Modern WisdomThe UFC's Cutting-Edge Strength Training - Dr Duncan French
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
125 min read · 24,875 words- 0:00 – 2:45
From Team GB to the UFC: Duncan French’s performance background
- DFDr Duncan French
... being able to internalize, what is your game plan? You know that you've done the work, you know that you're technically and tactically proficient in what you need to do, so how do you remove the white noise and pursue the signal of your mindfulness of being present in the moment? MMA is 90% mental, apart from the 60% that's physical.
- CWChris Williamson
Dr. Duncan French, welcome to the show.
- DFDr Duncan French
Hi, mate. How are you doing? Good to hear from you.
- CWChris Williamson
I know. It's nice to hear a familiar Northeastern voice while we're over in-
- DFDr Duncan French
I know.
- CWChris Williamson
... the States.
- DFDr Duncan French
I know, right? It's, uh, there's nothing like home when it comes down to it. Actually-
- CWChris Williamson
Harrogate for you, right?
- DFDr Duncan French
Originally North Yorkshire, yeah, Harrogate, Knaresborough region, and then, uh, moved to Newcastle for college and, uh, I kind of call Newcastle home now.
- CWChris Williamson
Wow.
- DFDr Duncan French
I'm an ados- adopted Geordie, let's say.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the number of times that I get accused of being Australian while I'm over here, I was at a big meetup yesterday and I got accused of being Australian more times than I got accused of being British. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not.
- DFDr Duncan French
Oh, mate, I get, uh, I, I mean, what? I'm in my fifth year, well, four years for my PhD, and then now five years since I came back to the States. I get everything from South African, to Australian, to New Zealand, to Arkansas, you name it. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Wow. So you've been working with, is it over 30 professional or Olympic sports since you started?
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah, I think 37, I think, was the last time I counted. So yeah, been, uh, been blessed. It's been good. Lots of, uh, lots of variety and lots of opportunity. But yeah, whether it's, you know, pro sport or the Olympic movement, um, I've, uh, I've been around the block, let's say. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
And it was three full Olympic cycles with Team GB as well?
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah, through the English Institute of Sport, which is obviously the high performance service provider to British Olympic programs, um, as well as Commonwealth programs like netball and things like that. But, um, I was a, a strength and conditioning coach and, you know, sports scientist through the, through the, um, the English Institute for about 14 years. So, as you say, a variety of different, um, sporting backgrounds. So it's been, it's been cool, cool ride right to now.
- CWChris Williamson
What's the common thread between all of those? Have you moved into specialties since you've been there? Was it always strength and conditioning? Was it performance?
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah, no, I mean, I've always been a, a strength and conditioning physical preparation coach. You know, that's, that's kind of what I would call my, you know, my, my primary area of expertise. Um, you know, with, with some sport science weaved into there. You know, I, I, uh, my degrees and things, PhDs are in sport science, um, but I certainly went round the coaching route, um, and then, uh, could call upon my strength and conditioning and, uh, my sport science throughout that. So, um, yeah, it's, uh, let's say many, many hats, many, uh, many strings to the bow when you need it, you know, that's kind of part of the deal.
- 2:45 – 6:29
What makes MMA athletes different: commitment, complexity, and consequences
- CWChris Williamson
So given the fact that you've had over 30 sports that you've worked with, and then you've stepped into the UFC, what is particularly unique about the athletes that you work with there? You've got this broad base of experience in the past, but now you're working with a very, uh, broad-ranging sport. What's different about the guys that you work with, their preparation, their training?
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah, I mean, listen, every sport's got its own culture, um, and, and things that you really resonate to and things that you're like, "Whoa, why are they doing it like that?" You know? And, um, you kind of question some of the behaviors. But, you know, I think I'm not bold enough to say, you know, the success is because of me. It's, it's, i- you know, hopefully I play, or, or my t- the teams that I'm involved with play a role in that. You know, athletes are successful before, um, you know, the service providers come online, and they'll be successful long after we're gone. I think, you know, when you look at all the different sports, they all come with different cultural approaches and different kind of dogmatic mindsets in, in what is good and what is bad. Um, you know, I'm blessed right now to work with combat athletes and, and obviously MMA fighters here in the UFC. And, uh, I think this is the one sport in, in all of my career where the challenges and the different, um, variables that go into success are so complex. Um, you know, th- this, this community, this group of athletes are, you know, they wanna win. And, um, you, you can harness that motivation and that energy. And, um, I think that's one thing which really differentiates combat athletes, is just the commitment to the grind. Um, any, any elite athlete at the highest level is doing things that are, you know, are different to the normal Joe Blow walking down the street, right? But I think when you look at the rigors of what MMA is and what these guys go through on a day-to-day basis, it, it truly has a lot to behold. And I think that's, that's what's fascinating about this community, you know? They are spitting sawdust and, and pretty honest as the day is long, but they are, you know, their, their, their commitment and their dedication to their craft and their ethic is, uh, is, uh, is, is unfoundering. It's amazing.
- CWChris Williamson
Would you say that the MMA fighters are about as ultimate of an athlete as you're going to get at the moment coming out of sport?
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah, I mean, again, I'm biased, right? Because I sit in this space right now, but again, I, you look at gymnasts or divers and the, you know, the skill and the artistry is amazing. It, you can take any sport and you can pull things from it. But just in terms of, you know, true athleticism and, and what an MMA fighter has to do by combining strength, power, conditioning, skill, um, s- the psychological component of being able to execute under what is, you know, truly severe and consequential outcomes, um, really differentiates them. And, and, and (laughs) it's funny because I get a lot of oth- other athletes or athletes that I've wor- worked with formally reaching out to me and saying, "Oh, you know, big fan of the UFC," or, um, I, I think that's kind of a measure when you have other pro athletes saying like, "I love watching MMA and the UFC, and those guys are unreal what they can do and..." Okay, well, if, if you're saying that, then, um, there's obviously something in it, which is, uh, which is pretty cool to hear.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, it's such an entertaining sport. You know, the guys have really, really got this format right, which is, it's, it's two guys or two girls in a eight-sided ring smashing seven shades of shit out of each other, uh, for a while.
- DFDr Duncan French
(laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
And then someone's hand gets raised at the end of it. You know, it's a fairly simple format, but it is so...... accessible, super entertaining. I think the buildup that they've got now, um, at first, I wasn't much of a fan of the cleaning up of the branding, but I think that that also makes everything look a lot more cleaner and- and professional, which is great. Um, going back to what you said before about the fact that there has been an influence of your input, the Performance Institute, on the outcomes that you're getting from the fighters. But because
- 6:29 – 9:22
The Performance Institute’s mission and how it measures success without ‘wins’
- CWChris Williamson
you are dealing with every fighter, the waterline of all of them gets raised up, right? Like, everybody has access to you guys. Now, not everybody's gonna get the same sort of outcomes because not everybody's as coachable, not everybody responds as well, they might have more dog- dogmatic ideologies within their own g- gym, and such like. But how are you, um, gauging the impact that you have across the board, across all fighters when everybody has access? It's not like the UFC beat some other organization in a big battle royale.
- DFDr Duncan French
Uh, it's a little different to any professional sporting organization where you're judged on wins and losses, uh, for all intents and purposes, right? Um, we're- we're- we're kind of the league, let's say, um, and we'll only ever bat 500 because we might be working with both athletes that are in the octagon at the same time for a main event. So, uh...
