Modern WisdomUncertain About Your Relationship? You Need This… - Matthew Hussey (4K)
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
95 min read · 19,090 words- 0:00 – 12:23
How Do You Know When It’s Over?
- CWChris Williamson
Valentine's Day is coming up, and whether you want to more deeply connect with your partner or work out whether or not you should break up, I've got the fix for you. I have put together a list of 50 of the most viral and science-backed ways to connect with your partner more deeply, and 25 questions that will help you work out whether or not you should break up. And they're all available right now at the Modern Wisdom Valentine's Review, and it's completely free. You can get it by going to chriswillx.com/valentines. That's chriswillx.com/valentines. One of the most common issues that I'm seeing online at the moment, and people talk about a lot, is working out when to end things.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
How do you come to think about advising people on knowing when to leave a relationship?
- MHMatthew Hussey
[exhaling] Oh, man. I, I coached-- I, there's someone I was coaching recently who had given me all sorts of reasons why they should already be gone. And I, I sat in front of her, and I was-- she was like: "What do you think I should do?" Like, and I was like: "You've already given me so many reasons why you shouldn't be there-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- MHMatthew Hussey
-but I can't make you leave." Like, I sometimes think of... I think this is a-- I, I don't love this metaphor because I believe in renewal and sort of rebirth, but I sometimes think it helps to think of things like a cliff edge. And at a certain point, you kind of go over the cliff edge, and then you're in free fall, and there's, like, a lot of damage that gets done. Or maybe the cliff edge is, you know, your life blows up financially because you put off doing something sooner. Or maybe the cliff edge is that, you know, there's a certain amount of time that's passed that you can never get back. But-
- CWChris Williamson
[clears throat]
- MHMatthew Hussey
... that idea of going off the cliff edge is, in some ways, has been important to me because I see part of what I do as, can I get someone to act now? Can I almost even create a fake cliff edge now-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm
- MHMatthew Hussey
... that stops them from getting to the real cliff edge, where there's gonna be so much time passed that they're now gonna have deep regret about having spent that long with that person?
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Or there's gonna be such chaos in their lives, or they will have lost so many other relationships because of this relationship. And I said to this, to this woman I was coaching, um, "I can't make you leave, and the reality is, the really tough reality is, you might need to experience a lot more pain yet before you leave. I can't say-- I can't determine for you how much pain you need-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm
- MHMatthew Hussey
... in order to leave."
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- MHMatthew Hussey
We all have our threshold, and the scary thing... And I, I'm kind of, in a way, talking about a certain kind of breakup here because there's some truly toxic and dangerous relationships that people get into. And I don't mean just dangerous physically, but just dangerous in the sense that they're with someone that really robs them of their soul, [chuckles] their identity, their, you know, confidence, everything. There was a, a Beth Macy, I think it's Beth Macy, who wrote about the opioid crisis sh- in America. She said the scary thing about opioids is that, you know, the cliché about drugs is that, you know, someone will hit rock bottom, and it's at that point that they'll ricochet back up again. And she said: "No, no, no. With opioids, people hit rock bottom, and then they realize rock bottom has a basement, and that basement has a trapdoor." [laughing]
- CWChris Williamson
[laughing]
- MHMatthew Hussey
There are relationships like that, where you-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh
- MHMatthew Hussey
... you, you think someone, "Oh, this is the point where they leave," and it's like, "No, no, no, something even worse has to happen yet, and something even worse has to happen." So there's no one answer, but, um, at a certain point, I think that we have to hit a kind of pain threshold, where we say, "Is this really... Can I endure this for the rest of my life? Do I deserve to endure this for the rest of my life?"
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- MHMatthew Hussey
And the, and one trap we have to be very careful of is the-- Someone asked me a question in my membership the other day. "Do, do," uh... What, what, what did she say exactly? She said, "W- what if what I have right now is, like-
- CWChris Williamson
The best that's available
- MHMatthew Hussey
... the best that I can get? What if better isn't out there?" And I said, "That, you have to be really careful with that logic because you're saying that the only reason to leave is if you believe, from y- this place of fear right now, that you're coming up with this question from, that someone better is coming. But you can't compare it with if you think something better is coming. You have to compare it with the happy that you can be without this person." And there's a thousand different versions of that happy, and not all of them even involve another person. But you, but the, in a way, "Could I do better?" is another trap that will keep you where you are.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- MHMatthew Hussey
'Cause now all I need to do is c- is speak to enough friends who tell me that dating is a war zone-
- CWChris Williamson
Yep
- MHMatthew Hussey
... and it's terrible, and you don't know what it's like out here. You don't want to be back out here again. And you go, "Well, then, then I'll stay," right? That's a trap.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Yeah, it, it's a very, uh, odd situation that there is this threshold of pain. Like, somebody will say, "I knew it was over six months, or two years, or five years, or fifteen years before I left." What does that mean? "I knew it was over, but I didn't leave." Now, it's strange, right? There's two things going on at once. There is whatever this justification, uh, motivation, uh, thing is to push somebody out of the relationship finally, or to build up the bravery, or the resentment, or the bitterness, or the whatever, to be able to say, "This is it."... um, and that sometimes seems to be separate. The motivation to leave seems to be separate to the awareness that this is not right. Is that, is that a fair way to frame it?
- MHMatthew Hussey
I think it's a really important distinction, yeah. I think you can even-- you can have lost hope that it's gonna get better. You really just have to, you know... The activation energy, right? The activation energy of leaving is high. I have to go through heartbreak, loss, uh, untangling my life from somebody else's, explaining it to all of my friends and family, you know, l- letting my community know. Whatever it may be, there's all these ways that I have-- Like, I've got to do a lot, and endure a lot, and pass through a lot i- of pain in order to leave. The activation energy of staying is a lot lower.
- 12:23 – 19:22
Why You Should Stop Waiting to Leave
- CWChris Williamson
made it. Dude, that's so-- yeah, that's so fascinating. I, I've had it in my head. I had Huberman here yesterday, and, uh, I'd love to find out the sort of neurological underpinnings of what's happening during the, "I can fix her, I can fix him," chase, versus the, um, "I have arrived, I am safe, I am secure" chase, which I guess is kind of less like a chase and more like a rest.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
Reason being, there's a lot of that sort of cortisol, dopamine energy-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... going on, of this is a goal, and if I can achieve the goal, I will get a sense of satisfaction. But it's always very rushy. It's always kind of like, like a high and then a low, and there's whiplash, and it feels a little bit sort of chaotic, and ambiguous, and unpredictable, uh, and, and, and uncertain, and that sure, there's-- there are highs, but they're more like victories than they are true rests. And I would love to work out what the sort of neurochemicals that are driving that are... And I would wager that they will be stuffed to do with pursuit, um, and, and risk, and edginess, right? Like, uh, adrenaline, epinephrine, norepinephrine, dopamine, as opposed to, like, oxytocin, serotonin.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, y- y- you are in a, a sympathetic relationship, not a parasympathetic relationship.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Does that make sense?
- MHMatthew Hussey
Yes. Well, and one produces, as you say, the, the rollercoaster, and, and, and it's not just the feeling of achievement, it's, it's relief. You know, like, that's the f- feeling so often is relief. I, I'm, [exhaling] "I have them. I have them." Like, they-- when that person who you're, who you just so want the approval of, and you so want them to want you back the way that you want them, you want them to think about you as much as you think about them, y- when that person says something, like, they send you a text, and they say, "I miss you so much. I just love you so much," out of nowhere-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- MHMatthew Hussey
... [exhaling] you, like, all of a sudden, you're like... It's almost like you- your life was being threatened, and now it's not.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Now you feel like-
- CWChris Williamson
Someone's taken the gun away from you.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Yeah. "Oh, my God, I'm safe. Right now, in this moment, I feel-"
- CWChris Williamson
Briefly.
