Topics People Are Too Afraid To Talk About - Douglas Murray | Modern Wisdom Podcast 219

1. 0:00 – 4:00

   Intro

   1. DMDouglas Murray0:00

      Somebody did a video the other day from Portland, Oregon of one of these parks where they've really done their best, you know, the protestors. And it's just, it really does look like the apocalyptic wasteland they deserve. Just covered in p- and just people just lying zonked out on whatever illegal or legal drugs they've been able to get, and everyone just looks like they've p- themselves.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:20

      (laughs)

   3. DMDouglas Murray0:20

      And they've taken... All the statues are down, of course. The whole place is covered in plinths, beautiful plinths everywhere.

   4. CWChris Williamson0:26

      (laughs)

   5. DMDouglas Murray0:26

      Uh, no, but they're... And all the plinths are covered in BLM graffiti and "Fuck the state" and "Police" and this. And that's what these people inherit, and they deserve to inherit it. A, a urine-stenched, graffitied wasteland in which just zombies lie around until they die.

   6. CWChris Williamson0:44

      (wind blowing) I'm joined by Douglas Murray. Douglas, welcome to the show.

   7. DMDouglas Murray0:49

      Great to be with you again. It's been-

   8. CWChris Williamson0:51

      Great.

   9. DMDouglas Murray0:51

      ... uh, what? Two y- a year probably. Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson0:54

       One year.

   11. DMDouglas Murray0:54

       One year.

   12. CWChris Williamson0:54

       One year since we spoke, and it feels like-

   13. DMDouglas Murray0:56

       And you've done your ceiling.

   14. CWChris Williamson0:57

       I've done my ceiling. So all of-

   15. DMDouglas Murray0:59

       (laughs)

   16. CWChris Williamson0:59

       ... the people on the internet that were complaining and saying, "What is that mold on the ceiling?" It wasn't. It was candle soot. I went through a period where I loved Yankee Candles for a while, but we're out the other side. Uh, but yeah, it was only a year ago, which feels like 75 years ago.

   17. DMDouglas Murray1:13

       Doesn't it just? Doesn't it just? Uh, we're both looking okay despite that, I'd like to think. (laughs)

   18. CWChris Williamson1:20

       I hope so. I mean, I've lost an Achilles, but, um, that's, that's really the only thing that's gone wrong. So th- at the end of 2019 when The Madness of Crowds came out, I asked you what chapters you could have added which you omitted.

   19. DMDouglas Murray1:32

       Mm-hmm.

   20. CWChris Williamson1:32

       And you said mental health and green. What's your answer in 2020?

   21. DMDouglas Murray1:38

       I think I'd, I'd s- stay with that. Um, green in particular has been really doing well in the lunatic Olympics.

   22. CWChris Williamson1:48

       (laughs)

   23. DMDouglas Murray1:48

       Um, (laughs) they, they, they've, they've got a whole new wardrobe of lunacy. Uh, (laughs) they've got new makeup that shows they're mad. They actually dress to say, "I'm mad." Um, so I, I do feel still a bit annoyed that I never did the green chapter. But as I say, there's, there's an awful lot of material in those guys and girls. Um, uh, I would observe simply though that since we last spoke, everything I write about in The Madness of Crowds, everything I do put in on gay, on women, on race, and on trans has just... (smacks lips) Which, you know, I could see coming. It was why I was trying to warn people about it. And, uh, but goodness, particularly in the last few months, so much more than I ever feared could happen this fast.

   24. CWChris Williamson2:46

       Do you feel vindicated that you got it right or sad that it occurred as you prophesized?

   25. DMDouglas Murray2:50

       Do you know, I don't like vindication all that much.

   26. CWChris Williamson2:52

       (laughs) Oh yeah. Yeah, it's good.

   27. DMDouglas Murray2:53

       I mean, th-

   28. CWChris Williamson2:53

       You should try it sometime.

   29. DMDouglas Murray2:55

       Yeah, I mean, it, it's always nice when people point it out, but, uh, it actually doesn't feel that great then because if you say, "Look, here's this terrible thing that's coming towards you," uh, and then it happens anyway, you know, you feel like maybe you didn't warn well enough or you didn't warn w- you know, clearly enough or something like that. But I might be overdoing what you can achieve in, in, in warning. But, you know, I, I, I do feel that those of us, and there are a number of us who said, "Look, dig down into these identity traits things and you won't heal society. You'll, you'll make it more discombobulated and eventually you'll make it more divided. And you're not gonna solve it. You're gonna make it worse." You know, a number of us said that, but, you know, too many people thought, "No, we love the sound of the apocalypse you're talking about."

   30. CWChris Williamson3:48

       (laughs)
2. 4:00 – 11:21

   The Cancellation of JK Rowling

   1. CWChris Williamson4:00

      this year?

   2. DMDouglas Murray4:02

      Oh, wow. Well, um, who ever thought that the creator of Harry Potter would become Goebbels?

