Understanding Friendship | Lydia Denworth | Modern Wisdom Podcast 152

1. 0:00 – 1:04

   Intro

   1. LDLydia Denworth0:00

      Loneliness is your body's signal that you need to connect, just like thirst and hunger are a signal that you need to eat or drink. Um, and so if you're feeling it, you should take that as, you should take that seriously. You should take that as a warning.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:18

      (wind blowing) Lydia, has there ever been a better time to be talking about friendship?

   3. LDLydia Denworth0:24

      It's pretty top of mind these days, isn't it? (laughs) Right now, um, it's critical that we hang out with our friends, that we help, uh, I'm sorry, you know what? I shouldn't be saying that right now. We shouldn't be hanging out. (laughs)

   4. CWChris Williamson0:38

      You can't hang out, and that's the problem, right? That's the challenge.

   5. LDLydia Denworth0:40

      You can't hang out, right. Uh, and so, the, the, but the thing is that our need to connect is a fundamental piece of the fabric of society and of what it is to be human, and so we have to find ways to be with our friends from a distance-

   6. CWChris Williamson1:00

      (laughs)

   7. LDLydia Denworth1:00

      ... right now. (laughs) We have to show up from a distance.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:03

      Yeah, I

2. 1:04 – 2:08

   Digital Friendship

   1. CWChris Williamson1:04

      suppose that previously, if we'd had a global pandemic at any other time in human history, we wouldn't have had the technology to facilitate this, our, our, um, tech friendship that we're about to have for the next 45 minutes or so, you know? Like...

   2. LDLydia Denworth1:19

      No, that's right. Uh, you know, and the irony is that so many people are so worried about the effects of technology and digi- and the sort of digital resi- revolution on friendship and on social interaction, but right now, the, the timing is perfect for us to embrace digital friendship and all that it has to offer. And I hope what we do is that from this experience, we take the good and then, you know, we get back to spending some time in real life with people. I mean, that should never go away as being important, but since we can't do that right at this moment, uh, there, we are really fortunate that we have these ways to connect. And in fact, I'm having more Zoom video conferencing with my friends-

   3. CWChris Williamson2:01

      Mm-hmm.

   4. LDLydia Denworth2:01

      ... that I've, in fact, I never did that with my friends. I only did it for work, and now everybody wants to have a Zoom conference. It's really

3. 2:08 – 3:07

   How do you define friendship

   1. LDLydia Denworth2:08

      kind of hilarious.

   2. CWChris Williamson2:09

      Yeah, that's kind of funny, this, uh, proxy for friendship that we've got. So-

   3. LDLydia Denworth2:12

      Right.

   4. CWChris Williamson2:12

      ... um, how do you define a friendship?

   5. LDLydia Denworth2:15

      Well, what's really interesting is that when biologists and neuroscientists and anthropologists really set out to study friendship more seriously recently, one of the things that they were trying to do from the start was define it and, and measure it, you know, figure out what it was exactly, because in science, you have to be able to me- you have to be able to measure. You need definitions. And really, it comes down to a very simple sort of minimal, there are three minimal requirements. A friendship is a relationship that's long-lasting, so it's stable and reliable. It's, you know, somebody you've known awhile. It's positive. It makes you feel good, both of you. And it's reciprocal, so there's cooperation involved. So you have to have give and take, right? It can't just be, it can't be lopsided, let's say. (laughs)

4. 3:07 – 4:16

   How many people have friendships

   1. CWChris Williamson3:07

      I wonder how many-

   2. LDLydia Denworth3:07

      And, you know-

   3. CWChris Williamson3:08

      I, I wonder how many people who have friendships or that think that they have friendships when applying them to those criteria would realize that they absolutely definitely don't have friendships.

   4. LDLydia Denworth3:18

      Well, this is the thing. It's three legs of the stool, right? And, and a lot of us have two, but we maybe don't always have the third consistently. And now, I should also say that in human friendships, um, you can have a lot of other things too. I mean, there can be, people like to, people think of loyalty and trust and things like that, and that's all great, but without those three things I mentioned, you know, you're, you're not quite there. And so one of the things that comes up the most often is that we have a lot of long time relationships, but that don't always make us feel good. They can be even, they can be ambivalent or-

   5. CWChris Williamson3:55

      Mm-hmm.

   6. LDLydia Denworth3:55

      ... worse than that. Uh, and sometimes we hang onto them just because, you know, there's a lot of history there. And so I think that one of the things that the science of friendship should do is get people thinking a little harder about who's in their life and why and what they get out of it and, and what it might cost them.

   7. CWChris Williamson4:15

      I couldn't

5. 4:16 – 6:22

   Why did friendships evolve

   1. CWChris Williamson4:16

      agree more. I, I'm a big proponent of people questioning who is in their life. You know? The, you're right. We kind of grandfather these old artifacts of a past life in. You know, the, the guy who, um, used to be a rugby American football bro back when he was 18, but now after two doctorates and a bunch of other stuff, and he's still got these friends-

   2. LDLydia Denworth4:39

      (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson4:39

      ... and there's a bit of a juxtaposition and he doesn't really know how, how that works, you know? It's, it is interesting. Um, so why did friendships evolve? Why do we have them?

   4. LDLydia Denworth4:50

      Well, we have them, really fundamentally, we have them to help protect us against the stresses of day-to-day life. And, um, but they evolved initially as a way to protect against predators. I mean, quite literally, the lion on the savanna in Africa. (laughs) And, and also as a way to help find food and things like that, and then they evolved because in order to solve those kinds of problems, early humans had to live in groups and even other animals had to live in groups, and, uh, like non-human primates live in groups, and they do that to protect themselves and to better their chances of survival. And the more individuals are in your group, the more complex the social interaction is, and so that is part of the explanation for why we have the brains that we have, you know? The size of our brains is partly dictated by the complexities of our social world. And so, you know, there aren't lions in most of our lives today anymore literally, except there are plenty of figurative lions, you know? I live in New York City and, uh, (laughs) there's challenges to living in New York City today, and my friends are really there to help me get through those.... but the important thing is that our brains are very, we, we feel rewarded by the time we spend with friends. We really enjoy it, and that reward, that sense of reward is part of what makes us keep coming back and sort of deepen the relationship so that those people are there when we need them or they

6. 6:22 – 7:44

   Why do we feel good around friends

   1. LDLydia Denworth6:22

      need us.

   2. CWChris Williamson6:22

      I get it. So, is the reason that we feel good around friends, that that would have been fitness enhancing evolutionarily?

