mm, yeah, maybe. But I get the sense that given a, "I feel completely liberated to talk about whatever I want," most players might actually like to have-

Peter Crouch 30:24 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 30:24 ... their sexuality out there, uh, but they don't. So this, whether it's real or imagined, there's something lingering, I think, that's causing, uh-

Peter Crouch 30:33 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 30:33 ... guys... Because it's not the same in rugby. Uh, uh, I don't know whether it would be the same in cricket. I wonder as well, you mentioned before about the class thing.I wonder how much of this is because football is still very much dominated by, uh, working class in a way that rugby, perhaps, isn't the same-

Peter Crouch 30:51 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 30:51 ... and the way that cricket, perhaps, isn't the same. Uh, tennis also not the same. Uh, so yeah, maybe it's a class thing too.

Peter Crouch 30:59 Yeah, per- perhaps. I mean, I, I don't know. I mean, it, it, the, with, w- I've spoke to Thomas about it, and you know, he felt he didn't, he, he wanted to concentrate on his football. He felt a bit, uh, a lot, uh, you know, a lot of it a distrac- distraction to him. He also thought, you know, "I don't know what the fallout's gonna be because, because no one's really done it while they've, while they've been playing at the top level." Um, so yeah, it's a, it's a difficult one, um, to, to navigate. Um, but I genuinely think, you know, from everyone I've been involved, been involved in football a lot time-

Chris Williamson 31:27 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 31:28 ... a long time now, and I do think that there would be a tremendous amount of support for someone that did.

Chris Williamson 31:33 Maybe interesting when it happens.

Peter Crouch 31:34 Yeah, would be, yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:35 Gonna be, like, a really kind of a m- monumental moment when that does happen.

Peter Crouch 31:40 Yeah, I mean, and you know, like you say, the, the statistics or the, the, the, the chance of it happening is... You would expect it to, to, to happen. But, um, no, it hasn't done so far, but, uh, you know, I think it would be, uh, probably a good thing for the game when it, when it does.

Chris Williamson 31:57 Mm. What was it you were saying, Dean, about, uh, there's only one guy in Formula 1 as well? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, you pick your, pick your favorite sport of choice, and, uh... I don't know. It, it's, uh, it, it's strange to me, uh, not to harp on the sort of pride acceptance thing, but, um, people that criticize pride, even my gay friends that criticize pride, and they're like, "Okay, we've done, like, you know, we've sort of owned all of the different territory that we need to," and I, I think in many ways brands change their display photos on Twitter to have a, a, a rainbow behind for Pride Month and all the rest of the stuff. Like, you know, that looks, looks like it's pretty well-conquered to me. But then when we look at elite sport, w- the numbers don't really seem to stack up.

Peter Crouch 32:46 Mm.

Chris Williamson 32:46 Um, so it seems like, you know, there kind of is work to be done in some of these ways, or maybe it's the case that all players... Well, actually, that's another good point. I'm talking against myself here.

Peter Crouch 32:57 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 32:58 I'll, I'll let you know when I'm done.

Peter Crouch 32:59 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 32:59 Um, I'm just having an argument over here. Uh, how many players, straight players, do you know about what they're doing? With their relationship?

Peter Crouch 33:08 Well, that's what I mean. Like, uh, if I'm a footballer, I know how I feel, right? And if I, if I was gay, I think I'd be quite open about it, but I don't think I would be shouting it from the rooftops either. Like, I'm, I'm not gonna do a press conference and say, you know, "My sexual preference is" (laughs) Like, "I- I'm-"

Chris Williamson 33:25 Yeah, if you went out and Jamie Carragher was like, "Right, Peter, we really need you-"

Peter Crouch 33:28 I just wanna get this off my chest.

Chris Williamson 33:30 "...but don't say much. Don't say much," and you go out and you go, "My sexual preferences, ladies and gentlemen, let me tell you."

Peter Crouch 33:34 That's what I mean. I d- it's, we're there to play football, you know, and I think, of course, I th- yeah, we... If someone is gay, and I'd love them to feel comfortable enough to come out if they want to-

Chris Williamson 33:46 Mm.

Peter Crouch 33:46 ... but having said that, we're, w- we're not there for that, you know. We, I'm not there to broadcast what, you know, my preferences are. I'm there to play football, I'm there to do a job, something that I love doing, and actually, you know, that might take something away from the job that I'm doing.

Chris Williamson 34:02 It's certainly gonna be a distraction.

Peter Crouch 34:02 You know, and I think, y- you know, we're, we're all professional. I think footballers just wanna get on with playing and doing something they love and done since they were a kid, and that potentially could be a distraction. So, that if there are people out there that, you know, don't feel that they wanna come out that, then that's totally fine as well.

Chris Williamson 34:17 Interesting what you were saying before about how, um, previously, there was a disadvantage because you didn't have a direct route to be able to broadcast what it is that you've got going on, uh, and in many ways, that was a weakness. But now that it's an availability, there's almost this sense of, like, entitlement or obligation. It's like, "Well, tell me."

Peter Crouch 34:35 Mm.

Chris Williamson 34:35 "Tell me what you've got going on. Is that a new car?"

Peter Crouch 34:36 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 34:36 "What happened with the dog?"

Peter Crouch 34:37 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 34:37 "Is the dog's, is it, like, how's the dog doing?" You know-

Peter Crouch 34:40 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 34:40 ... "Has it been spayed yet?" If, like-

Peter Crouch 34:41 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 34:42 ... there's this, uh, uh, necessity for everything to be keeping up with the Kardashians.

Peter Crouch 34:46 Mm. Well, I- I- I've found this myself, like, um, because I do a podcast with my wife, and, um, you know, the stuff that we talk about at home, quite often we talk about on the podcast. But I- I've kind of blurred the lines a little bit now, where I'm like, people will come up to me and be, "Oh, how's, how's Caz doing?" You know, and that's my Abby's friend, you know, talk about the dog. And I'm f- like, "How do you know these things?" And I just forget 'cause-

Chris Williamson 35:10 Oh shit, I did it.

