The UFC's Cutting-Edge Strength Training - Dr Duncan French

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   ... being able to…

   1. DFDr Duncan French0:00

      ... being able to internalize, what is your game plan? You know that you've done the work, you know that you're technically and tactically proficient in what you need to do, so how do you remove the white noise and pursue the signal of your mindfulness of being present in the moment? MMA is 90% mental, apart from the 60% that's physical.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:20

      Dr. Duncan French, welcome to the show.

   3. DFDr Duncan French0:23

      Hi, mate. How are you doing? Good to hear from you.

   4. CWChris Williamson0:25

      I know. It's nice to hear a familiar Northeastern voice while we're over in-

   5. DFDr Duncan French0:30

      I know.

   6. CWChris Williamson0:30

      ... the States.

   7. DFDr Duncan French0:31

      I know, right? It's, uh, there's nothing like home when it comes down to it. Actually-

   8. CWChris Williamson0:35

      Harrogate for you, right?

   9. DFDr Duncan French0:37

      Originally North Yorkshire, yeah, Harrogate, Knaresborough region, and then, uh, moved to Newcastle for college and, uh, I kind of call Newcastle home now.

   10. CWChris Williamson0:44

       Wow.

   11. DFDr Duncan French0:44

       I'm an ados- adopted Geordie, let's say.

   12. CWChris Williamson0:46

       Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the number of times that I get accused of being Australian while I'm over here, I was at a big meetup yesterday and I got accused of being Australian more times than I got accused of being British. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not.

   13. DFDr Duncan French0:59

       Oh, mate, I get, uh, I, I mean, what? I'm in my fifth year, well, four years for my PhD, and then now five years since I came back to the States. I get everything from South African, to Australian, to New Zealand, to Arkansas, you name it. (laughs)

   14. CWChris Williamson1:11

       Wow. So you've been working with, is it over 30 professional or Olympic sports since you started?

   15. DFDr Duncan French1:18

       Yeah, I think 37, I think, was the last time I counted. So yeah, been, uh, been blessed. It's been good. Lots of, uh, lots of variety and lots of opportunity. But yeah, whether it's, you know, pro sport or the Olympic movement, um, I've, uh, I've been around the block, let's say. (laughs)

   16. CWChris Williamson1:32

       And it was three full Olympic cycles with Team GB as well?

   17. DFDr Duncan French1:38

       Yeah, through the English Institute of Sport, which is obviously the high performance service provider to British Olympic programs, um, as well as Commonwealth programs like netball and things like that. But, um, I was a, a strength and conditioning coach and, you know, sports scientist through the, through the, um, the English Institute for about 14 years. So, as you say, a variety of different, um, sporting backgrounds. So it's been, it's been cool, cool ride right to now.

   18. CWChris Williamson2:03

       What's the common thread between all of those? Have you moved into specialties since you've been there? Was it always strength and conditioning? Was it performance?

   19. DFDr Duncan French2:12

       Yeah, no, I mean, I've always been a, a strength and conditioning physical preparation coach. You know, that's, that's kind of what I would call my, you know, my, my primary area of expertise. Um, you know, with, with some sport science weaved into there. You know, I, I, uh, my degrees and things, PhDs are in sport science, um, but I certainly went round the coaching route, um, and then, uh, could call upon my strength and conditioning and, uh, my sport science throughout that. So, um, yeah, it's, uh, let's say many, many hats, many, uh, many strings to the bow when you need it, you know, that's kind of part of the deal.

   20. CWChris Williamson2:45

       So given the fact that you've had over 30 sports that you've worked with, and then you've stepped into the UFC, what is particularly unique about the athletes that you work with there? You've got this broad base of experience in the past, but now you're working with a very, uh, broad-ranging sport. What's different about the guys that you work with, their preparation, their training?

   21. DFDr Duncan French3:04

       Yeah, I mean, listen, every sport's got its own culture, um, and, and things that you really resonate to and things that you're like, "Whoa, why are they doing it like that?" You know? And, um, you kind of question some of the behaviors. But, you know, I think I'm not bold enough to say, you know, the success is because of me. It's, it's, i- you know, hopefully I play, or, or my t- the teams that I'm involved with play a role in that. You know, athletes are successful before, um, you know, the service providers come online, and they'll be successful long after we're gone. I think, you know, when you look at all the different sports, they all come with different cultural approaches and different kind of dogmatic mindsets in, in what is good and what is bad. Um, you know, I'm blessed right now to work with combat athletes and, and obviously MMA fighters here in the UFC. And, uh, I think this is the one sport in, in all of my career where the challenges and the different, um, variables that go into success are so complex. Um, you know, th- this, this community, this group of athletes are, you know, they wanna win. And, um, you, you can harness that motivation and that energy. And, um, I think that's one thing which really differentiates combat athletes, is just the commitment to the grind. Um, any, any elite athlete at the highest level is doing things that are, you know, are different to the normal Joe Blow walking down the street, right? But I think when you look at the rigors of what MMA is and what these guys go through on a day-to-day basis, it, it truly has a lot to behold. And I think that's, that's what's fascinating about this community, you know? They are spitting sawdust and, and pretty honest as the day is long, but they are, you know, their, their, their commitment and their dedication to their craft and their ethic is, uh, is, uh, is, is unfoundering. It's amazing.

