The Truth About Microplastics - Dr Rhonda Patrick

1. 0:00 – 5:27

   What You Need to Know About Microplastics

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      What have you been interested in recently? You're always learning new stuff.

   2. RPDr Rhonda Patrick0:03

      Yeah, I think most recently I've had a real interest in ultra-processed foods, in plastic, microplastics, their associated chemicals, what they're doing to human health. That's, that's been my latest obsession.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:18

      Okay, microplastics. Teach me about them-

   4. RPDr Rhonda Patrick0:21

      What are they?

   5. CWChris Williamson0:21

      ... what are they? What do they do?

   6. RPDr Rhonda Patrick0:22

      (inhales deeply) So, microplastics, I mean, we're all familiar with plastic, you know, if you take a look in your refrigerator or your pantry, I mean, almost everything is packaged in some kind of plastic container. (inhales deeply) Plastic breaks down over time, right? So things that can accelerate that breakdown would be, like, heat, exposure to, exposure to oxygen. And so that breakdown sheds plastic particles into whatever is being contained in that plastic container; food, beverages, whatever. So, um, microplastics, they sort of vary in size, anywhere between five mic, so five microns or micromille, micromillimeters to 100 nanome- meters in size. And when they're, like, five micromille, micromillimeters, that's like something that would be equivalent to a size of, like, a grain of rice. You can see it. When you get down to the 100 nanomillimeter range, I mean, that's like a thousand times smaller than a grain of rice, so you're not going to see it, right? And that's... Honestly, those are actually technically nanoplastics, but we all just kind of call them microplastics just for simplicity. Um, and these microplastics are getting into food, um, as we consume whatever food they're contained in, whether it's a beverage or, you know, uh, disposable food. You're digesting it, and they can be absorbed, right? Now, not all of them are absorbed. I think, I think, you know, it's... There's some studies sh- saying that we, uh, we basically consume anywhere between, um, you know, hundreds to thousands of particles a day. So, how much of that we absorb? Not all of it, you know, fraction of it.

   7. CWChris Williamson2:03

      Mm-hmm.

   8. RPDr Rhonda Patrick2:03

      But it's a lot of particles that we're absorbing every day. And, um, you know, the- these microplastics are in our water, so water is contaminated with them. If you think about water treatment plants, you know, wastewater treatment plants are treating the water for pathogens, right? Viruses, bacteria. They're not treating them for plastics-

   9. CWChris Williamson2:24

      Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

   10. RPDr Rhonda Patrick2:25

       ... that are getting into the water. And our water sources are contaminated for a variety of reasons, not to mention if you, if you're, you know, turning on your faucet and getting water through the sink. Oftentimes, the water is tran- transported through these pipes that are made of, you know, PVC, which breaks down. The, you know, there, there's plastic in that and it breaks down over time-

   11. CWChris Williamson2:46

       Mm-hmm.

   12. RPDr Rhonda Patrick2:46

       ... and sheds microplastic into your water.

   13. CWChris Williamson2:48

       Mm-hmm.

   14. RPDr Rhonda Patrick2:49

       So water is another source. Of course, if you're drinking bottled water out of plastic bottles, um, that's another added source of microplastics as well. And so, um, microplastics themselves are... Um, it, it, there's a growing body of evidence in terms of what they're doing to human health, and we can talk about that.

   15. CWChris Williamson3:07

       Mm-hmm.

   16. RPDr Rhonda Patrick3:07

       But there's also chemicals that are associated with them, right?

   17. CWChris Williamson3:10

       How, like, just how prevalent are these things? Like, how difficult is it to avoid microplastics?

   18. RPDr Rhonda Patrick3:16

       It's impossible to avoid. I mean, the fact that it's in our water source is kind of indicative of that. Um, unfortunately, it's not just in our water, but it's in our soil. So plants are taking that up. Um, it's, it's in sludge-

   19. CWChris Williamson3:33

       How's it getting into the soil?

   20. RPDr Rhonda Patrick3:34

       ... um, because it's, it's- it's essentially, you know, runoff from, you know, rain and stuff. It's in... Microplastics and- and plastic chemicals are everywhere, so they- they're in the air. And so when rain, you know-

   21. CWChris Williamson3:48

       So they're so small that they can go up with precipitation?

   22. RPDr Rhonda Patrick3:51

       They're, they're in the air, because, um, the maj- the, the main source from the air is actually our clothing, so our clothing polyester, nylon, like the stuff that I'm wearing, for sure. I'm not wearing 100% cotton. Uh, when you wash it, it gets, you know, into the oceans. When you dry your clothes, the dryer is, you know-

   23. CWChris Williamson4:10

       Killing me.

   24. RPDr Rhonda Patrick4:10

       ... it's putting microplastics-

   25. CWChris Williamson4:12

       The- the dryer's atomizing your microplastics and pushing them into the atmosphere.

   26. RPDr Rhonda Patrick4:14

       Into the air. And tires are a big source. So tires aren't 100% made of rubber. They're rubber and a bunch of plastic, you know, stuff. And so cars on the road, shoes on our, you know, the- the rubber shoe, um, soles on our shoes, all that stuff has plastic and all that stuff is getting into the air. So the major source of microplastics are oral ingestion, which we talked about, and then inhalation. That's how they're getting into our bodies. So when it rains, that stuff, you know, it, the- the rain brings the microplastics into our runoff, right?

   27. CWChris Williamson4:47

       Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

   28. RPDr Rhonda Patrick4:47

       And that then gets into the soil, it gets into our, our sludge. You know, this is like fertilizer that's used, so it's- it's pretty much ubiquitous. It's everywhere. You're- you're not going to avoid it. Not to mention, I mean, I guess even if you were to try and not consume any condiments or foods or anything like that made out of plastic, you're gonna do a huge service. You're gonna reduce, greatly reduce the amount of microplastics you're consuming. Let's say you have air filters, you're trying to filter the air, but you're not going to filter it everywhere you go, right?

   29. CWChris Williamson5:18

       Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

   30. RPDr Rhonda Patrick5:18

       You're in your car, you're walking around on the street, especially if you live in a metropolitan urban area. It's very, very difficult to eliminate microplastics.
2. 5:27 – 10:31

   What Levels of Microplastics Are We Exposed To?

   1. CWChris Williamson5:27

      the sort of levels that we get, uh, exposed to? How much does that get down into being absorbed? Because the earth's a big place. It feels to me like the atmosphere has got loads of room in it. I don't know how much of the air that we get exposed to, even in Downtown New York, is going to be filled with microplastics. I wouldn't... I'm gonna guess that there's, on the triage list of stuff to worry about, there's probably other stuff up there, carbon monoxide, high levels of carbon dioxide, stuff like that that might be a problem. Uh, but yeah, like, in terms of how we get exposed to them, what are the sort of levels that we get exposed to? What do we absorb?

   2. RPDr Rhonda Patrick5:59

      It- so it does depend on, of course, your lifestyle, so it depends on what you're eating-... you know, what you're consuming, where you live, how polluted it is, right? Like, that's, that's a, that's a, obviously, if you have air filters in your home, which is a big one. If your dryer... You don't want your dryer to ventilate in- inside of your home-

   3. CWChris Williamson6:17

      Mm-hmm.

   4. RPDr Rhonda Patrick6:17

      ... that would be, like, a huge source of microplastics that are concentrated inside your house.

   5. CWChris Williamson6:21

      Mm-hmm.

   6. RPDr Rhonda Patrick6:22

      So you want it to ventilate, of course, outside, of course, but then that contributes to the microplastics in the environment, right, which ultimately makes its way back into our food and our-

   7. CWChris Williamson6:31

      Mm-hmm.

