Understanding Stress, Willpower & Discipline - Dr Andrew Huberman (4K)

Chris Williamson 0:00 What were you just teaching me about mouth breathing and how it changes the shape of the face?

Andrew Huberman 0:06 Yeah. So I arrived carrying a copy of the book, Jaws: A Hidden Epidemic. This is not Jaws the shark. Uh, this book was written by my colleagues at Stanford, Sandra Khan and Paul Ehrlich. And it has an introduction by Jared Diamond, who won a Pulitzer for Guns, Germs, and Steel, and a forward by the great Robert Sapolsky, also a colleague of mine at Stanford. So four heavy hitters on this book, just to credential it first. Um, this book centers around a couple of core concepts, but the first being that people, and in particular children, who overuse mouth breathing as opposed to nasal breathing have changes in the structure of the face that, well, to be quite direct, makes them far more unattractive than if they were to mouth breathe. It also discusses the chewing of foods as essential to mouth and face development. Sandra Khan is an expert in craniofacial function and structure, um, and the fact that if your parents and you did things right, you should be able to place your en- your entire tongue on the roof of your mouth with your mouth closed. Now, I can't do that. Okay? So when you, with teeth closed-

Chris Williamson 1:24 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:24 ... tongue on the roof of your mouth, I can, but I still feel the back of my teeth a bit. Um, so I, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:30 Okay, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:30 Um, but the, so that's the second point, that we want to chew har- ch- chewing foods is essential to tooth and mouth and face development. Um, these days, many children slurp their food. Uh, many adults slurp their foods. Um, many adults are eating like babies, and of course, babies before they develop their mature teeth, and even when they h- before they get all of their teeth in need to obviously breast milk and, um, you know, pudding like foods. Okay. But so that's the second point. So nasal breathing, good, mouth breathing, bad for craniofacial development. Chewing hard foods, chewing a lot on both sides of the mouth, great for craniofacial development, oral development, tooth development, and tooth health, which by the way are correlated with a number of other things like cardiovascular health and metabolic health. Ver- very interesting links there. And then the third point is that, uh, the, the book argues that the entire field of orthodontia, things like, um, braces, things like headgear, things like retainers, are the byproduct of poor, um, breathing and let's just say, uh, overconsumption of soft foods in place of hard foods, uh, behavior. And so there's this guy who's from your side of the pond, uh, Mu-

Chris Williamson 2:47 I like him already.

Andrew Huberman 2:48 ... he talks about the Mu method, um, of restoring normal craniofacial development. The book is chock-a-block full of impressive photos of before and afters, impressive because in some cases you'll see kids that were, um, mouth breathers or were eating a lot of soft foods and then they recovered their behavior, so to speak, and became nose breathers. Of course, we have to mouth breathe when we're exercising really hard.

Chris Williamson 3:10 Mm.

Andrew Huberman 3:10 Or when we're eating or speaking, we're gonna mouth breathe. But at rest we should nasal breathe is the argument, and that greatly improves craniofacial, um, aesthetics. And the good news is this stuff is modifiable across the lifespan. And, um, and so the book isn't arguing for anyone to purchase anything. You don't need a Jawserlicer. I'm saying that explicitly because they took clips of me talking about this and, and pr- and productized it, and I had nothing to do with that. So hopefully you'll keep this in the episode. And they even admitted they were breaking the law and he said, "We don't care. We're gonna continue to do it." So, um-

Chris Williamson 3:42 Sales are sales, man.

Andrew Huberman 3:43 Yeah. But no, those, those, you know, to, to the credit of, of, um, products for, um, uh, exercising the jaw, sure, there are muscles of the jaw that can-

Chris Williamson 3:52 Well, what you're talking about is-

Andrew Huberman 3:52 ... uh, change the aesthetic but-

Chris Williamson 3:53 ... eat tough-

Andrew Huberman 3:53 ... using food to do that.

Chris Williamson 3:55 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 3:55 Right.

Chris Williamson 3:55 Eat tough food is-

Andrew Huberman 3:56 Right.

Chris Williamson 3:56 If you don't have a sufficiently tough diet-

Andrew Huberman 3:59 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 3:59 ... I guess you could replace it. But it's, explain to me the mechanics of how-

Andrew Huberman 4:04 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 4:04 ... the difference in whether you breathe through your nose or breathe through your mouth changes the shape of your face and head.

Andrew Huberman 4:10 Yeah. Well, and it goes beyond that. If you breathe through your mouth as opposed to your nose, the, first of all, you bring in less oxygen than you would if, so you're, you're limiting, you're es- effectively putting yourself into a state of apnea, right? Which is bad during sleep. And guess what? It's bad during waking states also. Uh, you're getting less oxygen to your brain, bad. The sinuses, you know, we hear our, my sinuses are clogged or my sinu- the sinuses... Wish I had brought a skull with, with me 'cause one of the most impressive things about a skull, human skull being no exception, is that the sinuses are literally these little, uh, tubes or channels through which fluid and air can move. And the sinuses, even though they are essentially the, created by the fissures between different bones, so like there, there's two, two or three different bones that are interdigitated and create these tunnels. They're actually fairly plastic in the sense that they can be modified in terms of their shape and, and so people will say, "Well, I have a deviated septum." Guess what? You should em- try and emphasize breathing through both nostrils as a, uh, in order to, uh, undeviate your septum. Now, if someone has a broken nose or something that's really structurally abnormal, they may need corrective surgery. But purely through na- deliberate nasal breathing, so it could be mouth taping at night, but also just deliberately nasal breathing during most of your cardiovascular training unless you need to really, you know, hit the gas, in which case you mouth breathe, is going to help dilate the sinuses and lead to better airflow, which makes nasal breathing easier. The other thing is that nasal breathing we know, um, well, first of all, there's a nasal microbiome. There's also an oral microbiome, but that nasal microbiome is particularly well-suited to, um, scrub or, uh, capture and destroy viruses, bacteria, and even some fungal infections. So in other words, when you're breathing in through your mouth, you're more susceptible to infections.

Chris Williamson 5:53 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 5:53 This is important heading into winter as well.

Chris Williamson 5:55 Mm.

Andrew Huberman 5:56 Um, so there are a number of, I mean, we could talk about this for hours, but, uh, the point is nasal breathe when you can. Um, kids especially but a- adults as well, chewing foods that require, you know, eating foods that require some chewing and really working at it and chewing away-Um, they have some impressive images in this, uh, book of kids that were twins that were raised separately. One by a group that eats a lot of, um, l- let's just say tougher foods that require chewing, versus one that's slurping their food. And I mean, one kid is literally incredibly attractive, perfect dentiture with no orthodontia or den- or, you know, regular dentistry. And the other kid is, teeth is like snaggled.

Chris Williamson 6:29 Wow.

Andrew Huberman 6:30 They have the horse, or like the horsey smile. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 6:32 Even though they've got the same genetic predisposition.

Andrew Huberman 6:34 Right, right. It's not a perfect experiment because there are other factors as well.

Chris Williamson 6:37 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 6:37 And, you know, none of this is, um, the c- uh, for better or worse, none of this is really amenable to kind of in laboratory type stuff. Um, so as these are naturally occurring experiments, as we say. Um, there are also some very impressive images in the book, or we could say depressing, of kids that were pretty attractive as kids, and then there, there's an example of a kid who got a pet hamster. He was allergic to the hamster. He switch- as a consequence, he becomes a mouth breather. And then that the characteristic, um, change in the face when one overdoes mouth breathing is that the chin start to move back-

Chris Williamson 7:09 It recesses, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 7:10 ... toward the, um, toward the neck, and the- the rest of the face goes out, but also the eyes become droopy. Um, and th- but as you say, "Why would the eyes be affected?" It's not just musculature. What's happening is there's, um, less use of literally the- the sinuses in the upper, uh, towards the upper mandible and up towards the eyes, because as, if you've ever had a sinus infection, it's painful up here in your forehead and around the eyes. So again, it's pretty straightforward. No products required. Chew y- chew your food well, chew on both sides of your mouth, um, especially if you're a young person, but even if you're not, um, be a nasal breather, really chew at your food, try and, uh, this probably also has benefits in terms of limiting, um, uh- unessential or low- low nutrient density calories. You know, slurping your food all the time. I mean, I love a good gr-

Chris Williamson 7:54 Don't drink your calories, man.

Andrew Huberman 7:55 Yeah, I love a good Greek yogurt, you know, but, um, but drinking an excess of calories is probably not good. And- and eat like an adult. I always say-

Chris Williamson 8:03 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 8:03 ... you know, one of the things is, I- I don't know, like to me, growing up, snack food was something that kids, um, indulged in.

Chris Williamson 8:09 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 8:09 You know, on- once- once you hit 18 or so, you know, eat like an adult. Like n-

Chris Williamson 8:13 I'm still wait-

Andrew Huberman 8:14 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 8:14 ... I'm still waiting to- to learn that lesson. You

Chris Williamson 8:16 mentioned Sapolsky, that I had him on the show recently.

Andrew Huberman 8:18 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 8:19 What do you think most people misunderstand about stress? Obviously, he's contributed an awful lot to this. I know you've thought about this too.

Andrew Huberman 8:26 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 8:27 What do you think people don't understand fully about stress?

Andrew Huberman 8:29 Yeah, the findings that I think are overlooked tremendously are the- the following experiment. Um, there's an experiment in animals where a rat is given the opportunity to run on a treadmill, and rats and- and rodents of all kind love, kinds love running on treadmills. You know, they're these interesting, um, s- we'll see who catches this fly first.

Chris Williamson 8:46 Yeah, I'm- I'm ready, man.

Andrew Huberman 8:47 Um, yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 8:48 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 8:48 The, uh, I think, um, you know, there's even a study from Hoppy Hofstra's lab at- at Harvard that showed that if you put wheels, running wheels in fields, that rodents will run there in the middle of the night and run on them. That's how insanely, uh, obsessed with running, um, rodents are.