   22. CWChris Williamson4:42

       Would you say that the MMA fighters are about as ultimate of an athlete as you're going to get at the moment coming out of sport?

   23. DFDr Duncan French4:52

       Yeah, I mean, again, I'm biased, right? Because I sit in this space right now, but again, I, you look at gymnasts or divers and the, you know, the skill and the artistry is amazing. It, you can take any sport and you can pull things from it. But just in terms of, you know, true athleticism and, and what an MMA fighter has to do by combining strength, power, conditioning, skill, um, s- the psychological component of being able to execute under what is, you know, truly severe and consequential outcomes, um, really differentiates them. And, and, and (laughs) it's funny because I get a lot of oth- other athletes or athletes that I've wor- worked with formally reaching out to me and saying, "Oh, you know, big fan of the UFC," or, um, I, I think that's kind of a measure when you have other pro athletes saying like, "I love watching MMA and the UFC, and those guys are unreal what they can do and..." Okay, well, if, if you're saying that, then, um, there's obviously something in it, which is, uh, which is pretty cool to hear.

   24. CWChris Williamson5:44

       Yeah, it's such an entertaining sport. You know, the guys have really, really got this format right, which is, it's, it's two guys or two girls in a eight-sided ring smashing seven shades of shit out of each other, uh, for a while.

   25. DFDr Duncan French5:59

       (laughs) .

   26. CWChris Williamson5:59

       And then someone's hand gets raised at the end of it. You know, it's a fairly simple format, but it is so...... accessible, super entertaining. I think the buildup that they've got now, um, at first, I wasn't much of a fan of the cleaning up of the branding, but I think that that also makes everything look a lot more cleaner and- and professional, which is great. Um, going back to what you said before about the fact that there has been an influence of your input, the Performance Institute, on the outcomes that you're getting from the fighters. But because you are dealing with every fighter, the waterline of all of them gets raised up, right? Like, everybody has access to you guys. Now, not everybody's gonna get the same sort of outcomes because not everybody's as coachable, not everybody responds as well, they might have more dog- dogmatic ideologies within their own g- gym, and such like. But how are you, um, gauging the impact that you have across the board, across all fighters when everybody has access? It's not like the UFC beat some other organization in a big battle royale.

   27. DFDr Duncan French7:00

       Uh, it's a little different to any professional sporting organization where you're judged on wins and losses, uh, for all intents and purposes, right? Um, we're- we're- we're kind of the league, let's say, um, and we'll only ever bat 500 because we might be working with both athletes that are in the octagon at the same time for a main event. So, uh...

   28. CWChris Williamson7:18

       But you've never lost a fight.

   29. DFDr Duncan French7:19

       (laughs) Right. We've never, we've n- we've never lost a fight. We've also won-

   30. CWChris Williamson7:23

       (laughs)
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   What are the primary…

   1. DFDr Duncan French15:00

      out, that could truly change the, the likelihood of your success in the event. So yeah, we're very sensitive to how we handle information, how we d- handle data knowing that we've got this really kind of wild and unique business model that we work to, where we're potentially working with two fighters that are gonna compete in a month's time, um, and we're strategizing and working with their coaches, helping them on physical development, et cetera, et cetera. I think, you know, the, the thing that we do to distance ourselves completely for that is that we don't coach and teach technical and tactical work through the Performance Institute, which is obviously the secret sauce. Um, you know, the, the MMA techniques. What, what we do is obviously support them with, you know, nutrition and body composition, with diagnostics, with physical preparation, with mental preparation. All those supplementary factors aren't necessarily the true things which are gonna influence the outcome of the fight, which is technical, tactical work. So w- we kind of align ourselves to that, but we don't deliver that specifically.

   2. CWChris Williamson15:56

      What are the primary metrics that you're looking at over the, uh, weeks and months? So my housemate has just been given a promotion at Newcastle Falcons. He's now the junior physio of the first team, uh, and i- since living with him for the last few years, I've been fascinated learning about chronic loads, uh, and, uh, yardage, and I got to see the back end of one of the spreadsheets that they have these readouts and it's just an endless-

   3. DFDr Duncan French16:20

      Right.

   4. CWChris Williamson16:20

      ... endless stream of data. Who got the, up to the maximum velocity this week, who's done the most yardage, all this stuff. So what's the equivalent in your world? What do you look at from the players?