   8. RPDr Rhonda Patrick6:31

      ... um, you know, e- the air we breathe outside. But it, you know... There's a lot of studies trying to, to quantify how much microplastics that we are taking in daily, and there's been a variety of studies and s- and some of them have said, "Well, there's a credit card of plastic a day that we consume." Um, and that was a very, I would say, sensational headline that was in, was published in a peer-reviewed study. But it turns out, when you're trying to really quantify the gram weight of the microplastics is very challenging, because they vary in size. I mentioned five micrometers to, like, 100 nanometer in size.

   9. CWChris Williamson7:06

      Mm-hmm.

   10. RPDr Rhonda Patrick7:06

       And so it depends on what your, what your source of microplastics are when you're trying to quantify that. And so, a lot of studies that have looked at some of these, you know, h- h- in gram weight, how much are we consuming, used microplastics that are found in the oceans. So, in the oceans, a lot of that's coming from our clothing runoff, from our, from our, um, washer washing our clothes. And, um, it's not necessarily the same size particles that we're consuming if we're drinking water-

   11. CWChris Williamson7:32

       Mm-hmm.

   12. RPDr Rhonda Patrick7:32

       ... from a tap or we're eating, you know, or we're, or we're drinking water out of a bottle, you know, bottled water with, made of plastic. So it's not really a credit card of plastic that, that really isn't, I would say, accurate. Again, it comes down to, you know, it could be thousands of particles a day. Absorbing-wise, there have been studies in animals, okay, not humans, that show that animals absorb up to 2.5% of those particles. There are a variety of factors that actually can help you blunt that absorption. So, microplastics, um, really the, the m- the major one is size. So as you get smaller in size, like nanoplastics-

   13. CWChris Williamson8:13

       Mm-hmm.

   14. RPDr Rhonda Patrick8:13

       ... those can be more readily absorbed through your, um, intestinal cells. Because of the size, it's really easy for them to kind of pass the-

   15. CWChris Williamson8:21

       Yep.

   16. RPDr Rhonda Patrick8:21

       ... the membrane of your cell.

   17. CWChris Williamson8:22

       I'm gonna guess that if you've got a leaky gut of some kind or you've got a more permeable gut wall, is that a risk factor for this?

   18. RPDr Rhonda Patrick8:28

       It is, yeah. Um, presumably. I mean-

   19. CWChris Williamson8:31

       Yeah.

   20. RPDr Rhonda Patrick8:31

       ... there's not a ton of evidence on that-

   21. CWChris Williamson8:32

       It makes sense.

   22. RPDr Rhonda Patrick8:32

       ... but it makes sense. It, it, you know, the, the question is, you know, I mentioned heat breaking down the microplastics. Well, heat can break them down into nanoplastic size. So you don't want to microwave any food in plastic. You don't want to cook with any plastic utensils. And you don't want to drink out of something that's going to have a hot beverage poured into it, because that's going to rapidly, uh, you know, accelerate the breakdown into smaller particles. So ex- for example, a lot of to-go coffee cups are lined with, with plastic to prevent the leaching of the beverage into the, the cup, the paper cup. And so when you pour hot water into that, you can br- rapidly break down those, you know, plastics into small size as well as chemicals.

   23. CWChris Williamson9:17

       So you think maybe up to 2.5% of what we consume per day, we might absorb?

   24. RPDr Rhonda Patrick9:22

       Well, that's from animal studies, yes, so who kno-

   25. CWChris Williamson9:24

       Mm-hmm.

   26. RPDr Rhonda Patrick9:24

       ... who knows? Something like in that range.

   27. CWChris Williamson9:26

       Mm-hmm.

   28. RPDr Rhonda Patrick9:26

       Um, but the other thing that's really interesting that actually can affect the, the, the way you absorb these microplastics is, believe it or not, dietary fiber. Um, because... So there's two types of fiber. There's fermentable fiber. You know, this is what the bacteria in the distal part of your gut, s- wh- this is the colon, um, they're fermenting into a bunch of short-chain fatty acids to regulate your immune system and do all sorts of beneficial things for your gut. Then there's also non-fermentable fiber. This just moves stuff through your intestines, right? Well, the fermentable fiber, which is found in fruits and vegetables, that, um, is fermented into, like, this viscous gel that encapsulates microplastics and nanoplastics an- and stops them from being absorbed. The non-fermentable fiber, just, like, the stuff that moves, you know, foods through your, through your intestines, also just moves the microplastics as well. So you're gonna be excreting it through feces more rapidly.

   29. CWChris Williamson10:20

       Mm-hmm.

   30. RPDr Rhonda Patrick10:20

       So those two, um, those are two ways that fiber actually is beneficial for im- basically inhibiting the absorption of microplastics and nanoplastics.

3. 10:31 – 14:39

   Where Do Plastics Go in the Body?

   1. CWChris Williamson10:31

      Where do plastics go in the body? Is there... Do they congeal in certain places?

   2. RPDr Rhonda Patrick10:37

      Uh, yeah. So there's been, again, there's, this is, like, an emerging field. There's a lot more evidence on the chemicals associated with plastics, which we can talk about. But, um, there's been a variety of studies, actually, a lot of them c- coming out, um, in 2024, last year, some new ones coming out this year, showing that microplastics seem to accumulate in the brain 10 to 20 times more than other organs. And this was a study out of San Paolo, Brazil where there's, um, moderate air pollution. I mean, it's not like Mexico City, but it, you know, there is, there's a significant amount of air pollution there. And I mention air pollution because you would think, "Well, why are microplastics accumulating 10 to 20 times more rapidly in the brain than other organs?" They've been found in the heart. They've been found in the liver, in the kidneys, in the lungs, of course, you're breathing it in, um, in the, in the testes, reproductive organs, everywhere, placenta. But why are they accumulating so, you know, heavily in the brain? And it's not really known, it hasn't really been investigated, but I think it has to do with the fact that we're breathing in these particles in addition to consuming them orally from our foods and beverages and things like that. Because I mentioned microplastics are in the air, right? They're in the air. We are breathing them in. They'd get into our lungs. But... So the blood-brain barrier is supposed to protect chemicals from getting into the brain, and you would think, "Well, if anything-"

   3. CWChris Williamson12:04

      Do your job.

   4. RPDr Rhonda Patrick12:05

      Yeah. You'd think it'd be, like, less microplastics in the brain than in the lungs, right?... um, and also particle size plays a role. So again, particle size, if you have a nanoplastic, it can more readily tran- transverse across the blood-brain barrier 'cause it's smaller in size, similar to what's happening in the gut. But when you breathe in something, it's a direct route to the brain, so it qu- it bypasses the blood-brain barrier, and, and y- this is because your olfactory neurons, when you, when you smell something, there's a direct connection to the central nervous system. And this is why a lot of drugs that are administered intranasally are done so, because they are trying to bypass the blood-brain barrier. So, I think what's happening is you're getting a combination of both oral consumption and you're getting the nanoplastics, you know, in circulation. Because once the- these things get into circulation, there's really no point of- there's- it's kind of beyond the point of return, right? They're going to organs-

   5. CWChris Williamson12:58

      Mm-hmm.

   6. RPDr Rhonda Patrick12:58

      ... and they're accumulating there. Like, I don't know how they're gonna get out of the organs once they're there. You know, this isn't something that we're excreting unless it's at the level of the intestines when we're eating it, consuming it. Then, like I mentioned, if the fiber is there, i- h- you- you're excreting it. But once it gets into circulation, it's going to organs. So, um, I think the combination of, you know, the, the breathing it in and eating it is why you're getting it in the brain 10 to 20 times more. And here's why that's a problem. Because, um, in that same study, um, they looked postmortem at people that had dementia, like Alzheimer's disease, and those individuals that had dementia and Alzheimer's disease had 10 times more microplastics in their brains than people that did not have dementia and Alzheimer's disease.