- MHMatthew Hussey
"... briefly safe." I, I, I-- And that release, that kind of euphoria that results from that, extraordinarily powerful. And that, um, you know, when, when psychologists talk about that trauma bond, there is that variable reward nature to it.
- CWChris Williamson
What is a trauma bond? I, I-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Trauma bond is the idea that, you know, someone, uh, treats you badly again and again and again and again and again, and at a certain point, w- it's so unrewarding that we might even consider, like, enough is enough. But then, right as we're starting to make up our mind about that person, they do something sweet. They do something seemingly kind. They show up for us in some way. They apologise w- when they've, you know, lied or gaslit us or m- made us feel awful about our feelings for the last ten times, but all of a sudden, they show some promise, and then we're dragged back in-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- MHMatthew Hussey
... or sucked back in.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- MHMatthew Hussey
That's the, the trauma bond, and it... People stay in that for years and years and years. That's the really scary part. But there's a variable reward nature to that. That's, in a way, the slot machine, right? If you never won, chances are you wouldn't be there, but you win just enough-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- MHMatthew Hussey
... that it keeps you there. Th- the kind of safety that healthier, more slow-release [chuckles] energy relationships produce is a different kind of feeling, and I... [exhaling] You know, like, I sometimes wa-- When I see, there's, like, certain Instagram content out there you see of people who are like, "You know, I'm just waiting." The, there was one I saw the other day from someone, a, a guy who was like, "I'm just waiting until... You know, I'm not gonna settle. I'm not gonna do this. I'm not gonna do that. I'm waiting until it's magical. I'm waiting, 'cause love is l- you know, I'm not gonna settle for love that isn't magical, for love that isn't this, love that isn't that." And the more he spoke, the more, for me, it didn't feel like the version of love that is... that tends to be enduring, that tends to be-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- MHMatthew Hussey
... genuinely make people happy. It ten- it felt to me like a kind of justification for constantly waiting for that, that feeling. And I think we get, like, in some ways, these arguments get pitted against each other. Like, it's either you find someone that is-
- CWChris Williamson
Bores you
- MHMatthew Hussey
... stable and healthy, and it's kind of boring, and you settled a little bit, but whatever, or you find someone who's exciting, and is passionate, and is magical, and it makes you miserable. [laughing] I don't think it's, uh, necessarily an either/or in those terms, but I do think that in the same way you could do drugs and eat pizza every night and get drunk every night, and that would produce a kind of high, but you're a healthy guy who values the feeling that being healthy gives you. There is something you get from that that's more powerful to you.
- 19:22 – 26:29
Why Chaos Feels Like Chemistry
- CWChris Williamson
There's this interesting link where people confuse chaos for chemistry-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... and, uh, intensity for intimacy, and I think it's just largely like a neurobiological trick. I, I, I, I don't think that there's anything really deeper going on. I think that somebody has not thr- almost all of the situations through any choice of their own, just the way that they present has hooked a particular, uh, like a fish line into this area of your brain, and it keeps on pushing it, and then calm love feels boring at first, and that chasing love that feels safe instead of exciting and not assuming that this person isn't sparky, right? That there's no spark. Uh, I mean, this was a great insight I learned from Jessica Baum's first book, Anxious to, Anxiously Attached. She's got a new one out called Safe. You should bring her on the show.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
She'd be great for you. Um, and she said, uh, uh, s- some people sit down with someone, and they feel a spark, and they assume that that's something special between both of them, but what they don't realize is this person is just sparky with everyone.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Huh.
- CWChris Williamson
That's just who they are.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And you go, "That's brilliant!" And especially on a first date. We had this with, uh, Prime, Logan Paul's drink, uh, for instance. L- allow me to blend two worlds you didn't think I was going to blend today- [laughing]
- MHMatthew Hussey
I'm waiting
- CWChris Williamson
... the beverage industry and, like, intimate connection. Um, Prime optimized for first sip, and we did a ton of taste testing on a lot of different drinks, and there were some drinks that of, uh, they, uh... your, like, tolerance for them over time. Diet Coke is a great version of this. Like, you take your first sip, and it's satisfying, but the real key to Diet Coke and, and-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... all of the, the Coke line is that you can keep drinking it, and you really never get sick of it.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
There are other drinks that you optimize for the first sip. So if Logan Paul's on his podcast and he flicks a bottle of Prime across you, and he goes, "Matthew, taste that," and you take a sip, and you're like, "Wow, that's really... fucking hell, that- there's something going on there." But after you get halfway through the bottle, you're like, "Uh, it might be a little bit... This is getting a little bit sort of sickly." And by the time you finish it, you're like, "I, I don't really want another one of those."
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, they've certainly balanced some of the flavors better than others, but for some of them it's like, "Ooh!" And maybe if you're a twelve, right, like, your [chuckles] palette is slightly different to mine. Um, I think the same thing is true with, uh, partners, that there are some who optimize for the first sip upfront, and you're like, "Oh, this is so- it's thrilling. It's thr- I'm on a rollercoaster!" You're like, "Yeah, like, being on a rollercoaster is cool, until you can't get off."
- MHMatthew Hussey
There are so many ways that we get it wrong with that mind trick that you just talked about.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- MHMatthew Hussey
A- and, and actually, it's the key to getting over it. That's the great part. What... Understanding that it's a kind of trick of the mind is the key to not overvaluing that first feeling you get-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- MHMatthew Hussey
... with someone.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, this is just... Oh, hello, brain. You're doing that thing again.
- MHMatthew Hussey
You're doing a thing.
- CWChris Williamson
As opposed to imbuing some, you know, karmic, existential, transcendent value onto this person.
- MHMatthew Hussey
And, and they're doing a thing that, as you say, it m- might be something that they put out universally-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- MHMatthew Hussey
... that once you realize that, it becomes cheaper.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- MHMatthew Hussey
It do- it no longer has the same weight. I've met guys where I'm like, d- like, I meet a guy, and when we go out or something, I'm like, "This guy's, like... He's so charming."
- 26:29 – 32:08
5 Questions To Ask Yourself About Your Relationship
- CWChris Williamson
Um, so I found on Reddit five questions to ask yourself if you're unsure about your relationship.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
Number one, if someone told you you're a lot like your partner, would this be a compliment to you? Number two, are you truly fulfilled or just less lonely? Number three, are you able to be unapologetically yourself, or do you feel the need to show up differently to please your partner?
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm, that's a good one.
- CWChris Williamson
Number four, are you in love with who your partner is right now as a whole, or are you only in love with their good side, their potential, or the idea of them? And number five, would you want your future or imagined child to date somebody like your partner?
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm. These are good questions. Those are good questions. I think as well, would you... Here, here, I think this is a good one: if you and your partner had a child, and then you died, and your child was gonna be raised by them and only them, with all of their habits, values, behaviors, would, would that worry you, or would you feel like that was a problem, or would you be super happy with it?
- CWChris Williamson
Wow! Yeah, like, uh, are you basically hoping that your future parenting, you're going to act as a gatekeeper or as a-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Right
- CWChris Williamson
... magnifier? It's like, "Oh, well, you know, I'll be there, so I'll be able to protect them from the parent," or, "I'm happy to get the fuck out of the way because they're much better than I am. They're a much better person than I am." There was another one that, uh, I read this year that I thought was so fucking interesting, which was question to ask yourself if you're unsure about your relationship: If you could wake up tomorrow morning and the relationship was over without you having to say it to them, would you feel [chuckles] relief, or would you feel wistfulness?
