The War On Men Isn’t Helping Anyone - Scott Galloway

1. 0:00 – 15:03

   Why are We Inserting Women into Men’s Issues?

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      Scott Galloway, welcome to the show.

   2. SGScott Galloway0:02

      It's always great to see you, man. Great to see you-

   3. CWChris Williamson0:03

      Bett-

   4. SGScott Galloway0:03

      ... here in London.

   5. CWChris Williamson0:04

      Better to see you in person.

   6. SGScott Galloway0:05

      Yeah, that's right.

   7. CWChris Williamson0:05

      The first one that we've done, all the time that we've hung out in person and all the podcasts we've done, and those two things have never crossed over.

   8. SGScott Galloway0:11

      We've never done a live podcast?

   9. CWChris Williamson0:12

      We've never done an in-person podcast. (laughs)

   10. SGScott Galloway0:14

       Oh, nice.

   11. CWChris Williamson0:14

       We've hung out, and we've recorded, but we've never done the same two things.

   12. SGScott Galloway0:17

       Oh, welcome to London, man.

   13. CWChris Williamson0:18

       Thank you. You did an interview-

   14. SGScott Galloway0:21

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson0:21

       ... with BBC Global-

   16. SGScott Galloway0:23

       Okay.

   17. CWChris Williamson0:23

       ... that was titled, Young Men are Struggling: What Does This Mean for Young Women?

   18. SGScott Galloway0:29

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson0:29

       This men struggling, women most affected framing is wild to me.

   20. SGScott Galloway0:35

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson0:36

       Does that irritate you in the same way as it does me to have to do this weird sort of land acknowledgement to the, the challenges that women face even as we're talking about the problems that men are facing?

   22. SGScott Galloway0:48

       I, like, I think it's productive to think of it as a societal problem. Well, moving to solutions, I think the only way you get stuff done here or the most effective way to get stuff done in the lesson is, I've spent the majority of my life struggling with this issue professionally, and that is, I think I'm good at being right. I'm not very good at being effective, and there's a difference.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:10

       Okay.

   24. SGScott Galloway1:11

       And if you really wanna help young men, and you wanna get, think about starting a conversation that gets programs, and a change in mentality, and a focus on the investments needed to lift up young men, I think it's done more effectively through the context of lifting up all young people. So the basic line is women aren't gonna continue to thrive in the country, isn't gonna continue to prosper as long as young men are flailing. So this needs to be a collective effort.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:42

       I, I do understand, and I get, I get the difference between, uh, ideological purity or, um, like, uh, reality-based insight-

   26. SGScott Galloway1:54

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson1:54

       ... and effective, uh, communication-

   28. SGScott Galloway1:57

       Right.

   29. CWChris Williamson1:57

       ... and press release and stuff like that. I, it, I had this conversation with Richard Reeves as well.

   30. SGScott Galloway2:02

       Yeah.
2. 15:03 – 25:47

   The Quiet Return of Soft Bigotry

   1. CWChris Williamson15:03

      think that's a, I think that's a great take. I, I would push back on what you said about how the woman in her 30s who's got the cat and is in the jumper thing. I think that archetype's gone. I think that it's very lauded and applauded now for women to be, you know, deep, deep, deep into their 30s and still just doing themselves.

   2. SGScott Galloway15:21

      Fine.

   3. CWChris Williamson15:21

      Yeah, because it's-

   4. SGScott Galloway15:22

      Have kids on their own.

   5. CWChris Williamson15:22

      ... again, the, there's this idea that I, I came up with when talking to Richard Reeves, actually. I called it the soft bigotry of male expectations.

   6. SGScott Galloway15:30

      Mm.

   7. CWChris Williamson15:30

      So, you were talking about how if you were to say women are able to be better doctors, better this, better that, you get applauded for it-

   8. SGScott Galloway15:40

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson15:40

      ... but if you were to say that there are some things that men are better at, that's not.

   10. SGScott Galloway15:44

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson15:45

       If you were to say that those things, CEO leadership, that that is something that women should aspire to do-

   12. SGScott Galloway15:51

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson15:51

       ... you would also get applauded for that. If you were to say, uh, developing your nurturing nature, uh, being more sensitive, being more caring, being able to tap into your EQ as a woman-

   14. SGScott Galloway16:01

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson16:01

       ... is something that you should develop, that's the sort of thing that you wouldn't. I came up with this soft bigotry of male expectations thing when there was a, uh, study, a anthropological study that was redone on the amount of big game hunting contributed to by women. Turned out that the data had been fucked with an awful lot. The, um, uh, reanalyzed thesis was women did just as much big game hunting as men and sometimes even more, but there was loads of fuckery in the data. One hunt was counted the sa- if you contributed to one hunt, that was one to one.