Chris Williamson 9:03 They're just energetic, they want to go.

Andrew Huberman 9:04 There's something rewarding about it for them. But in any event, it lowers their blood pressure, it leads to incr- improvements in a number of metrics that you expect. And you see the same thing in humans, right, who run on a treadmill or run outdoors or swim, cardiovascular exercise. Okay, well, um, Sapolsky, um, and I love to talk about a- an experiment where they took two different cages with animals. One is running voluntarily, but then that running wheel is tethered to a running wheel in another cage that encloses an animal, forces it to run every time the other one runs. So, forced exercise versus voluntary exercise. And the takeaway is very straightforward. Voluntary exercise leads to all sorts of improvements in health metrics, resting heart rate, blood pressure, blood glu- glucose (laughs) , um, resting blood glucose, et cetera, waking blood glucose. Um, the animal that's forced to exercise, you see the opposite, right? So it's not exercise per se, it's something about being forced to exercise is, uh, causes, um, decrements in a number of health metrics. And you see the same thing in humans. So what's wild is my colleague, Dr. Alia Crum, Department of Psychology at Stanford, um, has done these beautiful experiments on mindset and belief. These are not placebo effects. And what she's shown (laughs) in- in a just absolutely spectacular way is that if people watch a short video about all the ways in which stress can really diminish your health, well then indeed, stress diminishes their health. Whereas if a separate group watches an- a factual, also five minute, also factual tutorial on all the ways that stress can enhance performance by harnessing your ability to focus, memory formation, et cetera-

Chris Williamson 10:40 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 10:40 ... all of which is true, that- that's indeed what you see.

Chris Williamson 10:43 Can I give you my favorite one that I learned about over the last year?

Andrew Huberman 10:45 Yes.

Chris Williamson 10:46 So, the Boston Marathon bombing, uh, 2012, abo- about 10 years ago, 2016 maybe. Anyway, uh, Boston Marathon bombing, a study was done comparing people who had been at the actual marathon while the bomb had gone off and people who had watched 90 minutes or more of news coverage about it. And the people who watched 90 minutes or more of news coverage about it showed a greater stress response than the people who'd literally lived through it.

Andrew Huberman 11:14 Interesting, interesting. Yeah, the- the, um, the- the mindset and belief effects are- are absolutely extraordinary and- and very real, right? I mean, I think, you know, um, recently I've been reading and researching a lot about and did a podcast on tenacity and willpower.

Chris Williamson 11:33 Mm.

Andrew Huberman 11:33 And, um, there was this idea early on from Baumeister and colleagues that willpower is a limited resource. Some of the-

Chris Williamson 11:39 E- ego depletion, willpower?

Andrew Huberman 11:41 Ego depletion.

Chris Williamson 11:41 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 11:42 Um, it was controversial. Um, they showed that, you know, replenishing glucose in between hard tasks could restore willpower.

Chris Williamson 11:48 They showed that, uh, uh, was it juries or judges that were low in blood glucose were more likely to give harsher sentences, stuff like this.

Andrew Huberman 11:55 Yeah, it did. It sort of wicked out to a number of naturalistic situations, and it made good sense, and then my colleague Carol Dweck, also in the psychology department at Stanford, um, most famously known for her work on mind- growth mindset, did an experiment in which they, um, essentially asked whether or not-... tenacity and willpower are limited in terms of being a- some sort of resource, and also whether or not it was somehow linked to glucose availability, fuel, uh, in the brain and body, and found that if people thought or were told that min- that, uh, excuse me, willpower was a limited resource, that's indeed what they observed experimentally. But that if they were taught or were told that willpower is unlimited, and, and divorced from glucose levels, well then, that's exactly what you saw. So-

Chris Williamson 12:42 So you're saying, you're saying that learning about ego depletion and believing that willpower is a limited resource is an information hazard that is self-fulfilling.

Andrew Huberman 12:51 Uh, potentially.

Chris Williamson 12:51 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 12:52 Now, now, now, now Baumeister, you know, showed, um, himself to be, you know, pretty determined-

Chris Williamson 12:58 (laughs) .

Andrew Huberman 12:58 ... um, when encountered the, the, uh, the Dweck counter by showing that if, indeed, if there's a hard task followed by a hard task, then your beliefs about willpower, um, can impact your performance on the second task.

Chris Williamson 13:12 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 13:12 So Dwe- AKA, Dweck is right. But that if you have a hard task, hard task, and then another hard task, so back to back to back tasks or more, which is a lot of what life is like, well, then it seems that the w- that the willpower is a limited resource, and glucose-supporting wil- willpower theory holds up a bit better.

Chris Williamson 13:31 What have you come to believe about the difference between willpower and motivation and discipline? How, how do kind of all of these fit together in your mind?

Andrew Huberman 13:39 Yeah, so willpower and tenacity, um, are related to motivation, but they're not quite the same. I think we should think of, uh, motivation as a, um, as the verb state that moves us from, um, let's just say apathy to tenacity. Okay? So it's, it's sort- it's the verb function that moves us along that continuum. Ap- apathy at one end, uh, tenacity and willpower, uh, strong, um, exertion of willpower at the other end. Um, one of the most interesting structures in the entire nervous system is one that gets very little coverage, unfortunately. Um, in fact, most neuroscientists aren't aware of what its function is, and it's called the AMCC, which is the anterior mid-cingulate cortex. You have one on each side of the brain. The name isn't really important, but we want to, you know, to, to the credit of the, of the structure, we should, uh, name it the AMCC. The AMCC receives inputs from a lot of interesting brain areas related to reward, related to autonomic function, so how alert or sleepy we are, to prediction, to prediction error. It's a hub for many, many inputs and outputs. Hormone systems, et cetera. Beautiful experiments done by my colleague, Joe Pertubati at Stanford have shown that if you stimulate this brain area, tiny little brain area in a human, they immediately feel as if some challenge is impending, and they're going to meet that challenge. It's a forward center of mass against challenge response. This has been seen in independent subjects. They do controls where they then tell them they're stimulating, but they're not actually stimulating, and they're like, "I don't feel anything." You can turn on and off tenacity and willpower. So there's literally a hub for this. Now here's where it gets really interesting. I'm gonna list off a bunch of peer-reviewed published results in rapid sequence, and I'm happy to, uh, point out the, the, um, substantiation for this or the references. Okay, individuals that are dieting or resisting some sort of tempting behavior and are successful in doing that, the size and activity in their AMCC goes up over time, and the structure gets bigger. Dieters who fail, flat or downward trajectory of the size and activation of the AMCC. This can be taken too far. Individuals with anorexia nervosa, the most deadly of all psychiatric disorders, where a dep- self-deprivation of food activates excessive reward, there's this kind of loop of reward, their AMCCs are significantly greater size than others. So there's, you know, this can be taken too far. Super agers, which is a bit of a misnomer, because these individuals are people who maintain healthy cognitive function similar to people in their 20s and 30s into their 70s, 80s, and 90s. Their AMCC maintains or increases in size into their later years. Typical agers, the size of... We always hear that you lose brain mass ac- across your lifespan. Well, most of it is from the AMCC. And beautifully, and this is two of my favorite results that really bring this around to a protocol or a takeaway, if people are given an easy task, the AMCC isn't activated. If they're given a hard task, in particular, a hard task, physical or cognitive, that they really don't want to do, the AMCC levels of activity go through the roof. And here's what's really cool. They gave aging, let's, you know, people aged 60 to 79, the task of adding three hours extra per week of cardiovascular exercise. Now, that's a lot, right? Three one-hour, they call them aerobic classes, but getting their heart rate up to about 65, 70% of, of maximum. So it's g- getting into like zone-

Chris Williamson 17:07 Zone three.

Andrew Huberman 17:08 ... three-ish area.

Chris Williamson 17:08 Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 17:09 Yeah, people can look up zone three, but you nailed it, zone three. The size of their AMCC increased across that six-month protocol, and offset the normal age-related decline in this, in this brain area in terms of its size. The theory that's starting to emerge is that the AMCC isn't just about tenacity and willpower to push through hard things, that it may actually be related to one's will to live, one's will to continue living. And I think this is, these are some of the most important results. By the way, I didn't participate in any of the research that I just described. I spent a lot of time with that literature, but I think it's so important. I mean, we hear about the amygdala, the hippocampus, the prefrontal cortex, all are very important brain structures. But, um, if nothing else, hopefully this conversation put the AMCC on the map.

Chris Williamson 17:52 The one- the one that m-

Andrew Huberman 17:53 Right.

Chris Williamson 17:53 ... literally could create your will to live is the one that's being overlooked a little bit.

Andrew Huberman 17:56 Right. And, and it can be... And what's interesting about this structure is that it's involved in generating tenacity and willpower for all things, not just for one situation. And what's really wonderful, I think, about the, the research literature on this is, it- it's so clear what we need to do. We need to do thi- l- let's say, like me, y- you're a person who enjoys weightlifting and you love running. I love those two activities. Well, guess what? Those activities, even if they're hard, like a hard run that I'm really enjoying-... or some hard sets in the gym, not going to increase the size or activity of the AMCC. People love to over, um, romanticize the utility of those final two reps. Sure-

Chris Williamson 18:33 Hmm.

Andrew Huberman 18:33 Okay, pushing to failure, great. You know, running hard till your lungs burn, great. But if you enjoy that, you're not increasing your amount of tenacity and willpower, at least according to the research data. What's going to do it is doing something what I call micro-sucks or macro-sucks.

Chris Williamson 18:47 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 18:47 You know, and so micro-sucks could be all the little things that you don't want during, to do during the day. Macro-sucks could be the larger things, but of course, you don't want to do things that are going to damage you psychologically or physically, of course, of course. But everyone, I believe, would benefit from, um, picking a few micro-sucks for, to do-

Chris Williamson 19:06 What, what are some of your micro-sucks or macro-sucks that you could sprinkle throughout the day?