Peter Crouch 35:11 Yeah, we, we've, we've talked about it, right? And because we're sitting there on our couch, we do it at home, the stuff that we say, you know, I forget sometimes what's out there and what's not-

Chris Williamson 35:22 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 35:23 ... and, you know, people will come up to us in a, in a supermarket and say things about our lives, and I'll be like, "How the hell?" And then, uh, it just dawned on me that, in fact, we've talked about it.

Chris Williamson 35:30 That's last week's episode.

Peter Crouch 35:31 Yeah, yeah, exactly right. Um, but, uh, but I enjoy it and people l- seem to enjoy it with us. So, the more the, you know, the more that that c- can continue, the better, because we love doing it.

Chris Williamson 35:40 Mm. Yeah, going back to the sort of football culture thing, it certainly seemed like if you're a very successful player, Ronaldo-esque, uh, you can get away with a little bit more. Does that encourage or tend teams who are winning to continue to sort of s- um, turn the screw of maybe toxic, uh, culture in terms of, uh, work rate, how hard and unforgiving people are, that sort of backbiting-

Peter Crouch 36:13 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 36:14 ... uh, ruthlessness, which doesn't necessarily bind a team together. It's 11 individuals or, what, 25-

Peter Crouch 36:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 36:21 ... squad group of individuals as opposed to a 25 squad group that are all working together. But if, um, everything is going well and you're moving up through the rankings, uh, everyone's sort of, "We, we don't wanna change what appears to be working at the moment."

Peter Crouch 36:35 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 36:35 I have to assume that, uh, success permits, uh, things to become a little bit more extreme-

Peter Crouch 36:41 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 36:41 ... in that way.

Peter Crouch 36:42 Yeah. I, I think, I've, I've actually been in both scenarios, you know, the, the side that when you're, when you're losing games that can be obviously very toxic as well. Um, but, but also winning games as well and, like, the players that aren't playing, um, that, that kind of atmosphere, like, I don't envy managers trying to deal with so many big personalities and, um, I think nowadays it's very much more, like, the players will let their agents deal with, with not playing and things like that but-

Chris Williamson 37:10 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 37:10 ... um, back, I think when I was playing it was definitely much you'd knock on the door o- of the manager and you'd have to-

Chris Williamson 37:16 Direct relationship.

Peter Crouch 37:17 ... you'd, you'd have a direct relationship. It's like, "Why am I not playing?" And, you know, you'd have to actually-

Chris Williamson 37:21 So that's the agent now that speaks to the manager now?

Peter Crouch 37:23 Yeah, I mean, I-

Chris Williamson 37:24 Really?

Peter Crouch 37:24 ... I, I, I've seen things now that I p- p- but I'm, I'm basically, I'm glad that I kinda got out when I did. I, uh, when, when I was 37, 38 I was still playing and I just saw, you know, agents up in the, in the, in the canteen every day, you know, going in to see why a player wasn't playing or, um, and I'd just be like, "Why can't you just go and do it yourself? Why don't you just go and knock on the door and say-"

Chris Williamson 37:46 I didn't know that was happening.

Peter Crouch 37:47 Yeah, a hell of a lot more now. Um, and I think players hide behind their agents a little bit now, um, which is a shame. Um, and yeah, they've got a, they've got a role to play agents, but, uh, I do think those conversations need to be visi- you know, f- certainly y- you can have them yourself with the, with the manager. But with regards to the, yeah, that toxic atmosphere, yeah, definitely when, when you're losing games that can be really bad, everyone pointing fingers and no one wants to look in a mirror.

Chris Williamson 38:12 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 38:12 And, um, there were certain, you know, players, individuals where you'd just be like... Uh, the other thing is when you're losing and, and, and people aren't playing and you, with social media now you can put out... I mean, I've watched cer- one certain player do nothing in training. You know, he'd, he'd be the fir- he'd be the last in, he'd be the first out, uh, every single day. He wouldn't even tie his laces when he was training and then he'd go home and he'd, he'd have someone filming him on Instagram and he's running up some stairs, he's, you know, he's d- he's running round his drive and he's doing shuttles and all the fans are like, "Why is he not playing?" You know, he-

Chris Williamson 38:46 He was working even harder at home.

Peter Crouch 38:46 Look how hard, look how hard he's working.

Chris Williamson 38:48 He's not doing anything at work.

Peter Crouch 38:49 And he's not doing anything in training and I'm like-

Chris Williamson 38:51 Wow.

Peter Crouch 38:51 But, you know, that just shows you that, how the wool can be pulled over fans' eyes and, you know, that, that you're not really getting the, the full story.

Chris Williamson 39:00 This is another disadvantage of that direct form of communication, right?

Peter Crouch 39:03 Yeah, I think-

Chris Williamson 39:03 Yeah, they can counter negative headlines in the press, but they can also sell the fans a complete lie about how hard they're, they're working.

Peter Crouch 39:10 A completely different story I know, you know, that's, that's actually like-

Chris Williamson 39:12 That's fascinating.

Peter Crouch 39:13 Yeah, like, the, the back s- we say back stronger on my podcast and it's very much like we say that because it was just a loose term on people's social media that used to wind me up so much.

Chris Williamson 39:23 What?

Peter Crouch 39:23 Back stronger, right?

Chris Williamson 39:24 Okay.

Peter Crouch 39:24 Everyone used to say it and it was like a hashtag. It was like you can write the, the, the, the, the tweet or the, or the Instagram message, uh, of every player who's, who's ever lived, right? When they've played and they've lost away from home. It was like, um, "Sorry we let you down. The fans were terrific today. We'll be back stronger next week." Right? That, we used to laugh at that 'cause I'd just be like who are you trying to kid with this message, you know? You've barely tried, you know, we've, we've got pumped and you're trying to say, you know, you've been coating the fans off to m- to everyone on the, on the changing room saying how bad they were and then it's the, you know, the generic i-

Chris Williamson 39:59 Diplomacy out front.