   16. SGScott Galloway16:33

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson16:33

       It didn't count the number of times that that happened. So a man could have gone out on 50 hunts a year and the woman went on one, a woman went on one, and they were counted as one and one. It also didn't count what the women were hunting in terms of how big was the game, et cetera, et cetera. And it made me think, there was obviously an agenda to trying to put forward women as being able to do the thing that the men did just as well as the men.

   18. SGScott Galloway16:59

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson17:00

       Which implicitly derogates what the women can do that the men can't do. So we want the women to be able to do what the men can do, but if we laud what the women can do that the men can't do, that's somehow lesser. And I was like, "That's really fucking sexist. That's really judgmental and superbly patronizing-"

   20. SGScott Galloway17:17

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson17:18

       "... to women." If you were to say, "Well, being a mother, uh, you know, alloparenting, coalition-building within a, a, a local group of, of aunts and friends and grandmas and stuff," like that's not... Or local specialization and making sure that whatever the, the, the environment is kept tidy in a manner that men would struggle with, or the cooking, or the cleaning, or the caring, or the raising. Like, no, no, no, no, you should be looking at big game hunting. And I'm seeing this, whatever men do is seen as desirable for women to do, and implicit in that is so much fucking sexism that is, the call is coming from inside the house. Like you do realize that you're, like, stereotypically cooking yourselves. As women, you're saying what we can do naturally is implicitly less valuable. Schultz told me this story of his wife. She used to work at Google, and they would go shopping, uh, and, and they would have their daughter with them.

   22. SGScott Galloway18:16

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CWChris Williamson18:16

       IVF, like, difficult journey in order to be able to get there. And-... the ex-workmates from Google would say, "Oh, so, so what's- where are you now? What are you doing now?" And his wife would give this answer and he's- Andrew said, fucking killed him. Says, "Oh, I'm just a mom." And he said it was the just-

   24. SGScott Galloway18:33

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson18:34

       ... that made him feel like, (sighs) "Ugh".

   26. SGScott Galloway18:36

       Mm-hmm.

   27. CWChris Williamson18:36

       She can't ... That you, it is a very difficult needle to thread to be able to take pride in being a home builder as a woman. And in that, that is every w- and there are some women out there who don't desire a family and it's the right decision and so on and so forth. It seems like eight in 10 childless women didn't intend to be childless.

   28. SGScott Galloway18:56

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CWChris Williamson18:56

       This is Stephen Shaw's work, fucking-

   30. SGScott Galloway18:58

       Mm-hmm.
3. 25:47 – 33:23

   Are Progressives Finally Ready to Talk About Men’s Issues?

   1. CWChris Williamson25:47

      I mean, it's something that's close to my heart, I come from one of the roughest places in the UK. I come from Stockton-on-Tees. I, there was some comedians in earlier on, and he said, "Are you from Newcastle?" And I was, "Oh, technically I'm from Stockton." He says, "That is the worst place I've ever played. It's the worst place I've ever been on tour," and he's toured around all of the UK. Uh, so for me, I- I have this sort of, you know, huge fucking bee in my bonnet to say this, the real supposed group that was originally uplifted by liberal progressive types, it was supposed to be about class. It wasn't supposed to be a- about race or sex or orientation or whatever. So on- on- on that point there, have liberals and progressives started to pay attention to the man problem or is it still just a- a cursory glance? How much do they actually care?

   2. SGScott Galloway26:29

      Just started. Just started. I went to the Democratic National Convention, it was a parade of special interest groups, the- the struggles of women, the struggle of n- struggles of non-whites, the struggle of the gay community, the struggle of immigrants.

   3. CWChris Williamson26:43

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SGScott Galloway26:43

      The only group that wasn't mentioned is the group that on any metric has fallen further faster relative to any other group, and that is young men. And if you go to the DNC website, and this has changed since I did the podcast with Michael Smerconish, it used to be they listed 16 demographic groups under a section called Who We Serve. This is who the Democratic Party is here for: Native Americans, Pacific Islanders, Black Americans, veterans, the disabled, seniors. I added it up, it was 74% of the population. The only 26% they didn't name was young men. And when you say you're advantaging, purposefully advantaging 74% of the population, you're not advantaging 74% of the population.

   5. CWChris Williamson27:24

      Disadvantaging.

   6. SGScott Galloway27:24

      You're discriminating against the 26%.

   7. CWChris Williamson27:27

      Well, they did have free vasectomies outside of the DNC, don't forget about that.

   8. SGScott Galloway27:31

      I don't remember that. I missed that one.

   9. CWChris Williamson27:33

      The m- the most behaviorally genetic seppuku

   10. NANarrator27:35

       you can ever think of.

   11. SGScott Galloway27:35

       Maybe that's what happened.

   12. CWChris Williamson27:36

       Yeah.