   7. CWChris Williamson13:43

      Mm-hmm.

   8. RPDr Rhonda Patrick13:43

      10 times more. So of course, this is a correlation. You can't necessarily say this is causing it, right?

   9. CWChris Williamson13:50

      Mm-hmm.

   10. RPDr Rhonda Patrick13:50

       Microplastics are causing, um, Alzheimer's disease. But there are animal studies that have shown that microplastics in the brain can cause inflammation, chronic inflammation, and we do know that plays a big role in brain aging, dementia, and Alzheimer's disease.

   11. CWChris Williamson14:06

       I wonder if you would be able to run a study where you had people who, for one reason or another, were breathing in cleaner air compared... but wa- still eating the same sort of diet compared with people eating the same sort of diet but breathing in less clean air. So, people that maybe lived out in, in the countryside but were still eating food that was wrapped in plastic. So, you have that, which is the systemic through-the-mouth one, but then you also have the sniffing a line of plastic from your daily breathing equivalent that's coming from the people that live in cosmopolitan, metropolitan cities, something like that. That'd be really interesting to try and, to try and split that out. I guess, uh, well, you mentioned

4. 14:39 – 24:14

   Different Types of Plastics

   1. CWChris Williamson14:39

      before the, the sort of types of plastics that we're talking about. I've heard about... What have I heard about? BPAs, heard about those. What else?

   2. RPDr Rhonda Patrick14:47

      Uh-

   3. CWChris Williamson14:47

      Are we worried about BPAs anymore or is that, like-

   4. RPDr Rhonda Patrick14:49

      Yes, yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson14:50

      ... okay, okay.

   6. RPDr Rhonda Patrick14:51

      Okay, so, so the bisphenol A is a chemical that is put into pla- plastic. Um, it's, you know, it's a chemical that's, that's... h- it helps with durability, robustness, um, uh, flexibility, right? So, those chemicals would be bisphenol A, BPA. Um, phthalates are another one. Then there's BPS, which is the replacement for BPA. So, you'll often hear BPA-free, and it's-

   7. CWChris Williamson15:16

      It's just got BPF or BPS in instead.

   8. RPDr Rhonda Patrick15:17

      It's got BPS.

   9. CWChris Williamson15:18

      It's the Delta-8 equivalent of getting around the weed law. It's like, "Oh, this isn't, this isn't cannabis. This is Delta-8." You go, "Well, I mean, functionally it does the same thing, but you've just changed some molecule that means that legally it's not an issue."

   10. RPDr Rhonda Patrick15:30

       Exactly. It's, it's essentially a good marketing strategy because people... I know, I have many friends that thought BPA-free was like, "Oh, this is healthy," but you have to realize, no, they're still plastic. Like, you can put hot water into a BP- BPA-free mug that's- has plastic in it and you're still gonna get microplastics and you're still gonna have the other chemicals like BPS. So, these chemicals are called endocrine disrupting chemicals because they disrupt, disrupt the endocrine system. And so BPA, BPS, um, you know, these are, these are chemicals that are often referred to as xenoestrogens because they mimic estrogen in the body and they bind to estrogen receptors. They bind to androgen receptors. And they can block the activity of them or they can enhance the activity depending on the dose of the chemical. And so, that has a, a lot of effects on hormones, you know? I mean, uh, so there's, there have been a variety of studies looking at how BPA, BPS, um, to a- I mean, there's, there's fewer studies on BPS 'cause it's newer, but it seems as though it's doing something very similar to BPA.

   11. CWChris Williamson16:42

       What about BHT? I've heard about that.

   12. RPDr Rhonda Patrick16:44

       Um, I don't know as much about BHT.

   13. CWChris Williamson16:47

       I think this was the thing that Vani Hari popped Kellogg's for having on the inner lining of their America cereal bags, that they didn't have this particular BHT in the Canadian version, uh, the same they didn't have the red 40, they didn't have the blue 3, they didn't have the yellow 4, and they didn't have this particular type of plastic additive that was on the inside. Uh, helps with preservation of the food, makes it last longer. There's something else, maybe it's cheaper. I'm not too sure. Um, so what- who are the big culprits? What are the big ones?

   14. RPDr Rhonda Patrick17:26

       BPA is one of the biggest ones. Um, BPS is now, you know, coming along because there's a lot of companies that are manufacturing and marketing BPA-free. Um, phthalates are a big one. Those are also found in a lot of, like, personal hygiene products and cosmetics, shampoos, deodorants, creams, everything, like anything personal hygiene. And, um, and then there's, there's also the forever chemicals, PFAS. Those are also found in a variety of, of, um, things that are water-resistant, oil-repellent, you know, anything like that.

   15. CWChris Williamson17:58

       Mm-hmm.

   16. RPDr Rhonda Patrick17:59

       Um, well, so the, the, the, these chemicals... So, I mentioned, I mentioned hormones. You know, they're disrupting testosterone. So, um, there's been a variety of studies looking at, for example-... urinary BPA exposure and testosterone levels. And, uh, you know, there's an association with higher urinary BPA exposure, higher urinary BPA, you know, excretion and lower testosterone. Again, because these things are affecting, you know, ho- they're affecting hormones through feedback loops because they're binding to these estrogen receptors, these androgen receptors, and this is something that microplastics themselves are, you know, leaching in, and so if you have microplastics accumulating in your testes, for example, I mean, there was a study, it was a small study, it was done that found 100% of the s- of people, and they also tested dogs, um, 100% of both people and dogs had microplastics in their semen. Like, not a single sample that didn't have microplastics in semen. And it was also, this was also associated with, um, disrupted morphology, so the structure of sperm and also motility-

   17. CWChris Williamson19:09

       Mm-hmm.

   18. RPDr Rhonda Patrick19:09

       ... so the ability to move and swim, right?

   19. CWChris Williamson19:12

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   20. RPDr Rhonda Patrick19:12

       So this stuff is, sort of, fundamental, right? It's affecting our, like, our reproduction. It's, it's, it's kind of ... and it's everywhere, it's ubiquitous. So, um, it's, it's, it's not something to ignore. You know, there's obviously a lot of other lifestyle factors that are important being, you know, maintaining a healthy weight and exercise and all that, but on, I, I do think this is a growing issue. It's affecting hormones. Um, BPA is also affecting the brain. So, a lot of studies on brain development, but also, like, studies looking at, you know, just correlations between high BPA levels in adults. Um, neurodevelopment is a big one because developing, you know, fetuses like, like, like m- males that are develop- developing, boys that are developing, it's affecting their neurodevelopment. So women that have higher urinary BPA levels are six times more likely to have a child diagnosed with autism, and also it's affecting the sexual development of boys. So ...

   21. CWChris Williamson20:15

       The AGD is getting a- impacted, right?

   22. RPDr Rhonda Patrick20:18

       Um, there's ... Yes, exactly. So, um, it's both the angio- the a- ano-genital distance, so that would be the distance between the anus and, um, and the, the penis, right?

   23. CWChris Williamson20:29

       Glad that you said it.

   24. RPDr Rhonda Patrick20:30

       And i- so that's shorter, right? It's, it's sh- the- these plastic chemicals like phthalates, in particular, is a big one, also BPAs affecting the a- a- you know, the ano-genital distance, but it's also affecting f- phthalates, in particular, are affecting, um ... Undescended testicles is a big one. I mean, it's, it's really common now if you talk to, like, parents-

   25. CWChris Williamson20:50

       Mm-hmm.

   26. RPDr Rhonda Patrick20:50

       ... like, how common it is to have a boy with an undescended testicle, and also hypospadia. So that's, that is the, um, in boys it's the urethra slit where urine comes out of, it's, like, further back on the, on the penis, and so it's basically you have ... Some, some boys have to sit-

   27. CWChris Williamson21:06

       They're warping the entire physiology.