Peter Crouch 40:00 ... the generic message. And the worst thing is, you see the replies after and the, there's fans that are, are buying into it. And I think, yeah, I think it's definitely, I think people are kind of cottoned onto the, to the fact that, you know, you can't pull the wool over these, these people's eyes. But for a long time that was going on and it was, it was frustrating the life out of me.

Chris Williamson 40:18 If you haven't been feeling as sharp or energized as you'd like, getting your blood work done is the best place to start, which is why I partnered with Function. They run lab tests twice a year that monitor over 100 biomarkers. They've got a team of expert physicians that take the data, put it in a simple dashboard and give you actionable insights and recommendations to improve your health and lifespan. They track everything from your heart health, your hormone levels, your thyroid function and nutrient deficiencies. They even screen for 50 types of cancer at stage one, which is five times more data than you get from an annual physical. And getting your blood work done and drawn, and analyzed like this would usually cost thousands, but with Function it is only $499 and right now they're giving 1,000 Modern Wisdom listeners another $100 off, bringing it down to $399. So just go to the link in the description below or head to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. That's functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. Is being funny a way of hiding how much the game hurts or is it a performance enhancer to kind of, uh, regulate when stuff's getting a little bit stressful?

Peter Crouch 41:22 Mm-hmm. Well, for me personally-

Chris Williamson 41:24 Yeah. Yeah.

Peter Crouch 41:24 ... uh, yeah that-

Chris Williamson 41:25 A coping mechanism-

Peter Crouch 41:25 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:25 ... or a performance enhancer?

Peter Crouch 41:26 Yeah. It started as that. You know, like, it started as, as a, as a defense mechanism. Um, g- I just looked different. I didn't look like, uh, any normal footballer. Um, you know, I've talked about this before but I, you know, all my heroes didn't look like me (laughs) and, um, I was kind of... I mean, there were certain players that, you know, were taller but, you know, I wanted to go past players, I wanted to, I wanted to have a good t- I wanted to, I wanted to do skills, I wanted to score great volleys, I wanted to score, you know, I wanted to do things that, you know, player, players didn't look like me were doing. Um, and I think, yeah, certainly at school, you know, in that harsh environment of football, um, looking different and trying to fit in, uh, are two different things. So, um, yeah, humor became a defense mechanism, became something that I managed to, um, you know, if someone wanted to say something negative about me I would say it funnier and quicker than they, than they were gonna. And I think that kind of stood me in really good stead in life-

Chris Williamson 42:22 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 42:23 ... really. So I think that's how my charac- character developed really and then it was like, well, I'm not gonna say anything to him 'cause he's, he's gonna be sharper and quicker and funnier with whatever he's gonna say. So that stopped very quickly and I think certainly the harsh environment with fans, I think, you know, I came out and, you know, I'd laugh at myself before someone else could laugh at me. And I think-... something that started as, as a defense mechanism then kind of became my superpower. I think after football, it then became, "Oh, God. There's a, you know, there's a footballer who can have a laugh. He can laugh at himself in an environment that, um, is very take yourself seriously." Um-

Chris Williamson 42:58 Mm.

Peter Crouch 42:58 It's very, you know, "How good can we look? How polished can we look?" And I think-

Chris Williamson 43:03 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 43:03 ... yeah, it might've been a, a quite refreshing change for people that, "Oh, there's someone here that's doing, doing well, he's successful, but he can also take the piss out of himself." Um-

Chris Williamson 43:12 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 43:12 ... which was, you know, for me sitting here now it doesn't seem groundbreaking, but I think certainly when I was playing it, it did, it did feel a, a touch groundbreaking.

Chris Williamson 43:21 What gets considerably better about life when you stop playing?

Peter Crouch 43:26 Um, (sighs) it's hard. I mean, it's, it's a tough one to stop because it's all you've ever known, right? And, um-

Chris Williamson 43:35 Since you're a child.

Peter Crouch 43:36 Yeah. I think when I first retired, I was very much like, "Oh, I'm my own boss now. I can do whatever I like." I can, y- you know, go on a holiday at Christmas, things like that. I can, you know, do something on a Saturday. Um, you know, there, there's certain little things like that, like e- the first Christmas dinner was amazing. Like, genuinely as a footballer, um, in a hotel New Year's Eve, didn't see a new year in ever. I'd been asleep by 10 o'clock. Um, Christmas Day very much like-

Chris Williamson 44:05 Ready for Boxing Day.

Peter Crouch 44:06 Yeah. I'd train Christmas Day. Um, I mean, you know, I'd, I'd have a sandwich-

Chris Williamson 44:11 Yeah. (laughs)

Peter Crouch 44:11 ... f- like turkey sandwich maybe, that was about it. Um, I'd eat pasta, chick- dry chicken. I wouldn't, I wouldn't have a Christmas dinner, certainly no alcohol 'cause we play 26th, 28th, 1st, um, you know, 7th. There'd be consistent games over Christmas. So yeah, that, that first, when I retired, it was like, "Right, I'm gonna go for it Christmas Day." And I did, you know? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 44:35 (laughs)

Peter Crouch 44:36 Um, you know?

Chris Williamson 44:37 My stomach didn't know what hit it.

Peter Crouch 44:37 Oh my God, I ate what, you know, what I could. I drank a hell of a lot and I had a great time. But then that wears thin, right? I'd... You're like, after the first Christmas, yeah, that was a, that was, that was great. I'd rather be playing. I genuinely would rather-

Chris Williamson 44:50 Mm.

Peter Crouch 44:50 ... be doing what I love doing. I mean, going, actually thinking about it now, the Christmas Day training ga- it was the, some of the best times I've ever had in my life. It was-

Chris Williamson 44:56 Why?