   13. SGScott Galloway27:37

       (laughs) No, but there is- there is still a lack of recognition, uh, especially among Democrats. Here's the problem. The right recognize the problem, but unfortunately, I think their answer is coarseness and cruelty, and sometimes conflating masculinity with- with, as a zero-sum game and returning to the '50s.

   14. CWChris Williamson27:59

       Mm-hmm.

   15. SGScott Galloway27:59

       I don't think their vision of masculinity is the right one. The far left's vision of masculinity, their- their view is the following. "Man, you don't have problem, you are the problem." That's not productive. And also, their answer, "Act more like a woman." No, that's not the answer either.

   16. CWChris Williamson28:15

       Your main problem is your masculinity.

   17. SGScott Galloway28:16

       And what's interesting is that while there's a kind of a public narrative, I think, for many women, I- I- I- this is anecdotal evidence, but it really is true, I'm not making this up, women will consistently ask how can they meet men at my age. A woman who's divorced at my age, the pool of available men is really tiny.

   18. CWChris Williamson28:34

       Mm-hmm.

   19. SGScott Galloway28:35

       And they'll say to me, "Do you have anyone I- you could set me up with?" And about half the time, they'll say something along the lines of, "Either way," and they look around and they go, "I like a masculine man." Because their narrative and their outward facing is they want a sensitive man.

   20. CWChris Williamson28:49

       Mm-hmm.

   21. SGScott Galloway28:49

       I mean, it- it's a snarky joke, but I think it's somewhat accurate, do you really want a sensitive man? That just leaves two of you in the car crying and the parking spot empty.

   22. CWChris Williamson29:00

       Mm-hmm.

   23. SGScott Galloway29:01

       And that is snarky and it's sexist, but I think there's some truth to that. I think women are drawn to men who, um, demonstrate some of the traditional attributes of masculinity-

   24. CWChris Williamson29:12

       Mm-hmm.

   25. SGScott Galloway29:12

       ... despite- despite this public narrative that I really just want a sensitive man, a man in touch with his feelings, and I think there's some benefit to all of that. But I don't think we're having an honest conversation yet around the struggles that young men are facing, how to fix it. My view is that you get 80% of the way there through programs that aren't even targeted. Maybe some targeted programs in school, Red Shirt kids as Richard Freeman talk about, more men and, more men in K through 12, but I think a lot of the problem would be solved by just programs that would be available to both men and women. I think the biggest f- f- for example, if I get to pick one program, it'd be na- mandatory national service. And it wouldn't just be for men, it'd be for men and women-

   26. CWChris Williamson29:50

       Mm-hmm.

   27. SGScott Galloway29:50

       ... similar to what they do in Israel.

   28. CWChris Williamson29:51

       Because it allows you to, as a man, display competence, prestige. It makes you more attractive as a mate when you come out of that, it teaches you a lot of skills about orderliness and conscientiousness, it allows you to get your shit together, it gives you lineage and- an- a- a path toward making your life better.

   29. SGScott Galloway30:07

       Some of the lowest levels of young adult depression in the western world are in Israel, despite all the existential threats. And I think it's because, uh, and I spent some time with an IDF battalion. You got 120 young, beautiful men and women, they're fit, they're outdoors all day, they're not on their phones, they're learning to handle very dangerous weapons-

   30. CWChris Williamson30:29

       Mm-hmm.
4. 33:23 – 44:41

   Are Men More Emotionally Fragile Than Women?

   1. CWChris Williamson33:23

      I've got this, uh, short essay that I wanted to read you, uh, that I think is, is interesting when you talked about the, uh, levels of vulnerability, sensitivity, sort of balancing, uh, being in touch, not being sort of, uh, how do you say, pathologically stoic-

   2. SGScott Galloway33:38

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson33:38

      ... with also being masculine. So this is The Challenge of Motivating Men. "Some advice on how to support men. Men want to aim high without feeling insufficient if they fall short. Men want their suffering to be recognized and appreciated without being pandered to or patronized and made to feel weak. Men want to believe that they can be more without feeling like they're not already enough. Men want to be able to open up without being judged. Men want support without feeling broken. Men want to be loved for who they are, not for what they do. The tl;dr is blending inspiration with compassion is not an easy task. 'How do I set lofty goals which drive me to fulfill my potential without feeling less than if I don't get there tomorrow?' is a question asked by every guy ever. The desire for self-love and high performance comes into conflict inside the mind of everyone, men especially. Sure, some men are all driving goals with non-introspection, and sure, some men are all reflection and inner work with few external desires, but most men desire a mix of encouraged self-belief and understanding support. Inevitably, these two things come into conflict. Basically, every man just wants to hear, 'I know you can be more, but you are enough already, and even if you just stay where you are, I'll be right here next to you. You're going to be great, but you don't need to be great, and I'm with you no matter what.' Or, as said best by Sturgill Simpson's mum, 'Boy, I don't care if you hit it big because you're already number one.'" The reason I think this is interesting is we often point the finger at women and say, "Look at how hormonal they are. They change week to week. She says this thing but means something else. There's passive aggression and real aggression and subtext and..."