- CWChris Williamson
But you've never lost a fight.
- DFDr Duncan French
(laughs) Right. We've never, we've n- we've never lost a fight. We've also won-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DFDr Duncan French
... won a lot as well, right? (laughs) Uh, lost a lot, excuse me. I mean, um, I think, uh, you know, our- our evaluation of our success is based on different kind of KPIs and objectives. It comes down to, um, you know, what you said at the head of your question. Yes, the Performance Institute is about raising the level across the whole fight community globally. That's a, that's a big ambition, right? Um, but it's about slowly evolving the sport to e- embed, you know, better training science, better methodologies, better approaches for medicine, or nutrition, or whatever it may be. You know, the nature of injuries and the incidents of injuries and how they're happening around a- a wrestling practice that might have too many athletes on the mat at one time, and, you know, a wrestling scramble and someone might roll onto a- a- a- another pair working somewhere else on the mat, and you cause a stupid injury that's completely preventable. You know, tho- those type of things, we kind of try and keep an eye on. Um, looking at how athletes are making weight and the- the status of their weight-making exercises, and it do- is it done in a, in an- a- in an optimized fashion? You know, ultimately, we're in a weight classification sport, which in itself is a- a cultural approach. Not every sport requires you to make weight. That brings with it a lot of nuance and a lot of tradition and approaches. So, how do we kind of get the athletes into the octagon in the most optimal way possible, um, around the parameters of making weight and the guys having to cook weight? Um, and then other things like, you know, some of the performance metrics, like is the show entertaining, all the technical skills that have been executed? We take a lot of interest in that as well, because ultimately by association, whilst we're not necessarily the ones coaching those techniques or the technical tactical side of it, giving people physical attributes or a mental status to go and try a technique in competition, or, um, you know, as I say, optimizing someone's capability during competition, you- you would say that the probability of- of the- the fight being, um, at a higher level, at a higher standard is also got some influence by the work that we're doing as well.
- 9:22 – 11:20
Modernizing a martial art: blending artistry, tactics, and data (the ‘FMA’ model)
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. One of the things that's interesting is if you look back to the traditions of fighting, you know, your Bruce Lees, the very much a sort of savant artistic interpretation, you had more, uh, eastern martial arts that would involve things like energy, chi, s- such like. How are you finding the blend? Because I- you, I'm presuming you can't have completely got rid... And there's also, you know, the- the sort of fighters that are very much flow and natural and- and- and artistic in the way that they fight. How are you finding the blend between this artistic element and the data-driven in- in interventions that you need to make with people?
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah, it's a great question. Um, I mean, I think first and foremost, it's- it's martial arts, right? It's mixed martial arts. And whilst it's a, it's a competitive fight and the, you know, that- that's chaos often, um, i- you know, you'd be surprised the underpinning techniques and tactics that go into, uh, into the fight any moment in time. Um, and again, I draw on, you know, uh, something that's been brought into our ecosystem here at the Performance Institute through our, uh, head MMA coach over at our Shanghai Academy, Dean Amasinga. He talks about, uh, the MFA, which is the martial artists, so the M-, you- you know, the- the martial artists, they are fighters, and then they are also athletes, all right? So FMA. Like, we- we look at, uh, that kind of trifecta of in- influence. So when it comes to, you know, the artistry, the tactics, the- the technical skill set, you know, a lot of our guys still draw on Bruce Lee and- (laughs) and you know, some of those pure martial art, um, skill sets. And then, yeah, athleticism, we can put a lot of data and objectivity around athleticism. So whether it is martial arts, being a fighter, which is more mental and- and- and some physical attributes, but then also the physical attributes of athleticism and being an athlete, we can start to really nail down each of these three factors that go into, um, you know, driving success in our sport.
- 11:20 – 13:42
Working with many gyms and coaches: reducing tension and improving data maturity
- CWChris Williamson
Talking about some of the tensions that might be going on between the way that people typically see fighters, particularly those that do MMA and the new world or this sort of renaissance that you guys are getting with data-driven interventions and stuff, and trying to prof- professionalize all of this. How are you finding managing the relationship between your team and the guys that you look after and the interventions that they want, and then the, uh, athletes', the fighters' coach, and the gym that they go back to, or the multiple gyms that they might go back to afterwards? They're gonna have their ideas around how they should be preparing, how they should be training, their loading, et cetera, et cetera. Um, talk to me about the tension between those.
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah. Uh, I think, yeah, you talk about tension. I think you gotta try and remove the tension. And that- that- that's any sport, right? And again, I draw on my experiences, and, um, it doesn't matter what sport you go into, it comes down to, you know, the maturity of people to handle data and handle information. Now, for some sports that have got, you know, a-... legacy and long term history of using wearable technology or handling data, looking at statistics and measuring that. You know, you take a sport like basketball, everything's built... or American football, everything's built around statistics. Baseball is probably the most classic one there. Um, so, so they're really comfortable in using and talking about numbers, and using numbers to direct strategy. Other sports might not necessarily be as mature in handling data and, and be comfortable with that type of information, mixed martial arts being one of them. So what we're trying to do is obviously elevate people's awareness and understanding of the types of information we're giving them. Um, you know, you can look to the recent kind of evolution of leg kicks, or low, low calf kicks in MMA, and how it's kind of revolutionizing our sport as something that's really pivoted the sport and taking it down a different direction. I mean, calf kicks have always been around, but they, they've not been used as much as they are now, and they, they're truly debilitating, right? So it's becoming a, a real tactic... an offensive tactic, but you've also gotta be defending against that. So, you know, out there in the community, the coaches are, are innovating at any moment in time, but what we're trying to do is, is kind of put evidence and evaluation against it to say, you know, how can we optimize it further? How can we give you competitive- that competitive advantage and try and come together and, and meet the rubber where, where it meets the road with the, the maturity of an athlete or a coach to handle information.
- 13:42 – 15:56
Confidentiality and neutrality: supporting both sides while protecting sensitive info
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. How do you deal with the fact that typically you have a strength and conditioning or a coaching unit that is looking after one team, and every athlete that works underneath them is being pushed forward, whereas you are doing opponent... uh, fighter and opponent.
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Now, obviously, there'll be securities around data and suchlike. It's not like you're gonna be telling each fighter what the other one's preparing and stuff like that. But, eh, that must be a very unique, uh, e- environment to work in, right? Where you are... l- like we said before, you win and lose every single fight that you've been involved in.
- DFDr Duncan French
Right. Yeah. I mean, we're agnostic to the whole roster, so you're absolutely right. Uh, you know, athlete... the, the, the model that we work to is that the UFC fighters are independent contractors, so we can't mandate that they engage with the Performance Institute and the services that we offer. Um, it's very much an à la carte, take it or leave it, pick what you want type approach, and obviously that drives individuality from the very get-go. Some athletes want all of our service provision, some athletes want nothing to do with us 'cause there's a lot of paranoia about what you're talking about in this question. Other athletes will pick and choose bits and pieces as and when they see fit. You know, if you've got a, uh, some kind of injury or historical injury that we're working and treating with you, you know, obvi- obviously your opponent w- doesn't... you know. Uh- uh that's, that information is sacrosanct. If your opponent was to find that out, that could truly change the, the likelihood of your success in the event. So yeah, we're very sensitive to how we handle information, how we d- handle data knowing that we've got this really kind of wild and unique business model that we work to, where we're potentially working with two fighters that are gonna compete in a month's time, um, and we're strategizing and working with their coaches, helping them on physical development, et cetera, et cetera. I think, you know, the, the thing that we do to distance ourselves completely for that is that we don't coach and teach technical and tactical work through the Performance Institute, which is obviously the secret sauce. Um, you know, the, the MMA techniques. What, what we do is obviously support them with, you know, nutrition and body composition, with diagnostics, with physical preparation, with mental preparation. All those supplementary factors aren't necessarily the true things which are gonna influence the outcome of the fight, which is technical, tactical work. So w- we kind of align ourselves to that, but we don't deliver that specifically.
