The Weird Mental Frameworks Of The Super Rich - Codie Sanchez

1. 0:00 – 8:35

   Is Our Society Too Contrarian?

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      What's a contrarian to you?

   2. CSCodie Sanchez0:03

      I think I wanna steal a quote for this one, which is Christopher Hitchens, and his quote was, "A contrarian is not one who always disagrees, but one who questions everything." And so my idea is in the world that we have right now, it's probably pretty smart to question assumptions continuously, and the humans who do that are the ones that win over time. Uh, I don't think the goal is to just be ornery or to counter culture, but to actually use your brain to come up with a formulation of thoughts that is unique to you.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:33

      Is that not antithetical to moving quickly? If you've got to question everything, super effortful, that means you can't make decisions quite as fast.

   4. CSCodie Sanchez0:41

      It's interesting you say that. We were talking about a mutual friend of ours, Bill Perkins, and Bill told me, uh, his two superpowers that have led to every single dollar he's made, and he goes, uh, "It is that I'm willing to take wi- risk, and I move faster than everybody else. So by the time they've even pondered an idea, I've already done it, made five mistakes, and learned five lessons." And every time I meet with Bill, I realize that's exactly right, and that's why he's one of the most successful people that I've ever met. And yet, I think if you don't question things, and you don't have a brilliant mind like he seems to, you're just gonna be on the wrong road path, and if you don't actually know the goal that you wanna hit, if you don't actually know where you're going, most people move forward towards things that they actually don't want in life, and I've done it many, many times. And so in my mind, if you don't question up front, then you might not actually like the answer you get to when you find it.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:33

      Mm. Yeah, the intentionality point, I think, is so important, and it comes up in dating. It comes up in business. It comes up in, where are you gonna live? What sort of lifestyle are you gonna have? How much success do you want? Ooh, that's a fucking big one. So this really cool quote that I saw from, uh, Nassim Taleb, "The world is split between those who don't know how to start making money and those who don't know when to stop."

   6. CSCodie Sanchez1:55

      Ooh, yeah, that hits home, huh?

   7. CWChris Williamson1:57

      (laughs) Are you feeling that one?

   8. CSCodie Sanchez1:58

      I'm feeling that one.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:59

      (laughs) Just-

   10. CSCodie Sanchez1:59

       That was kinda deep.

   11. CWChris Williamson2:00

       Yeah.

   12. CSCodie Sanchez2:01

       Yeah, well, I- I think he's- he's right, but thank God there are some humans that don't stop. Like, sometimes I think about, you couldn't pay me enough money to switch places with Elon Musk. There's not enough money out there. I am so glad that he exists as a human in the world because we get to benefit from the creations that he makes, but I don't think he looks very happy, and sometimes the person that I actually, you know, lust after from an exchange of life perspective is the person who owns a couple of cash flowing businesses, happily married, couple of kids, in good shape, has tons of free time, and is really close to their community, and, uh, it's not the person who has built multiple billions of dollars 'cause at the end of the day, what are you gonna do with it? And so, uh, unfortunately, I'm wired as one of those freakish humans that loves the game, does not know when to stop, and finds everything else pales by nature, but I do think he's- he's right, don't you?

   13. CWChris Williamson2:51

       Yeah, I- the idea of when is enough enough is such an interesting question, and you've heard the parable of the Mexican fisherman. You know this.

   14. CSCodie Sanchez3:00

       Oh yeah, such a good one.

   15. CWChris Williamson3:01

       Yeah, so for the people that don't know this sort of very interesting parable that shows there is a quicker shortcut to the life that you want by reducing down complexity, not overcooking how much you achieve, and then just going for simplicity in the first place, right? Rather than having to build an elaborate life to then eventually be able to afford a simple one, like the elaborate life is kind of unnecessary once... especially once you cross a certain threshold of- of income and wealth. Another cool quote about contrarianism, "A contrarian isn't one who always objects. That's a conformist of a different sort. A contrarian reasons independently from the ground up and resists pressure to conform."

   16. CSCodie Sanchez3:38

       Hitchens, right?

   17. CWChris Williamson3:39

       Naval.

   18. CSCodie Sanchez3:39

       Oh, that was Naval, good one.

   19. CWChris Williamson3:41

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   20. CSCodie Sanchez3:42

       Okay.

   21. CWChris Williamson3:42

       Yeah, that's Naval. I love the fact that when we're thinking about pushing back against conformity, like the average American is obese, divorced, with less than 1K in the bank, right?

   22. CSCodie Sanchez3:56

       Oof, yep.

   23. CWChris Williamson3:57

       Taking the normal route might feel safe in the moment, but it's actually a really undesirable thing to do 'cause you can see the- the outcomes that you're going to get.

   24. CSCodie Sanchez4:06

       You're exactly right.

   25. CWChris Williamson4:06

       They're there in front of you.

   26. CSCodie Sanchez4:07

       Yeah, I mean, I was reading statistics the other week about the- w- if there's one out of ten, uh, Americans that get to age 65, by that point, only one of them will be independently wealthy, uh, and by the time they die, uh, only one of them will be independently wealthy. We will have m- uh, I think it's two people will have actually died by the time they go to retire, so they won't even have made it there, um, the other two will actually be on government welfare or, uh, someone else's dime, like in their family, et cetera. And so what we have done systematically is not working if only 10% of the population actually dies with excess cash-

   27. CWChris Williamson4:44

       Mm.

   28. CSCodie Sanchez4:44

       ...um, because funerals are expensive. And so I think, you know, it was interesting, what I really respected about Naval, in many different ways, but I remember when he was first building AngelList, um, I interacted with him a few times on Twitter. We're by no means friends, but we interacted a few times after it had done- you know, been valued at a few billion dollars, and, uh, and I was bothering him and his team. I'm like, "I buy businesses all day long. There's nothing like AngelList for people who actually buy companies and wanna own total majority- majority shares, as opposed to just small segments of companies like VC. You guys have all the capability, just build it." And I remember I was kinda getting through to his, I don't know if it was his CEO or his COO at the time, and then Naval just came in and was like, "It is not what we do. We do, and we are the best in the world at serving venture capital style businesses and small minority shares."

   29. CWChris Williamson5:38

       Mm.

