The Spirituality Of White Feral Girl Privilege - Chase Reeves

Chris Williamson 0:00 The vast majority of people that are in their 30s or 40s that look at the current world of Insta, Tinder dating-

Chase Reeves 0:06 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 0:06 ... and sort of free and easy sex that's become decoupled from making babies or relationships would get eaten a fucking live if they entered the modern dating market.

Chase Reeves 0:13 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 0:17 Chase Reeves, welcome to the show.

Chase Reeves 0:18 Odalay.

Chris Williamson 0:19 How are you

Chris Williamson 0:20 doing?

Chase Reeves 0:20 Good, man. How are you?

Chris Williamson 0:21 Very well. I saw a quote the other day from, uh, Jason Pargin, who said, "Accept that all of your heroes are full of shit. Your heroes aren't gods. They're just regular people who probably got good at one thing by neglecting literally everything else."

Chase Reeves 0:36 Mm.

Chris Williamson 0:36 What do you think of that?

Chase Reeves 0:37 Yes. (laughs) I think yes. Uh, I think, uh, it puts me in mind of, there's a singer-songwriter named Ryan Adams, who I loved for a long time, and I had several opportunities to go see him, but ne- uh, always choosing not to, for exactly that reason. Like, I didn't wa- I wanted to continue enjoying his music the way that I had, and I just felt like it was gonna change it.

Chris Williamson 1:02 Why?

Chase Reeves 1:02 Because I've had that experience a lot, where you, you realize the humanity of your heroes, and it's an important, it's an important thing to learn if you're in the world, like, making stuff. I s- fancy myself someone's future hero, I think. (laughs) At least my sons. (laughs) My daughters, maybe. But experiencing the humanity of people that you have idolized in some way can, l- l- like, I, it's just happened a lot. It's happened a lot. It's been a big part of, like, you know, modern wisdom. It's been in part, big part of, like, coming to... terms with how life ends up really working. That point about them neglecting all the other parts of their life, it's like, Alan Watts, huge fan of Alan Watts, right? Well, if you've learned more about how his days ended, it's like, "Oh, wow, that contextualizes Alan Watts a little bit."

Chris Williamson 1:58 How did, does his day end?

Chase Reeves 1:59 He kinda, he basically, he, he died of, like, alcohol consumption, and there's, it's, it's not fully, uh, there's still some, you can find s- on- online some writings from some of his friends going like, "I mean, here's the deal, guys." Alan Watts, you can hear him in, several times going, "I just like drinking," you know? "I just," (laughs) "I just like it." Um, and that was kind of a part of his spirituality in some ways. Not the drinking, but just like the being into what you're into. But he had some speaking gigs booked. There was stuff that he was looking forward to doing in life, but he expired, right? And you just think, and my buddy Jay always brings that up to me about, 'cause he knows I like Alan Watts or something, and it's that, I, I'm a follower of spiritual teachers. Oftentimes, like a Ram Dass has meant a lot to me and stuff, and, uh, I love that Ram Dass will say something like my brother calls me, "Rammed ass." You know? (laughs) I love the humanity there. And you also get to hear stories of Ram Dass is a very sexually active guy through his life, you know? We put people on pedestals. We project onto them what I, uh, like kind of, I'm projecting onto them based on where I feel like my i- inequity is, or something like that, where my detriments are.

Chris Williamson 3:18 Th- they fill in all of the fallibilities that you have.

Chase Reeves 3:21 Yeah, they just provide this screen for me to constantly criticize myself in order to get better or something.

Chris Williamson 3:26 You would be more like Alan Watts. You would be more like Ram Dass. Why can't you present and-

Chase Reeves 3:29 Yeah, and I feel like it's-

Chris Williamson 3:31 ... elucidate in a way?

Chase Reeves 3:32 ... it's humanizing to realize the shadow side or the, the humanity of, of anyone.

Chris Williamson 3:36 It's the lack. It's the la- I think the shadow side has a degree of sort of beauty to it, but when you realize that Christopher Hitchens died because he smoked cigarettes.

Chase Reeves 3:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 3:45 Probably.

Chase Reeves 3:46 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 3:46 Or the fact that, you know, really, Alan, as one of the most popular spiritual teachers of the 1900s, you're gonna be defeated by alcohol.

Chase Reeves 3:56 Yeah, right.

Chris Williamson 3:56 You know? It just seems like it's such a banal, unceremonial way to go.

Chase Reeves 4:01 And yet, I, I would interpret it through the lens of his own sort of, uh, perspective around, like, life is here for you to explore what you want about it, and he's like, "I like it." You know? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 4:12 Aubrey said the same thing the first time that I had him on the show. He said, "Life is for doing the things."

Chase Reeves 4:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:17 Says you're supposed to make love, and travel, and take drugs, not all the drugs, but some of the drugs-

Chase Reeves 4:23 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:23 ... and live and be where your feet are, and, and, uh, Naval also says that it's far easier to achieve your material desires than to renounce them.

Chase Reeves 4:31 Mm.

Chris Williamson 4:31 And I think that the same can be true for adventures-

Chase Reeves 4:33 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:33 ... and just doing stuff in life. I have a friend that's a, uh, used to be in a pick-up artistry in his 20s, and he once told me, um, I was like, "Fuck, dude, you're really passionate about pick-up artistries." No-

Chase Reeves 4:43 Wh- wh- what, pick-apartistry?

Chris Williamson 4:45 Pick-up artistry.

Chase Reeves 4:46 Oh, pick up, yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:46 So he was, he was a professional shagger, basically.

Chase Reeves 4:49 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:49 And I was pretty impressed. "Dude, you're really committed to this thing."

Chase Reeves 4:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:53 He's like, "Yeah, my future wife better thank me."

Chase Reeves 4:56 (laughs) Like, you know, I wanna check the algebra on that.

Chris Williamson 4:58 Oh, you're gonna have to, you're gonna have to explain to me-

Chase Reeves 5:00 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 5:00 ... about how your future wife better, and he said, "Well, you know, in 15 years' time when I'm walking down the street with my wife and my two kids and my dog, I don't want to look at a Brazilian girl and think, 'I wonder what it's like to sleep with a Brazilian girl.'"

Chase Reeves 5:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 5:11 "I want to have ticked off all of the different sort of sexual-"

Chase Reeves 5:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 5:15 "... open loops that I've got-"

Chase Reeves 5:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 5:17 "... to, to close those," and although that was a, absolutely a cope on his part to just-

Chase Reeves 5:22 Sure.

Chris Williamson 5:22 ... uh-

Chase Reeves 5:22 Or it's like dude math, you know?

Chris Williamson 5:24 Yeah. (laughs)

Chase Reeves 5:24 It's like dude math.

Chris Williamson 5:25 Bro science.

Chase Reeves 5:25 It's like not really coming to terms with the fact, maybe you're awakening an appetite that finds itself very hard to settle.

Chris Williamson 5:31 Mary Harrington's got this thing she calls the law of fap entropy-

Chase Reeves 5:35 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 5:35 ... which is whatever you start out wanking to is going to progressively get more intense over time.

Chase Reeves 5:39 I feel like I'm watching th- I've watched that in my own life, like, like, worried about that. Like, I'm constantly worried about that. If pornography comes up, I'm, like, scared.

Chris Williamson 5:47 You know what you want?

Chase Reeves 5:48 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 5:48 You wanna just have a couple of favorite porn videos and just stick to those, some classics.

Chase Reeves 5:51 I mean, I think what I want is none of that, right? What I want is a really rich and vibrant connection with my spouse, you know, who I've been with for 17-something years, right?But even on the way here, I was thinking about this, like, this dream of- of, like, of- of life. Like, my, I was just with a Native American teacher and- and he's like, telling some story of an, of an old Native American character who's like, he h- he said one prayer to God, five words, "I want a good life." And that's it. He's like, he prayed it once and it was, and it was great. He's like, he did the medicine once and then that was like, "That's it. I've had enough." You know, his whole entire life and then had that great life. But driving here, I was even, uh, I've, I'm not a, I'm not one who, like, I've o- I'm oftentimes in, maybe not often, but I have, I'm no stranger to that moment where you're like, I would almost rather be dead than to keep going, and to h- have all of this overwhelming endless amount of stuff to do, and comparing myself to those heroes and what could I do and not being able to connect to the richness of right now because it's like, it's, I don't know if it's the life that I want. Like, with the kids and the wife and the whole life feels intact. You feel, you can feel really painted into a corner unless you do some of that sort of spiritual jujitsu or Aikido as you were telling me it's going out of fashion (laughs) a bit.

Chris Williamson 7:14 Apparently so, yeah. We're next door to a- an Aikido studio at the moment. What does a good life look like to you?

Chase Reeves 7:20 I am one who is really connected to creative, creative work, so there's something about being able to make stuff that people can enjoy. There's like, as a creative, uh, uh, um, as a person who has done a lot of creative sort of things, there's stuff that I make that I enjoy the making of and I enjoy it for me. There's also the experience of other people enjoying your thing, and then there's also the experience of making something that you know is good but other people, like, maybe it's not popular and peop- other people don't enjoy it, but some small group out there you know does but you have n- zero interaction with them-

Chris Williamson 7:59 Mm-hmm.

Chase Reeves 8:00 ... you know? So what makes a good life? One of those things is creativity for me. Th- and not just I get to be creative today. Like, it's- it's also the impa- like, I had this theory that a- and, like, an artist is not just committed to the work, it's- it's commit, uh, there's a commitment to how the work is received. Not that I can change someone's preference about it, but, like, knowing that there's people out there that can have this experience with that work or an experience with that work. So creativity is a part of it. I think richness in relationship, like the, uh, I'm a, I'm like a YouTuber who, like, talks about every day carry and bags and travel and all this stuff, and it's like the stuff that we carry with us. Well, the relationships are really a big part of what we carry with us, uh, how I feel about specifically my spouse and my kids, my parents, the quality and the intimacy I have with my friend group, right? Where- where my friends are, how their lives are going too. It's like we kind of carry each other. So that's a, that's a definitely a- a- a big part of it. I think of, for me, I'm kind of a sheltered kid, you know? I was sort of a evangelical for a long time and, um, and I just, there's a lot of, there's a lot of the- the sexual experiences I- I- I've held it on my shoulder that I haven't had a lot of those, and I'm trying to put away the, like, kind of the, there's like a childlikeness in that that's, like, totally relatable and- and beautiful. There's also a childishness that can-

Chris Williamson 9:36 Like a juvenile side to it.