- 15:56 – 19:25
What the PI tracks: training load, cognition, and head-impact technology
- CWChris Williamson
What are the primary metrics that you're looking at over the, uh, weeks and months? So my housemate has just been given a promotion at Newcastle Falcons. He's now the junior physio of the first team, uh, and i- since living with him for the last few years, I've been fascinated learning about chronic loads, uh, and, uh, yardage, and I got to see the back end of one of the spreadsheets that they have these readouts and it's just an endless-
- DFDr Duncan French
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... endless stream of data. Who got the, up to the maximum velocity this week, who's done the most yardage, all this stuff. So what's the equivalent in your world? What do you look at from the players?
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah, I... I mean, welcome to the world of, like, world-class or elite level sport right now. I mean, there, there's more data than we all know what to do with because ultimately technology has changed the game. Um, and as soon as you start wearing technology in competition, uh, and training and you're aggregating all this information, I mean, just, just kind of processing that in a team setting can, can be overwhelming. Um, but I think when we look at, you know, MMA, obviously we're, we're, we're tryna get to the same questions. We're tryna understand how you optimize training load, the exposure to a training stimulus to maximize the effect of that training stimulus. So how, how do we do that? How do we measure people's exposure? Um, what's the right expo- it's the Goldilocks effect, right? How much is too much? How much is too little? And, oh, Goldilocks, that's just right, exactly that's what we need to be. Um, there's a lot of research and literature out there that we know connection between the, the, the, the likelihood of injury or an in- injury incidence with overtraining versus undertraining versus, you know, where, where things sit. So that's an important conversation. But in the sport of MMA, it's a little bit different, right? Because, um, we don't have, um, really robust data insights around competition. Our fighters, it's not like they're wearing heart rate monitors, it's not like they're wearing GPS, it's not like they're wearing any kind of accelerometers or those types of things where we can really start to understand what competition is. We're kind of extrapolating a little bit and making insinuations based on what we... the data we can get in sparring or in training. So yeah, we look at training load, we look at, you know, vision assessments and, and reaction times. We look at cognitive function. Obviously, it's a, you know, a sport where you're getting hit in the head, so how do we monitor and manage those, those exposure loads, whether it's through instrumented mouthpieces that have accelerometers in them where we can look at head impacts, whether i-
- CWChris Williamson
No way. You can put something in the mouth that's going to measure everything?
- DFDr Duncan French
Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's, that's kinda the direction we're going now, and that-
- CWChris Williamson
That's wild.
- DFDr Duncan French
... that's kind of already li-... yeah, in, in, in rugby and Australian rules football, it's already happening a little bit. We're in- you know, we're pursuing that with MMA. Um, and then you've obviously got other factors like, um, you know, do you see strength, power, characteristics, heart rate for your conditioning? What's your training zone? What's your biological load with respect to lactate management? Things like that. So, I mean, listen, to answer the question, it's, it's a lot of different things. (laughs) Um, but for MMA, we still haven't nailed down what competition truly is so that we can reverse engineer everything from competition. So, that's the north star for us right now is working with different partners in technology and academics to say, "All right, how can we really nail down an understanding of what MMA is?" Um, because we haven't got those insights. And obviously, there's the striking components, but there's grappling components where you're not really moving too much, but there's a huge metabolic demand through isometric hold or isometric contraction that it's really hard to classify what that looks like in terms of ultimately the athletic load that you have to, uh, you know, form in the octagon.
- 19:25 – 21:27
Future tech: camera tracking, VR/AR, haptics, and reducing brain trauma
- CWChris Williamson
I went to this meet up that I said yesterday where I got accused of being an Australian-
- DFDr Duncan French
(laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
... and at it, I, uh, I met this guy who spends eight hours a day in virtual reality, so he's at the forefront of, of, um, like developing apps-
- DFDr Duncan French
Cool guy. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... and games. Yeah, he, he seemed to love it, but... Um, and he was telling me that there is, um, new VR technology that is able to track, uh, the body's position in space so that it can accurately represent it in the virtual reality world. I'm wondering whether you would be able to get to the stage in future where all of the different camera angles that you guys have around the octagon may be able to track stuff like trauma and movement, um, and then be able to reverse engineer that to actually be able to give you some sort of metrics. But the fact that you've got, whatever, a, uh, GPS mouthguard with an in-built HRV monitor or a heart rate sensor in it, that blows my mind. You could have something that you just knock into, knock into your mouth and it gives you all of those solutions is crazy.
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah, it's cool, right? And again, th- that's one piece of equipment and technology that they wear in training and competition, so, you know, that, that's, that's something that we're pursuing because it can be universal then. Um, but yeah, I mean, you talk about VR, like, anything that mitigates, you know, TBI or concussion or the risk of head trauma in our sport is gonna be beneficial and advantageous. Um, so we're, we're actively pursuing those types of things. Um, and yeah, VR, virtual reality, augmented reality in a combat environment along with haptic technology where you look at vibration, so, you know, it's coming out of the gaming world, you know, World of Warcraft or whatever, or Cards, you know, those type of things where you, you know, you're shooting your gun, but you're getting that feedback as well at the same time. How can we apply haptic technology in a, uh, augmented reality space where we're using VR and we're also getting haptic feedback to say you're suggested you're getting hit or, you know, a punch or something, but you're actually not? Um, you know, tho- those are the types of training strategies kind of moving into the future that we're also exploring.
- CWChris Williamson
Dude, this is year 3000 shit.
- DFDr Duncan French
(laughs) .
- 21:27 – 23:20
Psychedelics and neuroprotection: early exploration, big safety mandate
- CWChris Williamson
It's so advanced. Did I hear you once mention that you guys were looking at some of the potential impacts of psychedelics as a performance enhancer?
- DFDr Duncan French
Not as a performance enhancer, but around traumatic brain injury, um-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, so like as a neuroprotective type thing?
- DFDr Duncan French
... and again... Correct, yeah. A- a- and, you know, there, there's been some good work, particularly out of, um, John Hopkins University over in Maryland, um, where they're looking at, um, you know, less of, you know, ter- terminal illness and some patients with, you know, um, certain medical conditions that are gonna be terminal at some point. So, how do they use psychedelics to relieve pain or, or remove, um, you know... And, and again, in, in kind of combat populations where they looked at post-traumatic stress disorders and depression and some of these aspects on a very clinical level, how psychedelics are potentially, um, an opportunity to, to influence that. Again, it's very early days for the UFC, it's not something that we're completely, um, you know, running down this avenue right now. But again, looking at working with partners to cover every avenue to see where, yes, we know that we, we, we operate in a combat sport, right? There are certain, um, you know, issues and factors related to combat sport within the parameters about the rules of the sport where, yes, it's a, it's a collision and it's a contact sport. It's gonna lead to certain physical, um, psychological, social, emotional impacts that, um, might have a detrimental effect. So, whether it's a, um, a rule change, whether it's equipment that you wear, whether it's, um, interventions like psychedelics or like nutritional interventions or nootropics or whatever it may be, um, you know, I think we're just very engaged in trying to understand that and take them on so that we can do a better job of keeping our athletes in the, in the he- you know, in the most safe and, and healthy space possible.