Andrew Huberman 19:10 Okay, so on a household maintenance level, um, you know, I, I maintain a very clean home. I, I, I'm constantly throwing things away as well. But there are a few things, like once I exceed a certain number of dishes in the sink, it becomes this, "Okay, I'll, I'll load the dishwasher later," type thing. Like, a micro-suck for me would be, like, especially if something's been in there for a while and it's kinda gross, and then you gotta, like, work through it. And of course, I try and put each dish away as, as I, you know, dirty them up. But, um, so little things, the things like the, the, "I really don't wanna deal with that right now," that's the kind of thing, those harder tasks wh- where you have to breach some barrier-

Chris Williamson 19:44 Hmm.

Andrew Huberman 19:44 ... some resistance-

Chris Williamson 19:45 Hmm.

Andrew Huberman 19:45 ... to put it into, you know, Steven Pressfield language, or, um, our friend, David Goggins, right, you know, th- this idea that one has to callous the mind. I mean, it, David said that, right? And...

Chris Williamson 19:54 He's probably got an hypertrophied AMCC that's bigger than most people's.

Andrew Huberman 19:58 Pro- probably. And, and the, the beauty of having a, uh, an AMCC that's highly, uh, you know, available for activation is that, you know, through the micro and the macro-sucks of the day, you, you have this thing, it's like an engine that you can devote to other things.

Chris Williamson 20:14 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 20:14 So then you can devote the AMCC to other endeavors.

Chris Williamson 20:17 I have this thing I called email anxiety, and it's when my unread inbox reaches three figures or more, and that's when it just, it kinda follows me around like a poltergeist-

Andrew Huberman 20:26 There you go.

Chris Williamson 20:26 ... throughout the day. And that, that absolutely for me, that's probably a macro-suck, you know, to get through that-

Andrew Huberman 20:31 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 20:31 ... it's probably three to four hours, a lot of it's scheduling. When's this guest coming on? I need to speak to this partner. We got blah, blah, blah. Um, so yeah, I f- I feel that. Um, what else-

Andrew Huberman 20:41 It's subjective, right? I mean, what's a, what sucks is subjective to people.

Chris Williamson 20:44 Someone else might love emails.

Andrew Huberman 20:45 Yeah. Someone might, and, and I think that, um, you know, you've talked a lot on, in your show with various guests about, uh, you know, when we're in too much comfort, uh, our, we're not meeting our goals. I love deadlines for that reason. Um, I, I love deadlines. I love pressure.

Chris Williamson 21:00 I think-

Andrew Huberman 21:00 Um-

Chris Williamson 21:00 I think Parkinson's law is as close to a thermodynamic of productivity as we can get. Do you know what I mean? Like, when you have a deadline, you will meet it.

Andrew Huberman 21:10 Right.

Chris Williamson 21:11 If you do not have a deadline, you will manana, manana until forever.

Andrew Huberman 21:15 That's right. And some people, I think, s- um, preload the deadline by d- procrastinating, and then that's what, you know, gets their activation energy to, uh, a level where they can, they can engage. So, I've started thinking about this a lot lately. You know I love running, but it's interesting, I, I like to finish at my driveway and I live on a hill. And, um, actually this morning I was out for a run, and the gate at the end of the cul-de-sac is my sort of designated-

Chris Williamson 21:38 Finish line.

Andrew Huberman 21:38 ... stop point, so it actually sucked to do the last, you know, 20 meters, um, this morning, so there I probably got a little bit of AMCC activation because everything was m- y- th- the number of negotiations I went through-

Chris Williamson 21:48 Yep.

Andrew Huberman 21:48 ... when I turned up my street at the end of this run, whether or not I was gonna run this extra 20 meters was ridiculous.

Chris Williamson 21:53 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 21:54 I'm in the human brain, and I was struggling to not do these extra 20 meters, it was so silly. So, it's gotta, it's gotta hurt a little bit. Again, you don't wanna damage yourself, but I think in the context of, um, for instance, cognitive learning, getting to the point where you finish something and then forcing yourself to do one little extra bit there at the end.

Chris Williamson 22:11 Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 22:11 So, you know, I, I, I'm not looking for any credit for it, but I, I wanna be very clear that the scientific literature doesn't call these things micro-sucks, I call them micro-sucks.

Chris Williamson 22:19 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 22:19 Um, and I just want to put that out there just to make it, um, clearer as to what we're referring to.

Chris Williamson 22:24 Do you know, uh, do you know Nick Bare?

Andrew Huberman 22:25 I don't.

Chris Williamson 22:25 He's in Austin, he's a athlete and supplement-

Andrew Huberman 22:27 Oh, right.

Chris Williamson 22:28 ... supplement company owner.

Andrew Huberman 22:29 Runner.

Chris Williamson 22:29 Yep, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a hybrid athlete.

Andrew Huberman 22:30 He's a larger guy, but he runs really fast.

Chris Williamson 22:32 Does bodybuilding shows, does powerlifting, also runs.

Andrew Huberman 22:35 To be clear, I know that large guys run fast, but, um, typically they don't run, uh-

Chris Williamson 22:39 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 22:39 ... fast for 20 miles.

Chris Williamson 22:41 Correct.

Andrew Huberman 22:41 And he does.

Chris Williamson 22:41 That's accurate. Um, he, his little, uh, catchphrase is, "Go one more." And it's interesting what you're saying here is, it's not just about the completion of the thing that you're doing because a lot of the time, the thing that you choose to do, even the thing that's difficult, is done under your own volition.

Andrew Huberman 22:57 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 22:58 Don't get me wrong, if you do a difficult CrossFit workout, Fran or whatever, 21, 15, nine of, uh, thrusters and pull-ups, it is awf- it's hell, right? There's literally a name for what your throat feels like once you finish called Fran cough-

Andrew Huberman 23:11 Oh.

Chris Williamson 23:11 ... that people get from having taken their heart rate as high as it-

Andrew Huberman 23:14 Spasming of the-

Chris Williamson 23:15 Yeah, yeah, the... (coughs) Um, that taste of metal in the back of your throat. But, what, what people are doing there, although they're doing something that's difficult, it's, like, volitionally difficult and it's within their domain of enjoyment.

Andrew Huberman 23:27 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 23:27 And what you're saying here is that we're, we're looking to just push ourselves a little bit past that. It's like an-

Andrew Huberman 23:31 That's right.

Chris Williamson 23:31 ... unnecessary amount of challenge, and I think that go one more makes quite a nice, uh, reminder for us with the micro-suck or the macro-suck. Let's push ourselves just a little bit beyond where we would have got our sense of satisfaction 'cause presumably, you get the dopamine, "I've completed the task, fuck yeah," and then it's like, "Ah," and then I do just that tiny little bit-

Andrew Huberman 23:51 That's right.

Chris Williamson 23:52 ... more to, to bring.

Andrew Huberman 23:52 That's right.

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Chris Williamson 24:56 that I think has been really interesting from this side, you're good friends with Tom Segura.

Andrew Huberman 25:00 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:00 And-

Andrew Huberman 25:00 We're related. We're cousins.

Chris Williamson 25:02 You're kidding me.

Andrew Huberman 25:03 No. No, no, we're cousins.

Chris Williamson 25:04 I can see it now.

Andrew Huberman 25:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:05 Uh, his commitment to fitness-

Andrew Huberman 25:07 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 25:08 ... has been pretty fascinating for me to see.

Andrew Huberman 25:09 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 25:10 And he's kind of treating his body like an athlete to facilitate his chosen pursuit of comedy. I think even Bert is trying to sort his sort of health and fitness out one step at a time too.

Andrew Huberman 25:20 Bert's the control experiment.

Chris Williamson 25:23 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 25:24 Like, there's a... If it, if the experiment is about willpower, tenacity, and discipline, Tom is the, is the (laughs) is the con- is the active condition, and Bert is the control.

Chris Williamson 25:35 (inhales deeply) But I, I'm seeing more and more people now, especially performers that aren't using or that aren't within the realm of physical fitness, really starting to understand, "If I want to perform outside of this, I need to think like an athlete. I need to be looking at my hydration." I mean, Tom had his trainer travel with him on the road for months.

Andrew Huberman 25:53 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, Tom's really serious about his craft, as is Bert, they just have different approaches. And when it comes to fitness, I... By the way, I knows Bert is training, he's working out. I've been trying to get Bert to quit drinking alcohol for a while. Um, not because I'm the, um, arbiter of, of, of who should do what. I ne- I never tell people what to do, by the way. Provide information, people can do what they want. I'm a live and let live. I wanna be very clear about that. Um, but it's out of, uh, care and affection for, for Bert that, um, you know, excessive alcohol consumption over long periods of time, bad. I mean, we can keep that one pretty brief. So, but Bert is working out. But Tom, I know, um, because we talk and I've spent, uh, some time with him that, uh, he trains, he trains hard, and he sees it as integral with his, with his writing, with his ability to show up for his family, in business, et cetera. I mean, you... I think we're finally approaching a time in human history where, uh, we accept at the level of, you know, the scientific community, all the way through to wellness, and just generally that the brain and body are, are intimately linked at the level of what you... You know, if you want to improve your body, um, do something for your mind. If you want to improve your mind, do something for your body. And, and it's so clear now what we all need to do. I mean, we, we can get into the details, but at a macro level, it's clear that we should all be getting that 150 to 200 minutes of zone two per week, or walking a lot. If you live in a big city, you're probably getting that. But then also getting your heart rate up to, to, you know, max heart rate once a week, doing some sprint-type stuff on, in whatever format is safe for your body. Some people it's swimming, some people it's rowing, some people it's running. For me, it's running, but, you know, not everyone enjoys running or can do it. And then everyone should be doing at least six sets of resistance training per muscle group per week, minimum. Hard sets. To failure, okay, maybe, maybe not. Close to failure, yeah, probably. And it's especially the groups that have been, um, let's just say averse to weight training, right? Typically women, el- older folks, although now more women weight train 'cause they understand that in the absence of a lot of injected or prescription anabolic hormones, they're not gonna get, um, en- enormous. Um-

Chris Williamson 27:55 That's the funniest thing for me. Women-

Andrew Huberman 27:56 That's why we died, I think, right? That, that concept that, you know, if, if you, one lifts weights that they're gonna get huge.