Chase Reeves 9:37 ... that can be really juvenile, and I can see that in plenty of my 30 plus single friends who are out just getting into it and enjoying it 'cause the- the, like, your, like, your pickup artist friend, like, there is such a thrill in the hunt of it.

Chris Williamson 9:51 Yeah.

Chase Reeves 9:51 My name is literally Chase, you know?

Chris Williamson 9:53 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Chase Reeves 9:53 There's a chasing in things, and then you have it and then now what's it like, right? And then I'm constantly

Chase Reeves 9:59 telling my f-

Chris Williamson 9:59 Dude, let me, let me provide a little bit of a red pill for you as-

Chase Reeves 10:03 Let's hear it.

Chris Williamson 10:03 ... s- somebody who's spent a lot of time around people that are going out to sleep with new people on a weekly basis in club nights, right? You've been with your wife, she was the fi- first person you ever slept with.

Chase Reeves 10:13 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:13 Yeah, and you've been with her for 17 years now.

Chase Reeves 10:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:16 Um, the vast majority of people that are in their 30s or 40s that look at the current world of Insta, Tinder dating-

Chase Reeves 10:23 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 10:23 ... and sort of free and easy sex that's become decoupled from making babies or relationships would get eaten a-fucking-live if they entered the modern dating market.

Chase Reeves 10:31 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 10:31 Not that they wouldn't be able to pull, not that they wouldn't be able to go home with people, but that what you're used to, the sort of connection that you're used to, it is so much more vapid and hollow when-

Chase Reeves 10:43 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:43 ... like, like, the- the most exciting part of going back with somebody is, uh, if it's after a night out or you've been out for dinner or you've been out on a date or you're driving o- over to their house for the first time or whatever, it's the drive, it's the anticipation, it's getting there and not knowing what to expect.

Chase Reeves 10:56 Mm.

Chris Williamson 10:56 It's a- a degree of uncertainty and excitement and stuff. But a lot of the time if it's casual sex, the post nut clarity-

Chase Reeves 11:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:05 ... will hit you in the face harder-

Chase Reeves 11:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:07 ... than you can possibly imagine.

Chase Reeves 11:08 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:08 And you're laid there thinking, (sighs) like, not why have I done this or like what am I doing, but there i- there's some existential crises. I can't, I think it's Nietzsche who said, um, "After copulation, the devil's laughter can be heard."

Chase Reeves 11:22 Right. Right.

Chris Williamson 11:23 And in that moment, guys, the- the, uh, post nut clarity is a hell of a drug, man.

Chase Reeves 11:29 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:29 It really will take your face off.

Chase Reeves 11:30 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:32 That is, for the most part, the experience that you have.

Chase Reeves 11:36 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 11:36 You know, the sex bit, you know, even if you're an absolute stud is what? 30, 40 minutes long?

Chase Reeves 11:42 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 11:42 And then you've got all of the lying in bed and pillow talk-

Chase Reeves 11:46 Totally.

Chris Williamson 11:46 ... and realizing that you're incompatible and-

Chase Reeves 11:48 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:48 ... the drive home and the Uber can't get here and how do I get, what's the code to get out of the gate at the back of the house.

Chase Reeves 11:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:54 None of that's romantic, none of that's exciting.

Chase Reeves 11:56 No. No.

Chris Williamson 11:56 Right?

Chase Reeves 11:57 Real life has so much of that, like, just regular partnership stuff in it, and like I-... I'm constantly in that sort of frequency with some of my, my friends, who... No, they're, they're, they're wise to that, and yet they still get all hopped up on just the energy of the chase and the hunt and the... And, and I also hold them through the feelings of rejection, you know?

Chris Williamson 12:21 That hurts, man.

Chase Reeves 12:22 On the other side.

Chris Williamson 12:22 Had a buddy who, uh, was in a relationship and, and recently sort of got back into the dating market having, I think, rom- despite the fact he was very experienced in it, romanticized what the dating market was like.

Chase Reeves 12:33 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:33 And then was reminded of ghosting and chasing-

Chase Reeves 12:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 12:37 ... and girls that wanna just talk about themselves.

Chase Reeves 12:40 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:40 And I... It's absolutely got to be the same awful experience for girls as well. And then on top of that, for women, you've got the physical vulnerability that they have, where they've got this entire new separate type of fear or concern-

Chase Reeves 12:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:54 ... around their physical safety-

Chase Reeves 12:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 12:55 ... that they need to consider.

Chase Reeves 12:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 12:57 And, uh, dude, it's... I mean, it really doesn't surprise me. I, I did this meet-up last night for, with Rob Henderson at Cosmic Coffee in Austin. It was so cool, and to the people that are listening that came down, thank you, 'cause it was way more people than we should have had there. It was an entire corner of this huge outdoor place that was there. And, uh, I was talking to this girl who was born in Idaho, a very religious upbringing, she'd driven from Dallas to come to this m- meetup.

Chase Reeves 13:20 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 13:21 (clicks tongue) And, uh, I was saying, "So, what do you do?" Uh, an ICU nurse. "What are your plans moving forward? What is it that you want to do?" She says, "Uh, I'm just waiting for my husband." I was like, "Okay." That's the first time that I've heard a woman say that.

Chase Reeves 13:36 That's a real vibe. You get, you get that in a lot of, in a lot of places. My wife's the oldest of 10 kids, a lot of her sisters, that's really, truly-

Chris Williamson 13:42 She was the... Uh, she was, like, the middle of nine.

Chase Reeves 13:43 Yeah, yeah. And so that religious upbringing makes, makes sense in that world, um, which is not, like... It's not necessarily an unwise position. It's certainly not popular in the, you know, in, in what, uh, what women are told they're supposed to want and be in modern culture or whatever, you know? I think of this quote from Joni Mitchell, who said, "If you wanna have sex with the same person again and again and again, sleep with lots of different people."

Chris Williamson 14:11 What's that mean to you?

Chase Reeves 14:13 T- uh, it's... I think to... Her point there is, is like, you do the same fucking moves. You experience the same moves in these... Because there's such an energy to that honeymoon sort of beginning of a relationship-

Chris Williamson 14:26 Novelty.

Chase Reeves 14:26 I love that feeling.

Chris Williamson 14:28 Yeah.

Chase Reeves 14:28 Right? And, um, you find yourself in that same energy again and again, and it's easy and it's curious, and there's... You just... It's, it's a chemical romance, you know? And then what happens down the line, like, her... Then it's... She said, "If you wanna have sex with a- a lot, with, like, uh, uh, like, a lot of different people, like, sleep with one person, because you're gonna go through all of these stages of life with them." And I'd... I'm like... I kind of... Uh, I've, I sense some of the wisdom in that. I certainly sense the intimacy and the depth of connection that can happen over a long period of time with someone, and I also certainly h- can relate to the challenge of commitment to someone. When you are someone who's used to options, optionality, and we call that freedom, you know, that, that can be a kind of a curse around being able to go deep.

Chris Williamson 15:23 Well, how much freedom is there in going on a night out and feeling like you are not worthy or you're somehow less if you go home alone?

Chase Reeves 15:30 Yeah, that doesn't sound-

Chris Williamson 15:31 That doesn't seem like freedom.

Chase Reeves 15:32 ... that sounds like pressure. I don't like that pressure.

Chris Williamson 15:34 And that, for a lot of guys, a lot of guys, young dudes, is how they feel. They feel like-

Chase Reeves 15:38 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:38 ... there's an expectation around being a young guy in a single, sexually liberated society-

Chase Reeves 15:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 15:44 ... that they're supposed to go out and what the, the people on TV and the people in movies and the friends that they hear about do is they go home with girls.

Chase Reeves 15:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:53 So if you don't pull-

Chase Reeves 15:54 The whole culture, man. The whole culture is set up for that. Like, I was raised on MTV, and it, it just... You're just absorbing messages around that through, through everything, it seems like. And I'm, I've done pretty good not, like (laughs) not living that way.

Chris Williamson 16:12 Succumbing to it.

Chase Reeves 16:13 Not... But I mean, like, I... But mentally, inside, you're ki- like, there's always-

Chris Williamson 16:17 What are the archetypes that you're being told about?

Chase Reeves 16:19 And I think that, that no matter where you... Like, I'm interested in your que- in your question you asked her ab- uh, by the way, like, wh- where are you going? What, what... I'm curious, to you, how important do you think it is to have a clear objective sort of goal? Like, and, uh, if you could, like, speak a little bit to how you see where you're going.

Chris Williamson 16:39 I'm not very good at doing long-term plans, man.

Chase Reeves 16:41 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:41 I've always sucked at them, you know, the whole what do you want written on your gravestone thing, in, in terms of, uh, especially actual outcomes, I've never been good at. And it's always made me feel a bit, I don't know, insufficient or, or, uh, deficient-

Chase Reeves 16:55 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:55 ... in some way. And I've got these friends like Ali Abdaal, you know, famous productivity YouTuber-

Chase Reeves 17:00 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 17:00 ... and he'll-

Chase Reeves 17:01 He just blew up.

Chris Williamson 17:02 Yeah, yeah-

Chase Reeves 17:02 I'm just looking at him, I'm like-

Chris Williamson 17:03 ... he's out of fucking nowhere. Yeah, it's-

Chase Reeves 17:03 ... "Wh- where? Uh, uh, uh."

Chris Williamson 17:05 ... three mil on YouTube now.

Chase Reeves 17:06 "What am I doing with my life?"

Chris Williamson 17:07 But he'll have, on his wall, some unbelievable framework written by the best timeline guide writer of the 1900s-

Chase Reeves 17:16 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 17:16 ... and he'll have mapped everything out. That's simply not the way that I work-

Chase Reeves 17:20 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 17:20 ... and it, it never has been. And I always felt a little bit deficient because I felt like being in this space, uh, and flirting with productivity a little bit, which everyone does, anyone in knowledge work's flirted with productivity. Uh, it felt like I should have that stuff on lock. And I- I've never had it-

Chase Reeves 17:35 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 17:35 ... sorted, and it's never worked for me. The things that I've found that have worked for me are, find a thing that I'm good at, go very narrow and deep on that one thing, develop skills, and then broaden out from there. And that seems to be the best way, you know? So, principles scale very well, principles and values scale very well-

Chase Reeves 17:54 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 17:54 ... and they're very flexible.

Chase Reeves 17:55 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 17:56 So, uh, th- the way that you have principles and values around your relationship with your wife will inform the way that you run your business-

Chase Reeves 18:02 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 18:02 ... and it'll inform the way that you show up with your friends, and it'll inform the way that you negotiate with the waitress that brought you the wrong dinner-

Chase Reeves 18:08 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 18:08 ... at a restaurant.