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm. I always remember having a dream about someone that I was, at the time, really heartbroken over, and it was like the moment I realized something had truly shifted in me that meant I was better. And in-- 'cause in the dream, we got, like, we got back together.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- MHMatthew Hussey
And then within five minutes of getting back together in the dream, the same things that made my life hell [laughing] in the relationship were happening again.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- MHMatthew Hussey
And I suddenly, in the dream, thought, "What have I done? Like, I've made a terrible mistake here. Why did I, why did I go back? Why am I back in this situation?" And I woke up, and I realized the nightmare was ha- was being back. The nightmare wasn't-
- CWChris Williamson
What?
- MHMatthew Hussey
... you know, having, th- you know, been heartbroken. And that, that was a very, it was a very prof- I'm not big on dreams, don't get me wrong, but um, that was a very profound moment for me to realize, like, oh, I'm, I'm finally... Like, my brain has switched. And I-- but I do even remember, even in the midst of the worst heartbreak of my life, I do remember a sense of relief, and I don't, I, I, I don't wanna say for one second I wasn't in the worst pain, 'cause I was in terrible pain, and I was questioning myself. I was questioning my worth. I was, like, in a dark place. But I still remember feeling a sense of relief-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- MHMatthew Hussey
... when I thought, "I don't have to continue to feel the way that I did."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Because I was so anxious. I was like a version of me that I really didn't, n-n-not just didn't like, but that, that I didn't... You know, it, it was a version of me that was, like, the worst possible version of me in many ways.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- MHMatthew Hussey
And I felt this sense of relief that no matter what, even if this is the worst heartbreak ever, I don't have to-... I no longer have to feel that anxiety.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- MHMatthew Hussey
I'm now deeply, deeply heartbroken in its place, but I don't have to feel that anxiety.
- CWChris Williamson
In other news, I've been drinking AG1 every morning for years now. Dude, you tried to fastball me that. That was down the plate, and I've just Shohei Ohtani'd it. I've been drinking AG1 for as long as I can remember. It is the best all-in-one drink that I've ever found, and that's why I'm such a fan of them, and that's why I partnered with them as well. I have got my mom to start taking it, my dad to start taking it, and all of my friends as well, and if I found anything better, I would switch, but I haven't. Why do you keep throwing it at the mic? Stop throwing it at the mic. See? Anyway, uh, over seventy-five vitamins, minerals, and whole food source ingredients. It's got probiotics and prebiotics. It's also NSF certified, meaning that even Olympians can use it, and... In the throat? In the throat! How dare you? Sorry, [chuckles] that was good. I hit the f- I- [laughing] I hit the- Oh! [laughing]
- MHMatthew Hussey
You fucker.
- CWChris Williamson
Ah! Ah. This isn't even an ad read anymore, it's just a war zone. Oh, okay, okay. Anyway, if you too want something to throw at your friends or a tasty, uh, blend of seventy-five vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and whole food sourced ingredients designed to drink first thing in the morning in one scoop, it's here. Go to drinkag1.com/modernwisdom. For stuff. [coughs] Thank you.
- 32:08 – 40:24
How Relationships Can Slowly Erase Who You Are
- CWChris Williamson
Definitely one of the pains I think that people feel, this sort of odd kind of inheritance of a relationship that went on too long when you knew that you should have left, is the sentence, "And the worst thing of all is I lost myself."
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
You know, because the relationship is now over, but there is this weird inheritance that future single you has gotten from the relationship, which is this weird parasite or, or you know, uh, pattern that was a part of that. And unfortunately, because of how long you have tried to fold yourself into a shape to make this person happy, you have left, but the shape that you're in has remained in part. And I think that the knowledge of that, the knowledge that, well, I don't think that I am the person that I was when I got into this relationship anymore, a person who I preferred to the person that I am now, is another motivation for not leaving. Because you say, "Well, I'm not even me," because that's more sunk cost fallacy, that's more loss aversion, right?
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And you go, "Well, when I get out of this, I can't even do the things that I did to get myself into this." So, like, my value, maybe my stock has decreased, but worst of all, my stock has decreased because of something that that person did to me, so I'm gonna get them to redeem me. [laughing]
- MHMatthew Hussey
I always remember... I don't even know, I don't know Jordan Peterson's work very well, but I always remember hearing something or reading something about the lobsters.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah.
- MHMatthew Hussey
And the... What is it? What is it, a defeated lobster sort of gets, gets- it's, like, affected afterwards. I had a- that gave me-
- CWChris Williamson
You're a defeated lobster
- MHMatthew Hussey
... like, this invasive thought that like, the, yeah, this like, what if I am the lobster-
- CWChris Williamson
Yep
- MHMatthew Hussey
... that now is like, you know, there's some I, I, I now walk away as this permanently sort of- [chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
Scarred thing.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Yeah, well-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Little red crustacean.
- CWChris Williamson
The, the, [chuckles] the weird thing is, I think people, people have this fear that leaving is going to make them lonely. But in relationships where most of your time is spent questioning whether or not this is the right relationship, you're already alone. You're already alone in this relationship, and leaving is the first step to stopping that.
- MHMatthew Hussey
A- and, and that will bring on the, the, you know, all of those feelings will come to a kind of crescendo at that point. And, you know, there'll be heartbreak to go through and all of that. And, you know, any, any good coach or therapist, when someone is going through the w- most acute heartbreak, is not gonna start by saying, "Why did you let that go on for so long?" [chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
[laughing]
- MHMatthew Hussey
They're gonna, they're gonna start by-
- CWChris Williamson
Yep
- MHMatthew Hussey
... just treating the, the wound. Like, let's, let's, we have to get you back to a f- you know, a feeling of safety again, of n- you know, getting, lessening this acute, uh, pain that you're feeling. But at a certain point, the question will come somewhere down the line, "What happened there?"
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Like, what was... "Now that we're in a better place, what actually happened in that situation? W- you know, what was going on that made you ignore your intuition?" Um, by the way, not instincts. Instincts and intuition are, are different.
- CWChris Williamson
How do you distinguish those?
- MHMatthew Hussey
Your intuition might be telling you something's not right. Like, some- this isn't... I shouldn't be treated like this, or I should be in a relationship that's not this hard, or whatever. Your intuition can tell you that. Your instincts, as my boxing trainer used to say, "Will get you killed."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- MHMatthew Hussey
'Cause your instinct might be, "I feel unsafe," try harder. I f- you know, I, I, I'm not getting love, try harder, do more, stay in it. Instincts are what tell you when you get sucked out by a riptide in the ocean to swim straight back to shore, and the riptide's stronger than you, so you die. [chuckles] The, the- your instincts won't tell you, "Swim, take a longer pa-" You already feel like you're gonna die?... take a longer swim back, swim sideways, parallel to the ocean or to the shoreline, and then swim around once you're out of the tide. Your instincts won't tell you that. Your instincts in, instincts in boxing don't tell you to slip. Your instincts in boxing tell you to blink right at the time where you need to have your eyes. So it's, in a relationship, we all, m- most of us at least, have some bad instincts that have been trained, and those instincts get us into a lot of trouble. And they-- and, and actually, it's not... Your instincts aren't necessarily you listening to yourself or that deeper voice. Your instincts are actually often what get in the way of that deeper voice and stop you protecting-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- MHMatthew Hussey
... yourself. [clears throat] So I, to, to add some compassion and some comfort to, to that idea that, you know, we get into this thing, and then I'm afraid to leave because I don't want to be the version of me that is like, realizes I've now lost myself, and I'm, like, feel like I'm starting from further behind and all of that.