Chris Williamson 28:01 Become bulky.

Andrew Huberman 28:02 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:02 Do you realize to all of the women who are out there that are concerned about lifting weights because they're going to get too bulky, do you know how hard I've worked to try and desperately become bulky for 15 years? Like, I've worked really, really difficult, hoping that one day I'll become bulky. And there is, I think it's dissipating a lot now, but there was for a long time this fear that, oh, do a couple of bicep curls and you're gonna look like the Incredible Hulk. It's like-

Andrew Huberman 28:24 Right.

Chris Williamson 28:25 ... me and my friends have really, really prayed for that to happen forever. Uh, you do not need to be concerned. It, it's not gonna creep up on you, and one day you're gonna wake up-

Andrew Huberman 28:34 Right.

Chris Williamson 28:34 ... and be this sort of vascular beast.

Andrew Huberman 28:35 Right. Um, a couple things about that. I mean, I, from a longevity standpoint, we know that maintaining healthy nerve to muscle function, neuromuscular junctions, is one of the things that resistance exercise does, and it's highly correlated with cognitive function into older age. Um, and for those people, I guess going back to our earlier conversation, we'll probably do this a few times in the course of, of, of this episode, but, um, the thing you want to do the least, that's actually the thing that where you stand to build up your AMCC the most.

Chris Williamson 29:01 Mm.

Andrew Huberman 29:01 So for me, that would be language learning or learning a musical instrument. It's two, two things that... I love music and, um, but I, I just, uh, it's just so hard for me. So it, it sits there on the shelf as a possible way to activate the AMCC. But in terms of actual, uh, resistance training, resistance training has an interesting property that I haven't heard discussed before, um, that pertains to men and women who do it. Um, which is unlike cardiovascular training. During a resistance training bout, because of the blood flow to the muscle, the so-called pump, you get a little window into what the potential progress would look like. That pump dissipates post-workout and then-

Chris Williamson 29:41 Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 29:42 ... if, if you allow sufficient rest and nutrition, et cetera, you'll get a hypertrophy response. But it's so unlike other forms of exercise. Like, if I go to a yoga class and I stretch or I'm doing some movement, I get to that limit where I'm quaking and I fall over, it's very different than getting a picture of just how flexible I will be-

Chris Williamson 29:58 Yes. Yes, yes.

Andrew Huberman 29:58 ... the next time, and then losing that until I adapt.

Chris Williamson 30:01 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 30:01 With running, your lungs, sometimes your throat burns as you pointed out, and that's showing you your limit, and of course, then there's an adaptation response that then allows you to perform at that level without the burning in the next time, right, if you allow sufficient recovery. But with weight training, it's kind of interesting. The whole pump thing was never something that I-... really drew me to weight training very much. But it's interesting because you get a glimpse into what the, the progress might look like. And so for, I would say for anyone who's worried about getting too big, unless your pump is bigger than you want to be-

Chris Williamson 30:31 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 30:31 ... you're not going to get that, right?

Chris Williamson 30:33 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 30:33 And so you actually get a window into, um, how much potential size increase you're gonna create. But it's so different than other forms of exercise in that way. It's like what other thing in life... Like, if you took a language class and you're like, "Oh, I'm going to learn Japanese," and you go and during the class you actually become fluent for a moment, then it's taken away-

Chris Williamson 30:49 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 30:49 ... and then you adapt and become fluent. So it's, it's a very special form of exercise that, that offers some unique, um, gifts to us as incentives for going back. But look, as I say this, I realize some people hate resistance training-

Chris Williamson 31:01 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 31:01 ... they love running. Some people hate running, um, they love resistance training. Some people I realize hate exercise.

Chris Williamson 31:06 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 31:07 But if you hate exercise, you should do it anyway.

Chris Williamson 31:09 AMCC.

Andrew Huberman 31:10 And you're getting the AMCC.

Chris Williamson 31:11 So going back to what you think might be happening to someone like Tom, who is a, like a cognitive athlete, right? But largely the physical realm. Comedians, apart from, I guess, until Joe, which is part of the beginning of, like, the comedian bro, bro lifter revolution. Before him, it wasn't exactly like... I wasn't looking to comedians as being the vanguard of health and fitness and stuff like that.

Andrew Huberman 31:35 No, it was like Belushi. I mean, look at Belushi, right? I mean, he was the, he was the epitome of lack of health, and sadly died, right?

Chris Williamson 31:41 So what, wh- what... Talk to me about what would

Chris Williamson 31:43 be happening to the brain-

Andrew Huberman 31:45 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 31:45 ... of somebody like Tom who pivots from being maybe 40 pounds overweight, per- I don't know how big he got at his, at his biggest.

Andrew Huberman 31:52 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 31:53 But lost a good bit of weight. And it wasn't just losing weight, it was then gaining muscle. So Dr. Gabriele Lion world of, like, muscle-centered medicine, he's going to benefit from that, the insulin sensitivity. There'll be like some physiological-

Andrew Huberman 32:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 32:03 ... changes. But talk to me for the people who are-

Andrew Huberman 32:05 Sure.

Chris Williamson 32:05 ... cognitive athletes, what's going to happen in someone like Tom's mind-

Andrew Huberman 32:09 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 32:09 ... when he changes his body?

Andrew Huberman 32:10 Yeah, so improved blood flow to the brain. I mean, the brain is most metabolically demanding organ in the entire body. It consumes a ton of glucose if you eat carbohydrates. If you... Yes, it can run on ketones, but blood flow through arteries, veins, and capillaries to the neurons of the brain is, is... It's inseparable from cognitive function. So when you improve blood flow to the brain, you improve cognitive function, period. When you restrict blood flow to the brain, even at a, at a microlevel, you impair cognitive function. Uh, in addition to that, um, we know that several forms of age-related cognitive decline and dementia are considered nowadays, some people will even call it type 3 diabetes, although that's a controversial term, diabetes of the brain. This is why a number of people who have Alzheimer's go on ketogenic diets and get some degree of relief. It's not that... By the way, it's not a cure for Alzheimer's, but some people do better when they switch the major fuel source for the brain. But in the case of Tom as an example, but someone who gets into exercising regularly, both resistance training and cardiovascular training, you're getting improved blood flow, you're getting far less inflammation of the brain. Inflammation is cognitive-depleting. Uh, reducing inflammation, cognitive enhancing, we all... That's absolutely true across the board, right? In animal studies, in humans. In addition to that, there are a lot of bloodborne factors, two of which I'll just highlight now, just for sake of time only, two. First of all, when we do cardio, that positively impact brain health and memory in particular. So when we do load-bearing cardiovascular exercise, so running, uh, as opposed to swimming, um, anything where, where the skeletal system is, is under some load, there's a hormone that's literally secreted from bone. I know we don't normally think of bones as endocrine organs, called osteocalcin. Osteocalcin is released from the bones under these load-bearing conditions. It can cross the blood-brain barrier, and we know that it plays an active role in promoting not just new cell production, but... 'Cause that's a more minor component of neuroplasticity, but, um, enhancement of nerve health and function in the hippocampus, which is an area that's instrumental for the formation of new memories. So, there's something about movement of the body that signals to the brain, "Ah, we're, you know, we're moving." You, you actually need to maintain or perhaps even enhance your ability to remember things. And this probably is an evolutionary conserved circuit that exists. We know it exists in mice as well. So that's one, one example. The other is that my colleague at Stanford, Tony Wyss-Coray, um, is best known for these, um, young blood experiments where they'll take the blood or plasma from a young rodent and put it into an aged or demented rodent and see improvements in cognitive function. And outside the United States, there are some clinics... By the way, I'm not recommending people do this. That have shown improvements in cognitive function or even offsetting of Alzheimer's and age-related cognitive decline. This has led to the idea of like vampires and baby blood and this whole thing.

Chris Williamson 35:02 Adrenochrome.

Andrew Huberman 35:03 Yeah, adreno... It's... Which is all crazy and conspiracy. I'm... I go on record saying that. But there's a recent paper that... Also from Tony's lab, showing that if... In animals that exercise regularly, if you take their blood or plasma and you supply that blood or plasma to aged or cognitively deficient animals, they, their cognition or their cognitive abilities improve. So there's something about blood of the exercised body that enriches the brain, and could be many different growth factors. It could be BDNF, brain-derived neurotrophic factor. It could be things like IGF-1, insulin-like growth factor. It's probably going to be a cocktail of different things, um, as well as osteocalcin. And so what we want to think about is that when we exercise, and that's a broad statement, exercise or word rather, cardiovascular and resistance training, it creates like a cocktail that then crosses into the blood-brain barrier that then creates a milieu of general growth health, or at least maintenance of, of cognitive tissue that's there. So Tom's incredibly sharp, and of course comedy requires not just memory, but also writing of new jokes, right? He's got to do Netflix specials for a long time, and I actually went and saw him in Aspen, a small venue. I flew out there to see him 'cause I wanted to see him in a small venue, because in small venues is where-... comics often work out their new material.

Chris Williamson 36:21 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 36:21 And, I mean, just, you know, to me, it was just astonishing, like to see the number of different thought threads. And one thing that makes Tom's comedy so wonderful, and other people like Richard Pryor do this exceptionally well too, is that he can switch personas very fast. So he's doing his voice, then he switches to his son's voice, then switches back. And the speed and precision with which he does that-

Chris Williamson 36:40 Very agile.