   4. SGScott Galloway35:14

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson35:15

      That's complexity, difficult to decode. This is something that men need to accept. This is a difficulty in decoding it that even they struggle with. "Men want to believe that they can be more without feeling like they're not already enough. They want their suffering to be recognized and appreciated without being pandered or patronized. They want to aim high without feeling insufficient if they fall short." Like, you struggle, man. You struggle with doing this to yourself. You have managed... You haven't been able to square this circle. So I think as men recognizing this complexity, which as far as I can see is a real, a real core one, if we're going to say, "Hey, the, like, drink your problems or deny your problems away thing that boomer parents did or do," probably not a great way to move forward, but we also know that the overly sensitive blob fucking labubu man-

   6. SGScott Galloway36:03

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson36:03

      ... like the performative male is also not going to be a particularly effective or attractive prospect as an eligible mate. So, okay, let's recognize some complexity that exists inside of men, especially men who are a little bit more introspective, who are the sort of people that listen to your show, listen to my show.

   8. SGScott Galloway36:20

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson36:20

      And, um, I think this, this blending of inspiration with compassion is not an easy task for us to do to ourselves, so then when we look for it in the world or from our partners or our friends, I think accepting the complexity is something that's really important.

   10. SGScott Galloway36:34

       Yeah, two thoughts crossed my mind. I really like listening to that, and I feel like what you just described, if I were to s- summarize it or distill it all into one word-

   11. CWChris Williamson36:43

       Mm.

   12. SGScott Galloway36:44

       ... it'd be dad.

   13. CWChris Williamson36:45

       Mm.

   14. SGScott Galloway36:45

       And that is, you just sort of described what I see as my mission and purpose as a father, and that is, my o- oldest is applying to college. So I'm at home with him yesterday, and we're talking about his supplemental essay, and we sit down and, you know, he said he was gonna finish it in the morning, and he didn't, and I'm all over his ass. I'm like, "Okay, you said that this morning. You were up playing fucking video games. Get your shit together. You're not 15." I mean, I'm, I'm on him.

   15. CWChris Williamson37:16

       Mm-hmm.

   16. SGScott Galloway37:16

       And then he writes it, and I'm like, you know, "Th- it's great, and the reason it's great is because it's you, and you're great."

   17. CWChris Williamson37:25

       Mm-hmm.

   18. SGScott Galloway37:26

       You know, it's, it's a little bit, it's a mix, and I think a, I think very few people, except a father figure and, or an older male-

   19. CWChris Williamson37:34

       Mm-hmm.

   20. SGScott Galloway37:34

       ... can communicate both those things in equal measure and have it really resonate with a boy. I just think there's certain things that men can do for boys that is very difficult for women and vice versa. So when I hear that, I think all of it is true, and I think the, the people who are most effective at delivering that type of salt and vinegar kind of-

   21. CWChris Williamson37:58

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   22. SGScott Galloway37:58

       ... love and inspiration and motivation and occasionally a swift kick in the ass-

   23. CWChris Williamson38:02

       Mm-hmm.

   24. SGScott Galloway38:02

       ... are a male role model.

   25. CWChris Williamson38:04

       Yeah.

   26. SGScott Galloway38:05

       And if you were to look at where, I think, uh, going to problems, if you look at the single point of failure, it's when a, a boy loses a male role model. But to even say that boys need men is to somehow, it immediately evokes this reaction, "Well, women can't raise boys?" And I mean, I was raised by a single immigrant mother who lived and died a secretary. Light of my life. But there's just certain things I couldn't talk to her about.

   27. CWChris Williamson38:31

       Mm-hmm.

   28. SGScott Galloway38:32

       Her sheer physical presence didn't threaten me. Occasionally you need (laughs) a deeper voice. When I yell when my kids are five and eight, and some people will say, "Well, you shouldn't be yelling." Okay, that means you don't have kids.

   29. CWChris Williamson38:44

       (laughs)

   30. SGScott Galloway38:44

       There's just, that's just, there's just a different-
5. 44:41 – 55:16

   How #MeToo Movement Rewired Male Behaviour Around Women

   1. CWChris Williamson44:41

      Have I given you my bit about, uh, the, uh, hyper-responders to Me Too? Have I given you this one?

   2. SGScott Galloway44:47

      I have not heard of it.

   3. CWChris Williamson44:47

      This is cool. This is fr- this is wet clay stuff, so go gentle with me on it. Um, (laughs) uh, Me Too advice was absorbed, uh, disproportionately by men.