- 40:24 – 53:12
Why You Shouldn’t Feel Shame in Your Emotions
- CWChris Williamson
Dude, you're so good. You're fucking fantastic. I mean, obviously, you're, like, a fossil at doing this stuff now. You're, like, part of the fucking archaeology of the world of relationships.
- MHMatthew Hussey
[laughing]
- CWChris Williamson
Um, but, uh, yo, I just think your insights are, are really, really wonderful, and I, I very much appreciate how you deliver them with sensitivity. Uh, a lot of the conversations now, especially actually even coming from, uh, sort of female advice online, feels male-coded. It's sort of quite stiff-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Huh
- CWChris Williamson
... and, and stern and spiky, uh, and it doesn't allow-- And maybe this is just because most of the stuff that goes viral doesn't have the breathing room in terms of duration to be able to say, "Well, we need to be gentle with people here, and we need to understand that humans do have emotions, and they can't act rationally," as opposed to, "Here's the five icks that you need to know is a red flag for whatever." Like, does it fit into forty-five seconds? If not, fuck off.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, but I think as a, a fellow sensitive Chad, um-
- MHMatthew Hussey
[laughing]
- CWChris Williamson
... [chuckles] like somebody who feels emotions more deeply than would probably be optimal-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... um, I think a lot of guys have-- I, I can only speak for men. I, I imagine women probably have this even more so. Like, they, o- on average, tend to feel emotions more deeply. Like, emotionality is one of the big sex differences between men and women. Um, but for the guys that do, they're like, "Fuck!" Like, I have a, a sense of shame or uncertainty or emasculation about the fact that I feel this thing, and I should just be able to cut and run or not invest or not feel th- things with the sort of level of depth that I do.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
And, um, I think it's reassuring to people to hear, "Oh, I- I'm not broken," like, that it's okay for me to feel it. Maybe it's even good for me to feel these things. Maybe it gives me access to a, a depth of life and a resolution of existence that other people don't, and with that is gonna come some potential pitfalls and some pains and some challenges. But if I can navigate those pretty well, look at how much, uh, beauty and connection and intimacy is available on the other side of this thing. Uh, but yeah, there's a bunch of pitfalls, and I think that, uh, the relationship, the, the, the ending of a relationship, the letting go, even, um, you know, in careers and friendships, this sort of-... weird balance that a lot of, uh, guys have, uh, and girls, too, increasingly now as they become sort of socioeconomically more independent-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
- and they've kind of got into their masculine energy more. Uh, increasingly, these sorts of people living those sorts of lives say, "Well, look at how much discomfort I can put up with in my professional life. Well, maybe I should apply that to my personal life."
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
"Maybe my resilience, my ability to endure hard things that I've developed in order to be great in my degree or great in my career or great at my sport of choice," or whatever it is, "well, I can put up with a lot of discomfort there." And then this skill gets ported over because it's a noble skill, right? For most of the world, putting up with discomfort, going through hard things, enduring stuff, uh, subjugating your own needs, putting your desires to one side in place of a bigger goal, chasing the dopamine, doing the thing, delayed gratification-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... right? Not taking right now's emotions as the most important thing, or right now's level of comfort or stability as the most important thing in place of something that's in future. And then when you take that and warp it just a tiny little bit, that becomes the very thing-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... that is catastrophic to your personal relationships.
- MHMatthew Hussey
It's a really, really, really, uh, astute point. And that, that skill in itself... And thank you, by the way, for what you said. It's very meaningful coming-
- CWChris Williamson
You're the GOAT, man. You're the GOAT
- MHMatthew Hussey
... from you. It means a lot. It really does. Um, the, that, that s- that skill, let's just call it, um, resilience, right? The ability to endure difficult things. It's a very, very powerful, uh, skill to have, a very powerful trait for one to have. Mm, but what we often don't realise is that there is... [clears throat] And I'm getting here into the work of people like Phil Stutz and Barry Michaels and, um, um, uh, Schwartz. But the, th- the idea that there is an inner child there who isn't-- who's gets overlooked when those skills mutate into your kind of bodyguards that you rely on to get the job done-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- MHMatthew Hussey
... in everything in your life. And those bodyguards showed up somewhere as a survival mechanism, like, "You're not equipped to deal with this. Like, I need to come along now and take care of this." And we forget who was, who predated the bodyguards, what part of us predated those bodyguards, what part of us is kind of sick of us running the show using these bodyguards, applying them to everything. These bodyguards are weaponised by fear, right? If you take your f-- you know, if you, for one second, take your eye off the ball, it's all gonna come crashing down.
- CWChris Williamson
Hypervigilance.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Right. There's a, the, the-- these bodyguards are, are, are armed with your greatest, most catastrophic fears. [laughing]
- CWChris Williamson
[laughing] Yeah.
- MHMatthew Hussey
And that brings them to life. And be- and, and behind all of them, the pa- part of us that doesn't have a voice is this part of us that, that didn't need to be all of that, that didn't need to have all of that.
- 53:12 – 58:11
Why Most Advice Doesn’t Actually Work
- CWChris Williamson
I wrote this essay about advice hyperresponders a few months ago, and it's basically that, um, advice for the masses often lands disproportionately. So if you say, "You should endure hard things, you should, uh, be resilient, you should suffer. On the other side of discomfort is something valuable," the people who are already not predisposed to taking that advice, it probably bounces off of. And the people for whom they assumed, "I knew I had to work harder. I knew that that was-- I knew I'm a piece of shit, and I knew that I needed to work harder," they're already killing themselves trying to do it.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So this idea of advice not landing evenly, and when you think about most people, on average, if you were to take a general population view, probably do need David Goggins screaming in their face, telling them to go harder, rather than Eckhart Tolle whispering in their ear that they're already enough. But that advice does not land evenly, and because of that, you need to go, "Oh, I, I, I have too much of that thing already, and maybe what I actually need to do is give myself a fucking break."
- MHMatthew Hussey
You have to be real about what you need. Dude, I had a personal trainer once that when he-- when I was, like, flat out, couldn't breathe, like, he would yell at me, and he'd call me names. Like, just drill sergeant style.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MHMatthew Hussey
I'm all... That, I got that guy in my head already. I don't need to externalize him. Like, that-... He, that's the voice I've been needing to quiet down my whole life. And I said to this trainer at the time, I was like: "Dude, you can't-- I promise you, this isn't what I need. Like, this isn't gonna work for me. I get it might be what some people need. You gotta find a different style with me. I'm good. You don't need to worry about me pushing myself. I'm pushing myself. If I'm on the fl..., it's 'cause I'm about to throw up. Like, you don't need to give me that energy, and if you do, I can't carry on with you." Within the same session, he couldn't... He went back to that gear, and I said to him, I c- and I, by the way, I like this person. I actually like this person, but I said, "Let's remain friends. I can't train with you anymore."
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, yeah.
