Modern WisdomThese Horror Stories Will Send Chills Down Your Spine - MrBallen (4K)
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,169 words- 0:00 – 4:14
From Navy SEAL to Storyteller
- CWChris Williamson
MrBallen, welcome to the show.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Thank you for having me.
- CWChris Williamson
How does a Navy SEAL end up telling scary stories on the internet?
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
(laughs) I still don't even know. Uh, yeah, I- I kind of fell backwards into it, actually. Um, the- the short version is, I was experimenting with social media content after I was out of the military, just because it was interesting to me. I saw there were all these new brands and people kind of blowing up on social media, and I was kinda struggling to find my way as a civilian again. And so I was like, "Oh, I'll just- I'll try social media," and I- I, uh, I tried a bunch of stuff that didn't work, very cringey, you know, like attempts at comedy and- and all these different things. Um, and then I- I remember I had these- I had these two documents on my computer of- of ideas for- for TikToks at the time, is what I was doing. This is like, uh, early 2020. And I had this one document that I had exhausted all these different, you know, ideas for TikToks, ranging from sketch comedy to all these goofy things that didn't work. And I had this other document and it just said Dyatlov Pass on it. And so me personally, John Allen, the person, I like to watch and consume strange, dark and mysterious content, you know, spooky, you know, non-fiction content. And the Dyatlov Pass is- is this story about these hikers who go missing in the 1950s, and it's this famous unsolved case. Basically, these nine hikers vanish and they're found again and they're- they're in different stages of decay and their bodies are radioactive and their clothes are half on and half off, and it's- and there's these totally unsettling pictures, and I- I was like, "Well, I've tried all these different things on this side. This- this document has been exhausted and didn't- didn't work. I guess I'll take a shot in the dark on this totally random, like, departure from any other type of content I had ever tried." And it was a total, like, "I just don't care how it goes." I- I'm clearly not able to hit the mark on social media. I'm just gonna do the one thing that I personally enjoy, and I was at this water park in Pennsylvania, this indoor water park, uh, called, uh, Great Wolf Lodge in Pennsylvania with my wife and my three kids, and I- I shoot this six- 60 second Dyatlov Pass TikTok where they're- it was crappily made, you know, I'm kinda like winging it, telling the story, 60 seconds long, and I post it. Because I'm going to the indoor water park, I didn't wanna have my phone, so I just left it in the room and went to the water park. And then when I came back a couple hours later, my phone was basically not working because it was getting so many notifications. There was like five million views on this video after- after only a few hours. And for- for reference, I've- I had never gone even close to viral before in any way. It was like, you know, 10,000 views over a year was like a really big deal. And now, you know, it's- the- the internet has tuned in. And admittedly, I didn't think... I- I wasn't like, "Oh, here's a career now," but I was like, "That was pretty fun. That was pretty cool." And I like making those- those stories, and I- I just went on a tear making content, having no idea where it would go, and it turned into MrBallen.
- CWChris Williamson
Where did the name come from?
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
I used to have a username that was JohnBAllen416 w- but- but no punctuation, and so if you glanced at it, it looks like JohnBallen, not... You wouldn't think, "Oh, that's JohnBAllen."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
And there was a time when I was doing my cringey attempts at social media content that was not working, uh, but I was talking about being a SEAL to some degree, being a Navy SEAL. And the thing about special operations is, the people that want to become special operators, it's very common for them to reach out to either active duty or retired special operators just to get the lay of the land, you know, tell me what- what it was like to tr- what- what'd you do to train, you know, what was training like. And so I had all these kids messaging me on Instagram on my JohnBAllen416 username, but they were like so respectful-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
...because they're talking to what they wanna do and it... I'd get these DMs that would say, "Dear MrBallen, I have a question-"
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
"...about being a Navy SEAL." (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
And then I- I- I stopped correcting them and just went with it, like, "Yep, I'm MrBallen." And then actually, uh, early in 2020, right before I posted that Dyatlov Pass story on TikTok, I- I had been using JohnBAllen on TikTok and it got shadowbanned, I think. My... I would post something and even though my content was failing, it was like zero views-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
...and I'm like, "Uh, there could be a problem here." So I- I made a new account and I thought, "What better than- than MrBallen?"
- 4:14 – 7:24
Why People Love Gruesome True Crime
- CWChris Williamson
Why do you think so many people have a morbid obsession with real life gruesome stories?
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Mm. I don't know, but it's definitely pretty universal, um, at least from my- from my end. You know, I see comments constantly of people saying, you know, "I don't know why this is such a comforting thing for me to watch (laughs) these gruesome stories." Um, but that's just the way people are. And I- I think that they way we've- we've thought about it is, there's- there's real enjoyment out of being scared. I mean, just as a- as a person. Now, you don't wanna be scared and also be in like a- a dangerous situation. That's not fun. That's- that's fear because you might get hurt or something. But fear, when you're in a controlled environment, like a really immersive story where your brain actually begins to inhabit that story and you begin to feel the real feelings that the people in the story might, that's thrilling, and you have the same type of physiological reaction that you would in real life, but you have the safety.
- CWChris Williamson
The safety. Yes. Yes.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
And I come off, I believe, like a- like a really comforting host because I'm the former Navy SEAL so I got-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, right, yes.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
...you know, I can protect you, but I'm also a father, you know, and I- I, you know, I'm- I- I- I don't try to... We were talking before the show about hamming up, you know-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
...the- my delivery. I don't go out of my way to make it like really spooky.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
It's just like your buddy telling you a story. I'm- I'm- I talk like this.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
I'm covering stories that are dark, but I sound conversational, and so I think it's like a relatability and, you know, security to a degree, even though I think it's funny that I'm-
- CWChris Williamson
With fear.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah, with fear, and I think that... So your question was more about the- the genre. I turned it into, why do they like me? (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
No, I- I- I- I- I think both of those things are true. I mean, you are how many s- 8 million subs something on YouTube now?
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Big deal with Amazon, book coming out soon, merch line, animation studios-
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
All of the things.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Right?
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yup.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a big deal.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, and I think the fastest growing-
- GPGuest (unidentified third participant)
... category of podcasts, maybe over the last few years, has all been true crime in one form or another.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah.
- GPGuest (unidentified third participant)
Crime Junkie. I mean, think about Serial.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah.
- GPGuest (unidentified third participant)
What was it like? It was the first big podcast-
- 7:24 – 18:56
The Best Story MrBallen Has Ever Told
- GPGuest (unidentified third participant)
I guess we're in the right place for it, which is a very spooky house.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah.
- GPGuest (unidentified third participant)
Have you got a story that suits the surroundings?