   30. CSCodie Sanchez5:38

       And he's like, "If we wanted to be everything to everybody, we would've never hit our first billion."... and I was like, "All right, sir." You know, and I totally, I get his point. Um, but to stand up when you have that much capacity, and capital, and see so many shiny objects everywhere, and continue to say no to the ones that don't serve you is a real superpower too.
2. 8:35 – 14:26

   How Successful People Remain Intentional

   1. CWChris Williamson8:35

      your, uh, h- how do you ensure that you're remaining intentional? Like, what's your framework for non-conformity?

   2. CSCodie Sanchez8:42

      Couple different things. Th- the first thing that, this is a friend of mine, Alex and I, um, he's, I sit on the board of his hedge fund. He's one of the smartest men I know, and he runs a, a multi-billion dollar hedge fund portfolio, and I remember, you know, we focus a lot on this idea of, how do we think differently than other people? Because if you invest just like everybody else as an investor, on average, you lose money over time to inflation. That is just the truth. Most humans without a financial advisor in the market actually lose money over time in the stock market. And what people say instead is, "No, the stock market returns 10% a year on average." Yes, the stock market as an entity that is not you individually. You individually lose money over time in the stock market, which is wild. And so when I started thinking about it as a numbers game with him, I realized the funnel to non-conformity is essentially this. It is, you have to continue to question the thoughts that you have inherently, you have to, uh, be off from everybody else slightly, and you have to figure out how to be right (laughs) . And those two things are really, really hard.

   3. CWChris Williamson9:44

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CSCodie Sanchez9:44

      To be consistently, have a different perspective, and be right on those perspectives. And that's the only way you can actually make money long term in the stock market, or really in just about anything where you want to be worth over $100 million. You can definitely be in consensus and make a million, two million, 10 million, maybe even 25 or 50.

   5. CWChris Williamson10:05

      It's interesting to think about the, the fact that you can't signal off what everybody else is doing if you want to get outsized results, right? Ultimately, if you do end up signaling off everyone else, you're going to end up with results that are at least comparable with what they're doing.

   6. CSCodie Sanchez10:19

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson10:19

      And I suppose that this kind of, at least in part, relates to you are the average of the five people that you spend the most time with.

   8. CSCodie Sanchez10:24

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson10:25

      I actually think that there's a better rule, which is, you are the average of the five podcasts you listen to the most.

   10. CSCodie Sanchez10:30

       (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson10:30

       Um... (laughs)

   12. CSCodie Sanchez10:31

       Can't imagine why. (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson10:32

       ... I think, uh, I have my ego knows no bounds. Um, yeah, but the outsized influence of the people that you're around, ultimately, you're still going to inhabit, uh, uh, encounter the same problem unless you and everybody else that you're friends with is on, on this insane growth trajectory. So, all right, so what's gonna happen? You g- you somehow, when you are at this stage of your personal growth, family growth, wealth growth journey, going to find four other people, all of whom are going to be, have the exact same trajectory that you do. And I think this is why there's definitely a degree of loneliness-

   14. CSCodie Sanchez11:08

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson11:08

       ... that I have seen to a lot of people who achieve rapid success, because it's very hard to find some people to come with you on that journey, because your growth is so, uh, rapidly accelerating. Like, who, what's the chance that you find somebody else that's able to come along with you, or maybe the person that you're with is moving quicker than you are? So I think what seems to happen is people kind of move through bubbles of friends.

   16. CSCodie Sanchez11:34

       Yep.

   17. CWChris Williamson11:34

       So as they're going on their journey, "Okay, I'm in this new bracket," and then, uh, that kind of falls behind, and then, "I'm in a new bracket," and then that kind of falls behind. At least I see that through Alex as a, a good example.

   18. CSCodie Sanchez11:44

       Yeah. No, I think that's exactly right. I mean, the sad thing is, and you, I, and Alex have talked about this before, I think, and he might have even been the one that said it, which was, "Other people want you to be just slightly less successful than they are on average." And, um, and I think that is a gross generalization in that...... not everybody is like that, but a preponderance of humans, because we're scarcity mindset, it's how we were wired-

   19. CWChris Williamson12:08

       Mm-hmm.

   20. CSCodie Sanchez12:08

       ... um, you know, from learning how to survive on the plains, uh, we know that if there's a bunch of other people around us, historically, there weren't enough resources to go around.

   21. CWChris Williamson12:20

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CSCodie Sanchez12:20

       You know, we had to actually be protective of the things that we made. Now, in today's world, in which innovation continues to allow us to achieve more and more, and there's actually ... it doesn't have to be a zero sum game, I don't think we have caught up here with what we know out here in the innovation sphere.

   23. CWChris Williamson12:34

       That's interesting. So, if you say, uh, if you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room.

   24. CSCodie Sanchez12:41

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson12:42

       But what it's also doing, that sort of a rule, is protecting you from being the person that's going to receive the ire and the jealousy and the backbiting from the other people. So, endeavoring to be the poorest person in the room or the most stupid person in the room or the least accomplished person in the room ensures that you're going to receive less and less and less envy or- or- or-

   26. CSCodie Sanchez13:03

       That's actually really true. I mean, we were thinking about it the other day, and I was trying to imagine a person who is really, really successful monetarily, if we want to say, who, um, actively trolls people and, uh, and is negative to others. And I can think of a few, right? You can think of, like, Elon Musk does some dr- trolling on the internet-

   27. CWChris Williamson13:22

       Mm-hmm.

   28. CSCodie Sanchez13:22

       ... the Paul brothers do.

   29. CWChris Williamson13:23

       Mm-hmm.

   30. CSCodie Sanchez13:23

       But why do they do that? They do that because it's actually a direct revenue line to a thing that they care about, right?
3. 14:26 – 17:21

   Choose Your Controversy Wisely

   1. CWChris Williamson14:26

      There is a spectrum where controversies and conformity sit on two ends of the line. More conformity equals less controversial. And yet, most of the wins in life land on the edge of controversy. Choose your controversy wisely, but choose it.

   2. CSCodie Sanchez14:41

      Yeah. Well, I think you can play this out most easily on social media, right? It's just very easy to tell, uh, once you have an eye towards frameworks, is this tweet going to do well? Is this tweet not going to do well? Depending on is it something that is slightly off from the norm? And Maya Angelou said, you know, "People aren't gonna remember what you said, but they will remember the way you made them feel," and that was this touchy-feely thing that she said that I never really associated with until I saw Twitter, and I said, "That is exactly right." The second that you can make somebody feel something on one way or the other, they are going to react to it, and often we humans react really aggressively without thinking about it at all. In fact, I've found myself doing it. Now, I- I sort of have trained myself not. But when I see something on the internet, you know, there's like that famous Tom Hardy little meme where he's like, "That's clickbait." Have you ever seen that?