Chase Reeves 18:09 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 18:10 Those are things that, for me...... if you struggle to plan and make plans, sort of, what, where do you want to be in five years? It's always felt like, I don't know. It's the same as people asking you what's your type.

Chase Reeves 18:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 18:21 What they mean by what's your type is what's the very narrowly defined physical attractive traits that you want from your partner.

Chase Reeves 18:26 It's like, kind of like, what have you seen in the past that you want to keep seeing, and it doesn't really speak to the... You know, Alan Watts, uh, back to, to the, to this point aro- on bad at long-term plans, he's like, "You actually want to be surprised." You're trying to act... You, you, you want it to be a surprise too. You wi- Yes, I'd like to have the financial means that I'd like to have, and I wanna feel like I'm in a dance with, with, really with the universe, but I see that through the people, through the businesses, through, like, the, the opportunities, through whatever. I wanna feel like there's a, a co-creation and a dance partner, like I step into the space and, and it's stepping back and then vice versa, and like...

Chris Williamson 19:08 Mm-hmm. Well, that's excitement, right?

Chase Reeves 19:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 19:10 That's intrigue. That's play.

Chase Reeves 19:11 And it's connection. It's like an intimacy. It's like a I'm not alone, you know, which I think is... For people who are s- like, for people who are, who are able to play the field a lot and maybe be with a lot of sexual partners or... Like, there is a f- a kind of a sense of aloneness that I, that I feel from a lot of them. Not, not all of them, at all, but like... And I can feel like that too, by the way, in a 20-year marriage, right?

Chris Williamson 19:37 What's one of those... What's that quote about this person's so poor, all he has is money?

Chase Reeves 19:42 Mm.

Chris Williamson 19:42 It's kind of the same as that.

Chase Reeves 19:43 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 19:43 This person's so lonely, all they have is different partners every night.

Chase Reeves 19:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 19:47 And, uh, b- almost, almost all of the stuff that people are trying to recreate now, a sense of connection and belonging, uh, variety and novelty through in- uh, whatever it is, different partners, different substances, it's filling a hole that you, you know that this isn't sustainable. Like, and don't get me wrong, dude. Like, I've done the party boy thing. I, that was me.

Chase Reeves 20:07 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 20:07 I'm speaking this...

Chase Reeves 20:09 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 20:09 ... to my 22-year-old self, right?

Chase Reeves 20:11 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 20:13 But... And, and that also is something that I've been thinking about a lot recently. The lessons that we arrive at later in life are ones that we wish that we'd given ourselves when we were younger.

Chase Reeves 20:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 20:22 But the only way that we've arrived at those lessons is by living them.

Chase Reeves 20:25 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 20:25 It's not, it, it, it's not the case that you could go back in time and tell Chase, do this thing.

Chase Reeves 20:31 That's right.

Chris Williamson 20:31 Or I could go back and say, do this thing, because I wasn't ready to receive that lesson at that time. That wasn't the right place for me to have it. Like, if I'd gone back and t- tried to tell myself a bunch of the stuff that I really value right now, even if I'd believed me that it was a true, uh...

Chase Reeves 20:46 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 20:46 ... realization.

Chase Reeves 20:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 20:48 I pr- it probably wouldn't work.

Chase Reeves 20:49 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 20:49 It probably wouldn't be right for me.

Chase Reeves 20:50 Which I think is, is like, is why I, I relate to you in the having a hard time doing the longer term planning stuff, because I did not know what I was gonna learn, and what I learned was essential, and I wouldn't have had that on my fucking five-year plan, you know? Um, and I'm... And I do, like back to that what is a good life, like somet- I love learning. Like, that sounds super silly and cheesy for me to say, but it... I mean, in my, to my, to myself. But there's something to... I, I really do have an inner drive to understand, like, what are we doing here? And again and again, I, I'm, I experience that we still, we really don't have a great idea of what we're doing here. Like, you'll listen to John Vervaeke or learn s- about some Jungian ways of looking at things, and you'll go like, actually, this, this feels like it helps me make more sense of what's going on. But it, it is... It sounds hokey to a lot of people. You know, you really have to kind of make some... You have to be converted to a few things to even just be in the idea of a collective unconscious or archetypical energies or things like this, right? But they do... Like, what is the psyche is such a big, interesting question to me. Like, I don't know if I im- would say, like, what is a soul or any of this stuff, because that just like, feels like semantics. I, I really don't know what we're talking about half the time, but I'm li- trying to live very soulfully, and that feels like it would be rad to... And not just it would be rad. It's like it feels great when you're in that kind of rich, soulful connection with people, and you feel that kind of rich, soulful connection with life in general, with like your own karma or whatever.

Chris Williamson 22:31 You've got a quote that you like to talk about, which is, "The only authenticity is authenticity about your inauthenticity." What's that mean to you?

Chase Reeves 22:39 Well, I guess it kinda plays to that, to that kind of the viscera of our, of our humanity, our... Like, be where you are. That's the most compelling thing, not who you're trying to be. And I, I'm just someone who's tried to be a lot of my life. I've just tried to be, tried to be, tried to be, and I can be ch- charming enough in some cert- situations to make you believe that about me. You know, now I'm like-

Chris Williamson 23:03 Are you playing a persona?

Chase Reeves 23:04 Yeah. Uh, or, or, a- and oftentimes, like I think what's really motivating it is just, please don't reject me, you know? Just trying to get people to, to want me or like me or something like that, so to that sort of avoidant, anxious attachment sort of just... It's so fucking basic. It's so, it's so lizard brain, you know?

Chris Williamson 23:27 Well, it's g- It, I think,

Chris Williamson 23:28 it fundamentally comes from a fear of the fact that we're not worthy, you know?

Chase Reeves 23:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 23:32 Like, this is, uh, uh, one of the most common...

Chase Reeves 23:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 23:34 ... patterns that I see amongst high achievers, especially male high achievers that are solo rangers, is that they, they hope that if they're successful and useful, that people will need them.

Chase Reeves 23:48 Mm.

Chris Williamson 23:48 Not that people want them...

Chase Reeves 23:50 Mm.

Chris Williamson 23:50 ... because they don't think that people want them.

Chase Reeves 23:52 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 23:52 They think that if they make...

Chase Reeves 23:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 23:53 ... themselves sufficiently indisposable, that people will have to want them.

Chase Reeves 23:56 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 23:57 And that's a pattern that can propel people to really, really good things.

Chase Reeves 24:01 Mm.

Chris Williamson 24:01 You know, you can be incredibly successful driven by fears of insufficiency.

Chase Reeves 24:04 Oh, man. It's, isn't... Is, is there any other way, right?

Chris Williamson 24:07 Well, I think there is. I mean, the, you know... So Peterson's got this experiment he talks about where they put starving rats in a tube, and they waft the smell of cheese in from the front. There's a little spring attached to the rat's tail that-... judges the force of how fast they run away.

Chase Reeves 24:19 Mm.

Chris Williamson 24:19 And you'd think, well, these rats are starving and that's the smell of food, they'd be pulling as hard as they could.

Chase Reeves 24:23 Mm.

Chris Williamson 24:23 Then they do another iteration and they waft the smell of cheese in from the front and the smell of a cat in from behind-

Chase Reeves 24:28 Mm.

Chris Williamson 24:28 ... and the rats pull even harder.

Chase Reeves 24:29 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 24:30 It's like, okay, well, what's the lesson from that? It's like, you need to run towards something that you want, but also away from something that you fear.

Chase Reeves 24:35 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 24:35 And I'm not convinced that... I'm not convinced that everybody that goes on to achieve great things is doing it driven from a place of insufficiency. I think that most people are. I think if you were to look at most high performers in the world, most successful people, I think that on average high performers are less happy-

Chase Reeves 24:55 Mm.

Chris Williamson 24:55 ... than people who aren't high performers, which is very bizarre.

Chase Reeves 24:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 24:58 Why would we call the outcomes that high performers get success when there's a good argument to be made that that correlates more with a more miserable existence?

Chase Reeves 25:09 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:10 What definition of success are we using?

Chase Reeves 25:12 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 25:12 Is this a useful definition of success?

Chase Reeves 25:14 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:14 And it goes back to, you know, your heroes, you don't know the price that they pay to be them.

Chase Reeves 25:18 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 25:18 Tiger Woods.

Chase Reeves 25:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:19 Unbelievable example.

Chase Reeves 25:20 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:20 You know, like greatest, one of the greatest golfers of all time, but who wants to be him?

Chase Reeves 25:24 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:25 The only reason that you know that you don't want to be him is because his failures have happened to be really public.

Chase Reeves 25:30 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:31 His wife chasing him down the driveway with a golf club, and him-

Chase Reeves 25:33 Yeah, right.

Chris Williamson 25:34 ... falling asleep at the wheel or taking half a decade out of the sport with injury 'cause of overworking himself, or-

Chase Reeves 25:38 Mm.

Chris Williamson 25:38 ... stories in, about his father. They had a safe word when he was a kid. His father would racially abuse him on the golf course, saying, "These white people are never gonna let somebody like you play here." And they had a safe word like you would during rough sex.

Chase Reeves 25:50 Mm.

Chris Williamson 25:50 It was the E word, and Tiger never said it.

Chase Reeves 25:52 Mm.

Chris Williamson 25:53 The E word was enough.

Chase Reeves 25:54 Mm.

Chris Williamson 25:55 He never said it.

Chase Reeves 25:55 Wow.

Chris Williamson 25:55 You know, in retrospect, that looks a lot like child abuse.

Chase Reeves 25:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:58 But, but that's the price that you pay. That's the price that you have to pay to be Tiger Woods.

Chase Reeves 26:03 But I also feel so shaped into that mold by the movies I was watching as a kid, like, that idea of you always push harder, keep going, you know?

Chris Williamson 26:13 What were those movies?

Chase Reeves 26:15 Fucking Predator. I don't know why, why, how to, how to tie it to that, but Predator, I watched Predator a bunch. Um, there was this movie called Only The Strong, Best of the Best, a lot of karate movies my dad would watch with me. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 26:28 (laughs)

Chase Reeves 26:28 You know? But it was action movies, those just, like, those-

Chris Williamson 26:32 It's always a go-one-more mindset.

Chase Reeves 26:33 Yeah. And, and there's a toughness that's required for life. If you wanna be one of the greatest, you're gonna have to sacrifice everything. And, and I still have, I, I still wanna be one of the greatest. I still do. And I do want a really rich home and family life. I want my kids to feel connected to me. I want, you know...