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
I do, I do. I actually, there's a story, um, that I think is one of the best ones I've ever told, so I'm, I'm setting, setting some pretty high stakes here. But, uh, for reference, I, I told this one live last year in Texas to a sold out crowd at the Paramount Theater, and this story had a, a big reaction to it, because the twist at the end is something else, and it's house-themed. So, uh, in 2004, there was this guy named Mitch who was going to a university in Louisiana, and he's a senior, and there's this girl in his class named Kayla who's also a senior, and he just loves this girl. He, he wants to date her more than anything, and, you know, he's tried several times to, to, you know, woo her, but she's not that interested, you know, she's kind of playing hard to get, but she, you, you could tell there was something there, maybe, maybe she likes him. And, uh, eventually she does kind of acquiesce and say, "Okay," you know, like, "Let's go on a date," you know, and they hit it off, you know, Mitch and Kayla hit it off, you know, they're an item, and they end up graduating, and after graduation they get married, and by 2006, Mitch and Kayla have bought their actual, you know, white picket fence dream home in Louisiana, and, you know, life was great. You know, they, they loved their careers, they... Both of them were very intentional about spending time together on the weekends and really making, you know, their time together as a couple very important. And then by 2007, so they've lived in this new home for a year now, they have, they welcome their first child, uh, their daughter, and then two years after that, which puts us in 2009, they have their son, and then, then they're done at that point, they got their girl, they got their boy, and it's like life couldn't be better. You know, Mitch loves his job, his wife loves her job. They, they had this, this thing where every morning the, the dad would, uh, he would sneak into the kids' bedroom and he'd like spook them to wake them up, you know, it was a playful thing, and they always had, you know, family game nights on the weekend, and, and, and, uh, Mitch and Kayla made a point to still have those romantic dates, you know, anytime they could. They always got babysitters to, to spend time together. So this is like a... It's the American dream in many ways. You have this, this, this young family living the dream.
- GPGuest (unidentified third participant)
High school sweetheart, white picket fence.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah. That's the idea.
- GPGuest (unidentified third participant)
Two and a half kids, dog.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
That's it. So, it's 2009 and, uh, Mitch is at this, this little dream home, and he's watching football, he's sitting on the couch watching football, and, you know, it's just like any other day. Uh, and as he's watching the game, there's this lamp that's in the back right corner of the room, this, this nondescript, you know, you know, Target lamp, you know, it's a red lamp, and Mitch, he's, he's seen this lamp a million times, it's in his house, and he's watching football, but at some point, he, he notices something odd about this lamp, and he looks over at it, and for some reason, the lamp itself, not the light bulb, but the actual physical lamp, like the base, was blurry. And the rest of the room is in focus, there's plenty of light in the room, but the lamp is blurry. And so Mitch, he's, he's, you know, he's looking at the lamp, he's, he's rubbing his eyes to see if there's something in his eyes, but still the lamp is, is blurry. He goes back to the TV, not blurry. You know, Mitch has good eyesight, this doesn't make any sense, and so Mitch finally, you know, he's, he's worried about this, you know, "Is, is there something wrong with me?" And he stands up and he walks over to the lamp, and as soon as he gets up to it, it's still blurry, and he touches it, still blurry, and he's like, "Okay, uh, I don't know what this is about." But he does the typical, you know, kind of dude reaction, like, "Eh, whatever."
- GPGuest (unidentified third participant)
(laughs)
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
The male denial-
- GPGuest (unidentified third participant)
"Forget about it." (laughs)
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
... of medical problems.
- GPGuest (unidentified third participant)
Yeah. It's like, "I'm probably having a stroke, but, you know, whatever." Uh, so he, he turns around and he goes back to the couch and just does his best to ignore the still blurry lamp, and so he's watching the game, he's watching the game, he's glancing periodically, but he's mostly focused on the game, and then at some point towards the end of the football game, the lamp changes. It, it remains blurry, but, you know, out of the corner of his eye, he sees it moving around and he looks, and the lamp with having not been intera- no one's touched the lamp at this point, but the lamp is now turned upside down, which is, you know, it's not possible. It's flipped upside down and now it's blurry. And so now, now Mitch is, he's looking at this lamp thinking, "Okay, huge problems here. There's something wrong. I, I, I might very well be having some sort of medical emergency." But for some reason that Mitch just could not place, he couldn't bring himself to call the doctor. I mean, this is a, this is a situation where you call the doctor, there's something wrong, and he knew it, but he didn't do it. Instead he just could not stop looking at this lamp, he's, he's not watching the TV, he's just staring at this upside down blurry lamp, and at some point that day or that evening, uh, his wife Kayla and his two kids, they come home, and the second she comes in, you know, Mitch kind of breaks out of his, his, his fixation and he thinks, "I should tell Kayla about this lamp. I'm having a medical emergency, I should tell her." But again, he doesn't, and in fact, he quickly thinks to himself, "I can't tell her. I'm, I'm, I'm gonna pretend this didn't happen." He kind of forgets about the lamp and he goes and he sees his wife and his kids and it's a normal night. She ha- she is none the wiser that he spent the day staring at a lamp that's blurry and upside down. And, you know, when Kayla came in, the lamp was not blurry and upside down. She's not experiencing this.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
So that night, regular night, you know, they put the kids to bed and, you know, Kayla and Mitch, they go to bed too. But then after Kayla had fallen asleep, Mitch is wide awake, you know, he can't sleep. And there's something telling him to go down and look at that lamp. And so Mitch gets up and he sneaks downstairs and he goes to the couch, and, you know, the light is not even on at this point, but s- even in the darkness, he can tell it's still blurry, it's still upside down, and he sits on the couch and he just stares at the lamp. And all night, Mitch sits on this couch and stares at this lamp in absolute silence. And then in the morning, Kayla gets up, she comes down, it's- it's, you know, during the week, so it's a work day, she comes down and she- she finds Mitch on the couch and she's like, "What are you doing?" And i- he kind of breaks out of it and he's like, "Oh," you know, "I wasn't feeling well last night." You know, he's lying to her. "I- I wasn't feeling well so I came down here." And in fact he tells her, "You know what? I- I feel so sick I- I can't go to work today." And Kayla's like, "You've never taken a day off from work, ever. And you don't- you don't seem sick to me. Like, what's happening?" And he's like, "No, I'm just- just not feeling up for it." And so Kayla's like, "Okay," but she's- she's thinking there's- there's a- there's a red flag here, you know? But she doesn't know what it is. And so ultimately, Kayla and the kids, they leave for the day and Mitch stays home and he just stares at this lamp. All day he is staring at this lamp. And by the evening when Kayla comes home, this is like eight, ten hours later, when she walks in the house all the lights are still off ex- except for the red lamp, and she sees her husband who now is not breaking out of his trance. He's sitting on the couch and he is absolutely focused on this lamp. And when she walks in, she's like, "What's going on with you?" No reaction. Mitch is fully locked in on this lamp, he's completely unresponsive. And so Kayla is, like, putting it together that, oh my God, something's obviously wrong, and so she- she grabs the phone and she calls the doctor to be like, "What do I do about this?" And she's at the same time kind of yelling for Mitch on the couch, there's no reaction, she's shoo-ing her kids away, you know, "Go upstairs," you know, "We'll deal with this." And so as this is