Topics People Are Too Afraid To Talk About - Douglas Murray | Modern Wisdom Podcast 219

Douglas Murray 0:00 Somebody did a video the other day from Portland, Oregon of one of these parks where they've really done their best, you know, the protestors. And it's just, it really does look like the apocalyptic wasteland they deserve. Just covered in p- and just people just lying zonked out on whatever illegal or legal drugs they've been able to get, and everyone just looks like they've p- themselves.

Chris Williamson 0:20 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 0:20 And they've taken... All the statues are down, of course. The whole place is covered in plinths, beautiful plinths everywhere.

Chris Williamson 0:26 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 0:26 Uh, no, but they're... And all the plinths are covered in BLM graffiti and "Fuck the state" and "Police" and this. And that's what these people inherit, and they deserve to inherit it. A, a urine-stenched, graffitied wasteland in which just zombies lie around until they die.

Chris Williamson 0:44 (wind blowing) I'm joined by Douglas Murray. Douglas, welcome to the show.

Douglas Murray 0:49 Great to be with you again. It's been-

Chris Williamson 0:51 Great.

Douglas Murray 0:51 ... uh, what? Two y- a year probably. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 0:54 One year.

Douglas Murray 0:54 One year.

Chris Williamson 0:54 One year since we spoke, and it feels like-

Douglas Murray 0:56 And you've done your ceiling.

Chris Williamson 0:57 I've done my ceiling. So all of-

Douglas Murray 0:59 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 0:59 ... the people on the internet that were complaining and saying, "What is that mold on the ceiling?" It wasn't. It was candle soot. I went through a period where I loved Yankee Candles for a while, but we're out the other side. Uh, but yeah, it was only a year ago, which feels like 75 years ago.

Douglas Murray 1:13 Doesn't it just? Doesn't it just? Uh, we're both looking okay despite that, I'd like to think. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:20 I hope so. I mean, I've lost an Achilles, but, um, that's, that's really the only thing that's gone wrong. So th- at the end of 2019 when The Madness of Crowds came out, I asked you what chapters you could have added which you omitted.

Douglas Murray 1:32 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:32 And you said mental health and green. What's your answer in 2020?

Douglas Murray 1:38 I think I'd, I'd s- stay with that. Um, green in particular has been really doing well in the lunatic Olympics.

Chris Williamson 1:48 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 1:48 Um, (laughs) they, they, they've, they've got a whole new wardrobe of lunacy. Uh, (laughs) they've got new makeup that shows they're mad. They actually dress to say, "I'm mad." Um, so I, I do feel still a bit annoyed that I never did the green chapter. But as I say, there's, there's an awful lot of material in those guys and girls. Um, uh, I would observe simply though that since we last spoke, everything I write about in The Madness of Crowds, everything I do put in on gay, on women, on race, and on trans has just... (smacks lips) Which, you know, I could see coming. It was why I was trying to warn people about it. And, uh, but goodness, particularly in the last few months, so much more than I ever feared could happen this fast.

Chris Williamson 2:46 Do you feel vindicated that you got it right or sad that it occurred as you prophesized?

Douglas Murray 2:50 Do you know, I don't like vindication all that much.

Chris Williamson 2:52 (laughs) Oh yeah. Yeah, it's good.

Douglas Murray 2:53 I mean, th-

Chris Williamson 2:53 You should try it sometime.

Douglas Murray 2:55 Yeah, I mean, it, it's always nice when people point it out, but, uh, it actually doesn't feel that great then because if you say, "Look, here's this terrible thing that's coming towards you," uh, and then it happens anyway, you know, you feel like maybe you didn't warn well enough or you didn't warn w- you know, clearly enough or something like that. But I might be overdoing what you can achieve in, in, in warning. But, you know, I, I, I do feel that those of us, and there are a number of us who said, "Look, dig down into these identity traits things and you won't heal society. You'll, you'll make it more discombobulated and eventually you'll make it more divided. And you're not gonna solve it. You're gonna make it worse." You know, a number of us said that, but, you know, too many people thought, "No, we love the sound of the apocalypse you're talking about."

Chris Williamson 3:48 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 3:48 "Let's get there faster. Let's take the fast route."

Chris Williamson 3:51 (laughs) Yeah, you're right. They got first class. They went VIP upgrade.

Douglas Murray 3:54 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 3:55 They got the trolley, the trolley service as well.

Douglas Murray 3:57 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 3:57 Um, what have we learned from JK Rowling

Chris Williamson 4:00 this year?

Douglas Murray 4:02 Oh, wow. Well, um, who ever thought that the creator of Harry Potter would become Goebbels?

Chris Williamson 4:10 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 4:10 Uh, I mean, the most unforgivable, canceled person. It's extraordinary. I never thought that the Harry Potter or... I mean, I never thought that the people who were great fans of JK Rowling would, would turn on her this much. The only thing I, I've ever seen that really, that I can think of that it reminds me of was I once saw some footage from Trafalgar Square of some young girls who had stayed out all night waiting for Leonardo DiCaprio to come for the premier of a movie, and it was raining and he didn't stay very long to greet them because it was raining. And I remember this footage of them saying, "I hate him!" And they'd turned from so devoted, so devoted-

Chris Williamson 5:00 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 5:00 ... they had camped out and arranged their lives around the possibility of a glimpse, and got to, "I hate him. He's the nastiest man in the world," in no time.

Chris Williamson 5:11 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 5:11 And that seems to be what's happening with JK Rowling. Um, now, of course, not with all her fans. I don't wanna, I don't wanna overemphasize it, but you know, there is a portion of people who believe that the Harry Potter woman who they relied on all the time when they were growing up and who gave them all this, you know, great time, uh, has become a Nazi when they weren't looking. And I, I don't... I should stress, I don't think she has. Uh, but there's a lot to learn, firstly in the dementing tones of the time. Second, in the way in which public figures can just be made, versions of them that have no resemblance to what they are become, you know, uh, they're played out there in the public sphere. And then you get the very interesting other lessons. I, I don't like this term cancel culture. I think it's sort of, uh, it's already stale and it's not quite accurate because, you know, JK Rowling hasn't been canceled.... like that. You know, there's a bunch of very insane people who think that the Ickabog is too difficult for them to cope with in this life. And by the way, I mean, uh, because th- that, that was the attempt, the wa- the attempted walkout at, uh, at her publishers, Hachette, was, was not, uh, because they didn't... The, the, the, the I think 150 or so people, mainly young, at Hachette who said they couldn't work, uh, o- on the latest JK Rowling book and w- didn't want to be in the same places, they weren't publishing JK Rowling's Big Book of Trans.

Chris Williamson 6:47 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 6:47 It wasn't Chicks With Dicks by JK Rowling.

Chris Williamson 6:52 (laughs) Dumbledore and Harry have an X-rated adventure, it wasn't that?

Douglas Murray 6:55 No, it wasn't that. It was a new children's book to be called the Ickabog. And if you are an adult in the world and you can't be in the proximity of a children's book called the Ickabog, it's possible this world isn't gonna be able to be arranged around you anymore. You know, it's, it's... That's, that's, that's a bad place to be. And so JK Rowling's story has lots of things to tell us, but one of them is what can be done by one person, just one person? Second thing is we are learning lessons about who can be canceled and who cannot. And the fact that clearly it matters that she makes money and that she has money. Now, that's not all a good f- sign because it means that those of us who aren't multi-zillionaires are still vulnerable. And I wouldn't like to be in a position where only the very rich can survive attempted cancellation. Um, but it shows that one person with a voice and with some guts, she certainly has that, can say, "Look, I'm not persecuting anyone. I'm just telling you I'm not going along with the following crazy thing you made up yesterday." And I admire her for doing that. You know, she had no... She didn't have to get into any of this. She could quite easily have, you know, continued buying, you know, Ha- Harry Potter castle-sized houses and living very happily. You know, most people, most people would be very happy to have a quiet life and, um, and enjoy their, their, their, their, (laughs) their loot. Uh, uh, but she, uh, she, she's done this. And, and I have all, all respect for her for doing so.

Chris Williamson 8:37 It's the sort of thing her legacy, in whatever form that will be, I'm sure that she is going to be remembered, you know, Harry Potter is one of the most popular children's series ever.

Douglas Murray 8:47 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 8:48 And, and, and really sort of was a pivot as well with regards to, um, children's literature, I think, that was adult-friendly as well. You know, like you had kids... They even did special adult, um, cover versions-

Douglas Murray 8:59 Yes. I know there was a kind of-

Chris Williamson 9:00 ... so that adults were less, less embarrassed reading to kids.

Douglas Murray 9:02 Yeah. I thought very poorly of the adult. I read the children's editions.

Chris Williamson 9:05 Damn right.

Douglas Murray 9:05 I thought very poorly of the adults who, who thought they were fooling everyone by reading them.

Chris Williamson 9:10 (laughs) It's still Harry Potter, mate. Yeah. Um, but yeah, and you're right, she could have just quietly allowed that legacy to roll forward without doing anything to potentially upset the balance, but she decided not to.