   3. CWChris Williamson4:10

      (laughs)

   4. DMDouglas Murray4:10

      Uh, I mean, the most unforgivable, canceled person. It's extraordinary. I never thought that the Harry Potter or... I mean, I never thought that the people who were great fans of JK Rowling would, would turn on her this much. The only thing I, I've ever seen that really, that I can think of that it reminds me of was I once saw some footage from Trafalgar Square of some young girls who had stayed out all night waiting for Leonardo DiCaprio to come for the premier of a movie, and it was raining and he didn't stay very long to greet them because it was raining. And I remember this footage of them saying, "I hate him!" And they'd turned from so devoted, so devoted-

   5. CWChris Williamson5:00

      (laughs)

   6. DMDouglas Murray5:00

      ... they had camped out and arranged their lives around the possibility of a glimpse, and got to, "I hate him. He's the nastiest man in the world," in no time.

   7. CWChris Williamson5:11

      (laughs)

   8. DMDouglas Murray5:11

      And that seems to be what's happening with JK Rowling. Um, now, of course, not with all her fans. I don't wanna, I don't wanna overemphasize it, but you know, there is a portion of people who believe that the Harry Potter woman who they relied on all the time when they were growing up and who gave them all this, you know, great time, uh, has become a Nazi when they weren't looking. And I, I don't... I should stress, I don't think she has. Uh, but there's a lot to learn, firstly in the dementing tones of the time. Second, in the way in which public figures can just be made, versions of them that have no resemblance to what they are become, you know, uh, they're played out there in the public sphere. And then you get the very interesting other lessons. I, I don't like this term cancel culture. I think it's sort of, uh, it's already stale and it's not quite accurate because, you know, JK Rowling hasn't been canceled.... like that. You know, there's a bunch of very insane people who think that the Ickabog is too difficult for them to cope with in this life. And by the way, I mean, uh, because th- that, that was the attempt, the wa- the attempted walkout at, uh, at her publishers, Hachette, was, was not, uh, because they didn't... The, the, the, the I think 150 or so people, mainly young, at Hachette who said they couldn't work, uh, o- on the latest JK Rowling book and w- didn't want to be in the same places, they weren't publishing JK Rowling's Big Book of Trans.

   9. CWChris Williamson6:47

      (laughs)

   10. DMDouglas Murray6:47

       It wasn't Chicks With Dicks by JK Rowling.

   11. CWChris Williamson6:52

       (laughs) Dumbledore and Harry have an X-rated adventure, it wasn't that?

   12. DMDouglas Murray6:55

       No, it wasn't that. It was a new children's book to be called the Ickabog. And if you are an adult in the world and you can't be in the proximity of a children's book called the Ickabog, it's possible this world isn't gonna be able to be arranged around you anymore. You know, it's, it's... That's, that's, that's a bad place to be. And so JK Rowling's story has lots of things to tell us, but one of them is what can be done by one person, just one person? Second thing is we are learning lessons about who can be canceled and who cannot. And the fact that clearly it matters that she makes money and that she has money. Now, that's not all a good f- sign because it means that those of us who aren't multi-zillionaires are still vulnerable. And I wouldn't like to be in a position where only the very rich can survive attempted cancellation. Um, but it shows that one person with a voice and with some guts, she certainly has that, can say, "Look, I'm not persecuting anyone. I'm just telling you I'm not going along with the following crazy thing you made up yesterday." And I admire her for doing that. You know, she had no... She didn't have to get into any of this. She could quite easily have, you know, continued buying, you know, Ha- Harry Potter castle-sized houses and living very happily. You know, most people, most people would be very happy to have a quiet life and, um, and enjoy their, their, their, their, (laughs) their loot. Uh, uh, but she, uh, she, she's done this. And, and I have all, all respect for her for doing so.

   13. CWChris Williamson8:37

       It's the sort of thing her legacy, in whatever form that will be, I'm sure that she is going to be remembered, you know, Harry Potter is one of the most popular children's series ever.

   14. DMDouglas Murray8:47

       Yeah. Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson8:48

       And, and, and really sort of was a pivot as well with regards to, um, children's literature, I think, that was adult-friendly as well. You know, like you had kids... They even did special adult, um, cover versions-

   16. DMDouglas Murray8:59

       Yes. I know there was a kind of-

   17. CWChris Williamson9:00

       ... so that adults were less, less embarrassed reading to kids.

   18. DMDouglas Murray9:02

       Yeah. I thought very poorly of the adult. I read the children's editions.

   19. CWChris Williamson9:05

       Damn right.

   20. DMDouglas Murray9:05

       I thought very poorly of the adults who, who thought they were fooling everyone by reading them.

   21. CWChris Williamson9:10

       (laughs) It's still Harry Potter, mate. Yeah. Um, but yeah, and you're right, she could have just quietly allowed that legacy to roll forward without doing anything to potentially upset the balance, but she decided not to.