happening, Mitch, who can kind of tell, you know, his wife is on the phone with the doctor, eventually he can't even hear her anymore. She disappears completely and he's left with just this lamp. And the lamp begins to change for a thir- uh, a second time. Now, in addition to being upside down and blurry, the lamp begins to grow inside the room. And so as it's growing, it's taking up more and more of his field of vision until this lamp is so big he now is basically consumed by the lamp. And it's at this point that he begins to feel this blinding pain in his head, and he doesn't know where it's coming from, and then he hears a ringing in his ears and then all he hears is just people screaming everywhere. And it's total darkness, the lamp is gone, and then he opens his eyes and he looks around. And he's surrounded by a sea of people that are all looking at him and he's on the ground. It's broad daylight, he's not at his house anymore and he's looking around at this crowd of, it looks like college kids, and he's looking for his wife and his kids and he can't see them and he stands up and he's- he- he doesn't know what's going on. And as he's yelling for his wife and kids, "Kayla," you know, he's yelling for his wife and kids, a police officer comes charging through the circle and he grabs Mitch and without saying anything he lifts him up, a grown man, and just runs with him to his police car. And the whole time Mitch is like, "I don't know what's going on here." His head's still like, uh, y- you know, he's still got pain in his head, he has no idea where he is, physically, he has no idea where he is. And he gets thrown in the back of this police car, obviously there's some emergency happening right now, and th- and the cop without saying anything he hops in the driver's seat and they- they- they start speeding down the road. And as they're driving Mitch just starts saying, "Where's my wife and kids? What's going on?" And the police officer was like, "Sir, you just hit your head, I'm bringing you to the hospital." And so ultimately the police officer brings Mitch to the hospital and they end up, you know, he gets treated by the doctors and nurses, but he discovers what's actually happened. Mitch was a senior in college and he got tackled by a football player and he hit his head on the ground and he was unconscious for a fraction of a second, like ten seconds or something. And in those ten seconds his brain constructed an entire life with a wife, with kids, with the white picket fence, the house. None of it existed. He never had a wife, he never had his kids, they- they're not real. And so he realized what had happened when he was at the hospital and he had to grieve the loss of people who never existed and it wrecked his life. He did this huge Reddit post, this ask me anything, where he tried to tell people what it's like to have basically lost your entire family who don't exist, and he said to this day he still has dreams where his little son will come running around the corner and he's perpetually five years old. He, you know, and s- and th- that was his life, and so it- it wrecked his life and it never existed. It was just a figment of his imagination.
- CWChris Williamson
Dude.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Pretty crazy, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Wow.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Have you reached out to this guy given that you've had some- you've given this story so much attention?
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And what's he like?
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
No, he doesn't want to talk about it. He did his AMA and that's it. The dude wants to disappear. He goes to therapy for this, I mean, he basically gave permission but doesn't want to be a part of it. I mean, he's trying to cope.
- CWChris Williamson
And he'll be about our age now or something maybe?
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, uh, for him, I mean, h- h- how do you go about dealing with something like that? Because th- to other people it's like, "Well, it never really happened, you know, come on," but for him it was like years that in his brain was implanted, i- an entire history, an entire family. I mean, that's real loss.
- CWChris Williamson
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- 18:56 – 22:56
Living a Double Life in a Coma
- CWChris Williamson
you know who Paul Evans is?
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
No.
- CWChris Williamson
So, uh, Paul Evans is one of the directors of a big, um, leisure company out in Dubai.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
He came on the podcast about four years ago. He wrote a book called When I Woke Up. So, Paul was a party boy, professional party boy, after my own heart. And he was involved in the Arab Spring twice. I think he was in Egypt while there were all of the revolts-
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
... that were going on. And he was partying, and he was kind of, sort of fast and loose with his risks and stuff. And he was, ended up in Dubai with pancreatitis.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And it was so bad, this is from drinking and partying and stuff like that.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
His pancreatitis was so bad that he was put into an induced coma.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Oh wow.
- CWChris Williamson
While he was in the induced coma, he lived an entire life in Singapore.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Boy.
- CWChris Williamson
He could tell you the brand of toothpaste that he used every morning, the colors of the ties that he needed to wear. He could tell you the route that he drove to work. And while he was at work, he was part of a team that was building out a new virtual reality game, so he would enter a virtual reality game in this thing, and he could tell you everything, every single detail, it's in his book. Could tell you all of the details about how his life unfolded in Singapore, the- the car that he drove, where he went for dinner on an evening time. And, he- this is while he's in this induced coma. So his family goes out to see him in the real world, and they're looking at him in the hospital bed. Now, in his life in Singapore, his father dies. So he buries his father in his dream world.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
And in the real world, his father is looking at his son, laid in this hospital bed, and there was one day where his dad was looking at him, and he could see that his son was crying. His son was weeping whilst in a coma.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Oh my gosh.
- CWChris Williamson
They think that that was his actual father watching real Paul cry because the dream version of him was burying his father-
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Oh my gosh.
- CWChris Williamson
... in the dream world.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
It's like some Matrix stuff going on.
- CWChris Williamson
And then he continues to work, he's got his life, he goes through... There's some complications with the virtual reality world that he's getting into, and they're really trying to push the limits of- of what they can do with this technology. And one day, he gets trapped inside the simulation. So he- this is like Inception, this is like he's two levels deep now.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah, that's the word, Inception.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
That's the word.
- CWChris Williamson
So he's two, he's two levels deep. And he's trapped inside and all of the people outside of the, in the dream, outside of the virtual reality world are trying to get him out. And he says it was like being inside of a membrane, and he could feel his hands, he was sort of running his hands across this membrane, trying to find a way to get out. And he said, uh, this went on for days. He was locked inside of this thing for days. And then eventually he managed to find a tiny little seam, a crease, and he could sort of pull his hand through, and when he did that, he woke up from his coma in the real world.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Oh my gosh.
- CWChris Williamson
But the weird thing, and I- I spoke to him about this, I was like, "You do know that you're gonna have to bury your dad twice?"
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah, wow.
- 22:56 – 32:37
Developing a Storytelling Style
- CWChris Williamson
your style and art-
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... of storytelling.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
So, how would you describe your style? Like, where did it come from, how did it originate? What did you do to develop this particular... And- and how would you categorize it?