   28. RPDr Rhonda Patrick21:08

       Yeah. So u- your stream isn't normal, right? You might have to sit down to, to urinate because the, the slit is, like, further back on the, on the, on the penis. This is a big thing that phthalates are af- it's affecting sexual development because these hormones are really important. They're signaling during-

   29. CWChris Williamson21:25

       Right.

   30. RPDr Rhonda Patrick21:25

       ... development how organs-
5. 24:14 – 28:10

   Sex Differences in Susceptibility

   1. CWChris Williamson24:14

      between how men and how women are susceptible to plastics? Are certain types of plastics more? Are they making different kinds of impacts on, obviously, women can be pregnant, so I guess n- developing children in the womb, that's one thing. But yeah, what's the sex difference story?

   2. RPDr Rhonda Patrick24:29

      It does, it does seem like males tend to be more susceptible.

   3. CWChris Williamson24:34

      God damn it.

   4. RPDr Rhonda Patrick24:35

      (laughs) Well-

   5. CWChris Williamson24:36

      I knew it.

   6. RPDr Rhonda Patrick24:36

      (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson24:37

      I knew it.

   8. RPDr Rhonda Patrick24:37

      You know, male, males in general, like, like during development, it's a, like, they seem to be more vulnerable to a lot of different environmental stresses, including, you know, like acetaminophen, and there's all kinds of studies where you'll find, oh, this is happening in a male, you know, fetus, like a, a, a male that's developing, not, not the female.

   9. CWChris Williamson24:59

      Female privilege. Okay.

   10. RPDr Rhonda Patrick25:00

       Uh-

   11. CWChris Williamson25:00

       Go on.

   12. RPDr Rhonda Patrick25:00

       ... but, but yeah, again, we mentioned all these reproductive effects in, in men-

   13. CWChris Williamson25:04

       Hmm.

   14. RPDr Rhonda Patrick25:04

       ... right? Um, it's, it's, and also autism affects, I mean, men is, like, twice, men are twice as likely, or boys are twice as likely to be diagnosed with autism than, than girls. Um-

   15. CWChris Williamson25:14

       So 12 times more likely if you've got a ton of microplastics in you?

   16. RPDr Rhonda Patrick25:18

       I don't know that. Yeah, I'm not sure about that.

   17. CWChris Williamson25:20

       Six times then.

   18. RPDr Rhonda Patrick25:20

       But, but yeah, I mean, yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson25:21

       I c- I also don't do math very well, but anyway, um, yeah, it is, it's, I mean, what is it, what's the saying? "Males are nature's playthings." That there's just more male variability, there's more male variability in terms of IQ, in terms of height, in terms of aut- in all of these different things, and, um, every fetus starts off as female as well, right?

   20. RPDr Rhonda Patrick25:41

       Um, I think there's some kind of y- there's some kind of sex, there's s- I mean, first of all, uh, the sex is determined by the male side, so the sperm, right? Um, and I'm not exactly sure that I would say it starts off as female-

   21. CWChris Williamson25:55

       Starts off-

   22. RPDr Rhonda Patrick25:55

       ... but, like, it depends on what you're defining.

   23. CWChris Williamson25:56

       Was that not, is this not the reason why men have got nipples? That you need to have all of the, you need to have all of the individual bit, like, this is where we need to go. I'm pretty sure, someone ChatGPT it, someone ChatGPT it and tell me whether or not I'm right. I feel like I might be right here. Um, but okay, sex differences, how does it impact men and women differently?

   24. RPDr Rhonda Patrick26:14

       And, and it, it also goes with, like, you know, a lot of these plastic chemicals, like BPA, are also affecting, um, ADHD, not just autism. And again, it seems like boys are more susceptible to that. But these plastic chemicals do affect women as well. Uh, you know, it's also something that's affecting fertility, it's affecting egg, like, so there's been studies on in-v- um, in vitro fertilization and women that have high levels of BPA, they have, like, 50% less viable eggs, so it's not like these plastic chemicals aren't affecting women as well.

   25. CWChris Williamson26:47

       Whoa.

   26. RPDr Rhonda Patrick26:47

       Um, and cognition in general, I mean, it's affecting both, both sexes, right? It's not-

   27. CWChris Williamson26:51

       Mm-hmm.

   28. RPDr Rhonda Patrick26:51

       ... just men. But it seems as though, like, sexual development-

   29. CWChris Williamson26:55

       Mm-hmm.

   30. RPDr Rhonda Patrick26:55

       ... really, it seems to be targeting males, especially the phthalates.
6. 28:10 – 38:30

   Most Common Places We’re Exposed to Microplastics

   1. CWChris Williamson28:10

      g- actually, before we get into that, you, you've sort of touched on them a few times, but just do a rundown for me of the most common places that people are getting exposed to the highest levels of microplastics.

   2. RPDr Rhonda Patrick28:20

      Yeah. So the, the most, I would say, common places, one is drinking out of bottled water, like, bottled plastic bottles, right? Like, a lot of people drink out of plastic bottles. Um, that would be a big source. Tap water that's unfiltered, so tap water, again, also has microplastics. Unfortunately, our oceans are contaminated, so microplastics are also found in a lot of fish, and particularly, they accumulate in the digestive tract of fish, so if you're eating shellfish or clams or oysters or anything where you're eating the whole digestive tract, or a sardine whole, whole sardine, then you're gonna be getting microplastics. Heat is a big, big one, okay? The, I would say that is one of the main, you know, culprits when you're combining that with plastic. So, a lot of your to-go coffees that you're drinking from-

   3. CWChris Williamson29:14

      Starbucks, whatever.

   4. RPDr Rhonda Patrick29:15

      ... Starbucks-

   5. CWChris Williamson29:15

      Yep.

   6. RPDr Rhonda Patrick29:15

      ... anything, like, that is going, that is a, a huge one because you're, you're, you know, there's been studies looking at BPA leaching into liquid when it's, when heat, like, boiling water's applied, it increases, increases the leaching by 55 times, which is huge. It also increases microplastic, you know, breakdown, right? 'Cause you're breaking down the plastic itself.

   7. CWChris Williamson29:36

      So, not only are you getting more, you're making the plastic smaller, which allows it to be permeating through the gut more effectively.

   8. RPDr Rhonda Patrick29:43

      Exactly. Exactly. I can't tell you how many, like, to-go coffees I've had in my life and, you know, another big source now, this is, like, new coming out, I mean, there's c- there's been a couple of studies that have come out on this, is tea bags.

   9. CWChris Williamson29:57

      Okay.

   10. RPDr Rhonda Patrick29:58

       Because you're adding hot water to tea, and the tea bags themselves are made of either, um, polypropylene, they're made of nylon, or they're made of, interestingly, cellulose, which you would think wouldn't have microplastics, but I think they're, they must be mixed in, there's, there must be a mixture of stuff in there. And there's, this new study came out, you know, really just a couple of months ago showing that you can get anywhere between millions to billions of microplastic particles per milliliter-... I mean, per milliliter.

   11. CWChris Williamson30:30

       How, how many- how much is that compared with the normal sort of con- that's a, that's a large dose?

   12. RPDr Rhonda Patrick30:34

       It's a lot.

   13. CWChris Williamson30:35

       Okay. Okay.

   14. RPDr Rhonda Patrick30:35

       (laughs) It's a lot. What I'm getting at is, you know, I- you- there's not th- I, I think what's happening is the, the, the heat is breaking the plastic down.

   15. CWChris Williamson30:46

       Mm-hmm.

   16. RPDr Rhonda Patrick30:46

       These tea bags are made of plastic.

   17. CWChris Williamson30:47

       Mm-hmm.

   18. RPDr Rhonda Patrick30:47

       And so, um, you know, consuming these tea bags, uh, again, when you're getting to-go tea, it's like I, I now, I'm like, all I can think about is, like, I'm consuming a plastic tea.