Peter Crouch 44:57 ... just no one on the road. Everyone's with, you know, with their families. And I love my family to bits, but it's nice getting away from them sometimes. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 45:05 (laughs)

Peter Crouch 45:05 Just getting that fresh air, playing a sport. When everyone else is sitting around hungover, you are... You're ready to go.

Chris Williamson 45:11 You're getting after it.

Peter Crouch 45:12 Yeah, it's, it... There is something smug about being so fit in a, in a time when-

Chris Williamson 45:16 The self-righteousness was as nourishing as the Christmas meal.

Peter Crouch 45:19 Almo- almost so, yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:20 Yeah.

Peter Crouch 45:20 And I think being my own boss was lovely, but I'll be honest with you. I, I work better in a, in a kind of regimented environment.

Chris Williamson 45:28 Me too.

Peter Crouch 45:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:28 Me too. It's, uh, it's so trite, right? But the reason that clichés exist is because they seem to be sticky enough to be fucking accurate.

Peter Crouch 45:36 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 45:37 Um, the grass always been greener. You know, you, when you were on the training ground, not fully appreciating how nice it were, fresh cold air, like that snappy British-

Peter Crouch 45:47 Mm.

Chris Williamson 45:47 ... cold air 9:00 AM in the morning. (inhales and exhales deeply) It's nice, right?

Peter Crouch 45:52 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 45:52 It fills your lungs up. And at the same time you're like, "Oh," it, we, our national sport is complaining. It's, it's-

Peter Crouch 45:58 Mm.

Chris Williamson 45:58 ... complaining first and football second.

Peter Crouch 45:59 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:00 And you want to be, "Ah, wish I... I could or should've laid in this morning. The kids are gonna be a nightmare when I get back. Oh, the missus is gonna be eh, meh, meh, meh, meh. Not even gonna get to get a roast today. You know? Da, da, da, da, da, da." Like, just the... As you're d- waiting to do drills and everyone's chirping away, like just in a little queue.

Peter Crouch 46:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:18 Like, the classic thing. And then as soon as you finish up, what is it that you miss? You miss the thing that's on the other side. So I, I think that, to be honest, I think that that's kind of the perennial condition for humans across everything. You're, you know, deep in university and you just wish that you could get out. "I'm so bored of this lecture. I'm so bored. This course is stupid." And then you get into employment, whatever career you go into, and you go, "I wish that I had... You know, I remember when I used to go back to lectures and we'd sit at the back and, you know, just be able to chill out and we'd be able to have a snake bite in the union at 11:00 in the morning on a Tuesday. Like, wasn't that cool?" And then you get out of that and you're like, "Yeah, I just really wanna have a family. I, I spend all this time on my own. I wanna have a partner." And then you have to sleep in bed next to someone and they're too hot all the time. And you're like, "Fuck, I just wish I was on my own again." Then you miss having a family and then you start to have a family and you're like, "Fuck, I just wish I could sleep in on a morning. The kids are bouncing everywhere." And then you're sick of your job and you wanna retire, and then you retire and you think, "Fuck, I just want... I wish I was back at work." And this is, I think, the perennial human condition-

Peter Crouch 47:15 Mm.

Chris Williamson 47:15 ... all the way through and humor, laughing at kind of the absurdity of it all, I think is a pretty good-

Peter Crouch 47:24 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 47:25 ... prophylactic against that.

Peter Crouch 47:26 Yeah. I, I think, um, it, we g- we do complain. And as footballers, we complained about the smallest things. You know, if, if one thing was wrong, we were on it, you know? But-

Chris Williamson 47:35 What are some of the more silly complaints that you can recall?

Peter Crouch 47:38 Um, mainly about sessions. You know, like I, I, I did my coaching badges when I retired and I got up to kinda UEFA A license and, um, my respect for coaches and managers now is just through the roof. You know, and I, and I think about what I was like and what we were like to coaches. If one, if he got the num- one number wrong or gave the wrong bib to someone or, you know, the cone was out of place, we were on him, right? It was like, "Oh my God, this is a shambles." You know, like... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 48:07 (laughs)

Peter Crouch 48:07 This, "You're a disgrace. You can't manage. You can't coach." Uh, genuinely, that's the slightest thing. And then I think about it now when I was in that environment of being a coach and I'm thinking, "This is hard. This is tough." How you get-

Chris Williamson 48:20 It's a thankless task.

Peter Crouch 48:21 Yeah, how you get all these egos in one, in various positions and pull 'em around and tell them what to do is, is an incredible feat really. So my respect, it went so, so through the roof for coaches when I did my badges. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 48:37 (laughs) Yeah. I mean, I, I, I remember the same thing with cricket that, that it is-I think w- maybe a little bit of it is trying to invert some of the power, that you know there's a power imbalance, that these are the guys who, in some form or another, are kind of in charge of life or death for you, and you are being held to a high standard. It's- it's the- you know, it's the same as- it's the same as seeing a police officer texting while he drives-

Peter Crouch 49:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 49:03 ... and you go, "Hey-"

Peter Crouch 49:05 You can-

Chris Williamson 49:05 "... I know you're gonna enforce this on me."

Peter Crouch 49:07 Mm.

Chris Williamson 49:07 "So this is my opportunity to be self-righteous and- and- and very British about it." You- you- everybody turns into Cycling Mikey-

Peter Crouch 49:14 Ugh.

Chris Williamson 49:14 ... when, uh, (laughs) when they're at like... (laughs)

Peter Crouch 49:17 100%. I love to say that. (laughs) I would tell him as well. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 49:23 And, uh, uh, yeah, I think- I- I think part of it is, ah, we're gonna revert, we're gonna invert this- this power imbalance-

Peter Crouch 49:28 Mm.

Chris Williamson 49:29 ... between the two of us and, um-

Peter Crouch 49:31 Mm.