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Um, (sighs) so I think that there's some necessary context. I- I grew up around professional writers and storytellers. My- my father is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, he worked at the Boston Globe. He ran the Spotlight team, which there was a movie made called Spotlight with, uh, Michael Keaton. Um, that's- that's like the type of investigative journalism he was doing. So, you know, my dad is this very high-speed journalist. My- my mother's also a professional writer, radio host, you know, when she was younger. Um, incredible writer. My older sister is a two-time Pulitzer winner, also a journalist at the Boston Globe. Uh, and my younger sister is a, um, a scientist. She's, uh, about to defend her dissertation, get her PhD to be a B scientist. So, I say all that because I was not (laughs) like a big time academic. I was like, you know, barely scraping by and honestly did horrible as a student. And, uh, but- but growing up, I was, I was surrounded by people that were incredibly good writers and storytellers. And almost, you know, unintentionally, I learned how to speak, you know, I learned how to tell stories, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
Just through osmosis.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah, real-
- CWChris Williamson
And some genetic raw material as well, perhaps. (laughs)
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
It's almost like, you know, I- I, yeah, yeah, basically. And, um...So I think that that is a big part of why I think I'm able to tell a story well, is just being around really good storytellers. Um, but I think in terms of my specific style, which I would categorize as, you know, not deception, but telling a story where I'm holding off details, not to- to make the story n- not accurate, but rather, uh, using perspectives, you know, o- inhabiting certain perspectives in a story that allow you to effectively tell an angle of the story, where you are knowingly omitting a portion of the story that's gonna come in later, that will actually answer questions the audience is gonna have. It's like I'm- I'm setting you up for an incomplete story that I absolutely fill in every single gap, but in a way that's not like, "And then I'm gonna explain it to you." It just, it happens, where we've- we've left all these holes and it gets filled in at the end for a big powerful reveal.
- CWChris Williamson
Use the story that we just went through.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Sure.
- CWChris Williamson
Explain to me how you've constructed that.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Absolutely.
- CWChris Williamson
Tell me what's going on.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
So it's really important to understand if you're gonna tell a really good story that it has less to do with the story and much more to do with the delivery of the person telling it. Now, that's not entirely true because there are some stories that are so outrageous they carry the day. But most of the time, if you're gonna tell a story, it's your delivery that's gonna have the biggest impact on the audience. And so for this, you know, I'm actually telling that- that lamp story with only you in mind. I'm not thinking about anybody else here. I'm really just gauging your reaction to the story. And so as a storyteller, I'm constantly trying to size up how my audience is reacting to what I'm saying. Um, but in terms of that specific story, I know that I'm building to a place where I'm gonna tell you that everything that happened in the story didn't happen. That's gonna- that's gonna be the reveal. But the best way to set that up is to not flag that there is anything unusual about the beginning of the story 'cause it wrecks the reveal. If there's any language whatsoever in the first 90% of that story that tips the audience that this might not really be happening, it wrecks the story.
- CWChris Williamson
What would be an example of that? He was in-
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
If I-
- CWChris Williamson
... he was in school and h- and fell on the floor.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
No, it- it would actually, it's- it's devices that a lot of storytellers use that I think hurts their stories. For example, I could say, uh, go ba- going back to the lamp story, you know, he's first noticed the lamp, right? And so he's- he's- he sees a blurry lamp. And so Mitch, he see- sees the lamp, it's blurry, he can't make sense of it. But what he didn't know-
- CWChris Williamson
Uh-huh.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
... is this lamp was going to ruin his life.
- CWChris Williamson
Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Now, that's- that's an overt example.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
But there are little things that people think are- are- are good transitions between the story, you know, like leading the audience to get ready, something big's gonna happen. But if you telegraph too much early in the story that, you know, "Get ready, something big's coming," the audience will just start guessing what it's gonna be, and a lot of times it's fairly obvious that there's some element to the story that, you know, is gonna be revealed to be different in the end. So I would also say there's just nuance to it. When I'm, for example, I- I added something into that story. N- it- it's part of the story but I usually don't add it in, which is when K- uh, Kayla came back in the house, when Mitch is now unresponsive and he's staring at the lamp, and he's not even reacting to her, whereas the day before he was, I made a point of saying that Kayla ushered her kids out of the room. It's a small detail, but it gives it a- a- a level of reality, that if you're the parent, you've come in and the parent's unresponsive, that little detail reminds you that this is a real human having a real interaction.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
If I don't include it, it likely has no impact. It doesn't matter that I, you know, whether Kayla did or did not shoo her kids away because of this crisis, it- it doesn't really matter. But adding that in and delivering it not as like a... I said it as if it absolutely happened, like it's factual, she shooed the kids away and then she dealt with her husband, that's telling you, here it is, this is happening. Like engage with the story, this is really happening. But I'm doing it, I want that, I want it to feel as real as possible in the beginning so that the reveal actually has impact. And that's why I added little kind of almost the- the- they had game ni- family game nights, right? That they really did. But that's an important detail to the beginning of the story because I'm gonna tell you it's all fake. So it's like layering in things that create authenticity in the beginning of that story is really important, because the way that, the way that story often gets told is y- people will start with, "Here's a story about a guy who hit his head and he imagined his whole life and then it was taken away from him."
- CWChris Williamson
The way I did it. (laughs)
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
He was in his, yeah, he was in his house and he saw this lamp and it was blurry, but it turns out that was the beginning of this psychotic break he was having. But it's like the audience, there's no, there's, that's the thing, is when I'm- when I'm telling a story, it's all about stick around because you're gonna learn something that you- you were not expecting. There's gonna be a plot twist, there's gonna be a reveal. I'm, instead of telling you that, the way I tell a story always includes a payoff, always. There, you, I- I guarantee you, you can f- you can look at every single story I've ever put on the internet, ever, and there's a payoff at the end that is absolutely intentional. And so your audience begins to believe, begins to know that's what they get. Yeah, there's loads of details and I'm not really sure where this is going, but if I stick around, something big is gonna happen. And I did that without even telling you it, it's just the way I tell the story.
- 32:37 – 36:47
Biggest Mistakes in Telling a Great Story
- CWChris Williamson
What do you see when you look at other people telling stories? This can be, uh, as part of presentations-
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Sure.
- CWChris Williamson
This can be true crime, it can be whatever you want. What are the biggest mistakes, or what do people get wrong when it comes to telling a good story?
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Honestly, it's, it's pretty straightforward, and it is giving away too much at the beginning. If, if you think about it, you know, in the, in the true crime world, let's say, or in those kind of strange, dark, and mysterious world, there's loads of mysterious stories, where, you know, there's, there's some element of, of mystery surrounding it. But in, in true crime, you know, the, uh... Wha- what was the question again? I just spaced on that.