- 23:20 – 29:06
Mental performance under fight-week chaos: mindfulness and signal vs noise
- CWChris Williamson
How much do you deal with the, um, psychological strain? So, I'm fascinated by the fact that you're asking your athletes... And this is the same with every fight sport. I mean, it's the same with every sport in general, but particularly with a fight sport where there's so much glory around success. There's so much, not shame around defeat, but you can see it in the player's body language or the fighter's body language right at the end of the fight. Plus, there is fight week leading up to it. There's press conferences, there's shit talking beforehand, there's weight cuts, there's... It's such a unique blend of psychological strain, which is precisely designed, at least by your opponent that way, right? To put you in a place where you're not actually all that confident. Um, how much have you looked at strategies for how the guys can deal with this? And are there any lessons that people could take away, uh, into their own lives for... in the build-up to a stressful situation or something that they're perhaps a little bit anxious about?
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah, that's a- that's a great question. Um, and again, listen, we're... remember, we're a promotion, right? Um, and these guys are independent, independent contractors, so they're in the business of promoting themselves to get, you know, people to buy tickets to come and watch them. So, whether it's shit talking or whether it's promotion, like, the- the- the- they're trying to sell the event and get people interested in their fight. Um, you know, y- you know, without letting you (laughs) behind the curtain too much, you know, some of that's obviously real, some of it's bravado. Um, but again, it makes for a (laughs) ... it makes for an interesting build-up to- to the fight itself. Um, yeah, I mean, from a psychological or sports psychology perspective, we're absolutely getting into that space because it's a, it's a pillar of performance. So, how do athletes manage that? How do they use it, um, to their advantage but how do they stay away from someone else, um, doing it? Um, and I think when, when we first started the Performance Institute back in 2017, we didn't have sports psychology as part of our portfolio of services. It's absolutely a critical core component now, and we offer that to, uh, to the athletes. Um, but yeah, I think, you know, to- to answer it succinctly, um, you know, we do a lot of work around kind of mindfulness and being able to disassociate from all that white noise and being able to internalize what is your game plan. You know that you've done the work, you know that you're technically and tactically proficient in what you need to do. So, how do you remove the white noise and pursue the signal of your mindfulness of being present in the moment? Now, pres- present in the moment in- in- in the UFC can be someone kind of seven seconds from choking you out. So, um, you know, you- you've still got to be mindful and present in that moment. But again, it comes down to, right, what's the technique? What's the tactic I need to actually execute to remove this choke? Um, there's so many pieces of white noise and- and chaos and- and- and, um, you know, so many factors. And I think, you know, to- to succinctly give you an answer, when we look at our psychologists and the way- work that they do, um, with our athletes, it's very much around being present and being mindful and being able to process things effectively. Otherwise it... tho- those external signals just overwhelm.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Yeah, it's, um... it's strange to think about the number of parameters that go into, uh, someone putting a good performance on in UFC. Like, it's so-
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... unbelievably intense to balance all of these different elements. And something that I've always thought about is the number of athletes out there i- in any domain who physically may have the character... physiologically may have the characteristics to make them an unbelievably elite athlete. They may have the approach to training, they might have the genetics, they might have the work rate, the conscientiousness, the industriousness, the support system, everything. However, they are unable to deal with the stress of game day. And I wonder how many athletes throughout the years have got themselves to the stage where they were... th- they could have been a- a world cha..., they could have been the greatest that ever lived, and they were let down by their inability to kind of get out of their own head and allow themselves to perform on game day.
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah. A- and, you know, the stakes are pretty high in this sport. This is, like I say, it's a sport of consequences, right? And- and the conseque... every sport has got consequences (laughs) , um, but in this sport, they can be pretty severe, right? Um, so that just layers on kind of the- the pressures and the stresses. And, uh, (laughs) yeah, we- we- we jest here at the PI, but we say, you know, it's... the MMA is 90% mental apart from the 60% that's physical. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's- it's just everything. Y- y- you need everything in this sport. And again, coming back to one of your earlier questions, like, it's really hard to... you know, there- there's so many variables, right? So, it's really hard to say one is any more important than the other. But when it comes to mental fortitude, and that's even before you get into competition, like the mental fortitude just to get through the rigors of training on a daily basis to, you know, hit- hit the mitts and then do your strength and conditioning work on the side. Like, just the mental fortitude to be compliant and- and, um, you know, adhere to a long-term approach to technical and tactical development as well as physical development, that alone is- is challenging in our sport. Now, you can liken that to things like, you know, rowing or- or rugby, kr-
- NANarrator
Mm.
- DFDr Duncan French
... codes or whatever it may be, whi- which are also very physical. But then, yeah, you layer on that psychological piece of you're walking into competition and there's millions watching on TV and you're potentially going to get knocked out and people are going to ridicule you and laugh at you whilst you're laying unconscious on your back.
- CWChris Williamson
Make memes about you on Twitter.
- DFDr Duncan French
Right. Which is- which is, you know, shocking. You know, these- these underpant, you know, internet warriors, um, w- it's easy to point fingers. So, you know, that- that's where I come back to like, our- our athletes are up there with- with the best of them when it comes to their ability to, um, to deal with all the variables that go into success. It's pretty cu... you know, it's truly a decathlon of combat sport and it's pretty crazy.
- 29:06 – 32:40
Brutality comparisons: rowing, extreme grappling endurance, and respect for fighters
- CWChris Williamson
Have you worked with rowing?
- DFDr Duncan French
I have, yeah, a lot.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, uh, one of the things I think about there is the... I- I've done 2K row time tests before and the state of arousal that I get myself or fear, basically, that I get myself-
- DFDr Duncan French
(laughs) . Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... into before having, before having to do that. Um, what were some of the lessons that you got out of the time that you worked with rowers? Because, you know, there's some of the events that they do which are... and- and some of the training sessions that I've-
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I always find the, um, Oxford-Cambridge rowing event, the lead up to that, you know, where they go through the training montages and they explain what everyone's going through, it looks up there with some of the most brutal training protocols that I've ever seen. Is that... is that what it's actually like?
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, rowing can be... yeah. The- the- the- the physical demands of elite level rowing, um, and- and the physical and physiological adaptations that you're trying to make to your body in training, uh, are massive, right? So yeah, those guys push themselves to the absolute limit, you know, then... and I've been around some of those sessions and it's just terrifying and brutal to watch. You know, someone's not kind of stomping on your head then or someone's not gonna come and try to truly knock you out. Um-Like I say, it's- it's a- a- and I'm not playing down (laughs) kinda rowing or anything, or any other sport, I'm just saying, I think when you look at all the respective factors, and the outcome of our sport, what people are trying to do to you, in- inflict physical damage to you, as well, um, it just makes, it- it just layers on another kind of, level of intensity. I'm not using that as a physical intensity, I'm just like, intensity of everything, 'cause yeah, rowing- rowing is, the training for rowing, to be an elite level rower is- is brutal. Um, but yeah, these guys are doing it, and- and that, and they've got this
- CWChris Williamson
A 2K- a 2K road test with someone trying to punch you in the face while you do it.