   19. CWChris Williamson30:58

       Yeah, yeah.

   20. RPDr Rhonda Patrick30:59

       But you have to remember there's a lot of studies, at least with green tea, showing that green tea has huge benefits for cognition. It, it delays dementia.

   21. CWChris Williamson31:07

       It might even offset the microplastics you've had to consume, con-

   22. RPDr Rhonda Patrick31:09

       Uh, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, clearly people are drinking tea out of probably tea bags, so it's not like-

   23. CWChris Williamson31:13

       Yeah.

   24. RPDr Rhonda Patrick31:14

       ... at least with green tea it seems like there's some-

   25. CWChris Williamson31:16

       Net positive.

   26. RPDr Rhonda Patrick31:16

       ... there's some benefits, right.

   27. CWChris Williamson31:17

       Yeah.

   28. RPDr Rhonda Patrick31:17

       But, um, so, so those are some of the major sources. Um, and then there's also, it's in our salt, um, and then air, right? So, like, that, that's another one if you're living in a polluted place, if you're, again, you know-

   29. CWChris Williamson31:30

       Internally venting your dryer.

   30. RPDr Rhonda Patrick31:32

       ... dryer, ventilation in your house.
7. 38:30 – 42:24

   Are We Absorbing Microplastics From Our Clothes?

   1. RPDr Rhonda Patrick38:30

      you know-

   2. CWChris Williamson38:30

      What about, final, final thing, I guess, on sources. You mentioned clothing going through the dryer. I don't know what this T-shirt's made of. It looks a little bit shiny. Maybe there's some polyester in it. I know that the brand of pants that I tried, I shit you not, 15 different types of pants, uh, until I settled on these are bamboo cotton. But I'm like, is that... What about the li- what about the elastane liner around the top? What about the way that this is stitched acro- there's probably an dermal absorption in an area that I really don't want that, to be too much of it. How much are we getting leached in from the th- the clothes that we wear?

   3. RPDr Rhonda Patrick39:05

      Yeah, that's a great question. So again, um, it's not... (sighs) The BPA and those chemicals, most of the time you might have, like, forever chemicals in, in some of that as well, right? Like, especially if it's, like, uh, not, maybe not the underwear, but like, like a coat or something that's w- anything that's waterproof or oil-

   4. CWChris Williamson39:21

      Vortexy type thing.

   5. RPDr Rhonda Patrick39:23

      Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson39:23

      But I guess, uh, you, I suppose the one advantage of outerwear being higher in forever chemicals is that by virtue of it being outerwear, there's usually some layers in between you and it.

   7. RPDr Rhonda Patrick39:33

      Right, right. Um, when it comes to, you know, undergarments or even just, like, our shirts and clothing, it, the dermal absorption is not the major source from c- from cloth- from clothing. It's not the major way that, like, BPA and these chemicals are getting into our system.

   8. CWChris Williamson39:48

      Mm.

   9. RPDr Rhonda Patrick39:48

      Um, with that said, if you're sweating, if you're working out, if there's a lot of friction, like sweat, heat, that opens pores, right? And so you can increase-

   10. CWChris Williamson40:00

       Hmm. Interesting.

   11. RPDr Rhonda Patrick40:00

       ... some absorption, somewhat. There's no real data on, this is just me, like, thinking about mechanism, right?

   12. CWChris Williamson40:04

       Uh-huh. But I guess, as well, you know, one of the weird quirks of gym kit, especially the sort of gym kit where people sweat, is that it's polyester sort of fitted T-shirts, leggings, things like that, that people are then moving friction, which is gonna liberate something. You're sweating, that's heat. There's water. Pores are open. Larger aperture for whatever it is to get in.

   13. RPDr Rhonda Patrick40:31

       Exactly. So I mean, I still, like-

   14. CWChris Williamson40:34

       We're not panicking, not yet.

   15. RPDr Rhonda Patrick40:35

       I... Yeah, you can go... You have to choose your battles, right? You have to choose your battles. I do think that, yeah, maybe some people can wear cotton athletic wear. There's not a ton of it out there. Like, a hu- it has to be 100% natural fiber, so you mentioned bam- bamboo. That would be a natural fiber. Cotton, hemp.

   16. CWChris Williamson40:51

       Imagine bedding as well, stuff like that.

   17. RPDr Rhonda Patrick40:53

       Bedding as well, exactly, if you're, like, sweating in your bed, and also just, like, your breathing. Like, your face is right there every night. I mean, so if you can get, like, 100%. Bamboo sheets are, like, really soft as well.

   18. CWChris Williamson41:03

       Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

   19. RPDr Rhonda Patrick41:03

       So I mean, that would be... I mean, again, you can start to go down the rabbit hole. Believe me, I've been there.

   20. CWChris Williamson41:10

       Yeah.

   21. RPDr Rhonda Patrick41:10

       But I think for most, 99% of the people, like, focusing on like, the major culprits will keep you sane.

   22. CWChris Williamson41:17

       Before we continue, sleep isn't just about how long you rest, but how well your body stays in its optimal temperature range throughout the night, and this is where Eight Sleep comes in. Just add their brand new Pod 4 Ultra to your mattress like a fitted sheet, and it automatically cools down or warms up each side of your bed up to 20 degrees. It's got integrated sensors that track your sleep time, sleep phases, your HRV, your snoring, and your heart rate with 99% accuracy, and it'll even start cooling or heating your bed for you an hour before bedtime. This is why Eight Sleep has been clinically proven to increase total sleep by up to one hour every night. And best of all, they've got a 30-night sleep trial, so you can buy it and sleep on it for a full month. If you don't like it, they'll give you your money back, and they ship internationally. If you have any respect at all for Dr. Rhonda Patrick, uh, she uses one too, so don't just take the word of an idiot. Take the word of a doctor. Right now, you can get $350 off the Pod 4 Ultra by going to the link in the description below or heading to EightSleep.com/modernwisdom and using the code MODERNWISDOM at checkout. That's E-I-G-H-T Sleep.com/modernwisdom, and MODERNWISDOM at checkout.

8. 42:24 – 50:18

   Is it Possible to Have Plastic-Free Food?

   1. CWChris Williamson42:24

      The one elephant in the room when we're talking about this, which is, and obviously everybody, including me, is now thinking, "Right, okay, where are the places that I've got plastic in my life?" Well, I've switched all of my Tupperware out from plastic to glass. Uh, well, I use glass water bottles, or I use, like, an Aqua Tru reverse osmosis thing. That's good. That goes into a glass carafe, and I'm using, like, s- like, a YETI cooler, blah, blah, blah. But the food that we eat, even the best quality steaks-... they, unless you're going to the farmer's market and he's chopped it off the cow and put it in wax paper, it's wrapped in plastic.

   2. RPDr Rhonda Patrick42:56

      Right.

   3. CWChris Williamson42:57

      Like, I work with Piedmontese, they make amazing beef. The, my favorite beef in the world, it's the tastiest stuff, arrives to me wrapped in plastic. So, like, wha- have you got any idea when it comes to packaging, packaging of vegetables, you know, even the organic double washed spinach that's in one of those sort of big tray things with the plastic across the top and it's all around the sides, how much, how big of a deal is that?

   4. RPDr Rhonda Patrick43:20

      Um, it, yes, exactly. I've gone down that rabbit hole, so I'm glad you, you brought it up. Uh, you know, when it comes to, like, meats and stuff, I mean, e- exactly. Unless ... And even if you're, like, out hunting it, like, you're gonna ... You've got a lot of meat, you're gonna store it in your freezer and you're gonna vacuum seal it and it's (laughs) gonna be in a plastic-

   5. CWChris Williamson43:36

      Mm-hmm.