- CWChris Williamson
How do other people get it wrong?
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Okay, that's it. So, even if a story is not inherently a mystery, like any random story you tell your friend, people, people are, are listening to a story and they're invested in a story if there's some kind of payoff, meaning a mystery is solved or y- ... Th- they want something to come out of the story, they want some, some sort of... They want... Yeah, they want a mystery to be solved, if you will. And if you open a story with the conclusion, even if it's just some nonsense story, like the person who's listening might not be that invested in it anymore, you know? So I think that s- opening with your conclusion, in the journalistic, in, in, in journalism, that's what you actually do. If you read a newspaper-
- CWChris Williamson
Headline.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
... article, yeah, headline, "Here's what happened," and now let's break it down. But from an engaging storytelling perspective, doing the opposite is absolutely the way, where you don't give away the ending until the ending.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. Yeah. I read a... This is for the people who maybe intend on reading The Silent Patient by Andrew Michaelides, jump forward by about one minute. Um, I read this book, it's kind of going everywhere at the moment, psychological thriller. It is a woman who, uh, appears to have killed her partner, and a psychotherapist that's working with her. She's completely silent, she won't speak, she's not... U- unresponsive, and he is trying to work out and, and unfold what happened with her. And it's... The whole story is just this tension. His life's kind of falling apart, lots of unnecessary detail-
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
... all of this stuff, and it's like, it's a full book, and it's the penultimate chapter or the chapter before, and it turns out the woman that she was so scared of all along that she's writing about in her diary turns out to be the therapist that's then working with her afterward, and he's got this strange obsession with her-
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Oh, wow.
- CWChris Williamson
... and his wife was cheating on him with her husband, so her life's all being intertwined over and over again. And he's kind of in this weird fugue state, but the reveal comes through a diary. Uh, I've got the-
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Oh, wow.
- CWChris Williamson
I've got, dude, goosebumps.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
So good. There's this one line where you realize he's put this balaclava on, and he's walking in behind her, and you go, "Thi- this is the guy-
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Full circle moment.
- CWChris Williamson
... that she's been writing about." Yeah, so it's so satisfying-
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that payoff. And, you know, to break the fourth wall around, uh, anyone that's watched a MrBeast video, MrBeast does these, uh, videos where it'll be like, um, "I'm going to stay in a $1 hotel all the way up to a-
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yep, great video, by the way. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... a, a $100,000 hotel or whatever it might be.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
The reason that you do that is that the biggest payoff is at the end.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
And one of the things that... First off, from a, like, dopaminergic perspective, you, like drag it out.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That's why we'll, we will release at least two clips from this episode before the actual episode is available.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah.
- 36:47 – 39:15
Audience Reactions at Live Shows
- CWChris Williamson
what happens when you tell that lamp story to a room of 1,500 people?
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
A lot of gasping-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
... e- 'cause e- e- when I, when I told that one live, uh, I think that I did, I did such a good job, like ha- I had a really dramatic pause before I said what happened. And I, I remember looking out, and it was probably the first time in the show where I really took stock of the people there, 'cause before I'm, "This is my first ever live show," and I'm, like, blacked out, I'm so nervous.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
But I looked out, and not a soul was on their phone, they were just like-... waiting for this big reveal, that they- they've sat here and they're waiting for the payoff.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
And then when I said, you know, it didn't happen, it was all fictional, it was like (gasps) . And it was like, "Wow, I did it." Like, that was cool.
- CWChris Williamson
That's something... See, uh, watching a comedy special on your own in your house.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, you- if it's really funny or if you're prone to laughter, you laugh, but if you're on your own, usually I find it kinda hard.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It needs to be an insane comedy special to do that.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
It should be something pretty good.
- CWChris Williamson
And if it's you and a couple of your boys, like if one of them starts, then you'll maybe have a little giggle yourself.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And then if you're at a live comedy show, it's more, and then if you're in a big theater, it's probably even more than that. But... And you also get, I guess, at, um, at live music gigs, like the DJ drops some insane song-
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Oh, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... and the crowd gives a (imitates crowd going wild) , like you know, their hands in the air-
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
(laughs) Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... the lasers come on, all that stuff. One of the things that I've- I don't think I've ever seen live is, like, psychological satisfaction. Do you know what I mean?
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Like that, like (gasps) re- realization.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Live. Um, maybe in the cinema.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You know, when I'm reading The Silent Patient-
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... it's not like I have this- 1,499 other people-
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
(laughs)
- 39:15 – 49:45
The Story With the Biggest Reaction
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
I'll tell another quick story.
- CWChris Williamson
Fire away.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Let's do it. I got another one that- that- this one... So, somebody bootlegged, like filmed a portion of this live show I did last year, which is fine, I'm not gonna do anything about it. Um, because, anyways, so there's a portion they filmed where I got to see, on this video, the actual reaction to this one particular reveal. Um, and- and it was, like, so much. It was way more than the lamp, frankly. Th- this one, it- because it's so weird. Anyways, I'll- I haven't prepped this one, but I know it really well, so I can get it close.
- CWChris Williamson
Hit it.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
All right, so it was in 2011, and there's this woman named Ellie Lobell. She's 42 years old, and she decided, I think it was December 11th, 2011, she decided, "Enough is enough, it's time for me to die." So, Ellie, her background was she was brilliant. I mean, she went to an Ivy League school, I think it was. She- she had her PhD by 18, and then she got into, I think, consulting. I forget what her job was, but it was, like a hyper successful woman, like hyper successful, killing it, like crazy salary. But she came down with this mysterious illness sometime in her, I want to say her 30s, I think early 30s. So she's 42. It was late 20s, she comes down with this illness. And she's- she's married, she's got kids, she lives in Southern California. And it wasn't like the illne- the doc- doc- doctors didn't even know what the illness was. She was just, like, fatigued and, you know, she didn't feel that good, but there was nothing specific. And so every time she would go to the doctor, the doctors would run a battery of tests and basically say, "Oh, you know, you're low on this vitamin," or, "You need more sunlight," or, "You need this, you need that." Like, there wasn't anything specific. It was just kind of this malaise she had where she just always felt kinda down. But for years and years, she just always felt terrible. And it started affecting her career, and she had to step back from her career. And then actually she got this, like, horrible divorce with her husband, who frankly, if I'm being candid, sounds like he was kind of a jerk, because he immediately was like, "All right, I'm out of here now that you're sick." So they split up, and so she's, you know, she's raising her kids on her own, she's got this chronic illness, and- and it's getting worse. You know, not- not in leaps and bounds, but it's definitely not improving. She's becoming more and more ill, she's spending more days in bed. Um, and so finally, come December 11th, 2011, uh, by this point her kids have moved out of the house. They are, you know, successful, they're in their 20s. You know, they- they have their partners, they have their jobs. And, you know, she's- she's still single, and she's just at the end of her ability to cope with whatever was going on with her. And she decided, "You know what? I'm done. I- I wanna go die." And so she actually hired an end of life care person. I forget the title. I forget specifically what this job is, but you can hire people to basically be with you while you die, uh, like you end your life. Um, and for what it's worth, it's important to note that by this point in 2011, doctors had told her that, like, "Your organs are actually starting to shut down, and frankly if you were to kind of mentally let go, there's a pretty good chance your body would shut down. Like, it's kind of on you at this point to keep going." And so she thought, "I'll just go to- I'll go to an Airbnb in a beautiful part of California, and I will literally just stay in the house until I die. Like, not gonna get water, not gonna get food, I'm gonna just stay in my bed 'til I die."