   4. SGScott Galloway45:00

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson45:01

      The men who probably needed to actually be more confident around women took, "Don't be pushy," to heart. And the men who were just blowing through boundaries already disregarded it entirely. And I think this has resulted in nervous guys having their fears confirmed, "I knew I was too much for women. I knew that they didn't like me. I knew that I was already... th- th- th- th- this was crossing some sort of a boundary." And, y- you know, David Bussi's book, Bad Man or Men Behaving Badly in the US, uh, i- identifies this perfectly. It's not a thousand guys doing a bad thing each. It's one guy doing a bad thing-

   6. SGScott Galloway45:38

      You're alive.

   7. CWChris Williamson45:38

      ... a thousand times, and there's a small cohort of them committing all of the assaults over and over. This is why the, uh, "It's not all men but it's always a man" thing-

   8. SGScott Galloway45:48

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson45:48

      ... which hides it's all men, like it... The subtext is that it probably is or it could be or something like that. Uh, the same, "The Man of the Bear" thing was the exact same, the, "I'm not gonna go on a date because I might be unalived." All, all, all of this just sort of reinforces the dangerousness of men. But you might have seen these videos, uh, of really attractive girls in New York, mostly, doing stuff like stealing finance guys' salads. Do you see this video?

   10. SGScott Galloway46:15

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson46:15

       There's this girl doing her hair, really pretty girl, and she's saying her or m- her friends are stealing, going into Sweet Green and stealing finance bros' salads, looking at the name on the order that they pre-ordered-

   12. SGScott Galloway46:28

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson46:29

       ... looking at the name, finding them on Instagram, messaging them, and saying, "Hey, so sorry, looks like I accidentally picked up your salad," and in a desperate attempt to try and talk to them... There's another video, famous video of a girl, party dress, she must be mid-20s, blonde hair fully done up, big boobs, walking down the street, going, "I just want one guy-"

   14. SGScott Galloway46:49

       "To approach me."

   15. CWChris Williamson46:49

       "... to buy me a drink tonight." There's another one of a girl walking through Central Park, big naturals, no bra, skin glowing, and she calls it out herself. She's like, "What does a girl need to do to, like, get some attention from men? Here I am again, looking nice in Central Park, ready for nobody to come and talk to me." And there is a bit I see in guys and I s- I- I- I see sort of in myself, this sense of, "Well, what did you think was gonna happen when you said that the male gaze is toxic? When you said that, uh, any attention from a man to a woman..." 20% of Gen Z say that a man approaching a woman in person always or usually constitutes harassment.

   16. SGScott Galloway47:27

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson47:28

       Men already had approach anxiety. What do you think the pickup artist movement was about?

   18. SGScott Galloway47:32

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson47:32

       Like, what was it about? It was about ch- overcoming approach anxiety, the single scariest th- thing that a man ever has to do 'cause rejection feels like fucking existential pain, "This is the end of my genetic lineage." And, um, we had all of this going on at the same time that the T app was happening. So you had, in one breath, women who were very attractive saying, "I wish that men would approach me more."

   20. SGScott Galloway47:55

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson47:55

       And when the data leak from behind the T app came out, uh, I would say that the crossover between the, uh, rumor-starting group from the T app, uh, was not the same as the big-naturals, skin-glowing, party maxi dress, long hair, g- g- y- you know, nice, uh, girls from that. And you think, "Okay, so in one breath, you're saying we, women, want guys to approach us more. And in the other, there is, uh, an app that's number two on the App Store that is dedicated to warning women off of men-

   22. SGScott Galloway48:28

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CWChris Williamson48:28

       ... for how dangerous they are with s- substantiated and un- unsubstantiated claims." Trying to just blend these two worlds together, it did feel a little bit like the inverse of luxury beliefs, that I don't know whether many of the really attractive women would be on the app submitting their rumors. I feel a little bit like if you're not getting approached much by men, it's very easy to be on an app that kind of castigates men for what they've done in dating because it wasn't happening to you.

   24. SGScott Galloway48:56

       So, a lot there. Uh, so I've served on seven public company boards. And there was a, during the Me Too movement, I would say, it felt like a third of the time, but maybe it was 10 to 20% of the time, we were talking about sexual harassment claims.

   25. CWChris Williamson49:12

       Hm.

   26. SGScott Galloway49:13

       And it was almost always, um ... There was a little bit of, I think sometimes women feeling like they could grab virtue by being victims. I think some of the claims were a little bit over the top.

   27. CWChris Williamson49:27

       Mm-hmm.

   28. SGScott Galloway49:27

       However, that was the minority. The majority of the claims were simple. It was powerful men who had been, for too long, told that they could do or say anything with no repercussions.