- MHMatthew Hussey
But that was me recognizing that th- there's, the leading edge of my growth-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- MHMatthew Hussey
... is something else, and it's usually the thing that makes you the most uncomfortable. The other day, I had a, I woke up with a sore throat, and I, I was gonna, like, I was like, "Should I go to the gym, or should I go to jujitsu this morning?" I train early in the morning, so I was like, "Should I do it?" And there's that voice in my head that says, like, you know, I've got Jocko Willink in my head saying, like-
- CWChris Williamson
Stop being a pussy
- MHMatthew Hussey
... "Just go."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- MHMatthew Hussey
"Just go. Uh, ask your, you know, uh, fine, if you don't wanna go tomorrow, don't go tomorrow, but today, go."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- MHMatthew Hussey
And I'm like, "Yeah, but that's, that's always what I do." I'm not someone who stays in bed. I'm someone who gets up. So if I'm worrying, if I'm, like, on the edge, 'cause that's what people ask me when we're doing, like, values work of, you know, "What's your North Star right now, and what does change look like for you? What does growth look like for you?" There's often that feeling of like, [exhaling] "But do I really need to stay in bed right now, or is this one of those moments where I'm using it as a get-out to, to get out of do- doing something difficult?" N- those are hard questions, by the way, because when you're trying to do something new, it, there's a lot of clumsy recalibrating, and you'll swing too far in certain directions. If you're trying to be m-- if you're trying to get over your fear of confrontation, there are probably gonna be some times where you create confrontation over something you shouldn't. 'Cause you're just like, "I just, I'm, I'm, I don't know y- right now what's appropriate for me to do and say and what's not." But in that moment, my guiding light is, Matthew, over the last thirty-eight years of being alive [laughing] -
- CWChris Williamson
I know what you're gonna say
- MHMatthew Hussey
... has your bigger problem been slacking off and not doing the thing that's hard?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Or has it been giving yourself grace and not making things worse?
- CWChris Williamson
Bro, this is so great, and I think it is a, for every level, there's a devil. And as you become older and you have more experience, that intuition becomes more powerful, and you're able to sort of play with what to twenty-three-year-old Matthew, uh, needed to be a relatively one-dimensional piece of advice, which is, "Stop being such a pussy." [chuckles] Uh, uh, but after a while, you go, "I understand where my tolerances are. I understand what the ceiling feels like. I understand what the floor feels like. I understand the difference between backing off because I'm leaving something on the table and backing off because I'm going to get injured in one form or another." Uh,
- 58:11 – 1:12:40
Recognising You Are Enough Already
- CWChris Williamson
can I read you an essay?
- MHMatthew Hussey
Please.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. Some advice on how to support men. Men want to aim high without feeling insufficient if they fall short. Men want their suffering to be recognized and appreciated without being pandered to or patronized and made to feel weak.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Men want to believe that they can be more without feeling like they're not already enough. Men want to be able to open up without being judged. Men want support without feeling broken. Men want to be loved for who they are, not for what they do. TLDR, blending inspiration with compassion is not an easy task. How do I set lofty goals which drive me to fulfill my potential without feeling less than if I don't get there tomorrow? Is a question every guy has asked ever. The desire for self-love and high performance comes into conflict inside the mind of everyone, men especially. Sure, some men are all drive and goals with non-introspection, and sure, some men are all reflection and inner work with few external desires. But most men desire a mix of encouraged self-belief and understanding support. Inevitably, these two things come into conflict. Basically, every man just wants to hear, "I know you can be more, but you are enough already, and even if you just stay where you are, I'll be right here next to you. You're going to be great, but you don't need to be great, and I'm with you no matter what." Or as said best by Sturgill Simpson's mum in one of his songs, "Boy, I don't care if you hit it big because you're already number one."
- MHMatthew Hussey
Hmm. Wow, that's beautiful.
- CWChris Williamson
"I know you can be more, but you are enough already, and even if you just stay where you are, I'll be right here next to you. You're going to be great, but you don't need to be great, and I'm with you no matter what." Fucking hell, dude. Like, I, I wonder how few guys have ever heard anybody say something like that. You can do wonderful things, but it doesn't matter if you don't. I think you've got, um... Don't praise a guy's achievements, praise the personality traits that made them possible. It's kind of the same sort of thing. Like, I'm not, I'm not fussed about the outcome that you get from this. I'm k- I'm bothered about the inputs that sort of go into it, and those inputs can be malleable, right? If the output... Like, if guys' outcomes, there's a difference between inputs, outputs, and outcomes, I think. Inputs, how hard you work. Outputs, what the work, uh, uh, resulted in. And then outcomes, what the, um, like, final r- uh, uh, uh, um, uh, end of the equation when it hits the real world is. The-... the sense of malleability that guys have got, if you praise them based on effort and traits as oppo-- And I'm sure this is the same for women, too, rah, rah, rah. But if it's outcomes, you go: "Well, that means I just need to grow the company, or I need to work harder, or I need to become more muscular, or I need to do whatever," as opposed to, "Oh, it's your, uh, tenacity that I really respect," or, "It's your loyalty," or, "It's your sensitivity." And you say, "Oh, well, there's three thousand ways that I can manifest that into the world, and that means that I don't feel like the pressure that I already put on myself..." And again, this is for a very specific subset of, of humans, but they're almost exclusively the sort of humans that listen [chuckles] to Modern Wisdom, listen to your show, too, right? So, you know, they're like, uh, people that hyper respond to advice differently. It's like, yes, that's true if you take a broad cross-section of the world, but not if you take my audience. They're just the Type A people with Type B problems, like insecure overachiever, [chuckles] uh, group. Like, oh, well, that means that my sensitivity is my strength, and the fact that she really cared how I was there for her when her dad died means that... Because that's like sensitivity, but like in a sort of a rigid, like, way. Like, I'm gonna be stern. It's like, huh, well, maybe, may- maybe she'll be okay with me talking about how I've got some self-doubt coming in from work, and she'll be able to help me work through that, too. Or she really appreciated my loyalty to my friend when he was going through a tough time. Huh, well, maybe that means that my loyalty to her is, is valued in a different way, as opposed to, like, I care about... Or sh- she appreciates how hard I worked, like, to build the business, as opposed to how big the business is. You know?
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, I just think that distinction, don't praise a guy's achievements, praise the personality traits, and I know you can be more, but you're enough already, and I'll be right here next to you, even if you don't change. I just think that's like, for the women that are listening, like, if you want a guy to just, like, fucking completely melt emotionally and then go on and end worlds, like, rip the fuck out of it. Like, I think, I think that's it. I think that's the playbook, personally.
- MHMatthew Hussey
No, I, I, I think that's, it-- to, to receive that kind of compliment from someone, it's, it's like as truly safe as you can feel-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- MHMatthew Hussey
... in, in yourself. I, I, I, I think that women, um, eh, men, women, anybody n- need to also really realize that if they're anxious, this is n- this is not an uncommon feeling. If you are doubting yourself, this is not an uncommon feeling, and it's... You know, I heard, uh, Jesse Eisenberg talking about, like, having a panic attack on set.
- CWChris Williamson
Severe anxiety, right? Yeah.
- MHMatthew Hussey
And he, he was in the middle of a scene, and the director, uh, he, he c- he, he paused the scene and said, uh... He went over to the director and said: "I'm sorry, like, something's happening with me. Uh, I, I'm not, like, able to go on right now." And the director just said, "Everyone, take five." And he essentially said to Jesse Eisenberg: "You, if you didn't have these feelings, it would be strange."
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- MHMatthew Hussey
"Like, you're learning all these lines. You're on a set. You're trying to be emotionally sensitive. You're trying to do your thing. You're trying to make sure your makeup's right. At the same time, you're trying to like... There's so many things here that if you..." He said: "I don't know how you do it. Like, if you weren't constantly feeling this way, that would be weird to me." And Jesse Eisenberg describes this feeling of like, oh, because as soon as he didn't feel like he was broken for having those feelings, it actually gave him the, the ability to embrace them and to say, "Well, then, my job is just to do the best I can do with them."