- CWChris Williamson
With this person?
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yes. She didn't tell her family. This was like... And she was, uh, uh... She's just miserable, you know? She just wants it to be over. And so she didn't tell her family. She, like, left them a note or something. And so she goes to this little Airbnb in this random town, and- and it's Southern California, I forget where. And, you know, she- she arrives at the house. She doesn't explore the town or anything. You know, she's met up with her end of life care person, and they go in this house, and Ellie just cla- she can't even walk, you know? The- the end of care person's helping her walk. She gets in bed, and she's like, "Okay, I'm gonna- I'm gonna die now." Um, for three days, she laid in that bed, and she didn't die. And she felt horrible, and she felt like things were getting worse, but she's- she's not dying. And she decided, "You know what? I'm just gonna go take a quick walk, and then come back and die." Like, it's pretty- pretty bizarre, you know? It's a...
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) A usual Tuesday.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
(laughs) Yeah, exactly. And so she asks her end of life care person to come with her on a walk, 'cause she actually had not even seen the town she was in, you know? She basically just went into her bed. And so they- they leave this house, it's a beautiful sunny day, and, you know, she's holding onto her end of care- end of life care person, and he's- he's this really big guy, you...And they're walking down the sidewalk, and on their side is this beautiful field of flowers and, you know, there's a little, uh, wood rail post fence between them and the field, and it's like just beautiful and sunny. And, and for a second, you know, Ellie is ... She stops and just stares out at this field, and she's taken with just how beautiful it is. Now, this did not inspire her to, to want to live, 'cause she, she still wants it to end, but she's, you know, she's struck by this moment. You know, for, for the first time in a while, "I'm seeing something truly beautiful," and that's all. It's like, wonderful. But as she's staring at this field, she begins to hear a buzzing sound. And she looks above her and she sees there's a bee over her head. Which is not cause for concern. There are bees everywhere. You know, so be it. But this bee was not a normal bee. This bee was an African killer bee, so it's like a huge hornet. And when she dawn- when it dawned on her that this is like, "I should probably get away from this thing," it came down and began stinging her. And she's, like, practically immobile, and at the same time, she's like screaming. Her end of life care person just turns and starts running, like left her on the side of the road. She can't even walk. And this was not just one bee. There was a whole horde of African killer bees that were just over this field. And I guess they signaled to come over, and a whole swarm came over to Ellie, and they stung her over, and hundreds of times. She can't go anywhere. So basically, when they stopped stinging, mostly her face, for about five, 10 minutes, they flew off and she's just laying on the ground. And she's alive, but i- in excruciating pain. And by this point, her end of life care person, who has completely abandoned her, now he comes back and he scoops her up. And, and as, as he's running with her, sh- all she thinks to say is, "Don't take me to the hospital." 'Cause at this point, she's like, "This will kill me," you know? "The bee stings will kill me." And so, he runs her all the way back to the house and, and says, "Fine, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna bring you to the hospital, even though you've been horribly stung, and I'm at least partially to blame." Uh, and so Ellie climbs back in bed, and now she's thinking, "I'm gonna die." N- now it's either, it's, it's whatever's going on with me or the bee stings. But three more days go by, and she doesn't die. And in fact, she actually begins to feel better. For the first time in like 15 years, Ellie Lobo can sit up on her own. Uh, well, not ... She could sit up 15 years earlier, but of, of late, she couldn't even sit up. Now she can sit up. And she can get on her feet. She can walk around on her own. She's like, "What's going on here?" Now, Ellie is an- she was an incredibly smart woman, very, you know, pragmatic, and she did not think, "Oh, I'm cured. Everything's great now." She's like, "There's, there's something going on. I wanna, I wanna research this," you know? "What happened?" Necessary context. So, here's a quick break to understand what happens next. So, right before Ellie got sick, so 15 years earlier when she began to feel this, this feeling she was getting, she had gone out for a hike, and, you know, near her house, and she'd come back and she had noticed she had this little mark on the inside of her thigh. She figured it was a bug bite. Didn't think much of it. But, you know, she knew she got bit by something, but hadn't really registered if it had anything to do with her illness. But, it turned out she got bit by a tick. And a tick, le- uh, a deer tick that had Lyme disease. And when they bite you, they leave a very distinctive mark on your, on wherever they bit you. It looks like a bullseye. And it stood out to her at the time that she had this kind of bullseye-looking mark on her leg, but she just didn't put it together. It would turn out she had Lyme disease. That was the thing that was affecting her for those 15 years. And Lyme disease, if you catch it early and you treat it early, it's ver- it's totally curable. If you wait and you, you let it develop, it's very ... It is not something that can necessarily be cured. And in rare cases, it can absolutely be fatal. And she's 15 years in. She's, she's deeply immersed in Lyme disease. And so she actually came to know that around the time she got to the house in California. She was aware that she had Lyme disease, right? So I'm filling in some gaps here for you. So, she knows she has Lyme disease. She knows there's nothing she can do about it. She's now been stung by a bunch of bees and she's feeling pretty good. She hops online and she does some research about bee stings, and she discovered an obscure study done in the 1990s in Australia about the effects of the toxin in African killer bees and other types of bees, and its effects on Lyme disease patients. And they made, they, they guessed, they made this hypothesis that a certain amount of bee stings from African killer bees, in theory, could cure Lyme disease, but it was an unethical study and they couldn't do it, 'cause it would involve swarming killer bees on a critically ill Lyme disease patient. But Ellie Lobo unintentionally conducted the experiment on herself, and it completely cured her Lyme disease. A 100% healthy now. She tours the world, like, talking about the, the positive effects of getting stung by bees.