   5. DFDr Duncan French16:30

      Yeah, I... I mean, welcome to the world of, like, world-class or elite level sport right now. I mean, there, there's more data than we all know what to do with because ultimately technology has changed the game. Um, and as soon as you start wearing technology in competition, uh, and training and you're aggregating all this information, I mean, just, just kind of processing that in a team setting can, can be overwhelming. Um, but I think when we look at, you know, MMA, obviously we're, we're, we're tryna get to the same questions. We're tryna understand how you optimize training load, the exposure to a training stimulus to maximize the effect of that training stimulus. So how, how do we do that? How do we measure people's exposure? Um, what's the right expo- it's the Goldilocks effect, right? How much is too much? How much is too little? And, oh, Goldilocks, that's just right, exactly that's what we need to be. Um, there's a lot of research and literature out there that we know connection between the, the, the, the likelihood of injury or an in- injury incidence with overtraining versus undertraining versus, you know, where, where things sit. So that's an important conversation. But in the sport of MMA, it's a little bit different, right? Because, um, we don't have, um, really robust data insights around competition. Our fighters, it's not like they're wearing heart rate monitors, it's not like they're wearing GPS, it's not like they're wearing any kind of accelerometers or those types of things where we can really start to understand what competition is. We're kind of extrapolating a little bit and making insinuations based on what we... the data we can get in sparring or in training. So yeah, we look at training load, we look at, you know, vision assessments and, and reaction times. We look at cognitive function. Obviously, it's a, you know, a sport where you're getting hit in the head, so how do we monitor and manage those, those exposure loads, whether it's through instrumented mouthpieces that have accelerometers in them where we can look at head impacts, whether i-

   6. CWChris Williamson18:15

      No way. You can put something in the mouth that's going to measure everything?

   7. DFDr Duncan French18:18

      Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's, that's kinda the direction we're going now, and that-

   8. CWChris Williamson18:21

      That's wild.

   9. DFDr Duncan French18:21

      ... that's kind of already li-... yeah, in, in, in rugby and Australian rules football, it's already happening a little bit. We're in- you know, we're pursuing that with MMA. Um, and then you've obviously got other factors like, um, you know, do you see strength, power, characteristics, heart rate for your conditioning? What's your training zone? What's your biological load with respect to lactate management? Things like that. So, I mean, listen, to answer the question, it's, it's a lot of different things. (laughs) Um, but for MMA, we still haven't nailed down what competition truly is so that we can reverse engineer everything from competition. So, that's the north star for us right now is working with different partners in technology and academics to say, "All right, how can we really nail down an understanding of what MMA is?" Um, because we haven't got those insights. And obviously, there's the striking components, but there's grappling components where you're not really moving too much, but there's a huge metabolic demand through isometric hold or isometric contraction that it's really hard to classify what that looks like in terms of ultimately the athletic load that you have to, uh, you know, form in the octagon.

   10. CWChris Williamson19:25

       I went to this meet up that I said yesterday where I got accused of being an Australian-

   11. DFDr Duncan French19:28

       (laughs) .

   12. CWChris Williamson19:29

       ... and at it, I, uh, I met this guy who spends eight hours a day in virtual reality, so he's at the forefront of, of, um, like developing apps-

   13. DFDr Duncan French19:38

       Cool guy. (laughs)

   14. CWChris Williamson19:39

       ... and games. Yeah, he, he seemed to love it, but... Um, and he was telling me that there is, um, new VR technology that is able to track, uh, the body's position in space so that it can accurately represent it in the virtual reality world. I'm wondering whether you would be able to get to the stage in future where all of the different camera angles that you guys have around the octagon may be able to track stuff like trauma and movement, um, and then be able to reverse engineer that to actually be able to give you some sort of metrics. But the fact that you've got, whatever, a, uh, GPS mouthguard with an in-built HRV monitor or a heart rate sensor in it, that blows my mind. You could have something that you just knock into, knock into your mouth and it gives you all of those solutions is crazy.

   15. DFDr Duncan French20:25

       Yeah, it's cool, right? And again, th- that's one piece of equipment and technology that they wear in training and competition, so, you know, that, that's, that's something that we're pursuing because it can be universal then. Um, but yeah, I mean, you talk about VR, like, anything that mitigates, you know, TBI or concussion or the risk of head trauma in our sport is gonna be beneficial and advantageous. Um, so we're, we're actively pursuing those types of things. Um, and yeah, VR, virtual reality, augmented reality in a combat environment along with haptic technology where you look at vibration, so, you know, it's coming out of the gaming world, you know, World of Warcraft or whatever, or Cards, you know, those type of things where you, you know, you're shooting your gun, but you're getting that feedback as well at the same time. How can we apply haptic technology in a, uh, augmented reality space where we're using VR and we're also getting haptic feedback to say you're suggested you're getting hit or, you know, a punch or something, but you're actually not? Um, you know, tho- those are the types of training strategies kind of moving into the future that we're also exploring.

   16. CWChris Williamson21:25

       Dude, this is year 3000 shit.

   17. DFDr Duncan French21:27

       (laughs) .

   18. CWChris Williamson21:27

       It's so advanced. Did I hear you once mention that you guys were looking at some of the potential impacts of psychedelics as a performance enhancer?

   19. DFDr Duncan French21:37

       Not as a performance enhancer, but around traumatic brain injury, um-

   20. CWChris Williamson21:41

       Oh, so like as a neuroprotective type thing?