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- MHMatthew Hussey
"I'm not a freak for having them." And I think that men especially, because we, we don't talk enough, and the m- the most, for me, the most powerful conversations I have that make me feel better tend to be with other men who are being honest. When I'm on the phone to a friend, when you and I are on the phone together, and we're just being honest about things-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm
- MHMatthew Hussey
... I'll always get off that call and just feel better about myself. I don't get off the call... I only feel, get off a call feeling worse about myself if it's become some egoic call, where we're all talking about what we're achieving and this and that, and then I'm like: Am I doing enough? Am I this? Am I that? But if I'm just having a call with someone, and we're, like, having real conversation about things, I go away going, "Oh, it's not just me."
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- MHMatthew Hussey
And then I, I'm like: "Oh, well, then, I think then I'm fine."
- CWChris Williamson
[chuckles]
- MHMatthew Hussey
And then, I, my job is not to not have any of these feelings or to think that I'm deficient in some way for having them. My, I... We're all having some version of it, so now my job is just to do the best I can with them, given my life, my makeup, my DNA. There's a great, um, uh, concept I loved. I think it's from Alfred Adler-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- MHMatthew Hussey
... the psychologist-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- MHMatthew Hussey
... who talked about the idea of relationships being a, uh, being horizontal, not vertical. That when we have horizontal relationships, we look at someone that we think is ahead of us, and it makes us insecure because we think we're behind somehow. He said, "But if you imagine instead that you're all on a football field together-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- MHMatthew Hussey
... and you're all just moving along the football field-... on your own speed, your own journey, getting to where you can get to based on you and all of your factors. It's not- n- doesn't matter whether someone else has won the Super Bowl, and you're raising a family somewhere.
- 1:12:40 – 1:22:06
Why Being Truly Seen Feels So Threatening
- MHMatthew Hussey
abundance.
- CWChris Williamson
There's this line from Oliver Burkeman where he says, uh, "Outward complaints are not a good gauge of internal suffering. Just because somebody carries it well, doesn't mean it isn't heavy."
- MHMatthew Hussey
Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So good, and yet this sort of boring, mundane, private victory, where you've overcome-... some something, right? Like, it's that day where you didn't get sleep because you accidentally had a coffee too late-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
-and you had to deal with that email, and you hit that bit of traffic, and you did this thing, and you did this thing, and you did this thing. And it's so-- it's honestly so normal and unspectacular that it might not even register with your evening conversation with your partner, unless you have, like, a particularly open, like, connection with them. But getting through those, those mundane victories or boring successes, uh, those are the ones that even though they're not grand, they are even more important. Because life is largely made up of overcoming those things, and of how you deal with those things, and of the resistance of them. And I think a good part of it is, and one of the reasons that men, in particular, uh, struggle, is that I just want someone to see how fucking hard it is sometimes. Like, this really, really sucks sometimes, or maybe even a lot of the time. Just see it, please.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
Just, like, pat me on the back and go, "That's not easy. F- dude, you, you crushed it for getting through that." Uh, and it's an odd kind of [inhaling] appreciation, awareness, recognition. It's like a gratitude from somebody else. Like, they've sort of inserted it into us. They've hit us with a tranquillizer dart that's been filled with-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... being seen. It's like, "Yeah, that, that was tough. Sorry you went through that. Congratulations for doing it." Like, "Oh-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
-thank you, thank you!" And a- again, the advice hyper-responder thing, for the people that worry, "Well, if I let my foot off the gas, or if I take too much of this, you know, this sort of pussy sympathy stuff, I'm gonna lose my edge." It's like, you haven't lost your edge ever. Like, when was the last time that you backed off because you were being lazy? Like, if you're the sort of per- if you're the sort of person that has hit burnout more than t- two times, it's like, what side of the ledger do you think that you typically fall on?
- MHMatthew Hussey
And, and that thing that you're afraid of in yourself, that you, to let too much of it in, it might have more wisdom than you realize. That-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, well, you've drained the fucking well of this side. You've drained the well of the Goggins energy stuff.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It's like-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... well, what's on the other side of something that's truly uncomfortable to you? Vulnerability, openness, sensitivity, connection, intimacy, truth. Like-
- MHMatthew Hussey
It's a different kind of power, and, and you don't know what that power's gonna... You don't know what doors that's gonna open for you. That's the thing.
- CWChris Williamson
That's really scary, right? There's, there's the fear of getting up early. There's, like, the discomfort, the endurance that's required, the resilience that's required to do that. But what about the resilience required to truly say what you want or what you actually think to somebody about them in a sensitive way, and to just say it and be like, "Allow it to land?"
- MHMatthew Hussey
Now you're in no man's land. You, you're, you're basically off-road at that point, 'cause you don't know... You know how to navigate the, the thing you've always done. You don't know how to navigate... It's like, if I s- if someone was always sarcastic in conversation, and I say, "The key to your power at this point is to start to weave in some sincerity."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Now, that person, i- you-- all, all of, like, change, personal change is contained, even just in a s- a, an example as pedestrian as this and as superficial as this. Because that person developed their sarcasm as a response to something, and it worked for them on some level, which is why they kept doing it. And it became just entrenched as their way of being. But that way of being created their world. So now the way people respond to them, the opportunities they get, the opportunities they don't get, that they don't even know they don't get, is all a result of that way of being, or in part from that way of being. But if they stop doing that, and if they listen to that advice to br- "Hey, bring down the sarcasm. Bring up the sincerity, the vulnerability, the connection," that person is going... In sarcasm, they're a black belt. [chuckles] Over here-
- CWChris Williamson
Honestness
- MHMatthew Hussey
... they don't even know how to walk. [chuckles] So now you've, you're, like, teaching someone how to walk in an area as a fully grown adult who's like, "I don't wanna be in conversation now. If I stop being sarcastic," and none of, none of this is really conscious, but in, what's really going on is, "If I s- stop being sarcastic as my response system to things, what will I say? I won't even know what to say to begin with. So now I go from sounding slightly clever and maybe a bit witty, at the very least, having other people on the back foot-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm, with evidence that this works in the past.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Right. To someone says something, and I, I, I go, "Y- yeah, no, it was a good weekend last weekend." Because I don't know what else to say, because I'm not used to going to that style and that way of conversing and connecting with people. So now you're asking... This is why change is so fucking difficult, is because you're asking that person to give up f- maybe temporarily or in part, a tool that they know, a weapon they've wielded for so long, and to bring forward a weapon they don't know how to wield at all, and to suck at it, and to live with sucking at it for some time.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Not... W- with a leap of faith that doing this is gonna get me more or better results.... than sticking to the thing that I know. It is extraordinarily hard, and it's why, by the way, I think that we should have some sympathy for the members of our family, or our friends, or anyone close to us who we are so tired of trying to get to change, and we're like: "But you could be so happy if you just change this one thing," or if you, "You would be so much-- We would have such a better relationship if you just stop that one thing." Because it's as hard for that person to change that thing as it is for you to change something that you find nearly impossible to change. And it's why true change in any family system, right? We're all part of a family system in some way. We all came from one in some way. True change is a fucking miracle, and when you actually deviate from your programming, you're a pioneer. You're the pioneer of your lineage [chuckles] 'cause most of them didn't or couldn't, didn't even come close. You carried the torch a little further. W- If you're finding it really... If you're wa-- If someone watching this out there and going, "It's so hard to do, like, to change this thing," or whatever, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That's why so few people do it.