   22. DMDouglas Murray9:21

       Yeah. Yeah. And I, I, I just think that we need to reflect more on when things go well. You know, you hear an awful lot about, you know, when things are going badly. This has gone very well. You know, um, there was a fear around the time of the JK Rowling thing that maybe even making money for a company didn't protect you. You know, there... Look at Netflix. Netflix has been willing to, to take financial hits in order to do worse programs so long as they're in the right political realm. Um, eh, e- I worried in the publishing industry that that would be the case with JK Rowling, but, but, but fortunately not. Um, eh, fortunately it's still, you know, success still speaks. And I'm, I'm delighted by the people, by the way, I don't want to be snotty about this, but some of the people who resigned... There were some people who resigned from her literary agency because her, the literary agent was now representing an anti-trans person. And I just... It was one of the funniest reads of the year, reading the authors who'd resigned from JK Rowling's literary agency. I, I can tell you her literary agent isn't any poorer.

   23. CWChris Williamson10:31

       (laughs)

   24. DMDouglas Murray10:32

       I'll just, I'll put it at his most diplomatic...

   25. CWChris Williamson10:34

       The literary agents praying to their gods, thanking them that they've finally rid themselves of some non-selling authors.

   26. DMDouglas Murray10:40

       Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. So, um, so no, but it's been a, but it's been a very, it's been a very good thing because I think we might have spoken about this when we last spoke, but, you know, I, I've always said that, uh, cowardice is catching. And when a society sort of, you know, encourages people to be sort of cowardly and meek and shut up and all that sort of thing, and if the public figures all do that, then other people do it. But the reverse is also true. And if, you know, mainstream and totally responsible and respected figures like JK Rowling, uh, do, do this and fantastic. More, more, more men and women will say what they think and they won't go along with stuff just because they're told they have to, particularly when it's mad stuff that was just made up yesterday.

3. 11:21 – 21:04

   Why We Shouldn’t Focus on Cancel Culture

   1. DMDouglas Murray11:21

   2. CWChris Williamson11:21

      So you've said cancel culture is a term that you're not super happy with. What is the cancellation sphere that's, that's out there in the world at the moment?

   3. DMDouglas Murray11:33

      Well, the, the clear one that does exist is the attempt to find people whose employment is vulnerable to mob stampeding. So, you know, somebody says something on Twitter, for instance, uh, in support of, uh, somebody that Twitter doesn't like, and they, Twitter then finds where they work and, uh, you know, lobbies their boss until they're sacked, sort of thing. That, that's, that's, that's the aim. And there's lots of sort of versions of that. Um, lobby a company, uh, pretend that, you know, the company is going to lose masses of money because it just destroyed its market, you know, uh, capability because everyone's unhappy with it. Uh, um, that stuff does go on.... um-

   4. CWChris Williamson12:19

      But you're not happy with that being called cancel culture.

   5. DMDouglas Murray12:22

      Well, no, no, no. Uh, uh, it's not that. I, what I'm, what I'm worried about is that we get stuck on it, um, because I believe it's much more important to focus on what is winning and what winning looks like. And, you know, there is a certain, you notice this in American journalism a bit more than you do here, there is a bit of, "Oh, I was so nearly canceled. Oh, I was canceled." There's a sort of certain, uh, you know, you al- you always have it in writing, 'cause writers are a very self-obsessed bunch and, and tend to think of themselves as being brave. I mean, you know, Mark Steiner made a famous quip years ago, you know, like, uh, "Writers are forever giving each other awards for bravery." And you know, you don't-

   6. CWChris Williamson13:05

      (laughs)

   7. DMDouglas Murray13:05

      All of the professions where they're, you know, like, you've got to run into burning buildings and save people, and it's like they don't spend all their time talking about bravery awards, you know? But, but writers are very big on bravery, and writers like, quite a lot of writers like the idea that they're sort of, ooh, you know, edgy and, and, and all that sort of thing, and so, so the idea of being canceled is a little bit, you know, for them. I don't really care about that stuff. I, I care about people saying what they think, and I'm really, I really think that people should not pay so much attention to a re- a very, very rarefied and demented minority of people, and I don't think we should give these people the right to dictate the cultural weather in any way. In any way. Uh, why should a small, demented group of people who believe that the big bearded man with a penis is a woman if he says he is, that they should dictate the cultural weather across the country and make major authors have to fear for their careers and make all politicians become gibbering wrecks when the subject comes up? Why should that be the case? Why can't we just have discussions out in a reasonable fashion and, you know, advance your case to the best of your capability? But you don't do that. I think we've given in issue after issue very deranged minorities, minorities of minorities, the right to basically dictate the weather. And, and we don't need to, because on any estimation, on any estimation, you know, most of those people are not doing that well. You know, the authors who were the anti-Rowling people are not doing as well as her, so why not, you know, why not say actually the person... The point is, about this is, is to say the person in your life you should want to be is JK Rowling, not just 'cause you should want to be rich, but because you should want to be in a position in your life where you can tell the truth. That should be the position you aim for. And I'm worried that all of this sort of actually encourages people to say, "The position I would like to sort of hold in my life will be the one where nobody notices me and nobody comes for me and I sort of get away with it and then die."

   8. CWChris Williamson15:12

      How vanilla can I spend the remainder of my life?