   6. RPDr Rhonda Patrick43:37

      ... vacuum sealed bag, right? Like it's not ... It's unavoidable. Um, the, the reality is, is that if you, if you can ... The, the more the plastic breaks down over time ... So time, oxygen, heat, these are all a factor in the breakdown of plastics to our foo- into our food, and also, um, e- the chemicals associated with them. So if you're, you know, just, i- i- if the plastic is only on your meat for a short period of time or it's in the freezer-

   7. CWChris Williamson44:06

      Mm-hmm.

   8. RPDr Rhonda Patrick44:06

      ... at least it's a little more stable.

   9. CWChris Williamson44:08

      As opposed to if you've got a bottle of Evian in Dubai that's been transported via truck two or three or four different journeys and it's been hot and it's been cool again, then it's been hot and then it's been cool again. Then finally it gets into a fridge and you go, "Ah, it's been in the fridge, it's cold."

   10. RPDr Rhonda Patrick44:22

       Exactly.

   11. CWChris Williamson44:22

       And you go-

   12. RPDr Rhonda Patrick44:22

       Exactly.

   13. CWChris Williamson44:23

       ... "Hmm, what about the rest of the supply chain?"

   14. RPDr Rhonda Patrick44:25

       Bingo. Exactly. So, I mean, this is the way I think about it. And, uh, you know, when it comes to, like, the vegetables and all that stuff, the sa- the same goes. I mean, like, I, when I get my vegetables, I wa- I wa- rinse them off, 'cause you do, you can rinse off some of the stuff that's not quite absorbed.

   15. CWChris Williamson44:40

       Mm-hmm.

   16. RPDr Rhonda Patrick44:41

       But, you know, don't, you don't wanna put it in a plastic bag and store it in your refrigerator if you can. Like, I just put, like, a paper towel down and put the vegetables on top of that.

   17. CWChris Williamson44:49

       Mm-hmm.

   18. RPDr Rhonda Patrick44:49

       If you're, if you're getting ... Like, I buy blueberries, they come in a plastic container. Like, what are you gonna do? You rinse off the blueberries. You, you kinda hope for the best. It's not like the blueberries have been in that plastic pr- container for years, right? Obviously, blueberries-

   19. CWChris Williamson45:00

       They can't have been in there for that long, or else they'd be dead.

   20. RPDr Rhonda Patrick45:02

       Right. So, so, so you have to have some peace of mind and realize, okay, we do live in a plastic world. At the end of the day, you know, it, it, it does come down to the breakdowns of this plastic. And so, you know, the things that you wanna avoid are, like you said, the bottled water, the heat touching the plastic. Um, you wanna get a reverse osmosis filter, so reverse osmosis, you mentioned Aqua Tru, that's a great countertop one.

   21. CWChris Williamson45:26

       Shout out Aqua Tru.

   22. RPDr Rhonda Patrick45:27

       Yeah, I've a lot of friends that use that, 'cause it's, uh, a countertop, you can just-

   23. CWChris Williamson45:30

       What do you use?

   24. RPDr Rhonda Patrick45:30

       Um, I'm actually in the process of getting an in-home, like-

   25. CWChris Williamson45:33

       Plumbed?

   26. RPDr Rhonda Patrick45:34

       ... full-

   27. CWChris Williamson45:34

       Yeah.

   28. RPDr Rhonda Patrick45:35

       ... system.

   29. CWChris Williamson45:35

       Cool. You're n- Are you using Greenfield for that?

   30. RPDr Rhonda Patrick45:37

       No.
9. 50:18 – 59:22

   Best Tactics for Avoiding Microplastics

   1. CWChris Williamson50:18

      I, I actually think before that, before we get into how you get them out of you, can you just do a run-through of best tactics for avoidance? Like, super simple, this is what we know. I know it's going to be imperfect, I know that everybody with health anxiety is just, their heart rate's, you know, 20% higher than it should be. What's the 80/20 on avoiding plastics in consumption?

   2. RPDr Rhonda Patrick50:40

      I do. I think there's imperfect avoidance, right? It's, you're not gonna avoid it 100%. But I think the, I would say, the top things to consider and try to implement in your life would be, one, get a high-quality reverse osmosis filter, whether it's countertop or whole-house system. That's first and foremost. Um, number two, avoid drinking as much as possible out of plastic bottles. Also, cans do c- are lined with, um-

   3. CWChris Williamson51:06

      Mm-hmm.

   4. RPDr Rhonda Patrick51:06

      ... plastic lining as well.

   5. CWChris Williamson51:07

      Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

   6. RPDr Rhonda Patrick51:08

      Um, so consider that as well. Um, number three, avoid heating plastic. So really, like, the to-go coffee mugs is a big one. Bring, bring your own, you know, mug, like this here.

   7. CWChris Williamson51:19

      Mm-hmm.

   8. RPDr Rhonda Patrick51:19

      Yeti. I, I bring Yetis to co- I bring them when I travel and I ask them to, "Can you put my latte in this mug?" And they do it.

   9. CWChris Williamson51:25

      I just had a, an idea that, so I've become addicted, um, keep where you are, but I've become addicted to Dutch Bros Coffee and I kind of need to tell the internet about it. Uh, it's phenomenal. I wonder if there is a way... I was watching them make it, 'cause when you go and go through the drive-through, you can actually see the process of them going through it. A lot of the time when they make an iced coffee, an iced latte, they're pouring it between almost what looks like a cocktail-ia's shaker, the steel thing, pouring it between that and pouring it between your cup. I haven't done this yet, but one of the things that I thought about, 'cause the cup is typically filled with the ice, then they pour the hot liquid over the ice, and that's what cools it. I was like, "Huh, if I said, rather than you pouring it from the steel thing into the plastic, could I just get you to do two steel things side by side, put the ice in that one, cool it down, and then pop it into the plastic thing for me?" Obviously, the gold standard would be to take your own cup, but if you were to say that you don't have that, I also have to assume that iced drinks are going to be better, even if you get a splash of hot hitting the cup that you don't, you can't get them to do some fancy cocktail trick with. It's gonna cool it down more quickly, so it's not gonna liberate for as long, for as, to as small.

   10. RPDr Rhonda Patrick52:37

       Exactly, and if you think about it, if you're getting an iced cup of fill-in-the-blank, you know, that's plastic, it, y- y- y- the, the beverage isn't in that cup for that long, right? So the breakdown, it's like it's not really happening.

   11. CWChris Williamson52:50

       As opposed to you waiting for 20 minutes for it to become a consumable temperature.

   12. RPDr Rhonda Patrick52:54

       Yeah, or as opposed to, like, bottled water. Like you said, it's like, how long has it been in there in the heat?

   13. CWChris Williamson52:59

       Where's it been?

   14. RPDr Rhonda Patrick52:59

       It's been in... How many trucks has it been on and warehouses has it, you know, gone through before it's been in that refrigerator that you think is cold? Um, so, you know, and I do wanna mention another thing with coffee, but I'll get back to the imperfect avoidance.

   15. CWChris Williamson53:11

       So we've got, uh, reverse osmosis, not drinking tap water. Second up is, uh, avoiding bottled water. Third one is avoiding heating plastic, which would include Tupperware, reheating meals, meal prep companies, stuff like that, I'm gonna guess.

   16. RPDr Rhonda Patrick53:26

       Yes, yeah, all that, because that's, you know, they're putting a lot of stuff in plastic, right? Um, and then I did mention, like, ca- like, canned soup is really bad because it's in a, it's in a can that's lined with BPA, and the soup goes in hot. It goes in hot.

   17. CWChris Williamson53:43

       Oh, when they fill it?

   18. RPDr Rhonda Patrick53:45

       Yeah. So there have been studies that have compared people that get canned soup to, like, soup made in glass.