Douglas Murray 9:21 Yeah. Yeah. And I, I, I just think that we need to reflect more on when things go well. You know, you hear an awful lot about, you know, when things are going badly. This has gone very well. You know, um, there was a fear around the time of the JK Rowling thing that maybe even making money for a company didn't protect you. You know, there... Look at Netflix. Netflix has been willing to, to take financial hits in order to do worse programs so long as they're in the right political realm. Um, eh, e- I worried in the publishing industry that that would be the case with JK Rowling, but, but, but fortunately not. Um, eh, fortunately it's still, you know, success still speaks. And I'm, I'm delighted by the people, by the way, I don't want to be snotty about this, but some of the people who resigned... There were some people who resigned from her literary agency because her, the literary agent was now representing an anti-trans person. And I just... It was one of the funniest reads of the year, reading the authors who'd resigned from JK Rowling's literary agency. I, I can tell you her literary agent isn't any poorer.

Chris Williamson 10:31 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 10:32 I'll just, I'll put it at his most diplomatic...

Chris Williamson 10:34 The literary agents praying to their gods, thanking them that they've finally rid themselves of some non-selling authors.

Douglas Murray 10:40 Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. So, um, so no, but it's been a, but it's been a very, it's been a very good thing because I think we might have spoken about this when we last spoke, but, you know, I, I've always said that, uh, cowardice is catching. And when a society sort of, you know, encourages people to be sort of cowardly and meek and shut up and all that sort of thing, and if the public figures all do that, then other people do it. But the reverse is also true. And if, you know, mainstream and totally responsible and respected figures like JK Rowling, uh, do, do this and fantastic. More, more, more men and women will say what they think and they won't go along with stuff just because they're told they have to, particularly when it's mad stuff that was just made up yesterday.

Chris Williamson 11:21 So you've said cancel culture is a term that you're not super happy with. What is the cancellation sphere that's, that's out there in the world at the moment?

Douglas Murray 11:33 Well, the, the clear one that does exist is the attempt to find people whose employment is vulnerable to mob stampeding. So, you know, somebody says something on Twitter, for instance, uh, in support of, uh, somebody that Twitter doesn't like, and they, Twitter then finds where they work and, uh, you know, lobbies their boss until they're sacked, sort of thing. That, that's, that's, that's the aim. And there's lots of sort of versions of that. Um, lobby a company, uh, pretend that, you know, the company is going to lose masses of money because it just destroyed its market, you know, uh, capability because everyone's unhappy with it. Uh, um, that stuff does go on.... um-

Chris Williamson 12:19 But you're not happy with that being called cancel culture.

Douglas Murray 12:22 Well, no, no, no. Uh, uh, it's not that. I, what I'm, what I'm worried about is that we get stuck on it, um, because I believe it's much more important to focus on what is winning and what winning looks like. And, you know, there is a certain, you notice this in American journalism a bit more than you do here, there is a bit of, "Oh, I was so nearly canceled. Oh, I was canceled." There's a sort of certain, uh, you know, you al- you always have it in writing, 'cause writers are a very self-obsessed bunch and, and tend to think of themselves as being brave. I mean, you know, Mark Steiner made a famous quip years ago, you know, like, uh, "Writers are forever giving each other awards for bravery." And you know, you don't-

Chris Williamson 13:05 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 13:05 All of the professions where they're, you know, like, you've got to run into burning buildings and save people, and it's like they don't spend all their time talking about bravery awards, you know? But, but writers are very big on bravery, and writers like, quite a lot of writers like the idea that they're sort of, ooh, you know, edgy and, and, and all that sort of thing, and so, so the idea of being canceled is a little bit, you know, for them. I don't really care about that stuff. I, I care about people saying what they think, and I'm really, I really think that people should not pay so much attention to a re- a very, very rarefied and demented minority of people, and I don't think we should give these people the right to dictate the cultural weather in any way. In any way. Uh, why should a small, demented group of people who believe that the big bearded man with a penis is a woman if he says he is, that they should dictate the cultural weather across the country and make major authors have to fear for their careers and make all politicians become gibbering wrecks when the subject comes up? Why should that be the case? Why can't we just have discussions out in a reasonable fashion and, you know, advance your case to the best of your capability? But you don't do that. I think we've given in issue after issue very deranged minorities, minorities of minorities, the right to basically dictate the weather. And, and we don't need to, because on any estimation, on any estimation, you know, most of those people are not doing that well. You know, the authors who were the anti-Rowling people are not doing as well as her, so why not, you know, why not say actually the person... The point is, about this is, is to say the person in your life you should want to be is JK Rowling, not just 'cause you should want to be rich, but because you should want to be in a position in your life where you can tell the truth. That should be the position you aim for. And I'm worried that all of this sort of actually encourages people to say, "The position I would like to sort of hold in my life will be the one where nobody notices me and nobody comes for me and I sort of get away with it and then die."

Chris Williamson 15:12 How vanilla can I spend the remainder of my life?

Douglas Murray 15:15 Right.

Chris Williamson 15:15 I'd like to be som- somewhere in between the color eggplant and beige.

Douglas Murray 15:19 Absolutely. On the, on the great color chart of humanity-

Chris Williamson 15:23 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 15:23 ... human experience. And, and that's, but that's what, that's what, that's what they're doing, and I, I just, I think we should encourage people not, not to play that game. Not, not-

Chris Williamson 15:32 It's hard though, right? You've, you've hit on something there that people like yourself or Sam Harris or JK Rowling, by virtue of, uh, success or financial backing or a, a level of independence with regards to your platform or whatever it might be-

Douglas Murray 15:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:46 ... have taken great, gone to great lengths, uh, to make yourself uncancelable.

Douglas Murray 15:51 Mm.

Chris Williamson 15:52 But not everyone has that luxury.

Douglas Murray 15:54 Sure. No, no, I don't, I don't underestimate it at all. Um, just my experience in life is that I've always said what I think, and, uh, it's worked well.

Chris Williamson 16:03 It's not a new... That's, that's the thing, I said before-

Douglas Murray 16:05 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:05 ... our first podcast, like, how do we get through all of these topics without stepping on a landmine? And you increasingly just sort of do a, a ballerina dance through this landmine-

Douglas Murray 16:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:16 ... back and forth every single day.

Douglas Murray 16:17 I, I like to think it's slightly more butch than that, but, but I agree. It's something like, it's somewhere in that-

Chris Williamson 16:21 Yes. Yeah, yeah, okay.

Douglas Murray 16:22 ... Nureyev, Nureyev-like leaps around, but-

Chris Williamson 16:24 Yeah. Cool.

Douglas Murray 16:25 ... that, that's what you're, that, that was the, the image-

Chris Williamson 16:26 Sorry.

Douglas Murray 16:26 ... that was in your mind.

Chris Williamson 16:27 Correct. You are-

Douglas Murray 16:28 No, but, um (laughs) -

Chris Williamson 16:32 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 16:32 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 16:32 I've got this image of you in a pink tutu that's just dancing through a minefield, but that's-

Douglas Murray 16:37 I, I'm just-

Chris Williamson 16:37 We're, we're too cliched here now, right?

Douglas Murray 16:38 I'm just thrilled at the image in your mind.

Chris Williamson 16:40 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 16:41 Um, the... (laughs) But, but no, I mean, I, uh, yeah, I, that's my experience. Um, it is not to say that it's completely easy. I mean, you know, you, you have to do your work and you have to work hard and you have to, you know, weigh your words when you speak them as when you write them, but you, you know, any normal person would anyway. And, um, but yeah, I, I, I, I just, I think we've got to change the, um... You know, there's this thing that's gone on in our era in general, I think this came up last time, that, that we've moved from the heroic mood in society to the victim mood. You know, we've moved in general from the who is the person who's been most heroic in their lives to the sort of celebration of whoever's con- uh, say they've been the most victimized, and this is all a little bit of that. It's a little offshoot of it, and I'm not really that interested in victimhood, not because I'm, um, hard-hearted or anything like that, it's just that my observation of life is that we can all of us whinge endlessly if we want to about our lot, because human experience is m- extraordinary in lots of ways and will always include an awful lot of mundanity and pain and grief and much, much more. So, we could all do it, um, I'm just not sure that our society should encourage it as much as it does.

Chris Williamson 18:10 I think you're right. There's a, an interesting translation, uh, change that I came across recently. Um, the Buddha said, uh, "Life is suffering," but the word of suffering is Dukkha...... D-U-K-A, and as with all ancient translations, it's a nearest closest term-

Douglas Murray 18:25 Right.

Chris Williamson 18:25 ... that they try to find, right? And suffering was one of the translations, but there's some scholars that contest that it's not suffering, it's unsatisfactoriness. Life is-

Douglas Murray 18:35 Right.

Chris Williamson 18:35 ... unsatisfactoriness. And if you spend-

Douglas Murray 18:37 Sure.

Chris Williamson 18:37 ... a bit of time in evolutionary psychology, you realize that that unsatisfactoriness is fitness enhancing. If you were-

Douglas Murray 18:43 Yes, absolutely.

Chris Williamson 18:44 ... fully, fully actualized-

Douglas Murray 18:45 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 18:45 ... upon killing your first bison, you'd never kill another bison.

Douglas Murray 18:48 Absolutely.

Chris Williamson 18:48 Upon having sex the first time, you'd never have sex again.

Douglas Murray 18:51 Exactly. Uh, I do know people like that.