   3. CWChris Williamson15:30

      Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   4. CSCodie Sanchez15:31

      "I know what that is. That's bait," right?

   5. CWChris Williamson15:33

      Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

   6. CSCodie Sanchez15:33

      And now we can tell why. Because if it's slightly off from the norm, it is going to attract our attention because just like if there was Where's Waldo and red and white stripes in a sea of people in green, you're going to note this thing that looks slightly differently. And I was talking to a room yesterday of a bunch of, uh, builders in some of our- our companies, and, um, they were asking me, "How do you, how do you build a personal brand and how do you tweet and know what's, what's gonna work one way or the other?" And, uh, I don't know if I ever told this story, but I feel like your audience might appreciate it or think this is terrible, but, uh, they ... I remember I- I ... We have a newsletter, right? So in that newsletter, I felt like our subject lines were getting really stale. I didn't like 'em. So I told the team, "I bet you $1,000, no matter what you come up with on this newsletter, I'm gonna beat your subject, uh, line." And my team was like, "Yeah, sure. There's like three of us and you're not really that involved in this, so let's go." I'm like, "Great." So, it's about landscaping or tree trimming or something. It's about tree trimming and-

   7. CWChris Williamson16:27

      Thrilling.

   8. CSCodie Sanchez16:27

      Yeah. Just so sexy, right?

   9. CWChris Williamson16:30

      (laughs)

   10. CSCodie Sanchez16:30

       And so it's- it's about making money with tree trimming and their titles were like, "This Guy Made X Doing Y," "This Guy Trimmed Trees and Had XYZ," and there were a couple of 'em that were slightly more clever. And I was like, "Now we're gonna AB test them." And I go, "Mine is, 'I Love Guys With Wood ...' Which do you think b- did better?" Of course, this one, slightly off spectrum, it's still true, so it's not complete cl- clickbait, but it makes you feel something when you see it, is going to do better. And so that's just marketing and sales 101, and that's also attention 101.

   11. CWChris Williamson17:01

       Mm.

   12. CSCodie Sanchez17:02

       Like, if you have a Tinder profile, you're probably better off having something slightly controversial 'cause I bet women would engage with that more often.

   13. CWChris Williamson17:09

       Like a KKK hood?

   14. CSCodie Sanchez17:11

       Probably not that far. (laughs)

   15. CWChris Williamson17:12

       All right. Okay. Well-

   16. CSCodie Sanchez17:13

       Let's not ... I don't know if-

   17. CWChris Williamson17:14

       Fair enough.

   18. CSCodie Sanchez17:14

       ... the Brits really know what was happening there, but ...

   19. CWChris Williamson17:15

       Fair enough.

   20. CSCodie Sanchez17:16

       (laughs)

   21. CWChris Williamson17:16

       Uh, "Reading as a Diet. Be careful what you read-"

   22. CSCodie Sanchez17:19

       Right.

   23. CWChris Williamson17:19

       "... it becomes the way you think.

4. 17:21 – 23:05

   Consider Reading as a Diet

   1. CWChris Williamson17:21

      Words are heard, then internalized, then repeated and then habituated. Curate what you let into your brain as you do with your body." This got me onto an idea I had a while ago about the content diet.

   2. CSCodie Sanchez17:32

      Mm.

   3. CWChris Williamson17:32

      So, most people, especially now, especially in Austin, Jesus, are super, super concerned. Is there seed oils in this? What's the amount of glucose? Tell me if this has been responsibly sourced. And like, it better be from an organic farm. Are there any pesticides? Did somebody that had the vaccine live within 10 miles of where this cow was, like, you know, getting milk drawn from it? Um, and yet, when you look at their YouTube s- suggested feed, it's just limbic race to the bottom of the brain stem, uh-

   4. CSCodie Sanchez18:00

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson18:00

      ... Ben Shapiro destroys, like, panel of leftists. Like, you know, it's- it's ... there's stuff that, the guilty pleasures that many people like to watch.

   6. CSCodie Sanchez18:08

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson18:09

      And yeah, it got me thinking about if...... the cells in your body are made up from the food that you put in your mouth. Your brain is made up of the things that you watch and listen and read. And given that, your content diet should be spirulina for the soul rather than fast food for your amygdala.

   8. CSCodie Sanchez18:29

      (laughs) That's a great line, by the way.

   9. CWChris Williamson18:31

      (laughs)

   10. CSCodie Sanchez18:32

       Spirulina for the Soul, bookmark, trademark.

   11. CWChris Williamson18:34

       There you go.

   12. CSCodie Sanchez18:35

       Yeah, I love that. Um, what I've found about reading is I can immediately see the contagion of greatness when I read it, and then I take action. So if you go and you read Charles Bukowski's best pieces, and then you go to write, your writing will be uplifted by this contagious effect of greatness rubbing off. I don't know what it is, I don't know if there is a framework or philosophy as to why, but I've found the same thing with looking at deals. Often, when I go to invest in a company, I look beforehand at what did Warren Buffett say in his last memo about how he analyzed a company? And you can actually, I think, steal from the minds of others by figuring out what you allow into your brain-

   13. CWChris Williamson19:16

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CSCodie Sanchez19:16

       ... and then applying that immediately to what you do. So it's not just in the ether all the time, what are you listening to, but right before you go take an action, if you're going to go into the gym, you know, usually maybe you're taking some sort of pre-workout, right? And then when you're in the gym, you're putting in some hardcore rap or whatever you listen to when you work out, you buff dudes. And then when you're done with the gym, you might go sauna or whatever. But the influence that you have right prior, if you have a giant donut or steak immediately prior and you listen to Lana Del Rey is going to be a different experience-

   15. CWChris Williamson19:47

       Huh.

   16. CSCodie Sanchez19:47

       ... than if you do the former. Why would we think it would be any different with any other aspect of our life? And so I have now applied that pretty aggressively to the very few things that I know drive most of my success, which is before I'm writing, before I'm investing, before I'm hiring, who can I steal from to get some of their intelligent contagion?

   17. CWChris Williamson20:05

       Oh, it's like an intellectual aphrodisiac.