   9. DMDouglas Murray15:15

      Right.

   10. CWChris Williamson15:15

       I'd like to be som- somewhere in between the color eggplant and beige.

   11. DMDouglas Murray15:19

       Absolutely. On the, on the great color chart of humanity-

   12. CWChris Williamson15:23

       (laughs)

   13. DMDouglas Murray15:23

       ... human experience. And, and that's, but that's what, that's what, that's what they're doing, and I, I just, I think we should encourage people not, not to play that game. Not, not-

   14. CWChris Williamson15:32

       It's hard though, right? You've, you've hit on something there that people like yourself or Sam Harris or JK Rowling, by virtue of, uh, success or financial backing or a, a level of independence with regards to your platform or whatever it might be-

   15. DMDouglas Murray15:46

       Mm-hmm.

   16. CWChris Williamson15:46

       ... have taken great, gone to great lengths, uh, to make yourself uncancelable.

   17. DMDouglas Murray15:51

       Mm.

   18. CWChris Williamson15:52

       But not everyone has that luxury.

   19. DMDouglas Murray15:54

       Sure. No, no, I don't, I don't underestimate it at all. Um, just my experience in life is that I've always said what I think, and, uh, it's worked well.

   20. CWChris Williamson16:03

       It's not a new... That's, that's the thing, I said before-

   21. DMDouglas Murray16:05

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CWChris Williamson16:05

       ... our first podcast, like, how do we get through all of these topics without stepping on a landmine? And you increasingly just sort of do a, a ballerina dance through this landmine-

   23. DMDouglas Murray16:15

       Yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson16:16

       ... back and forth every single day.

   25. DMDouglas Murray16:17

       I, I like to think it's slightly more butch than that, but, but I agree. It's something like, it's somewhere in that-

   26. CWChris Williamson16:21

       Yes. Yeah, yeah, okay.

   27. DMDouglas Murray16:22

       ... Nureyev, Nureyev-like leaps around, but-

   28. CWChris Williamson16:24

       Yeah. Cool.

   29. DMDouglas Murray16:25

       ... that, that's what you're, that, that was the, the image-

   30. CWChris Williamson16:26

       Sorry.
4. 21:04 – 30:43

   Hastening Change by Looting

   1. CWChris Williamson21:04

      What are your thoughts on looting as a method of hastening change?

   2. DMDouglas Murray21:09

      I'm mainly against it. Um-

   3. CWChris Williamson21:12

      Are you ever for it?

   4. DMDouglas Murray21:14

      No. Not that I can think of. Uh, you're referring, I assume, among other things, to the book that's just been published in America, In Defense of Looting.

   5. CWChris Williamson21:21

      2016, that came out, you know.

   6. DMDouglas Murray21:23

      Did it really? Gosh, that was a prophetic book.

   7. CWChris Williamson21:25

      Which is really, really interesting.

   8. DMDouglas Murray21:27

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson21:27

      So I'll, I, the-

   10. DMDouglas Murray21:29

       It's had its moment now, that book, hasn't it?

   11. CWChris Williamson21:31

       F- she is so much more insightful than you. Her ability to see what's going on in the future is that much greater than yours.

   12. DMDouglas Murray21:37

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson21:37

       Um, so Vicky Osterweil, for anyone who doesn't know what it is, I've got a little, a little breakdown here, and then I'll, I'll get your opinions on it. Um, so NPR summarizes the book as an argument that, "Looting is a powerful tool to bring about real, lasting change in society." Osterweil's argument is simple, the so-called United States was founded in "cis-hetero patriarchal racial capitalist violence." That violence produced our current system, particularly its property relations, and looting is a remedy for that sickness. Looting rejects the legitimacy of ownership rights and property, the moral injunction to work for a living in the justice of law and order. Ownership of things, not just people, is innately structurally white supremacist. Looting is good, she says, because it exposes a deep truth about the great American confidence game, which is that without, "Without police and without state oppression, we can have things for free." She came to this conclusion-

   14. DMDouglas Murray22:31

       (laughs)

   15. CWChris Williamson22:31

       ... six years ago in her book, which is written in love and solidarity with looters the world over.

   16. DMDouglas Murray22:39

       Well, the, uh, obvious question is where does she live?

   17. CWChris Williamson22:44

       (laughs)

   18. DMDouglas Murray22:45

       Only thing you need to know.

   19. CWChris Williamson22:46

       Do you know that at the front of the book, they have the classic, um, this is copyrighted by whatever publishing-

   20. DMDouglas Murray22:56

       Yes, I know, I know because a colleague of mine at The Spectator wrote her publishers the other day saying, "We are publishing our own edition of this."

   21. CWChris Williamson23:04

       (laughs)

   22. DMDouglas Murray23:05

       Uh, and-

   23. CWChris Williamson23:05

       Looting her book.