   3. LDLydia Denworth6:29

      Yes, yes, absolutely. So often, we feel, we enjoy the things that we should do more of. Now, of course, that's a little complicated 'cause there are some things we do that (laughs) that we enjoy that are not always so great for us. But it is very much true that the reward centers in the brain are generally designed to, to encourage behavior that is going to help us survive, is going to increase our fitness. And so enjoying the fun that we have with friends is, is not just a sort of byproduct. It's, it is there for a reason. It's, you know, so the pleasure we get from each other is, is really, uh, is not just psychological but physiological. I mean, the way, for instance, our bodies produce, um, neurotransmitters like oxytocin that make us, that increase our bonding with a person, and not just, you know, we think of oxytocin as something between mothers and babies perhaps, and it is. It's, uh, it's, it's released when mothers are nursing newborns and things like that. But it also is released in, in other people who are just friends when they're interacting, and so it's strengthening the tie, it's making you feel stronger about your relationship with somebody, and then that makes you keep, keeps you coming

7. 7:44 – 9:24

   How many friendships can I have

   1. LDLydia Denworth7:44

      back.

   2. CWChris Williamson7:45

      How many friendships can I have 'cause I've got like four-

   3. LDLydia Denworth7:48

      (laughs)

   4. CWChris Williamson7:48

      ... four and a half thousand friends on Facebook. So-

   5. LDLydia Denworth7:50

      Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson7:50

      ... can, can I be friends-

   7. LDLydia Denworth7:51

      Okay.

   8. CWChris Williamson7:51

      ... with that many people?

   9. LDLydia Denworth7:53

      Not in the same way.

   10. CWChris Williamson7:54

       (laughs)

   11. LDLydia Denworth7:54

       Uh, you can, you can be Facebook friends with that many people.

   12. CWChris Williamson7:57

       And I am.

   13. LDLydia Denworth7:58

       But the rea- and you are.

   14. CWChris Williamson7:59

       Yeah.

   15. LDLydia Denworth8:00

       And, and I, I am too. I have thousands of friends on Facebook, but, uh, but you, so interestingly, quality is more important than quantity, and when it comes to your health, uh, the most, the biggest cha- difference, the step change is between zero and one friends.

   16. CWChris Williamson8:20

       Okay.

   17. LDLydia Denworth8:20

       So really, truly, if you have just one friend, you are better off by a mile than if you have none. Um, but most of us in our, in our inner circle have an average of four really good friends, or people that we really feel are essential to our life, and that is usually split between family and friends. Um, but most of us don't have more than, say, six. Like, eight would be really unusual. And, uh, and so like I say, four is the average, and so we're not saying you have to be the life of the party. Your Facebook friends are something different. I'm guessing that some of those people are people that you really see a lot outside of, you know, in your on- offline life, and some of them are people that you barely know, if you have ever met them at all. Uh, and that's just a, it's a different, that's a different thing. And we know the difference, by the way, between Facebook friends and actual friends. That's why we use the phrase Facebook friends. (laughs)

   18. CWChris Williamson9:18

       (laughs)

   19. LDLydia Denworth9:18

       (laughs)

   20. CWChris Williamson9:18

       Yeah.

   21. LDLydia Denworth9:18

       I think. (laughs)

   22. CWChris Williamson9:18

       It's kind of dis- it's kind of disparaging a little bit, isn't it, to say, oh, well-

   23. LDLydia Denworth9:20

       Yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson9:21

       ... I know them o- I know them on Facebook, but I'm not really friends with them. Um,

8. 9:24 – 11:29

   gradations of friends

   1. CWChris Williamson9:24

      you, you were talking there about the, the fact that we've got gradations of friends, you could call it.

   2. LDLydia Denworth9:30

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson9:31

      Like this, this depth-

   4. LDLydia Denworth9:31

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson9:31

      ... of friendship. What is it that makes someone be part of the one or the three or the six and someone be part of everything else? What's the difference?

   6. LDLydia Denworth9:40

      Uh, it's really just, um, how, how close you are, how, how much you like each other, how... Friendship is about, it literally is about a differencie- a differentiation in the relationships, meaning that, you know, I'm closer to this person than to that person, and that's okay. I mean, one of the, it's sort of interesting because a lot of times we feel badly about that. But we don't, we just don't have enough time to be friends in the same way with everyone in the world, and it doesn't necessarily mean that we don't like th- the other people. It's just that we are, for whatever reason, we got drawn to the people we're, we're close to. Usually, it's things like similarity and proximity, you know, that play a part, and there's a chemistry to friendship just like there is to romance, you know? You get, there are people you meet and you think, "Oh, I really think I could be friends with her or him," you know, right from the start. And, uh, but it still takes time. You have to put in the hours. But so that same kind of liking that, that comes from, I mean, from anything. You find somebody fun- you have a similar sense of humor or you have a similar background and experience so you have a lot in common to talk about, or you've been through something similar. Like I, I happen, I'm noticing with coronavirus that there are, you know, there are people who were on the cruise ships together who have become good friends and they've been texting each other when they're in quarantine. So they've been through the same hard experience and then that, that helps you bond with people. So there's all different kinds of ways to become friends.

   7. CWChris Williamson11:12

      I've got a similar experience to that. I was on a show called Love Island in the UK-

   8. LDLydia Denworth11:17

      Yes.

   9. CWChris Williamson11:17

      ... which is a reality-

   10. LDLydia Denworth11:17

       Oh, you were on? I did not realize that. (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson11:19

       I was, I was indeed for my sins, Lydia.

   12. LDLydia Denworth11:22

       Okay. (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson11:22

       And that was, that was very similar, a traumatic experience where I was locked in a building with a bunch of other people and I couldn't escape.

   14. LDLydia Denworth11:28

       There you

9. 11:29 – 15:50

   love island

   1. LDLydia Denworth11:29

      go.

   2. CWChris Williamson11:29

      Um, the press were on us. You know, so I, I completely understand where they're coming from. Um, and, you know, interestingly from that, um, a lot of the people that were on the show, they're still bonded. You know, a bunch of them are out in Dubai together at the moment.

   3. LDLydia Denworth11:40

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson11:40

      It's a very unique experience that brings everyone together. One thing that I brought up the other day actually on a podcast with Morgan Housel, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this is-

   5. LDLydia Denworth11:49

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson11:50

      ... at the moment with the coronavirus outbreak, it is one of the very few things which happens globally. You know, it doesn't even rain everywhere in the world at the same time. It's not like-

   7. LDLydia Denworth12:01

      No, I know.