   18. CSCodie Sanchez20:08

       Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think that's right. I still like spirulina for the soul better, but I thought that was good too.

   19. CWChris Williamson20:13

       We can keep that, we can keep that.

   20. CSCodie Sanchez20:14

       Okay.

   21. CWChris Williamson20:14

       We can keep that rolling. Yeah, I, um, the content thing, the priming yourself-

   22. CSCodie Sanchez20:19

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CWChris Williamson20:19

       ... who do you want to be around, I love, you know, I know that he's, like, an unspeakable guy because he promoted the fucking lockdowns or whatever. When I read Ryan Holiday-

   24. CSCodie Sanchez20:29

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson20:29

       ... and I kind of get this, it's much more pedestrian pace-

   26. CSCodie Sanchez20:33

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson20:33

       ... to kind of what's going on, and I imagine, as every man does, that I'm in the Roman Empire. Uh, I imagine that I'm walking through, you know, the Roman Forum or the Stoa Poikile below the, uh, Parthenon in Athens, and you just get this much slower sort of pace of life and pace of... I'm sure if I looked at my HRV, my resting heart rate would come down. You know, I'm just thinking about ideas, and I'm co- it's couched in this much slower, uh, slower sort of existence. And, um, I really, really enjoy that, and, you know, if I was to then go in and try and have a difficult conversation, I think I'd feel more resilient. If the alternative is watching a whatever podcast, like, we kick these OnlyFans thots out, like, "Can you believe what Candace Owens said to this," like such and such a person? It's like, all right, well, guess, like, what dreams I'm having tonight. Like, I want dreams... I, here's a good metric. Uh, me and George Mack have been talking about the difference between hidden and observable metrics, and we're trying to come up with some of the greatest hidden metrics-

   28. CSCodie Sanchez21:38

       Mm.

   29. CWChris Williamson21:38

       ... that tell you whether your life is going well or not. One of his that was pretty contrarian was the number of hours per year that you spend in a hammock is, like, a really fucking great hidden metric of how well your life's going, that, like, if you spend a good few hours in a hammock per year, it's like it's probably pretty good. I would say the number of hours that you have having dreams about the Roman Empire would probably be-

   30. CSCodie Sanchez22:00

       It's a good one.
5. 23:05 – 38:34

   Have Ideas Strongly Stated & Loosely Held

   1. CWChris Williamson23:05

      Having a strong opinion is the mark of intellect, but having the ability to change it is the mark of true intelligence. Only politicians hold one stance forever for fear of flip-flopping. We mortals do better to constantly experiment.

   2. CSCodie Sanchez23:18

      Yeah, I, um, I've recently spent some time with Vivek Ramaswamy, uh, the presidential candidate, um, and also spent a lot of time with, uh, other political candidates who are high up, named or won't name, and, um, and what I've been impressed by with, uh, let's say two of the candidates on, uh, one on each side of the aisle, has been that they played in the realm of business where numbers mattered and outcomes were obvious, and so you either win or lose in business. There is a scorecard every single day and every single year, and you only stay in business if you continue to win in the scorecard. And, um, and what I like about Vivek's perspective, I don't agree with him on everything, but he has changed his mind on many things.

   3. CWChris Williamson24:04

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CSCodie Sanchez24:04

      And what sort of business leader or human would you be if you couldn't change your mind once you had increased inputs? That would be absolutely wild. You find out X and you say, "Nope, already made up my mind on this," and yet, that is what we expect of our politicians often and our leaders. Like, "Well, this guy changed his mind." Thank fucking god. Thank God there is a human out here who continues to think not just in sound bites but in full nuance.

   5. CWChris Williamson24:27

      So, I've got this idea about the unreliable ally-

   6. CSCodie Sanchez24:30

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson24:30

      ... and basically somebody who's a mono-thinker that, uh, is, sticks rigorously to the party line-

   8. CSCodie Sanchez24:36

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson24:36

      ... that's ideologically pure-... they are very predictable for the future, which means that they make a really great ally, because you know that no matter how much new information comes to them, they're not changing their mind.

   10. CSCodie Sanchez24:48

       Yep.

   11. CWChris Williamson24:48

       So yeah. I, I can totally see why that would be, uh, a good signal that you want in a friend, but a totally terrible one that you want in a political ally, right? Because you don't know, what if the, what if things change a lot over the next couple years and they switch parties? Oh my God. You know?

   12. CSCodie Sanchez25:05

       Yeah. I think you're right. Yeah. We, we kind of talk about, um, choosing sides. I do think it's really important to have humans who will choose difficult sides but not have strong opinions once they learn new information, and so my husband and I always talk about the fact that, um, you can really... I think what you w- people want but they don't know how to look for it is, most humans, what you want is somebody who will stand by you even when the mob won't, when things are irrational somebody will stand by you because they know who you are as a human being. That is what we want in our lovers, that is what we want-

   13. CWChris Williamson25:40

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   14. CSCodie Sanchez25:40

       ... in our friends and in our colleagues. And instead of looking for somebody who has over time taken courageous stances, you look for somebody who has continued to follow set norms in order to put them in a box, and I think that's the mismatch. If instead we looked for people who, no, they took a really difficult stance on this even though that was detrimental, actually-

   15. CWChris Williamson26:02

       Hmm.

   16. CSCodie Sanchez26:02

       ... to their well-being, I would rather side with that person than, "Well, this person has done the party line continuously, and so I could assume the outcome here."

   17. CWChris Williamson26:11

       Two really good models for this. When was the last time... In fact, more, when was the last time that you heard this person change their mind?

   18. CSCodie Sanchez26:18

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson26:19

       Like, can you recall when they said, "I was wrong about X"?

   20. CSCodie Sanchez26:22

       Yep.

   21. CWChris Williamson26:22

       And especially if they, they're front and center about it. Secondly, how often do their opinions surprise you? Right?

   22. CSCodie Sanchez26:29

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CWChris Williamson26:30

       I think about so many of the creators online that are big, and I know, tell me something's gonna happen, Russell Brand's being accused with a, a Me Too thing. There you go, I know every single person in this lineup's opinion, right? I can predict it with 100% accuracy.

   24. CSCodie Sanchez26:46

       Interesting.

   25. CWChris Williamson26:47

       The most, as far as I can tell, good faith, genuinely intellectually virtuous people are the ones who every so often are going to do something and you go, "Really? Oh, you think that?"

   26. CSCodie Sanchez27:00

       Yep.