Chris Williamson 26:52 This is the per- perennial challenge, I think, that people that desire to perform well have to deal with, that it's a lot harder to perform well when you feel whole-

Chase Reeves 27:03 Mm.

Chris Williamson 27:03 ... than when your performance is filling a hole inside of you.

Chase Reeves 27:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:06 Like, if there's a void that the next accomplishment might fill, you're gonna be very driven to go and do that.

Chase Reeves 27:13 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 27:13 If you now no longer have that void and you need to recreate that same degree of drive-

Chase Reeves 27:19 Mm.

Chris Williamson 27:19 ... without this existential compulsion to go after it-

Chase Reeves 27:24 Mm.

Chris Williamson 27:24 Dude, that's a big challenge.

Chase Reeves 27:25 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:25 That's a really big challenge.

Chase Reeves 27:26 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, to that, it makes me think again of, of, like, how you say you're bad at planning for the future, you know? And I, I wonder how much young men and women should be setting those goals. I remember, uh, uh, there's this old video, it's probably still online, of Tim Ferriss and Leo Babauta talking about, uh, goals. And Tim was like, "You gotta have goals." And Leo was like, "No, you should dissolve your goals. You should let life happen as it, as it comes and continue to pursue your curiosities and let it surprise you." And I, I fall more on that line, but maybe because it's a little bit easier, I do feel some pressure nowadays. I, I feel like I, I could be a little lazy about not defining what I'm really going through.

Chris Williamson 28:14 It's a, definitely an inner citadel that you can retreat to, right?

Chase Reeves 28:18 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:18 That you can say, "Look, uh, I find planning hard, therefore planning is pointless."

Chase Reeves 28:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:22 It's like, mm, that's a cope.

Chase Reeves 28:23 Yeah. Yeah, right?

Chris Williamson 28:24 That's a cope from everybody.

Chase Reeves 28:25 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:25 Um, but in the same way as if you're Ali Abdaal or Tim Ferriss, perhaps it's fantastic for you to have the plan laid out-

Chase Reeves 28:33 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:33 ... but if you're you, maybe it doesn't align quite so much, is exactly the same as there are people out there, friends with a bunch of them, that are really, really successful and not driven by some fear of insufficiency.

Chase Reeves 28:46 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:46 They're perfectly secure in their attachment-

Chase Reeves 28:48 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:48 ... you know? And it's not horses for courses. You just have to think about, what is the price that people pay to, to do the things that you admire from them?

Chase Reeves 28:56 Mm.

Chris Williamson 28:56 And, um, yeah, I wonder, I, I, I wonder as well about the lessons that it teaches young people about what success means and what they should be chasing after in life and things like that.

Chase Reeves 29:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:07 And you don't have that grand narrative anymore that, you know, you and your fellows from your 20s would have deployed to people, right?

Chase Reeves 29:14 Mm.

Chris Williamson 29:14 You don't have a single unifying mythos-

Chase Reeves 29:16 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:17 ... that's bringing everybody together, so everyone's now trying to reinvent it. It's like a-

Chase Reeves 29:20 What's your take, what, what do you... If there was a my- a, like, a single unifying narrative right now, if there was a, some sort, what, what would your take on that be-

Chris Williamson 29:26 Ooh, God. Well, I mean-

Chase Reeves 29:28 ... if you had to swing?

Chris Williamson 29:29 The go- the, the, the, the altar that a lot of people are praying at at the moment is meritocracy.

Chase Reeves 29:35 Mm.

Chris Williamson 29:36 It's merit, right?

Chase Reeves 29:37 Mm.

Chris Williamson 29:38 Your successes are yours to bear.

Chase Reeves 29:39 Mm.

Chris Williamson 29:39 Your failures are yours to bear.

Chase Reeves 29:40 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 29:41 Alain de Botton's got this great example where he talks about the change in language over what we used to refer to people that didn't achieve in life as.

Chase Reeves 29:49 Mm.

Chris Williamson 29:50 And in ancient Greece, they'd be called unfortunates-

Chase Reeves 29:52 Mm.

Chris Williamson 29:52 ... because Lady Fortuna hadn't blessed them.

Chase Reeves 29:54 Yeah, right.

Chris Williamson 29:55 And I'm pretty sure Fortuna, Lady Fortuna, is the statue that's got the two scales, uh, and the reason for the scales was that you give and you take-

Chase Reeves 30:06 Mm.

Chris Williamson 30:06 ... that people understood that sometimes you would be given and sometimes you wouldn't. I think it's maybe Epictetus or one of the other famous Stoics, um, had lived his life in sort of grand luxury, um, maybe the assistant to one of the emperors, and then he got thrown in jail at the end of his life-

Chase Reeves 30:21 Mm.

Chris Williamson 30:21 ... and someone said, "You know, how can you deal with this?"

Chase Reeves 30:23 Mm.

Chris Williamson 30:23 He said, "Well, look at how much of a luxurious life I lived up until now. You know, Lady Fortuna just got round to me recently."

Chase Reeves 30:28 Mm.

Chris Williamson 30:29 ... the language changed and it was no longer the unfortunates. It wasn't that this per- person had been dealt a bad hand, they're now called losers.

Chase Reeves 30:37 Mm. Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 30:38 It's like, no, no, no, if your successes, if the people at the top are worthy of their successes-

Chase Reeves 30:41 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:43 ... what does that mean the people that are at the bottom are?

Chase Reeves 30:44 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:45 They're also worthy of their failures?

Chase Reeves 30:46 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:46 And that, for me, seems to be, uh, it's a very, uh, un-empathetic way to drive society forward. But it's really good at motivating people to go after it and-

Chase Reeves 30:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:58 ... put more hours into work.

Chase Reeves 30:58 But it has built into it that some are not going to. The, I get-

Chris Williamson 31:01 Oh, absolutely, it's a zero sum game.

Chase Reeves 31:03 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:03 You know, not everybody can be the CEO of Tesla.

Chase Reeves 31:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:05 Not everybody... Like, the, the whole point of being a top 1% earner, or a top 10% earner is that if you get in, you inevitably knock the person that was that space back down one.

Chase Reeves 31:14 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:15 That's the way that it works.

Chase Reeves 31:16 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:17 There's a, it's so interesting when you look at even the way that schools are done now, the way that the grading's done, at least in the UK, it's done on a distribution.

Chase Reeves 31:25 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:25 So, every single year you take the total number of grades and the person that is the best in the entire country is the highest-

Chase Reeves 31:31 Mm.

Chris Williamson 31:31 ... and the person that's the worst is there. And then everybody else just gets smeared across this. And they fill in a pre-defined distribution, there are this many A-stars, and this many As-

Chase Reeves 31:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:40 ... and this many Bs and Cs.

Chase Reeves 31:42 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:42 And that's how it's going to fit. So it, it literally baked in from childhood-

Chase Reeves 31:47 Mm.

Chris Williamson 31:47 ... that a zero sum game is how society works.

Chase Reeves 31:50 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:52 That doesn't seem like a particularly wholesome, spiritual way-

Chase Reeves 31:55 No.

Chris Williamson 31:56 ... to fulfill. Can you Topo Chico me up?

Chase Reeves 31:57 I can, yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:59 Also need to give a shout-out to Topo Chico. As a man that was certain that he didn't like, uh, sparkling water, San Pellegrino just never gave me the hit that I wanted.

Chase Reeves 32:12 No, you can't, you can't, those, those Italian bubbles just don't compare to these-

Chris Williamson 32:15 Mexican bubbles, man.

Chase Reeves 32:16 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 32:16 That's what we want. Uh, it just i- it's an elite level of water. But, most people in the UK, even the people that are into sparkling water, they're not aware of this. Have you also noticed there is a degree of, um, like there's a certain net worth that people get to after which they're no longer prepared to have still water?

Chase Reeves 32:36 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 32:36 It's like when you reach whatever, 250 grand a year in income, you gotta drink sparkling water and then tell all of your friends about it.

Chase Reeves 32:44 (laughs) Well, where did sparkling... I mean, like there's constantly sparkling water in my house now. That's like three years old as a market almost it seems like. You know, I know you could always go out to, to Europe and be like, "Would you like Stilo sparkling?" But, like here in, in the house it's grea- I, I live for it, right? Just at least a few, those first three sips when it's still ice cold. It's not hydrating, bad for our teeth.

Chris Williamson 33:11 (laughs)

Chase Reeves 33:12 You, you like, you, it literally doesn't make you less thirsty, right?

Chris Williamson 33:15 (laughs)

Chase Reeves 33:16 Like, it is a hit, it is like as bad as a hit of anything in terms of sensation, super sensory experience. But it's kinda nice to like have something cold and bubbly.

Chris Williamson 33:26 It is a good taste, man. But Topo Chico, if people think that they're not a sparkling water person, they need

Chris Williamson 33:30 to try out Topo Chico. It's-

Chase Reeves 33:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 33:31 So I wanted to talk about feral girl summer, uh, which I saw in The Independent a little while ago. "Feral girl summer is the latest dating trend to make single f- uh, single women feel inadequate. A new TikTok trend is encouraging women to embrace their 'authentic' selves, but what does it say about the pressures society places on women without partners?" So, as you might be aware, hot girl summer was a thing that was promoted, was it by, who did it, Megan the s- Megan Thee Stallion, uh, to capture the post-pandemic spirit of last year, trended on TikTok and Instagram, hot girl summer. Uh, and feral girl summer is about not shaving your legs. It's about thinking, uh, it's, (laughs) think Fleabag with a sprinkle of someone who has been at Glastonbury for three weeks. Ostensibly, the feral girl summer is not about dating, but as with hot girl summer, its definition is dependent on it. According to the dating app Badoo, 87% of female users felt pressured to have a hot girl summer in 2021, with 71% saying that this impacted their dating life. So, feral girl summer is whatever the opposite is of hot girl summer. It's talking about female autonomy, it's not giving a fuck. The attitude is similar to that perpetuated by the cool girl trope, problematic yet seductive depiction of subdued femininity created for the male gaze. So this is somehow, this is a trend created by women for women-

Chase Reeves 34:48 Mm.

Chris Williamson 34:48 ... but has somehow been, uh, screwed back around to it being a product of the patriarchy and its oppressive cis-heteronormative-

Chase Reeves 34:55 Is that what they're saying, that it's a product of the patriarchy?

Chris Williamson 34:58 Oh, everything is. Uh, similar, another Tik- (laughs) TikTok trend, goblin mode. Have you seen that? (laughs)

Chase Reeves 35:06 No. No. No, I like that though.