- 1:22:06 – 1:34:20
The Surprising Strength Being Vulnerability
- CWChris Williamson
I've been thinking about vulnerability recently. Vulnerability is hard. Fully feeling your feelings gets in the way of life. They slow you down, make you doubt, open you up to mockery, and cause you pain. Embracing your emotions sounds great in principle but feels frail in practice. That being said, I want to try and prove to you that embracing vulnerability is true strength. Vulnerability is speaking your truth even when it's scary. It's Joe Hudson's definition. Who is truly the braver person, the one who lets themselves feel or the one who flees the second an emotion gets too close? The one strong enough to carry the full weight of their emotional experience, or the one so fragile that they have to suppress it? Without vulnerability, there's no courage. If there's no uncertainty, no risk, no exposure, you're not being that brave because there's nothing on the line. We're so quick to praise suppression as strength. We call it control, discipline. We pretend that emotional detachment is a sign of maturity, but fully living your life means actually feeling what happens, not just performing composure while something inside you quietly breaks. The enemy here is toxic stoicism, not the grounded, reflective kind, the hollowed-out kind. The kind that rewards shutdown, that teaches you to be proud of how little you feel, as though restraint were the same thing as resilience. Fearing vulnerability turns your inner world into a minefield. It teaches you to treat emotions like threats, so you tiptoe carefully through your life, trying to not set anything off. Proud of your control, but slowly growing more disconnected from life around you. This isn't strength, it's avoidance rebranded.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Oh, that's very good.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm trying to make-
- MHMatthew Hussey
That's very good.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm trying to make vulnerability strong again.
- MHMatthew Hussey
[laughing]
- CWChris Williamson
But, like, I, I just think-
- MHMatthew Hussey
It's very good
- CWChris Williamson
... it, th- that point there, like-
- MHMatthew Hussey
I'm enjoying your writing.
- CWChris Williamson
Thank you.
- MHMatthew Hussey
You're- you write beautifully.
- CWChris Williamson
Thank you. Yeah, I'm spending... I, I mean, I do this newsletter every week, and, uh, it's a, it's a thousand words, so it's like everyone can write a thousand words a week. So, but it, after a while, I've done it for five years, so that's a quarter of a million words. That's a lot of fucking writing. [inhales] Um, and a lot of this stuff is... I'm not very good at journaling, never really been very good at journaling, but it turns out that if I have to write for an audience, I'm much more consistent than if I have to write for myself. [chuckles] Uh, and, uh, much of this is me like, "Ah, okay, I've conceded the fact that I'm a sensitive guy," uh, even if I present, like, a budget Andrew Tate. Um-
- MHMatthew Hussey
[chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
... I've conceded that I feel shit more deeply than some people, maybe most people, and maybe that I've let myself, in the past, realize that I feel stuff as deeply as, like, I've suppressed that.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
There wasn't much room in the northeast of England at a state primary, secondary, and sixth form college, and then, you know, university living with lads. Uh, there wasn't much room for, "Oh, this conversation I had today sort of, like, really made me a bit upset, and I felt excluded, and, hmm, like, that's whatever," or, "I watched a Christmas movie, and I cried 'cause it was, like, really cute," or, like, "I saw a photo of a dog," or, like, "This girl that I..." Whatever. You know, there's not much room for that, and I think again, it's because-... emotional mastery is an element of almost every definition of masculinity that exists cross-culturally, some sort of emotional mastery. And that's because if you are unable to effectively control the things that you feel, you cannot show up and operate reliably, because you are going to be ragged around at the winds of whatever you feel, as opposed to, "I just get done what needs to get done." And again, this praises suppression as strength, right?
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And restraint as the same thing as resilience. Um, but this fleeing from emotions, it sort of comes back to what we were talking about before. Okay, you realize where you're-- what are the things that you're really hiding from? Like, what are the things that you're really unprepared to face? And it's not more of the same. It's not more bench press or Brazilian jujitsu or even more time meditating, right? All of these things are, uh, actions that you have done. They're, they are a, uh, intentional control, uh, agentic approach to the world. They are not a release. They are not you letting go of, of that control. They are not you sort of turning inward and facing... They're not-- It's not about exposure, uh, it's not about opening up. And this, is there space for it in the world? Well, very rarely have you had someone that's... Certainly, very few people's parents are sufficiently, uh, educated in accepting the, the, the complexity of a young, sensitive person's emotions to be able to really give you a safe space. You don't even know how to navigate it. How the fuck are they? Like, you're a different person. Um, so you grow up learning, "Well, I should probably just, like, not talk about that stuff and not open up in that sort of a way, because it scares people," or it does something else. I learned this thing from Joe Hudson. Fucking awesome story. His daughter was seven years old, and she was crying in the bathroom, and she'd been crying a, a little bit recently over a, a course of a few months. And he went in and was having a conversation with her about why she was crying. He said, "You, you don't sound very sad to me. Are you pissed off?" She said, "Yeah!" He's like: "Hang on. You know when you cry, how, how often are you pissed off and how often are you sad?" She's like, "About fifty percent." He's like, "Okay, so half the time when you're crying, you're pissed off, not sad?" "Yeah." "Like, why, why don't you get angry?" Says, "Well, [sniffs] when I cry, my sister comes and comforts me, but when I get angry, everyone runs away."
- MHMatthew Hussey
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, wow! There are certain emotions-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... that are more pro-social than others. Anger is one of them. And I think that for men, sensitivity is one of the things, like a, a particular type of sensitivity, especially if it's messy. Like, if you see a guy who's, like, out of control with his emotions, not in an aggressive way, almost when that happens, it's like, oh, there's respect out there. Like, you know, he's like, the, the-- there's-- wrapped up in the sort of warrior mindset.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
And like, yeah, maybe he's lost his chill, but it's done in a sort of directional, agentic kind of way. You know what I mean? It's lean in, ten toes down type shit.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, this guy's, this guy's, like, struggling and down. Most people don't know what to do with that, and I, I think that that makes... In the same way as Joe's daughter said, like: "When I'm angry, people run away, but when I cry, my sister comes and comforts me," uh, I think that that's kind of the a, a similar lesson that a lot of guys have learned, which is, uh, when I feign strength, people respect me, and when I embrace sensitivity, people turn away.
- MHMatthew Hussey
It's what makes... Like, the most important decisions you'll ever make will, uh, I think, are who you put yourself around, who you choose as your friends, who you choose as your partners, because that there are people on this planet who are good with emotion, who are-- have really evolved ways of being around someone who's emotional because they're, they're in touch with themselves, too. And, uh, we often masochistically continue to put ourselves around people who, who don't allow it for-- they don't allow themselves to be that way, let alone us.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- MHMatthew Hussey
So it's like we're taking people who are, you know, not good at this thing, and we're basing our behavior on their acceptance of us. I, I think we should get around people who are emotionally, uh, emotional black belts, and make more friends with those people, make more friends with people who aren't afraid to be vulnerable.
- 1:34:20 – 1:48:58
Is Compatibility the Biggest Problem in Relationships?