Chris Williamson 49:32 But yeah, we, I- I think the humor thing, okay, this is absurd and it's difficult to do in the moment because we, especially even you, a more laissez-faire philosophy when it came to the way that you played than maybe the more kind of-

Peter Crouch 49:49 Mm.

Chris Williamson 49:49 ... intense, negatively focused guys. We'll still have been focusing on a lot of the negatives of, "How can I get better? And where should I improve?" And so on and so forth. Well, if that's the case, you know that there are going to be things in this situation that in future, you're going to look back on with fondness, and you know that there are, uh, a- and those are things that you're ignoring right now, and you also know that whatever it is that you want, you're going to pick holes in that thing in future.

Peter Crouch 50:14 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 50:14 So maybe trying to be a little bit less, uh, confident in what you think is what you want.

Peter Crouch 50:23 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 50:23 You know, you're like, "I- I just think I'm doing this thing right now. And I'll just make..." You know, uh, I've been whining this week, (laughs) you know, the ninth episode in this location, it's been so much fun and beautiful and- and- a- and my favorite location of anywhere I've filmed over, you know, like a thousand episodes. The seat's not that comfortable.

Peter Crouch 50:38 Mm-hmm. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 50:40 And I've been sat in this seat, (laughs) I've been sat in this seat like 25 hours this week, and I've got this, like, little bruise on my lower back, and I'm getting in at a nighttime, I'm like, "Oh, my back hurts, like, my lower back hurts." I'm not gonna remember the fucking bruise on my back in six months time-

Peter Crouch 50:52 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 50:52 ... but I'll remember how much fun it was to be here with the guys.

Peter Crouch 50:54 Mm.

Chris Williamson 50:54 And, uh, to do ad reads and throw AG1 and element packets around and stuff like that, you know? So just, uh, again, I- I wonder, I don't, I- I'm sure that this is kind of, like I say, a perennial human issue, but I think it's a distinctively British brand of it as well.

Peter Crouch 51:10 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 51:10 Like it's a, the- the complaining, like Cycling Mikey, uh-

Peter Crouch 51:14 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 51:14 ... d- dynamic is like a particular thing. So just trying to keep that in mind, I think, might be a nice way for people to-

Peter Crouch 51:19 Mm.

Chris Williamson 51:19 ... to let go of that stress.

Peter Crouch 51:20 Well, I thi- I think the ch- I think the character thing, like you- you mentioned there, li- li- I think being adaptable is the- the- the- the thing that I think we for- we forget about. I think people have these goals, like you say, and you set the goals, and if you don't reach them, it's- it's- it's- it's a failure-

Chris Williamson 51:37 Mm.

Peter Crouch 51:38 ... you know, whereas I'll have a goal and I've, I- s- and I've ha- I've had it my whole life really, my ultimate goal was football, but then when I retired I was like, "Right, what do I, what do I do now?"

Chris Williamson 51:46 Yeah.

Peter Crouch 51:46 And I, it was a real worry to be, you know, kind of jobless and think to myself, you know, "How am I gonna keep myself busy?" Um, and I'd, I might have a goal, but that goal for me would- would change at every- every turn, I mean, like, it's a kind of a- a tree, I suppose, and then the- the branches keep coming off and you're like, "Oh, I'll follow this one." And I think, you know, people have always said to me like, you know, yeah, I've been lucky enough to have a, quite a successful career after football, but it wasn't- it wasn't structured or thought out. It was very much like, "That's an opportunity. I'll take that."

Chris Williamson 52:21 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 52:22 "Um, you know, that's another opportunity, I'll- I'll- I'll- I'll do that." And I think, you know, I was lucky the fact that those opportunities arose, but, um, I- I do think being adaptable and- and- and taking your mind off the ultimate goal at times, and, you know, there'll be plenty of elite people that you speak to who said, "I've ha- I have one laser focus that I hone in on," right? Well, that's not my way. That wasn't my way and isn't my way.

Chris Williamson 52:44 Not my, uh, huh.

Peter Crouch 52:44 I think. Um, I'll, yeah, I had a focus, I have a goal, but I also kind of can adapt-

Chris Williamson 52:51 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 52:51 ... to situations and make the best of the situation you are, you're given.

Chris Williamson 52:57 I always felt, mm, not- not quite like a fraud, but certainly like, uh, uh, insufficient by the standards that I knew were supposed to be gold standard, and I started doing the show, a lot of it was about productivity, this has been good seven years, and, um-

Peter Crouch 53:15 Mm.

Chris Williamson 53:16 ... seven, uh, nearly eight actually, fuck. And w- when I first started, you know, I was 30, and, um, I'm like this adult infant trying to wrangle my life into order a little bit. I was at university, full-time uni until I was 24, so, uh, I spent, uh, I spent a long time like w- on the- the train tracks, not too dissimilar to you-

Peter Crouch 53:39 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 53:39 ... although you kept going a lot- a lot longer, and then you step off and you're freewheeling, i- no idea how to drive, and I'm trying to get my life in order, and a big part of it is, okay, so you need a 25-year plan and it's broken down into five-year periods, and it's one-year, like, chunks, and it's nine- 90-day sprints and it's daily actions and da-da-da- you know, and you sort of ...

Peter Crouch 53:57 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 53:58 And I had no, uh, just couldn't seem to get any further than about six months out. I couldn't ever really see-

Peter Crouch 54:06 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 54:06 ... much further and I was like, "Oh God, I supposed to have a plan, I'm supposed to know where I'm going," and all the rest of it, and, um, I understand why, especially if you've got a- a little bit of a n- nervous disposition or you prefer a bit more order instead of chaos or structure-

Peter Crouch 54:22 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 54:22 ... like you do, uh, uh, and I do too, um, because without the structure, everything's a little bit scary and sort of, "I don't really know how the fuck it's gonna go."