   24. DMDouglas Murray23:06

       We're just looting her book. And, uh, the publishers didn't seem to be up for that. You'd be amazed to hear. But I mean, I just said, "Look, if you see it in a bookshop, take it. It's yours, all property's theft. Why not?" Turns out actually nobody wants to steal her book, certainly not if it's filled with stuff like you just read. Um, uh, uh, these people, I mean, they're so reprehensible on so many levels. I mean, first of all, by the way, um, how ignorant can somebody be? I mean, how ignorant do you have to be to make that claim about the foundation of American society? And I suspect like a number of authors of the American far left, she's never been anywhere else in the world in her life. I sus- strongly suspect that. Um, if, if she can send me photos of herself in Sub-Saharan Africa, North Africa, across a lot of the Middle East and the Far East and things, I, I could be persuaded. But I would suspect that she's been brought up in America, hasn't traveled very much further, and has simply been indoctrinated in this now completely boring and predictable way where all you need to do is throw out this same word salad about heteronormativity and, uh, and, and indigenous people and all this sort of thing. And before you know it, you've got a not very well selling book that you can't even get stolen.

   25. CWChris Williamson24:19

       (laughs)

   26. DMDouglas Murray24:19

       But the, the (laughs) the, the, the-

   27. CWChris Williamson24:23

       That's like, uh, do you remember the Sargon of Akkad thing that you got really, really in trouble for?

   28. DMDouglas Murray24:27

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson24:27

       ... where he said, "I wouldn't even rape you." That was his thing to the politician. I can't remember the lady's name. And that was what got him in trouble. This is a book so bad you wouldn't even steal it. Is that sort of-

   30. DMDouglas Murray24:36

       It can't be stolen. It can't be stolen. I, I mean, if anyone can show me an example of it being stolen, but y- yeah. Um, it's, it's also, I mean, it's, it's, it's amazing we're in this era and that people are, are talking and thinking like this. I, I simply think it's, she is a product of, um, uh, capitalism at this particular stage where, um, she doesn't know very much. She hasn't been very far in the world. She's not been educated well. She's not seen anything of the world. She doesn't know anything about life. She doesn't know how life is normally run. And all of that is playing out on the streets of various American cities at the moment, primarily Portland, Oregon. Uh, but there are a lot of people in this strange position. I, I have a lot of friends in America who tell me that this is very common, this sort of thing, among their children and grandchildren. They say that they, they, they genuinely think, like this, uh, woman, that, uh, that their country is uniquely bad and these people just don't know anything. They just don't know anything. They don't know anything about history, they don't know anything about geography, they don't know anything about the world. And I'm, I, I'm very uninterested in the thoughts of these intensely parochial so-called internationalists, uh, because that's what they are. I mean, they just, they have never seen the consequences of their own thought. They, they... The idea that you take away the police and everything will be, was it free, I think she said? Yeah. Yeah. Well, y- you also will get a massive upsurge in rape, murder.
5. 30:43 – 50:15

   What the Silent Majority Need to Speak Up About

   1. DMDouglas Murray30:43

   2. CWChris Williamson30:43

      What does "the silent majority need to stop being silent" mean?

   3. DMDouglas Murray30:48

      Yes. This is something I'm very keen people take into account. I'm fed up of hearing about the silent majority. Um, I've heard about it all my life. I'm sure you have. People say, "Well, the silent majority don't believe that." I've always said, "But why are they silent? What's the problem? And if they're a majority, even more so."

   4. CWChris Williamson31:05

      (laughs)

   5. DMDouglas Murray31:05

      What... That's... I- i- it makes no sense to me. Um, y- y- the, the thing that we've been told in recent years is the silent majority only stops being silent at elections when it silently votes in ways that surprise the rest of the country. The obvious-

   6. CWChris Williamson31:24

      Which it, which it seems is, is kind of, kind of true, right?

   7. DMDouglas Murray31:27

      Yeah. The obvious example is, um, uh, Brexit vote in 2016 and the Trump vote in 2016. And, uh, uh, uh, then they say, "Well, now we've heard from the silent majority." And then that silent majority is said to be totally, you know, deplorable and, uh, um, and they should be, you know, somehow expunged in the democratic process because it doesn't know what it's doing, says the losing minority. Um, but, uh, yeah, I don't understand why it should be the case that people only make themselves heard at the ballot box once every four years or something like that. Um, so what I think is happening is, is back to where we started actually, is that a very small number of very voluble people are making all of the weather. Uh, and I don't see why they should, and the only reason they d- they do is because they manage to intimidate the majority into going along with things that we don't have to go along with. I just... I refuse, and I think everyone else should, to go along with any more of the crap. I strongly urge people to stop going along with the crap now. What does that mean? It means, for instance, if you work in a company and you are told that you're going to have a day where you've all got to think about racism, you either say no or you say, "What is it you're trying to make us learn and what are you trying to make us conclude? And are you right in that?" So I published, uh, a little while ago a letter I'd been leaked from the NHS Trust where this NHS Trust chief in Birmingham told everyone working for her what books to read, and I think that the people working for her and with her should not just laugh at her or say, "Oh my gosh, I didn't realize how racist I am in the NHS Trust in Birmingham. I had no idea that the NHS Trust in Birmingham was a place where the Fourth Reich was going to reemerge. Oh, we must stop it." They don't just do that. They say, "No. No. We're not going to spend the rest of our lives being told what to read, and told what to think, and told what to say, and told how to dance, and everything else. No. We're not gonna do it." And if ev- if the so-called silent majority did that, then we would be so much further forward as a society. And what's more, we can do it in a perfectly reasonable way. I, I've had the experience a lot in recent weeks, I'm sure you have, of wanting to have conversations about... You know, uh, the, by the way, you're always told, "Oh, we just want to have the conversation about it." No, you don't. You want to lecture people. But I'd be very happy to have conversations about colonialism and slavery and racism and the existence of racism throughout history across all races and all that. I'm very happy to have all those conversations. But actually, the people who say they want those conversations don't want the conversations. They just want to win. They just want-