   27. CWChris Williamson27:00

       "Hmm. Wro- I don't agree," or, "That might be wrong," or whatever. Say what you want about Sam Harris. I know he's like the least cool guy on the internet at the moment and everyone wants to keep dunking on him, despite the fact he's not on Twitter he continually trends on Twitter, um, but I have good faith that he believes what he says.

   28. CSCodie Sanchez27:19

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CWChris Williamson27:20

       That counts for a lot. But the problem is, unreliable. Really unreliable ally, right? Third thing, final thing, is how many different problems does this person explain with the same solution?

   30. CSCodie Sanchez27:34

       Mm-hmm.
6. 38:34 – 44:04

   Our Over-Focus on Perfection

   1. CWChris Williamson38:34

      optimize. Wake up at 5:00 AM, meditate, work out, drink 72 ounces of chloride water and stand upside down, okay. Or, do none of those things, and instead focus on thinking clearly, intently and strategically before you pull any triggers. This relates to an absolute monster from Alex, which was, uh, your fears about perfection will kill you more quickly than your imperfections.

   2. CSCodie Sanchez38:59

      Yeah. You know, this was an O- OG one of mine. Often, I think if you want success, you should look at those who have had the thing that you already want. And so I was getting caught up in this series of noise surrounding all the shoulds that are in my life, that are actually not needs. And, um, and so I went to one of the people that I admire the most, which is, at least from a business perspective, Warren Buffett. And I looked at what his day was. And, you know, the motherfucker drinks Coke every day. Uh, you know, he's eating McDonald's, uh, cheeseburgers. He's, uh, not working out and hasn't for a while. And he largely sits and thinks and reads a newspaper every single day. And when I looked at that, I thought, "Well, he has basically realized that there's a 10 to 20% that drives the 80%." And so now, I'm in a thing right now where I'm trying to be healthier and work out more and trying to get a six pack and whatever the cool kids do. And, uh, and I have this trainer right now that I really like, but he has me, you know, tracking my steps every day, tracking my macros, uh, inputting a workout where I, like, ch- check the box and how much am I lifting. And what I finally said to him is, "What are the two things we could do where if we did those two things, everything else gets easier?" And my t- team gets tired of hearing me say this, but I'm like, "You have a list 400 lines long of to-do list items, just like everybody else does. And yet, you spend your time ticking them off as opposed to thinking, 'Is there one snowball in which, if I pushed it, everything else became easy?'" And, you know, for- for working out, for instance, there's one snowball, which is, if I just pre-order a set number of meals each week from the same provider, I don't have to track my macros, 'cause I've had the guy track it already and I know what it is. And you could do that even if you just ordered Chipotle every single day. And so there's no monetary reason why you wouldn't have to do it. And, uh, this tracking in the app every single day ridiculously doesn't have to happen. And it's the same thing for a workout. Well, what if I just do the same workout every single day, uh, or three rotations of it for one month, and then I rotate it again for, you know, uh, to have diversity in- in my training? And instead of that, we layer all this complexity, which makes absolutely no sense to me. And so, um, I like cold plunging, I like, you know, some lemon in my water, but I think we'll be fine if we skip it every now and then.

   3. CWChris Williamson41:13

      Yeah, and the concern about the over-optimization often gets in the way so much and makes you fret, "I'm worried. What if I- what if I don't show up sufficiently effectively?" I had, uh, Rhian Doris on the show. Do you know him?

   4. CSCodie Sanchez41:24

      Hm.

   5. CWChris Williamson41:24

      From Flow Research Collective.

   6. CSCodie Sanchez41:26

      Okay.

   7. CWChris Williamson41:26

      Neuroscientist, researcher in flow. And, um, he's brilliant. He taught me that if you're bothered about flow, the best thing that you can do as a morning routine is work within 90 seconds of waking.

   8. CSCodie Sanchez41:39

      Ooh, and that makes me feel better about what I actually do-

   9. CWChris Williamson41:42

      Yeah, yeah-

   10. CSCodie Sanchez41:42

       ... (laughs) which one-

   11. CWChris Williamson41:43

       It depends. I- I don't think that what he meant by work was frantically answer emails with lots of capital letters.

   12. CSCodie Sanchez41:47

       (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson41:48

       Um, but-

   14. CSCodie Sanchez41:48

       I don't actually do my own email, so I'm better-

   15. CWChris Williamson41:50

       Oh.

   16. CSCodie Sanchez41:50

       ... at that now.

   17. CWChris Williamson41:50

       That's good.

   18. CSCodie Sanchez41:51

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson41:51

       Um, but my point being, his thing is get up within 90 seconds of waking-

   20. CSCodie Sanchez41:58

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson41:58

       Right? Not of getting out of bed. Of waking, be at your desk.

   22. CSCodie Sanchez42:01

       Interesting.

   23. CWChris Williamson42:02

       Working. Especially if you need to do deep work. Writing, creative stuff. Uh, and I've done this on weekends, um, with my newsletter, which I do on a Monday, um, I release on a Monday. So I'll be writing away. And it seems to work pretty quickly. The reason, the argument is that, uh, delta and theta, uh, sleep and, uh, flow brainwave states are right next to each other, so it's actually easier to slip from sleep into flow than it is typically from daily, "I've just walked the dog and got caught in traffic," into flow. Even though you might think, "God, I'm- I'm only just awake, this is stupid," it seems to be the case. At least the neuroscience backs it up.

   24. CSCodie Sanchez42:40

       Yeah. I mean, there's a great book that I can't remember the name that talks about, um, all the varied habits of the greats and their morning and evening routines.

   25. CWChris Williamson42:48

       5:00 AM Club, Robin Sharma.

   26. CSCodie Sanchez42:49

       Right. And then-

   27. CWChris Williamson42:50

       Yep.

   28. CSCodie Sanchez42:50

       ... there was a- a New York, um, author as well that tried all of them.

   29. CWChris Williamson42:54

       Oh, God.

   30. CSCodie Sanchez42:54

       And then also did a YouTube series on them, which was hysterical.... you know, because it was, like, some of the great writers, y- you know, basically, like, got up at 3:00 AM, snorted a line of cocaine, started writing until they got so hungry they needed a drink, and then they kept writing. I mean, ridiculous, right?
7. 44:04 – 49:47

   Why Boredom is a Superpower

   1. CWChris Williamson44:04

      is a superpower. The best ideas need breathing room. They're a flower stretching for the sun. Clutter them with meetings and watch them die. Instead, he clears his schedule every morning with no calls prior to 10:00 AM. I do the same paired with two no-call days a week.