Andrew Huberman 36:41 ... makes it seem... Y- we forget that there are... Very agile, and then we, we've... He creates a, a panel of characters, and then wipes that board away, right? He's the only guy up there. Wipes that board away, and then creates a panel of new characters. And so, I mean, that requires a lot of dex- like, cognitive dexterity. So exercise is absolutely one of the best ways to improve brain function over time, and in addition to that, you know, there's been so much interest in, you know, should we do crossword puzzles? Should we... You know, why is it that some people maintain cognitive function? I think what's very clear to me based on all that literature is that it's not one specific thing, crossword puzzles or social engagement or exercise. It's all of those things. But let's not forget the SuperAgers, the people who are constantly trying things that are difficult, that are pressuring themselves a bit to do things that are difficult. Those people are offsetting, as far as we know, all of the major shrinkage of these brain structures that normally would shrink as people age. So we have a lot of control, but it does require effort, and I'll tell you, there's never going to be a pill or injection that... Whe- whether or not it's Ozempic or something like it, but for the brain.

Chris Williamson 37:47 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 37:47 There's just no, there's no way. There's no way that you're ever going to recapitulate learning and effort, um, and yes, it requires time, but it's, it's so clear. I mean, I don't know how many more papers in preclinical models-

Chris Williamson 38:00 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 38:01 ... and in humans one needs to see before they finally just, you know, bite the bullet and go-

Chris Williamson 38:04 Go and lift weights.

Andrew Huberman 38:05 Lift weights and run, or and do cardiovascular training. It's, it can't be one or the other.

Chris Williamson 38:09 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 38:09 You know, the, the, the stereotype of, like, the, the big, let's just say, big guy who's dumb. You know, I, I don't think it's entirely, um... I mean, you meet some big, big folks that are smart, right?

Chris Williamson 38:20 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 38:20 But there is something in the kind of broad correlations of people who... You know, ru- people who tend to only do cardiovascular training, you know, maybe it's, it's a selection bias. Like if they, the, the people who are already avid readers or more in, uh, kind of intellectual leanings maybe get more involved in tennis, swimming, running-type sports, rowing, because of the schools they went to or whatever. But people who just lift weights, it does seem as if over time, I don't know, maybe Derek will tell us, like, their neck is getting too big. They have sleep apnea.

Chris Williamson 38:53 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 38:53 It, it... They, they don't seem as sharp, and they're often mouth-breathers. Look at the really big guys in the gym. They're often-

Chris Williamson 38:59 Not strong in the jaw.

Andrew Huberman 39:00 And not just between sets, not aft- just after hard sets. They're... Now, I think they're also, they're asphyxiating themselves in sleep. We know this.

Chris Williamson 39:06 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 39:07 Um, and then you look at runners and the people who have the kind of like the... Really svelte and s- and, and they, um... And sure, they might maintain cognitive function, but their bodies are very vulnerable to injury.

Chris Williamson 39:19 Fragile.

Andrew Huberman 39:19 And they always seem to be complaining about what hurts. You know, there's, uh, like, my friends who do a lot of extended training, unless it's David Goggins, who doesn't seem to have the circuit for complaining-

Chris Williamson 39:28 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 39:29 ... um, at least certainly not online. Um, yeah, they always seem to be complaining about, about injuries. So I think a combination of resistance training and cardiovascular training is... Uh, let's just face it. Like, you can't do one and not the other if you wanna be healthy all around. Healthy of heart, healthy of body, healthy of mind, cognition, um, improved or, or at least maintained as we age. You, you gotta do both.

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Chris Williamson 40:49 Coming back to the discussion about alcohol, which is one that you tried to interject with Bert on, I think your episode that you released last year-

Andrew Huberman 40:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:57 ... back end of last summer.

Andrew Huberman 40:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:58 I think that really opened a lot of people's eyes to some of the risks of alcohol. I've been kind of flying the flag of it as a, uh, tool for productivity for quite a while.

Andrew Huberman 41:09 Mm-hmm, to avoid alcohol.

Chris Williamson 41:10 Yeah, that I think when you-

Andrew Huberman 41:11 Entirely or, or do you, do you drink at all?

Chris Williamson 41:13 Uh, I've brought it back into my life now, but I did six months sober three times and then 1,000 days without alcohol too.

Andrew Huberman 41:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 41:21 Um, but yeah, I'm seeing right now a huge pushback against unseen, unintentional drinking, and I think that, yeah, your episode last year opened a lot of people's eyes to it.

Andrew Huberman 41:35 Thanks. I mean, uh, again, I, I don't tell people what to do. I give them the facts and so they can make the best decisions for them. I mean, it's very clear that unless you're an alcoholic and provided you're an adult that, you know, two drinks per week maximum, um, is about the upper threshold beyond which you're going to start getting some health de- uh, detri- detriments.

Chris Williamson 41:54 (laughs) That's called a warm-up to a warm-up in England.

Andrew Huberman 41:55 Yeah, so, uh, you know, I've never been a big drinker. I don't drink. Um, I, I'm lucky that it's not something that's, that's a strong draw for me.

Chris Williamson 42:03 Me too.

Andrew Huberman 42:03 I mean, you know, I have friends that are recovered alcoholics, um, and, you know, their lives are so much better as a function of being sober, but for non-alcoholics, I mean, uh, I think everyone should just know the, uh, the health risks, especially women where the risks for breast cancer and other types of cancers are, are elevated so very much. And, uh, what was interesting, uh, to me about the response to that episode is that I think many people took it-... my, the impression I got was that many people took it as permission to finally stop drinking or drink less because they didn't enjoy drinking. And as you, so, you know, beautifully put out on social media, you know, drinking is one of the few activities that if you don't partake, people assume or accuse you of having a problem. And that's just wild. I mean, like, why would that be? And I think that, I think it also make, o- once actually I was out to dinner with a colleague years ago, and I declined drinking that evening. I was just talking to the, the visiting speaker, and, um, she said, "God, that's so boring." And I th- uh, well, first of all, I don't have a problem saying what's on my mind without alcohol, right? I don't have, I don't have a excessive GABAergic inhibition. (laughs) Um, so I'll say what I want to say, um, you know, as, uh, as best I can. But, you know, I think drinkers don't like people who don't drink because it takes the fun out of it for them because there is this idea that's, you know, prolific on college campuses, like, if everyone's drunk that somehow, like, the entire, like, vibe of the party is gonna take on a new, new flavor. And, and frankly, I remem- I went to a, a college, UC Santa Barbara, where at the time people drank a ton, a ton. Uh, discovered alcoholics, right? Um, and I used to go to parties sometimes, and I'd look around. I'm thinking like, "Everyone here is just blasted." Like, if anything happened-

Chris Williamson 43:49 Were you drinking? Did you drink in college?

Andrew Huberman 43:50 Yeah, I drank in college, but not that often. I, I had a habit, and I don't recommend this. I had a habit of going out about once a month, and I would tie one on, you know, absolutely. Um-

Chris Williamson 43:59 Infrequent but binge?

Andrew Huberman 44:00 Yeah. I never, you know, I, my tolerance to alcohol was always such that I would get drunk quickly and then sober up really fast. So I was drinking late into the night, um, but then I'd sober up really fast. Now, of course, we know the sleep you get after even one drink is vastly diminished and-

Chris Williamson 44:16 Every single person-

Andrew Huberman 44:17 ... like. Right.

Chris Williamson 44:17 ... that's got a Oura or a WHOOP strap or something-

Andrew Huberman 44:19 Right.

Chris Williamson 44:19 ... is feeling you right now.

Andrew Huberman 44:20 Um, and I think that alcohol, to me, um, never felt good. I never liked it, and it was a recipe for, you know, there was a lot of fights. There was a lot of, you know, there were a lot of bad stuff happens when people are drinking too much.

Chris Williamson 44:33 Dude, I've, I've, I've run-

Andrew Huberman 44:34 You know, drunk driving, to say nothing of poor decision-making.

Chris Williamson 44:36 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 44:37 I mean, I, to me, it just feels like there's so, there's so many better ways to have a good time that, that, that alcohol isn't necessary. But I do understand that it's a big part of many cultures, and I do understand that for many people, it's so part and parcel with, um, relaxing and with festivities-

Chris Williamson 44:56 Mm.

Andrew Huberman 44:56 ... and with feeling comfortable and with drawing a boundary between the normal day and the rest of the day. And-

Chris Williamson 45:01 That's interesting. There's a ritualistic aspect to it.

Andrew Huberman 45:04 Yeah. There's this sort of, it divides the day in an interesting way. So I'm not judgmental of it. I, but, uh, for me, I mean, I've, I'll go to a party where people are drinking and just hang out. I'm perfectly good.

Chris Williamson 45:13 Dude, I've stood on the door of a thousand club nights in my career, right-

Andrew Huberman 45:16 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 45:16 ... as a club promoter, and I can promise you, for the people that are thinking, "I like the sound of this justification, this excuse that I don't need to drink anymore," Dr. Huberman has said that, you know, maybe it's not for you, maybe it's not as enjoyable, nothing good happens in nightclubs after 1:00 in the morning. I am patient zero. I have the, I am the doctor of late night parties, okay? Like, that's one of my expertise. Nothing good happens in a nightclub. It's this sort of messy, sloppy, f- fights and kissing people you shouldn't and, and, and stumbling all over the place and stuff. If you go out and you don't drink and you go home at 1:00 in the morning, I think you probably get to capture about 80% of the enjoyment of the event that you would have done had you have drank, pre-drinks, gone out, done the whole thing. And I got a bit of push. I got quite a bit of pushback from a, a sobriety community a few years ago. I did this 1,000 days sober as a club promoter, which was, I guess like a kind of a big deal in, in some regards for, like, pushing the sobriety community forward. But I was never doing it because I had a problem. I was doing it because it gave me more consistency and more time and more money to spend on things that I cared about. So, it was a, a productivity tool, like, like the Pomodoro Technique, right, or going to bed on time or something.