   8. CWChris Williamson34:29

      What they want is to wear a unitard spandex khaki-colored sort of one-piece thing-

   9. DMDouglas Murray34:38

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CWChris Williamson34:38

       ... and tell you that you're racist and put their PayPal address up on the board. That's what they want to do.

   11. DMDouglas Murray34:41

       Yeah, yeah, yeah. They want to be the Kim Jong Un of anti-racism-

   12. CWChris Williamson34:45

       (laughs)

   13. DMDouglas Murray34:46

       ... and, um, to tell everyone, uh, um, what to believe. And, uh, I don't think that's, uh, uh... I'm, I'm not going along with that-

   14. CWChris Williamson34:56

       So I-

   15. DMDouglas Murray34:56

       ... and I don't think other people should either.

   16. CWChris Williamson34:58

       I got a small confession to make, both to yourself and to the audience. I've been holding onto this story since we got to s- speak. So I had, uh, Carl Benjamin, Sargon of Akkad, on the show a few months ago, uh, and it was slap bang as Chaz was happening. So we're talking peak race tensions, right? And I've spoken to Carl before. We get on really well. Episodes are great. But for some reason, I had this ambient anxiety throughout the day leading up to it, and I started talking to him and I was really nervous. I don't usually get nervous, especially when speaking to guests for a second time. So it's just a fre... "Oh, how are you? How's this, that, and the other?"

   17. DMDouglas Murray35:36

       Sure.

   18. CWChris Williamson35:37

       And, um, I found myself being super, super... Uh, it felt like I was treading on eggshells as I'm talking to him. And then upon listening back, even some of the things that I said I didn't agree with, I didn't agree with myself. And what I found-

   19. DMDouglas Murray35:49

       What sort of things? Yeah, so... No, go on.

   20. CWChris Williamson35:51

       For, for instance, um, we were talking about should the Fawlty Towers episode be taken down, what's happening with Little Britain. Variety released a, uh, list of 10 problematic movies which need warnings and a discussion before-

   21. DMDouglas Murray36:02

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CWChris Williamson36:02

       ... and after watching. And I put this stuff forward to Carl and he gave his thoughts. And I just... After that was done, I, I said... I pushed the rhetoric of my compassion too far. I was saying basically, "I don't think that anyone should be offended," which isn't true because in order to communicate, you have to risk being offensive. That's the way it works.

   23. DMDouglas Murray36:20

       Sure.

   24. CWChris Williamson36:20

       Another Jordan Petersonism. So anyway, what, what I found was that I had somehow managed to... And the listeners may be able to, uh, f- sense this within their own lives. I'd become so...... ignorant to where the goalposts were that I wasn't, I didn't even know what sport I was playing anymore. And I feel like this is the end goal-

   25. DMDouglas Murray36:41

       (laughs) Hmm.

   26. CWChris Williamson36:42

       ... which a lot of the, um, smarter people who are using, uh, just- justice movements to further a particular agenda are hoping to achieve.

   27. DMDouglas Murray36:54

       Yes.

   28. CWChris Williamson36:54

       To move the goalposts so fast that you don't know what's right, what's wrong-

   29. DMDouglas Murray36:58

       Well-

   30. CWChris Williamson36:58

       ... what's anything else. And I was super nervous and that-
6. 50:15 – 1:02:07

   Woke-fishing & Modern Dating

   1. CWChris Williamson50:15

      Have you heard of woke fishing?

   2. DMDouglas Murray50:19

      No, I don't think I have.

   3. CWChris Williamson50:21

      You are going to love this. The New York Post, uh, sums it up as the woke fish dating trend, shady men are pretending to be progressive on apps-

   4. DMDouglas Murray50:32

      Oh, dear.

   5. CWChris Williamson50:32

      ... in an effort to bed progressive girls. According to writer Serena Smith, "Woke fishermen are masquerading as progressive in order to get laid," similar to the phenomenon of catfishing where there is, uh, people post fake dating profile photos. Um, and there's a quote here from Reddit of a particular successful woke fisherman who said-

   6. DMDouglas Murray50:53

      (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson50:53

      ... "It worked. I went to an anti-Trump rally, started screaming 'Fuck Trump,' and a bunch of people joined in. I kept doing it all night until some girl, some cute girl entered our group, and then we hooked up later that night."