- CWChris Williamson
Dude.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Crazy, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Wow. That's insane.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
I mean, first off, whoever that end of life care person ... Come on. (laughs)
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
(laughs) He didn't
- CWChris Williamson
What an awful-
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Too committed to it. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Here's an interesting question. Was it ethical or unethical to leave her? Given that, by leaving her, she ended up being ... Her life was saved.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah. I mean, if she had been pulled away f- after one sting-
- CWChris Williamson
She'd be dead.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
... it would not have worked.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
So I'm sure she's like, "Man, thanks." (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Well, yeah, it's a mixed bag. Probably not gonna invite them to come save someone-
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... from a burning building, but-
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That is crazy. So-
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
And so when, when you watch the, the video of that, there ... I have this pause where I know I'm about to say the big, "She was cured completely," and it was like the audience was so stoked. It was like the coolest moment of the show. And it was captured on film, so it was very cool.
- CWChris Williamson
In other news, this episode is brought to you by LMNT. You'll have heard me talking about LMNT an awful lot over the last few months, and that's because I start my day every single morning with it. You might not be tired, you might not need more caffeine, you might just be dehydrated. And LMNT contains a science-backed electrolyte ratio of sodium, potassium, and magnesium, that helps to curb cravings, regulate your appetite, and improve your brain function. Stop having caffeine first thing in the morning. Your adenosine system that caffeine acts on isn't even active for the first 90 minutes of the day, but your adrenal system is, and salt acts on your adrenal system. Best of all, it tastes phenomenal. It's a beautiful, sweet, salty drink, and the orange version is my favorite. Also, there is a no BS, no questions asked refund policy, so you can buy it 100% risk-free. And if you do not like it for any reason, they will give you your money back, and you don't even need to return the box. That's how confident they are that you'll love it. You can get a free sample pack of all eight flavors with your first box by going to the link in the show notes below, or heading to drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom.... that's DrinkLMNT.com/modernwisdom.
- 49:45 – 58:46
Where MrBallen Finds His Stories
- CWChris Williamson
Where are you finding most of your story... Presumably everywhere.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, but, um, what are the places that you're going to... Especially given that, you know, these stories are accessible to everybody.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
How are you finding stories that other people aren't?
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Well, actually, that's, that's an interesting question because we, we cover a lot of stories that other people do. Um, and it's just the way we frame them out-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
... that separates us. And, and you'll notice, or it... I notice 'cause I read the comments. Many times when we cover a story that's, let's say, a well-trodden story that lots of people have covered, we'll see comments that are like, "Oh, dude, I didn't even know it was that story until the end."
- CWChris Williamson
Yes. "I've heard this before-"
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"... but it's so different."
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
And so, I think that we... And honestly, a, a big part of that is because... I'll, and I'll, I'll answer your question in a second, but a big part of it is when you look at true crime, even though that's not the only thing we talk about, but let's just use true crime as an example. Many, many, many times if you're, if you're consuming any content on a true crime, you know, medium, uh, YouTube channel, TV show, whatever, the, the emphasis is on the killer or the, or, or the, the perpetrator, and it's also on the gore and the kind of shock value of the story. This is a broad-sweeping generalization, but it is... It's like th- It's the lazy way, in my opinion, of doing content around kind of these tragic events.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
It's just focus on-
- CWChris Williamson
How much pain she was in.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Her face was disfigured. These African killer bees are unbelievably... Blah, blah, blah, blah.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
The way we do it is, we don't even need to highlight just how bad it is to be killed by somebody, that's pretty bad. Instead, we will highlight how relatable the victim was. But not in a way that feels contrived, in a way that we've mapped out ways to talk about this person that feel real, they feel authentic, this feels like a three-dimensional person.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
So that when the terrible thing happens to that person, the audience is, like, connected to that person. It hurts when that happens to them. That's a more profound feeling than me telling you about the pool of blood in the hall. You're like... Okay, that's not enough. That's not enough to elicit some sort of emotional reaction. All it is, at best, is gruesome, you know, and that, that doesn't do much. If you want your audience to genuinely connect with a story, you need to make your characters three-dimensional. And in true crime, usually the three-dimensional characters are the killers. We make the three-dimensional characters the non-killers.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
The victims, and this, and that kind of supporting cast. And you don't really notice it as the audience, because it's, it's just a normal story that results in tragedy, versus, "This is a dark story. Here's the blood and gore, the-"
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
And so, um, so I would say that we do do stories that are very well-trodden, but we just kind of change the angle of how we tell them. And then, I mean, in the early days, it was just me and Google (laughs) , you know, looking for stories. Uh, and I would say that th- the difficult part of, of doing this is you need permission to tell a lot of people's stories, unless it's public source information.
- CWChris Williamson
What does that mean?
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
If I'm gonna tell your personal experience of th- that time you went camping and somebody attacked you, and, you know, let's say you wrote a book about it, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
And I wanna tell your story. If I tell your story and don't attribute it to you, like, that's your story, and I could absolutely have a copyright claim against me.
- 58:46 – 1:08:32
Who Was MrBallen Before the SEALs
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
- CWChris Williamson
So, from the outside, now you look like a peaceful, well put together, disciplined family guy, storyteller, all the rest of it. Who were you before you joined the SEALs?
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah. Uh, (sighs) I was like a troublemaker. I was a lot of the things that I, I am... I, I am the opposite of what I am now, uh, when, when I was younger. I, I... So I grew up in a town called Quincy, Massachusetts. It's just south of Boston, maybe 10 minutes south, and it's this, you know, blue collar, fiercely, um, very, very Irish Catholic, uh, you know, a lot of, a lot of the, the fathers, you know, that I was around were, you know, steel workers, and, you know, the Pipefitters' Union and the Elevator Union, like, kind of like tough guys, you know. And there was this culture in, in Quincy, which still exists today, of young men feeling... Uh, there's this... Well, street fighting. I'll just make it really simple. Street fighting was a really big thing in Quincy, where the way you kind of become a man, at least in the circle of people that I was around, was you, you bleed. You-
- CWChris Williamson
Rite of passage.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah, exactly. And it became... It was so pervasive in, in, in my childhood that it, it felt normal, that all the time, every weekend, there was... A- and knowing this is not to serious injury. This is like, you know, some bare knuckle boxing that ends and they shake hands a lot of time. But that was what I grew up around, and I, I was around people getting in fights all the time, and, and I, I definitely identified as, you know, a tough guy, even though kind of ironically, I, I, I was not. I was... My friends were very tough, they were like the real tough guys, and I was the guy that was around those guys. Um, but, uh, that combined with the fact that I kind... I, I looked at my, my father, my sister, my, my... I looked at my family, and they're all these really accomplished academics, if you will.
- CWChris Williamson
It's like a number of Pulitzer Prizes, I think, amongst, amongst your family.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
(laughs) They're just, they're just like so accomplished academically, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
And that was definitely the thing that was not pushed on us at all, but that was what success was. You know, that... Getting a good job, you know, having a... Going to a good school, all that, that's, that's, that's success. And I kind of didn't like that. Uh, I, I've always had, uh... This is another irony of my story, I've always had a big issue with authority, which is why I joined the military.