Andrew Huberman 46:36 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:36 And, um, they had a little bit of a problem. They had a big problem with the fact that I said, "There is something to the enjoyment of drinking on a night out." I think anybody that says alcohol has no role in improving the quality of a night out ever just hasn't been on enough good nights out, right? There, there are ways that it can improve, kind of loosens people up. It can reduce their inhibitions. If you wanna go and dance, you know, you're dancing at a rave or, or at a, a festival, which I think there's one going on quite close to here, um, if you're there, it's really great. But if alcohol wasn't so widely distributed, I think people would ask a lot more questions. It's like you can't see the wood for the trees, right? You, you don't question it. It's such a, it's baked into the, the fabric of, of just human life. Every single time that I take a, like a macro dose but low of psilocybin, one where I can still function, but-

Andrew Huberman 47:30 What, what is, what is, um-

Chris Williamson 47:31 ... 0.75, 0.75 to one gram of-

Andrew Huberman 47:33 So that, so that's about, it's a little less than half of the macrotherapeutic dose for re- for intractable depression, which is something-

Chris Williamson 47:41 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 47:41 ... like 2.2 grams or so.

Chris Williamson 47:43 So, so you can still hold a conversation depending on what strain you've got.

Andrew Huberman 47:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 47:46 But every single time that I do it, without fail, a thought comes into my mind, which is, "Why does anyone drink alcohol?"

Andrew Huberman 47:54 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 47:54 Why does anybody do it? Because I'll go to bed. My HRV, my recovery is fine. The next day, maybe I'm a little bit tired. Like, I've had a lot of, like, activation. I've been super energetic, very little hangover. On the evening, I don't do stupid things. It makes me want to say nice things to all of my friends. My thoughts are sharper than they were before. Sometimes they're silly, but they're sharper. And then you compare it with alcohol, and it's this kind of sloppy, muddy, very un-agile... It's, it's just I, I, I totally get what you mean when you've taken a little bit of time away from it and you look at it in the harsh light of day, the effect that alcohol gives you-

Andrew Huberman 48:30 ... just aren't that enjoyable, and it's been folded into people's lives through tradition- Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 48:34 ... and through just anchoring bias and continuation.

Andrew Huberman 48:37 Yeah, and marketing. You know, the idea that, like, someone can, quote unquote, "hold their liquor" is such, like a... It's been, um, made synonymous with, you know, masculine ideals. It's like, I mean, it's, it's kinda crazy 'cause we know it also, uh, crushes testosterone levels. What's interesting is that, um, you know, the... I, I forget who said this, but, you know, there's a very different picture of a young drunk versus an old drunk. You know, someone who's been just drinking for too many years is not a pretty picture.

Chris Williamson 49:06 It sucks.

Andrew Huberman 49:07 They become infantile. They become really infantile. And, um, you know, again, I'm, I'm not the anti-alcohol crusader. We di- I did that e- episode not expecting much of a response actually, (laughs) um, but that shows just how out of, uh, out of touch sometimes I can be. And-

Chris Williamson 49:21 I think, just to reiterate it, man, I think it gave people the excuse.

Andrew Huberman 49:24 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 49:25 What you did was you gave people the justification. You legitimized them. It's like the best books tell you something you, that you already know. It was like they... Everyone always... Lots of people always had an idea, "I probably shouldn't be drinking. Maybe I don't enjoy it that much. Maybe these aren't my friends, they're just my drinking partners. Maybe I don't like the way that I feel the next day. Maybe my life could be better if I stop drinking."

Andrew Huberman 49:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 49:47 That's the justification.

Andrew Huberman 49:48 Well, I'm happy to hear that for those folks, you know, now that the information is out there. I've, um... I was accused several times, uh, on Twitter/X of, um, taking all the fun out of parties in the, at least in the Bay Area. But I'll tell you, I grew up in the Bay Area, the good parties ended a long time ago.

Chris Williamson 50:03 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 50:04 Uh, but they still exist, you know what I mean? I think there are, you know... And when I say other ways to have fun, I don't mean like, oh, everyone should sit around doing math or read neuroscience, although for me that's fun. Um, you know, I think th- I think w- w- in a broader sense, I think there's a shift nowadays that people really think about, you know, how to engage socially in ways that are interesting. I mean, perhaps it's a, again, a sampling bias because of the topics that I cover and who talks to me, but, you know, like, in the Bay Area, there are these Russian banyas. In New York, there's Spa 88. By the way, they don't pay me to say this, but I like to go to this, uh, Russian banya down in Wall Street. You go there and, you know, got hot saunas and cold plunge, and people are... You know, young people are there enjoying themselves, and they a- they actually serve alcohol, so they'll have... Sometimes they'll do, like, little gimlets of, of vodka or something there. And so, you know, people sometimes... That's part of the tradition.

Chris Williamson 50:50 The most Russian thing that I can think of-

Andrew Huberman 50:52 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 50:52 ... shot of vodka whilst hot.

Andrew Huberman 50:54 Right, so the... And, you know, and they've got theories as to how that can help. And listen, I think some of those traditions can be, really be wonderful. But, you know, people are starting to combine socializing with health promoting protocols and, you know, going out and eating good food together, like, eating really wonderful food, um, with the social component. The, you know, I... I'll go into the grave talking about getting morning sunlight, something that maybe we should talk a little bit more about, and as people, like, roll their eyes, I'll just say there's this incredible study now just out in Nature, um, Mental Health, published about 80... That has 85,000, 85,000 subjects showing that the ratio of getting a lot of sunlight during the day to getting minimal artificial light exposure at night, it really sets the tone of your overall system and is, and is associated with, brain and body that is, and is associated with better mental health outcomes across the board. And the inverse, right? If you're getting too much artificial light at night or not enough sunlight or both, it is associated with everything bad, elevate depression, anxiety, et cetera. Now, I do believe people should get out and have a good time. Don't avoid the bright lights of a city or a club.

Chris Williamson 51:56 Yep.

Andrew Huberman 51:56 Have a great time, like dancing, socializing. Those are great reasons to stay up too late-

Chris Williamson 51:59 Yep.

Andrew Huberman 51:59 ... and get minimal sleep or sleep in the next day.

Chris Williamson 52:02 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 52:02 Great reasons. So every once in a while, sure, 10, 20% of your life you're gonna do that, and you're probably some percentage of time is also gonna be raising kids, so you're up because you have to to keep, keep them alive-

Chris Williamson 52:11 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 52:11 ... which is important to our species, so thank you. But I think people, you know, forget that, yes, you can go outside and get morning sunlight, and which I highly recommend people do that as, as most people know. But I mean, so many benefits on mood and mental health and improved sleep that it, you just... And it's completely zero cost, you know. But I often get accused of, "Okay, well, but what if you have kids? Like, how do you do this?" Well, you take the kids with you 'cause guess what? They need it too. You, you take them outside, you eat breakfast outside, or at least facing a window indoors. It's not gonna be as good as having the window open or being outdoors, but even if the sun's on the other side of your apartment building. I mean, these things have an outsized positive effect on health, and I'll wager both upper limbs anyway, uh, that many, many, many of the mental health issues that we see nowadays in young people and in adults is the consequence of disrupted circadian rhythms because of a lot of time in a two-dimensional screen space, which I'm not condemning. I spend time on and put out most of my content on social media and YouTube and Apple, Spotify, right? Um, and in addition to that, too, the lights are too bright at night, and they're not getting enough sunlight during the day. And an important thing to understand about our circadian/health, you know, circadian system and health is that throughout... In the morning and throughout the day, your eyes are less sensitive to light, and you need more of it in order to get what you need, okay? Broadly speaking. And at night, your eyes are far more sensitive to artificial lighting, and you need far less of it in order to disrupt your circadian system in bad ways, disrupt your mental health. Now, does that mean you have to walk around with sunglasses at night and, you know, dim all the lights in your house? Well, no, but you could afford to dim them a little bit. Um, you could afford to switch to the red light function on your phone. There's actually a triple-click red light function on every phone that, um... Uh, maybe I'll pass the, the, the throughput of what to do to your phone, it's... Which allows you to eliminate the blues.

Chris Williamson 54:03 Accessibility functions on, on iPhone.

Andrew Huberman 54:06 Yeah, on iPhone-

Chris Williamson 54:06 I think mine goes to, mine goes to grayscale when I do that.

Andrew Huberman 54:08 Yeah, you can... Yeah, so you can have it switch to grayscale or to purely red, uh, you know, eliminate the blues, a trick that my friend Rick Rubin taught me. I was like, "Oh, this is great." You know, you don't... You know, you don't necessarily have to purchase blue blocker glasses or anything like that.

Chris Williamson 54:19 We'll get back to talking to Andrew in one minute, but first, I need to tell you...... about MudWTR. MudWTR is a coffee alternative that tastes like chai and cacao had a baby. It's got four functional mushrooms and with only a fraction the caffeine as a cup of coffee, you will get all of the natural energy without the jitters or crash. Each ingredient was added for a purpose. Cacao and chai for a hint of coffee and hot chocolate-like flavor, lion's mane for focus, cordyceps to promote natural energy, and both chaga and reishi to support a healthy immune system. Plus, it's Whole30 approved, 100% USDA organic certified, non-GMO, gluten-free, vegan, and kosher. So, if you are looking for a delicious alternative to your morning coffee, this is a great place to start. Right now, you can get $20 off your first order plus a whole box of good stuff, including creamer and a free frother by going to the link in the description below or heading to mudwtr.com/modernwisdom. That's mudwtr.com/modernwisdom.