   21. DFDr Duncan French21:43

       ... and again... Correct, yeah. A- a- and, you know, there, there's been some good work, particularly out of, um, John Hopkins University over in Maryland, um, where they're looking at, um, you know, less of, you know, ter- terminal illness and some patients with, you know, um, certain medical conditions that are gonna be terminal at some point. So, how do they use psychedelics to relieve pain or, or remove, um, you know... And, and again, in, in kind of combat populations where they looked at post-traumatic stress disorders and depression and some of these aspects on a very clinical level, how psychedelics are potentially, um, an opportunity to, to influence that. Again, it's very early days for the UFC, it's not something that we're completely, um, you know, running down this avenue right now. But again, looking at working with partners to cover every avenue to see where, yes, we know that we, we, we operate in a combat sport, right? There are certain, um, you know, issues and factors related to combat sport within the parameters about the rules of the sport where, yes, it's a, it's a collision and it's a contact sport. It's gonna lead to certain physical, um, psychological, social, emotional impacts that, um, might have a detrimental effect. So, whether it's a, um, a rule change, whether it's equipment that you wear, whether it's, um, interventions like psychedelics or like nutritional interventions or nootropics or whatever it may be, um, you know, I think we're just very engaged in trying to understand that and take them on so that we can do a better job of keeping our athletes in the, in the he- you know, in the most safe and, and healthy space possible.

   22. CWChris Williamson23:20

       How much do you deal with the, um, psychological strain? So, I'm fascinated by the fact that you're asking your athletes... And this is the same with every fight sport. I mean, it's the same with every sport in general, but particularly with a fight sport where there's so much glory around success. There's so much, not shame around defeat, but you can see it in the player's body language or the fighter's body language right at the end of the fight. Plus, there is fight week leading up to it. There's press conferences, there's shit talking beforehand, there's weight cuts, there's... It's such a unique blend of psychological strain, which is precisely designed, at least by your opponent that way, right? To put you in a place where you're not actually all that confident. Um, how much have you looked at strategies for how the guys can deal with this? And are there any lessons that people could take away, uh, into their own lives for... in the build-up to a stressful situation or something that they're perhaps a little bit anxious about?

   23. DFDr Duncan French24:15

       Yeah, that's a- that's a great question. Um, and again, listen, we're... remember, we're a promotion, right? Um, and these guys are independent, independent contractors, so they're in the business of promoting themselves to get, you know, people to buy tickets to come and watch them. So, whether it's shit talking or whether it's promotion, like, the- the- the- they're trying to sell the event and get people interested in their fight. Um, you know, y- you know, without letting you (laughs) behind the curtain too much, you know, some of that's obviously real, some of it's bravado. Um, but again, it makes for a (laughs) ... it makes for an interesting build-up to- to the fight itself. Um, yeah, I mean, from a psychological or sports psychology perspective, we're absolutely getting into that space because it's a, it's a pillar of performance. So, how do athletes manage that? How do they use it, um, to their advantage but how do they stay away from someone else, um, doing it? Um, and I think when, when we first started the Performance Institute back in 2017, we didn't have sports psychology as part of our portfolio of services. It's absolutely a critical core component now, and we offer that to, uh, to the athletes. Um, but yeah, I think, you know, to- to answer it succinctly, um, you know, we do a lot of work around kind of mindfulness and being able to disassociate from all that white noise and being able to internalize what is your game plan. You know that you've done the work, you know that you're technically and tactically proficient in what you need to do. So, how do you remove the white noise and pursue the signal of your mindfulness of being present in the moment? Now, pres- present in the moment in- in- in the UFC can be someone kind of seven seconds from choking you out. So, um, you know, you- you've still got to be mindful and present in that moment. But again, it comes down to, right, what's the technique? What's the tactic I need to actually execute to remove this choke? Um, there's so many pieces of white noise and- and chaos and- and- and, um, you know, so many factors. And I think, you know, to- to succinctly give you an answer, when we look at our psychologists and the way- work that they do, um, with our athletes, it's very much around being present and being mindful and being able to process things effectively. Otherwise it... tho- those external signals just overwhelm.

   24. CWChris Williamson26:20

       Yeah. Yeah, it's, um... it's strange to think about the number of parameters that go into, uh, someone putting a good performance on in UFC. Like, it's so-

   25. DFDr Duncan French26:32

       Yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson26:32

       ... unbelievably intense to balance all of these different elements. And something that I've always thought about is the number of athletes out there i- in any domain who physically may have the character... physiologically may have the characteristics to make them an unbelievably elite athlete. They may have the approach to training, they might have the genetics, they might have the work rate, the conscientiousness, the industriousness, the support system, everything. However, they are unable to deal with the stress of game day. And I wonder how many athletes throughout the years have got themselves to the stage where they were... th- they could have been a- a world cha..., they could have been the greatest that ever lived, and they were let down by their inability to kind of get out of their own head and allow themselves to perform on game day.

   27. DFDr Duncan French27:20

       Yeah. A- and, you know, the stakes are pretty high in this sport. This is, like I say, it's a sport of consequences, right? And- and the conseque... every sport has got consequences (laughs) , um, but in this sport, they can be pretty severe, right? Um, so that just layers on kind of the- the pressures and the stresses. And, uh, (laughs) yeah, we- we- we jest here at the PI, but we say, you know, it's... the MMA is 90% mental apart from the 60% that's physical. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's- it's just everything. Y- y- you need everything in this sport. And again, coming back to one of your earlier questions, like, it's really hard to... you know, there- there's so many variables, right? So, it's really hard to say one is any more important than the other. But when it comes to mental fortitude, and that's even before you get into competition, like the mental fortitude just to get through the rigors of training on a daily basis to, you know, hit- hit the mitts and then do your strength and conditioning work on the side. Like, just the mental fortitude to be compliant and- and, um, you know, adhere to a long-term approach to technical and tactical development as well as physical development, that alone is- is challenging in our sport. Now, you can liken that to things like, you know, rowing or- or rugby, kr-

   28. NANarrator28:27

       Mm.