   8. CWChris Williamson12:02

      You know, your, th- the markets don't even open. The Chinese, Japanese markets don't open the same time as New York Stock Exchange, the same time as the German markets, and-... it, it, it is bizarre at the moment, seeing people pulling together against this common foe, in a little bit of a way. It's odd that you have something that's so universally, uh, felt.

   9. LDLydia Denworth12:24

      Yes, I agree completely. I was having the same thought today as I was reading about the restrictions in various countries and how, you know, how similar it's going to end up being. You know, everybody... Some countries are catching up to where others were, but I think we really are all... We are literally in the same boat, we are literally (laughs) on the same planet suffering from the same problem right now. And, and the, you know, the good thing here is that, in that... I mean, friendship, even though we need to keep our distance from each other, friendship really is fundamentally that, that reciprocal, cooperative part, is about a willingness to help-

   10. CWChris Williamson13:03

       Mm-hmm.

   11. LDLydia Denworth13:03

       ... in times of crisis, especially.

   12. CWChris Williamson13:05

       Mm-hmm.

   13. LDLydia Denworth13:05

       And so that is where we are, right? And we just have to think a little bit more creatively, all of us, about how to help, and, you know-

   14. CWChris Williamson13:12

       Yeah.

   15. LDLydia Denworth13:12

       ... how to do it, like I said, from a distance. But, but yes, we're, we're bonding over this shared, um, bizarre experience we're having.

   16. CWChris Williamson13:21

       Yeah, it's a great equalizer, you know? Uh, I think... I don't know much about people from China, you know? I don't know what side of the road they drive on. I don't know...

   17. LDLydia Denworth13:31

       (laughs)

   18. CWChris Williamson13:31

       If they said hello to me, I'd probably not know what word it was. You know, I'm so, so distant-

   19. LDLydia Denworth13:36

       (laughs)

   20. CWChris Williamson13:36

       ... from them, I don't have... They essentially could be a different species or from a different planet.

   21. LDLydia Denworth13:41

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CWChris Williamson13:41

       Um, but I know that their physiology is reacting to the COVID-19 outbreak the same way that mine is, the same way that my mom's is, their parents are the same as my parents, are the same as my... You know, da-da-da-da.

   23. LDLydia Denworth13:53

       Yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson13:53

       And, um, yeah, I w- I genuinely do wonder... Obviously, massive tragedy, I, I do not want this to happen. Given the choice between the world without it and the world with it, I would much sooner that it wasn't here. But trying to, you know, draw some silver linings from around this cloud is... I certainly feel more empathic towards people globally. And I'm, my empathy's crippling.

   25. LDLydia Denworth14:18

       Mm-hmm.

   26. CWChris Williamson14:18

       Like, I don't need any more of it. It weighs me down-

   27. LDLydia Denworth14:20

       (laughs)

   28. CWChris Williamson14:20

       ... on a daily basis, but I have even more now. Does that make sense?

   29. LDLydia Denworth14:24

       It does. I mean, I'm glad to hear you say that. Unfortunately, not everyone is the same, you know? Some people are having the opposite, more xenophobic response, and they're blaming the Chinese and things like that, uh, and that's just wrong. I mean, you know, viruses and bacteria don't discriminate, they travel (laughs) the world quite freely, and, you know, wherever they start doesn't, doesn't really matter as much as exactly what you're saying, that they affect us all the same. And, uh, and so yes, I, I do think, I mean, it's going to be really interesting to see w- You know, we're having this conversation somewhat at the beginning of this being such a global phenomenon. I mean, it's, it's been in China for a while, it's really heating up in the rest of the world. And so, I mean, I don't know about there in the UK, here in the US, every day some new restriction is announced. And I, and it does feel now like you can imagine what it... Before it was sort of a novelty to watch the people in China who were, you know, having to stay home and were quarantined, and now we're all saying, "Oh, I guess we better pay more attention to how they got through that."

   30. CWChris Williamson15:30

       "This is happening to me as well," yeah.
10. 15:50 – 18:50

    how many friends do you have

    1. LDLydia Denworth15:50

    2. CWChris Williamson15:50

       I get it. So, you said there about y- the big differences between having none and one friend.

    3. LDLydia Denworth15:55

       Mm-hmm.

    4. CWChris Williamson15:56

       There was a study that I heard cited a number of times last year or the year before, I think, where it said the most common answer, not the mean answer, but the most common answer-

    5. LDLydia Denworth16:07

       Mm-hmm.

    6. CWChris Williamson16:07

       ... to the question when asked of Americans was, "How many friends do you have that you could call on in a crisis?" And the most common answer was zero. Is that right? Did you look at this?

    7. LDLydia Denworth16:15

       No, that, that is not right. Um, there was-

    8. CWChris Williamson16:17

       Oh, fake news.

    9. LDLydia Denworth16:18

       (laughs)

    10. CWChris Williamson16:19

        Fake news.

    11. LDLydia Denworth16:20

        Fake news, right. There was, uh... Oh, it's a little complicated. Let's see. There was a study a, a ways back that, um, that seemed to say that, um, that there was a tripling in the number of people who said they didn't have any close people they could rely on, but it was never everybody saying that. And, and it turned out to be that there was some, there was some mix-up or some methodological problems with those studies. So, what, what you're referring to is a sort of long-running study in the US where one of the questions they ask is, "How many people have you discussed important matters within the last six months?" And if you say none, zero, then the assumption was that you don't have any close people to count on, right? But what happened... And it was only ever, like... So, usually the, the per- number of people who say that they have no one to count on or to discuss important matters with, and I, I specify that 'cause that is important how they ask the question, was s- in the single percentages, like 8% or 5%. But in this one study, it looked like it had jumped up to 24%. But then it turned out... So that, that, that's why you got all these headlines about a loneliness epidemic, and Americans are, you know, have no friends, and, um, friendless in America. So, the, but the, the truth is that while it is true that loneliness is a serious health problem and, and on some levels the numbers are growing because the demographics are growing, it's also true that that jump didn't really happen to that degree. So, it's still more around, um, under 10%, and one of the reasons just is, is that the studies, the way they asked the question changed, and the way, also the way people understood it changed, so it turned out that some people...... it wasn't that they had no one to discuss important matters with, it was that they had no important matters to discuss. (laughs) So-

    12. CWChris Williamson18:21

        Oh, the arrow of causation.