Chris Williamson 18:55 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 18:55 But the (laughs)

Chris Williamson 18:57 (laughs) Come on.

Douglas Murray 18:59 No. Uh, no, you're right. Look, the unsatisfactoriness is of course, uh, uh, wanting to do better, wanting to do more. Um, a lot of people find this, uh, with the accretion of wealth, uh, they never get enough of it. Um, it's n- not the best way to do it, uh, but it, it, it's one thing. Yes, un- un- unsatisfiedness is, is, isn't an entirely bad thing. Um, it's an enormous drive for a lot of people. Um, it's, it's obviously one of the things behind ambition. And, and yes, I, I, I think there's a, there's, there's an awful lot of things going on in our age, but w- w- we, we should try to identify the things that we are erroneously holding up as good.

Chris Williamson 19:43 Agree.

Douglas Murray 19:43 And I do thi- I do think that holding up victimhood as, as not just good, but meaning that you especially deserve a platform or a microphone has turned out to be a, an unhelpful way to start a new generation off in this world.

Chris Williamson 20:00 It's a Jordan Petersonism, right, where he talks about the fact that, uh, a rabbit isn't inherently good because it's unable to commit evil.

Douglas Murray 20:08 Right.

Chris Williamson 20:08 It's the, um, enacting your shadow fully, fully internalizing your shadow from the Jungian perspective. Um, and the same with that, like, you, you're very correct. There is no bravery in avoiding courageous challenges.

Douglas Murray 20:22 Right.

Chris Williamson 20:23 Um-

Douglas Murray 20:23 And, and, and one of the things, uh, again, I mean, we touched on this when we last met, but one of the things I'm particularly worried about in this area is what's happening to men in all of this. Because men seem to me the primary people at the moment who have been persuaded to lessen their capabilities, lessen w- the things they could achieve, and sort of just find a way to get through this strange period that we're in. And, and it's, it's not healthy. It's not healthy for men. It's not healthy for women. Um, it, it, it makes very unhappy men and it makes very unhappy women because women don't want those men.

Chris Williamson 21:04 What are your thoughts on looting as a method of hastening change?

Douglas Murray 21:09 I'm mainly against it. Um-

Chris Williamson 21:12 Are you ever for it?

Douglas Murray 21:14 No. Not that I can think of. Uh, you're referring, I assume, among other things, to the book that's just been published in America, In Defense of Looting.

Chris Williamson 21:21 2016, that came out, you know.

Douglas Murray 21:23 Did it really? Gosh, that was a prophetic book.

Chris Williamson 21:25 Which is really, really interesting.

Douglas Murray 21:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:27 So I'll, I, the-

Douglas Murray 21:29 It's had its moment now, that book, hasn't it?

Chris Williamson 21:31 F- she is so much more insightful than you. Her ability to see what's going on in the future is that much greater than yours.

Douglas Murray 21:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:37 Um, so Vicky Osterweil, for anyone who doesn't know what it is, I've got a little, a little breakdown here, and then I'll, I'll get your opinions on it. Um, so NPR summarizes the book as an argument that, "Looting is a powerful tool to bring about real, lasting change in society." Osterweil's argument is simple, the so-called United States was founded in "cis-hetero patriarchal racial capitalist violence." That violence produced our current system, particularly its property relations, and looting is a remedy for that sickness. Looting rejects the legitimacy of ownership rights and property, the moral injunction to work for a living in the justice of law and order. Ownership of things, not just people, is innately structurally white supremacist. Looting is good, she says, because it exposes a deep truth about the great American confidence game, which is that without, "Without police and without state oppression, we can have things for free." She came to this conclusion-

Douglas Murray 22:31 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 22:31 ... six years ago in her book, which is written in love and solidarity with looters the world over.

Douglas Murray 22:39 Well, the, uh, obvious question is where does she live?

Chris Williamson 22:44 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 22:45 Only thing you need to know.

Chris Williamson 22:46 Do you know that at the front of the book, they have the classic, um, this is copyrighted by whatever publishing-

Douglas Murray 22:56 Yes, I know, I know because a colleague of mine at The Spectator wrote her publishers the other day saying, "We are publishing our own edition of this."

Chris Williamson 23:04 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 23:05 Uh, and-

Chris Williamson 23:05 Looting her book.

Douglas Murray 23:06 We're just looting her book. And, uh, the publishers didn't seem to be up for that. You'd be amazed to hear. But I mean, I just said, "Look, if you see it in a bookshop, take it. It's yours, all property's theft. Why not?" Turns out actually nobody wants to steal her book, certainly not if it's filled with stuff like you just read. Um, uh, uh, these people, I mean, they're so reprehensible on so many levels. I mean, first of all, by the way, um, how ignorant can somebody be? I mean, how ignorant do you have to be to make that claim about the foundation of American society? And I suspect like a number of authors of the American far left, she's never been anywhere else in the world in her life. I sus- strongly suspect that. Um, if, if she can send me photos of herself in Sub-Saharan Africa, North Africa, across a lot of the Middle East and the Far East and things, I, I could be persuaded. But I would suspect that she's been brought up in America, hasn't traveled very much further, and has simply been indoctrinated in this now completely boring and predictable way where all you need to do is throw out this same word salad about heteronormativity and, uh, and, and indigenous people and all this sort of thing. And before you know it, you've got a not very well selling book that you can't even get stolen.

Chris Williamson 24:19 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 24:19 But the, the (laughs) the, the, the-

Chris Williamson 24:23 That's like, uh, do you remember the Sargon of Akkad thing that you got really, really in trouble for?

Douglas Murray 24:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 24:27 ... where he said, "I wouldn't even rape you." That was his thing to the politician. I can't remember the lady's name. And that was what got him in trouble. This is a book so bad you wouldn't even steal it. Is that sort of-

Douglas Murray 24:36 It can't be stolen. It can't be stolen. I, I mean, if anyone can show me an example of it being stolen, but y- yeah. Um, it's, it's also, I mean, it's, it's, it's amazing we're in this era and that people are, are talking and thinking like this. I, I simply think it's, she is a product of, um, uh, capitalism at this particular stage where, um, she doesn't know very much. She hasn't been very far in the world. She's not been educated well. She's not seen anything of the world. She doesn't know anything about life. She doesn't know how life is normally run. And all of that is playing out on the streets of various American cities at the moment, primarily Portland, Oregon. Uh, but there are a lot of people in this strange position. I, I have a lot of friends in America who tell me that this is very common, this sort of thing, among their children and grandchildren. They say that they, they, they genuinely think, like this, uh, woman, that, uh, that their country is uniquely bad and these people just don't know anything. They just don't know anything. They don't know anything about history, they don't know anything about geography, they don't know anything about the world. And I'm, I, I'm very uninterested in the thoughts of these intensely parochial so-called internationalists, uh, because that's what they are. I mean, they just, they have never seen the consequences of their own thought. They, they... The idea that you take away the police and everything will be, was it free, I think she said? Yeah. Yeah. Well, y- you also will get a massive upsurge in rape, murder.

Chris Williamson 26:18 Disproportionately in minority communities as well.

Douglas Murray 26:21 Yeah. And, um, and then what are you gonna blame it on? Uh, maybe the period when we still had police and there's a linger o- there's a ling- lingering over-ness that makes people do that for a time. I mean, this is juvenile thinking. This is, it's not juvenile, this is wicked and juvenile thinking. Um, again, I don't think very many people believe it. And I think that this is, there is an argument, it's a bleak argument, that people like her simply have to see this tested close up at some point.

Chris Williamson 26:51 Did we not see this with Chaz Chop? Was that not-

Douglas Murray 26:54 Yes.

Chris Williamson 26:54 ... a perfect microcosm for this, that you could have-

Douglas Murray 26:57 Absolutely.

Chris Williamson 26:58 You can have idiocy masquerading as moral virtue-

Douglas Murray 27:02 Hmm. Uh, uh, uh, within a few- There are certain, there are certain very, very pert- There, there... Chaz, Chad was a, a very, uh, good example of it. There are lots of individuals who, who demonstrate it. Do you remember that big story, I think it was in the New York Times when it was still a newspaper, uh, which, uh, where there was a description of a couple, an American couple? Again, somewhere like Oregon or somewhere like...

Chris Williamson 27:29 The Guns.

Douglas Murray 27:29 No, that could be another couple. This couple didn't have guns as far as I know. In fact, they were very anti-gun. They were very pro-peace though. And they feared that the world, uh, was lacking in love and they just needed to give a bit more love to the world. Uh, you can see how this ends already, can't you? Uh, they decided to go on a cycling holiday and sort of spread, spread, well, something or other. And, uh, then they ended up just getting killed by a Jihadi cell in, like, Tajikistan.