   29. DFDr Duncan French28:27

       ... codes or whatever it may be, whi- which are also very physical. But then, yeah, you layer on that psychological piece of you're walking into competition and there's millions watching on TV and you're potentially going to get knocked out and people are going to ridicule you and laugh at you whilst you're laying unconscious on your back.

   30. CWChris Williamson28:42

       Make memes about you on Twitter.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   A 2K- a 2K…

   1. DFDr Duncan French30:00

      you're trying to make to your body in training, uh, are massive, right? So yeah, those guys push themselves to the absolute limit, you know, then... and I've been around some of those sessions and it's just terrifying and brutal to watch. You know, someone's not kind of stomping on your head then or someone's not gonna come and try to truly knock you out. Um-Like I say, it's- it's a- a- and I'm not playing down (laughs) kinda rowing or anything, or any other sport, I'm just saying, I think when you look at all the respective factors, and the outcome of our sport, what people are trying to do to you, in- inflict physical damage to you, as well, um, it just makes, it- it just layers on another kind of, level of intensity. I'm not using that as a physical intensity, I'm just like, intensity of everything, 'cause yeah, rowing- rowing is, the training for rowing, to be an elite level rower is- is brutal. Um, but yeah, these guys are doing it, and- and that, and they've got this

   2. CWChris Williamson30:51

      A 2K- a 2K road test with someone trying to punch you in the face while you do it.

   3. DFDr Duncan French30:54

      Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson30:55

      Yeah, yeah.

   5. DFDr Duncan French30:55

      Just constantly. (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson30:56

      I have, um, so I met a couple of guys who were recently on a reality TV program for a grappling, an upcoming grappling competition that was going on. And it was kind of like a- an Ultimate Fighter-style thing, so living in a fight house, and they were going out and doing their whatever, and they were playing pranks on each other, or- i- in between and stuff like that. And they had, in order to get through to one of the next rounds, they had a no-time-limit, uh, grappling-

   7. DFDr Duncan French31:26

      Mm-hmm.

   8. CWChris Williamson31:26

      ... event. Which I- I re- I had never heard of before, but isn't unbelievably rare, apparently, in- in that world. And, um, one of the fights that the- the dude that was traveling to this event in San Antonio with us had, lasted for three hours and 55 minutes of grappling.

   9. DFDr Duncan French31:44

      Yeah. Yeah, I mean-

   10. CWChris Williamson31:45

       Three hours and 55 minutes of- of grappling.

   11. DFDr Duncan French31:47

       Yeah, think about that. (laughs) Think- think about that. I mean, just processing that is- is ridiculous, right? You're essentially, um, you know, grappling and trying to, you know, submit or choke out an opponent, the same duration it takes someone to run a marathon. Do you know what I mean? It- it- it's just un- almost unfathomable. But that's what these guys will do. Um, and the warrior spirit will, you know, will take them through that.

   12. CWChris Williamson32:10

       Dude, it's- it's unbelievable. I, um, I was really, really impressed. But it's one of those things where you realize just how big of a delta there is between y- everybody sits on the sidelines and talks about like, "Oh, well, you know, it'd be- it'd be- he should slip that punch and he should do this in a different way," 'cause everybody feels like they have some sort of five pence to add into the discussion around things. Then you realize, there is- i- it's a different universe. These people are the- they're completely different animals. So speaking of that, are there some fighters that you've worked with or that you've seen in the Performance Institute, either sort of current roster or previous roster, that are just a- a total joy to coach, or people that have come in with a- a very particular, um, physiology that you've found that's- that's unique or different or impressive, that you hadn't seen previously?

   13. DFDr Duncan French32:55

       Um, I mean, uh, uh, talking in g- well, I'll answer your question. Yeah, yes, it's funny, right, because, um, I've worked with all these different sports, but, you know, there- there's one thing which the armchair expert always knows, and that's fighting and nutrition, right? And here we are, I'm working in a sport where there's, and the same thing, everyone seems to be an expert in how you win a fight, do you know what I mean? So it's like, the- there's a lot of- there's a lot of noise and a lot of opinion in this-

   14. CWChris Williamson33:23

       Pro science.