Chris Williamson 35:07 Goblin mode, the feral girl summer encourages women to forego beauty rituals in favor of more radicalized, unkempt aesthetics. You have to be your authentic self in order to qualify, and that apparently means throwing away your razor. Why? Because conforming to beauty standards makes us f- makes us bad feminists. Is having hairy legs supposed to make us feel empowered when we have sex? And if it doesn't, does that make us a failure? So basically it's a very unfalsifiable idea that womanhood is, um, archaic ideologies around womanhood-

Chase Reeves 35:34 Mm.

Chris Williamson 35:34 ... and this is something that's put forward by men. And you go, "Well, look at where most of the criticism about women's appearances come from."

Chase Reeves 35:41 Mm.

Chris Williamson 35:42 It's not men.

Chase Reeves 35:43 Mm。

Chris Williamson 35:44 It's mostly other women. Men criticize men and women criticize women. That doesn't mean that there isn't crossover, but beauty standards for women aren't created by men. We don't give a fuck about your new fast fashion and whether pastel shades are in, and whether... You remember a thigh gap, when a thigh gap was a thing? And now it's whether you've got like a big boo- a big bum.

Chase Reeves 36:05 Mm.

Chris Williamson 36:06 All of that came from women to women. It wasn't us. But the feral girl summer thing, I just think is, it- it's very, very interesting because it's always, it's showing very quickly this sort of vacillation from one extreme to another. Hot girl summer was supposed to be the pandemic's locked everybody down, summer's here, you're supposed to be your best self and go out and be glamorous with your friends and go to festivals and wear white boots and stuff like that.... within one year-

Chase Reeves 36:32 Mm.

Chris Williamson 36:33 ... it's now whatever the exact opposite is.

Chase Reeves 36:34 Well, it makes sense. They're really the same energy.

Chris Williamson 36:37 How do you mean?

Chase Reeves 36:38 Like, it's s- it's the sa- it, it's like they're actually, not only, yeah, they're two sides of the same coin, right? So it's really the same... I, I totally relate to the idea of, of trying to, trying to look a certain way, right? I mean, my whole life I've been so aesthetically minded, but, like, not, like, with necessarily good aesthetics, right? I was, like, a hardcore kid in the Bay Area, all black and, you know, I had, like-

Chris Williamson 37:02 (laughs)

Chase Reeves 37:02 ... a neck full of handmade beaded necklaces that showed you how straight edge I was or something like that, right?

Chris Williamson 37:07 Do you have the black cross on the back of the hand?

Chase Reeves 37:09 When we went to shows, sure.

Chris Williamson 37:10 Let's go.

Chase Reeves 37:11 Yeah. So, but, like, the aesthetics, li- like, my brother says I took myself out of the game before I was e- before it even started, right? Like, um, they're the same, they're, they're the same energy because back to the bit about authenticity, like, you're... You, you have to kind of know yourself a little bit to try to be honest about your inauthenticity, and I think it's actually quite hard to be honest about your in- inauthenticity, um, to even, to even grok it in any sort of way, right? It's like, it's actually kind of running in the background a bit, and it's hard to, to get back, uh, than it... It's harder to get back there than it is to, like, try something like this, which is very clear, be hot, this, which is very clear, be not hot. You know, it's like, oh, this is the, this feels like the same thing, be. You know-

Chris Williamson 38:01 Yeah.

Chase Reeves 38:01 ... be some... Maybe she's born with it, maybe it's Maybelline, it's like be-

Chris Williamson 38:04 Maybe it's hairy legs-

Chase Reeves 38:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 38:05 ... maybe it's underarmpits, yeah.

Chase Reeves 38:07 You know?

Chris Williamson 38:07 There's a, a really cool, uh, thing that I learned about memetic theory, so you know mimesis, right?

Chase Reeves 38:11 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 38:11 Rene Girard's thing.

Chase Reeves 38:12 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 38:12 Um, people copy people that are of high status, right? Megan Thee Stallion, h- high enough status to cause millions, probably, of girls to think about having a hot girl summer last year.

Chase Reeves 38:22 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 38:22 Now, there's two types of mimesis. I didn't know this. One is positive mimesis, which is when you model off somebody that's high status.

Chase Reeves 38:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 38:27 And the other is negative mimesis-

Chase Reeves 38:29 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 38:29 ... which is when you don't model off somebody that's low status. So the problem with trying to be a, a contrarian or a heterodox or a cynic or a skeptic, a lot of the time, that's no more nuanced or depth thinking than the other person. Or i- if, if all that you do is reflexively be contrarian to whatever the mainstream narrative is, that, that's no smarter than the people that just follow it. You've just-

Chase Reeves 38:54 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 38:54 ... inverted whatever the algorithm is. If it's-

Chase Reeves 38:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 38:56 It's the same with, you know, what happened with the vaccines and stuff like that, that caused a lot of people to be so distrusting of mainstream media because they'd seen them sort of flip-flop between-

Chase Reeves 39:04 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 39:04 ... different narratives a lot, that they became reflexive contrarians.

Chase Reeves 39:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:07 And you go, well, hang on, do you really think that the opposite unthinkingly, the opposite of whatever the mainstream says-

Chase Reeves 39:14 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:14 ... is somehow a more nuanced position than simply following it?

Chase Reeves 39:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:17 It's literally the exact position-

Chase Reeves 39:20 Right.

Chris Williamson 39:20 ... inverted.

Chase Reeves 39:21 Yeah, and I've heard you speak of that before, that sort of reflexive contrarian-ness, and it's something I really relate to. I've, like, I, I experienced that a lot, like my, my, my mind, my head s- sounds like that often. Or l- when I look back over life and, and see full, like, seasons or, or phases of my life that were lived in something that were-

Chris Williamson 39:40 Feral chase summer.

Chase Reeves 39:42 ... that were (laughs) that were just inspired by not being like that.

Chris Williamson 39:45 Yep.

Chase Reeves 39:45 Right?

Chris Williamson 39:45 Well, I mean, that's what this i- i- in fact, we've, that, I think that's a really good explanation for what it is.

Chase Reeves 39:49 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 39:50 It's two sides of the same coin. You had hot girl summer last year-

Chase Reeves 39:52 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:52 ... feral girl summer this year, and it's the contra- it's the reflexive contrarian thing. Last year, we were playing up to what men's standards were in terms of an oppressive, it was created by Megan Thee Stallion-

Chase Reeves 40:05 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 40:05 ... not a man.

Chase Reeves 40:06 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 40:06 Uh, therefore, this year, we're going to disregard-

Chase Reeves 40:09 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 40:09 ... uh, typical feminine beauty standards. And you go, well, hang on a second. When you don't feel nice when you do that, that's also not, that's not coming from some fucking bureaucratic organization-

Chase Reeves 40:20 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 40:20 ... telling you about how you're supposed to be. It's just naturally what's in the culture at the moment about what is femininity.

Chase Reeves 40:25 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:25 And for the most part, that's created by women.

Chase Reeves 40:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:27 And this reflexive heterodoxy, reflexive cynicism, skepticism thing, it, it really isn't a smart solution. It's no deeper, but it gives people a little bit more of a sense that they've done some work.

Chase Reeves 40:39 Right, and it, but it's like I don't even believe this... I don't even believe in this world anymore, this world of bloggers talking to each other about who's responsible for this, that, and the other. First of all, I bet there's, like, in terms of meaningful numbers of people who are in, who are, like, thinking that this hot girl or feral girl summer is important, it's, like, very minimal in terms of its significance, I, I imagine.

Chris Williamson 41:02 I think you'd be surprised, man.

Chase Reeves 41:03 Maybe, but I-

Chris Williamson 41:04 When it gets down to the girls' level, like, the... People want a archetype to latch onto. You know this.

Chase Reeves 41:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:11 You know this. Stories throughout the ages, they want an archetype.

Chase Reeves 41:15 Yeah, but I guess it's, sometimes it's just, like, when it's 20-year-olds, like, like-

Chris Williamson 41:20 Oh, my god.

Chase Reeves 41:20 ... screaming about, just screaming about, like, um, like, call me in, like, eight years, like, we're gonna, we're gonna get through some real shit. You've gotta, you've gotta... Like, life keeps going. It just keeps going.

Chris Williamson 41:30 Yeah.

Chase Reeves 41:30 Right? Like, you're having feral girl for a summer, you're having hot girl for a summer.

Chris Williamson 41:34 (laughs)

Chase Reeves 41:34 You know what I mean?

Chris Williamson 41:35 Well, I mean, that's a good point, the fact that, uh, what you do for the summer is a really important thing.

Chase Reeves 41:40 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 41:41 Only somebody that's been around on the planet for less than 20 years can think that that's a big deal.

Chase Reeves 41:45 Possibly. I mean, I love the idea that you can try on different shit, we can try on all of this stuff, and cool, go, explore. Try a bunch of stuff on, right? And realize how maybe not closer to who you, how you want to feel you still are. Right? It's like that Jim Carrey quote about, "I hope you get everything that you want and then realize, like, you still don't have it." You know? Like, you're still missing some essential bit, which is-

Chris Williamson 42:12 Armpit hair.

Chase Reeves 42:12 (laughs) Which is-

Chris Williamson 42:13 Which is armpit hair.

Chase Reeves 42:13 (laughs) It is. I mean, I, I'm, I'm around a lot of women who are, who are consciously not, not shav- have you ever shaved your legs, by the way?

Chris Williamson 42:21 No. Have you?

Chase Reeves 42:21 Oh, yeah. I had a long-

Chris Williamson 42:22 Right. How's it feel?

Chase Reeves 42:23 ... season of it. Oh, dude. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 42:24 So you had a hot girl summer.

Chase Reeves 42:25 I had a very hot girl summer.

Chris Williamson 42:27 (laughs)

Chase Reeves 42:27 Back in the day, these are like, these legs, these, these leg hairs are like tree trunks. I, by the way, I would only go up halfway through my thigh because it's a nightmare going higher. I literally had hair shorts. I mean, just getting th- there's just more thick hair up there. Hilarious. But I just loved getting into bed with a clean shaven leg. It, you never felt anything like it. And then you get one chill and beep, all these little pricks start showing up and it's done. It's over.

Chris Williamson 42:54 Like a turkey that's-

Chase Reeves 42:55 So I-

Chris Williamson 42:55 ... been plucked.

Chase Reeves 42:56 ... I relate to the like, to like I don't wanna be shaving my legs anymore.

Chris Williamson 42:59 Mm-hmm.

Chase Reeves 42:59 Right? I relate to that so much, even though I like, that was, uh, you know, I had my hot, it was just a summer I was doing that. Uh, but it was, I highly recommend anybody out there to shave their legs.