   2. CSCodie Sanchez44:19

      Yeah. I'm pretty religious about this. Uh, my team knows that I only take calls or meetings on Monday, Wednesday, Friday. I will substitute something like a podcast for a Tuesday, Thursday or a speech, but nothing continuous, um, because what I've realized is, you know, as you get more successful, you really have one job, and that is to find that 10% to 20% that drives the 80%. And it takes digging. It's needle in the haystack work. It's not stacking up haystacks. And what most people do all day is they stack haystacks. They do the same thing continuously every single day. But what do we know about normal? Normal equals results we don't actually want. And so, um, I find that if I do not allow my ideas room to breathe, I'm anxious, frustrated, kind of un-creative, and probably come up with more problems than solutions.

   3. CWChris Williamson45:08

      Hidden metric, how many hours per year are you spending being bored? I bet that that would be correlated with the quality of your life and your flourishing as well. More time being bored would be good.

   4. CSCodie Sanchez45:17

      I think they say that there- that is true. I wonder though. It depends what type of boredom, right?

   5. CWChris Williamson45:21

      Of course, by- by the definition of what we're talking about.

   6. CSCodie Sanchez45:23

      Bored in a country club, yeah. Not good.

   7. CWChris Williamson45:25

      No, yeah, not- yeah, not bored with someone giving a- a rubbish speech, a presentation at work, but like-

   8. CSCodie Sanchez45:30

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson45:31

      ... walking through nature, allowing your mind to flow as it wishes.

   10. CSCodie Sanchez45:35

       Right.

   11. CWChris Williamson45:36

       Pretty good hidden metric.

   12. CSCodie Sanchez45:37

       Very much so. And so what would we call that instead? It's- it's not really boredom. It's like...

   13. CWChris Williamson45:42

       It's not quite rumination. I guess imagination time?

   14. CSCodie Sanchez45:44

       Yeah, it's- it's basically when are you- when are you in a non-, uh, action-taking state? How often can you be in something where you're not entertaining and you're not taking action?

   15. CWChris Williamson45:54

       I had this conversation with John Lovell from the Warrior Poets Society.

   16. CSCodie Sanchez45:58

       Okay.

   17. CWChris Williamson45:58

       Big, uh, like, military guy, pro-patriot guy, uh, also big Christian guy, and he was episode 666. And I got a shit ton of, uh, kickback in the comments because people were like, "I can't believe that you put, like, John on episode 666. We needed a man like John to battle the devil's number." And I was like, "I did- I- it was just a Saturday, right?"

   18. CSCodie Sanchez46:18

       (laughs)

   19. CWChris Williamson46:18

       To me, it was just a Saturday.

   20. CSCodie Sanchez46:20

       Take it easy, guys.

   21. CWChris Williamson46:20

       I didn't think... But anyway, cool. Um, and he taught me this term, which I fucking love. I think you'll enjoy as well. It's called the tyranny of the urgent.

   22. CSCodie Sanchez46:28

       Oh, yes. Yes.

   23. CWChris Williamson46:30

       Oh, so good. The tyranny of the urgent.

   24. CSCodie Sanchez46:32

       And there's this- like, a quote or something that either he has or somebody else has about that, which is...

   25. CWChris Williamson46:36

       Oh, okay. It's not his? I didn't know it was an original.

   26. CSCodie Sanchez46:38

       Uh, well, I'll have to find it. You are the- you have the memory for quotes. But something to the degree of, um, if you let the tyranny of the urgent overwhelm the important, uh, you'll never achieve.

   27. CWChris Williamson46:51

       Mm.

   28. CSCodie Sanchez46:51

       Something like that.

   29. CWChris Williamson46:52

       Mm.

   30. CSCodie Sanchez46:52

       We can have the internet tell me I'm wrong-
8. 49:47 – 1:01:44

   How Much Truth Can You Tolerate?

   1. CWChris Williamson49:47

      intellect is measured by how much truth you can tolerate?

   2. CSCodie Sanchez49:50

      Oh.

   3. CWChris Williamson49:50

      Can you be told you're wrong, and that dress makes you look fat, and you're getting older, and he's smarter than you, and take them all in stride?

   4. CSCodie Sanchez49:57

      Yeah. My husband and I basically have a thing where something annoyed me yesterday, actually, and instead of typically what do we want from our partners? When something annoys us, we typically want the other person to just go, "Yeah, fuck that guy. Yep, agree. You were right. He was wrong." And instead, we make it sort of a purpose of saying, "All right, what are we gonna learn from this?" And so he gave me some feedback that I didn't really like. I was like, "Who's- who's side are you on?" And yet that practice helps us because if we don't associate with, you know, to get woo-woo because we're located here in Austin, we know that, you know, we're not our body because we can have thoughts that change as our body changes. You know, we know we're not our job 'cause our jobs can change. We know we're not the way that we look because if something terrible happens to us, we're still there. So if we know we're not all of these things, why would you let it control so much of your brain for you to be seeing one way or the other about them? And it's something I think about a lot because we're on the internet, which means our reflection is thrown in our face constantly, and often other people's reflection of themselves is thrown in our face constantly. And because of that, I don't think you can have thin skin and be on the internet. That's actually kind of a beautiful thing, 'cause you learn none of it really matters, we will all die eventually, and every one of us will be forgotten.

   5. CWChris Williamson51:16

      (laughs)

   6. CSCodie Sanchez51:16

      And there's such liberty there.

   7. CWChris Williamson51:18

      The way that that gets, uh, perverted is people go from, "It doesn't matter, I can have unbounded dreams," to, "It doesn't matter, nothing that I do makes any difference."

   8. CSCodie Sanchez51:29

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson51:29

      Right? It's the, uh, nihilism or cynicism versus optimism helicopter thinking seesaw, and it seems to be a- a bit of a knife edge between the two. Um, but I also agree that if you have a... if you have a partner or a friend or somebody who regularly will compromise what's true in order to tell you what's convenient or comfortable-

   10. CSCodie Sanchez51:52

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson51:52

       ... they are actually, like, really rubbish at- at... wh- why bother asking them anything? Because every single question that they hear is not, "What is the truth about this thing?" It's, "What do you think I want to hear from you?"

