The Truth About The Patriarchy: Men Don't Benefit Anymore - George TheTinMen

George TheTinMen is a content creator, pro-men’s advocate and social media influencer. Men's mental health is in the toilet. 80% of 18-24 year old suicides are men. 15% of men say they have 0 close friends to call on in an emergency. So why does it seem like the world doesn't care and just thinks that men are still the benefactors of a patriarchy they no longer feel a part of? Expect to learn why Drake's dick pic leak was such an important cultural moment, whether Billie Eilish is right that men don't receive criticism for their bodies, the reaction online to a new study saying that men need 2 guys' nights per week, what Are We Dating The Same Guy is, whether men have reproductive rights and much more... - 00:00 New Study About Guy Nights 06:00 What Do Women Think Guys Are Doing Together? 11:35 Explaining ‘Are We Dating the Same Guy?’ Facebook Groups 16:30 The Path to Becoming a Female Incel 20:19 Women Bragging About Abusing Men 29:09 The Advantage Women Have Over Men 33:13 Hollywood’s Damaging Portrayal of Women 37:40 The Strange Laws Around Female Sexual Assault 47:20 What Are We Misunderstanding About Domestic Violence? 55:10 Do Men Have Reproductive Rights? 1:01:54 Responding to Billie Eilish’s Comments About Men 1:07:34 Men Are Facing Higher Discrimination Than Women 1:16:38 Placing Female Victimhood on a Pedestal 1:20:00 What the Right is Telling Men 1:28:20 Sexual Assault in Male Prisons 1:32:46 The Disposability of Men 1:39:48 The Current State of Men’s Advocacy 1:48:07 Will There Be a Minister for Men? 1:53:04 Where to Find George - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Chris WilliamsonhostGeorge TheTinMenguest

Mar 21, 20241h 53mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

150 min read · 30,031 words

0:00 – 6:00
New Study About Guy Nights
1. CWChris Williamson
  What happened when Robin Dunbar's new study came out about men needing two guy nights per week in order to stay healthy?
2. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  I, I saw it mentioned a, a bunch of times on various social media channels, and it was basically saying that men need two guy nights a week just for, for their, for their health and their mental health. Um, obviously male suicide is a massive issue, especially in Western society, and one of the most sort of key factors in male suicide is male loneliness, male isolation. So he, he was looking into that and he found that two nights a week for guys is, uh, sort of the am- ample amount. And then, as social media normally does, it sort of kicks off, everyone goes crazy, you know, everyone's whining, making it about themselves, and everyone found the idea of two guy nights a week for men just too intolerable. And then they wanted to know how many, how many nights per woman, it's got to be seven at least, and all I want is time alone. And maybe it's great if they go so you don't have to spend time with them. And honestly, the comments on each of his posts were all the same, just a bunch of whiny narcissists making it about themselves and just totally ignoring the fact that male suicide is a massive issue, male loneliness is a key part of that. And um, I'm sure you've seen the comments for yourself, Kris.
3. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah, some of my favorites, "And this is why women don't want to have their babies." "This article was written by a man-child." "Everyone caters to men enough as it is, we're tired of hearing you whining." "The world is your playground and you still cry all the time."
4. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  This is, this is like really great to sort of self-select, because th- those women are all taking themselves out of men's lives, and we all appreciate that too. Like we, I do, like those are, they all sound like really horrible people. And people were just sort of, they painted in a picture of their own creation, they were like, "Oh, you don't want to spend ch- time with your children or your wives." And no one said anything about children, not talking about fathers, they're talking about men as a general group. And the point was lost completely of male isolation and loneliness is a massive issue right now, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to spend a bit of time with your mates. It doesn't necessarily mean you have to be at a pub, could be playing computer games, it could be like this, uh, it's just the idea of men talking and sharing time together is a really, really important issue. And unfortunately, just the mere mention of that is too much for some people to handle.
5. CWChris Williamson
  Can you steel man the other side? What's the best interpretation of why people had a problem with men getting two nights a week to themselves?
6. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Uh, I, I've learned about a meme called, is it, Saturdays are for the boys, which became like a toxic meme (laughs) where the idea was that Saturday was supposed to be the boys' night. And I, I know, I've, I've dated quite a few women that have, have had really fair complaints about men that they've dated where they play Xbox every single night or they do go and see the boys every single, every other night and get drunk and hungover the next day. And like, like all things, if you, if you peel back all the outrage and hysteria, there is actually a fair point, and I do feel like th- that, uh, there are some valid criticisms of men spending too much time together. I, I don't buy into the whole toxicity of male-only spaces, I think male-only spaces are a really important part of men understanding each other, male bonding, male socialization. I feel the exact same way about women's spaces, but I feel like there's a lot of women out there who have a very, have had a very negative set of experiences of sort of dating men who are not given the time they d- want or deserve. Uh, so I see, I think there's probably a fair reason behind it, I just wish they would tone it down a little bit.
7. CWChris Williamson
  But why is it? Why, what, what do you think triggered that issue? Is it just more sort of low resolution thinking about male privilege? "Oh, well, they've already got it easy in the office and then they're not gonna contribute to the housework and they're gonna go out with their friends." Is it a threat somehow that spending time with the boys is a threat to the relationship?
8. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  I just think it, it seems to stem from a very fundamental misunderstanding of male loneliness, and the set of experiences that I, I don't think women can quite understand what it is like to be a lonely man, and the unique sense of isolation that many men feel, and how that links to male suicide. I think, I just don't think they can quite understand the same experience. Um, and, and also people just struggle to comprehend of the idea of men having issues inflicted upon them. People are happy to talk about male suffering, but only in the context of it's the man doing it to himself, it's his toxic masculinity, or it's the bloody patriarchy backfiring. People struggle or are just totally disinterested in the idea that something is happening to men that they do not have control over, they do not have agency or autonomy over, and that, and they are the victims in their own right. And male isolation is not a self-inflicted problem, um, part of it surely is, but it's a much wider issue. And one of those issues is people not wanting to talk about male, male (laughs) guys nights and thinking it's inherently a bad thing, which it isn't. Uh, and I mean, I've, I've been, I went to one house party once ago, well, ages ago, at uni I went to a house party and no women turned up. No, not a single woman turned ... one woman turned up and then left. And it was just the ultimate sausage fest. And I'm telling you, it was the best house party I've ever been too.
9. CWChris Williamson
  (laughs)
10. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  And it was, it was just like, the h- e- everyone's, everyone stopped trying to like, just, like basically fuck women, everyone stopped trying to impress women and alpha each other, and it was just the lads, we had like arm wrestle tournaments, we had like, um, we had this massive giant banana hanging from the ceiling that everyone was trying to kick, it was just like the most re- amazing, (laughs) amazing house party I've ever been to. And it was like a, it was almost like it was spiritual almost, and I'm just like, I really believe in it. And it's, I guess it paints a wider... The problem, the wider problem is a lack of male spaces and, and how society, uh, is impacted and damaged as a result of that, like youth clubs for example, and the, the closing of youth clubs in London and how that impacts knife crime going up. Because closing these male spaces, uh, like Boy Scouts for example, like the men, the boys and men go elsewhere, and often they're taken to gangs, uh, and then that, you've obviously got to look at that within the context of like fatherlessness and the lack of male role models in schools, and the lack of male role models in TV. Overall, like we're just losing these male spaces and these conversations for men, uh, and that's, yeah, that's my, my perspective of it.
6:00 – 11:35
What Do Women Think Guys Are Doing Together?
1. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah, it's strange. I- I wonder how much of it is that women don't know what guys get up to when it's just them and their guy friends. I- I wonder whether they think that it's, you know, th- this is finally the patriarchy getting their-
2. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah.
3. CWChris Williamson
  ... opportunity to plot the downfall. It's that, "I wonder if he's thinking of me," meme-
4. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
5. CWChris Williamson
  ... all over. And it's always like a dude thinking that if he doesn't do this next deadlift his whole family's gonna die, or him and his friends, like, seeing who can do the loudest fart using a decibel meter that someone's brought-
6. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  (laughs)
7. CWChris Williamson
  ... in from work. Like...
8. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah, I mean, I- I mean, I don't think women quite understand what it is to be with boys. It's interesting. It's that classic story you hear where, uh, you know, husband goes out, spends the night with the lads, comes home, and the next day his- his wife or girlfriend is asking him all about it, and, "What's, uh, so-and-so up to, and how are the children?" And he don't- he knows none of it. Like, he's not asking any- any- anything about your family or friends or-
9. CWChris Williamson
  No idea.
10. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  ... what you do on Housewife... We just talk about the most random, insani- like, who's gonna win a fight between King Kong and Godzilla, et cetera-
11. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah.
12. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  ... et cetera, et cetera. And that's like... I feel like that's great. Like, it's a chance to, like, unwind and not talk about really intense things, and j- and, like, relax, I think. And, uh-
13. CWChris Williamson
  It's an interesting, uh-
14. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  ... impo-
15. CWChris Williamson
  It's an interesting duality, right? Because on one side, uh, there is this push for men to open up and- and talk about their feelings more, for them to, uh, get in touch with their feelings, to be emotionally more mature, uh, to-
16. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm-hmm.
17. CWChris Williamson
  ... be more well-balanced members of society.
18. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah.
19. CWChris Williamson
  But this requirement of men to be with other men... Like, if you were to say-
20. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah.
21. CWChris Williamson
  ... that, uh, brunch with the girls is, um, like, part of a misandrist conspiracy theory to keep men out from bottomless Prosecco meetings or something-
22. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah.
23. CWChris Williamson
  ... it would be ridiculous. Uh, but because for a long time some male-only spaces were vaulted positions of power in which there were meetings going on where, you know, how... The high-powered lawyers, and the people that were doing investments, and so on and so forth.
24. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm-hmm.
25. CWChris Williamson
  But in January of last year, the highest number of female CEOs ever were recruited, and it was, like, over a third of CEOs were women. I don't know-
26. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Hm.
27. CWChris Williamson
  ... how many women want to be CEOs, my point being that a lot of male spaces have been destroyed and a lot of the upper echelons that were gendered spaces have also been cut down for precisely that reason. But it's also caused all of the stuff at the bottom end of the funnel to get destroyed too. Like-
28. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Hm.
29. CWChris Williamson
  ... boys night got... I-
30. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  (laughs)
11:35 – 16:30
Explaining ‘Are We Dating the Same Guy?’ Facebook Groups
1. GTGeorge TheTinMen
2. CWChris Williamson
  So, I first learned about Are We Dating The Same Guy on your-
3. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Oh, yeah.
4. CWChris Williamson
  ... Instagram account, and then since then-
5. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah.
6. CWChris Williamson
  ... I've seen it trending more online. What is Are We Dating The Same Guy, for the people who aren't familiar with it?
7. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Um, Are We Dating The Same Guy is a series of private Facebook groups all over the world. So if you live in a major city in the West, especially America, Canada, UK, Australia, mostly, all the major cities have them. They have about 10,000 to over 100, 150,000 members, and they're all private. You can't join unless you're a woman. And they're basically... They started off well-intended. They were about helping women make good decisions whilst dating and sort of checking out for red flags of...... uh, sort of men. And then it sort of changed and it became a bit more, well, a lot more toxic, a lot more nefarious. It became a space where women were sort of sharing photos and names and, uh, workplaces of where these men worked, and like basically doxing them, and then humiliating them, like talking about their bodies in h- horrific ways. And then it got worse. And then it was like women talking about their husbands and their long-term partners, and how to sort of track them. I saw one story's about how to unlock your husband's phone when he's asleep using sort of facial recognition. Uh, one of them was about, "I've bought my boyfriend these, um, blue reflective glasses for light, but I bought them so I could see what he was doing on his phone in the reflection of his glasses." Like, one was trying to find out the identification number of a car her husband is in. Another was how to plant Apple tags on your husband, on his car. And it's just like, what started off as a, what seemed like a well-intended set of groups for women's safety became very much the opposite, and it became like a threat to men's safety. And like, it's- it's led to suicides. It's led to a man being killed by his partner. And it's like, it's gotten so out of hand, as it always does. And there are so many men that have messaged me being like, "I've been brought up in these groups. I can't get the photo taken down. I've talked to Facebook, they don't do anything. I've done nothing wrong. Like everything that's been said is not true." And, um, yeah, "Are we dating the same guy?" It's a s- terrifying phenomenon. And...
8. CWChris Williamson
  So it's not just about women working out whether or not they're dating the same guy?
9. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Um, no. It, I mean, that's how it started, but now it's just everything. There's like women offering like loyalty tests and stuff, like, "Oh, I'm gonna talk to your boyfriend, I'm trying to get him to, like, flirt with me and hook up with me." I'm like-
10. CWChris Williamson
  Oh, like a honey trap thing?
11. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah, like a honey tr- And it's just like, it's, it's not what it was. If it e- I'm not even sure if it ever was that. But it's just gotten so out of hand, um, and they're all private. I've got a mole in a few of them. (laughs)
12. CWChris Williamson
  (laughs) Are you the counter-resistance?
13. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  My- my girlfriend's in, in a few, and it's just like, "I want to find out what's going on."
14. CWChris Williamson
  (laughs)
15. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  And like, uh, like some of them, some of the things you see in there are horrific. And if it- if that was the inverse of like a group of hundreds of thousands of men sharing the photos and names, uh, like where they live, of women, that would be, that would be outrageous. And it is outrageous, and it's just like a- like basically a kangaroo court for a bunch of resentful single women to whine about men. And that, I mean that-
16. CWChris Williamson
  But, okay, so there's- I thought it- I thought this sounded like it had transitioned into a lot of women who had partners, but were just nervous about whether or not they were being faithful and truthful and honest.
17. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  It's a many feather bird. I think it's a lot... it's just a big shit show. Uh, and it's just, yeah, it's all of those things plus many more, and it's absolutely enormous. And I just hear, I'm just hearing a lot of horrible things. And, uh, it's just basically a way of bullying men and shaming men and humiliating them, and just saying things about their bodies, and just, "Look at this profile, what do you think?" And then it's just that... Honestly, some of the stuff you read is just horrific.
18. CWChris Williamson
  Well, there was a- there was something similar, like the pink pill on Reddit, r/ThePinkPill and r/female-dating-strategy.
19. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
20. CWChris Williamson
  Do you remember that?
21. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, yes. That's the same. It's- it's just basically a- another group of angry women, uh, ranting about men, and just hating men as a generalized group. Not- not any specific men, just men as a concept. And it's- it's dehumanizing. They have their own set of languages and they call men, like, Misters, and it's- it's just a very sorry society.
22. CWChris Williamson
  That doesn't sound too bad.
23. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  (laughs)
24. CWChris Williamson
  Misters doesn't sound too bad.
25. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  I don't think, I mean, I'm not sure what the- the concept is behind it, but I'm sure it's offensive. And, um...
26. CWChris Williamson
  (laughs)
27. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  It's just like, I guess the- these, to me, feel like the female equivalent of incels. Like angry, bitter, lonely women who need help, who probably have a very difficult set of experiences involving men, and they've decided to take it out on the online world through these groups and others. And it's a very interesting thing, it's like an interesting point about women's spaces and men's spaces and how- how- how do they become toxic. And they certainly do, and we need to be careful around it. Um, but yeah.
28. CWChris Williamson
  I wonder if the
16:30 – 20:19
The Path to Becoming a Female Incel
1. CWChris Williamson
  descent into toxicity happens differently for women than it does for men. I wonder if you... You know, William Costello is doing a lot of work at the moment tracking-
2. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm-hmm.
3. CWChris Williamson
  ... the, uh, incelsphere, what's going on, what the- what the constituent members are, uh, over-representations of autism, over-representations of disability-
4. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Hmm.
5. CWChris Williamson
  ... over-representations of, uh, people with left-leaning ideology, with people who are, uh, nonwhite.
6. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah.
7. CWChris Williamson
  Um, so that's interesting. But I'd love, I'd love for there to be a study to look at what causes a- a disgruntled woman. Because, you know, in some ways, uh, you need to do it because you say, "This is not good for the people that are the members of it, or for the people that are the victims on the other side of it."
8. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm-hmm.