   15. DFDr Duncan French33:23

       Yeah, in this world. Um, but you know, you cut through that. Uh, I think, like I say, I come back to the clientele, the athlete population, like th- the- the- in my experience, you know, th- whilst there's different polarizing characters in our sport, talking generically, like th- this is a group of athletes that I just love working with, that are like, th- they wanna get after it, they wanna do the work, they're not scared of the work, they are committed to, you know, the cause and to the arts and all that type of stuff. And, um, yeah, I mean, a- absolute pleasure to work with. Of course they've got quirks and traits, you're like, "Come on, mate, that's not what the fuck you're doing. That like, why are you doing that?" But, I mean at the end of the day, as a group of athletes, I- I would work with combat athletes any day of the week. When I've looked at some of my other athletes, and again, whether it's, you know, Premier League soccer or, you know, where athletes position in the pecking order and the hierarchy of things, but combat athletes are absolute joy and pleasure to work with. Um, certainly on the physical preparation side, because you're not having to convince them to do the work usually, um, y- you're pulling the horses back and saying, you know, "W- hold on," like, "Enough is enough." Like, "Let's- let's, uh, just think about this strategically." So, um, yeah, I mean, I- I- I don't wanna mention any particular names, but there's, uh, there's lots of individuals on our roster who, um, like absolute warriors, true first-class people, whether they've come from Olympic backgrounds through freestyle wrestling in the Olympic games, or whether they've come through collegiate programs, or whether they're talent transfers from football, like American football, um, or whether they're just guys who have been on the fight circuit and journeymen that have been knocking people out, you know, for year over year and just like, okay, this is a guy that might not be the best athlete, but-

   16. CWChris Williamson35:05

       Mm-hmm.

   17. DFDr Duncan French35:05

       ... is just a hard individual and a hard human being and just, even those guys, like great to be around, 'cause you can learn so much from their- their mindset and their mentality about how they approach life, right? It's fascinating.

   18. CWChris Williamson35:16

       So, going into some of the training protocols and stuff that you use, that people at home may be able to take on, I know that you've done a lot of research around optimal reps, set ranges, rest periods, in order to maximize muscle growth and hypertrophy. What have you come to- what sort of conclusion have you come to at the moment with that?

   19. DFDr Duncan French35:36

       Yeah, I mean, the irony is that, um, we don't pursue a lot of hypertrophy, um, training techniques in combat athletes, 'cause usually they're having to make weight. Um, so, you know, we're not trying to put excessive amounts of muscle on a- on an athlete. In- in the rare chance we do, if someone moves up a weight class or if someone's kind of still, you know, chronically underfueled or whatever it may be, um, we- we try and pursue some of those types of things. But yeah, I mean, I think the key things to hypertrophy are obviously, you know, looking at muscle damage, how you ensue muscle damage. You're kind of the three pillars of hypertrophy. Um, so using different training, uh, approaches, whether it be cluster sets, whether it be drop sets, whether it be pause reps, whether it be eccentrics, accentuated eccentrics, whatever, there's a different way to do that. So there's no, like, perfect method for creating hypertrophy. But, you know, looking at time under tension is a volume conversation. It's- it's how much ten- tension can you put through a muscle within a working set, so, you know, larger rep ranges and set ranges, obviously, or the number of times within a week.... so kind of looking at, um, you know, 12 to 30 sets for a given muscle group in a training week is where you're trying to pursue hypertrophy. Um, looking at how you damage tissue, because then it can regrow and redevelop at- at- at, you know, to a greater level, um, so rebuild larger, so how do you use techniques like eccentrics, um, that are gonna promote some tissue damage to allow it to then regenerate and recover, um-

   20. CWChris Williamson37:06

       When you say, when you say eccentrics, are you talking about tempo movements basically there?

   21. DFDr Duncan French37:12

       Correct, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Slo- you know, slow eccentrics, so concentric shortening actions versus eccentric lengthening actions, which we know damage the muscle more. And then also creating a metabolic stimulus, like what's the internal environment? Whether it's nitric oxide that you're trying to release, and that's where some of this, uh, you know, blood flow restriction is now quite vogue in- in hypertrophy training. You know, that's just trying to create a metabolic stress inside the cell. And then obviously, the critical thing in parallel to those three factors is nutrition, is protein and protein synthesis, and looking at, um, you know, the- the- the protein synthetic rate of- of muscle, how- how muscle can turn over protein, and are you fueling your bu- excuse me, w- wrong term, are you providing kind of the- the building blocks, um, and usually that is l- leucine is- is the key amino acid, um, for muscle growth and muscle hypertrophy that we need to think about. Um, but are you kind of putting your nutrition strategy in a very complementary fashion with the training strategy and a training stimulus that is gonna affect those three factors?

   22. CWChris Williamson38:12

       Yeah. What are the big mistakes that people are making when it comes to that sort of, uh, peri-training nutrition strategy?

   23. DFDr Duncan French38:22

       Well, I think a lot of the- the science, a lot of the research obviously is around nutrient timing, um, and, you know, I think particularly around a, uh, around a training session, you tr- you need to get the protein in as close to the cessation of, uh, of the end of your- your- your workout as possible, all right? Because that's when the, you know, protein synthetic rate is gonna be at its highest, um, and the resynthesis of protein and the rebuilding of the amino acids is gonna be at its highest level. So, providing those building blocks through a nutrition intervention is gonna be critical. If you leave it too long, obviously you're just, um, negating or mitigating the extent of protein synthesis that's gonna happen. So, that's kind of the key thing, um, and yeah, anywhere between kind of 0.25 to 0.3 of a gram per kilo of body weight per day is, um, is what you're looking at from a protein stimulus or a protein intake for, uh, hypertrophy strategies.