   29. CWChris Williamson49:37

       Uh, just to, just to clarify, I think Me Too was an important redress to precisely that problem. I think that it was necessary. But it sought to sanitize the toxic elements of male behavior-

   30. SGScott Galloway49:49

       Yeah.
6. 55:16 – 1:03:23

   Why Male Friendships are So Hard to Build

   1. SGScott Galloway55:16

      downside.

   2. CWChris Williamson55:16

      Why do you think it's harder than ever for men to form close friendships? You would assume, perhaps...

   3. SGScott Galloway55:23

      I think it's a lack of third spaces, not as many g- people going into work, um, and also keep in mind right now, the entire global market has been connected to rage and isolation. 40% of the S&P by market cap is ten companies that are either in social media, online, or AI.

   4. CWChris Williamson55:46

      Hmm.

   5. SGScott Galloway55:47

      A big part, not solely, but a big part of all of those things are trying to do one of two things, enrage you, figure out your political leanings, and then serve you content that confirms your belief or gets you angry at the other side so you keep coming back and commenting. More enragement, more engagement, more Nissan ads, more shareholder value. We're saying, "Okay, I've given you five or six talking points for your interview with Scott. Would you like me to put them in bullet form? Would you like me to make them more funny, more provocative?" And you're just sitting there, looking at OpenAI or Anthropic for an hour or two hours. So now 40%... We talk about the S&P 500 in the US, it's not, it's the S&P 10. 70% of the earnings growth and the increase in the markets has come from ten companies, and those ten companies are in the business of attention and addiction and rage.

   6. CWChris Williamson56:34

      Mm-hmm.

   7. SGScott Galloway56:34

      So we've connected sequestering people, especially young people who have a more risk aggressive brain, we've sequestered them, we've connected shareholder value with enraging them and sequestering them from each other.

   8. CWChris Williamson56:48

      Mm-hmm.

   9. SGScott Galloway56:49

      So you not only have... 40% of pubs, and this is your business, 40% of pubs and nightclubs in London have closed down since COVID.

   10. CWChris Williamson56:55

       Yep.

   11. SGScott Galloway56:55

       Remote work is a big thing. People aren't going to church as much.

   12. CWChris Williamson56:58

       Mm-hmm.

   13. SGScott Galloway56:59

       So where do people come together, demonstrate excellence, and then they have the deepest pocketed companies with godlike technology trying to convince them, "No, no, no, no, don't spend more time looking at someone's face and talking to them. Spend more time looking at a screen."

   14. CWChris Williamson57:13

       "Come and talk to us."

   15. SGScott Galloway57:14

       So we are... I feel as if we're evolving a new species of asocial, asexual males, where they, we're literally planning our own extinction.

   16. CWChris Williamson57:22

       Well, think about this. Who does that leave room for? It leaves room for, yeah, sure, some guys that have got very holistic, integrated, uh, emotionally attuned, um, like, escape velocity from that. But it also leaves an awful lot of room for the residual psychopaths and sociopaths and narcissists and guys that blow through boundaries. So as you select out the cinnamon roll men who would have made great husbands if they'd just been given a bit of encouragement, what you're left with are kind of the Viking raiders that would have been useful at Lindisfarne in fucking 800 AD, but maybe a little bit less now.

   17. SGScott Galloway58:01

       So just to be equal opportunity blamers-

   18. CWChris Williamson58:03

       Mm-hmm.

   19. SGScott Galloway58:03

       ... we're blaming technology, we're blaming corporations, society, men who have-

   20. CWChris Williamson58:10

       You, you, blame you, yeah.

   21. SGScott Galloway58:11

       ... we've been seduced, we've seduced them or they've fallen victim to this notion they don't need to take risks. If you look at media online, basically, as far as I can tell, TikTok and Reels and the media have basically told women, "One strike and you're out as a man."

   22. CWChris Williamson58:32

       Mm-hmm.

   23. SGScott Galloway58:33

       Celebrates, "You are a beautiful, independent woman, wh- you don't need that man. Walk right out on him." And let me just, just spoiler alert, we're deeply flawed. Very few of us are gonna get it right. We're gonna forget to open your door. We're gonna maybe forget to order you the Uber. We're gonna may- uh, maybe not make eye contact with the waiter every time. I... And there's... The basic zeitgeist of online is, like, constantly telling women to exit the relationship, that if he doesn't meet the following thing, everything is a red flag.

   24. CWChris Williamson59:04

       Mm-hmm.

   25. SGScott Galloway59:05

       And so it's sort of, it's sort of, okay, media's telling men, "Don't be that guy, don't be a creep, come over here," the online gaming of porn, and with women, "You're a queen and you deserve better." And w- the advice I give to men, I g- I ask them very basic questions with men and dating. The first thing I say is, "Would you want to have sex with you?" Right? "Do you take care of yourself? Do you work out? Do you know how to dress? And if you don't know how to dress, find a woman or a gay man who can dress you. Do you have a plan? You don't need to be a baller, but do you have a plan? Are you kind? Do you have a practice of being kind to people? Like, would you want to be with you?" And the advice I give, and I don't coach nearly as many young women, is what I call a second coffee. And that is if there aren't sparks, I mean, if you really don't, if you don't like the guy or whatever, fine, I get it.