   12. CSCodie Sanchez52:07

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson52:07

       That's every single question is- is the same question.

   14. CSCodie Sanchez52:10

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson52:10

       "What do you think that I want to hear from you?"

   16. CSCodie Sanchez52:12

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson52:12

       And then th- you say that, and again, that's the- the people pleaser thing. What else have you learned from Bill Perkins? He was instrumental in bringing you down to earth in a pretty big way, I think.

   18. CSCodie Sanchez52:24

       Yeah. Well, he was funny. Um, I think our first interaction, uh, I consider myself relatively successful, and, uh, and so when I went to meet with him and I told him about some of the things we were working on, he had this line that stuck with me that I wish I could just, like, put on a bumper sticker somewhere, um, which was, I was explaining all these things we're working on. "We're buying these companies here and here, we're growing." And he kind of looked at me and paused like he does, and he's like, uh, "Cody, do you think that you have been investing in small businesses for so long, small has infected your thinking?" And I was like, "Pfft." And an immediate reaction could have been like, "Who are you? Fuck you. I don't know." Uh, and instead I took a pause and I was like, "God, there's so much freedom in that line." What if I am thinking too small and somebody else who has had a past history of positive performance says that? Then what mi- might I be capable of? And so I almost wish all of us a friend that pushes us harder as opposed to is the shoulder to cry on and says, like, "You know what I'd like you to do next time is something else." In fact, we have another mutual friend that I was talking to that did something really big and really successful, and, uh, and they came to me because they're a high performer and they were like, "What- what should I have done different? What should we have done different?" And I was like, "I think, one, and I want you to hear this, everything you did was incredible. I'm so impressed by you, and- and I think you should keep going." And then I said, "Secondly, there's this one thing that you did that was a mimic of somebody else, and what if that would have been a totally unique style to you? And that's what I want to see from you next time. I think you are capable of coming up with your own style that is totally copyable." And she was like, "God, thanks, because what everybody else said was positives, positives, positives."

   19. CWChris Williamson54:07

       Yep.

   20. CSCodie Sanchez54:07

       And very few people will tell you, "Yeah, but what if you could do this one thing? Not that you're shitty, but, like, what if you could do this one thing better? Wouldn't that be cool?"

   21. CWChris Williamson54:14

       Two stories that come to mind. First one, Lex Fridman, uh, was at some, uh, party neurodivergent degenerates at Michael Malice's house, and I was talking to him about... I- I think he was... (clears throat) I think he was saying that he had a lot of work on at the moment, and he was doing his robotics stuff, and he's doing the podcast, and maybe the Ukraine conflict i- was- was going on too, and he was just feeling it, f- like, "All of this stuff's going on," blah, blah, blah. And I was like, "Oh, interesting." And then he, like, took a pause, and he said, "I wish that my friends would stop comforting me when I say that I work hard."

   22. CSCodie Sanchez54:51

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson54:52

       Because some of his friends say, "You already work so hard, Lex. You know, you should go easier on yourself. Like, this is- you're doing a lot as it is." He said that he really, really values the friends that say, "Yeah, this is tough, but you're tougher."

   24. CSCodie Sanchez55:09

       100%. You know, even my mother, she had an incredible line to me. She basically said, and it's so simple but we don't hear it enough, "You just continue every single day to do the best that you can, and only you know what the word best is defined as." And most people put some subjective best, hard, good, bad on you, as opposed to saying, "I believe in you so much that you know what you are capable of, and only you can answer if you are actually living up to that on a daily basis."

   25. CWChris Williamson55:39

       Yeah.

   26. CSCodie Sanchez55:39

       And I love that because I actually think most humans are very capable should they apply themselves continuously, and work past a point that is comfortable or even rational.

   27. CWChris Williamson55:48

       Yeah.

   28. CSCodie Sanchez55:48

       And if you can do that, you can achieve very many things pending you don't want to be a basketball player and you're, you know, 5'1". Like, pending those things, you can achieve much. And that's part of the reason I'm so prevalent on the internet now is, you know, I made a lot of my money already in, in finance and doing the things that I did previously, and then I realized, ah, I want to make more money 'cause it's fun. I really like every dollar I make, but I think it's more interesting if I could figure out could I help other people actually achieve the same thing? And not because I'm nice. I'm really not that nice. But just to see, like, is that possible? 'Cause that seems like a more interesting and bigger legacy, actually, than just can I apply this one thing continuously? And so, um, lots of people who are on the internet, I think, s- people say one thing or the other about humans like us that talk about things publicly, and yet thank God that there are humans like you who talk about things like neurodivergent being normal, because I thought that just used to mean, well, you know, I have a little bit of ADHD, which means I'm defunct in some way. Um, and so, yeah, I think most humans can work harder, and they just don't want to hear that.

   29. CWChris Williamson57:00

       You're getting perilously close to Chamath's man in the arena tweet, which is gonna get you destroyed on the internet.

   30. CSCodie Sanchez57:05

       Oh, yeah. And I actually have actually used that before.
9. 1:01:44 – 1:13:43

   Being a Spouse of a Navy SEAL

   1. CSCodie Sanchez1:01:44

      then you can create somewhere where people want to spend 24 hours working, because society at large looks nothing like that. And you can feel the difference.

   2. CWChris Williamson1:01:53

      What did you learn looking around a room of 200 SEALs, 300 SEALs, what did you learn from looking at their spouses?

   3. CSCodie Sanchez1:02:03

      Oh, that's interesting. Um, well, the spouses probably fit in a lot of ways two categories. Uh, one category would be more traditional looking, sundresses, you know, cute, kids running around, happy looking American family. And the other were just as jacked as their, you know, just as-

   4. CWChris Williamson1:02:21

      (laughs)

   5. CSCodie Sanchez1:02:21

      ... as, as like, uh, strong and tattooed, uh, as their men. And so, um, I actually thought that was an interesting dichotomy, and you see that. Like, Gabrielle Lyon's a friend of mine, and she's a badass doctor, and also just like one of the strongest, fittest women I've ever met in my life.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:02:38

      Is her husband a SEAL?

   7. CSCodie Sanchez1:02:39

      Her husband's a SEAL.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:02:40

      Right.