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah.
- DFDr Duncan French
Just constantly. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
I have, um, so I met a couple of guys who were recently on a reality TV program for a grappling, an upcoming grappling competition that was going on. And it was kind of like a- an Ultimate Fighter-style thing, so living in a fight house, and they were going out and doing their whatever, and they were playing pranks on each other, or- i- in between and stuff like that. And they had, in order to get through to one of the next rounds, they had a no-time-limit, uh, grappling-
- DFDr Duncan French
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... event. Which I- I re- I had never heard of before, but isn't unbelievably rare, apparently, in- in that world. And, um, one of the fights that the- the dude that was traveling to this event in San Antonio with us had, lasted for three hours and 55 minutes of grappling.
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah. Yeah, I mean-
- CWChris Williamson
Three hours and 55 minutes of- of grappling.
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah, think about that. (laughs) Think- think about that. I mean, just processing that is- is ridiculous, right? You're essentially, um, you know, grappling and trying to, you know, submit or choke out an opponent, the same duration it takes someone to run a marathon. Do you know what I mean? It- it- it's just un- almost unfathomable. But that's what these guys will do. Um, and the warrior spirit will, you know, will take them through that.
- CWChris Williamson
Dude, it's- it's unbelievable. I, um, I was really, really impressed. But it's one of those things where you realize just how big of a delta there is between y- everybody sits on the sidelines and talks about like, "Oh, well, you know, it'd be- it'd be- he should slip that punch and he should do this in a different way," 'cause everybody feels like they have some sort of five pence to add into the discussion around things. Then you realize, there is- i- it's a different universe. These people are the- they're completely different animals. So speaking of that, are there some fighters that you've
- 32:40 – 35:16
Coaching the ‘warrior’ personality: eager learners, overtraining risk, and mindset lessons
- CWChris Williamson
worked with or that you've seen in the Performance Institute, either sort of current roster or previous roster, that are just a- a total joy to coach, or people that have come in with a- a very particular, um, physiology that you've found that's- that's unique or different or impressive, that you hadn't seen previously?
- DFDr Duncan French
Um, I mean, uh, uh, talking in g- well, I'll answer your question. Yeah, yes, it's funny, right, because, um, I've worked with all these different sports, but, you know, there- there's one thing which the armchair expert always knows, and that's fighting and nutrition, right? And here we are, I'm working in a sport where there's, and the same thing, everyone seems to be an expert in how you win a fight, do you know what I mean? So it's like, the- there's a lot of- there's a lot of noise and a lot of opinion in this-
- CWChris Williamson
Pro science.
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah, in this world. Um, but you know, you cut through that. Uh, I think, like I say, I come back to the clientele, the athlete population, like th- the- the- in my experience, you know, th- whilst there's different polarizing characters in our sport, talking generically, like th- this is a group of athletes that I just love working with, that are like, th- they wanna get after it, they wanna do the work, they're not scared of the work, they are committed to, you know, the cause and to the arts and all that type of stuff. And, um, yeah, I mean, a- absolute pleasure to work with. Of course they've got quirks and traits, you're like, "Come on, mate, that's not what the fuck you're doing. That like, why are you doing that?" But, I mean at the end of the day, as a group of athletes, I- I would work with combat athletes any day of the week. When I've looked at some of my other athletes, and again, whether it's, you know, Premier League soccer or, you know, where athletes position in the pecking order and the hierarchy of things, but combat athletes are absolute joy and pleasure to work with. Um, certainly on the physical preparation side, because you're not having to convince them to do the work usually, um, y- you're pulling the horses back and saying, you know, "W- hold on," like, "Enough is enough." Like, "Let's- let's, uh, just think about this strategically." So, um, yeah, I mean, I- I- I don't wanna mention any particular names, but there's, uh, there's lots of individuals on our roster who, um, like absolute warriors, true first-class people, whether they've come from Olympic backgrounds through freestyle wrestling in the Olympic games, or whether they've come through collegiate programs, or whether they're talent transfers from football, like American football, um, or whether they're just guys who have been on the fight circuit and journeymen that have been knocking people out, you know, for year over year and just like, okay, this is a guy that might not be the best athlete, but-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DFDr Duncan French
... is just a hard individual and a hard human being and just, even those guys, like great to be around, 'cause you can learn so much from their- their mindset and their mentality about how they approach life, right? It's fascinating.
- 35:16 – 38:12
Hypertrophy science (and why fighters rarely chase it): volume, eccentrics, metabolic stress
- CWChris Williamson
So, going into some of the training protocols and stuff that you use, that people at home may be able to take on, I know that you've done a lot of research around optimal reps, set ranges, rest periods, in order to maximize muscle growth and hypertrophy. What have you come to- what sort of conclusion have you come to at the moment with that?
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah, I mean, the irony is that, um, we don't pursue a lot of hypertrophy, um, training techniques in combat athletes, 'cause usually they're having to make weight. Um, so, you know, we're not trying to put excessive amounts of muscle on a- on an athlete. In- in the rare chance we do, if someone moves up a weight class or if someone's kind of still, you know, chronically underfueled or whatever it may be, um, we- we try and pursue some of those types of things. But yeah, I mean, I think the key things to hypertrophy are obviously, you know, looking at muscle damage, how you ensue muscle damage. You're kind of the three pillars of hypertrophy. Um, so using different training, uh, approaches, whether it be cluster sets, whether it be drop sets, whether it be pause reps, whether it be eccentrics, accentuated eccentrics, whatever, there's a different way to do that. So there's no, like, perfect method for creating hypertrophy. But, you know, looking at time under tension is a volume conversation. It's- it's how much ten- tension can you put through a muscle within a working set, so, you know, larger rep ranges and set ranges, obviously, or the number of times within a week.... so kind of looking at, um, you know, 12 to 30 sets for a given muscle group in a training week is where you're trying to pursue hypertrophy. Um, looking at how you damage tissue, because then it can regrow and redevelop at- at- at, you know, to a greater level, um, so rebuild larger, so how do you use techniques like eccentrics, um, that are gonna promote some tissue damage to allow it to then regenerate and recover, um-
- CWChris Williamson
When you say, when you say eccentrics, are you talking about tempo movements basically there?
- DFDr Duncan French
Correct, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Slo- you know, slow eccentrics, so concentric shortening actions versus eccentric lengthening actions, which we know damage the muscle more. And then also creating a metabolic stimulus, like what's the internal environment? Whether it's nitric oxide that you're trying to release, and that's where some of this, uh, you know, blood flow restriction is now quite vogue in- in hypertrophy training. You know, that's just trying to create a metabolic stress inside the cell. And then obviously, the critical thing in parallel to those three factors is nutrition, is protein and protein synthesis, and looking at, um, you know, the- the- the protein synthetic rate of- of muscle, how- how muscle can turn over protein, and are you fueling your bu- excuse me, w- wrong term, are you providing kind of the- the building blocks, um, and usually that is l- leucine is- is the key amino acid, um, for muscle growth and muscle hypertrophy that we need to think about. Um, but are you kind of putting your nutrition strategy in a very complementary fashion with the training strategy and a training stimulus that is gonna affect those three factors?
- 38:12 – 40:47
Nutrient timing and the ‘bros were right’: post-training protein and evidence vs practice
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. What are the big mistakes that people are making when it comes to that sort of, uh, peri-training nutrition strategy?