   24. CWChris Williamson39:16

       0.25 to 0.3 of a gram-

   25. DFDr Duncan French39:21

       Sure.

   26. CWChris Williamson39:21

       ... per kilo of body weight post w- is that just around the workout?

   27. DFDr Duncan French39:26

       Per day.

   28. CWChris Williamson39:27

       Yeah, I'm trying to work out, 'cause th- surely that would be, whatever, 40 grams or 30 grams of protein per day?

   29. DFDr Duncan French39:33

       Correct.

   30. CWChris Williamson39:34

       But that's not total intake?
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Yeah, no. …

   1. CWChris Williamson45:00

      Um, so I'm thinking, "Who can do six by 10 at 80%? Who can do 10-"

   2. DFDr Duncan French45:05

      Yeah, no.

   3. CWChris Williamson45:05

      "... who can do 1 by 10 at 80%?" Um, with, especially with the short rest.

   4. DFDr Duncan French45:10

      Well, norm- norm- normally you get two s- two sets out, um, a- a- and 80% or so. But then yeah, uh, the, in the, into the potentially second, or third, or beyond sets, you, you're really starting to strip the bar back. Because then, again, like I say, that's now becomes the, the volume conversation. It's about using the drop sets of the load to complete the, the r- required volume.

   5. CWChris Williamson45:32

      Uh, am I guessing that if you were to do an RPE, you'd be looking at like an RPE 9.5 by the end of each set?

   6. DFDr Duncan French45:37

      (laughs) I mean, yeah, I mean

   7. NANarrator45:40

      ultimately-

   8. CWChris Williamson45:40

      Because it can't be a 10, or else you're not going to have made... Oh well, I guess it would be a 10, but you're not going to have gone above a 10 'cause ors- otherwise you wouldn't have made those, the repetitions.

   9. DFDr Duncan French45:47

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson45:48

       Right?

   11. DFDr Duncan French45:48

       I mean, a 10 on an RPE scale is maximal, right?

   12. CWChris Williamson45:50

       Yes.

   13. DFDr Duncan French45:50

       So you would want maximum because if you only do four repetitions, you unload, you might get another two repetitions out, you unload again, you might get your n- another three repeti- Like, that's how you're working the, the stimulus, right? So, it's always trying to be maximal in, in nature.

   14. CWChris Williamson46:05

       Okay. And with this, did you find that certain exercises engendered themselves to better hormone release? I'm gonna guess larger movements, more muscle groups being recruited.

   15. DFDr Duncan French46:15

       Yeah, that's-

   16. CWChris Williamson46:15

       What were the best exercises?

   17. DFDr Duncan French46:17

       I think that's the secret to all, like hypertrophy type approaches is that, yeah, multi- l- large compound exercises and more muscle activation.

   18. CWChris Williamson46:27

       Okay, yes. I mean, well, (sighs) I might, I might see if some of the lads in the gym fancy doing it tomorrow, but I, I, it, it's-

   19. DFDr Duncan French46:34

       (laughs)

   20. CWChris Williamson46:34

       They're gonna take a little bit of con- I'll get them to listen to this first and I'll tell them about your credentials and we'll see, we'll see what they can say. Talking about recovery between sessions and especially with your guys, right, because you've got so many different domains that the fighters need to be able to move through. It's not just technique stuff, it's not just strength and conditioning, it's not just the cardio, all of these different bits and pieces. What have you found is an upper bound that you can get... E- e- say, the average elite fighter. I'm aware that that person doesn't particularly exist. Um, what's the upper bound in terms of the training volume, you know, duration per day that you can get people through?

   21. DFDr Duncan French47:10

       Uh, I mean, and I'll say it a little bit differently, uh, I, I mean, we, we recommend kind of anywhere between 10 and 14 training units a week, um, but there's guys that are absolutely doing upwards of 18 to 20 training units a week. Um, you know, there's, there's a, there's a conversation on quality, right? It's a quality and quantity conversation. Um, some, uh, you know, some sessions, you know, are gonna be 60 to 90 minutes long, but there's also fighters that'll pull three-hour-long training sessions and think, you know, don't think twice about it. So it's, uh... That's where we don't have the answers right now. We don't understand kind of what is the true optimal level, what's the true, um, you know, the true standard approach that, that we put in place, um, and we're still trying to figure that out through kinda monitoring and evaluating training kind of loads and people's ability to tolerate that.