   8. DMDouglas Murray51:07

      Uh, he is, um ... This is what I call cuttlefishing, of course.

   9. CWChris Williamson51:11

      I think this is different. I think that this is doing it from a much more troll- trolley sort of ... I, I think he's purposefully doing it to say, "Right, this is just a tool that I can use."

   10. DMDouglas Murray51:23

       Right.

   11. CWChris Williamson51:23

       As opposed to someone who genuinely believes it. I think the-

   12. DMDouglas Murray51:26

       No, no, no, no, but I always said the cuttlefish didn't believe it.

   13. CWChris Williamson51:29

       You don't think?

   14. DMDouglas Murray51:29

       No, no, no, no.

   15. CWChris Williamson51:30

       I think that some of the guys are, are so self-deceptive that they genuinely believe that that's what they're doing, it's just their method of getting themselves in, that-

   16. DMDouglas Murray51:36

       One of my... No. One of my, one of my favorite conversations that I've had regularly in the years since Madness of Crowds came out was with young heterosexual men who I described the cuttlefish maneuver to, and they burst out laughing.

   17. CWChris Williamson51:48

       'Cause that was their dating strategy of choice.

   18. DMDouglas Murray51:49

       Yeah, of course, 'cause the, the, it's the laughter of self-recognition.

   19. CWChris Williamson51:52

       (laughs)

   20. DMDouglas Murray51:53

       Um, I, it's happened so many times in the last year. And, um, y- y- uh, I do think it's cynical. Uh, I think woke fishing is obviously just, uh, uh, an extension of this. I like the, I like this idea of the woke fisherman, like with his, with his gnarled hands, from his time-

   21. CWChris Williamson52:13

       (laughs) With a big beard and one of those little hats on top.

   22. DMDouglas Murray52:15

       ... from his time-

   23. CWChris Williamson52:15

       Smoking a pipe.

   24. DMDouglas Murray52:16

       ... at the woke sea.

   25. CWChris Williamson52:18

       (laughs)

   26. DMDouglas Murray52:18

       Um, uh, but, well, these people deserve each other. Um, and of course, it's all a consequence, again, of us not having the conversations we should have been able to have. Um, y- y- i- if we, if we had reasonable conversations about men and women and relations between the sexes instead of allowing the craziest and most deranged and unhappy people to dictate all of the weather, then you wouldn't be able to have the situation where one person knowing they're being a liar attracts another person who they have contempt for.

   27. CWChris Williamson52:54

       (laughs) Well, I mean-

   28. DMDouglas Murray52:56

       Which seems to me to be a suboptimal start to a relationship.

   29. CWChris Williamson52:59

       Perhaps. Um, also, if the difference between you sleeping with someone and not sleeping with someone is whether or not they shout, "Fuck Trump," I think-

   30. DMDouglas Murray53:09

       Oh, yes. Yes, yes, yes.
7. 1:02:07 – 1:12:01

   Are We Wasting Brainpower on Woke Debates?

   1. DMDouglas Murray1:02:07

      being told to imbibe.

   2. CWChris Williamson1:02:08

      You said on the trigonometry episode I watched, that we're standing on the precipice. And it's interesting that you use that word because I've been thinking about this for quite a while. Toby Ord, who is from the Future of Humanities Institute at Oxford, um, he wrote a book called The Precipice.

   3. DMDouglas Murray1:02:22

      Hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:02:23

      And it's all about existential threat. Wonderful.

   5. DMDouglas Murray1:02:25

      Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yes, yes, yes. I've, I've, I've heard him. Yes, yes.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:02:27

      Wonderful. Australian dude.

   7. DMDouglas Murray1:02:29

      Yep, I know him.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:02:29

      Uh, also big into the, um, effective altruism movement. Fantastic-

   9. DMDouglas Murray1:02:33

      Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I read him on altruism. That's right.

   10. CWChris Williamson1:02:35

       Huge, uh, big-picture thinking.

   11. DMDouglas Murray1:02:37

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson1:02:38

       Um, and he called his book The Precipice.

   13. DMDouglas Murray1:02:40

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson1:02:40

       And he gives humanity's chances of surviving the next century one in three. He gives humanity's chances of reaching our full potential as a civilization, space-faring, colonize the galaxy, uh, one in two.

   15. DMDouglas Murray1:02:59

       Mm-hmm.

   16. CWChris Williamson1:02:59

       So the vast majority of our risk as a species is front-loaded within the next century.

   17. DMDouglas Murray1:03:05

       Yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson1:03:05

       My concern is that smart people like you, like Gad Saad, like Sam Harris are using up brain power on things that are self-defeating.