- DFDr Duncan French
Well, I think a lot of the- the science, a lot of the research obviously is around nutrient timing, um, and, you know, I think particularly around a, uh, around a training session, you tr- you need to get the protein in as close to the cessation of, uh, of the end of your- your- your workout as possible, all right? Because that's when the, you know, protein synthetic rate is gonna be at its highest, um, and the resynthesis of protein and the rebuilding of the amino acids is gonna be at its highest level. So, providing those building blocks through a nutrition intervention is gonna be critical. If you leave it too long, obviously you're just, um, negating or mitigating the extent of protein synthesis that's gonna happen. So, that's kind of the key thing, um, and yeah, anywhere between kind of 0.25 to 0.3 of a gram per kilo of body weight per day is, um, is what you're looking at from a protein stimulus or a protein intake for, uh, hypertrophy strategies.
- CWChris Williamson
0.25 to 0.3 of a gram-
- DFDr Duncan French
Sure.
- CWChris Williamson
... per kilo of body weight post w- is that just around the workout?
- DFDr Duncan French
Per day.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I'm trying to work out, 'cause th- surely that would be, whatever, 40 grams or 30 grams of protein per day?
- DFDr Duncan French
Correct.
- CWChris Williamson
But that's not total intake?
- DFDr Duncan French
No, no, not total intake.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- DFDr Duncan French
In- in terms of supplementary protein.
- CWChris Williamson
Right, okay, yeah. It's so inter- it's so funny that there was that sort of back in the day, the- the bro science around well, you need to get your post-workout shake in as quickly after a training session as possible, and then, again, th- you're- you're talking to people that get their information from bodybuilding.com forums, right, and, like, meme pages from Reddit and stuff like that. But, uh, that was something that was, I think about five years ago, very widely dispelled as if it fits your macros, it doesn't really matter, calories are calories, and then when we actually go and speak to somebody that's at the cutting edge of elite sport, it turns out that well, maybe the- the bros in the beginning were right all along.
- DFDr Duncan French
Evidence-based research and research-based evidence, right? And I think it's, it, you know, uh, a lot of sports techniques and sports training have been built on anecdotal insights and people trying out techniques, and then, you know, the science has followed and put efficacy against some of those, some of those, uh, original methods. And clearly, it's also, um, you know, made other approaches and other methods less than efficacious, and they've been kind of phased out. So, uh, yeah, it's, what- what's leading the narrative, the science or the practice, is always a g- the question.
- 40:47 – 46:34
Hormones, programming, and a brutal protocol: 6×10 with drop sets and short rest
- CWChris Williamson
Talking about something that I never ever considered, uh, during training, because it's just, it- it felt like something that was too complex and too sort of forward-thinking about the hormone release effect that you get from different types of training stimulus, and let's say that it's for somebody that's just trying to keep themselves fit and look good and, you know, be healthy and maybe gain a little bit of muscle and keep themselves at whatever body fat level or perhaps even try and recomp a little bit, um, I'd never considered the impact of different training methodologies on the hormone profile that's going into my body. You hear about the fact that you get growth hormone release from heavy compound movements, and you get testosterone release from such and such. What is, for the normal layperson that's just looking to train, what are the things that they should consider when it comes to optimizing, uh, hormone release through their training methodology?
- DFDr Duncan French
Well, I mean, I think it, it's- it's important to understand, like, th- this metabolic stimulus, right? As we've talked about time under tension, we've talked about muscle damage, and then obviously the metabolic stimulus, the metabolic environment that's created within the muscle. So, you know, this is what my PhD work was around, so, um, you know, this is where kind of some of my messaging has come thr- from in this space. Um, but yeah, a- again, it comes back to how you stimulate intensities of, or- or volumes of workload to create that metabolic stimulus, of which a, uh, endocrine cascade is part of the- the equation. It's not the whole equation, obviously. Um, but there is potentially-
- CWChris Williamson
What do you mean when you say endocrine cascade?
- DFDr Duncan French
Well, just the release of hormones consequent to, uh, consequent to, you know, muscle stimulus or metabolic mode. Um, so how do the hormones (...) certain types of stimulus? If you do a, a, uh, training, um, program that is, you know, five sets of two with three minutes in between each set, it's gonna be a very dif- different metabolic stimulus to, um, four sets of 12 with, uh, 60 seconds rest between, right? So th- you know, that- that- that's the- the challenge of training and training strategies, understanding, um, what is it of those three factors that you're trying to stimulate? Um...... and think metabolic stimulus and, you know, hormonal responses is, is a part of that conversation. So, um, when you're trying to maximize hypertrophy and you're trying to maximize those three particular factors, um, then potentially there's some, uh, some legs to consider in what you do to stimulate hormone release as well.
- CWChris Williamson
So, you're looking at intensity as one of the key factors for this?
- DFDr Duncan French
Yes, intensity and volume. Yeah, intensity and volume. Because again, if you look at s- t- training intensity and how hard you're pushing a muscle or the contractual units of a- of- of y- of the muscle, um, that's gonna have a certain stimulus. You know, you can play on that, those two factors by creating training strategies by the, um, b- be different workouts within a given week or within a specific workout where you're targeting those two things at the same time. Again, the, the end point is that you're trying to stimulate a stress response, um, that might have or will have kind of some beneficial effects, um, to promote muscle growth, uh, within the cell.
- CWChris Williamson
I've heard you say, is it six sets of 10 at 80% with a couple of minutes rest in between is one of the protocols that you use?
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah, I mean, that was very much from my PhD, um, research. Yeah, six sets of 10, um, with, uh, s- with a, with a minutes rest in between, but ultimately-
- CWChris Williamson
One minute rest?
- DFDr Duncan French
Sorry, uh, 90 seconds in between. Excuse me, 90 seconds in between. Um, but do that as drop sets, so you're always trying to retain the... You start at a load of 80% of your 1RM, but the key thing is to hit the 10 repetition, um, requirement of each set. So you essentially can do a drop set, so, so that you can un- take the loads. Um, you might not be able to complete the set of 10, you rack it, you immediately unload, and you finish off the remaining repetitions to complete your 10 sets. So yeah, it's a pretty challenging a- and brutal approach to-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DFDr Duncan French
... uh, a training stimulus.
- CWChris Williamson
It's fucking absolutely possessed. Like it's a, it does... I can't think of a more disgusting training pro- 'cause what I hadn't heard the first time that I heard you say that, I hadn't heard about the, the s- stripping of weights, either like intra-set or across sets. Um, so I'm thinking, "Who can do six by 10 at 80%? Who can do 10-"
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah, no.
- CWChris Williamson
"... who can do 1 by 10 at 80%?" Um, with, especially with the short rest.
- DFDr Duncan French
Well, norm- norm- normally you get two s- two sets out, um, a- a- and 80% or so. But then yeah, uh, the, in the, into the potentially second, or third, or beyond sets, you, you're really starting to strip the bar back. Because then, again, like I say, that's now becomes the, the volume conversation. It's about using the drop sets of the load to complete the, the r- required volume.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, am I guessing that if you were to do an RPE, you'd be looking at like an RPE 9.5 by the end of each set?
- DFDr Duncan French
(laughs) I mean, yeah, I mean
- NANarrator
ultimately-
- CWChris Williamson
Because it can't be a 10, or else you're not going to have made... Oh well, I guess it would be a 10, but you're not going to have gone above a 10 'cause ors- otherwise you wouldn't have made those, the repetitions.