9. CWChris Williamson
  Like, I wouldn't say that there are any women that would be like, "Oh, I feel, uh, very enthused to know that the incel movement i- is- is gaining steam," or that they've got, you know, a virulent fucking forum or something like that, in the same way that men aren't going to say the same thing about women. But the other thing is, it also kind of creates a list of risk factors that people who are currently feeling healthy about whatever it is that they're doing in their life can say, "Oh, well, actually X percent of people that are a member of this group, which I don't want to fall into, are, they spend less than five hours with friends per week." Or, "They, um, had an undiagnosed, uh, psychiatric disorder," or they had, uh, like, uh, something in their childhood that came up. So what you see is these different way markers that other people can use-
10. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah.
11. CWChris Williamson
  ... to avoid tumbling down-
12. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah.
13. CWChris Williamson
  ... the same rabbit hole.
14. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah. I mean, I- I, one of my fundamental concepts on The Tin Men is not to see people as sort of static endpoints. They're not... No one's born bad. People are the, sort of the product of their life experiences. Um, and I li- uh, one way of seeing it is like, um...There's no such thing as abnormal behavior. There's only, um, a normal response to an abnormal set of experiences. That's what it is. So it's like, the idea is that anything can be in seen... Anything can be seen as normal if you can understand a wider context of the person making that, that decision and, and those behaviors. And, like, incels, for example, like, they are so widely misunderstood in the ways you described. They are majority, according to William's research, which is amazing, like mostly left-leaning, mostly, um, incels of color. (laughs) That's about as you can put it.
15. CWChris Williamson
  (laughs)
16. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  And, um, the funny thing is about looking at incels who are Black, for example, is that people... And William said this as well. Like, people are a lot more compassionate. People are a lot more willing to talk about lonely, isolated, depressed, anxious, um, Black men. But when you talk about that as white men, that's when everyone starts throwing around incel labels and starts sorta losing their mind. But you are right, is that we are all the product of our experiences. And the women in these groups, they didn't arrive there for no reason. They've on-... They've been on their own journey, and they probably have me- met a bunch of shitty guys, and they probably had some horrific dates. I... When I was dating, I always used to ask the women I was dating about, like, "What's your worst date?" Like, "Tell me about your nightmare." And that... Some of the stories I heard were horrific. And, uh, I'm ha- happy to say I didn't have many to share on my side. I've, I've been very lucky. But you are right in the sense that we are all formed from our experiences. We need to, like, not see men, for example, as a static endpoint and ask ourselves, "What has he been through to become this way?" in the same way as we ask that of women in the way you described. And incels, for example. Like, exactly, we need to grow up about incels. Like, we keep... People keep talking about being mental health advocates, and I'm like, "Great. Well, the incel problem is like the extreme form of that." That is the men's, the men's mental health crisis, like on steroids. And if you're not willing to talk about them in a way that isn't so dehumanizing and perhaps looks at what they've been through and then maybe even has a bit of compassion, then I don't know if you really are a mental health advocate at all. So yeah, no, a lot to
20:19 – 29:09
Women Bragging About Abusing Men
1. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  be said.
2. CWChris Williamson
  What was Bad Girl's Advice and Jezebel? I've... I learned about both of those. I feel like I get a window into subcultures of the internet just through your Instagram account.
3. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah, it's terrifying. Bad Girl's Advice was the same again. Both of them are the same in the sense that it was a bunch of women bragging about physically abusing their sort of partners, their male partners. Beating them up and, like, basically sharing stories and, like, below that all these comments about, "Yeah, scream. You get him. Great job." And Jezebel, in particular, who have now gone bankrupt, which is great news. Uh, a few months ago, they've just closed their doors. They no longer exist. But they put up an article. And the thing that's interesting about this article is that a piece of research I'm familiar with by Daniel Whitaker came out that found that half of domestic abuse is bilateral, meaning half the... Half of domestic abusive relationships, both partners doing it, and then of the other half where it's, um, non-reciprocal, women are 70% of non-reciprocally abusive relationships. So this idea of male-only abuse is the lea- is the third least... the third most popular form of abuse. That's a really interesting piece of research. But Jezebel decided to do their own thing, and for them it became an opportunity for their editors and writers to basically, again, compare notes about boys they've dated, men they're partnered with, uh, about beating them up. Like, physically abusing men in their lives. Like, punching them, smashing their glasses, like hitting them. And it was like, again, not, not through shame, not through like a s- sense of admission, but bragging about it. Bragging and bragging-
4. CWChris Williamson
  Why would they do that?
5. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Because there's a clear double standard between men who are violent to women and women who are violent to men. Like, one is seen as a joke, the other one's seen as a national epidemic. And-
6. CWChris Williamson
  But what was the justification? I still... I... You know, I don't see... I, I can't imagine a woman who would say, "Congratulations, you hit your boyfriend." Is... Was this like righteous retribution for the entire male sex and its misgivings against women? Is that what was happening?
7. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  I think it... It's just like a massive bastardization, contortion of this sort of boss bitch queen, go get your bad girl, you're a powerful woman sort of archetype. And this has pushed to its, like, 150% where we... Where actually somehow they're praising violent women and they, they seem to think that to be a strong woman is about being a complete dickhead, and those two are not the same thing. And I don't know. I honestly do not know. I don't... I, I see that article and I'm horrified. Uh, I, I can't even get... Begin to get my head around why a bunch of women would brag about physically abusing men. Uh, I don't think we'd see that article written in GQ or FHM about their male journalist being like, "Yeah, I went home and punched my wife right in the face." And the article is still up. Like, they've had so long to, like, take it down and they haven't. It's still there. They don't... They don't seem to understand the double standard that they're sort of involved in. But I haven't really got a good enough answer for you, but I do feel like some women think that to be violent or to be a dickhead is somehow a sign of a strong woman or an empowered woman, and it obviously isn't. In fact, it's the opposite.
8. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah, that's wild. That's wild. Talk to me about the social psychology of Drake's dick pic.
9. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  This is... (laughs) Yeah. This is... This is... This happened hours ago, but from what I understand is that Drake... Drake's dick has now been leaked online. Not seen it, not interested in seeing it, uh, but it has brought up an interesting double standard where there's a lot of women on Twitter right now sort of melting over these images, over a well-endowed Drake, let's put it that way. And it's just everywhere. It's just being thrown around, flinged around, like everyone's just talking about it. Like, "How great." And I'm just like, no respect for his privacy or his body. And of... It is difficult not to compare it to what's happening to Taylor Swift and how she had that AI-generated image of her. Not real at all. I haven't seen it either. And I was like, everyone's outraged over that, and they're bringing in... They're changing laws to stop that from happening, which is fair enough.... but Drake's actual dick has been leaked and it's, like, quite explicit, and the, I imagine the people that were kicking off over Taylor Swift, now they're one sharing it and tweeting about how great it is. And (inhales deeply) it's a developing story for sure, but a definite double standard about how we seem to respect women's privacy more when it comes to these sort of things than men's. And again, that's not to say women having their nudes leaked, celebrity women, is not a massive issue. Of course it is, but it's still an interesting double standard about how when it happens to a man, it's sort of a fair game, like it's open season. Uh, but yeah.
10. CWChris Williamson
  I wonder how many men come out in sort of defen- it seems like guys lose on both sides, that women will come out in defense of women who've had their nudes leaked.
11. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Hmm.
12. CWChris Williamson
  And men will probably feel at least a little bit reticent about publicly talking about them. Maybe in WhatsApp it'll get forwarded quite a lot.
13. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Hmm.
14. CWChris Williamson
  But, uh, publicly they're not gonna talk about it, and the reverse seems to be true if it's a guy's. I don't think, I don't know, like, unless I was feeling particularly, uh, like, uh, paragon-y that day, I, I don't know whether I would shout up, as a normal person who didn't have a platform, and just be like, "This is ridiculous, like all of these people..." Like that's just not the guy impulse-
15. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Hmm.
16. CWChris Williamson
  ... to kind of s- step in, in, in that way. There's something kind of a bit icky about it being a, a guy's nudity in any case, that guys do sort of k- lean away from a little bit.
17. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  There is, there is a weird unexpected sense of respect that a lot of men have for their partners, especially around sex. And this is a- another double stand that I've noticed a lot and something I, I personally associate with, is that I hear a lot of, I hear a lot about women who are sleeping with men and they talk openly and in detail about these sexual experiences, about the guy's dick, about his body, and it's just like, you know, girl banter. And then women tell me this, like, it's normal and then, like, "You must talk about it with guys," and we're like, "We never talk about it." Like m- maybe we'll confirm the act has happened and that is it. Like w- we don't, we don't go into detail, we don't talk about their bodies, we don't go into sort of step-by-step guide of exactly what happened. And like, I've, I've been on dates with women and like we've slept together and then the next day, like one of her friends comes over and like pats me on the back, like "Good job, George," and I'm like, "What?" And then she just basically saying like good job for, you know, great sex. And I'm just like, I'm like, that is crazy how you've already had that conversation and like no consideration of my privacy. So I think there is a very interesting fast and loose style to discourse around women talking about men's bodies in that context that surprisingly men don't seem to have. There's a weird sense of respect that men have for their partner's bodies and sex. And I-
18. CWChris Williamson
  I think it's certainly the case in long term relationships.
19. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah.
20. CWChris Williamson
  I'd be t- I would be tempted to say that it maybe switches at least a little bit in short term relationships, but a good chunk of that is because of the incentives, because guys see a short term casual hookup as a badge of honor, whereas girls probably want to talk about it a little bit less, depending on the kind of girl that it is, depending on her psychology. But yeah, I mean, dude, if I was to say, I mean, (sighs) I don't know, th- would girls ask another girl, "Oh, what's George like in bed?"
21. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  (laughs)
22. CWChris Williamson
  Like, "What's your boyfriend like in bed? I have no idea." That seems, even to me that seems a little bit too far. But if I was to ask my, like married or engaged or long term bro friends, "Oh dude, does such and such, like does she give good head? What's that like?" (laughs)
23. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah. Yeah. It's-
24. CWChris Williamson
  I mean, that is crossing a huge line and they're never gonna tell you.
25. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  No. No, it's, yeah, I don't, I think a lot of men don't have those conversations. I don't think they're interested. I think that's more what women talk about, uh, but then again I've never been in those conversations either. Um, I don't know, but it's definitely an example of what, what can become quite toxic. You can see the remnants of like what could become female dating strategy or what could become are we dating the same guy. And I just think that's women as the guardians and masters of language, that makes a lot of sense. Like they are the innovators of language. They are the, the, they are so much better than men at building relationships and coalitions and groups and networking and yeah, like language es- especially and, like, it makes sense that, that, that, uh, has its pros and it has its cons, and this whole like gossiping relational aggression style of discourse that is mostly women is a very interesting thing that also we're not talking about. Especially in bullying, like the bullying between girls, this is something that Jonathan Haidt talks about a lot and it's very interesting and we don't, that's never framed as toxic femininity, like gossip culture, whispering campaigns, cancel, canceling people, and I think that's a very interesting insight into what can become from a quite toxic women only groups.
29:09 – 33:13
The Advantage Women Have Over Men
1. CWChris Williamson
  I had a conversation with Freya India earlier this week.
2. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Okay.
3. CWChris Williamson
  Uh, while I'm, uh, for the people who are watching on YouTube, uh, and for the people who are just listening, I'm in a slightly different location at the moment, which I've been fighting to get the internet to work-
4. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  (laughs)
5. CWChris Williamson
  ... for two hours. I'm still in Honduras in Roatan, uh, so third world country but second world internet, so we've been able to make it work.
6. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Made it.
7. CWChris Williamson
  Um, but I had a conversation with Freya while I was out here and she was telling me that the deft, nuanced venting, intrasexual competitiveness, the use of exclusion and kind of-
8. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Hmm.
9. CWChris Williamson
  ... soft cancellation of friendships and all this stuff for girls is fucking brutal. Like it's so ruthless.
10. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm-hmm.
11. CWChris Williamson
  And I don't want to do the reversal of the common trope which is, uh, like women harmed, men most affected, which is often like the reverse is talked about.
12. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah.
13. CWChris Williamson
  But, um, if you think about the tools that women wield, uh, emotionally, linguistically-
14. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm-hmm.
15. CWChris Williamson
  ... uh, uh, that is a fight that many men are unarmed to be able to compete with. It's the same, you know, a, a woman's, um, emotional ability and that coalitional relational aggression thing is their specific strength when it comes, especially within, uh, small groups-
16. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm-hmm.
17. CWChris Williamson
  ... in the same way as a man's is his physical power.
18. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm-hmm.
19. CWChris Williamson
  Or a group's would be the physical threat that they're able to bestow. So if you have this sort of back and forth, if you have a group of women that are able to-... castigate or, or direct their ire and the Eye of Sauron toward men or, or, or a man or whatever.
20. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah.
21. CWChris Williamson
  That man is hopelessly outgunned in that particular arena-
22. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah.
23. CWChris Williamson
  ... because his ability to do the same is the same inversion as a woman's ability to fight back physically.
24. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah. So I mean, everyone talks about how men have an advantage in women's sports in terms of trans women, uh, tr- trans women in women's sports and the physical advantage males have over women, and that's a very interesting conversation, but no one ever talks about how like women, for example, are a generation ahead of men in terms of innovating within language. That it's like they're so far ahead of men in terms of the ability to speak and communicate. It's partly biological, partly socialized, so that doesn't really matter, but no one really talks about how does that give them an advantage in these spaces. Like how does that allow th- give them power, the power of like soft power, for example, or the power of persuasion and influence. Uh, I haven't got the numbers exactly, but I know everyone talks about power dynamics in terms of hard power, presidents, congressmen, politicians, CEOs, all men having hard power. But if you actually look at the normal day-to-day decisions men and women have, especially in relationships, like what watching t- for TV, what we're watching on TV, what we're eating for dinner, when we're going on holiday, those are decisions made by women. And something like about, of about 15 biggest questions in a normal person's life, about 13 of them are made by women, the female partner. And they do have more soft power. Um, but no one ever seems to want to talk about that. Uh, and why not? Bas- it's to show a woman's superiority over men in their own domain, and you're right, in that men in many ways have, uh, dominant, are dominant in the physical realm because of our greater physical strength, but women, uh, have, have their own dominance in this sort of linguistic and relational realm. And women, women are hurt by that, like I said, of bullying. Like girls bullying girls in America, massive problem, especially when you bring in things like social media where girls can bully g- other girls 24 hours a day an- with anonymity, and it, it's leading to a massive peak, a massive rise in suicide in young girls. So this unspoken about form of aggression, relational aggression, which has been seen in girls as young as two, is not being discussed, and it's hurting women most of all.
25. CWChris Williamson
  Well, an inability to see women as anything other than pure and perfect and good-
26. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm.
27. CWChris Williamson
  ... and gracious and angelic-
28. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm.
29. CWChris Williamson
  ... is, it, it denies other women the ability to accuse the female perpetrators of, of meanness against them.
33:13 – 37:40
Hollywood’s Damaging Portrayal of Women
1. CWChris Williamson
  You know, it's the same with, I've said this a million times, but so many of the movies at the moment have perfect female protagonists.
2. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm.
3. CWChris Williamson
  They don't have to overcome anything. They never get anything wrong. The only challenge-
4. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm.
5. CWChris Williamson
  ... that they ever face is that the world doesn't believe in them or that there's some man that holds a position of power who's trying to get in the way. And fucking going back and re-gendering or re-sexing all of your favorite movies so that it's got some like brave new woman female lead, I mean, it's not working at the box office, but I don't think that it's an empowering message to send to women either. I think it's patronizing.
6. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yes.
7. CWChris Williamson
  And I think that it makes them fragile and it makes them, uh, narcissistic. And if it doesn't make them narcissistic, it makes their friends more likely to be narcissistic, even if you're the-
8. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm.
9. CWChris Williamson
  ... sort of girl who's been able to like, "You know, I was raised well and I understand that I need to work hard and the w- I shouldn't expect the world to give me anything." It's like, yeah, but what's the message that's being sent to other girls who don't have that same robust background-
10. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm.
11. CWChris Williamson
  ... that they're coming out of? Who are the people that you're gonna have to try and be fucking friends with? They're not going to be good. They're not going to be balanced.
12. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  No. Well, yeah, there's like a pleth- plethora of really dull two-dimensional female superheroes, for example, and like you're right in the sense that the reason that what makes the male superheroes great is not their strength but their weaknesses. So it's like you have Thor who becomes an alcoholic and gains weight. You have Iron Man who's sort of constantly living under the shadow of his dad. You have the Hulk, who's got, is suffering very complex mental health problems. And that's what makes them human and relatable. Otherwise, they're just people flying around in capes that we don't know really who they are. But with the women, um, within this new generation of superheroes, they don't have any of those weaknesses. They're just 10 out of 10 (laughs) in strength, in every single possible way. They don't have any sort of weaknesses. There's no vulnerability there. And I feel like the writers are just afraid to make them vulnerable because it will just lead to outrage, and again, you're, you're creating a very narrow two-dimensional set of characters. It's a bit like Captain Marvel. I remember watching that film and it was like building up to the final fight scene between her and Jude Law, and he's just like, "Come on, let's fight. Come on, prove yourself to me, prove yourself." And she's like, "I don't need to prove myself to anyone." And then she walks off-
13. CWChris Williamson
  (laughs)
14. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  ... and I'm like, that was, I was like, "That was the final fight." That was like, I've been sat here waiting for that, and she walks off (laughs) and I was just like, "How boring, how cliche." And, um, I just think that's, that, that explains partly, in my opinion, why Marvel is falling apart, 'cause they're stuck in this sort of political dogma where they don't want to actually write human beings as characters, they just wanna write these very cartoonish, infantile style of women.
15. CWChris Williamson
  I think there's definitely going to be a gap in the market both for media and entertainment, uh, and messaging and community and all of that stuff, but also for women who are able to be more forthcoming than that and more resilient than that. Because you have to think, if almost everybody is being fed one type of message, if you're able-
16. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm.
17. CWChris Williamson
  ... to move back against that, that puts you into a very rarefied fucking cohort-
18. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm.
19. CWChris Williamson
  ... of a very small number of women. It's like, look-
20. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm.
21. CWChris Williamson
  ... if you're able to overcome difficult things, and this is, you know, what we want, we want robust, resilient people in the world. That sounds great. We do not want people that see victimhood where there is none and have this narcissistic entitlement about the things that they think that they deserve. That is not the world that anybody wants to live in. Even the people who are a part of it, the only reason that they're part of it is that they're, th- the only reason they're complicit is because they're benefactors. And if they weren't-
22. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah.
23. CWChris Williamson
  ... benefactors, they wouldn't be complicit.
24. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, this is...It's not... But it's not just cultural. Like, that's... It's in our legal system, it's in our political system, where we just constantly see women as victims only. They're not... They- they can't be violent, they can't be toxic, they can't be dangerous. They can't do anything wrong. They can't be criminals. And I feel like that's a massive disservice to the autonomy of women. That's what autonomy is. Autonomy is to do good or bad. It's their choice. That's what, that's what autonomy is. And it's amazing how people support women's autonomy, but never the autonomy to do things that they don't like, like women to be violent in a relationship, like... And when I say they're erased within, like, the legal and political system, I do mean quite literally. Like, in the UK, women can't even commit rape. Like, there's no
37:40 – 47:20
The Strange Laws Around Female Sexual Assault
1. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  possible way for them to rape a man.
2. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah, I saw, uh, I saw you do a carousel about this. What- what's the word on sexual assault for women?
3. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  So... (sighs) Well, it's controversial, but in the Sexual Offenses Act, um, it, uh, basically defines what ra- rape is. And the, and rape is basically the penetration of a penis. And if you don't have a penis, you can't commit rape. It doesn't matter what you do. It doesn't matter if you use drugs or assault a man while he's sleeping or use a weapon. It's not rape, and it can never be rape. So whenever people present these stats saying 99% of rapists are men, what they don't tell you is that women can't c- perpetrate rape at all, and nothing a woman does will ever constitute as rape. So that, that 1% is interesting. That 1% is women, but that's only like a joint venture. That's when a woman helps a man rape another man, and that's when a woman can legally be held responsible for rape.
4. CWChris Williamson
  Oh my gosh.
5. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  But in the UK, in the UK, it's not possible. And also our academic definitions of rape are based on that, which leads to very misleading statistics around sexual violence. And in America, it's interesting 'cause they changed it. They had the same laws, and the CDC about 10 years ago changed it where, gender-neutral. Uh, 'cause they found out 40% of, of rapes were not being captured in FBI statistics, and those, those are the rapes of women onto men. And it's very contr-
6. CWChris Williamson
  How does that happen? For the people that would say, "That's, there, there's no such thing as that. What's she doing? Putting her finger inside of him?" What would, what, what, what does that look like?
7. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Well, it's c- it's, it's classified as f- being forced to penetrate. So it has to be called something, and it's called forced to penetrate. And it's, it's captured in data, but it's always at the bottom, if captured at all. Uh, very complicated. Everyone falls back to have quite an antiquated view of sexual violence and rape where it has to use physical force. That, of course, does happen. I know friends that have been raped by women in their sleep, uh, whilst they're drunk, incapacitated. Uh, women w- would more often use weapons. And there's also coercion. So we're going back to the whole women having the power of language, and they're using that phys-, that psychological, emotional pressure, making threats. I heard one story about a woman that basically told her boyfriend if she, if he didn't have sex with her, she's gonna call 999, uh, and then accuse him of rape. And she put 99 on the phone, and the third nine, and was about to press call, and, uh, basically forced him to have sex with her. So, coercion. So rape, and it's sort of the, the horrific detail of its full picture, is not, it's not just about physical power. It's about much more than that. And th- the advantages that men have physically are not enough to stop it from happening. And it's a massive issue, and, uh, no one talks about it. Thankfully, the Americans have led the way in changing the laws to make it gender-neutral. And they revealed this massive cohort of men that are being raped by women, and it's something we can do something about. But that hasn't happened in the UK. A lot of petitions have tried to change the, the law, but it's, it's still yet to happen.
8. CWChris Williamson
  What is the balance? If you changed the definition, and if you begin to include in a different way your definition, how, how does that adjust the numbers? Because, you know, we've heard for a very long time, and even me, like, all I've ever heard is that guys sexually assault girls.
9. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm-hmm.
10. CWChris Williamson
  Like, that's it. Um, so what, how egalitarian is the world of sexual assault?
11. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  A lot more than people are willing to admit. So th- it's interesting 'cause they changed it. They were basically capturing data, and, like, the number of men, the number of male rape victims is very low. It was like less than, it was about 7%, 8%, and then next year, it was like 36%, 37%. And then a few researchers, Laura Stempel, for example, excellent researcher, she was like, "Why has it suddenly gone from 7% to 36, 37%?" And she looked into it, and she realized it's because the definition of rape had been changed, and they'd introduced the men are raped by women. So, like I said, 40% of rapes were not being captured by FBI statistics because they were using a, a gendered, uh, definition of rape. Um, and yeah, we don't know. In the UK, we just don't know. We- we do not know how many men are being raped.
12. CWChris Williamson
  Especially if you're talking about, um, you know, uh, rape crisis centers or justice for victims and things like that.
13. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm-hmm.
14. CWChris Williamson
  You know, I've seen, I've seen those graphs where it says, uh, "This is how many sexual assaults occur. And of those, this is how many are reported. And of those, this is how many are investigated. And of those, this is how many are prosecuted. And of those, this is how many are convicted." And it's basically, th- like, don't get it wrong. It might as well be that male-to-female rape is legal with how rare the offense to conviction ratio is.
15. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah.
16. CWChris Williamson
  Now there's a, a whole bunch of ways that you can have false allegations and all the rest of the things, but this is Jimmy Carr's point. Jimmy Carr taught me this, and he was like, "It's fucking atrocious." But if you are... Again, the same thing. I- if feminists are for equality, they should be campa- campaigning as much for the things that boys and men don't have as they do for the things that girls and women don't have. And the same thing true here. Like if you're saying that, you know, one third of victims are guys in one form or another, and we already know about the male proclivity to not ask for help, to not admit medical problems, to not admit if they've been domestically abused by their significant other because it seems even more, on top of all of the other things and the trauma and everything else, it's emasculating.
17. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah.
18. CWChris Williamson
  And they're, they're gonna be scared that they're gonna be seen as, uh, weak or a, a, a, a pussy, you know. There's, there's all of the problems that you have for women get pivoted in different ways for men too, but, you know, there's not... I mean, dude, uh, you're, you're big on trying to be early on these trends and advocating for the problems of men and boys. If you want this as a...... men can be sexually assaulted to ... by women ... and yes, it's a big problem. You are gonna be waiting, I mean, that is a-
19. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  A long time.
20. CWChris Williamson
  ... that is, that is a cruise ship-sized culture.
21. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah.
22. CWChris Williamson
  Because there's still, there's still this sort of pervasive idea that we haven't had the reckoning around male-to-female sexual assault fully yet, so going like, "Oh, I have another... what about this idea?"
23. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah.
24. CWChris Williamson
  That is gonna take, uh, it's gonna take a very long time.
25. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  I mean, it's, you can't deny the fact that violence against women, sexual violence against women is a horrific epidemic problem. I have people very close to me that have just, have experienced all these things and it is brutal. Like I really, really do think I understand that problem, and I'm in no way trying to diminish it. I'm always trying to add to the conversation, always trying to broaden perspectives and say, "Yes and, not, not either/or." Like it's, it's one part of a big problem. And again, like if refusing to talk about violent women does hurt women too. The most violent relationships are lesbian relationships, the least violent are gay relationships. It makes no sense in terms of like the fewer the men, the least violent the relationship becomes. And if you don't talk about violent women, then you're only gonna hurt lesbian women too. Um-
26. CWChris Williamson
  Is that actually true?
27. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah.
28. CWChris Williamson
  Because I'd seen, I'd seen a, a rebuttal to the, "The most violent relationships are the ones that don't have any men and it's lesbians that commit the most..." And then I saw a rebuttal that was like, "This is mid-wit thinking. The data doesn't back this up at all." So I stopped citing that. I stopped talking about that on the show maybe, not that it's common, I wasn't like citing it all the time, but I, I stopped believing it about six months ago. What's, what's the truth-
29. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Well-
30. CWChris Williamson
  ... about domestic violence?
47:20 – 55:10
What Are We Misunderstanding About Domestic Violence?
1. GTGeorge TheTinMen
2. CWChris Williamson
  Okay, so what's this... or what else is missing from the relational aggression standpoint? What's missing around the discussion to do with domestic violence?
3. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  I think male suicides as a result... suicides in general as a result of domestic violence needs to be talked about big time. Like that is like the, the constant bombardment and pressure of psychological abuse by both men and women is horrific and not discussed. Again, everyone talks about domestic homicide, which is a- a partner killing their other partner, and it's mostly talked about, you know, pr- pretty much exclusively talked about as in, as men doing it to women, uh, and it is mostly men doing it to women. About 77% of domestic homicides are men killing women. That doesn't mean we can't talk about the final quarter, but it is mostly women. But no one talks about suicides that are caused by domestic violence which are overwhelmingly male, and if you actually bring in suicides as a result of abuse, there are more male deaths as a result of domestic violence than female. And that, again, a massive, massive half the pie chart that's just ignored 'cause it's unpopular and, um, again we-
4. CWChris Williamson
  So what would, is that a, a guy is in a relationship with a woman and the pressure of that interpersonal sort of toxicity-
5. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Hm.
6. CWChris Williamson
  ... and stuff, uh, causes him to take his own life?
7. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Hm. And yeah, and more so like abuse by proxy, using children, taking children away, using the court system to destroy a man's life. Like there are so many amazing incredibly smart things that women are doing to men and men doing it to women, but like, um, parental alienation, for example, is when, uh, one parent turns the child against the other parent, so you're basically telling your child that, "Your dad's a deadbeat," or, "Your mom's a, you know, piece of shit." And like over time you basically turn the child against the parent, so you drop the child off and you come and pick the child up a week later and it hates you and you don't know why, and it's because the other partner has been turning against you. That's parental alienation. No one talks about that, uh, and that is abuse, and that, that can and does lead to suicides, and we need to talk about-... domestic violence in, in this detail. We need to have a much higher resolution discussion around domestic violence that isn't just this trope of male violence, 'cause that is just a small, small wedge of the problem.
8. CWChris Williamson
  I suppose the, the issue you have around this conversation is the impacts of male domestic violence are-
9. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm.
10. CWChris Williamson
  ... very plain and present, right?
11. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm.
12. CWChris Williamson
  You know, guys are able to enact more damage, they're stronger, therefore it looks significantly more bad on a evidence photograph reel, the gallery of problems, you know, the list of things that somebody's been admitted to hospital for. Dude, I watched, um, I watched this documentary about, I think he was called The Machine or, or The Juggernaut or something. He was a UFC... he was briefly in the UFC and then got let out, uh- uh- uh- uh got, um, released, and was a MMA guy and he was in a relationship with this adult actress.
13. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm.
14. CWChris Williamson
  And they'd been broken up for quite a while. He came around and found her in bed. This is, like, a good while after they'd split up. He came round and found her in bed with another man. And this dude's, you know, he's trained, he's beyond hard and psychopathic, and, and m- masochistic and narcissistic. He was trained. And he-
15. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm.
16. CWChris Williamson
  ... you know, got on top of this guy and, like, just fucking destroyed him. Meanwhile, the girl was trying to... I think she tried to call 999 or she tried to do something like that, uh, and he made the man promise that he was never gonna touch... uh, never gonna be around the woman again, and the guy obviously just said like, "Whatever," like anything.
17. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah.
18. CWChris Williamson
  Uh, got, got dressed and left 'cause he presumed that his ire had been directed just at the guy.
19. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm.
20. CWChris Williamson
  And then this UFC fight, it was all over the news a few years ago, this UFC fighter, uh, MMA guy just, like, brutalized this, uh, girl, and it was awful. Like, it was really difficult to watch. And her mother gives this testimony that sh- she... the only way... the only reason that she managed to escape, I think he got a knife, he got a knife and started hurting her with the knife and stuff, and, uh, she ran away, but, like, bloody feet sprinting down the street, like something out of a horror movie.
21. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm.
22. CWChris Williamson
  And the neighbor, uh, found her and called the police and, and did whatever. And, uh, the most chilling thing... there's a really interesting breakdown of it on, uh, some, like, criminal psychology YouTube channel people can go and watch, and the most interesting thing is when the mother gives her testimony about what she'd seen and about, you know, character witness and all the rest of it for both the daughter and the, the ex-partner. And this look that she gives the guy from the stand is terrifying. Like, so just the degree... you know, mother's love, mother to daughter is the tightest genetic bond that you're gonna have of any-
23. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah.
24. CWChris Williamson
  ... two people except for twins. And, uh, yeah, dude, it's, it's ruthless. But yeah, you know, you have that, but it's so... uh, the photos of her, her face is just ballooned up and there's cuts everywhere and all the rest of it, (sucks in breath) but the guy that takes his own life because the female partner has detached him from his friends or has been using his kids as a cudgel or has been derogating the, the relationship between his children and him or whatever, whatever.
25. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm.
26. CWChris Williamson
  Uh, and, you know, I understand that this... it's probably really uncomfortable for both guys and girls to hear. Like, you know, seeing the sour side of what your sex can do, seeing your-
27. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm.
28. CWChris Williamson
  ... uh, gender at its worst is not very pretty, but if you deny the fact that those things exist, you're not... i- it's not helping anybody.
29. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  You're not breaking the cycle of violence. Like, that's what's important. It's not about pointing fingers, it's about breaking the cycle of violence, 'cause violence is rec- is reciprocal and generational, and it's passed down through families and childhood. And I was like, unless you're gonna look at both sides of the equation, you'll never solve it, and we need to break the cycle of violence to which women contribute. Um, I have a sim- I have a... I read a similar story, but inverted, that ... Tony told which is heartbreaking, and I hope, I hope it sounds like there was some sort of justice. But here's a story where there was no justice, and this was only a few weeks ago. A woman stabbed her boyfriend to death. I think she stabbed him 108 times, and he die- and he died. And do you know what sentence she got?
30. CWChris Williamson
  She was let out. She got let out on bail.
55:10 – 1:01:54
Do Men Have Reproductive Rights?
1. CWChris Williamson
  Do you think that men have reproductive rights?
2. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  (laughs) Um-Not in the context of the way we discuss, like, pro-choice. Like, I'm pro-choice. I believe a woman should have the choice of what she does with her body if or when she has a child. I feel like not only does she benefit from that, but wider society benefits in the sense that we're not forcing women to have children they don't want. And if you look at the data, unwantedness causes a huge amount of issues later in life. A child born to an unwanted mum, for example, is more likely to be a criminal. Um, I like to apply that to men too, who don't have the same choice. So like, after conception, a man's choice to be a father is, is gone. He's sort of beholden to the woman's wish- wishes, which, which is quite right. He should not be able to choose if she keeps or has an abortion, in my opinion. But he's coming along for the ride whether he likes it or not. He has no choice. His choice was to wear a condom or not. And wha- whatever reason, maybe he did, if she becomes pregnant, there's no choice left. She can, you know, have a morning-after pill, she can have an abortion, she can have, she has safe haven laws, which basically mean that up to three weeks after birth, a woman can give a baby to a police station or fire station and they'll take it no questions asked. No name, no nothing. And as a, a man does not have that choice, and he is basically forced to finance a decision he has no choice in. And this is something that's called a paper abortion, or more recently called p- uh, voluntary parental surrender, which is a hypothetical right, which doesn't exist, for a man to, um, forfeit all privileges and responsibility to a child he doesn't want as long as, A, he tells the mum-to-be early in the pregnancy so she can make an informed choice, B, he contributes to the medical fees of childbirth. Uh, it doesn't exist. A lot of pro-choice feminists support it, like Karen DeCrow, and she was saying like, "An autonomous woman making a unilateral decision, uh, should not expect a man to finance that choice." And I get it, it's a very controversial thing. People think it gives men the ability to be sort of deadbeats and step out of childhood, and there are some fair criticisms. I'm, I don't necessarily think I support or unsupport it, but I wanna have that discussion. I want to know what might these rights look like for men? Can we give men more choice? And is forcing men to be dads to children they don't want gonna have the exact same problem as the same arm to women, where it was causing like a generation of unwanted, more likely to be criminal children? And we all know the links between fatherlessness and crime, juvenile crime in boys, and I want to know, will... Is giving choice to men and fathers gonna help them make that choice to become, to be a committed parent? Uh, as I feel like a parent that's chosen to be one is more likely to raise a child that's happy and healthy, and, uh, that's why I'm pro-choice for both men and women. Yeah.
3. CWChris Williamson
  What do you say to the people who would claim if you didn't want to be a father, you shouldn't have had sex?
4. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  (laughs) You know what I mean? I mean, there is a feminist slogan that says consenting to sex is not consenting to parenthood, and I agree, and that applies to men and women. Like, you'll see that sign on placards outside, um, protests held by feminists, consenting to sex is not consenting to parenthood. Some people disagree. That's why, that's my personal belief, and I like to extend that. I feel like, I think like 1 in 10 men in America have been forced or had a partner try to trick them into getting pregnant when they didn't want to. 1 in 10. So that's like the classic thing of like, "Oh, I'm on the pill. Oh no, I'm not." Like baby trapping, I suppose you'd call it that. And I'm like, well, they should have a choice. There are men who have been raped that have been legally compelled to pay child support. Uh, they didn't have a choice either. And boys, there have been boys that have been raped by babysitters, teachers, and they grow up like four or five years later, and then they're served court documents saying, "You owe this much money in child support." And I'm like, "They didn't have a choice either." So again, it's very complicated, um, and I just don't think this meme of, "Well, you shouldn't have had sex," is particularly, and on very modern perspective in my opinion, and it certainly doesn't apply to women unless you're, of course, pro-life.
5. CWChris Williamson
  I suppose this tumbles down from reproductive rights into custody rights as well. I haven't actually seen you write much about this, uh, although you post a lot on your Instagram.
6. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm.
7. CWChris Williamson
  So I, I very well may have missed it. What's the TLDR of, uh, fatherhood custody rights?
8. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Um, um, in America, probably best to talk about it. Um, so what a lot of people want is called a presumption of joint child custody. I think I got that right. And what that means is that the father and mother who are fighting for custody enter court on a level playing field. There's a presumption that we're gonna have a shared child custody here. Uh, currently, that doesn't exist. That only exists in two states, I think one of them is Kansas. Florida was gonna bring it in, but it got thrown out 'cause of so much campaigning against it by, ironically, the National Organization for Women, which is the biggest feminist group in America. They were the ones that were campaigning against equality, which is, just doesn't make any sense. Um, so presumption of shared custody basically allows both parents to go in, level playing field, and they basically build their case from there. They say, "Well, I, I earn this much, I have this much free time," and then obviously people start making accusations of abuse, and it becomes very messy in family court. But like I said, that presumption of shared child custody only exists in maybe two, perhaps three states. It's increasing, but not all of them. And in Amer- in England, in the UK it's even worse. Like in the UK, and if, if you're not married, you are screwed. Like, if you're not married or named on the birth certificate as a father, you have no right to that child.
9. CWChris Williamson
  Oh yeah, you, um, you said this about-
10. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Crazy.
11. CWChris Williamson
  This was your justification for why men should get married, or this is part of your justification for why men should get married.
12. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  (inhales deeply) I mean, I don't know if I made that argument, but if you want to keep... If you want to have equal rights to a child, you should be married. Yeah. And I just think that's... I mean, imagine a woman not having rights to something unless she was married to a man. That is, that is the ultimate, that is like the ultimate patriarchy definition, that you have to be married if you want equal rights. That's exactly how it exists in the UK for fathers. You have to be married or named on the birth certificate, and in both instances the mother can just be like, "No, I'm not gonna marry you. I'm not gonna name you." And then she has all, she has full, um, control of that child's life. You have none. And she'll have full rights no matter what. She doesn't have to be married. She can be single, divorced, separated, or married, doesn't matter. She has full rights to the child.... not in the UK, and not for men, and, um, it's not much better in America. But if you want to see serious systemic, um, sexism, then just go and spend a few hours outside a family court and talk to some of the fathers coming out, and you'll hear some stories that will change your mind, I think. Yeah.
1:01:54 – 1:07:34
Responding to Billie Eilish’s Comments About Men
1. GTGeorge TheTinMen
2. CWChris Williamson
  How right do you think Billie Eilish was when she spoke about men not facing criticism for their bodies because women are nice?
3. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Well, she's just ... I like Billie Eilish. I like her music, but that was so stupid. Like, um, like, some celebrities should just stick to what they- they're good at, which is singing, and just leave the politics to grownups. Basically, what she said was, "Men don't experience criticism for their bodies because women are nice." And I'm like, "What?" Like, it doesn't make any sense. Like, men get huge amount of criticism for their bodies, like, so much, including from women. Like, men, in some data I've seen have- show more signs of body dysmorphic disorder than women now. They're more self-conscious about their body. And not in the same way, that's what's interesting, not so much weight, but height, hairlines, facial hair, penis size, like diff- different things they're self-conscious about. And for Billie Eilish to say that is so stupid, and also in the context of the fact that she has herself shamed men's bodies. She talks horribly about ugly men and how entitled they are, and just horrible, horrible stuff. And it's interesting 'cause it brings into light some of the horrible operations and batshit crazy procedures that men are willing to o- undergo to alleviate these issues. Like, we're talking about leg breaking surgery, which is where a man pays thousands of pounds, and they'll surgically break his femurs. They'll insert titanium rods, and over the course of months, the titanium- titanium rods will extend about six inches, and he gains about six inches in height. Excruciatingly painful, very dangerous, and expensive, and it's becoming more and more popular for sort of, um, non-medical reasons, for men doing it for aesthetic reasons. And then you have, like, these horrible penis implants, uh, pumps and tablets, and, like, the fact that someone could think that men don't face criticism for their bodies is just ... reveals a breathtaking sense of ignorance. And for someone like Billie Eilish who has learnt a lot about being shamed and being objectified for her body, like, she should know better. And, um, I just think she's, you know, ignorant. She's just wrong, just wrong academically, and, yeah.
4. CWChris Williamson
  I learned from you that it's not just leg breaking surgeries, but there's penis surgeries now.
5. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah. There's, uh, I think it's called a Femena or something. It basically, it's like a silicon (laughs) spring roll that you just have inserted into your penis, and unlike other cosmetic surgeries, like boobs and bum implants, which are dangerous too, penis is not the same because it obviously grows and shrinks and changes shape throughout the day, and unlike your boobs, they stay more or less the same size, so it doesn't, just doesn't work. It's extremely dangerous, and there's very little, like, oversight over these sort of surgeries that men are undergoing. And if you talk ... If you listen to the reason why men are getting them, they're not ... they don't need them. They have perfectly functional, well-sized penises, but a lot of the reasons are like, "Oh, I felt like I wasn't satisfying her," or, you know, "I wanted to match up with her ex-boyfriend." And it- it speaks to a very deep, uh, much deeper, more candid insight into men's insecurities, and they're- they're right across the board, and, uh, we should be talking about them too, and we're not.