Chris Williamson 27:57 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 27:58 And they did a blog of their stops in various places in the Far East and the Near East, this cycling... Or I think on a tandem even. And then they just, you know, one day they go, you know, it's all... And it's, all the stuff is like we just, you know, you think the world just needs more love and, and more tandem holidays and, and-

Chris Williamson 28:16 So they've got rose petals, they've got a basket of rose petals in front and they're-

Douglas Murray 28:19 Yeah, and, and, and this, this, uh, couple of guys, couple of Jihadis saw them one day and just, you know, on the fluke, so they couldn't believe their luck clearly, and just, just took them out. Uh, so human naivety is, uh, very familiar and one has to be careful not to laugh too much at the people who, who express it, but it's a very, it's a very common thing, uh, to be totally naive about the nature of the world. Ordinarily, you get over it when you're very young. Unfortunately, in America in particular, we have, uh, a generation of juveniles who are growing up and still juvenile, and who actually believe these things, who, who actually believe that, you know, life is really quite straightforward. You know, if you just don't have the police and you sort of defund the police and you don't have, don't have the patriarchal, cis, heteronormative state, then, then what? I mean, by the way, did you see somebody did a video the other day from Portland, Oregon, of one of these parks where they've really done their best, you know, uh, uh, uh, the protestors. And it's just, it really does look like the apocalyptic wasteland they deserved.

Chris Williamson 29:23 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 29:23 Just covered in piss and just people just lying zonked out on whatever illegal or legal drugs they've been able to get. And everyone just looks like they've pissed themselves and they've taken...

Chris Williamson 29:36 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 29:36 They've taken... I'm, I'm, I'm-

Chris Williamson 29:38 Is everyone wearing a trench coat? That's what I imagine. Lots of trench coats.

Douglas Murray 29:41 Uh, they're all wearing someone else's trench coat. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:44 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Douglas Murray 29:44 And, and, and the, the... And, and they've got... All the statues are down, of course. The whole place is covered in plinths. Uh, uh, beautiful plinths everywhere. Uh, no, but they... And all the plinths are covered in BLM graffiti and "Fuck the State" and "Police are this." And that's what these people inherit and they deserve to inherit it. Uh, a urine-stenched, graffitied wasteland in which just zombies lie around until they die.

Chris Williamson 30:09 I really want to just put that as the trailer. That's just gonna be (laughs) the episode.

Douglas Murray 30:14 Well, that's, that's... You know, th- th- th- this is what they deserve. This is what they deserve. This is the final endpoint of their self. I can't believe that there are actually adults talking about this sort of stuff, and the New York Times and the New... you know-... and the NPR and things, taking these discussions seriously. We've, we, we've done the experi- many times before in human history of what happens when you have a total breakdown of law and order, and it always comes out looking exactly like Portland, Oregon.

Chris Williamson 30:43 What does "the silent majority need to stop being silent" mean?

Douglas Murray 30:48 Yes. This is something I'm very keen people take into account. I'm fed up of hearing about the silent majority. Um, I've heard about it all my life. I'm sure you have. People say, "Well, the silent majority don't believe that." I've always said, "But why are they silent? What's the problem? And if they're a majority, even more so."

Chris Williamson 31:05 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 31:05 What... That's... I- i- it makes no sense to me. Um, y- y- the, the thing that we've been told in recent years is the silent majority only stops being silent at elections when it silently votes in ways that surprise the rest of the country. The obvious-

Chris Williamson 31:24 Which it, which it seems is, is kind of, kind of true, right?

Douglas Murray 31:27 Yeah. The obvious example is, um, uh, Brexit vote in 2016 and the Trump vote in 2016. And, uh, uh, uh, then they say, "Well, now we've heard from the silent majority." And then that silent majority is said to be totally, you know, deplorable and, uh, um, and they should be, you know, somehow expunged in the democratic process because it doesn't know what it's doing, says the losing minority. Um, but, uh, yeah, I don't understand why it should be the case that people only make themselves heard at the ballot box once every four years or something like that. Um, so what I think is happening is, is back to where we started actually, is that a very small number of very voluble people are making all of the weather. Uh, and I don't see why they should, and the only reason they d- they do is because they manage to intimidate the majority into going along with things that we don't have to go along with. I just... I refuse, and I think everyone else should, to go along with any more of the crap. I strongly urge people to stop going along with the crap now. What does that mean? It means, for instance, if you work in a company and you are told that you're going to have a day where you've all got to think about racism, you either say no or you say, "What is it you're trying to make us learn and what are you trying to make us conclude? And are you right in that?" So I published, uh, a little while ago a letter I'd been leaked from the NHS Trust where this NHS Trust chief in Birmingham told everyone working for her what books to read, and I think that the people working for her and with her should not just laugh at her or say, "Oh my gosh, I didn't realize how racist I am in the NHS Trust in Birmingham. I had no idea that the NHS Trust in Birmingham was a place where the Fourth Reich was going to reemerge. Oh, we must stop it." They don't just do that. They say, "No. No. We're not going to spend the rest of our lives being told what to read, and told what to think, and told what to say, and told how to dance, and everything else. No. We're not gonna do it." And if ev- if the so-called silent majority did that, then we would be so much further forward as a society. And what's more, we can do it in a perfectly reasonable way. I, I've had the experience a lot in recent weeks, I'm sure you have, of wanting to have conversations about... You know, uh, the, by the way, you're always told, "Oh, we just want to have the conversation about it." No, you don't. You want to lecture people. But I'd be very happy to have conversations about colonialism and slavery and racism and the existence of racism throughout history across all races and all that. I'm very happy to have all those conversations. But actually, the people who say they want those conversations don't want the conversations. They just want to win. They just want-

Chris Williamson 34:29 What they want is to wear a unitard spandex khaki-colored sort of one-piece thing-

Douglas Murray 34:38 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 34:38 ... and tell you that you're racist and put their PayPal address up on the board. That's what they want to do.

Douglas Murray 34:41 Yeah, yeah, yeah. They want to be the Kim Jong Un of anti-racism-

Chris Williamson 34:45 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 34:46 ... and, um, to tell everyone, uh, um, what to believe. And, uh, I don't think that's, uh, uh... I'm, I'm not going along with that-

Chris Williamson 34:56 So I-

Douglas Murray 34:56 ... and I don't think other people should either.

Chris Williamson 34:58 I got a small confession to make, both to yourself and to the audience. I've been holding onto this story since we got to s- speak. So I had, uh, Carl Benjamin, Sargon of Akkad, on the show a few months ago, uh, and it was slap bang as Chaz was happening. So we're talking peak race tensions, right? And I've spoken to Carl before. We get on really well. Episodes are great. But for some reason, I had this ambient anxiety throughout the day leading up to it, and I started talking to him and I was really nervous. I don't usually get nervous, especially when speaking to guests for a second time. So it's just a fre... "Oh, how are you? How's this, that, and the other?"

Douglas Murray 35:36 Sure.

Chris Williamson 35:37 And, um, I found myself being super, super... Uh, it felt like I was treading on eggshells as I'm talking to him. And then upon listening back, even some of the things that I said I didn't agree with, I didn't agree with myself. And what I found-

Douglas Murray 35:49 What sort of things? Yeah, so... No, go on.

Chris Williamson 35:51 For, for instance, um, we were talking about should the Fawlty Towers episode be taken down, what's happening with Little Britain. Variety released a, uh, list of 10 problematic movies which need warnings and a discussion before-

Douglas Murray 36:02 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 36:02 ... and after watching. And I put this stuff forward to Carl and he gave his thoughts. And I just... After that was done, I, I said... I pushed the rhetoric of my compassion too far. I was saying basically, "I don't think that anyone should be offended," which isn't true because in order to communicate, you have to risk being offensive. That's the way it works.

Douglas Murray 36:20 Sure.

Chris Williamson 36:20 Another Jordan Petersonism. So anyway, what, what I found was that I had somehow managed to... And the listeners may be able to, uh, f- sense this within their own lives. I'd become so...... ignorant to where the goalposts were that I wasn't, I didn't even know what sport I was playing anymore. And I feel like this is the end goal-

Douglas Murray 36:41 (laughs) Hmm.

Chris Williamson 36:42 ... which a lot of the, um, smarter people who are using, uh, just- justice movements to further a particular agenda are hoping to achieve.

Douglas Murray 36:54 Yes.

Chris Williamson 36:54 To move the goalposts so fast that you don't know what's right, what's wrong-

Douglas Murray 36:58 Well-

Chris Williamson 36:58 ... what's anything else. And I was super nervous and that-

Douglas Murray 37:01 Yeah. Yeah. You're completely right.

Chris Williamson 37:02 ... that impacted me personally.

Douglas Murray 37:03 You're completely right, and here, here, here are a couple examples of that. Um, Tony Abbott, former Australian Prime Minister, uh, was appointed by the UK government as a trade advisor th- the last week. In the days leading up to his appointment, various people led by a number of left-wing broadcasters and newspapers claimed that Tony Abbott is a you can do it, homophobe, misogynist, granny killer, uh, g- they did actually do that, weird, and a, a global warming denier. And-

Chris Williamson 37:32 Bingo. That's the, that's the big four, isn't it? Bingo.

Douglas Murray 37:34 The... Well, no, the big, the biggest one, the fifth one they actually weren't quite brave enough to do, which was to accuse him of racism, but they accused him of all the other stuff. And, uh, he's none of those things, by the way. He's none of those things. Uh, he's a terrific, terrific guy and a terrific public servant and the former prime minister of Australia, for goodness' sake. Um, so anyway, but the point is that, is that the day be- the day before the appoint... the day of the appointment and the day after it, The Guardian had on the front page both days, "The government appoints misogynist advisor."