Peter Crouch 54:31 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 54:32 But I don't think that that's necessarily a- a sort of less viable approach for doing things, and especially if you are planning on stuff going very well, which everybody hopes that it's going to-

Peter Crouch 54:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 54:47 ... you know what happens. If the line starts to go vertical in whatever industry it is that you're doing, uh-... the options that come out, it's stuff that you didn't even know that you didn't even know existed.

Peter Crouch 54:58 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 54:58 You go, "Well, how was I supposed to prepare for this thing that I wasn't even aware that I wasn't even aware was an option?"

Peter Crouch 55:04 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 55:05 Like, oh my God. So, in that case, the plan would be out of the window within, within six months.

Peter Crouch 55:09 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 55:10 Oh, I've got my 25-year, five-year, bah-bah-bah. You know, like, okay, I'm six months into this, the (laughs) 2026, it's like, fuck, it's out the window. So, I think being adaptable and being flexible and not s- not feeling too bad, "Oh, I don't have a plan, I don't know what I'm supposed to," it's like, all right, are you talented, do you work hard, and are you consistent?

Peter Crouch 55:26 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 55:28 You probably don't need to worry all that much.

Peter Crouch 55:30 I, I, I just think, like, like obviously the, the way I was in football is, is the way I've carried it on into my life after football is that I think you, you do have to enjoy the journey. And I think, yeah, people might be laser-focused, they might be more successful than me, um, but, but I know it doesn't make them happier than me.

Chris Williamson 55:47 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 55:47 Right? And I think, what is success in, in life, right? It's, surely to me it's, it's happiness, right? And if I'm happy, yeah, I might not be as, as, as elite or won as many things as certain people, but I've been happy the whole way along doing it, and again now. Um, I think I, I do things that I enjoy, and I'm obviously very lucky that I've got the opportunity to do that. But, um, I think because I enjoy it, I think it, people kind of enjoy it with me. And-

Chris Williamson 56:17 Well, it's also enabled you, the enjoyment of you doing the thing has enabled new things, because you're having fun along the way-

Peter Crouch 56:24 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:24 ... that it's opened up these options. There are certain things that you can sort of grit your teeth through in a way, and I think that going from elite sport, what's interesting, going from elite sport where you're almost encouraged to ignore your emotions in per, uh, in replacement of the performance, to what you do now, which is your emotions are the performance.

Peter Crouch 56:43 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 56:43 The, the better your mood, the better the outcome for-

Peter Crouch 56:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 56:46 ... you having a chat, or feeling relaxed, or coming in here and having a laugh, and, you know, "Oh, wow, there's that memory that far. Feel re- like, in a good place with Chris today. I'm energized and my brain's working well-"

Peter Crouch 56:56 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 56:56 "... 'cause I slept last night, 'cause I wasn't too stressed." As opposed to, "It doesn't matter how you feel, get on the pitch, run fast, and kick the ball in the goal."

Peter Crouch 57:02 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 57:03 And, um, yeah, I, I, I think it's a, a different sort of skill set, one that requires you to feel g-... I think about this with comedians-

Peter Crouch 57:11 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 57:11 ... all the time. You know, your job is to go on stage and b- bring a vibe, and, and make people laugh. So, you have, maybe, a therapist perhaps would be, would be something similar. You know, you need to be attuned and, and regulated. If you're spending all of your time having an argument with your missus-

Peter Crouch 57:31 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 57:31 ... how are you supposed to turn up and do your thing? And I'm aware that that's gonna be difficult-

Peter Crouch 57:35 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 57:35 ... as a football player, too. I'm sure that turning up-

Peter Crouch 57:36 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 57:36 ... after you've had a fight with the bird is not-

Peter Crouch 57:37 Do you know, bizarrely, that is actually, is actually my, the be- the best football I ever played was when I was having problems off the field.

Chris Williamson 57:44 As a performance enhancer?

Peter Crouch 57:45 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:46 Oh, wow.

Peter Crouch 57:46 For me, for me it was, yeah. I was like-

Chris Williamson 57:48 But do you think that was due to ...

Peter Crouch 57:49 Do you know why? Because it's, it's, it's a safe place. It's like, whatever's going on in the world, I'm gonna go here, and I'm gonna play football. And I-

Chris Williamson 57:56 It's a little sanctuary.

Peter Crouch 57:57 Yeah. I'm gonna get away from... And I think quite often with footballers in general, like, quite, quite often the players that I've met or, or been around have had tough upbringings, hard lives, and th- their escapism has always been ki- go and kick a ball around. Right? Whatever's going on in the house, you know, their mum might be arguing with their dad, there might be fights, there, th- you know, there's problems. You go out, you kick a ball around, all that goes away. And genuinely, that's how I, how, how I felt. It was, if I had problems off the field, I'd go in there, and the moment, o- obviously when I was playing professional football-

Chris Williamson 58:30 Yeah.

Peter Crouch 58:30 ... the minute I'd drive through those gates, s- it's like I've left all those problems behind. It's like I've left them at the gate, and now I'm, all I'm gonna do is be a nine-year-old kid again. I'm gonna go and play football with my mates, I'm gonna have a laugh-

Chris Williamson 58:43 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 58:43 ... and then yeah, there'll be a world of problems out there the minute I go through those gates again.

Chris Williamson 58:48 (laughs)

Peter Crouch 58:48 But th- that's, that's when I end up going to the gym and fucking eat-

Chris Williamson 58:50 Right.

Peter Crouch 58:50 ... you know, eating, and ending up staying in the training ground-

Chris Williamson 58:52 Running up and down the stairs and videoing it, vi- videoing it on Instagram.

Peter Crouch 58:54 ... till 5:00 PM. That's it, you know?

Chris Williamson 58:55 Yeah. Uh, yeah, that's, I mean, maybe you're right. Maybe, maybe the comedians that are really struggling are, are, are able to find-

Peter Crouch 59:01 I think that's harder for them.