- CWChris Williamson
Another element here is m- a lot of people, I think, especially the guys, uh, a- a- and the girls who have an issue with, let's say, sensitivity or have an issue with stoicness, right? On whatever side, whichever side of this equation you are. Like, I have a preference or a demeanor, and my partner doesn't accept it or isn't able to reciprocate it. I think what you're talking about there is just a lack of compatibility, and so much of what is being navigated in relationships is just a straight-up lack of compatibility. I had this idea that it's far easier to date somebody who compensates for our shortcomings than it is to fix them.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
So if you are the sort of person that likes to go to bed at nine PM, and your partner wants to go out clubbing three nights a week, there is going to be tension there, and you're going to have to navigate it. Now, maybe the rest of the relationship is so good that this slightly major thing of a different fucking sleeping pattern can be navigated through because everything else is great. But for the most part, there's going to be other stuff that comes along for the ride that you also don't agree on. Now, if you have to compromise your sleep two nights a week, and they have to not go out one night a week, both of you aren't getting the thing that you want, right? It is much... There is somebody out there who would love to party three nights a week. Allow them to find them. There is someone that would adore going to bed with you at nine PM every single night and wants that homebody life. Go and find them.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And so much of the, uh, the issues where people are trying to navigate this stuff is a lack of compatibility. Same thing goes for this. I think a lot of the guys who say, "I opened up to my partner..." Okay, so you feel feelings. That's good. Congratulations, you faced the scary thing, right? As a man, you faced the scary thing, and my partner was turned off. They weren't for you. That partner was not the person who can hold you in your wholeness, right, in your truth, in your full expression of who you are. Allow them to go and find someone who is never going to open up their emotions to them. They don't need to worry about those icks. They're never gonna get that ick because homeboy is never gonna fucking talk about it.
- MHMatthew Hussey
[chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
Enjoy that. Enjoy this emotionless, barren wasteland of no one ever talking about their emotions. And maybe that's the guy that if you put him on a fucking poster, you can say, "He's masculine, and he's gonna stand up." It's like, great! You can date him. I'm gonna go find someone who melts at the prospect of me being able to feel my feelings and then allows them to be a springboard for me to go and fucking destroy in the world outside. Like, that amount of compatibility and so much of, like, the memes that exist online are basically people saying, "I dated someone whose demeanor and disposition did not match mine and my preference, and look at how everything broke apart." Allow me to create a broad rule-
- MHMatthew Hussey
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... of human nature overall from what is actually just you mixing vinegar and baking soda together.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Yeah. And that, that, what you just described is-... I think how people get more and more into these, uh, hyper-polarized echo chambers online because they- they've had an experience, it's been a very painful experience. They then go in search of other people who've had that experience, and they hear more of it. And I'm not saying communities where people talk together about what they've been through aren't powerful, 'cause they are. But what it can be instead is this... You know, I talk, I talk in the, in, in my book about this idea of the wall, like staring at the wall. You know, the, the very famous self-development trope. You know, the ma- race car driver, Mario Andretti, said, i- you know, his advice for race car driving, "Don't stare at the wall. Your cars go... Your car goes where your eyes go." And, but that, I don't think people take that concept far enough in terms of what it really means. It, we all have our wall, right? Let's say it's people can't have... People, women don't like when I'm vulnerable, right? That's my wall. I was vulnerable with someone once, and they ripped my heart out. And so now I go in search of other people who have that wall as well, and all of us together stand there and point at the wall, and we keep talking about the wall, and we find more evidence for the wall. Everywhere we can find it, we go out and search for it. Anytime we hear a story about it, we say, "Here, look, this has happened again."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- MHMatthew Hussey
And the wall becomes the world.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- MHMatthew Hussey
It's no longer a wall.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a law.
- MHMatthew Hussey
It's life, yeah. And that's the, that's the truly dangerous part, and that's... Like, we have to stand back from... A- any time I hear m- women generalizing about men, men generalizing about women, and I'm like, "Be very, very careful of the, the little worlds that you get into."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, turning a, an individual experience into a globalized law.
- MHMatthew Hussey
I ha- I... There's a, there's a, um... The other day I was on Instagram. My algorithm fed me a guy, one of those little skit videos where it was a guy saying, "Me doing XYZ because I don't have kids."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- MHMatthew Hussey
So it was like me waking up at 8 p- 8:00 AM because I don't have... Me eating pizza at night bec- me checking my bank account that's so high because I don't have kids. It was like all of that, and there were thousands of comments on this. And I was, like, waiting for the... I was like, "Oh, um, people are, people are gonna be, like, tearing this guy to shreds in the comments about, like, how this is such a one-dimensional view," and blah, blah, blah. No. Thousands of comments from people just being like, "Yeah, me too. I'm, you know, I, I don't have to do anything on my weekends, and I- "
- CWChris Williamson
I'm facing the wall along with you.
- MHMatthew Hussey
Yeah, but it, it was like just, like, everyone who had that wall, apparently the algorithm found them- [laughing] ... and all of them-
- CWChris Williamson
Well, it picked, it picked you wrong. You're-
- MHMatthew Hussey
It was-
- CWChris Williamson
-ready to pop at the moment.
- MHMatthew Hussey
For sure, yeah, in the next couple of weeks. Like, but it's a funny thing for me as someone who wa- you know, is having my first child with my wife, who's, like, watching this and going... And by the way, looking at it and going, "I know that there was a me that was scared of commitment and having kids and all of that, that really would've related to the things in this video."
- CWChris Williamson
Well, the, the problem that you have with these is that there is a cohort of men out there for whom that is the life that they want and probably is the life that they should lead. You're like, "You'd suck as a dad, and you shouldn't make yourself one. Please continue to do that," right? It's the same as, it's the same as, uh, women that say, like, "All men are trash," or whatever. Like, if you make these sweeping statements, one of the wonderful sort of ways to, uh, neutralize, uh, the, the, the conversation, and also it makes you feel pretty good, too. It's like, "Men are trash, and, like, I'm, I'm done with men." It's like, "Okay, feel free." And you allow somebody to take the route that they want. The same thing with that guy. It's like, "I'm so happy living this life." It's like, "Dude, great for you. You'd have been an awful dad anyway." [laughing] Oh, well, oh, no, no. It's like, "Okay, well, which one is it, big boy? Like, which one do you want? Do you want to be able to have the, um, counterculture, fucking black sheep, heterodox cynicism points, or do you want to be able to say that you could have been this, would have been good at this, but have chosen the other one?" 'Cause I, I, I, I don't think that these two worlds are compatible, and allowing someone to, like, "There's enough rope, dude. Crack on."
- MHMatthew Hussey
Yeah, well, we're not good at... I don't, we don't like the complexity of, of life, and so we do kind of gravitate towards-
- CWChris Williamson
One dimension
- MHMatthew Hussey
... these very simple, like, argue... I re- when I was single, I had, I remember watching Guardians of the Galaxy, the first one-
- 1:48:58 – 1:50:01
What’s Next For Matthew?
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, dude, I, I, I love you. I love your work. I think you're fucking fantastic. Everyone needs to check out everything that you're doing, and, uh, you're gonna have a kid by the time this comes out as well. You're gonna have a brand-new little Hussey in the world.
- MHMatthew Hussey
It's a crazy time, man. I, I, I... My whole life will change in a matter of t- the next two weeks from this episode. I said, my wife already, we're- she's at term, so, like, it could have happened, you know-
- CWChris Williamson
While we're on this podcast
- MHMatthew Hussey
... I could have got that call-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah
- MHMatthew Hussey
... in the middle of this podcast to say it's time to go to the hospital.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- MHMatthew Hussey
But I, I love you, too, brother, and it's like a... It's a real... I get excited about the conversations we have.
- CWChris Williamson
Me, too.
- MHMatthew Hussey
I think you're doing something really, really different. Y- you know, you know I feel that way. I think you're doing something special, and you're special, and it's something unique you're bringing to the world, so thanks for having me.
- CWChris Williamson
I appreciate you. Until next time, man. [upbeat music] Thank you very much for tuning in. A very, uh, deep conversation with Matthew. I, I loved it. I thought it was great. Uh, I really hope you enjoyed it. Uh, Mel Robbins, also just phenomenal. You, you need to go and watch her, so hurry up. It's great.
Episode duration: 1:50:01
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