   26. CWChris Williamson59:53

       Mm-hmm.

   27. SGScott Galloway59:53

       But if it was just okay, maybe give it a second coffee. Because the majority of long term relationships, it wasn't, it wasn't Notting Hill. It wasn't like sparks in the beginning.

   28. CWChris Williamson1:00:03

       So you should be... I think you should be very skeptical of sparks in the beginning as well. Because what we assume is that that's something special between us and the person. What it is in reality is that person is sparky with everybody.

   29. SGScott Galloway1:00:15

       Right.

   30. CWChris Williamson1:00:15

       That that person is just-
7. 1:03:23 – 1:11:56

   What is Broken in Modern Manhood?

   1. CWChris Williamson1:03:23

      You describe manhood as something that we solve for.

   2. SGScott Galloway1:03:27

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:03:29

      What's broken in the current equation?

   4. SGScott Galloway1:03:31

      Well, there's a general notion that it's a problem that women, womanhood and femininity is a feature, and manhood and masculinity are a bug, and it's been really unproductive to conflate toxicity with masculinity, and I've been saying there's no such thing. There's violence. There's cruelty. There's oppression. Those are the exact opposite of masculinity, and, uh, you know, I've got this book coming out, um, you know, I try to... I think all young people need a code, and that is... And I don't think I had it, and I think I really struggled with it, and some people get a, a series of principles that help you make or guide you around the hundred dec- decisions you have to make every day, right? How you treat others, how you treat yourself, what to do when you face a difficult decision, and some people get that code from their family.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:04:19

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SGScott Galloway1:04:20

      Some people get that code from their religion, from the military. You can even get it from work. I think the first code I got was from Morgan Stanley, like around professionalism and how you treat other people, but I think there's a lot of young men that are what I'll call codeless. They don't have anything to hold on to, and I'd like to think that masculinity for a lot of young men could serve as a great code, but we need an aspirational form of it, right?

   7. CWChris Williamson1:04:44

      Mm-hmm.

   8. SGScott Galloway1:04:44

      And for me-

   9. CWChris Williamson1:04:45

      Can't just be, "Be less this, be less that."

   10. SGScott Galloway1:04:47

       N- yeah, not, not, "Avoid this, don't do this, don't do this." It's like, "Be this," and also lean into the fact that the majority of people born as men are gonna have an easier time leaning into masculine features. It's gonna come somewhat naturally. It's gonna feel right. It's gonna feel somewhat easy, and the three kind of legs of the stool are, one, a provider. I just think in a capitalist society, men are always going to be disproportionately evaluated on their economic viability. That doesn't mean you need to be a baller, but you need to be responsible. You need to make some money. You need to show a certain level of discipline that you can make money, save money, and be responsible, and potentially provide.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:05:24

       Mm-hmm.

   12. SGScott Galloway1:05:25

       Now, sometimes that means getting out of the way of your partner who's better at that whole money thing and taking responsibility at home. That's also, I think, a form of masculinity, but gen-

   13. CWChris Williamson1:05:33

       Challenging one to thread, very challenging one to thread.

   14. SGScott Galloway1:05:36

       Well, uh, I, as I said that, I even thought, "I'm doing what you say I do." I'm acknowledging-

   15. CWChris Williamson1:05:40

       Blunt acknowledgment, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   16. SGScott Galloway1:05:42

       ... the other side. 75% of women say economic viability is important in a mate. I think it's 90%.

   17. CWChris Williamson1:05:47

       Yeah. D- I mean, you've seen the stats. If a woman loses her job, there's no change in the likelihood of divorce. If a man loses their job, it's like a 50% increase-

   18. SGScott Galloway1:05:53

       ED drugs go way up.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:05:54

       Yeah, 50% increase using, uh, erectile dysfunction medication.

   20. SGScott Galloway1:05:58

       Look, there's just no getting around it. What I tell young men, "You gotta be economically viable," and by the way-

   21. CWChris Williamson1:06:03

       So j- just suppo- just pausing that, and I, I, I-

   22. SGScott Galloway1:06:04

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:06:04

       ... really want you to sort of hold where you're at. This... I had a conversation with, uh, a, Dr. Robert King, and he does this, um, uh, really great evolutionary psychology assessment of the female orgasm.

   24. SGScott Galloway1:06:21

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:06:21

       Is it a spandrel? Is it a byproduct? Is it pointless? Is it a selection criteria? What's it there for? It's interesting. It's not needed for conception, um, and he did something that no one's ever done when talking about this. He's very pro-woman.