    13. LDLydia Denworth18:22

        ... during the period of time in question, the arrow of causation, right. So, so anyway, there, for a bunch of reasons, that, that is not quite right, but you're not alone in sort of grabbing hold of it and then thinking that that is what's going on. Um, but so, no. Americans, like everybody else, have, you know, an average of these smaller circles of close friends, and then larger groups of people that they're close to, uh, you know, to, to lesser degrees moving out in concentric circles.

11. 18:50 – 22:39

    Dunbars number

    1. CWChris Williamson18:50

       Got you. So, you talked about brain size earlier on, and the reason for having bigger brains potentially being that we have these complex social structures-

    2. LDLydia Denworth18:58

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson18:58

       ... we gotta understand how that John, John used to go out with Joanne. Joanne is the brother, the sister of this person, blah, blah.

    4. LDLydia Denworth19:05

       Right.

    5. CWChris Williamson19:05

       Um, is that where Dunbar's number comes from? Did you look into Dunbar's number?

    6. LDLydia Denworth19:09

       Yes. So, Dunbar's, uh, well, Dunbar's number is 150, and he, um, he is, uh, he claims that that is the kind of the number of people that we can have meaningful relationships with. But not that that's the number that we would consider close friends, because that's a much too big of a number, um, but that the number 150 shows up in a lot of ways in society. So, military units are often 150 people, and, um, some kind of, um, uh, some societies set up sort of, um, their settlements at about 150 people, and then they tend to break off and make a new one. There's a lot of reasons to think that that is a number that seems to make sense in h- in, for humans. Uh, but, but where that 150 actually comes from too, though, is that there's these series of concentric circles in the way Robin Dunbar does his, his work as well. Um, and yes, it's all based on the social brain hypothesis, which is that idea that the complexity of our social lives is dri- has been driving the size of our brains, and, um, and that we start though with maybe five people in the inner circle then it goes out in these, uh, exponentially, so five, 15, 50, 150, and actually even further out from that, I th- I think he says that 1,500 is about the extent of names that we can actually remember. (laughs)

    7. CWChris Williamson20:44

       Yeah.

    8. LDLydia Denworth20:44

       So, you could have meaningful relationships with 150, but you might know the names and faces of 1,500?

    9. CWChris Williamson20:50

       Be able to recognize a hu- 1,500, yeah.

    10. LDLydia Denworth20:52

        Right, exactly. So, um, but, but yes. There's, now, since Robin Dunbar made the social brain hypothesis famous, um, there's been more sort of conflict within the evolutionary biology world, and so it doesn't really, uh, we're gonna let them fight it out in the journals. (laughs) Let the scientists argue amongst themselves that what they're fighting about is whether it's the most important reason for the size of human brains. But what's relevant for people like you and me is that it doesn't have to be the most important thing, it can be a major contributor, right? It's a big part of why humans, uh, have the brains that we have, and it is definitely true that our, our societies are more complex than anybody el- any other species. And so, it makes sense that our brains had to evolve to, um, exactly as you said, to keep track of not just that, I can't remember what we said, Joe and Joanne, and, but then maybe I shouldn't hit on so-and-so (laughs) because-

    11. CWChris Williamson21:53

        Yeah.

    12. LDLydia Denworth21:53

        ... I'm friends with her ex, and yeah.

    13. CWChris Williamson21:54

        It's not simply good enough to be able to identify-

    14. LDLydia Denworth21:56

        It's no-

    15. CWChris Williamson21:56

        ... who they are, it's to understand their relative ranking and...

    16. LDLydia Denworth21:59

        The relationships between them, and the history, and the way people interact, and the emotions, and so we all have to have, you know, we all have, you were talking about empathy earlier. Empathy is complicated in your brain. And so, it requires all these circuits in your brain to understand what somebody else is thinking, that they have a perspective that might be different from yours, and that, um, and that they believe things that are different from what you believe, and that they don't see the world exactly the way you see it. And that is something that, that humans have sort of developed to a fine art, and it is fundamental to our friendships and our ability to in- to socialize.

12. 22:39 – 25:29

    All animals make friends

    1. LDLydia Denworth22:39

    2. CWChris Williamson22:39

       I get it. So, do all animals make friends? Or during the course of your research for the book, did you find, is there like the, the total introvert animal out there, like the introvert fish or something?

    3. LDLydia Denworth22:52

       (laughs) The, there are some animals who are more solitary, for sure, um, like some of the big cats tend to operate more on their own. Polar bears, male polar bears, uh, spend a lot of their time on their own. But a lot of animals are very, very social or they have, they have friendship or something like it, um, and in, so in primatology, where they study monkeys and apes, that's been, there's been really important work, I mean, that's one of the things I focus on in the book because that, that work has led to more of the breakthroughs in understanding the evolutionary function of friendship in humans. Um, and because monkeys and apes have, um, social behavior that looks a lot like ours, it's obviously not exactly the same, but there's plenty there. I mean, I, I spent time watching monkeys in Puerto Rico, and baboons in Africa, and I, uh, one of the scientists I talked to said, "If you spend a year watching the monkeys, you'll never look at humans the same way again." (laughs)

    4. CWChris Williamson23:55

       (laughs)

    5. LDLydia Denworth23:55

       And then, I think that's really true. I mean, you s- do really see things about the way they interact. And they're also, they have different personalities, just like we do. There are some that are kind of neurotic, and there's some that are bossy. There's some that are laid back, and some that are charming, and you know, and, uh, and then each of those is kind of a strategy for how they interact with the other animals in their, in their troops. Um-... the animals that are, the, the species that are more solitary, a lot of them still do have important bonds with each other though. So, it's interesting, like even, I don't know, there's, there's different, um, an- and I think a lot of scientists are just beginning to figure this stuff out or, and starting to study it in other species. But even fish have, like, social, they have stuff going on in their brains when they interact socially that looks surprisingly like what happens in human brains, obviously in a much s- simplified version. But, I mean, one of the things I cite in the book is the story of zebra fish who freeze when they come across, um, a group of unfamiliar fish, and then they relax when they can smell that they're with familiar fish, when they're with the fish that they normally hang out with. Um-

    6. CWChris Williamson25:11

       Mm-hmm.

    7. LDLydia Denworth25:11

       And in their brains, neuroscientists, believe it or not, can look inside the brain of a zebra fish, and they can see that there's some social a- there's some activity in the brain that looks a little bit like what happens when you and I either are hanging out with groups of people that we're familiar with or when we come across, you know, groups of strangers.