Chris Williamson 43:09 I have a buddy who does that for, um, uh, jujitsu 'cause he's adamant that it helps him with leg lock escapes.

Chase Reeves 43:13 There you go. Get a little slicker.

Chris Williamson 43:14 He's certain that it makes him more slippery.

Chris Williamson 43:16 Yeah, exactly.

Chase Reeves 43:16 You know?

Chris Williamson 43:16 Right. Okay. So we've also got, uh, white gay privilege. So there was an article that came out today, uh, for LGBTQ+ people of color, racism also impacts how they are perceived. It is a sad reality that being part of a marginalized societal group exposes you to hate, discrimination, and u- unequal treatment. It's a fact well-known by people in the LGBT ch- clue, Q+ community who experience this kind of hostility based on their gender and/or sexuality. However, for people whose identities intersect multiple marginalized groups, there are more things to consider. For people of color, racism also impacts how they are perceived and treated by wider society, so people from the LGBTQ+ community who do not have to worry about racism as well possess white gay privilege. "I think I knew white gay privilege was a thing before we had a name for it," Lady Phyll, one of the founders of UK Black Pride, tells metro.co.uk. And this is just the beginning of intersectionality eating its own.

Chase Reeves 44:15 Mm. Mm.

Chris Williamson 44:15 I think. The fact that as soon as you have intersecting, uh, hierarchies of grievance and privilege, it's no longer enough to just be gay. You know, uh, Douglas Murray was sat in that very seat where you're sat.

Chase Reeves 44:28 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 44:28 And he said that because he's gay and Conservative, he's basically straight now.

Chase Reeves 44:31 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 44:32 He's an honorary straight.

Chase Reeves 44:33 Mm. Mm.

Chris Williamson 44:34 And, uh, this, I mean, if no one can see that this is the beginning of a circular firing squad, where the purity spiral just continues to shave off people on the outside-

Chase Reeves 44:45 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 44:45 ... that are no longer sufficiently oppressed-

Chase Reeves 44:47 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:48 It's like, "Hang on. Oh, you're white and gay?"

Chase Reeves 44:49 Mm.

Chris Williamson 44:50 "I'm afraid that that kinda means you're not that gay anymore, friend."

Chase Reeves 44:54 Mm.

Chris Williamson 44:54 "You're, you don't get to have the same-"

Chase Reeves 44:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:56 "... oppression Olympics that we do."

Chase Reeves 44:57 Yeah. No, I, I, I've heard, uh, a few gay men, white gay men before speak of things in this direction but didn't have a term yet. But, and to the point of, of like the, the w- again, it's like the world of, the world of bloggers blogging at other bloggers about what they should blog about and they're, and, and it's ju- it's like a, a Roboro snake eating its, its own tail kind of thing, where I'm so disconnected from that world. It's not the world of like how to say, like... Uh, I, I feel we've, we've got so much, um... It's, it's interesting. Like, existential r- fear is so high in terms of like it's so hard to make money or to get to a level. We're comparing ourselves to people who are further and further and further away from where we are now. Right? We've got all of this chatter, this noise that we're, that we, we've gotta deal with. And yet we're so, not everybody, but we're so safe. There's, I, I think of, I got to go on safari in Africa, for example. And, uh, with my friend who, who like guided us literally on the ground, on foot, lions and tigers and bears, oh my. Like, you're on the ground, there's a rino- We were tracking a rhino for a long time, and then we got to this place where it was like, oh shit, it's right on the other side of that bush. We could hear it breathing. And it smelled us, and it could tell something was up. And you could hear it getting a little like irritated, like what's going on? And then when a rhino is, just starts running, and then it, and it could easily just run in this direction and just, you know, it literally just has a horn. They call a group of rhinos a crash of rhinos 'cause they can run like 60 miles an hour and see eight feet in front of them, right? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 46:42 (laughs)

Chase Reeves 46:42 They're, they're like a group, the group of rhinos is called a crash of rhinos. I love the names of, like a flamboyance of flamingos, you know? But in that space, first of all, your nervous system goes, "Oh, I remember this shit," 'cause we're talking millions and millions of years, that's what we're shaped by. "Oh, I remember this." That was clarifying, it felt grounding in a strange way. Um, teeth and horns and claws, nature red in tooth and claw. We're so far from that. Not saying that like... Louis C.K. has this amazing bit, it's like, "We should let one lion loose in New York. Just one. Just one." (laughs) So anytime you're walking anywhere it's like a little bit more of that thing. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 47:29 You're just on edge. It's a bit more exciting.

Chase Reeves 47:31 Just like, "Yeah, I made it this time." But the, the distance that we have from, from what it takes to make civilization work is I think, uh, one reason why we're able to circle jerk as intensely as we can around who, who ha- is living in injustice and who-

Chris Williamson 47:55 Which type of gay person is the one that's got the most oppression.

Chase Reeves 47:58 (laughs) That's very... Well said. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 48:00 Yeah. But I mean, the problem that you have is that only in a world that's this convenient would you be able to larp with so many different games that you're playing.

Chase Reeves 48:09 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:09 I s- I heard this quote the other day which is so perfect, and it said, "The demand for racism outstrips the supply-"

Chase Reeves 48:16 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 48:18 "... at the moment."

Chase Reeves 48:19 That's a fascinating idea.

Chris Williamson 48:21 Yeah. And what you think about is that the Ibram X Kendis of the world and the anti-racism trainers of the world and the people who take their social status from it, not even the people that make money, you know, just the people that are able to tweet about it, the people who rely on racism to give them their sense of self and position and power in the world need racism to continue.So what do they do? They continue to expand the definition of racism to encompass more and more and more things.

Chase Reeves 48:45 Mm-hmm. I just re- I just spent, um, some good time with a Native American teacher, he's a Comanche, and he's a descendant of Quanah Parker who was the, the last chief of, of the Comanches. And, and I, like, in experiences with him, like, I got to learn so much about, like, a land literally taken from people. And, and I connect ... I, I just, I, I love learning more about that even though it is actually really visceral, like, to learn about, like, the, the fact that we're really on, like, we really are privy or, or accomplice in some way to this, to... L- like, these people live with this, and they keep ... They're, they're still here. They keep living. And Quanah was actually a really interesting bridge between those worlds, um, between his world and, and the world that, that he, like, was coaching his people like, "Hey man, this is coming. We have to do something about this." And he's, he's like, "You can take our land but you can't take our medicine. You can't take our way of life." Uh, I, I definitely connect to that story. I connect to the ... I mean, I had this coffee book when I was young of Martin Luther King, and I remember in high school just learning about the civil rights and just going like, "What the fuck?" Like, just, "What the hell? This is ..." And it just defined me, the, this struggle, this, like, the, the, that, that people ... And that people, A, that people were treated that way, and then, and then it just kept getting more intense, the layers of it, just the realization of how pervasive this activity of, of owning people, putting them to work, the differing levels of, of who gets treated in what way, uh, different classifications of people, different ... I still feel very strongly that we live in, like, a caste system. There are different sort of castes.

Chris Williamson 50:39 How so?

Chase Reeves 50:41 Just, it just feels like I'm in the stage that I'm in. We all have, uh, I think ... I believe in the opportunities for upward mobility, and I believe in, and this might sound like a shitty fucking bearded white thing to say, but this, there's a kind of a value in accepting where I am as like this is my, this is my level, this is where I'm, I'm at in life. 'Cause then, 'cause then I can, like, I can feed my family. I can, I can do these things. I can feel the richness of it and not continually strive, strive, strive.

Chris Williamson 51:08 Well, I mean, that's, that's, yeah, tha- that's a- a- an interesting way to look at it, that that's an inner citadel that you can retreat to as well, right? Or a cope.

Chase Reeves 51:14 I've gotta come to terms with it, right?

Chris Williamson 51:16 But the, the reason that it's so satisfying, uh, and so reassuring and, and comforting to get to is that it stops the drive. It stops at least a little bit of the drive for more.

Chase Reeves 51:25 Yeah. But I'm looking for excuses to feel satisfied.

Chris Williamson 51:28 Yeah, precisely.

Chase Reeves 51:29 You know?

Chris Williamson 51:29 But, uh, again, ancient Greek word for work used to be not-at-leisure.

Chase Reeves 51:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:34 Like, it shouldn't be the case that you feel like your primary source of value to the world, as a father of, like, lots of children-

Chase Reeves 51:43 Mm.

Chris Williamson 51:43 ... and a husband and a creator and all of this stuff, that your primary source of value to the world is whether or not you can double your income over the next five years.

Chase Reeves 51:50 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:50 That's not supposed to be-

Chase Reeves 51:52 Mm.

Chris Williamson 51:52 ... the way that we're supposed to value each other.

Chase Reeves 51:54 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 51:55 But in a world which is bereft of community and connection and sense of, um, belonging to the wider mythos of the, the, uh, nation that you're in, what have you got?

Chase Reeves 52:10 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 52:10 You know, I've got my bank account.

Chase Reeves 52:11 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 52:11 And I've got my social media followers.

Chase Reeves 52:12 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 52:13 And I've got my watch time on YouTube.

Chase Reeves 52:14 An endless possibility.

Chris Williamson 52:16 Yeah. And I've got my ability to accuse other people in my group of not being as oppressed as me.

Chase Reeves 52:22 Yeah. And it-

Chris Williamson 52:22 And it's just different games.

Chase Reeves 52:23 All of that is just like ... L- I lived in Portland for 15 years, and I was really, uh, sort of kind of by default in, in a world somewhat like that. And I've since just gotten so far away from it. It just does not feel like the real world at all. It's no longer a part of a- any conversations that I'm a part of. Not because my friend group is super homogeneous or anything like that. Just because the people that I'm with, this is not what defines our, our interests and our curiosities day-by-day. Like, we're, we're not, uh, we're not personally motivated by it like that. And, and so it's just, like, it's just lost so much of its teeth. The whole culture war thing, like you were saying about the vaccination stuff where it's like, all right, I kinda don't care a lot about what the CDC's recommendations are, like, maybe-

Chris Williamson 53:14 Yeah.

Chase Reeves 53:14 ... forever.

Chris Williamson 53:15 It's like the boy who cried wolf, isn't it?

Chase Reeves 53:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 53:17 You know, if everything's racism, then nothing's racism. If, if everything is a health s- health risk, then nothing's a health risk.

Chase Reeves 53:23 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 53:23 And after a while, people only get so many chances at singing and dancing and shouting about stuff before you just start to switch off. In fact-

Chase Reeves 53:31 And I want stuff that's gonna be useful for our ... Like, I literally have to make the future. I literally have to put food on the table for my kids and, and my fam- And I literally have people around me who I care, uh, uh, if, if there's things going really bad for them, like, I, I want them to go better. So I'm looking for meaningful information and insights about where the world is going, about what, what opportunity is worth investing in so that thir- 13 years from now you're, you didn't just double down on something that's totally fucking evaporated. You know?