Chris Williamson 38:05 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 38:05 Okay. As if that's proven, okay? It's proven. I mean, they put it in quotes, scare quotes, just to make sure they were legally a bit on better t- terrain, but that was what they said. Now, if I was a young woman or a young man growing up with an ordinary level of incuriosity, I would look at that or might look at that and think, "That's awful. I mean, that's awful. The British government's deliberately appointing someone who, who hates women." Now, as it happens, the, the longer you go on in life, the more you, you, you get a sense of things and the more you realize what's bullshit in The Guardian and what's real life. But it is easy to see how somebody can be given a wrong view of an entire society once you imbibe little things like that. Now, that's an easy one. Let me give you a harder one, the killing of George Floyd. Um, we are in a very perilous position on this, all of us, because I don't know how much time you've spent in the US.

Chris Williamson 39:09 None.

Douglas Murray 39:09 I've spent a bit of... Uh, okay, so like me. They have racial problems that we don't have here, I would submit. Every country has racial problems. There's a pe- a peculiar and particular one that has existed in America throughout history. You could also argue that in the most militarized country in the world, the most militarized law enforcement, it has a likelihood of fatal encounters with the public that is higher than say in Britain, where most of the time the police just spend their time running away from protesters. Um, and, um, uh, but the point is, is that if you didn't know America that well... I'm giving here the, the, the nicest best analysis of something that's going on at the moment that I can do. If you didn't know America very well, you didn't know very many Americans and you read that this white cop had been allowed to kill a Black man on camera for eight minutes and that that was okay, as it were, and that this happened a lot, you would join Black Lives Matter. Y- y- absolutely. You would want to join something that said, "That's not on, that's not right." And the problem is that there are these moments... And by the way, Black Lives Matter was just primed for a George Floyd-like event, and, um, and, and lots of reasons to do with lockdown, I think the sort of the world was in a way. But what I think happens in those moments is, it's very hard for people to get a correct sense of exactly what is going on. So, "Maybe the police in America do kill Black people with impunity" is a thought that crosses your mind. "Maybe America is a racist state. Maybe the British police are like that. Maybe Britain's like that. Maybe we're all racist. Maybe there's such a thing as white supremacy and it's everywhere," and so on and so on and so forth. And it all starts from that first inaccurate estimation of what's going on. So the killer of George Floyd is in custody, awaiting trial on charge of murder. He literally has no defenders in the public sphere. He has a lawyer, but nobody says, "I think he did great." So what is this utilization of this one appalling incident? And it's widening out, not just to encompass say all police in the Minnesota area or all police in that st- all police in America, every white person in America, every white person on the planet. No, no, you don't get to do that. No way. But in that moment, you see certain very, very bad actors advancing because they feel they've got an advantage. And that is the moment when people become worried, because it's hard to interpret exactly what the situation is. And bad actors deliberately pump lies into the system. They say, "Yes, you can do this in America because Black lives aren't worth anything." There w- there were, there was a s- a very moving press conference with some of the police in New York where the police chief was just standing with his colleagues saying, "People are getting away with saying things..."... like, uh, uh, one activist said, "I don't even know if, we don't know if we're bla- if our children will return from school or whether they'll just be shot by the police." And this policeman was saying, "That isn't the case in America."

Chris Williamson 42:47 Are you mental? Yeah.

Douglas Murray 42:48 It's not the case. But again, if you don't know the country very well, or if you do and you have a certain understanding of it or a misunderstanding of it, or if you're a long way away, it's possible to imbibe those ideas. And so that's why I say that i- i- one of the deranging things in our time is that a very significant number of people, particularly young people, have been given or have given themselves an erroneous interpretation of the society they're in. And that's how you end up with the lunatic, you know, writing a book about the, in defense of looting. And that's how you end up with people on the streets of Portland running around looking for Nazis and not being able to find them, and so smashing in some old woman's face. You know, that's, that's how you get there. And reasonable people of any political direction just have to be able to say, "No, we're not going along." You know, you, you, what it, it is actually, it's like the Roman legion thing that the people in Portland sort of tried to do. They use terrible and very freakish events to push forward, and behind them is a whole legion of hell. That is the purpose. That is what BLM and others have been doing, and it has to be said by people of every background, that is not on. You should not be able to make defamatory claims, sweeping claims about whole races of people and whole societies in this manner. And at the moment, certainly in the weeks immediately after that, it was very, very difficult to say that. It's becoming easier, but I wi- it's a classic example of I wish we weren't stopped from having that discussion, and we're only stopped from having it because dishonest actors say if you add any nuance to, to it, then you are basically on the side of the guy who killed George Floyd.

Chris Williamson 44:51 I think a big part of this is to do with the fact that we are not built to imbibe the entire world's news instantly 24/7.

Douglas Murray 45:03 Yes.

Chris Williamson 45:03 There is too much stimulus and too much information. And also in the past, in order to have got your message to reach 10,000 people, half a million people, 10 million people, you would have had to have had jumped through some hoops that made sure you had integrity or virtue or capacity, whatever it might be.

Douglas Murray 45:24 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:24 Whereas now, the right tweet at the right time about the right thing that just sounds good can get a million impressions within 24 hours. We're not m-

Douglas Murray 45:32 Yes.

Chris Williamson 45:33 That's not the way that it's supposed to be.

Douglas Murray 45:35 No, exactly.

Chris Williamson 45:35 This isn't, this isn't a counter to free speech. Your desire to be able to say whatever you want does not mean that I have to listen to it. This is what Helen Pluckrose-

Douglas Murray 45:43 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 45:43 ... said the other day.

Douglas Murray 45:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:44 Um, and as a, uh, it might be a little outdated now, but I know that you're a massive fan of Sam Harris's Pull Back from the Brink podcast, which as far as I was concerned-

Douglas Murray 45:53 Hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:53 ... was the best sense-making I saw around this.

Douglas Murray 45:55 Very good. Very good.

Chris Williamson 45:55 Wonderful.

Douglas Murray 45:56 Very good.

Chris Williamson 45:56 And that ties back to what we were saying about J.K. Rowling, that if you have the capacity and the platform and the uncancellable-ness, um, that gives you license to do this, doing it is a good idea.

Douglas Murray 46:11 Yeah, but let me just add one other thing. It's not just people in that position. Um, the hero of the hour to me is the young woman in the DC restaurant who wouldn't raise her fist when the mob told her to. She isn't famous or she wasn't famous. She cer- almost certainly had no idea that she was the person who would stand against the crowd. She did, and everyone should want to be her. That's the goal. That's the goal in this era, is not to go along with the crowd. You see, because the crowd says, "This terrible thing has happened." And as you say, our sense-making apparatus is all shot, and we don't have the time, and like, okay, I, I could study all the footage of the arrest of George Floyd and then look into the arrest histories of the arresting officers and his own past and all of that. W- I could do all that or I could live my bloody life. But okay, if we're forced to do all of this sort of thing, whenever there's an, an explosion like this, at the very least, there should be a, there should be a reward to people who do not say, "Yeah, of course, I'll go along with whatever it is you're telling me I've got to go along with." That's why I say that the job in this era of reasonable and decent people is to not join the crowd. I'm very... But I mean, it may just be that I, I, I don't have a great crowd love in built, particularly.

Chris Williamson 47:54 You and me both.

Douglas Murray 47:55 Right. I- I'm not, I'm, I don't even particularly like large sporting events for that reason.

Chris Williamson 48:00 Been bliss for you this summer, though.

Douglas Murray 48:02 Oh, yeah. No, I, no, I mean, I-

Chris Williamson 48:04 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 48:04 ... I don't, and I wouldn't want to go and be the only person in the stadium either. But, uh, the point is, I, I just don't, I don't like very, very large crowds because I know what they can do. And, uh, I'm much happier, uh, as a just, I speak for myself, I'm very happy to hold my own opinion and justify it to whoever wants to take it on. But I do feel that the crowd fear that some of us have is because we know how swiftly it can stampede in a wicked direction.

Chris Williamson 48:41 Mm-hmm.

Douglas Murray 48:41 ... and I do think that's happening. I'm not overstating it. I do think it's happening. I think that the people who are, are, are allowing that Roman legion-like thing to happen, who behind them have people saying, "We want to destroy capitalism. We want to destroy the free market. We want to des- destroy the foundations of civil order, you know, property rights." And, I mean, they, they now say this thing. They say, "Oh, well, these businesses are insured, so it doesn't matter." How dare you? How dare you? When some family has saved and worked like anything all their lives to have some, uh, business that can provide for the- their children, and you decide that you can guess in advance what their insurance policy is, so you have the right to burn the damn thing down? They are trying to smuggle all those things in at the moment behind the first shield. And I say the job of the era is for people to say no, to resist the crowd. Doesn't matter what it tells you to do, don't do it. Hold your own counsel. Don't go along with it. If for no other reason than that we cannot operate as a species, vulnerable to one person acting appallingly somewhere else on the planet at any one time. There's no way.

Chris Williamson 50:08 It's a Trojan horse delivery mechanism with a bunch-

Douglas Murray 50:12 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 50:12 ... of, a bunch of very bad actors behind it.

Chris Williamson 50:15 Have you heard of woke fishing?

Douglas Murray 50:19 No, I don't think I have.