6. CWChris Williamson
  Yeah. Scott Griffiths, uh, from Australia was on the show, and he was talking about how male body dysmorphia is on track to overtake female body dysmorphia.
7. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm.
8. CWChris Williamson
  I think that the- the future of the issues between the sexes is going to be mental health for women and a lack of role models for them, and body image for men and their insecurity. I think that we're going to see a crisis of femininity, but a, uh, male body dysmorphia epidemic. I think that that may be where 10 years' time, five years' time, I think that may be where we end up.
9. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  I think the cri- ... I mean, if I want to put my Piss bet- Piss Bet cap on, I think the crisis of femininity is gonna be when they finally reach the end of the road of being, you know, Fortune 500 CEO and finally realize that is not the key to happiness. Like, it's not. Like-
10. CWChris Williamson
  Dude, I gotta-
11. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah.
12. CWChris Williamson
  ... I gotta tell you about this. It's, uh, Will Smith in his biography written by Mark Manson says, "When I was broke and miserable, I had hope-"
13. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm.
14. CWChris Williamson
  "... because I could become rich and it would make me happy. But when I was rich and miserable, I was despondent because I had nowhere else to go."
15. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Mm. Yeah. Like, I- I spent the first 10 years of my adult life building a fair amount of success, and it didn't make me happy. My dad did the same, spent his whole career doing it. I don't think it made him happy. It made him very lonely and isolated, and- and me as well. And if you just look at fundamental sense of meaning, like if they'd asked men and women, "Where do you find happiness in life?" And women have far more sources of happiness than- than men. They have, like, friends and family and hobbies, interests, uh, and work, and ... But men just have work, work and money. That's- that's where they find happiness. And I feel like too many women are trying to replicate that idea of if you're successful, you will be happy. And, um, I promise you, men have bought a ticket to that raffle many, many years ago, and it's- it's a many-feathered bird. It is not quite as simple as it seems. It may ... It probably will not make you happy. And I feel like women, in many ways, have the winning ticket already. They have amazing networks of friends. They have a really strong connection to their family. They are entering the workplace, um, and I don't think they should trade that in to follow men down the road that has led to so much misery for men later in life. And I ... That's why I think the crisis of femininity might be in 10 years when that realization hits and, uh, we're just surrounded by a re- a bunch of miserable boss bitch CEO CEOs. (laughs)
1:07:34 – 1:16:38
Men Are Facing Higher Discrimination Than Women
1. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  And yeah-
2. CWChris Williamson
  According to the biggest study of its kind, men are more likely to face hiring discrimination than women now.
3. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah. I mean, you're really racking up the controversial claims. Like, this is ... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, basically. Biggest study ever done into hiring bias, I think it was over 40 years, maybe 18 studies, hundreds of thousands of applicants studied. And what they do is they basically look at female and male applicants for jobs in female and male-dominated industries. So for women it's like teaching, healthcare, psychology, schooling. And for men it's, you know, engineering, science, physics and stuff like that. And they basically manipulate the CVs of equally qualified men and women, and they measure, uh, sort of callback rates. And they found that, um, the bias against women in male-dominated industries has disappeared, and in some cases reversed slightly. But the bias men experience in female-dominated industries remains consistent. So that was the first set of findings. The second set of findings was probably even more important and is our- our perspectives of, uh, hiring bias is completely wrong. We- we just totally misinterpret it. So they asked sort of the average American member of public and academics, "What do you think the bias is gonna be?" And they were just way out, way out, like three or four times out. And, um, again, we need to reset our perspective of hiring bias. And it's interesting because they had the exact same conclusion in Australia, 'cause they were trying to get more women into governmental positions. So they decided to hire blind, they decided to take gender off CVs and just hire based on merit. Which I'm like, "That's great." But what they found is they ended up hiring more men, so more men based on merit. And then it was such an unpopular thing that they decided to scrap it, so then they went back to putting names on CVs. And then they were like, "Oh, this is the kind of discrimination we like. We're gonna discriminate and get more women into positions of power." So yes, biggest study ever done into hiring bias has found that men are the ones being discriminated against. Of course it's changed over time. 20 years ago, it wasn't the case, but now it is. And I don't know why we cannot keep, like, our finger on the pulse of sexism and constantly shake, like, reform our opinion, reform our opinion, 'cause that is a sign of progress. We should be happy about how we've eliminated bias against women in male industries, uh, and give ourselves a pat on the back, and now do the same for men trying to get into nursing or healthcare or teaching. And also, like men, like, just being dads in playgrounds for children and stuff. And those are ... That's like the old girls' club, I think. I mean, I know so many fathers who are looked at as paedophiles or predators, babysitters, when they're waiting with their child at the playground. I saw, I read one story about a guy got pepper sprayed for taking a photo of his own kid. And I'm like-
4. CWChris Williamson
  (laughs)
5. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  ... we need to (laughs) we need to do a lot more to bring men into those spaces. And then I guess you have to, further down th- the chain you have like, there just aren't baby changing tables in men's changing rooms, so then men have to either go into women's changing rooms or change a baby somewhere else, and it's like-
6. CWChris Williamson
  Wow.
7. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  ... it's a two-way street.
8. CWChris Williamson
  Well, I think, uh, not the baby changing thing, that's insane. I didn't even know about that, and it makes complete sense. I ... Yeah, sometimes it's the disabled changes, but I guess I have seen ... I don't think I've ever seen it in the men's.
9. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  No.
10. CWChris Williamson
  I-
11. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  And it's annoying 'cause this happens alongside a separate conversation where we're constantly demanding fathers take equal responsibility for childcare. And I'm like, "Well, how about equal respect first? And how about equal rights?" Like, that's how it works. Like, if you want equal responsibility, you need to give equal rights. That's how it works, and no one is doing that. Everyone just demands more of fathers whilst constantly humiliating them. Yeah.
12. CWChris Williamson
  I suppose the interesting element of the guy getting pepper sprayed at the-
13. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Crazy.
14. CWChris Williamson
  ... playground because he was taking a photo of his own kid-
15. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  (laughs)
16. CWChris Williamson
  ... is that that is almost surely a product of what the culture and the memes have sort of pushed forward. And quite rightly, stranger danger, all of that's ... You know, like do not get into a car with somebody that you do not know. I remember the hedgehog from the Green Cross Code.
17. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  (laughs)
18. CWChris Williamson
  Like, you remember that guy?
19. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  Yeah. Yeah, I've not, yeah, I've not thought about hedgehog in many years, but thanks for bringing it right back.
20. CWChris Williamson
  Well ...
21. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  I mean, it's a, that's a great campaign, the fact that I'm like, "Oh yeah, the hedgehog." Um, I think it's, I think it's-
22. CWChris Williamson
  The Americans won't know what we're talking about. Maybe they had their own. They would have had a very patriotic hedgehog if it was 20 years ago.
23. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  But no one talks about women that way. Like, if anything, when women who spend more time with children, and mothers are the number one abusers of children, which is also unpopular but albeit true, no one talks about women that same way. There's so many headlines of, like, teachers, female teachers that are basically raping boys, and it's like, "Saucy teacher has fling with 14-year-old." I'm like, "She raped him." Like, stop this lucky boy phenomenon of like a boy is lucky to have sex with his teacher. I'm like, "What? That, she's a paedophile, and he's a victim of rape." And we don't have that same perspective whilst, whilst a man taking a photo of his own child pepper sprayed is another one.
24. CWChris Williamson
  (laughs)
25. GTGeorge TheTinMen
  And I saw another one, it was like a man waving at a child and the police got involved, and the police went and found the man, investigated 'cause they thought he was a paedophile. Turns out he was just waving the child across the road. He was like, "Yep, you can cross." And they were like, "Paedophile!" And it was a whole police investigation. And it's just, it's- it's gone too far. Like, there was ... Part of it is being mindful of your safety, and we should all be mindful of our safety. But when it becomes this hysterical fearmongering of men that stokes a cultural fear, it's gone way too far. When men are getting pepper sprayed like that, or being investigated by police for waving a child across the road, uh, we can all agree that's too much. Too much vilification, too much hysteria. Uh, this cultural panic has just gone way too far.

Episode duration: 1:53:38

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