   19. DMDouglas Murray1:03:19

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   20. CWChris Williamson1:03:19

       There's a, a concept by Robin Hanson called the Great Filter, which explains the Fermi paradox, why are there not aliens out there. He suggests that there is a particular section that we need to get past. And-

   21. DMDouglas Murray1:03:32

       Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson1:03:32

       ... given that some of the smartest minds of the last few years have spent an inordinate amount of time trying to work out whether men are women or not-

   23. DMDouglas Murray1:03:40

       Hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson1:03:40

       ... to me, feels like that could be the-

   25. DMDouglas Murray1:03:44

       (clears throat)

   26. CWChris Williamson1:03:44

       Y- if that's the reason-

   27. DMDouglas Murray1:03:46

       Mm-hmm.

   28. CWChris Williamson1:03:46

       ... that as a species, we don't reach our full potential-

   29. DMDouglas Murray1:03:49

       Yes.

   30. CWChris Williamson1:03:49

       ... because we decided to have these stupid tribal, uh, uh, uh, like, childish, completely-
8. 1:12:01 – 1:16:57

   Douglas’ Gym Routine

   1. DMDouglas Murray1:12:02

      (laughs) Not something I talk about very much.

   2. CWChris Williamson1:12:05

      (laughs)

   3. DMDouglas Murray1:12:06

      Um, the simple reason is I- I've s- I've stopped wearing suits partly because I thought if it was gonna be the end of the world, I didn't have to put on a tie.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:12:13

      (laughs)

   5. DMDouglas Murray1:12:13

      And, (laughs) um, and, um, but I, I, I've alwa- I've worked out all... well, quite a long time, 15 years, 20 years or so. Uh, for me, it's, it's, um, it's like the mo- most important point of the day when I turn my mind off. Uh, I think it's very, very good for people for that, uh, people like me who basically work all the time. It, it... Well, not work all the time, think all the time. You know, when I'm not writing, I'm reading and, and, and, and, and, you know, uh, and that's great, but I actually do need a time to turn off. And so for me, the gym has always been that. Um, and, uh, well, I mean, I don't know if I can tell you my exact routine. I, I haven't train-

   6. CWChris Williamson1:12:55

      Well, I mean, is it a chest... Is it a push-pull legs split? What, are you, are you in five days a week?... the people I know.

   7. DMDouglas Murray1:13:01

      Uh, yeah, normally four or five days a week, uh, w- three at the absolute worst. Lockdown was tricky as it was for a lot of people because however many of those band things you get, they never (laughs) quite approximate the weight. Um, and, um, and I'm also, I'm very anti-running in public.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:13:23

      Okay.

   9. DMDouglas Murray1:13:24

      I'm very-

   10. CWChris Williamson1:13:25

       Is- is there a-

   11. DMDouglas Murray1:13:25

       I'm very, very ... I, I ... It's not just I don't like to do it myself, I don't like seeing people coming towards me on the pavement gibbering and sweating and dribbling. Uh, s- (laughs) so, so for me, exercise has to be in the gym. Uh, it has to be confined to that place.

   12. CWChris Williamson1:13:41

       But I think whatever you did-

   13. DMDouglas Murray1:13:42

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson1:13:42

       ... over the, the, that 18-month period, there was... I can't remember where the photo was that went sort of semi, semi-sort of viral online. Um-

   15. DMDouglas Murray1:13:50

       I was... Weirdly, I know exactly what you're talking about because it was when I discovered-

   16. CWChris Williamson1:13:52

       It's from behind. It's a lot ... There's a lot of tricep in it. And, and you got a little bit of a beard.

   17. DMDouglas Murray1:13:56

       It was, it was when the ... It was when I, um, discovered what a thirst pic was, which was not something I'd ever encountered before. People said to me, "You've posted a thirst pic." And I said, "What's that?" Eh, and, uh, yes, I know exactly when it was. I was in Mexico and I happened to be in the study that Trotsky was assassinated in, which is not the obvious place to- (laughs)

   18. CWChris Williamson1:14:15

       (laughs)

   19. DMDouglas Murray1:14:16

       If you-

   20. CWChris Williamson1:14:16

       To post a thirst trap picture in Trotsky's-

   21. DMDouglas Murray1:14:18

       If you were, if you were deliberately posting a thirst pic, you probably wouldn't choose an assassination site.

   22. CWChris Williamson1:14:23

       (laughs)

   23. DMDouglas Murray1:14:24

       Um, anyhow, it was very kind of and flattering of people. And, um, I'm deeply grateful. And obviously, the next book will be a Davina McCall-like workout with Douglas.

   24. CWChris Williamson1:14:36

       I want a home DVD, booty-

   25. DMDouglas Murray1:14:39

       And-

   26. CWChris Williamson1:14:39

       ... bo- bums and tums with Douglas Murray.

   27. DMDouglas Murray1:14:42

       No.

   28. CWChris Williamson1:14:42

       And comment below, comment below if you'd buy it, and maybe we'll get that. Oh, this is the final thing. I lied to you. Um, you said if you hit the bestseller list that you might consider reading the lyrics to WAP. Is-

   29. DMDouglas Murray1:14:54

       Yeah.

   30. CWChris Williamson1:14:54

       Can w- i- Do we think that might happen?

Episode duration: 1:16:57