Chris Williamson 50:21 You are going to love this. The New York Post, uh, sums it up as the woke fish dating trend, shady men are pretending to be progressive on apps-

Douglas Murray 50:32 Oh, dear.

Chris Williamson 50:32 ... in an effort to bed progressive girls. According to writer Serena Smith, "Woke fishermen are masquerading as progressive in order to get laid," similar to the phenomenon of catfishing where there is, uh, people post fake dating profile photos. Um, and there's a quote here from Reddit of a particular successful woke fisherman who said-

Douglas Murray 50:53 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 50:53 ... "It worked. I went to an anti-Trump rally, started screaming 'Fuck Trump,' and a bunch of people joined in. I kept doing it all night until some girl, some cute girl entered our group, and then we hooked up later that night."

Douglas Murray 51:07 Uh, he is, um ... This is what I call cuttlefishing, of course.

Chris Williamson 51:11 I think this is different. I think that this is doing it from a much more troll- trolley sort of ... I, I think he's purposefully doing it to say, "Right, this is just a tool that I can use."

Douglas Murray 51:23 Right.

Chris Williamson 51:23 As opposed to someone who genuinely believes it. I think the-

Douglas Murray 51:26 No, no, no, no, but I always said the cuttlefish didn't believe it.

Chris Williamson 51:29 You don't think?

Douglas Murray 51:29 No, no, no, no.

Chris Williamson 51:30 I think that some of the guys are, are so self-deceptive that they genuinely believe that that's what they're doing, it's just their method of getting themselves in, that-

Douglas Murray 51:36 One of my... No. One of my, one of my favorite conversations that I've had regularly in the years since Madness of Crowds came out was with young heterosexual men who I described the cuttlefish maneuver to, and they burst out laughing.

Chris Williamson 51:48 'Cause that was their dating strategy of choice.

Douglas Murray 51:49 Yeah, of course, 'cause the, the, it's the laughter of self-recognition.

Chris Williamson 51:52 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 51:53 Um, I, it's happened so many times in the last year. And, um, y- y- uh, I do think it's cynical. Uh, I think woke fishing is obviously just, uh, uh, an extension of this. I like the, I like this idea of the woke fisherman, like with his, with his gnarled hands, from his time-

Chris Williamson 52:13 (laughs) With a big beard and one of those little hats on top.

Douglas Murray 52:15 ... from his time-

Chris Williamson 52:15 Smoking a pipe.

Douglas Murray 52:16 ... at the woke sea.

Chris Williamson 52:18 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 52:18 Um, uh, but, well, these people deserve each other. Um, and of course, it's all a consequence, again, of us not having the conversations we should have been able to have. Um, y- y- i- if we, if we had reasonable conversations about men and women and relations between the sexes instead of allowing the craziest and most deranged and unhappy people to dictate all of the weather, then you wouldn't be able to have the situation where one person knowing they're being a liar attracts another person who they have contempt for.

Chris Williamson 52:54 (laughs) Well, I mean-

Douglas Murray 52:56 Which seems to me to be a suboptimal start to a relationship.

Chris Williamson 52:59 Perhaps. Um, also, if the difference between you sleeping with someone and not sleeping with someone is whether or not they shout, "Fuck Trump," I think-

Douglas Murray 53:09 Oh, yes. Yes, yes, yes.

Chris Williamson 53:09 ... I think that there's something amiss here with, you know, the knobs and the, the dials need to be adjusted.

Douglas Murray 53:15 There's, there, there's a, there's a more than a little bit that's wrong with that. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 53:20 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 53:20 I don't think you should r- uh, just restrict yourself to one thing being wrong with that. Um, there's an awful lot of oddities in this. By the way, the bo- by the w- in general, in recent years, the sort of, the politicization of dating is something that's very, very interesting. And what I'm always interested in that is the way in which it's one-directional. Um, uh, y- as far as I know, on gay and straight dating apps, you don't find people saying, um, "No Democrats."

Chris Williamson 53:55 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 53:55 Or, um, "No, no pro-EU."

Chris Williamson 54:01 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 54:03 It's only ever the other way around. Like-

Chris Williamson 54:04 So there's a running joke-

Douglas Murray 54:05 "No Brexiteers, no Trumpies."

Chris Williamson 54:07 There's a running joke in the dating scene, um, any guy who puts moderate on Hinge is a Republican. And the, um-

Douglas Murray 54:16 Right.

Chris Williamson 54:16 ... sense here is that the Overton window of optimal political, um, preference on dating has been shifted so far left that moderate is now Nazi.

Douglas Murray 54:29 Yes, yes. No, I can see the problem there. Um, uh, uh-

Chris Williamson 54:32 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 54:32 By the way, uh, uh, at The Spectator, we published a very good column a couple years ago by Cosmo Landesman, a wonderful journalist, uh, who's one of those journalists who I particularly love because he always writes columns that you think, "Oh my God, I can't believe that somebody wrote that and-"... allowed it to be published, that's fantastic. He wrote a very funny column about why sex with right-wing women is a lot better than having sex with left-wing women.

Chris Williamson 54:54 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 54:54 And one of my favorite details of this was that during sex, with somebody who he said worked at The Guardian...

Chris Williamson 55:03 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 55:05 ... at some point during the encounter, he, um, used the phrase, um, "You love it, you bitch."

Chris Williamson 55:12 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 55:13 Now, you and I might think that using the term, "You love it, you bitch," to a Guardian employee is treading in risky terrain.

Chris Williamson 55:24 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 55:25 Anyhow, it struck Cosmo as being the mot juste at the time and, um, he came out with it. She immediately- immediately- apparently immediately stopped proceedings and made it clear that, uh, something along the lines of, "Just because we're having sex doesn't mean that you can degrade me as a woman." And, uh, Cosmo was sort of, you know, stuck in a tricky position here, and I think said something along the lines of, "No, no. Sure, sure, sure. Uh, can I start again though?"

Chris Williamson 55:55 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 55:55 "Uh, can I get back in?" And, uh, and I- I don't know exactly how it finished. Maybe it didn't.

Chris Williamson 56:03 Mm-hmm.

Douglas Murray 56:04 But anyhow, the point is, is this, he sa- he said this is a nightmare, this is the sort of thing that happens with left-wing women, and right-wing women an awful lot more fun in the sack, and this is provable. And I'm, I don't think we have pie charts, graphs, or anything else...

Chris Williamson 56:18 If someone can provide them...

Douglas Murray 56:20 ... to prove this, but I hear it... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 56:21 Please I will.

Douglas Murray 56:22 But I hear this story all the time and I- I think, I think it's, um, it's, uh, it's definitely the case, uh, on the gay scene. Uh, uh, you- you- you wouldn't want, uh, you wouldn't want to date an Extinction Rebellion protester. You- you wouldn't want that. You wouldn't want to be, um, you wouldn't want to be with somebody who s- who you had to weigh... I mean, I'm not d- even just talking about the sex. I'm talking about the fact that you wouldn't want to be with somebody who you were forever having to check what you were saying with and who might... Instead of the normal thing, most sort of normal people, it's not even a left-right thing, if somebody says something that they sort of don't agree with, they say, "Well, I- I don't agree with that." And then- then you say, "That's interesting. Why?" And then they tell you. That's a normally human interaction. You wouldn't want-

Chris Williamson 57:11 That is a relationship. You argue about the kid's name.

Douglas Murray 57:13 That's a relation-

Chris Williamson 57:13 "Oh, I want to call it Alicia."

Douglas Murray 57:14 Yes.

Chris Williamson 57:14 "No, no, I don't like Alicia. My aunt used to be called Alicia. She was a bitch."

Douglas Murray 57:18 Yes. U- u- exactly. Or- or just, you know, things like, "You know, I've always had this... I've always thought this." And- and then, you know, you... Right? And that's- that's what, it's- it's one of the nice things about relationships, you just discover the other person, discover the oddity of the other person quite often, and, uh, you know, and that's all, that's all good. You wouldn't want to be with somebody, nobody should want to be with somebody who's policing all the time around the boundaries to make sure that you're exactly in lockstep with what you're meant to believe today.

Chris Williamson 57:46 It seems b-

Douglas Murray 57:47 Who would want that?

Chris Williamson 57:48 It seems bizarre to me, especially that 69 is quite a popular sex position, it seems bizarre to me that you can have seen someone's asshole inches from your eyes and not be allowed to call them a bitch. It's like, look, we are... (laughs) Does he-

Douglas Murray 58:03 I agree. It's outrageous.

Chris Williamson 58:05 Look, the- the sex police need to steam in and- and have a- ha- have a discussion.

Douglas Murray 58:10 Well, as I've always said, by the way, I mean, the- the- the hardest one on that one is- is how the rules are like that and, uh, what's her name? E.L. James? I don't want to say P.D. James.

Chris Williamson 58:22 Fifty Shades, Fifty Shades of Grey.

Douglas Murray 58:22 Not P.D.James. Fifty Shades of Grey woman. Uh, th- that sells by the bucket load. I mean, that, I think I say that in Man Is A Crowd somewhere. That's a very weird, I mean, you know, it's a very weird thing that nobody bothered to have out, that at the same time as, you know, all of the increasing policing about relations between the sexes were going on, women were buying hardcore S&M fiction porn by the truckload. I mean, it definitely wasn't all men buying that.