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Right?
- DFDr Duncan French
I mean, a 10 on an RPE scale is maximal, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- DFDr Duncan French
So you would want maximum because if you only do four repetitions, you unload, you might get another two repetitions out, you unload again, you might get your n- another three repeti- Like, that's how you're working the, the stimulus, right? So, it's always trying to be maximal in, in nature.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. And with this, did you find that certain exercises engendered themselves to better hormone release? I'm gonna guess larger movements, more muscle groups being recruited.
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah, that's-
- CWChris Williamson
What were the best exercises?
- DFDr Duncan French
I think that's the secret to all, like hypertrophy type approaches is that, yeah, multi- l- large compound exercises and more muscle activation.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, yes. I mean, well, (sighs) I might, I might see if some of the lads in the gym fancy doing it tomorrow, but I, I, it, it's-
- 46:34 – 50:21
How much can fighters train? Units per week, quality vs quantity, and lifestyle constraints
- CWChris Williamson
They're gonna take a little bit of con- I'll get them to listen to this first and I'll tell them about your credentials and we'll see, we'll see what they can say. Talking about recovery between sessions and especially with your guys, right, because you've got so many different domains that the fighters need to be able to move through. It's not just technique stuff, it's not just strength and conditioning, it's not just the cardio, all of these different bits and pieces. What have you found is an upper bound that you can get... E- e- say, the average elite fighter. I'm aware that that person doesn't particularly exist. Um, what's the upper bound in terms of the training volume, you know, duration per day that you can get people through?
- DFDr Duncan French
Uh, I mean, and I'll say it a little bit differently, uh, I, I mean, we, we recommend kind of anywhere between 10 and 14 training units a week, um, but there's guys that are absolutely doing upwards of 18 to 20 training units a week. Um, you know, there's, there's a, there's a conversation on quality, right? It's a quality and quantity conversation. Um, some, uh, you know, some sessions, you know, are gonna be 60 to 90 minutes long, but there's also fighters that'll pull three-hour-long training sessions and think, you know, don't think twice about it. So it's, uh... That's where we don't have the answers right now. We don't understand kind of what is the true optimal level, what's the true, um, you know, the true standard approach that, that we put in place, um, and we're still trying to figure that out through kinda monitoring and evaluating training kind of loads and people's ability to tolerate that.
- CWChris Williamson
I've got a bunch of friends who are chasing for a CrossFit Games or a CrossFit Regionals spot at the moment, and I think that there are some similarities probably between your guys' sports, just that they're, uh, very wide in terms of the different domains and the different stimuluses that you're trying to get out of, uh, all of the different training protocols that people do. And they're, you know, "I'll say, 'Hey man, send me...'" 'Cause I just like to be a, a sort of a, a voyeuristic, uh, torturer, and I'll say, "But send me what your training week looks like." And you see it's up at 7:00 AM for a hour and a half swim, it's back, "I'll go- I'll have a nap until the morning time, I'll do some strength work and maybe some monostructural work, then I'll go back, have some more food, then I'll go..." And you're thinking like this is, you know, multiple days per week, and their active recovery days look like-... just a slightly lower intensity version of a longer workout that I might try and do. And, um, yeah, it's-
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah, I mean if you think of something like, if you think of something like CrossFit, which has got, you know, potentially many different components to it, whether you're working on your strength or your Olympic lifts or whether you're working on handstand walks or, you know, swimming, you know, they'll bring swimming into the CrossFit ƒ games ƒ (laughs) . So, you don't, you don't know what's going to happen in the CrossFit games, right? So you're, you're always preparing for the unknown by just ticking every single box. That's the same as MMA. You've got lots of different variables that you need to kind of complete the training exposure in. Um, so how do you distribute that? Um, you're either stacking sessions on top of each other and making very long sessions and then having more prolonged, you know, rest periods, or you're doing, you know, distributing of training blocks throughout the day in a very sporadic nature to try and, um, capture some recovery after each workout. It's- it's, you know, again, it's, we- we don't really have that figured out in its entirety right now.
- CWChris Williamson
A lot of that down to personal preference at the moment?
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And also, you know, the- the personal lifestyles of the- of the fighter, you know, are they (laughs) a night owl or a morning owl?
- CWChris Williamson
You've got to pick the kids up from- from school or something like that, yeah.
- DFDr Duncan French
Right. So, some fighters have full time jobs as pipe layers or electricians or whatever as well as doing all the training, you know. Demetrious Johnson, who was obviously, uh, you know, 125 in the UFC for a long time, now fights in a different organization, but, uh, he, you know, he holds the record for the most defenses in 125. He was, um, a full-time, um, contractor, you know, builder, and- and worked on a building site whilst at the same time doing his, uh, his MMA training, so...
- 50:21 – 1:00:24
What separates champions: repeatable high-level training, motivation diversity, and X-factors
- CWChris Williamson
What would you say, if you were to try and characterize some of the attributes between the guys that join the UFC who are, you know, obviously elite fighters, they've managed to get themselves an invite into the organization, um, and the difference between the ones that come and go, uh, and are unable to have that longevity, uh, and unable to- unable to really make it to the act- absolute elite of the sport and become, not necessarily champions because that's beyond just, uh, their own internal training and a- approach to the sport, but between those guys and between the guys that do make it to the absolute top and then also have the longevity as well, in terms of characteristics, their approach to whatever it be, maybe training, coaching, all that sort of stuff?
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah, I mean, I think as well, as well, if you're in the UFC, you're not training harder than anybody else. Ev- everybody trains hard in this sport, right? I think if you look at the true elite guys, what they have the ability to do is get back on the mats every single day. So, the- the thing that differentiates the people at the top versus everybody else is their ability to truly train at the highest, highest level from a technical, tactical perspective day after day after day after day, uh, th- you know, for chronic periods of time, whereas everyone else might, you know, reduce their training capabilities and then rebound a little bit. Um, d- still training hard obviously, but I think that's one thing which we look to in- in our kind of conversations here, is something that truly is- is differentiating the top guys. Just their ability to go again and again and again on a daily basis, or session to session, such that the technical input to their training and their skill development is that much greater than everybody else's.
- CWChris Williamson
Have you had a look at motivation thr- from what you guys do?
- DFDr Duncan French
I mean, we're get- we're getting into that a little bit. Early days, if I'm honest. Yeah, we, a- and again, people are very motivated for different reasons to be fighters, right? So, you know, we all think that, you know, there- there're people that just want to, um, you know, beat up other folk. Uh, but that's not always the case. You know, some people are using it as a very meditative type approach to, like, what, l- what, you know, physical pain and trauma allows them to release themselves. Other people are coming at it because, you know, they just love their martial arts and they're- they're lifelong martial artists. Other people are coming at it from, um, you know, just financials and "I'm just providing money for my kids," right? So, I think the motivation, again, is very, very complex, um, and- and we haven't... We- we're starting to look into that, but we haven't got that, you know... It- it's so diverse in the way people arrive at success in our sport.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, it's a, a question that I think a lot of other people want to have answered as well, let alone just UFC fighters, and it is interesting to think about the fact that a lot of different athletes can arrive in the same sport at the absolute elite of it and yet be driven by completely different things, that you-
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... and me can both be fighting in the UFC and you're doing it because you just love to scrap and that's what you always did and that's your passion, and I'm doing it because it's a meditative experience, and the next person that we're going to fight is doing it because he wants to provide for his family or whatever.