13. 25:29 – 27:55

    Men and women just to be friends

    1. LDLydia Denworth25:29

    2. CWChris Williamson25:29

       That's pretty cool.

    3. LDLydia Denworth25:31

       Yeah. (laughs)

    4. CWChris Williamson25:32

       I like it.

    5. LDLydia Denworth25:32

       I think so. Um-

    6. CWChris Williamson25:34

       Can men and women just be friends?

    7. LDLydia Denworth25:37

       (laughs) Yes. There is no biological reason why they cannot just be friends. I think that, I don't know, this is just a s- speculation on my part, but I feel like-

    8. CWChris Williamson25:47

       (laughs)

    9. LDLydia Denworth25:47

       ... culturally, you know, we've set it up to make it feel like that can't be true, um, that men and women can't be friends, but, but there are lots of examples of men and women who are friends, uh, and are only friends. And, uh, and of course, if there's sexual attraction, that adds something different and it can, it can complicate things. One of the things that's interesting, I mean, you asked me about what is friendship at the beginning, um, and what I didn't say, and the what we usually think of, is that the straightforward definition of friendship is that it's someone with whom you do not have sex (laughs) and to whom you are not related.

    10. CWChris Williamson26:26

        (laughs) Okay.

    11. LDLydia Denworth26:26

        Except-

    12. CWChris Williamson26:27

        Yeah.

    13. LDLydia Denworth26:27

        ... except that, you know, we have the phrase friends with benefits, right? Um-

    14. CWChris Williamson26:32

        Yep.

    15. LDLydia Denworth26:32

        ... and we also often, especially in Western countries, we like to imagine that our romantic partners are our best friends. We often say that. Um, it is interesting, because that is not universal. There is a study I cite in the book where they ask, um, people in Jacksonville, Florida, you know, "Do you think of your spouse as your best friend?" And something like 60% said yes. And then they asked the same question in Mexico City, and almost no one said yes.

    16. CWChris Williamson26:59

        Oh, shit.

    17. LDLydia Denworth26:59

        I think it's w- (laughs) but I don't-

    18. CWChris Williamson27:02

        Oh, shit. (laughs)

    19. LDLydia Denworth27:02

        Yeah, uh, exactly. But I don't think that has to do with the state of marriage in Mexico as much as with the habit of using the phrase, the word friend to describe your spouse. They think of them as two different things, right? So when West- when people who do like to use the word friend, um, are using it to describe a spouse or a sibling or somebody else like that, that they, with whom they have another kind of relationship, it's to add qualitatively to what you're trying to say. Like, if I tell you that my husband is my best friend, I say that because I want you to understand something about the strength of our relationship, right?

    20. CWChris Williamson27:40

        Mm-hmm.

    21. LDLydia Denworth27:40

        How positive it is. And it's... So there's some ways in which this science of friendship blurs the lines so that sex and whether you're related genetically matters less than what does the relationship actually look like.

14. 27:55 – 31:37

    Loneliness epidemic

    1. LDLydia Denworth27:55

    2. CWChris Williamson27:56

       I get it. The lines are-

    3. LDLydia Denworth27:57

       That- that-

    4. CWChris Williamson27:57

       ... blurred though, aren't they?

    5. LDLydia Denworth27:58

       The lines are a little blurred, right.

    6. CWChris Williamson27:59

       And I think as well, there's, because of the way that we adopt societal norms and then make them our own without realizing and then feed them back out and think that they were our own ideas. You know, this, this romantic version of your partner being your best friend to someone from Mexico sounds weird, but to, uh, perhaps an English literature student who's, uh, spent all of their, their time reading romance novels a- and, and, you know, Renaissance stuff at Oxford University, they have this unbelievably different view of what both romance and friendship are, and also how those, those two can mingle. That is, uh... yeah, I like that. Um, so I want to get onto the, the loneliness epidemic that we're-

    7. LDLydia Denworth28:43

       Yeah, yeah.

    8. CWChris Williamson28:44

       ... hearing about at the moment. What-

    9. LDLydia Denworth28:45

       Mm-hmm.

    10. CWChris Williamson28:45

        ... what did you look into regarding that?

    11. LDLydia Denworth28:48

        Well, here's the thing, is that loneliness is a public health problem. It truly is. Loneliness is bad for your health, just like friendship. I mean, it's two sides of the same coin. So social connection and friendship is really good for your health. It's as important for your health actually as diet and exercise, and loneliness is, is bad. Now, the, one of the important points here though is that when I say loneliness in this context, generally the definition that the social psychologists are using who were doing this work is that loneliness is the mich- mismatch between the amount of social connection you want and the amount you have, right? So if you're completely satisfied to be home watching Netflix all by yourself and, you know, um, then you may be fine. Although, a caveat is that I find that there's plenty of people who tell me how introverted they are and how much they don't want to socialize, but I think sometimes they're not being fully honest with themselves or with me or whoever about, um, what they feel they're missing. But it's definitely true that there are some people who are much more content to spend more time alone than others, and there are people who are very lonely in a crowd, and so both things are true, right? Both things are possible. So, so loneliness is about your perception of how isolated you are or how connected or disconnected you feel. And if you... the problem with loneliness is that it, it literally, now we understand that, um, it gets inside your body and your biology, and it can make you sick. And j- a- and so...... at first, everyone said, "Well, how is that possible?" Like a social relationship exists outside your body, right? It's over here. (laughs) It's like, you know, the food you eat, you can understand, "Okay, I'm eating this and it's getting into," you know, so I can understand why, you know, too much sugar might be bad for me and vegetables are good for my body and my health. Or when you go for a run, you're using your muscles, you're getting your heart rate going, so you can make the connection much more easily to why it would have an effect on your heart and your blood pressure. But it turns out that loneliness, on the one hand, or social connection on the other affect your cardiovascular functioning, so your heart and your blood pressure. They affect your immune system and how resilient you are to inflammation and viruses. Time, timely, the fact that we're talking about viruses today. Um, it affects your cognitive health, your mental health, it affects your stress responses, and it even affects the rate at which your cells age. So-

    12. CWChris Williamson31:21

        Wow.

    13. LDLydia Denworth31:21

        ... there's, there's a little cap on your cells called a telomere and it shortens over time, and it shortens faster in people who are lonelier. And that means that they are biologically aging faster. It's like a little clock inside your body.