   22. CWChris Williamson47:58

       I've got a bunch of friends who are chasing for a CrossFit Games or a CrossFit Regionals spot at the moment, and I think that there are some similarities probably between your guys' sports, just that they're, uh, very wide in terms of the different domains and the different stimuluses that you're trying to get out of, uh, all of the different training protocols that people do. And they're, you know, "I'll say, 'Hey man, send me...'" 'Cause I just like to be a, a sort of a, a voyeuristic, uh, torturer, and I'll say, "But send me what your training week looks like." And you see it's up at 7:00 AM for a hour and a half swim, it's back, "I'll go- I'll have a nap until the morning time, I'll do some strength work and maybe some monostructural work, then I'll go back, have some more food, then I'll go..." And you're thinking like this is, you know, multiple days per week, and their active recovery days look like-... just a slightly lower intensity version of a longer workout that I might try and do. And, um, yeah, it's-

   23. DFDr Duncan French48:51

       Yeah, I mean if you think of something like, if you think of something like CrossFit, which has got, you know, potentially many different components to it, whether you're working on your strength or your Olympic lifts or whether you're working on handstand walks or, you know, swimming, you know, they'll bring swimming into the CrossFit ƒ games ƒ (laughs) . So, you don't, you don't know what's going to happen in the CrossFit games, right? So you're, you're always preparing for the unknown by just ticking every single box. That's the same as MMA. You've got lots of different variables that you need to kind of complete the training exposure in. Um, so how do you distribute that? Um, you're either stacking sessions on top of each other and making very long sessions and then having more prolonged, you know, rest periods, or you're doing, you know, distributing of training blocks throughout the day in a very sporadic nature to try and, um, capture some recovery after each workout. It's- it's, you know, again, it's, we- we don't really have that figured out in its entirety right now.

   24. CWChris Williamson49:44

       A lot of that down to personal preference at the moment?

   25. DFDr Duncan French49:46

       Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And also, you know, the- the personal lifestyles of the- of the fighter, you know, are they (laughs) a night owl or a morning owl?

   26. CWChris Williamson49:53

       You've got to pick the kids up from- from school or something like that, yeah.

   27. DFDr Duncan French49:56

       Right. So, some fighters have full time jobs as pipe layers or electricians or whatever as well as doing all the training, you know. Demetrious Johnson, who was obviously, uh, you know, 125 in the UFC for a long time, now fights in a different organization, but, uh, he, you know, he holds the record for the most defenses in 125. He was, um, a full-time, um, contractor, you know, builder, and- and worked on a building site whilst at the same time doing his, uh, his MMA training, so...

   28. CWChris Williamson50:21

       What would you say, if you were to try and characterize some of the attributes between the guys that join the UFC who are, you know, obviously elite fighters, they've managed to get themselves an invite into the organization, um, and the difference between the ones that come and go, uh, and are unable to have that longevity, uh, and unable to- unable to really make it to the act- absolute elite of the sport and become, not necessarily champions because that's beyond just, uh, their own internal training and a- approach to the sport, but between those guys and between the guys that do make it to the absolute top and then also have the longevity as well, in terms of characteristics, their approach to whatever it be, maybe training, coaching, all that sort of stuff?

   29. DFDr Duncan French51:04

       Yeah, I mean, I think as well, as well, if you're in the UFC, you're not training harder than anybody else. Ev- everybody trains hard in this sport, right? I think if you look at the true elite guys, what they have the ability to do is get back on the mats every single day. So, the- the thing that differentiates the people at the top versus everybody else is their ability to truly train at the highest, highest level from a technical, tactical perspective day after day after day after day, uh, th- you know, for chronic periods of time, whereas everyone else might, you know, reduce their training capabilities and then rebound a little bit. Um, d- still training hard obviously, but I think that's one thing which we look to in- in our kind of conversations here, is something that truly is- is differentiating the top guys. Just their ability to go again and again and again on a daily basis, or session to session, such that the technical input to their training and their skill development is that much greater than everybody else's.

   30. CWChris Williamson52:00

       Have you had a look at motivation thr- from what you guys do?
5. 1:00:00 – 1:01:50

   Yeah. No, it's, it's…

   1. CWChris Williamson1:00:00

      is amazing.

   2. DFDr Duncan French1:00:02

      Yeah. No, it's, it's cool. It's cool to be around. Like I said, we're- w- it's 30 years as a professional sport in 2023, so next year. Um, and I still think, you know, there's massive growth opportunities and learnings and professionalization of the sport and, you know, it's taking it to the next level that is, uh... It's, it's, it's a great sport to be around right now. It's, uh, it's, it's still growing and still improving.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:00:24

      If there's someone who has found the stuff that we're talking about here particularly interesting, what are some of your favorite resources to keep up to date with work that's in your region, that's in strength and conditioning, hypertrophy? You know, like good accessible places that people can read?

   4. DFDr Duncan French1:00:40

      Yeah, I mean if there's any interest in, uh, you know, MMA and then the UFC, the UFC Performance Institute has released a, a digital journal which can be downloaded. Um, that, that's... There's a link for that on our, um, Instagram pages and Twitter pages and things like that. Um, again, if you can't navigate that, just reach out through those channels and we'll, I'll let you know. Um, but again, I think, um, you know, just looking at, um, you know, who, who, who are the, who are the players, who, who's making movements in, uh, in the world of strength and conditioning right now? You know, there's, there's some, some great people out there. Phil Daru's doing some good stuff. Obviously, um, Joe DeFranco has been doing it for a long time. Others... You know. So it, it depends where you're coming from and what you're trying to achieve, um, whether it's MMA-specific or whether it's more generic training.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:01:26

      Cheers. Duncan, thank you so much for your day, mate.

   6. DFDr Duncan French1:01:29

      No worries. Thanks for the chat.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:01:31

      What's happening, people? Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe. Peace.

Episode duration: 1:01:50