   9. CSCodie Sanchez1:02:40

      Mm-hmm. And a surgeon. And, uh, and then, uh, Emily Frisella, Andy Frisella's wife, also just jacked, in great shape. Um, her husband isn't a SEAL, but, like, I do think that it seems like really strong, driven men that are team guys either want sort of the traditional spouse, um, you know, sundress, et cetera, or like a very strong similar person to them. And when I've gotten to know a lot of these guys, and I have a lot of respect for them and their spouses, there's two types of strengths there. I mean, the- the physically strong thing is really important, but you will not last, I mean, the divorce rate among team guys and special operators in general is incredibly high.

   10. CWChris Williamson1:03:19

       Is it really?

   11. CSCodie Sanchez1:03:19

       Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. It's the highest of any military. Um, one, because they're gone all the time, both training and deployment. Um, and two, because I've been, you know, through a deployment with my husband, and it's emotionally taxing in a way that we are not habitualized to. And so, um, you have to be strong enough to do that. I- I think I would've struggled to do it with kids. Like, I have nothing but respect for the women who have kids with men who go into line of duty every day where they could potentially die. That's incredibly difficult to live through.

   12. CWChris Williamson1:03:50

       What's the reality of being married as a power couple?

   13. CSCodie Sanchez1:03:54

       Hm. Um, god, you know what's so funny is everybody says it's really hard, and Chris and I kind of look at each other every day, and we're like, "Best part of my day right now." Like, we wake up in the morning, you know what I actually do in the morning? I don't get in the cold plunge first. Chris and I snuggle like little nerds for like five or 20 minutes. We're just like snuggling, talking to each other. The dog gets into the bed. The dog's a little tiny thing, not even a cool looking team guy dog. And uh, and he's, you know, my person who's somebody that I can just trust and rely on, and I think I'm that for him too. We loved the quote, I remember in the beginning when we were first dating, didn't age well because I think it was Jeff Bezos who said, uh, "I married my wife because I wanted somebody who could get me out of a third world prison at any point." Uh, but, uh, we always kind of associated with that. You know, our thing is it's us against the world. And so, um, I think that's the one truth of being a power couple. I- I don't know any different because I've always worked, so I've never been... And my- my, you know, husband, he's always worked, and most of my significant others were powerful and successful in a traditional sense. Um, but one of the most incredible things I think when you find another human who is striving for something is you really can track on what's going on in your lives, and- and there's a lot you can share. Whereas, at least from my perspective, if I was with a man who wasn't working very hard, uh, in a job, in some way, shape or form, it's harder for us to be on the same page, and I end up having to talk with a lot of other people about the thing I'm obsessing on all day long, and I never really understood how people could be with s- Like, the trophy wife thing never really made sense to me. A trophy girlfriend makes a lot of sense. Trophy boyfriend makes a lot of sense. A wife or husband doesn't to me because what would you talk about? Do you guys just look at each other all day? Like, what's happening there? And so I actually think that's really shallow and we should all strive to be the best versions of ourself. Not to mention, do you remember that, um, there was a blog post a million years ago where the guy was, like really brutally said, "Why would I ever have a trophy wife or a trophy husband..." He was talking about a trophy wife. Um, and he's like, "And- and marry that person for just their looks when your looks are definitely going depreciate over time and my assets will appreciate over time?" And at the time I remember being like, "Yeah, fuck that guy." And then I was like, "Well, also kind of true. Makes a lot of sense if all we're talking about is the way you look. That's pretty shallow." And so I don't have a lot of complaints, and I think I wouldn't last very long with somebody who wasn't striving right alongside me.

   14. CWChris Williamson1:06:31

       What... Th- the, there's a lot of talk and narrative on the internet about the sort of alpha polarity, the, you- you know, super masculine guy with the very feminine woman, there must be a leader, there must be a follower. What is the dynamic like given that you are two leaders?

   15. CSCodie Sanchez1:06:49

       Yeah. Uh, I sort of have this theory, and we'll see if it plays out. You had the girlboss #MeToo movement, right? "Women power, fuck guys, we don't need you." Then you had the alpha man movement. You know, "Get behind me. I'm the protector. I'm in charge. You know, women stay home in your gardens." And I think in the future what we're gonna come back to, which is what we do every time we have massive pendulers- pendulum swings, is like, "Uh, yeah, why don't we both kind of chill out in the middle?" Like, that seems like typically where we go. And I think there will be not an alpha power couple, but a, "What if we both just realized that we're nuanced humans and we look for somebody who could actually support us continuously?" A bunch of the guys that have that alpha woman-... movement saying got divorced. Like, one of the main guys who was like, "You must protect your family, you know, do whatever," a- and had a, a woman that was sort of this other thing, gets a divorce. The other guy who's a big proponent of it, like Andrew Tate, not fucking married. So, like, the people who are talking about this alpha man movement, tssh, let's scoreboard it. Let's see over time does this work out for you. And I'm a big proponent of you should do whatever you want, but I think I'm good friends with the Hormozis because I watch them have each other's back through time, and that seems to me more sustainable than the other way around.

   16. CWChris Williamson1:08:07

       Because-

   17. CSCodie Sanchez1:08:07

       What do you think?

   18. CWChris Williamson1:08:08

       Uh, so I think that there is a significant cohort of women who are, like you, attracted to guys who have excellence-

   19. CSCodie Sanchez1:08:19

       Mm-hmm.

   20. CWChris Williamson1:08:20

       ... but don't have that same drive themselves.

   21. CSCodie Sanchez1:08:23

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CWChris Williamson1:08:23

       I don't think that the reverse is quite as true for men.

   23. CSCodie Sanchez1:08:27

       Yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson1:08:27

       I don't think you're going to find a normal dude who, uh, chugs away at a perfectly acceptable job but is like, "Do you know, I really get turned on by, like, boss bitch women-"

   25. CSCodie Sanchez1:08:40

       Yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson1:08:40

       "... that are, like, you know, like, high-powered lawyers and stuff."

   27. CSCodie Sanchez1:08:43

       Yeah.

   28. CWChris Williamson1:08:43

       Because the socioeconomic status of a woman doesn't matter as much to a man on average as it does in reverse.

   29. CSCodie Sanchez1:08:49

       Mm-hmm.

   30. CWChris Williamson1:08:49

       So I think that ultimately being competent as a man... And this is, you know, to cut through three and a half years of learning evolutionary psychology, whether it be status, whether it be resources, whether it be looks, whether it be height, whether it be being funny, whether it be being charming or whatever, like, just portraying competence, right? But competence comes on both sides of the equation.

Episode duration: 2:11:26