15. 31:37 – 38:22

    How do I know if Im lonely

    1. LDLydia Denworth31:37

    2. CWChris Williamson31:37

       That's serious. The implications are really big. How, how do I know if I'm lonely then? I can kid myself into believing that I am or I'm not sometimes. How can I check if I'm lonely?

    3. LDLydia Denworth31:46

       Well, I mean, I think you have to, you ha- most people who are lonely, uh, do admit that they're lonely, um, so, and it's, I think that loneliness, and this is not just me saying this, I mean, it's something where some of the researchers said this, that loneliness is your body's signal that you need to connect, just like thirst and hunger are a signal that you need to eat or drink. Um, and so if you're feeling it, you should take that as, you should take that seriously. You should take that as a warning. Of course, the problem is that a lot of lonely people say, "Well, but I'm lonely but I can't, you know, what, what am I supposed to do about it because I have no one to hang out with." And, um, and unfortunately one of the things that happens is that when we're lonely, we feel psychologically threatened. It's a little bit like being the animal on the outside of the herd, right? Um, and sometimes the first thing to go are your social skills, actually. Uh, so that is unfortunate because it means that the people who most need social connection are then least able to achieve it because-

    4. CWChris Williamson32:49

       It's like a vicious spiral.

    5. LDLydia Denworth32:51

       It's a vicious spiral, right. But what I hope is that recognizing that and knowing that even can, can sort of help people be aware of why they're behaving the way they're behaving. Also to sort of say, first of all to say you need to get out there and connect if you possibly can. And secondly, have a look at how you're behaving when you're doing it and what kind of response you're getting from people. Um, and, but, you know, I mean, the ways to connect are not, are not, um, it's not complicated. It's usually things like shared interests. So let's say people all, you know, you live somewhere where everybody likes to go hiking and you love to go hiking. There's probably a club you can join, right? But, um, or, uh, I was just talking with people in Las Vegas for a radio show, and it turns out that Las Vegas is, um, famously unfriendly. (laughs)

    6. CWChris Williamson33:46

       Yeah.

    7. LDLydia Denworth33:46

       So they were having a, you know, it's a, it's a city where people, there's very transient. A lot of people move in and then leave and, you know, and so people, some people find it very hard to make friends. Um, but they were telling me that there was a whole group of people who were very passionate about craft beers, you know, so-

    8. CWChris Williamson34:05

       Okay, yeah.

    9. LDLydia Denworth34:05

       ... brewing, right?

    10. CWChris Williamson34:07

        Beers, did they all, all have beards?

    11. LDLydia Denworth34:09

        And, and-

    12. CWChris Williamson34:09

        They all had beards?

    13. LDLydia Denworth34:09

        No, beers, like, like to drink-

    14. CWChris Williamson34:10

        No, but did they all have beards?

    15. LDLydia Denworth34:11

        Oh, did they all have beards? Yes.

    16. CWChris Williamson34:13

        Yeah.

    17. LDLydia Denworth34:13

        I have no idea. (laughs)

    18. CWChris Williamson34:14

        I bet they did.

    19. LDLydia Denworth34:14

        I don't know. I didn't see pictures-

    20. CWChris Williamson34:15

        I bet they did, Lydia.

    21. LDLydia Denworth34:15

        ... but maybe they did. Maybe they did. Maybe they did. Um, but so they had this whole, um, set of social things that they set up around craft beer, and so the people who were interested in that had these things they could join in and go to these events all about craft beer. So I mean, that, that example amused me, but, you know, it can apply all kinds of ways, right? And so I do think one of the things that happens is that when we're adults, we often feel like it's harder to make friends, because it is, compared to when we were younger and we were just sort of together with people our same age all the time in this easy way and you just had more opportunity to build those relationships. So as an adult, it's sort of you have to go out and do it, you have to be motivated to do it, you have to make yourself vulnerable sometimes, right? You have to put your, like, go to the event full of-

    22. CWChris Williamson35:05

        Mm-hmm.

    23. LDLydia Denworth35:05

        ... people you don't know in hopes of meeting someone you might like and be friends with. Um, and nowadays, apparently there are apps to help people not to date, but to find friends. Like they're specifically not meant for romance, they're meant for friendship. And, um-

    24. CWChris Williamson35:20

        That's cool.

    25. LDLydia Denworth35:20

        ... I think that's really interesting. It's a sign of the times that that's, you know, that that's where we're going, but it also tells you that this is something people really want and need and are looking for.

    26. CWChris Williamson35:30

        I, I think that's a really, really cool idea. I remember hearing about it a while ago. Um, I was reading Mark Manson's Models, uh, which is a book about dating for men quite a while ago, and in that he talks about what is the sort of woman that you want to date? What would be-

    27. LDLydia Denworth35:47

        Mm-hmm.

    28. CWChris Williamson35:47

        ... her characteristics? And you'd say, "Well, uh, that she has to go to the gym and she really needs to be into reading and I, I, I'd love a girl who does X, Y, and Z. Pick your characteristics." And he's like, "Well, that is where you go to find the person you want to date. Do those things." You know?

    29. LDLydia Denworth36:05

        Uh-huh.

    30. CWChris Williamson36:05

        Go, go to the... You want a, a girl-
16. 38:22 – 42:55

    How often should I see my friends

    1. LDLydia Denworth38:22

    2. CWChris Williamson38:22

       Being intentional with your friendships, I- I really like. I think that's a- a good-

    3. LDLydia Denworth38:26

       Mm-hmm.

    4. CWChris Williamson38:26

       ... way to go about it. So, how- how often do I need to see my friends, and how can I have better friendships?

    5. LDLydia Denworth38:32

       Well, how often you need to see your friends is going to vary a bit according... You know, we were talking earlier about the introverts who like to spend time on the couch. Um, and so, it's not that there's any one... It's not that there's any sort of set amount of time. What there is is your own sense of, um, your kind of internal thermostat (laughs) I guess we could say. You know, I said earlier that loneliness is the mismatch between the amount of connection you have and the amount that you want, and if you find yourself sitting at home by yourself, uh, feeling lonely, then you're- then y- that should be a sign that you're not getting enough, um, time with your friends. And, um, the... But the way you go about being a good friend is kind of an echo of the definitions of friendship I gave earlier. So, if being a good friend... If- if a friendship is positive and involves making each other feel good, then you should be working to make your friends feel good. You should be trying to acknowledge every so often that you care about them, or what, you know, what... If they do something nice for you, you should be appreciative. And the reciprocal cooperative part, it's really, really important not to just always be on the taking side of that, right? And I think sometimes we don't realize, um... We're not paying attention. And I'm not trying to say that it should be a very, uh... There's not an accounting, a tit-for-tat here.