   19. CWChris Williamson53:51

       Okay.

   20. RPDr Rhonda Patrick53:51

       And, um, it increases, like, BP, urinary BPA by 1,000%, which is insanely high.

   21. CWChris Williamson53:57

       Have you w- do you know what the inside of Tetra Paks are like? Are those sort of more carton things? Do you know what I mean by Tetra Pak?

   22. RPDr Rhonda Patrick54:03

       I don't know what's in it, but I'll tell you this, and this is what I was gonna get back to.

   23. CWChris Williamson54:06

       Probably fucking BPA.

   24. RPDr Rhonda Patrick54:07

       There's something called polylactic acid-

   25. CWChris Williamson54:09

       Okay.

   26. RPDr Rhonda Patrick54:09

       ... that you can line... I think you can line cans with it. I know you can line to-go coffee mugs. Like, some, I know Blue Bottle Coffee lines it with polylactic acid rather than, um, like, BPA plastic.

   27. CWChris Williamson54:22

       Mm-hmm.

   28. RPDr Rhonda Patrick54:23

       So polylactic acid, why not replace the plastic lining-

   29. CWChris Williamson54:27

       That's a, that's not, is that, that's not liberated in the same way, that's not, that wouldn't-

   30. RPDr Rhonda Patrick54:29

       Well-
10. 59:22 – 1:10:04

    Is it Possible to Test & Remove Microplastics?

    1. CWChris Williamson59:22

       Okay, so if we've got- that's how to avoid them, this is where they come from, how possible is it for our bodies to actually get rid of them? What are the ways that we can speed this up? Actually, first question, is it possible to test? Can I go and work out how m- how many microplastics are in my body?

    2. RPDr Rhonda Patrick59:37

       Um, that's a good question. So I've had people m- emailing me about tests they're developing for- for- for measuring microplastics in circulation. You have to remember, once it gets into circulation, like, that's when it's going to other organs, right? I haven't seen any validated tests on actual microplastics yet, but there are tests on the chemicals associated with them, so like BPA, phthalates, forever chemicals. Um, the test that I use is from Vibrant Wellness. They have a really-

    3. CWChris Williamson1:00:05

       I love them.

    4. RPDr Rhonda Patrick1:00:05

       Yeah, they have a really great, um, toxin panel test.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:00:09

       Total Tox.

    6. RPDr Rhonda Patrick1:00:10

       Yep, and so they do everything, like all those chemicals and others. They do, like, mycotoxins, they do heavy metals, and, uh, you know, I don't have any affiliation with them, but I think they're just- they've- they've got a great test.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:00:21

       It's the same one that my- that my doctor, uh, Gabrielle Alyn, it's the same one that her team suggested and it came back and everything was fucking red, so, uh, yeah. I can vouch for the fact that it's accurate.

    8. RPDr Rhonda Patrick1:00:32

       Right, so that would be, you know, the testing wise. Now, um, again with microplastics, I think we're gonna start to see a lot of tests come out now that this is-

    9. CWChris Williamson1:00:40

       Brian Johnson's trying to develop one. He was tweeting about it recently. I mean, he's tweeting about a lot of things at the moment, um, but yeah, he was tweeting about some microplastics tests.

    10. RPDr Rhonda Patrick1:00:49

        Interesting.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:00:50

        Hm.

    12. RPDr Rhonda Patrick1:00:50

        Yeah, there's- there's a variety of companies, and I'm sure Vibrant Wellness is probably gonna add that to their list, um, as well.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:00:57

        Okay, so that's how we find out. How can I get rid of them?

    14. RPDr Rhonda Patrick1:01:01

        Right.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:01:01

        I've got too many microplastics in my body, how do I get rid of them?

    16. RPDr Rhonda Patrick1:01:03

        Yeah, so microplastics, we kind of talked about a little bit getting rid of them, and that really the main source is excretion through feces, and that happens with dietary fiber. So if you are eating a lot of fruits and vegetables, that does increase the chances that microplastics-... are going to move their way out through feces more readily.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:01:22

        Is that only microplastics that you're consuming along with it, or is able to pull microplastics deep, sort of detoxify them from your body?

    18. RPDr Rhonda Patrick1:01:29

        I think it's, I think it's in general, to be honest, because if you think about, like, fiber, what does it do? It moves stuff through your body, it doesn't necessarily have to be something that you just ate, right? Like, it could be something that you had hours before. So if you're getting, like, fiber, daily fiber, right? Like, thinking about getting your total daily fiber, I think that's something that is important because it's moving the, it's moving it out of your body so you can't absorb it. Through both ways, like the, the ways of just moving it through but also in, you know, with the type of fiber that's found in things like, you know, berries and apples, so these are pectins, like inulin, all this, all this type of fermentable fiber, green bananas, resistant starch, like, that stuff makes viscous gel-like substance in your gut which encapsulates microplastics so that you're not absorbing them.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:02:16

        Mm.

    20. RPDr Rhonda Patrick1:02:16

        So really, I think it's just, like, m- more important to focus on the daily fiber intake-

    21. CWChris Williamson1:02:21

        Mm-hmm.

    22. RPDr Rhonda Patrick1:02:21

        ... versus, like-

    23. CWChris Williamson1:02:22

        Mm-hmm.

    24. RPDr Rhonda Patrick1:02:22

        ... with a meal.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:02:22

        So is that the, the biggest mover, daily fiber intake do you think?

    26. RPDr Rhonda Patrick1:02:26

        I do, and this is all animal data. Like, there's, this is all new, there's no real human data yet on, on that-

    27. CWChris Williamson1:02:32

        Mm-hmm.

    28. RPDr Rhonda Patrick1:02:32

        ... area in terms of, like, excreting it through feces and absorption, intestinal absorption. Um, but I do think, like, it's, it makes sense, like, why wouldn't it translate, right? So, um, that's something that I think's important. Oh, the other thing, this just came out, this is interesting, also animal data, so forever chemicals, I mentioned forever chemicals, those take two to five years to excrete, to get rid of. I say excrete, to detoxify, get out of your body-

    29. CWChris Williamson1:02:57

        Mm.

    30. RPDr Rhonda Patrick1:02:57

        ... they stay in your body forever. That's why they're called forever chemicals. Um, unlike bisphenol A, which is, uh, a has, it's in your ou- in your body for, like, up to four or five hours. You know, anywhere from two to five hours. It's, it's really kind of daily excretion, and it's excreted through urine. But there's studies showing that the, they're called, um, beta glucans, and they're in oats and they're in mushrooms, but the study used oats. The beta glucans, which is by the way a fermentable type of, uh, fiber, they were a- they actually caused excretion of the forever chemicals, PFAS, in animals, which is something that n- doesn't happen. So they increase the ex- um, excretion through, it's this whole mechanism that affects, like, your, your, your liver, your, your bile acid and liver and cholesterol and all this, like, fancy stuff that, you know, might be confusing to explain.
11. 1:10:04 – 1:15:54

    Advice to People Impacted By the LA Fires

    1. CWChris Williamson1:10:04

       You touched on something there. I don't know whether you've got any advice or whether you'd feel comfortable, but a lot of people will have been directly impacted by the fires in LA, or indirectly just by ... it's happened around them, they've been more stressed and they've been breathing in this air, which presumably is still probably going to be in the local ecology. Is there anything ... Uh, how worried do you think that people should be about what's been liberated into the air? And if you were someone that's been worried, is there a particular protocol or some things that you would consider over the next few weeks and months to try and just help yourself get back to a good place of health?