Chris Williamson 54:06 Not intellectual lopping horse shit about-

Chase Reeves 54:09 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 54:09 ... privilege and intersectionality.

Chris Williamson 54:11 There's this really cool thing I learned about the other day called fire hosing. With, with so many competing narratives in the digital age-

Chase Reeves 54:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 54:17 ... disinformation agents can't convince you of any single narrative.

Chase Reeves 54:21 Mm.

Chris Williamson 54:21 So instead they overwhelm you with many contradictory narratives until you start to doubt everything and become confused, demoralized and passive.

Chase Reeves 54:28 So this idea that, like, just, like ... So how valuable is it for you to be off-kilter and have a wa- Like, it's like, now I can do something with you. If you're, if you, if you're unsure and insecure, now I can con- like, direct you in a certain way a little bit easier. It's harder to have a-... a sense of place and direction, and stick with it, right? That's why one of the things that's valuable having a career. It's like this is the industry that I'm in, and this is... You said in the car, like, becoming the best podcaster you can be. That's such a direction. It so has, like, bumpers on it at the, at the bowling alley, you know? You know, you know where you-

Chris Williamson 55:07 There are some guard rails that you can follow.

Chase Reeves 55:09 Right? And that is... That can be a thing that you get to, uh, I don't know, that you, that you, that you get to, uh... You're hiring that direction in a way that keeps you. It's like a rudder or a s- fin on a surfboard. It keeps you from going off and all-

Chris Williamson 55:26 All over the place.

Chase Reeves 55:26 ... like, where it's like, okay, you're not being a good enough socially conscious justice warrior. You're not... You don't understand enough about the hardships here, there, and other, other... everywhere.

Chris Williamson 55:34 People use, or, uh, people can supplant that with a lot of different things though.

Chase Reeves 55:39 Mm.

Chris Williamson 55:39 People can decide that the thing that they're going to pursue is going to be the most equitable campaigning, intersectional, LGBTQ+ person that they can be.

Chase Reeves 55:49 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 55:50 And that's... That becomes their status game.

Chase Reeves 55:52 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 55:52 And is it possible to say that objectively some status games are more virtuous than others? You... Uh, I don't know. I'd need, like, a philosopher friend here to, to work that one out. But, I mean, in terms of adding value, like real world, give me, tell me what is happening.

Chase Reeves 56:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:08 Maybe, maybe I'm totally wrong, right? Maybe there is a huge problem in the Black, gay, and lesbian community where they're being os- ostracized by the whites in the lesbian and gay community. I'm not sure.

Chase Reeves 56:21 Mm.

Chris Williamson 56:22 It seems to me like time could be better spent on other things, right?

Chase Reeves 56:27 On finding a partner to get fucking delicious sex with, right?

Chris Williamson 56:31 That... I mean, it's not that hard if you're in the... especially if you're one of the Gs.

Chase Reeves 56:34 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 56:35 If you're one of the Ls, it's a bit more difficult 'cause you've got... you know, you've got two gatekeepers.

Chase Reeves 56:37 I don't know. It's like it's just not, n- not where I live. It's, like, not where I'm from, you know? I just really don't know what the weather's like there.

Chris Williamson 56:43 A lot of action, a lot of action going on with the Gs.

Chase Reeves 56:44 (laughs) Okay.

Chris Williamson 56:45 A lot of action.

Chase Reeves 56:46 But I, I, I do think there's, there's like a, a spiritual practice a- and a, and a, uh, like a recommendation I'm making to people that's like be what you're, what you're in... And if what you're in is, like, who has... who's seeing the most injustice, then, then, like, let's bring, br- let that, let that be your goal. Bring more justice. Bring, bring more justice. And if that's not what your, what your gig is, I certainly do believe that there are s-... Uh, two things. One, like we talked about before, there are, there are certain constructs, like you were talking about meritocracy and, um, and losers are... Like, with, like, that word is just such a fucking... Pssh.

Chris Williamson 57:25 Yep.

Chase Reeves 57:25 Like I have that in my, in my inner critic so, so hard, like this, the smell of the cat wafting from behind me-

Chris Williamson 57:32 Yep, yep, yep.

Chase Reeves 57:32 ... pushing me forward. And, like, I want that to lose some of its power because I, I want, I want that to... I want that to actually be turned in on itself until it, it dissolves, it doesn't exist anymore, right? Loser is not a real thing, but that... It's hard for my psyche to, to, to believe that. So there are some constructs that actually make losers and winners. There are others that do a better job of rising tide floats all boats, of less of a zero-to-sum game, more of an infinite game, right? We know... Like, we need our schmactenbergers and our, and our big thinkers to help us evaluate these structures. That's one thing. A second thing is I really do believe that how it's always actually been is we come... We're actually building a society from the bottom up. We're actually... We actually build it. These individuals actually build it. That's-

Chris Williamson 58:24 But that's, that's scary. Think about the fact that each individual does actually get to contribute to the way that society is built.

Chase Reeves 58:30 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 58:30 There are a lot of fucking idiots out there.

Chase Reeves 58:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:32 There are a lot of people who have got-

Chase Reeves 58:33 But as Texas says, there's a, a, you know, a well-armed populous is a peaceful populous, right? Like, the idea that, like, we're not gonna get away from that scariness. Yeah, we can... Yeah, there's gonna be some Proud Boys and some alt-right and some really far, far left and, and there's, there, there's gonna be that distribution, like you talk about the grades in the UK. There is. That's the fucking state of nature, right? And we're, we're going... We're on the spaceship. We're on planet Earth as our spaceship. I love the idea of being other places. I love the... at least the narrative it gives us, right, in the, in the solar system. But the nearest fucking star beyond our solar system is so far away (laughs) . Like, we're... We c- we can only lean on the idea of a fusion and bending space and time and stuff that is, like, feels like we're really close, but it's still, uh, like I'll believe it when I see it, right? Is the way a lot of people feel about it. But that's the state of nature. There's gonna be buffoons and idiots. There's gonna be brilliant people, people w-... You know, we're all on the spectrums, so to speak, right? And I do think civilization grows from the bottom up and, and we need those structures and those systems placed on top and we want... There's some that are better than others, and I do, I do lean on my, my bro Daniel Schmactenberg to help me figure out (laughs) which ones are which. However, I'm... I have to own my part of this, and a lot of that is, is, is, like, the raising of my kids, the be-... The, the... all the other kids-

Chris Williamson 1:00:04 What can I influence directly?

Chase Reeves 1:00:04 All the other kids at, at... Like, the families at my s- at my kids' school. Like, the, the clients that I work with. Like, all of this stuff. The people who watch my videos. Keep going. I feel like the scarier... Like, like, the, the mental health concerns are massive. Like, i- i-... Uh, the way that I struggle with it, and I'm a man of immense privilege, is, like, I wouldn't... I don't know. Like, I... Maybe some of these buffoons are better at being happier and we have stuff to learn from them in some ways. However, there are consequences to our actions and, and, you know... I don't know. I've talked myself into a fucking pit here around-

Chris Williamson 1:00:43 Well, thi- uh, think about... Think about it this way, that you've seen the midwit meme, right?

Chase Reeves 1:00:47 Which one is that?

Chris Williamson 1:00:47 Uh, so it looks like a bell curve, and at one side you have this dude that looks like a Neanderthal and then in the middle you have, sort of, this angry-... specky-

Chase Reeves 1:00:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:56 ... sort of liberal person.

Chase Reeves 1:00:57 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:00:57 And then on the right hand side, you have this sort of sage guy with his hood up.

Chase Reeves 1:01:00 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:01:00 And the meme is all about the fact that the guy that's really stupid and the guy that's really smart arrives at the same conclusion.

Chase Reeves 1:01:06 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:01:06 It's the person in the middle, the midwit in the middle-

Chase Reeves 1:01:08 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:01:08 ... which is most people.

Chase Reeves 1:01:09 Midwit, that's hilarious.

Chris Williamson 1:01:10 Yeah, it's-

Chase Reeves 1:01:11 I haven't heard this before.

Chris Williamson 1:01:12 Michael Malice popularized the term. It wasn't his to create, but he popularized it.

Chase Reeves 1:01:15 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:01:15 So midwits, right? And Midwit Appeal Theorem says that by definition most content has to appeal to midwits because most people are midwits.

Chase Reeves 1:01:24 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:01:25 And the content that propagates the most is the one that appeals to more people.

Chase Reeves 1:01:27 That's the scariest thing on the planet to me. This i- this idea that- that- that... Uh, I'm- I'm a YouTuber, uh, one of the things I do is- is make YouTube videos. As any content creator can- who's been doing it for long enough can tell you, it's like there's a draw to doing things that will become more popular.

Chris Williamson 1:01:43 Content capture.

Chase Reeves 1:01:44 And- and in the same way that, you know, our R- Roman magistrate putting Jesus to- to death is- is like putting it to the people. It's like, the people make bad calls oftentimes, and those midwits aren't the buffoons, they're not the ones who are the crazy ones on the outskirts of society, right? They're- they're the all of us, they're the sort of we the people, is the- is the feeling of it.

Chris Williamson 1:02:09 Going back to what you said earlier on about cognitively being able to convince yourself of a lot of different things-

Chase Reeves 1:02:13 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:02:13 ... you know, cerebrally you can get in with your mind and convince yourself of something that your intuition is screaming at you to do or not to do.

Chase Reeves 1:02:20 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:02:21 That's the danger, right?

Chase Reeves 1:02:22 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:02:22 It takes an awful lot of smart-

Chase Reeves 1:02:24 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:02:24 ... to actually be able to convince yourself of something that you know inherently in your being and in your fibers is something that should or shouldn't happen.

Chase Reeves 1:02:31 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:02:31 And that's the- that's the danger of the midway, it's the Dunning-Kruger effect, right?

Chase Reeves 1:02:35 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:02:35 It's this sort of valley of incompetence that you go through before you actually-

Chase Reeves 1:02:39 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:02:39 ... come out the other side.

Chase Reeves 1:02:40 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:02:40 But e- for instance, if you were to look at, um, (clicks tongue) uh, how to, uh, get in shape, um, like lift weights, eat protein. Then in the middle it would be, I must optimize my fasting window timing-

Chase Reeves 1:02:54 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:02:54 ... to ensure that the pre-digested enzymes from my morning coffee-

Chase Reeves 1:02:58 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:02:58 ... of grass-fed butter is blah, blah, blah. Down to the other side, like, lift weights, eat protein.