Andrew Huberman 55:16 So there are a bunch of little things

Andrew Huberman 55:18 that we can do that make a vast improvement in the way that our biology and psychology function, and it- it's amazing when you start to think about how most people exist now. It's too dim, not enough light for them during the day, especially not enough sunlight, and then it's too bright for them at night. And they're also living mostly in a two-dimensional world of screens.

Chris Williamson 55:37 What's- what's the problem with the two-dimensional thing?

Andrew Huberman 55:39 Well, the, you know, the, we have an epidemic of myopia, of nearsightedness, and it's been shown in a bunch of different clinical trials now, the first couple of them that were attacked, like most studies, something comes out, then it gets attacked, then there's a retaliation study, et cetera, um, that kids that spend two hours or more out of doors per day have a far lower incidence of myopia, nearsightedness. And even if they're on iPads and- and books and computers, there's something about far viewing, about viewing things further than three or four feet away from us on a frequent- for a significant portion of our day. Doesn't mean you have to be staring off into the horizon, but as opposed to near viewing where you're looking at something within about four feet of oneself, this distance that we're sitting across from one another is about fo- probably about four and a half, five feet. Um, it's- it's not quite far viewing, but you think abou- watch people's behavior, look at how they go through the day. They're spending most of their time looking at things about a foot to a foot and a half away, and as a consequence, the eyeball gets longer. This is a well-established fact in animal models and humans. And then the visual image isn't focused onto the retina, the light-sensing portion at the back of the eye. The image falls in front of the retina, so-called nearsightedness, right? It's falling too near to the lens, okay? There are other, some people claim that nearsightedness has to do with the actual perceptual changes, but in any event, so fortunately that the eyeball actually can change in length, so viewing things further away can actually, especially early in life, allow the eyeball to adjust its shape. Amazing. Just like the sinuses, these, there's plasticity of a lot of different organs.

Chris Williamson 57:05 Mm.

Andrew Huberman 57:06 And so the point is that we need to get out and view things at a distance. If you're walking down the street looking at your phone, you're- you're- you're degrading the functioning of your visual system. Uh-

Chris Williamson 57:15 Well, I told you, I- I think I texted you before I did it, I got laser eye surgery a month ago.

Andrew Huberman 57:18 Oh, yeah, so you got the LASIK.

Chris Williamson 57:20 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 57:20 Great.

Chris Williamson 57:20 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 57:20 And that's, so the LASIK, just to, uh, uh, you know, educate people, is to actually change the shape of the eyeball somewhat, um, in order to make it more perfect optically, um, in a way that for many people allows them to not have to wear corrective lenses of any kind.

Chris Williamson 57:35 Yeah, I can see everything. I can see your ancestral trauma and- and- and full works now-

Andrew Huberman 57:40 Nice.

Chris Williamson 57:40 ... at 100 yards.

Andrew Huberman 57:41 Amazing.

Chris Williamson 57:42 Um...

Andrew Huberman 57:42 Your vision is super sharp now?

Chris Williamson 57:43 Corre- oh, it's 20/15. It's-

Andrew Huberman 57:45 Wa- what was the sur- was the surgery painful? Um...

Chris Williamson 57:48 It's very interesting. So, um, I actually videoed it. I haven't put it up because it's kinda, it's probably pretty uncomfortable for people to watch. Um...

Andrew Huberman 57:54 Th- that's never stopped you before.

Chris Williamson 57:55 That's true, that's true.

Andrew Huberman 57:57 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:57 So, um, they numb both of your eyes using numbing drops.

Andrew Huberman 57:59 Okay.

Chris Williamson 58:00 And then they come over the top with a, kind of a- a large box on an arm.

Andrew Huberman 58:07 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 58:07 They rest the valve of the front of this box on the eyeball itself and then suck the eyeball onto the actual valve so that it can't move. They then loo- use one laser to create a flap in the cornea-

Andrew Huberman 58:23 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 58:24 ... which is at the, uh, precise distance based on all of the tests that they did in the days prior to that. They then take it off.

Andrew Huberman 58:30 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 58:32 You, you're still lying back. You have to keep looking at a green light that's above you. The, uh, surgeon will lift the flap, the front flap of the cornea up.

Andrew Huberman 58:42 Yep.

Chris Williamson 58:42 Using, uh, kind of a soft pair of tweezers.

Andrew Huberman 58:44 Yep.

Chris Williamson 58:45 The laser will then come in behind now the opened part of the cornea, do the corrective surgery.

Andrew Huberman 58:50 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 58:51 The flap will then get replaced, uh, and- and it needs to be very, very, very precise so that i- any slight nudge, I actually had to go and get the, uh, I had to get my flap re-lifted, uh, a couple of days later on my left eye because a tiny, tiny, tiny little bit of oil from the top of my eyelid had been caught underneath the flap, and it was causing a flaring of bright lights. And, um, so I had to go back and actually get the flap re-lifted. Get this, the flap that they make can still be re-lifted up to three years later.

Andrew Huberman 59:21 Amazing.

Chris Williamson 59:22 It's fascinating. Um, and yeah, had it done on both eyes, couple of, one day of recovery. It feels very gritty. For the people that are concerned about whether or not it's- it's gonna, like, hurt them and my recovery period was one day and I was able to, I recorded a podcast 48 hours in bright lights, 48 hours afterward, and then-

Andrew Huberman 59:39 Was it an expensive procedure?

Chris Williamson 59:41 Four grand GBP, so five grand, uh, USD.

Andrew Huberman 59:44 So not a trivial sum.

Chris Williamson 59:45 Not a trivial sum, but also given that it's literally how you navigate the world.

Andrew Huberman 59:49 Sure.

Chris Williamson 59:49 Uh, and I was squinting a lot. I was squinting at screens to have read the text. I was using really large text. The only reason I found out about this is because I went in for a checkup and they got me to do my eye test, and the lady turned and said, "Yeah, you, um, you legally can't drive without glasses." And I was like, "What are you talking about? My vision's, my vision's great. Like, my vision's always been like this." But she got me to do the thing, and I thought, "Yeah, it shouldn't be, I should be able to read those huge letters that are only 20 feet away from me, shouldn't I?" And, uh, sure enough, after this corrective surgery, 20/15 vision, everything's razor sharp. Um, the only considerations that I would say are nighttime viewing of bright lights, specifically, uh, street lights, cars coming toward you. You get a little bit of flaring-

Andrew Huberman 1:00:36 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:00:36 ... around them. Um, and that's because it's now passing through not just one piece of material, but there is a second cut.

Andrew Huberman 1:00:42 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:00:43 Um, that supposedly dissipates a little bit over time. But, uh, I am...... flying the flag for a laser eye treatment, man. It's, it's been a complete game-changer. My pickleball game's improved, which is obviously what was most important. Um, everything's, uh, it- it's really, really good. And I'm, I'm very, very impressed. And thank you to my surgeon for doing it.

Andrew Huberman 1:01:02 Yeah, so the, this little flap, did they tell you how big the flap is?

Chris Williamson 1:01:06 I can just show you the video.

Andrew Huberman 1:01:07 Okay.

Chris Williamson 1:01:07 I can show you the video once we finish up.

Andrew Huberman 1:01:09 Uh, interesting. Um, thanks for sharing that. Yeah, I, I think it's an interesting procedure. And, um, we did an episode with our chair of ophthalmology-

Chris Williamson 1:01:17 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:01:18 ... Jeff Goldberg, and, um, he was a proponent of it for people that are, you know, have the means-

Chris Williamson 1:01:22 I texted you.

Andrew Huberman 1:01:23 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:23 I text, I texted you-

Andrew Huberman 1:01:23 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:24 ... to make sure that, like, the, the ophthalmologist guy with all of the dudes-

Andrew Huberman 1:01:26 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:27 ... that know it, like, am I, am I-

Andrew Huberman 1:01:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:27 ... all right to do this?

Andrew Huberman 1:01:28 Jeff's amazing. Actually, we, we trained at th- in the same lab. He was a grad student, I was a postdoc. Then he ended up in Miami, and then we converged in San Diego. Then when he moved to Stanford, I moved to Stanford. So I, we sort of, uh, he'll argue I was tracking him. I'll argue he was tracking me. But, um, he's my chairman, so I'll just say I was tracking him.

Chris Williamson 1:01:43 Whatever.

Andrew Huberman 1:01:44 Um, but very, very smart guy. And, and I think, yeah, getting, keeping your eyes healthy is key. This actually comes back to light. Um, so there's some really beautiful data out of Glen Jeffrey's laboratory at University College London. I've known Glen for more than 20 years. He's a spectacular vision scientist. Um, showing that r- exposure to artificial red light, you know, there's a lot of the, you know, like the Joovv and these other red lights that are out there, Cozy and these other red light systems, which by the way, I don't have any financial relationship to.

Chris Williamson 1:02:12 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:02:12 Um, you know, r- the idea that red light could somehow enhance different functions of our tissues or preserve different functions of our tissues, people think is really biohacky. Like, oh, this is, you know, people under red lights, but you know, there was a Nobel Prize given for the use of long wavelength light for the treatment of lupus, like almost 100 years ago. So the idea of phototherapy is not a new concept, but people love to, to kind of push it into the realm of, of, um, biohacking/bro science, but it's not. Um, red light therapy has been shown to have some positive outcomes for the treatment of acne, for scar healing and wound healing. Uh, red light is long wavelength light which can penetrate further through tissues than short wavelength light.