   26. SGScott Galloway1:06:35

       Mm-hmm.

   27. CWChris Williamson1:06:36

       He did something that no one's ever done, and he basically says, um, the female orgasm is another selection criteria, it's another hoop that men need to jump through, and it's determined by, uh, sensitivity and dominance and skill, basically, like thrust skill, um, and I was like, "Well, you know, this seems very sort of judgmental in a way. It seems exclusionary. It seems like kind of magical as well." There's like-

   28. SGScott Galloway1:07:02

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CWChris Williamson1:07:02

       ... all of this stuff that you kind of don't control, like-

   30. SGScott Galloway1:07:05

       Mm-hmm.
8. 1:11:56 – 1:22:01

   Why Women Seek a Provider and Protector

   1. SGScott Galloway1:11:56

   2. CWChris Williamson1:11:56

      Did I te- ever tell you about what I wanted to do with a live audience? I was gonna go on some, uh, uh, show, some big American show, live audience thing, and I was gonna talk about the tall girl problem.

   3. SGScott Galloway1:12:05

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:12:05

      And I wanted to do a live experiment, and I thought this would be really funny. It's a little bit manipulative, but I thought it'd be really funny.

   5. SGScott Galloway1:12:10

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:12:10

      So I wanted to get, um, everybody in the audience, and I wanted to say, uh, "Ladies in the audience, would you be able to put your hand up if you would be prepared to date a man who doesn't earn as much as you?" And a lot of hands would go up. "Would you be prepared to date a man who isn't as educated as you?" Hands would go up. So-

   7. SGScott Galloway1:12:25

      So much consumer dissonance there.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:12:26

      "Would you be prepared to date a man who is, uh, not as tall as you?" Maybe some fewer hands-

   9. SGScott Galloway1:12:32

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson1:12:32

       ... would go up. And so, "Okay, can I get all of the women in the room to stand up for me, please, that are in a relationship? Or actually, everybody, uh, we can use your previous boyfriends as well, so everybody can stand up. Would you sit down if your last boyfriend earned more than you?" Thunk. That's half the room. "Would you sit down if your last boyfriend was more educated than you?" Thunk. "Okay, would you sit down if your last boyfriend was, uh, as tall or taller than you?" Thunk. There's no one left in the room.

   11. SGScott Galloway1:12:57

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson1:12:58

       I'm aware that I've stacked three things on top and I did the other one individually. It was a bit manipulative. But you would show, okay, here is stated preferences, and there are revealed preferences. And it's all well and good with MSNBC or the New York Times saying, "Oh, you know, like who says that you need to have a traditional blah, blah, blah?" It's all right. Um, "Tell me who you're dating."

   13. SGScott Galloway1:13:17

       You're fighting 3,000 years into it.

   14. CWChris Williamson1:13:18

       "Tell me who you're dating."

   15. SGScott Galloway1:13:19

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson1:13:19

       "What's your, what's your partner look like?"

   17. SGScott Galloway1:13:21

       Yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson1:13:21

       "Oh, he's a fucking-"... six-foot-two and built like a brick shithouse, who wears plaid shirts and hacks things on a weekend.

   19. SGScott Galloway1:13:29

       Well, a lot of it too is the online, the online dating world, it used to be people met, uh, met others at work, through friends, through family, through school. Now, the primary means of meeting people is online, and because you can't demonstrate excellence, it's not about smell, it's not about humor, it's not about body language, it's a little bit about persistence but not, you know, the persistence can come across as harassing, harassment. It's come down to a couple of things, very base things, your ability to signal resources.

   20. CWChris Williamson1:13:56

       Mm-hmm.

   21. SGScott Galloway1:13:57

       I work at KKR, I went to MIT, and oh, somehow my Rolex ended up on my profile picture.

   22. CWChris Williamson1:14:01

       Mm-hmm.

   23. SGScott Galloway1:14:02

       And height, height has become, you use a term that I wouldn't use, you use the term "big naturals."

   24. CWChris Williamson1:14:08

       (laughs)

   25. SGScott Galloway1:14:09

       The new, the new, the new term, the new big naturals for men is height-

   26. CWChris Williamson1:14:15

       Yeah, yeah.

   27. SGScott Galloway1:14:16

       ... because it can be objectively expressed-

   28. CWChris Williamson1:14:18

       Yeah.

   29. SGScott Galloway1:14:18

       ... online. And when they decide-

   30. CWChris Williamson1:14:20

       Well, even the Tind- do you remember when, uh, do you remember when Tinder did a, they did a, uh, April Fools joke, or maybe it was Hinge, did an April Fools joke saying, "We're now allowing you to have filter for height." They brought it in. They brought in the height filter.

Episode duration: 1:45:45