Chris Williamson 58:50 You know it sold, it sold like more copies than the next four top selling of the top five books ever.

Douglas Murray 58:57 Right. Right.

Chris Williamson 58:58 In like combined. Insane.

Douglas Murray 58:59 So it- ex- exactly. And so, w- what... And all of this is so damn interesting.

Chris Williamson 59:05 Yes. Yeah.

Douglas Murray 59:05 It's so interesting. And, uh, nobody talks about it or can have the conversation about it.

Chris Williamson 59:12 We are right now.

Douglas Murray 59:12 We are right now.

Chris Williamson 59:13 Subscribe below. Um, are you bored of talking about social justice?

Douglas Murray 59:19 Hmm. In one way, no, because they're so endlessly entertaining. Uh, the opposition, y- you think they can't come up with anything worse and madder, and then they do. And, um, you think, "I'm sure that must be a satire." And it turns out not to be. And, uh, they make the same mistakes in the same order every time. Yeah, I- I mean, that stuff is endlessly, you know... I mean, y- there are never... By the way, there's some very serious ones. I mean, there was one that came up the other day, the American Psychological Association decided to become a sort of racist organization. It announced that all white people have the, uh, ha- have- have white supremacy and a blood pr- a blood problem basically, by being white. And now, of course, the American Psychological Association last year decided that men were a problem. So I- I just sort of think at some point, the American Psychological Association is gonna have to refer itself to a psychologist, I suppose.

Chris Williamson 1:00:14 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 1:00:16 But- but- but- but, you know, they do this on a very regular basis. The UN did it today. The UN, uh, declared that, uh, oh, what was it? Yeah, until we address, oh, you know, the usual thing. It says cisheteronormativity, patriarchy, there won't be peace in the world. And you think, "Yeah, I don't know if that's gonna solve Yemen."

Chris Williamson 1:00:35 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 1:00:35 Um, but, uh, there- there- there, uh, I mean, that, you know, it's actually what you do if you can't solve Yemen, isn't it? You start jabbering on about heteronormativity somewhere in Geneva. But- but, uh, uh, uh, yeah, they come up with things every day.... I'm fascinated by that, but I also don't spend all my time on it, or at least, let me, uh, let, let me rephrase that. I spend, uh, uh, too much of my time on it, but I always balance it out with something worthwhile.

Chris Williamson 1:01:04 Right.

Douglas Murray 1:01:04 So I lit- literally think of it like sustenance. If I spend some hours imbibing the latest crazy shit that everyone's doing today, I read a really good book, or I watch a terrific movie I've never seen. I don't-

Chris Williamson 1:01:20 So you're allowed, you're allowed to eat the hamburger as long as you go and go to the gym at some point?

Douglas Murray 1:01:24 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:01:24 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 1:01:25 I absolutely advise this for everybody. Like, the joy of reading old books, the joy of watching old movies. You know, just take a m- a classic movie you never bothered with or a classic book you've never read and read it. It's the best antidote to it. And by the way, it's not just an antidote. It's very important because it reminds you how people lived until the weird era we're in. It helps give you very basic things that our era is losing, perspective, sense of judgment, uh, and much more. So that's, uh, uh, uh, uh, you know, tha- tha- that really is an important tip, if I can say so. Um, people cannot imbibe just what we're

Douglas Murray 1:02:07 being told to imbibe.

Chris Williamson 1:02:08 You said on the trigonometry episode I watched, that we're standing on the precipice. And it's interesting that you use that word because I've been thinking about this for quite a while. Toby Ord, who is from the Future of Humanities Institute at Oxford, um, he wrote a book called The Precipice.

Douglas Murray 1:02:22 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:02:23 And it's all about existential threat. Wonderful.

Douglas Murray 1:02:25 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yes, yes, yes. I've, I've, I've heard him. Yes, yes.

Chris Williamson 1:02:27 Wonderful. Australian dude.

Douglas Murray 1:02:29 Yep, I know him.

Chris Williamson 1:02:29 Uh, also big into the, um, effective altruism movement. Fantastic-

Douglas Murray 1:02:33 Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I read him on altruism. That's right.

Chris Williamson 1:02:35 Huge, uh, big-picture thinking.

Douglas Murray 1:02:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:02:38 Um, and he called his book The Precipice.

Douglas Murray 1:02:40 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:02:40 And he gives humanity's chances of surviving the next century one in three. He gives humanity's chances of reaching our full potential as a civilization, space-faring, colonize the galaxy, uh, one in two.

Douglas Murray 1:02:59 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:02:59 So the vast majority of our risk as a species is front-loaded within the next century.

Douglas Murray 1:03:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:05 My concern is that smart people like you, like Gad Saad, like Sam Harris are using up brain power on things that are self-defeating.

Douglas Murray 1:03:19 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:03:19 There's a, a concept by Robin Hanson called the Great Filter, which explains the Fermi paradox, why are there not aliens out there. He suggests that there is a particular section that we need to get past. And-

Douglas Murray 1:03:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:32 ... given that some of the smartest minds of the last few years have spent an inordinate amount of time trying to work out whether men are women or not-

Douglas Murray 1:03:40 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:03:40 ... to me, feels like that could be the-

Douglas Murray 1:03:44 (clears throat)

Chris Williamson 1:03:44 Y- if that's the reason-

Douglas Murray 1:03:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:03:46 ... that as a species, we don't reach our full potential-

Douglas Murray 1:03:49 Yes.

Chris Williamson 1:03:49 ... because we decided to have these stupid tribal, uh, uh, uh, like, childish, completely-

Douglas Murray 1:03:56 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:56 ... idiotic, self-defeating discussions-

Douglas Murray 1:03:59 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:59 ... when the asteroid comes or a slightly more effective pathogen hits or pick your, any one of the other existential risks that Toby brings up in his book, like, we did this to ourselves. We, we blew it.

Douglas Murray 1:04:12 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, I c- I couldn't agree more. I've s- I've said this quite often. In my own defense-

Chris Williamson 1:04:17 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 1:04:17 ... and if I'm not going to do it, who would? Uh, the purpose of, for instance, Madness of Crowds is to give everyone else a fast track out. Uh, I can't stress this enough. James Lindsay and Helen Pluckrose, as you just mentioned, that you've spoken with, um, also do an excellent task in, in, in a portion of this to do with the academic, uh, element in their new book, um, Cynical Theories. The point is, is that I don't want everyone to spend their life reading unreadable books. I've read a s- significant number of them in order to tell people not to read them because it's not worth their time. And it's the same with quite a lot of the subjects I deal with in the Madness of Crowds, is to say, "This doesn't work. Don't fall for it. This is a Ponzi scheme. That's a fraud." Now, that is not because I want to spend the rest of my life talking about mad Ponzi schemes invented by frauds. It's because I want everyone else to get through and all round or across this or over the top of this or burrow underneath it, however you're gonna do it, as fast as possible. It's very hard to do it if you don't know what you're facing, 'cause if you don't know what you're facing, you've got a disproportionate likelihood of getting killed, blown up. If you know what you're facing and you know the shortcut ways through, it's likely you can get on with the rest of your life. And that's why I did the m- that's why I wrote the Madness of Crowds, first of all, and why I have n- and now, now updated it, is because I wanted to stop particularly young people, first of all, feeling intimidated by this, including intellectually intimidated, because they shouldn't feel intellectually intimidated by this. Um, secondly, for them to realize the m- the size of the thing that was, th- they're being faced with. In o- other words, a total reorganization of everything, which I submit is not gonna work. But crucially, that in kn- uh, in knowing and understanding this, you can get through and get on with your life. And this is, this is a very important task because I absolutely agree that for a lot of us, I mean, millions and millions of us, everybody on the planet, we are wasting an opportunity at the moment. And the opportunity is, as you s- as you describe, is that at this...... time in our history. There is so much we can do because we have access to knowledge in a way that we never did in the past. Our forebears had to- had to live with ignorance on a lot of things, a lot of things. And the v- most obvious one is if you didn't have access to a book, you didn't know what was in it. Who doesn't now have access to a book? If they've got a relatively small sum of money, um, they can join a lending library or they can buy a book on like ... They c- You can get a classic book. You can, you can get hold of things. Very recently, our parents' generation, our grandparents' generation, certainly, that wasn't the case. So that's n- tha- that's the case in area after area. We live in a time where instead of being in ignorance about so many things, you just, you can just put it in- into a search engine. And why, in that situation, are we spending our time, as you say, talking about whether or not intersex people with a particular condition are the same as trans people? I mean, I, I often used to joke, you know, this is what... uh, mod- Uh, this is what happens when the b- barbarians break in. You know. We'll all get Kalashnikov'd whilst talking about gender-neutral bathrooms. What a horrible last thought-

Chris Williamson 1:08:11 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 1:08:11 ... to go through your head.

Chris Williamson 1:08:12 (laughs) I know.