- CWChris Williamson
Ugh.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Uh, but I had a big issue with authority, and, and the way I kind of rebelled against my family was by being a bad student, which is a, a poor way to rebel, 'cause you're just kind of shooting yourself in the leg. So I was a bad student kind of on purpose, and I was getting in lots of fights and stuff and just being kind of a, a jerk, like, you know, (laughs) just underage drinking and being a, a ruffian out on the road. Um, and so, you know, I, I was just kind of a, a troublemaker, you know? It wasn't until I, I, I got into college, I went to the University of Massachusetts out in, uh, Western Mass at Amherst, and I only got in 'cause my mom, who's this amazing writer, uh, wrote my college essay. And, and my, my grades were so abysmal at, at my high school that UMass contacted me after I submitted my application, my, my mom's application, to be like, "You're not somebody we would normally accept on your grades. They're, they're legitimate." And I'm in Massachusetts, I'm an in-stu- I'm an in-state student, I should be allowed into this school, but they're like, "It's so low, we, we can't let you in. But your essay-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
... was so good."Welcome to the school.
- CWChris Williamson
Well done, Mum.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
(laughs) And so my ... Yeah. Uh, and so I, I got, I, I effectively flunked out and got in lots of trouble in one semester. Didn't go to class, you know, I... And so after a semester, I'm, I'm back home, uh, after totally failing college, and I'm in my mom's basement. My parents are separated, so my mom's living there. It's just me. I'm in the basement. I'm 19 years old. And, you know, it's funny, now I look back and I was like, "God, I was such an idiot." Like, you, of course you're in your mom's basement, like, with no direction. But when I got home, I actually was really resentful of my parents because they made me come home. I could have stayed for another semester at UMass. I didn't technically fail out. I could have one more semester in there, you know? But it's just immaturity. I was like this idiot who had just kept getting in trouble all through high school. I had this great opportunity to go to college 'cause my mom did my essay, and I blow it out the water, and here I am back home. And again, my first reaction was, "How dare my parents, you know, not allow me to stay."
- CWChris Williamson
The lack of accountability.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Oh my God, I was just insufferable. I was an insufferable kid. Um, but ...
- CWChris Williamson
Where did that entitlement come from?
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
I, I don't even know. Uh, I mean, I ... You could make the case that, you know, my parents got split up when I was 13. You know, I'm sure that had an effect on me. But I'd already set in motion, when I was like 12, going out in the streets and getting in fights. So, it, it, it isn't like I was a great kid and then that happened and I changed. I, I've always been, like, highly impulsive, um, kind of obsessed with the thing I'm doing if- even if it's a bad... If, like, when I start to like something, whether it's good or bad for me, I, I can only do that thing. If I like a song, I'm gonna listen to that song 56 million times in a row until I (censored) hate the song.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Like, that's the person I am, and so I just got on these tracks of just, like, chasing dopamine but in the, in the, in the wrong places. But when I was in my mom's basement, you know, pissed at my parents, it like suddenly clicked that I was the asshole. I'm the guy that's really screwed up all the stuff that's effectively been handed to me. I mean, going to college, that was handed to me. I'm not even paying for it. My parents are, and they had to scrape the money together for that. And it, like, just really suddenly hit me that I was really screwing up my life, and I just decided, "You know what? I am going to go to college and I'm gonna pay for it. I'm gonna get a job. I'm, I'm gonna be an adult." You know? If nothing else, to just stop being such an embarrassment for my, my parents, who are trying to explain why their son is living at home again. And so I got a job at the local YMCA, that I used to ride my ten-speed Huffy to at 4:00 in the morning to scan people's badges in, and then I would take the, the Red Line, the subway into Boston. And I went to UMass Boston, so a satellite campus where you can basically get in for free (laughs) to go to that campus. And I would go to classes all day and then I would come home and I'd, you know, I'd work out and stuff and go to bed, and it was just a very stoic life-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
... of just work and school. But it was unbelievably rewarding, and it, and it really opened my eyes to what it felt like to be an adult. You know, "I'm gonna do these things," and then actually doing the things you say, that was new to me. I was used to just, like, doing whatever the F I wanted and being an idiot, and now I'm being an adult. And I just became kind of addicted to being, I don't know, uh, competent as a human.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
And, uh, so I did three semesters at that school, just the whole time I'm just minding my Ps and Qs, doing my, my job, scanning badges in, getting good grades again. But I needed, like, a new goal, 'cause it was just, at the time, you know, just get your life together. Go to school, have a job, whatever. But I needed something bigger, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
The bar was set quite low.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
Yeah. It's like, yeah, exactly. And because I'm now seeing how good it feels to be disciplined and be an adult, I just wanted to have something else beyond schoolwork. And I began thinking about what's life on, on the end of college gonna look like? And I had, I had told my family I was thinking about law school, and really that was only because I, I, I had, I took a liking to philosophy and to English, just in my classes, and those oftentimes are majors that those pursuing law school will, will major in. Because philosophy teaches you how to think and English teaches you how to write, two things that are really important to being a lawyer. And so I figured, if I liked those things, I'd be a great lawyer. But I didn't wanna be a lawyer (laughs) it just was this thing that I told my parents I wanted to do. Um, but I had always had this desire to be in the military, to some degree, mostly because I was, you know ... I graduated high school in 2006, and a lot of my classmates, you know, at 18 years old enlisted in the Marine Corps and went to Iraq and Afghanistan. And so, my personal closest friends are all serving and I had a desire to. And I brought that up to my mom halfway through college, and she was like, "Oh, you should talk to, to Dave and Pete," uh, who are, you know, family friends. Uh, actually, so my mom's best friend, it's her two brothers. And so I knew her best friend, Susan, and she's like an aunt to me, and I knew who her brothers were but I didn't know anything about 'em. I just knew they existed. Well, it turns out they were Navy SEALs who were retiring out of the, the SEAL teams, and that, those were the only military people my mom knew. And she was like, "If you're thinking about the military, talk to them." And when I did, it was like, "Oh my God." Like, the Navy SEALs are the coolest people in the world, you know? And, and the thing that stuck, that stuck with me when I met with them is, uh, they were like, "It's a meritocracy." You know? Going to, to be, to be a Navy SEAL, it's just whoever can stick around till the end. And if you can do that, you completely reinvent yourself. You know, whoever you were before you were a SEAL is replaced-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- MAMrBallen (John Allen)
... with, you know, John Allen the Navy SEAL, not John Allen-
- CWChris Williamson
It's like ...
Episode duration: 3:27:03
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