Chris Williamson 1:02:55 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:02:56 So that's sort of the argument there, is that when you look at red light or when red- red light is placed on or is shown on the skin, some of it is actually getting into the deeper layers of the dermis. How deep is questionable. Some people argue that it can even get into the, the blood supply if, you know, it's like on the wrist or s- In any event, Glen's lab has shown two really important findings, and the first one they've shown twice in separate studies, and this is all in humans. The first result is that f- if people look at red light for two or three minutes once or twice a week, in particular early in the day, it can offset some age-related vision loss. How? Well, the photoreceptors at the back of the eye are some of the most metabolically, uh, d- consum- metabolically active and, um, let's just say energy-consuming cells of the entire nervous system, which is saying a lot because the nervous system is the most metabolically cons- consuming or- uh, metabolically, excuse me, active organ. And so as a consequence, these really active cells create a lot of so-called reactive oxygen species, and that impacts the, negatively impacts the functions of mitochondria. So viewing red light seems to restore some of the mitochondrial function by limiting reactive oxygen species in the photoreceptors and offsetting, and they've shown this, some, not all, but some age-related vision loss.

Chris Williamson 1:04:07 Presumably, you're not talking about looking at one of these red light panels, because these things are like a, a fucking like fla- It's like, it's huge.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:15 It's so bright.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:16 I am, I actually am referring to that.

Chris Williamson 1:04:17 Wow.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:18 But you want to do it at a distance that's comfortable, so several feet, right? Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:21 Those panels, for the people that don't know, these things-

Andrew Huberman 1:04:23 They can be very bright.

Chris Williamson 1:04:24 ... are inside. They even provide you with, uh, like the-

Andrew Huberman 1:04:27 Eye protection.

Chris Williamson 1:04:28 Yeah, the, like, the stuff for the-

Andrew Huberman 1:04:29 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:29 ... for the sunbed-

Andrew Huberman 1:04:30 That's right.

Chris Williamson 1:04:31 ... that goes with them.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:31 Yeah, so you don't want to do this for more than a couple minutes and you do want to blink and you do it probably through eye- eyelids closed. If your eyelids are thin enough and it's bright enough, it can probably get in nonetheless. But let, let me be very, very clear. Uh, well, I'll tell you the other result and then I'll tell you why you don't need- necessarily need a red light. Um, the other result, which is more recent and is still under review, so I want to be very clear, but the, the data look interesting, um, to say the least, is that there's this old theory, like old theory that the French have really expounded that, you know, eating food outdoors is metabolized differently than eating food indoors. Which sounds crazy, right? I mean, at some level. And yet this study shows that if people do this red light viewing j- while eating or in the minutes just after eating for just a few minutes, that the post-meal blood glucose level severe- is significantly dampened, which is a good thing, right? You don't want big elevations in blood glucose or excessive elevations in blood glucose. Now, that all sounds a little bit at the edge of what we consider, you know, valid, uh, or reasonable. And yet if you think about sunlight, sunlight is full spectrum light. So this isn't saying you need to run out and buy a red light. This is, if you w- get outside and get your morning sunlight, yes, it's going to set your circadian rhythm for elevated mood, focus and alertness during the day, improve sleep at night, but in addition to that, you're getting red light to your eyes early in the day.

Chris Williamson 1:05:54 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:05:55 You're, you absolutely are getting red light to your eyes. Now, in very densely overcast days, say, in the UK or elsewhere-

Chris Williamson 1:06:00 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:06:01 ... it's not, you're gonna really filter out the, the clouds are gonna filter out-

Chris Williamson 1:06:04 Everything.

Andrew Huberman 1:06:04 ... the red light.

Chris Williamson 1:06:04 The joy.

Andrew Huberman 1:06:05 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:06:06 Uh, the, the will to live.

Andrew Huberman 1:06:08 (laughs) And, um, and as a consequence some people choose to supplement their light with these red light, uh, devices. Um, but this idea that the French and others have, have argued, and I'm sure as I say the French said it, then, you know, the French will nod and everyone else will say no. Th- it's like it was us first or us also.

Chris Williamson 1:06:23 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:06:23 It's probably multiple, uh, people throughout history, groups throughout history. But it does seem that there's something different about the way that food is metabolized if, under different lighting conditions, which sounds crazy and I, I can already hear Layne Norton stomping in with his-

Chris Williamson 1:06:39 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:06:39 ... you know, ba- basically, yeah. Layne's, Layne's brain sort of has like PubMed ideas. I, I, I think it's great, by the way. Layne, w- we love you. Um, and I love his, his, um, his, uh, sort of, um, adherence to PubMed IDs. But, you know, uh, these are published studies I'll send along. You can tell me what you think, Layne. But, um, the point being that there still needs to be more work on this, right? But it's always nice when some-... nicely controlled studies done by well-established laboratories that people in a field trust, like Glen's lab. Um, start seeing things once or twice over in multiple studies, um, that really work well with what we know from kind of naturalistic conditions. For instance, there are hunters, people that are adventurers, that are, whose job depends on them being able to see into the distance.

Chris Williamson 1:07:26 Cameron Hanes.

Andrew Huberman 1:07:26 Yeah, Cam Hanes. These people maintain vision well into their older age. But just-

Chris Williamson 1:07:32 But nerds, I mean look-

Andrew Huberman 1:07:33 ... like me who spend too much time in front of a book or a screen, who spend most of their time (laughs) and have for many years, looking at things down... I mean, for years, I looked at things down a microscope. That was where most of my life was, down, looking down the microscope.

Chris Williamson 1:07:44 Oh. Oh.

Andrew Huberman 1:07:44 But also reading things at close distance. Well, you, you know, it makes sense that the eyeball would lengthen and you end up with nearsightedness. I do wear corrective lenses, um, at night, especially if I'm driving at night. I've really worked hard to try to not succumb to the need for corrective lenses, 'cause I'm trying to keep my vision health good, and when I-

Chris Williamson 1:08:01 Uh, 'cause you've become reliant.

Andrew Huberman 1:08:03 ... I really focus... Yeah, I don't want to become reliant on it. But, but, you know, at night, I have to wear corrective lenses.

Andrew Huberman 1:08:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:08:07 Talking about the red light stuff, have you heard of Huberman husbands? Do you know what this is?

Andrew Huberman 1:08:12 Yeah, um, unfortunately... Well, I, I should say that, that the most unfortunate thing about the Huberman husbands post is that it was about, is that it was taken by certain media outlets to amplify the idea that, uh, the audience of my podcast is just male, when in fact it's 50% male, female, at least in the listenership. YouTube skews male, but we knew that anyway. Um, but the listenership is 50% male, 50% female. And the Huberman husbands thing, um, was really about how a, a woman was saying that she thinks she's the Huberman husband because she does all these different things that, uh, we've, we've covered.

Chris Williamson 1:08:46 But they got taken from that. For the people that don't know-

Andrew Huberman 1:08:49 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:08:49 ... the, the meta meme around Huberman husbands-

Andrew Huberman 1:08:51 Right. Right.

Chris Williamson 1:08:51 ... which you can search on TikTok right now, is that the hot new thing that all of the wives want out there is a husband who's into red light therapy-

Andrew Huberman 1:09:02 Oh, great.

Chris Williamson 1:09:02 ... and he does cold plunges and he does sauna treatments and stuff. So, I, I wondered-

Andrew Huberman 1:09:06 See, guys, I'm trying to help you out.

Chris Williamson 1:09:07 Look, dude-

Andrew Huberman 1:09:08 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:09:08 I, I wondered how you feel of a bunch of guys potentially cosplaying as Andrew Huberman in the bedroom. Like, the price of long-sleeve black shirts has gone through the roof.

Andrew Huberman 1:09:17 Okay, th- this is it.

Chris Williamson 1:09:18 You now have people fully LARPing as you. Maybe they're, they're telling their, telling their wife that they didn't get enough sunlight in their eyes as dirty talk in the bedroom. I'm not sure. I wondered how it feels to have this army of Andrew Hubermans from Wish now existing on, on the internet.

Andrew Huberman 1:09:33 So, so we covered the AMCC. It means anterior mid-cingulate cortex. But I confess, even though I know that, I don't know what cosplay is-

Chris Williamson 1:09:41 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:09:41 ... and I don't know what LARPing is.

Chris Williamson 1:09:43 Cosplay is dressing up. It's, it happens at, um, a lot of conventions. Someone will go as Anakin S- Skywalker or Pikachu or whatever, and LARPing is like-

Andrew Huberman 1:09:52 For, for sexual titillation?

Chris Williamson 1:09:54 Sometimes, but not always. Uh, titillation...

Andrew Huberman 1:09:56 So, this has sort of been like a, this is the, this is like the action hero, um, variation on furries?

Chris Williamson 1:10:02 Kind of.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:03 Okay.

Chris Williamson 1:10:03 Yeah, but it's not-

Andrew Huberman 1:10:04 Furries is more Lex's domain.

Chris Williamson 1:10:06 G- precisely.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:06 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:10:06 Yeah, we know, we know that well. Uh, and then LARPing is-

Andrew Huberman 1:10:08 No, we know that, but we don't know it well, fortunately. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:10:11 Live action role playing, LARPing. So that, again, is this kind of... Uh, I'm saying there are potentially, there is potentially a market out there if a guy is struggling in the dating world to take the aesthetic, get fully Huberman pilled, and then there is a, a, a huge potential demand amongst the wives out there.

Andrew Huberman 1:10:34 Okay, so, um, this is news to me. Um, one thing that's come up recently in discussions with some traditional media outlets, but, but also just generally, right, is, you know, to what extent is all this focus on health, um, you know, does that change something about masculine-feminine dynamics? Like, like the, the traditional, um, stereotype of men was that they're tough enough to not need to engage in any self-care, right? They don't need sleep. They can drink a lot of liquor. They'll eat when there's food. They'll eat whatever. They don't like going to the doctor, right? This ve- this like runs very counter-current to the kinds of things I talk about on my podcast. Like, "Hey, get up in the morning and get some sunlight," right? Uh, lift weights, run. Um, and I should point out that none, none of what I've talked about with exercise ever... Of course there's