Douglas Murray 1:08:13 And, and I've always thought that and, and as I say, a self-appointed task of mine is to try to help other people get through that itself. But I stress, and I think I said this the other day to the people on trigonometry, there is also a very, very important thing that people need to bear in mind, which is not to put off what you're meant to be doing with your life. Not to put it off in particular because you want the conditions of life to become optimal. I, I think... I don't... I have it here somewhere. Uh, I, uh, I said to the trigonometry people the other day, I was reading a s- a sermon that C.S. Lewis gave in 1939 just at the outbreak of war. And it's such a moving sermon because he says in it, um, you know, th- these aren't optimal times, but they never were. They never were. And as he says, if human beings put off their search for beauty and truth and creation until the times were optimal, they'd never have got started. We would never have started doing anything. And the thing that's so desperate about the politicization of everything, and the reason I say to people, "Please depoliticize your lives," is because it is not what you are meant to do. It's not what we were meant to do, to spend our time endlessly going around such issues. All of us, every single person watching, you and me, all have an enormous amount that we could do with our life, an enormous amount we can contribute. Probably the least positive thing we can contribute is to some mass movement that's almost certainly got enough members anyway, even if it was going in a good direction, and they almost never do. And what you're meant to be doing should not be put off until that movement gains total ascendancy. Firstly, because it won't, and secondly, because it'll be hell even if it did. So don't put it off, whatever it is you're meant to be doing, but do work out how to survive in this era and then get on to doing the thing you should be doing with your life, because I can assure every single person watching, it is gonna be so much more damn rewarding than what you're being offered at the moment.

Chris Williamson 1:10:38 Topics like that and that particular passage that you pulled from the sermon in 1939, that's what I want more of. That's what I want-

Douglas Murray 1:10:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:10:46 ... people like James Lindsay with a PhD in pure mathematics.

Douglas Murray 1:10:50 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:10:51 Bro, stop. S- I don't want the world to have... He should be getting us to Mars. He should be trying to do... That's what I want to hear. I want to hear more-

Douglas Murray 1:10:58 I agree.

Chris Williamson 1:10:58 ... of that, um, timeless-

Douglas Murray 1:11:00 I agree.

Chris Williamson 1:11:00 ... evergreen wisdom, you know-

Douglas Murray 1:11:02 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:11:02 ... that is going to be the sort of thing that's usable in 50 years' time or 100 years' time, because-

Douglas Murray 1:11:06 I agree.

Chris Williamson 1:11:07 ... critical race theory isn't. I have two quick questions before we go.

Douglas Murray 1:11:11 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:11:12 Uh, first one, who wins the US presidential election this year?

Douglas Murray 1:11:16 Uh, I don't think it's gonna be clear.

Chris Williamson 1:11:19 You're going to stick to both sides don't agree?

Douglas Murray 1:11:23 I th- I think that there's gonna be a lot of contested, um, areas. Uh, and I think that it'll be hard for either side to concede. I think it's, hell...

Chris Williamson 1:11:35 That's gonna be the end of that. Um, final thing.

Douglas Murray 1:11:37 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:11:39 What's your gym routine looked like in 2020?

Douglas Murray 1:11:41 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:11:41 Because there was a period that I brought up with Dave Rubin when he came on the show, um, maybe sort of the last 18 months up until the start of this year, where you went from normal Douglas Murray to jacked Douglas Murray.

Douglas Murray 1:11:55 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:11:56 And I wanna know, I wanna know what you've been doing.

Douglas Murray 1:11:59 Um, hmm. Uh...

Douglas Murray 1:12:02 (laughs) Not something I talk about very much.

Chris Williamson 1:12:05 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 1:12:06 Um, the simple reason is I- I've s- I've stopped wearing suits partly because I thought if it was gonna be the end of the world, I didn't have to put on a tie.

Chris Williamson 1:12:13 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 1:12:13 And, (laughs) um, and, um, but I, I, I've alwa- I've worked out all... well, quite a long time, 15 years, 20 years or so. Uh, for me, it's, it's, um, it's like the mo- most important point of the day when I turn my mind off. Uh, I think it's very, very good for people for that, uh, people like me who basically work all the time. It, it... Well, not work all the time, think all the time. You know, when I'm not writing, I'm reading and, and, and, and, and, you know, uh, and that's great, but I actually do need a time to turn off. And so for me, the gym has always been that. Um, and, uh, well, I mean, I don't know if I can tell you my exact routine. I, I haven't train-

Chris Williamson 1:12:55 Well, I mean, is it a chest... Is it a push-pull legs split? What, are you, are you in five days a week?... the people I know.

Douglas Murray 1:13:01 Uh, yeah, normally four or five days a week, uh, w- three at the absolute worst. Lockdown was tricky as it was for a lot of people because however many of those band things you get, they never (laughs) quite approximate the weight. Um, and, um, and I'm also, I'm very anti-running in public.

Chris Williamson 1:13:23 Okay.

Douglas Murray 1:13:24 I'm very-

Chris Williamson 1:13:25 Is- is there a-

Douglas Murray 1:13:25 I'm very, very ... I, I ... It's not just I don't like to do it myself, I don't like seeing people coming towards me on the pavement gibbering and sweating and dribbling. Uh, s- (laughs) so, so for me, exercise has to be in the gym. Uh, it has to be confined to that place.

Chris Williamson 1:13:41 But I think whatever you did-

Douglas Murray 1:13:42 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:13:42 ... over the, the, that 18-month period, there was... I can't remember where the photo was that went sort of semi, semi-sort of viral online. Um-

Douglas Murray 1:13:50 I was... Weirdly, I know exactly what you're talking about because it was when I discovered-

Chris Williamson 1:13:52 It's from behind. It's a lot ... There's a lot of tricep in it. And, and you got a little bit of a beard.

Douglas Murray 1:13:56 It was, it was when the ... It was when I, um, discovered what a thirst pic was, which was not something I'd ever encountered before. People said to me, "You've posted a thirst pic." And I said, "What's that?" Eh, and, uh, yes, I know exactly when it was. I was in Mexico and I happened to be in the study that Trotsky was assassinated in, which is not the obvious place to- (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:14:15 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 1:14:16 If you-

Chris Williamson 1:14:16 To post a thirst trap picture in Trotsky's-

Douglas Murray 1:14:18 If you were, if you were deliberately posting a thirst pic, you probably wouldn't choose an assassination site.

Chris Williamson 1:14:23 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 1:14:24 Um, anyhow, it was very kind of and flattering of people. And, um, I'm deeply grateful. And obviously, the next book will be a Davina McCall-like workout with Douglas.

Chris Williamson 1:14:36 I want a home DVD, booty-

Douglas Murray 1:14:39 And-

Chris Williamson 1:14:39 ... bo- bums and tums with Douglas Murray.

Douglas Murray 1:14:42 No.

Chris Williamson 1:14:42 And comment below, comment below if you'd buy it, and maybe we'll get that. Oh, this is the final thing. I lied to you. Um, you said if you hit the bestseller list that you might consider reading the lyrics to WAP. Is-

Douglas Murray 1:14:54 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:14:54 Can w- i- Do we think that might happen?

Douglas Murray 1:14:56 I have actually just heard the news (laughs) from my publishers-

Chris Williamson 1:15:00 Okay.

Douglas Murray 1:15:00 ... that we have made the bestseller list this week on its first week. Um, yes, I, um (laughs) -

Chris Williamson 1:15:09 This is ... The internet is listening, man.

Douglas Murray 1:15:11 I'm going to be ... I'm going to be held to this, aren't I?

Chris Williamson 1:15:13 Yes.

Douglas Murray 1:15:14 It was a, it was a, it was a, it was a ... Started as a dare with a friend. It was because, as you, as you probably know, I recited the works of Emin Minaj in, uh, in, um, uh, particularly her work on Anaconda, uh, in, uh, the Audible version of Madness of Crowds. And a lot of people, um, particularly enjoyed that. So I said, um, "If you enjoyed that, then if this becomes a bestseller, I'll do WAP." Also because Ben Shapiro-

Chris Williamson 1:15:40 Smashed it.

Douglas Murray 1:15:41 ... smashed it.

Chris Williamson 1:15:41 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 1:15:42 Um, I, I, I feel a certain level of competition with Ben Shapiro's rendition.

Chris Williamson 1:15:46 But do you think he's kind of tried to take your thunder a little bit there?

Douglas Murray 1:15:49 Th- I was worried about that. I was worried about that. I thought it was quite a strong play. And, um ... And so I do think if, if, if Madness of Crowds Audible edition, which I strongly recommend and which is updated with the new material and all that, if that, um, uh, makes it into the bestseller list again in Audible, then I will do a rendition. And unlike Ben, I can promise now, I will not say the P word for the P word. I, I will do the whole thing. I'll do the whole thing.

Chris Williamson 1:16:19 There we have it. Ladies and gentlemen, uh, link to the new updated paperback version of The Madness of Crowds is below. If you've got an Audible subscription, I implore you for the good of-

Douglas Murray 1:16:28 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:16:29 ... all that is holy, please use your credit for this w- this month on The Madness of Crowds. Uh, Douglas, it's so good. I, I can't wait to get you back, man. It's, uh-

Douglas Murray 1:16:38 Great talking to you, man.

Chris Williamson 1:16:38 I always love talking to you.

Douglas Murray 1:16:39 A great pleasure. Well, likewise. See you soon, I hope, and take care. Yeah. UH- Yeah. Uh-huh.