    2. RPDr Rhonda Patrick1:10:36

       I do. And, you know, I have, um, several friends that have been, you know, impacted by the, the LA fires and I've kind of talked to them about some of this stuff. So, um, first, I've, I've, you know ... Uh, avoiding going outside or wearing a mask if you're, like, there in the thick of it, right? When it's, like, really, really bad air quality. But, um, having a HEPA filter inside, one, um, and two, the sulforaphane. So I've, I've now told several friends that they should be taking, um, Avmacol. Again, I don't have any affiliation with them. They just ... There's multiple clinical studies using their formulation, very reliable and, um, so, you know, taking anywhere between two to four a day to in- in- increase the excretion of a- a lot of these harmful compounds that are in the air. Now, that's not gonna cause you ... Like, the microplastics that you're breathing in, you're not gonna ... Sulforaphane isn't going to help with that. It's gonna help with the chemical aspects of it. The microplastics themselves, like, 'cause the plastics are burning and lots of stuff, particulate matters in the air, that's where you get the HEPA filters. That's important, um, to help with the, the breathing in that air, right? So.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:11:43

       I hope that we haven't caused too much, um, health anxiety for people with that. I'm aware that there's a number of vectors. Everybody can get worried about how much is ... "Oh my God, I've got to ev- n- not even the food that I need to be worried about. It's what it's wrapped in." And I heard this story, a funny story from a friend that was telling me about, he goes to a farmer's market and he wants to get raw milk and the raw milk's in glass bottles and it's got a d- a cap on it. You know, it's ... There's n- at no point is there any plastic anywhere near it. And he asks the farmer about how they get the milk from the cows and they use an automatic pumping machine, which runs it through plastic pipes. He's like, "That's warm milk going through a plastic pipe." Even the most psychedelic, progressive farmer's market in the world where you think, "Yeah, you know, this is basically ... You might as well have sort of pumped the cow into a steel bucket and poured it into this." It's like, yeah, some plastic pipes were in between.

    4. RPDr Rhonda Patrick1:12:30

       I, I, I can add to that story that's, that's gonna freak you out even more. So-

    5. CWChris Williamson1:12:34

       Bring it on.

    6. RPDr Rhonda Patrick1:12:34

       ... so we-

    7. CWChris Williamson1:12:35

       No one's worried enough, so.

    8. RPDr Rhonda Patrick1:12:36

       (laughs) We're talking about forever chemicals, right? And how humans don't excrete them for, like, years. Well, it turns out these forever chemicals are because they're in our water source, right? Again, wastewater plants aren't treating for them, so they're concentrating in things like sludge that's used on a lot of non-organic farms, but the non-organic farms are a very close proximity to organic farms.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:12:58

       What's a non-organic farm?

    10. RPDr Rhonda Patrick1:13:00

        Well, I just mean they're not, not, not organic, right? They're, they're not-

    11. CWChris Williamson1:13:03

        Oh, right. Okay.

    12. RPDr Rhonda Patrick1:13:03

        So-

    13. CWChris Williamson1:13:04

        Okay, okay, okay.

    14. RPDr Rhonda Patrick1:13:04

        ... so organic farms are not technically supposed to use sludge-

    15. CWChris Williamson1:13:07

        Right.

    16. RPDr Rhonda Patrick1:13:08

        ... right? So which includes, like, wastewater as fertilizer.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:13:10

        It's not as if the wastewater and the sludge knows that this is the boundary of the edges.

    18. RPDr Rhonda Patrick1:13:13

        Exactly. It gets into the soil and it leaches here, right? And so, so it's, it's actually contaminated a lot of, like, organic farms as well. And, um, there was a consumer report study a couple of years ago that went and sampled,... a lot of dairy products off of shelves, like gras- gras milk, you know, the organic gras milk, and just a lot of different varieties of milk. Why were they targeting milk? Well, it turns out forever chemicals, um, cows do excrete them, unlike humans. Cows excrete them through their milk. So, when you are (laughs) eating yogurt or milk or cheese, butter, I mean, these are all things where you're like, you have to consider, "Are there forever chemicals in, in my dairy product?" Because this consumer report found that lots of products, including the organic ones, had much, much higher levels of PFAS-

    19. CWChris Williamson1:14:12

        Mm-hmm.

    20. RPDr Rhonda Patrick1:14:12

        ... than are considered safe.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:14:14

        Obviously, this is your sort of, w- one of your many new, uh, pet research obsessions. How big of a deal across the entire repertoire of things that people need to be worried about, how highly do you rank the plastics, microplastics, endocrine disruptors?

    22. RPDr Rhonda Patrick1:14:31

        I do, I do rank them highly. I think the highest would be, you know, exercising consistently, you know, five, five days a week, not being overweight, obese, trying to, trying to eat a more whole foods diet. But that includes, like, it's up there after, after those things, because I do think there's insidious damage that's happening. We are accumulating them in our organs. We're starting to now unpack that this is actually affecting human health, and there are a, a few high level things that we can do to minimize our exposure that we've discussed. Focusing on those few high level things, the f- the water filters, you know, trying to not heat the plastic, trying to, like, minimize the single-use plastics that you're using. It's not gonna be, you know, 100% but minimize it as much as you can. You're doing a lot if you can do that, right? I do think that, like, you don't want to become a manic person about it, because chronic stress is bad for you. (laughs) So, so that's like, you have to kind of like draw the line and live your life. Like, I've kind of done that myself, where it's like, "Okay, like I'm not, I'm n- it's, it's imperfect, but I'm gonna do what I can and I know that that's gonna have a, a good impact, especially if I'm exercising and I'm eating healthy and I'm trying to do all the other things that are, like, the most important, getting my micronutrients."

    23. CWChris Williamson1:15:49

        Mm-hmm.

    24. RPDr Rhonda Patrick1:15:49

        Like, like doing those things, you know, at the end of the day, it's gonna be okay.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:15:53

        Okay.

12. 1:15:54 – 1:25:02

    Impact of the GRAS System on American Food

    1. CWChris Williamson1:15:54

       You said you were doing some research into ultra-processed foods as well. I have been learning about this gras, G-R-A-S, loophole thing. Is this the pebble at the top of the avalanche that sort of wrecked the Amer- American food system? Is that why there's a big issue?

    2. RPDr Rhonda Patrick1:16:12

       Um, no. (laughs) Short answer.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:16:14

       Good.

    4. RPDr Rhonda Patrick1:16:15

       I know. It's, it, it can be confusing. So, so you're talking about Generally Recognized as Safe, GRAS. And that's... You, you mentioned loophole, but let's take a step back. Before the loophole, there was just GRAS. There was the Generally Recognized as Safe. And this has been around since, like, the early 1900s, and it's essentially thing- things can go into the food, our, our food supply, that are Generally Recognized as Safe. So, it was meant to be, you know, for things like vinegar or salt, right? Like, not these chemicals that we have to have a lot of testing and FDA has to look at all this testing. Well, um, Generally Recognized as Safe back then was something you did have to submit to the FDA for review, and then FDA would look over whatever data you gave them if you're a manufacturing company, and they'd say, "Okay, it looks like it's safe." The loophole, um, it came about, and I think it was, like, the late 1990s, like 1997, and that was like, that basically said, okay, you- manufacturers no longer have to submit anything to the FDA for a review. They can just review it internally and decide whether or not it's safe. So, it kind of gave... And there's a lot of controversy over this. There's a lot of, you know, you give a lot of freedom to manufacturers who obviously have a conflict of interest because they want to sell their products, and they can kind of decide whether or not something is Generally Recognized as Safe. Um, with respect to the, the ultra-processed foods in general, you know, there's processed foods and then there's ultra-processed foods, right? Like what, what, what's the difference? So processed foods typically, like, this is minimal processing. This is something like making oats, something where you want to increase the bioavailability of, bioavailability of nutrients, which, you know, oats increases the bioavailability of some of the minerals and stuff, um, or chopping and freezing fruits and vegetables, like frozen fruits and vegetables that you can buy in the freezer.

Episode duration: 2:13:36