    6. CWChris Williamson40:03

       Perspective. Yeah.

    7. LDLydia Denworth40:04

       Right? It doesn't have to be like that. In the grand scheme of things, it should even out, right? So, sometimes one person needs more help than the other, and that's fine. Um, but what happens over time is that if one person is always kind of the needy one and does all the talking, never listens, the other person is going to find that draining (laughs) in time, right? So, you really wanna make sure that- that you are showing up for your friends. You're noticing what's going on in their lives, and you're responding, and you're commenting, even if there's nothing you can do about it. Just saying, "Wow," that, you know, "I realize this must be hard," or something like that means a lot to people, and people really just want someone to listen. And we're... So often, we're busy waiting for our chance to talk about ourselves (laughs) , right? And not really listening. So, um, and I really, I said it- I said it in passing there, but I just think showing up in every sense of the phrase is one of the most important things you can do for your friend, whether it means showing up for, like, a birthday party, or the flip side, like, I mean, when my father died, and I had friends show up from all around the world. My friends, not just his friends, but my friends. That was so meaningful to me, right? And, uh... Or you show up right now. People are self-isolating because of coronavirus, or, you know, you show up by text or email, or you call, or you, you know. Um, and you set up ways to connect with people, and- and some... In this moment, I mean, now this level of disruption is getting so severe that there's gonna be almost no one who's not badly affected, but some people are more affected than others. I mean, I'm supposed to be there in London right now. You know, my book's coming out (laughs) this week, and I'm not. I'm in Central New York, and... But, uh, like for instance, I have a son who, um, just had the rest of his senior year of college canceled, which is harder than having your sophomore year canceled.

    8. CWChris Williamson42:05

       Yeah.

    9. LDLydia Denworth42:05

       Because seniors are... This was the end of their time in college. So, the point is just that, you know, some people are much more affected than others, and it's important to at least notice and to acknowledge that. If you know somebody who's in an hourly job that where they really couldn't afford, you know, t- uh, this... I don't know. There's a lot- lot of people who are really gonna suffer more than some other people, and so I... My- my own sense of it for- it for me is, you know, like, I'm aware of my own disappointments and the disruption that this is causing me, but I also recognize that...... it's so much worse for so many other people, right? And so you a- always have to have that perspective. I mean, that's just kind of a- an analogy for how to be a good friend in general, is to notice what's going on with other people and to k- keep your own life

17. 42:55 – 44:47

    Friendship hacks

    1. LDLydia Denworth42:55

       in perspective.

    2. CWChris Williamson42:56

       Yeah. I've got a couple of, um, a couple of friendship hacks that I've kind of-

    3. LDLydia Denworth43:00

       (laughs)

    4. CWChris Williamson43:00

       ... come up with over the last few years.

    5. LDLydia Denworth43:01

       Yeah? Oh, let's hear 'em. (laughs)

    6. CWChris Williamson43:02

       So one of them is actually a reflection upon doing the podcast, and I found-

    7. LDLydia Denworth43:07

       Mm-hmm.

    8. CWChris Williamson43:07

       ... that having a deep conversation with someone uninterrupted, focused on a topic where we both hold ourselves, uh, hold each other, um, to a high level of, I guess, intellectual rigor or at least precision with what we say, um-

    9. LDLydia Denworth43:21

       Mm-hmm.

    10. CWChris Williamson43:21

        ... I felt like that was, um, a type of food, like a type of nutrition that I'd never had. I realized just how much I was missing it when I started to do it.

    11. LDLydia Denworth43:30

        Yeah.

    12. CWChris Williamson43:30

        And then, you know-

    13. LDLydia Denworth43:30

        Mm-hmm.

    14. CWChris Williamson43:31

        ... it's now two episodes a week. It was one episode a week, now it's two episodes a week. Now the episodes are a little bit longer and blah, blah, blah. And I, honestly, the, I can't think of anyone for whom they wouldn't enjoy it. So I've said one of the life hacks that we came up with a couple of, uh, months ago was once a week, schedule half an hour with someone that you know to sit down and have a conversation about something that you care about. You know-

    15. LDLydia Denworth43:52

        Mm-hmm.

    16. CWChris Williamson43:52

        ... just sit down, phones left outside of the room, focus on what it is that you want to talk about.

    17. LDLydia Denworth43:56

        Mm-hmm.

    18. CWChris Williamson43:56

        Um, another one of the ones that I came up with was whenever you think about one of your friends, you, I- I'm thinking about my buddy from school or cricket or-

    19. LDLydia Denworth44:06

        Mm-hmm.

    20. CWChris Williamson44:06

        ... the gym or whatever it is, text them. Text them and tell them, "Hey man, thinking of you. Hey dude, thinking of you."

    21. LDLydia Denworth44:11

        Yeah.

    22. CWChris Williamson44:11

        Whatever it might be. You know, like those little things, and it's made such a difference with some of the- the depth of the friendships that I've got as well, um, and y- y- it's what you said before, it's people being aware that you're there, people seeing you, feeling wanted, feeling like you're a part of something, you know? Between those two things, telling people when you miss them... Oh, there's a third one as well, so it's called gas your friends up, and it basically means-

    23. LDLydia Denworth44:31

        Mm-hmm.

    24. CWChris Williamson44:31

        ... when you see someone doing something good, like you- you give them, you kind of go a little bit a- all in on the compliments, "Man, that's so good, thank you so much."

    25. LDLydia Denworth44:40

        And they- great. Oh, beautiful. That's that making, that's the positive part. That's making them feel appreciated. I love it.

    26. CWChris Williamson44:45

        Yeah.

    27. LDLydia Denworth44:45

        That's great. Yes.

    28. CWChris Williamson44:45

        So there's- there's- there's three things,

18. 44:47 – 48:24

    Digital friendships

    1. CWChris Williamson44:47

       and you know, maybe-

    2. LDLydia Denworth44:47

       Yes.

    3. CWChris Williamson44:48

       ... maybe someone that's listening can apply that to- to their life. So I wanted to finish up with talking about digital friendships and how they compare-

    4. LDLydia Denworth44:54

       Yes.