Chris Williamson 59:02 Y- yeah, you're bringing an emotional vibe-

Peter Crouch 59:05 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 59:05 ... as opposed to kind of forgetting it. It's, you know, it's, and it's less embodied as well. I think, uh, y- difference between, let's say, doing comedy and, uh, being a dancer, both people are on stage-

Peter Crouch 59:14 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 59:15 ... both people need to bring a vibe, but one is getting to kind of, like, release some of that tension-

Peter Crouch 59:18 Yes.

Chris Williamson 59:18 ... a little bit by moving their body. And, uh, same not true-

Peter Crouch 59:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 59:22 ... if you're, if you're Jimmy Ca-... Speaking of Jimmy Ca though, um, his what is the meaning of life, his five-word thing, uh, enjoying the passage of time, and what you said about there are people who are maybe more successful than me, but also more miserable-

Peter Crouch 59:36 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 59:36 ... or, or, or at the very least less happy, you should be asking yourself a question, what are you doing this for? Uh, presumably it is something like enjoying the passage of time. I'm trying to be successful so that I feel good. Like, generally so that I feel good. And if in the pursuit of being successful I make myself feel miserable, you're sacrificing the thing that you want, which is success, for the thing which is supposed to get the thing that you want.

Peter Crouch 1:00:04 Well, that, that, that's it. I think that's what wor- work in general is. Like, I, you know, I, I think obviously the, the, the, the financial gain and things like that is, you know, certainly people want money so they can provide a more comfortable, happy lifestyle-

Chris Williamson 1:00:17 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 1:00:17 ... I, I think. And, you know, if you can achieve that without, without, you know, working so hard or putting yourself through that pain-

Chris Williamson 1:00:26 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 1:00:27 ... um, or if it is pain or if it's hard, then if, if you can achieve that, it's kind of almost like a cheat code, isn't it? Y- you, if you're happy, you know, when, when is it enough? You know, like, how much do you need to be, to be happy? I think, um, everyone wants to be comfortable, of course, but I think people who are in a, a, you know, a job that they don't like and, you know, they, they feel like they have to do it, it's a, it's a, such a difficult space, especially in this day and age for, for people to, to juggle.

Chris Williamson 1:00:54 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:00:55 Well, there's, uh-... certainly a case where if you already live a comfortable life and are choosing to reduce your quality of life in order to make more money, then it's a bad trade.

Peter Crouch 1:01:10 Yeah. Totally disagree with that. I think you, you, the, the happiness is the most important thing. I think having a household that you, you, you enjoy coming back to is so important. Um, you know, when you walk through the door, are you going, "Oh, fuck, I've got to go in there"? (laughs) You know, because there are people that do that, you know. And, and, and thankfully, I don't. I go home, and I think, I look around and I'm happy, and I, and I want, you know, I just ho- you just hope everyone else feels that way. But, you know, it's, it's hard, and they, you know, they probably, probably don't. It's, it's a difficult, a difficult situation to navigate.

Chris Williamson 1:01:40 Before we continue, if your sleep's not right, you're taking ages to nod off, waking up at random times and feeling groggy in the morning, Momentous's sleep hacks are here to help. They're not your typical knock-you-out supplement overloaded with melatonin? Just the most evidence-based ingredients at perfect doses to help you fall asleep more quickly, stay asleep throughout the night, and wake up feeling more rested and revitalized in the morning. I'm banking on you not being able to hit me. That's why I take these every single night, especially when I'm on the road, and why I trust Momentous with my life. All right. Okay, there we go. Or at least my sleep, because they make the highest quality supplements on the planet. What you see in the, on the label is what's in the product and absolutely nothing else. And if you're still unsure, they've got a 30-day money back guarantee. So, you can buy it and try it every night for 29 nights. 30 nights, in fact. And if you don't like it for any reason, they will give you your money back. That's how confident they are that you'll love it. Plus, they ship internationally. Right now, you can get 35%. He's run out of ammo. R- Right now, you can get 35% off your first subscription and that 30-day money back guarantee by heading to livemomentous.com/modernwisdom (laughs) with code "modernwisdom" at checkout. That's L-I-V-E (laughs) M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S dot com/modernwisdom at checkout. (laughs) Talking about emotions and sort of casting that stuff off. How did you deal with anxiety, adrenaline, performance, stress-

Peter Crouch 1:03:15 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:03:15 ... when you were playing?

Peter Crouch 1:03:16 Yeah, uh, uh, it's such a... I've, I've overcome it in lots of different ways. But, um, the nervousness used to get to me bad.

Chris Williamson 1:03:24 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 1:03:24 Like I, I-

Chris Williamson 1:03:25 When were you most nervous?

Peter Crouch 1:03:26 Um, I think I, I, uh, it mellowed towards the, the end of my career. Like, certainly when I got to a level where I was comfortable, I was playing for Liverpool, I was playing for England, uh, uh, people knew who I was. So, I didn't have to keep proving myself. I think when I was young, I had to prove myself in every single match. It was very much like, "He can't play."

Chris Williamson 1:03:47 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 1:03:48 And I was like, "I'll show you." That was my whole life until I was about 24. And then when I was playing for England, when I was playing for Liverpool, everyone kind of, "Oh, he can play." I had to kind of stop. Obviously, I still had to keep proving myself, but, uh, made, it became a little bit easier. Um, but the nervousness, yeah, I mean, in the early days, certainly my first... I mean, I remember, I've, I've told this story before, but I was on the... Like, I got in my first England squad, and I'm, I got... No, I, I was, um, I was starting the game, and I remember we were going... When Wemb- the new Wembley was getting built, and we were playing at Old Trafford. And I'm in the... I'm on the bus, and I've got... You know, I'm sitting next to Steven Gerrard, um, Wayne Rooney's here, uh, Rio Ferdinand, David Beckham, Gary Neville, um, Michael Owen. All, you know, household names, right? And I'm sitting on this bus. I'm just thinking to myself. I'm looking around. I'm going, "Right, I'm starting now for England. I've got the number nine." And I'm looking around at all these players. I'm thinking, you know, "So, basically, how did I get here, number one?"