Chase Reeves 1:03:02 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:02 Like, that- that's what you end up arriving at.

Chase Reeves 1:03:04 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:04 The idiot and the- the sage-

Chase Reeves 1:03:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:06 ... are both the same sort of outcome.

Chase Reeves 1:03:08 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:03:09 And it's the person in the middle, which is most people, that end up over-complicating things.

Chase Reeves 1:03:12 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:12 And this is where the status games come from. It's like, the stupid person and the really smart person, it's like, um, find job that you care about, live in place that fulfills you, have family that makes you happy.

Chase Reeves 1:03:22 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:03:23 In the middle, it's I must ensure that all of the oppression in the world is being completely ameliorated 'cause I need to compensate for all of the issues that my ancestors have d- like...

Chase Reeves 1:03:32 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:32 Place that you want to live with a family that you care about doing a job that you love.

Chase Reeves 1:03:36 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:36 Like, that's it. And, you know, over-complicating things, one of the problems you have is that it's really difficult once you start on that path, like, through midwitery.

Chase Reeves 1:03:44 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:03:45 You- you can no longer regress back. You don't get to slow the car down. The only way out is through.

Chase Reeves 1:03:51 I don't know, part of me feels like I have- I have, uh... Oh, may- maybe, maybe you're right, you kind of have to go over the- over the hill into- into somewhat of a- a sage territory or something. But there, you know, in- in Buddhism there's this idea of chop wood and carry water. Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. Right? And there's this one, my- one of my favorite coffee shops up in, or bakery shops in Portland had this great thing on the- the wall, it was like, "Chop wood, carry water, listen to Neil Young." (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:04:19 (laughs) That's the- that's the addition that they did

Narrator 1:04:21 Yeah.

Chase Reeves 1:04:21 I liked it. I probably wouldn't, I- I'm like, I find myself less interested in listening to Neil Young after the Spotify shit.

Chris Williamson 1:04:27 Think about the fact that, um, so many people that we know that are in Austin here are deciding to do homesteading or they're building ranches and stuff. And one of my buddies was saying, "Hey man, I've got this ranch, I've just bought this spot, uh, it needs some work doing, I'm going out there most weekends." And immediately I thought to myself, "I'm so down." If you want me-

Chase Reeves 1:04:47 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:04:47 ... to hammer a fence in-

Chase Reeves 1:04:48 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:49 ... for six hours on a Saturday afternoon-

Chase Reeves 1:04:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:51 ... in 110 degree heat, I'm there.

Chase Reeves 1:04:54 Topo Chico would never taste better.

Chris Williamson 1:04:56 That would taste good.

Chase Reeves 1:04:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:57 Um, but wh- hang on a second, like, w- uh, why is everybody going to university and trying to gain money and status if you end up getting to that stage and then all that you want to do is fucking hammer a fence?

Chase Reeves 1:05:10 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:05:11 And you go, that- that's supposed to be, you know, low in-

Chase Reeves 1:05:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:05:16 ... complexity-

Chase Reeves 1:05:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:05:17 ... indigent laborer work stuff.

Chase Reeves 1:05:19 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:05:19 And yet it's the thing that compels you to go forward.

Chase Reeves 1:05:22 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:05:22 Again, it's like, you know, the sage and the idiot arrive at the same place.

Chase Reeves 1:05:25 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:05:25 There's another thing that I, this quote that I really want to show you from Naval,

Chris Williamson 1:05:29 and he says, um, "Karma is just you repeating your patterns, virtues and flaws until you finally get what you deserve."

Chase Reeves 1:05:37 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:05:38 And it just made me think about the fact that a lot of the time in life you see people that are repeatedly successful or repeatedly unsuccessful.

Chase Reeves 1:05:45 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:05:45 And you're like, you're the common denominator between all of these experiences.

Chase Reeves 1:05:49 Right, right.

Chris Williamson 1:05:49 Is it that every one of your exes has happened to be a possessive, controlling, crazy person-

Chase Reeves 1:05:55 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:05:56 ... or do you cause something that comes out of them? Or are you able to choose that type of person? Or are you attracted to that type of person?

Chase Reeves 1:06:03 Yeah, I think there's this really big, there's this really big insight that is- is so simple but it can real- it can change- it can change so much of the landscape of your life and it is so, it's just around taking responsibility for where you are. I find people are... I- uh, a lot of successful people I- I hear, and- and I'm one of these, like, don't want to take ownership of their own success, first of all. So, like, it's actually surprisingly easy not to take ownership of the success that you- that you've... Like, I'm terrible, I don't feel successful at all, right? And I tend to take responsibility over, like, the poor things in my life, the things that are ba- that I'm doing badly in my life, for sure. That seems to be a little bit easier. However, like, there's this mentor I worked with for a long time named Dan Tacchini, who's-... for 40 years, he's been just doing these workshops, these four-day workshops. Right now, he calls them the Revenant. They've been called a lot of other things. Four days, no substance, no psychedelic or anything. This guy is super shamanic and just a windowless hotel room, and, and you just get to encounter yourself amidst all these other people encountering themselves. And he's basically saying, keep your fucking promises. What promises have you made? Take responsibility. Own your life. Take ownership over your life. These very basic things, but structured in this exercises that you're, like, it comes through in these ins- insights, these revelations sometimes. You pop. Everybody pops. I broke in the middle of it, you know? It's like, that's what, that's what happens in these things. The pressure just builds. But that idea of taking responsibility, going like, all right, what happens to me is gonna be on me. And that- that says nothing about, like, that doesn't mean that the universe isn't here as a co-partner with you, dancing alongside of you. It just means, like, what you're in control of, you're gonna be in control of, you know? And...

Chris Williamson 1:08:02 What's the alternative?

Chase Reeves 1:08:03 That's so, it's so, what, exactly. What's the alternative?

Chris Williamson 1:08:06 What is the alternative?

Chase Reeves 1:08:07 Well, the alternative is, it's their fucking problem or it's their fucking fault or it's the, it's because of this or it's because of that or it's Mom or it's Dad. It's everything that, that actually we all get a lot of, out of these narratives, right?

Chris Williamson 1:08:20 I never have. I never have. And this is the other side, I guess, of, um, whatever the solopreneur only child syndrome thing. It's great because it means that you never have a victim mentality, but what you find is you take responsibility for things that you're not responsible for.

Chase Reeves 1:08:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:08:36 And that's pernicious in a different way. I think it's probably less destructive socially, but it's more destructive personally.

Chase Reeves 1:08:42 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:08:43 So, you know, something goes wrong, and you find a way to make it your fault, even if it wasn't.

Chase Reeves 1:08:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:08:48 That's taking too much responsibility. I tried to ask Jordan Peterson this, and I was like, "Hey. You like people taking responsibility for their actions. Is there such a thing as taking too much responsibility?"

Chase Reeves 1:08:59 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:09:00 Uh, I'm gonna ask Jocko Willink the same question.

Chase Reeves 1:09:02 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:09:03 You know, extreme ownership's his thing. Like, have you considered about whether or not there's such a thing as too much ownership?

Chase Reeves 1:09:08 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:09:10 What about if you start to scale your problems? You start to insert yourself into the problems-

Chase Reeves 1:09:18 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:09:18 ... that aren't yours?

Chase Reeves 1:09:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:09:21 Well, how- how long can you do that before you're no longer able to show up for anybody, even the people that need you?

Chase Reeves 1:09:25 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:09:25 Even the people that you should own, that you should be responsible for?

Chase Reeves 1:09:29 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:09:29 Uh, and I do feel that there's a, a danger to that.

Chase Reeves 1:09:32 It's all forms and constructs, right? That, and, and like you pin yourself to any of them, it's just like pinning yourself to that hero, the quote in the very beginning. Like it's really, it- it- it continues. Life keeps going. It continues to go. You get converted to an idea, and then you might see more nuance and perspective and find that to be, like, like the tantrics would say, like there, it's this, it's this, it's this spectrum. We're suspended between two poles of this thing. So taking too much responsibility is like one direction taking responsibility can go. Taking not enough is another direction. It's probably some, you know, Niels Bohr has this quote is like, "Oh good, we found a paradox. Now we might be able to make some progress." Niels Bohr was this, like, physicist, amazing, radical dude.

Chris Williamson 1:10:18 What's that mean to you? What's that quote mean to you?

Chase Reeves 1:10:19 This idea that, like, first of all, to your point about first principles and, and principles being things that can actually scale and you can stick with over time, principles tend to operate on, like things that last a long time operate on paradoxes, right? It's like, it- it's- it's you're ... What's a, what's a good example? Uh, for some reason all I'm thinking of is like you're alive and yet you're going to die. Like that's not a great example of a paradox. Like, uh, my friend group, we just did a, a like a ceremonial weekend, and we're an inclusive group, but we're also exclusive. That's paradoxical, right?

Chris Williamson 1:10:54 Mm-hmm.

Chase Reeves 1:10:54 And it's in the play of that that you, that the- the, I don't know, that the meaning is made, but also that decisions are made and that people who weren't there a week ago are there today and end up shaping the space in a meaningful way, right? And people aren't there who could have been there that, like, that would have shifted it in a way we may- may not have been beneficial because that's, it's like paradox is like I'm a, I'm an alive sexual being who has the freedom of the world and I'm tethered to one woman on purpose, right? That's a, that's a, there's actually a lot of life when you pull that apart. Stuff that we can pull apart ends up feeling like ... So taking too much responsibility, taking not enough responsibility, probably too simplified of a construct. Life does tend to have this like more like, ooh, let's pull it apart and it's less of a getting to the answers of things and more feeling the quality of the question and maybe not having, even coming to an answer, but still having to take steps and directions and letting it come together over time.

Chris Williamson 1:11:57 Chase Reeves, ladies and gentlemen. If people want to check out the stuff that you do online, where should they go?

Chase Reeves 1:12:01 You should go to chasereeves.co. I've got all the links to everything there. Uh, if you're interested in me, that's where you can find me. I'm on Twitter and Instagram, YouTube, and I'm making videos about backpacks for the most part. (laughs) On, I don't know how that happened.

Chris Williamson 1:12:15 Good backpacks though.

Chase Reeves 1:12:17 Great backpacks.

Chris Williamson 1:12:17 I appreciate you, man. Thank you.

Chase Reeves 1:12:18 I appreciate you. Thanks, dude.

Chris Williamson 1:12:20 What's happening, people? Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks, and don't forget to subscribe. Peace.