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah, uh, uh, absolutely, and I think, you know, it's another reason to be fascinated by our sport. Like, the diversity and the- the, just the- the different variables that come into what makes, uh, you know... To define what a world champion is in mixed martial arts is like throwing mud at a wall and seeing what sticks, because, you know, you could have, like, truly world-class athletes that are coming out of Olympic programs or whatever. You could have a guy that's just been around the streets, you know, like knocking people out for a long time and has elevated to the, to the top of small-level promotions through to, you know, kids today, uh, 18 years old are training MMA from the get-go, um, so they're just, "I'm a mixed martial artist" rather "No, I'm a kickboxer," or "I'm a wrestler." It, that- that's kind of the cool part of it, is just the diversity and, um, the complexity of people's backgrounds and how do you say that this one route is any better than someone else's route to the top, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
Have you got any idea, I think about this a lot to do with CrossFit 'cause it's the sport that I'm most familiar with recently, but previously you had CrossFitters like Matt Fraser, most dominant CrossFitter, basically ever, he came into the sport from weightlifting. Uh, so you have-
- DFDr Duncan French
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... people that did, uh, analogous-... sports transferred across, still had an unbelievable specialty within their, their original domain, but then-
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... broadened themselves out. And what you've identified here is that you have an equivalent with regards to MMA. Previously, people would have perhaps come from a very specialized background, bu- be that wrestling, or karate, or boxing, or Muay Thai, and now you're gonna have people that are born and bred from the very, very beginning MMA fighters. Do you have any sense, or have you... Uh, do, do you find it particularly interesting, that? And then, also, have you got any sense around whether it is optimal to not specialize in one particular domain versus to become a generalist from the very beginning? Have you, have you thought about this?
- DFDr Duncan French
Well, I think, uh, you know, if you look at, um, the statistics of our sport, I think we... You know, last time... Uh, I need to... uh, this isn't an accurate number, so don't hold me to this. But last time I looked, we had about 87 different UFC champions in history and something like 53 of them were from defined specialisms, right? Whether they are wrestlers, or jujitsu players, or a kickboxer. Um, those numbers obviously changed now. There's, kind of, a couple of years since I saw those numbers. I just need to update those. But, um, I think if you look at where the UFC has come from and look at it as a whole, then yeah, you can still say that there isn't a true generalist that's rising to the top. It's still a sport that is built on specialisms, and usually those specialisms are your X factor. So, if we take Israel Adesanya right now, obviously he's, he's much reported as the best striker ever in the UFC, right? He's a clear kickboxer. Um, Glover Teixeira, obviously 40 years old and he's got to the top to be a world champion as a jujitsu guy, right? Um, so, you know, there's still people that you can say, "Well, that, that's a specialist." Um, but I think if you compartmentalize, let's say, the last three years, or the last five years of our sport, then you can start to see where... All right, that guy has come through purely an MMA training approach to, to success in our sport. Because again, it's become more popular as a sport, it's defined as an individual sport, it's not come from all the individual, um, styles themselves, so people just train in MMA now. Um, so that yeah, if you look at the history, it still leans towards specialisms, but if you look at more current day and you compartmentalize some of the more recent success, um, you know, it's probably 50/50 is where the specialists are to where the, uh, the generic fighters or generalists are.
- CWChris Williamson
One thing that's interesting, a difference between CrossFit and MMA that I've just thought of there, in CrossFit your, your actual goal is to try and be just, uh, good at everything. The goal is to not lose any of the events. That's the way that you win. The way that you win is to be, whatever, top five to top 10 in every single different event. Whereas in MMA, the goal is to be acceptable across everything so that you don't have any weaknesses, and then to be able to peak within one particular domain that gives you a- an outsized ability to finish the fight, right? You're not going to win... You're, you're going to be at more of a vulnerability if you are good at absolutely everything up against a fighter that's acceptable at everything and can push back most of your advances but has one absolute freak dimension to their game.
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah, I mean, you, you can lose the Olympic Games in the decathlon by having a crappy javelin, right? And if you can't throw the javelin very far, you're gonna be great at everything else, but that javelin is gonna be the one reason why you lose a gold medal or even drop out of the medals. Same in our, in our sport, right? If you can't compete off your back in jujitsu and someone takes you to the ground, like, game over. You know, you have to have a level of generalism to be able to survive, right? Because the fight can go to anywhere. It can go against the fence, it can go to the ground, it can be stand-up in the middle of octagon. You know, you can be in the clinch, you can be, you know, a distance, whatever. So, you know, you have to have some awareness of all of those different types of things. But yes, clearly people have got to the UFC because they have an X factor, something that is, like, outstanding. Now, whether that is your takedown defense, whether it's your takedown offense, whether it's your striking, whether it's your grappling, whatever, there's something that is just getting you to the top which you will need to maximize that potential, and that's an X factor which becomes a competitive advantage. So philosophically, that's how we try and approach our, excuse me, our programming, is that ultimately when you're off camp, when you're not in fight camp preparation, we tailor all of our energies and our efforts to l- mi- minimizing your limitations. Essentially, to raising the lowest hanging fruit, like what, like what are the things that potentially will lose you the fight? When we move into fight camp and now it's peaking, tapering and, and optimizing your potential for success, we are sharpening the sword of your, like, your, your X factors. So we, we, we pursue a, uh, a, a strengths kind of strategy. What are your strengths and what are your weaknesses, and when do we target those in the, in the distribution of your training plan?
- CWChris Williamson
Dude, it's so fascinating to, to see a sport that didn't exist, what, 30 years ago? 30... Like, 31-
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... 32 years ago. It literally didn't exist. And now where you guys are taking it to is amazing.
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah. No, it's, it's cool. It's cool to be around. Like I said, we're- w- it's 30 years as a professional sport in 2023, so next year. Um, and I still think, you know, there's massive growth opportunities and learnings and professionalization of the sport and, you know, it's taking it to the next level that is, uh... It's, it's, it's a great sport to be around right now. It's, uh, it's, it's still growing and still improving.
- 1:00:24 – 1:01:50
Where to learn more: UFC PI journal and recommended S&C voices
- CWChris Williamson
If there's someone who has found the stuff that we're talking about here particularly interesting, what are some of your favorite resources to keep up to date with work that's in your region, that's in strength and conditioning, hypertrophy? You know, like good accessible places that people can read?
- DFDr Duncan French
Yeah, I mean if there's any interest in, uh, you know, MMA and then the UFC, the UFC Performance Institute has released a, a digital journal which can be downloaded. Um, that, that's... There's a link for that on our, um, Instagram pages and Twitter pages and things like that. Um, again, if you can't navigate that, just reach out through those channels and we'll, I'll let you know. Um, but again, I think, um, you know, just looking at, um, you know, who, who, who are the, who are the players, who, who's making movements in, uh, in the world of strength and conditioning right now? You know, there's, there's some, some great people out there. Phil Daru's doing some good stuff. Obviously, um, Joe DeFranco has been doing it for a long time. Others... You know. So it, it depends where you're coming from and what you're trying to achieve, um, whether it's MMA-specific or whether it's more generic training.
- CWChris Williamson
Cheers. Duncan, thank you so much for your day, mate.
- DFDr Duncan French
No worries. Thanks for the chat.
- CWChris Williamson
What's happening, people? Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe. Peace.
Episode duration: 1:01:50
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