Chris Williamson 1:04:45 A bit of impostor syndrome.

Peter Crouch 1:04:45 Yeah, a little bit. I was thinking, "Well, like, these players are..." You know, I watched these on the TV, you know? Yeah. S- world-class players, and now I'm, I'm one of them, right? And then I remember sitting down, and I remember looking down at this, um, pub. We were stuck in traffic on the way to Old Trafford, and there was a fella there with a... He had a pint and a paper. And I just thought, "Cor (laughs) , I'd love to be him right now." (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:05:09 Any escape to get off the bus.

Peter Crouch 1:05:10 Well, I just thought... The nerves that were going through my body, and, and, and then... And I'm thinking, "The whole nation's watching this." It's all... All this stuff is going through my brain. Like, you know, all my friends and family.

Chris Williamson 1:05:19 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 1:05:20 Don't, don't mess this up. I'm thinking... I'm looking at this fella now. He's got a pint of Guinness, and he's not got a care in the world.

Chris Williamson 1:05:26 No pressure.

Peter Crouch 1:05:27 No pressure. But obviously at that time, I, I would, I would think, "Well, I wonder if I could swap with him." But then after the game, when you do... when you overcome those nerves, and you, you've done well or you've scored, and you thought back to your thought process before the game, and then the thought process after. And the, the buzz, the natural high that I've got, you just wouldn't change it for anything. It's the best feeling that you could ever have and I've ever had in my life.

Chris Williamson 1:05:55 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 1:05:55 And then, you know, uh, and then the next game, I'm back to square one.

Chris Williamson 1:06:00 (laughs)

Peter Crouch 1:06:00 (laughs) I'm, I'm at that nervous energy again.

Chris Williamson 1:06:04 Yeah.

Peter Crouch 1:06:05 But there's something special about it. And, uh, you know, I've, I've, I've managed to do it in my, in my life since. I think we did a show for, uh, the BBC, and it was, um, f- f- for the Euros. It was, uh, it... And it was live just after every England game. And, um, you know, I was the host of it, and, uh, it was... You know, someone was in your ear and... And basically, I'm going live on BBC, and I'm thinking, "There's millions who are gonna be watching this." And that adrenaline kind of... Even though I'm not playing football anymore-

Chris Williamson 1:06:32 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 1:06:32 ... I kind of still got it. It was like, "Right, 10, nine," and you're getting the countdown, right?

Chris Williamson 1:06:35 Yeah.

Peter Crouch 1:06:35 And you... And then I'm thinking, "Don't swear. Don't fall over. Don't..." (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:06:39 (laughs)

Peter Crouch 1:06:39 And then you think, "I don't want to be here."

Chris Williamson 1:06:41 Yeah.

Peter Crouch 1:06:41 And then you got over it. The show goes really well, and you think, "That was just-"

Chris Williamson 1:06:46 I did it.

Peter Crouch 1:06:46 "... such a buzz." Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:06:47 Yeah, so cool. It's so funny how you just loop back to that same... Each, uh, realization then gets your memory wiped. It's like someone shakes the Etch A Sketch.

Peter Crouch 1:06:56 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:06:56 And you go, "Oh, f- I'm back to the start. I wanna be the guy-"

Peter Crouch 1:06:58 It's-

Chris Williamson 1:06:58 "... with the Guinness again."

Peter Crouch 1:06:59 Yeah, yeah. "I wanna be-"

Chris Williamson 1:07:00 "Ah, I don't wanna be... I wanna be the guy with the..." You know, it's this-

Peter Crouch 1:07:02 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:07:02 ... perpetual loop.

Peter Crouch 1:07:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:07:03 Yeah. I, um...W- was there a period as well ... So, you said on the bus was a, a specific time of nerves. Dressing room, tunnel, when does that start to drop off? Is there a moment, typically, that was sort of peak adrenaline anxiety-

Peter Crouch 1:07:20 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:07:20 ... and then when it tailed?

Peter Crouch 1:07:22 Yeah. I think, you know, I would ... I was very good at masking it. Like, um, certainly in the, in the dressing room beforehand, I would always be ... You, you'd think I was the most relaxed man in the room, you know. I was pfft, l- laughing and joking. I would always ... You know, people would get in a zone and have music on. I tried that a couple of times. I was like, "It's not for me."

Chris Williamson 1:07:42 Mm-hmm.

Peter Crouch 1:07:42 "I'm too, too much in my own thoughts. I wanna bounce off people, have a laugh, do a few keepy-ups, take my mind off what's really about to happen." Um, so yeah, outwardly people would think, "Oh, super confident," but inside I'm thinking, you know, "I'm-"

Chris Williamson 1:07:55 That's another coping mechanism you kind of pull.

Peter Crouch 1:07:57 Yeah, just being around people, taking my mind-

Chris Williamson 1:07:58 I had that with, um, the live shows. So, I'm going on tour around-

Peter Crouch 1:08:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:08:03 ... America and Canada at the back end of this year, and I did the Apollo, three and a half thousand people-

Peter Crouch 1:08:08 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:08:08 ... last November, and, uh, I'd tried a bunch of different thi- ... I, uh, got a breath work coach, and I w- I'm gonna do breath work. I'm gonna-

Peter Crouch 1:08:16 Were you nervous?

Chris Williamson 1:08:17 I, I was shitting myself.

Peter Crouch 1:08:18 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:08:19 Um, wh- ... I (laughs) I was shitting myself w- before I found the way to get ready-

Peter Crouch 1:08:24 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:08:24 ... at least for me, and a lot of the things that I love to do, uh, in my personal development life, the breath works, the journaling, the meditation, the little mantra stuff, uh, all of that I thought, "Well, I've got tons of experience in this. I've got thousands of sessions