    5. CWChris Williamson44:54

       ... to real life friendships, 'cause I think that's important, you know? Cal Newport has this beautiful bit, um, in Digital Minimalism, where he talks about the difference between time on your own and solitude-

    6. LDLydia Denworth45:05

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson45:05

       ... because people in solitude often will still have the input of other minds, and he defines solitude, pure solitude, as time away from the input of others.

    8. LDLydia Denworth45:16

       Mm-hmm.

    9. CWChris Williamson45:16

       Which means you don't have your phone.

    10. LDLydia Denworth45:18

        Okay.

    11. CWChris Williamson45:18

        You don't have your laptop. You're not at the mercy-

    12. LDLydia Denworth45:20

        Mm-hmm.

    13. CWChris Williamson45:21

        ... of email and WhatsApp and-

    14. LDLydia Denworth45:22

        Mm-hmm.

    15. CWChris Williamson45:22

        ... Skype and blah blah. Um, s- so t- how do digital friendships map onto real friendships? Can I, can I be on lockdown for the next four months and never see someone and just Skype everyone and is that gonna make me feel fine or...

    16. LDLydia Denworth45:37

        Well, so these are unusual times (laughs) for this. So my first answer is before coronavirus, was that on the one hand, it turns out that there's a raft of new research showing that social media and digital technology is not as harmful for friendship and relationships as people think. Um, it is d- it is true that having your phone in f- up and in fr- in between you and someone when you're together in real life is terrible, and we need to drop our ph- we need to put our phones down and we need to focus on the people in front of us. Um, but it's al- also true that if you use social media as just one extra channel with which to communicate with someone that you see in other ways, it strengthens that bond that you have. And it's also true that people with bigger online networks tend to have bigger offline networks. So there's this mirroring of our online and offline lives that not everybody is always acknowledging. So most people who have, like you do, thousands of Facebook friends don't just have one friend that they see in their p- private life offline. Um, the- the issue with social media generally has been, and it- it's looking more and more like people for whom it- it increases depression or anxiety and even loneliness may already be suffering from those things offline. And so the question of that- that causation and which way the direction is going is a little bit of a, is up in the air now. You know, a lot of people thought that social media was the culprit, but it now seems that for the population at large, that's not so true. Um, what's happening is that the science is getting better and sharper and more rigorous, but there are still a lot of questions to be answered. All that said, in this time of social distancing and coronavirus, we have to embrace digital friendship because it's what we've got. You know, it's- it's the- the way that we can get through this and, um, and it is definitely true that while it's different for you and me to be talking this way on a screen instead of in real life, you know, i- real life con- eye contact, for instance, s- it- it gets your social brain going. It triggers all the communication parts in your brain in a way that even a video chat like this cannot do. Um, but- but video chat is a whole lot better than nothing (laughs) and it's really good to see people's faces and not just to be texting them or to, you know. So if- if a video conference through Zoom with your friends is what you can do while everybody's being isolated for the next couple of months, then that's absolutely what you should be do- you should be doing and we're really, really fortunate that we have this technology to help us get through this time.

    17. CWChris Williamson48:23

        Yeah.

19. 48:24 – 51:17

    Conclusion

    1. CWChris Williamson48:24

       I- it's the add-on, it's the dressing on the salad rather than the salad itself with social media right now.

    2. LDLydia Denworth48:30

       Yeah. I mean-

    3. CWChris Williamson48:31

       And I, I hope-

    4. LDLydia Denworth48:32

       ... and I think... Yeah. No, go ahead. You say-

    5. CWChris Williamson48:34

       I just hope once we reintegrate after the coronavirus that it doesn't cause people too...... to adopt this new world of friendship as how they're going to proceed moving forward? You know what I mean?

    6. LDLydia Denworth48:53

       Yeah, uh, I hear you. I, I don't know. I'm not afraid of that because I really feel that into my research, it became so clear how much we value and protect our close relationships, and that we, we evolve according to, you know, the r- the environment and our experience. Um, but we're always working to protect those relationships, and there's a core of them that always are going to involve in real life activity, face-to-face contact, and, uh, that hasn't changed. That is still true today. Even though we have these different social lives on- online, uh, we still know who our good friends are, we still spend time with them offline-

    7. CWChris Williamson49:34

       Mm-hmm.

    8. LDLydia Denworth49:34

       ... and I think we will return to each other exuberantly, hugging each other, high-fiving-

    9. CWChris Williamson49:41

       Yeah.

    10. LDLydia Denworth49:41

        ... and having massive parties to celebrate (laughs) when we can be together in person again.

    11. CWChris Williamson49:46

        I think, I think that you're right. Uh, Lydia, thank you for today. Friendship, your book, is it out now?

    12. LDLydia Denworth49:50

        Thank you.

    13. CWChris Williamson49:50

        Can people be buying them right now?

    14. LDLydia Denworth49:52

        It, uh, yes, they can order it. It's out, uh, uh, it's out on the 19th of March in the UK.

    15. CWChris Williamson49:58

        Wow.

    16. LDLydia Denworth49:58

        But you could pre-order it right now. Uh, I don't know when this is going, uh-

    17. CWChris Williamson50:01

        This very well may go up on the 19th.

    18. LDLydia Denworth50:03

        ... is this live.

    19. CWChris Williamson50:04

        So if it's not, the link to pre-order-

    20. LDLydia Denworth50:05

        Okay.

    21. CWChris Williamson50:05

        ... will be in the show notes below. If it's out, the link to order-

    22. LDLydia Denworth50:08

        Yes.

    23. CWChris Williamson50:08

        ... will be in the show notes below. If people want to find you online, where should they go, Lydia?

    24. LDLydia Denworth50:13

        LydiaDennworth.com, you can find everything else as that's my website. I'm on Twitter @LydiaDennworth, I'm on Facebook at Science Writer Lydia. I'm, I'm everywhere. But you can find all those things. My lo- website leads to everything. Leads to my books, leads to my social media, my newsletter, etc., etc. So-

    25. CWChris Williamson50:32

        I love it. Hopefully, we've, uh, encouraged people to rekindle some friendships and, and also perhaps given them some, uh, some ideas of how they can continue to stay connected-

    26. LDLydia Denworth50:40

        I hope so.

    27. CWChris Williamson50:40

        ... obviously we're gonna be distanced.

    28. LDLydia Denworth50:41

        I hope so.

    29. CWChris Williamson50:42

        Yeah.

    30. LDLydia Denworth50:42

        And I hope that this gives per- people permission to think about friendship as a priority. Instead of making it feel like something you have to do, I feel like it's something you get to do, (laughs) right? Like-

Episode duration: 51:17