Understanding Stress, Willpower & Discipline - Dr Andrew Huberman (4K)

1. 0:00 – 8:16

   How Mouth-Breathing Changes Face Shape

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      What were you just teaching me about mouth breathing and how it changes the shape of the face?

   2. AHAndrew Huberman0:06

      Yeah. So I arrived carrying a copy of the book, Jaws: A Hidden Epidemic. This is not Jaws the shark. Uh, this book was written by my colleagues at Stanford, Sandra Khan and Paul Ehrlich. And it has an introduction by Jared Diamond, who won a Pulitzer for Guns, Germs, and Steel, and a forward by the great Robert Sapolsky, also a colleague of mine at Stanford. So four heavy hitters on this book, just to credential it first. Um, this book centers around a couple of core concepts, but the first being that people, and in particular children, who overuse mouth breathing as opposed to nasal breathing have changes in the structure of the face that, well, to be quite direct, makes them far more unattractive than if they were to mouth breathe. It also discusses the chewing of foods as essential to mouth and face development. Sandra Khan is an expert in craniofacial function and structure, um, and the fact that if your parents and you did things right, you should be able to place your en- your entire tongue on the roof of your mouth with your mouth closed. Now, I can't do that. Okay? So when you, with teeth closed-

   3. CWChris Williamson1:24

      Mm-hmm.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman1:24

      ... tongue on the roof of your mouth, I can, but I still feel the back of my teeth a bit. Um, so I, yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:30

      Okay, yeah.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman1:30

      Um, but the, so that's the second point, that we want to chew har- ch- chewing foods is essential to tooth and mouth and face development. Um, these days, many children slurp their food. Uh, many adults slurp their foods. Um, many adults are eating like babies, and of course, babies before they develop their mature teeth, and even when they h- before they get all of their teeth in need to obviously breast milk and, um, you know, pudding like foods. Okay. But so that's the second point. So nasal breathing, good, mouth breathing, bad for craniofacial development. Chewing hard foods, chewing a lot on both sides of the mouth, great for craniofacial development, oral development, tooth development, and tooth health, which by the way are correlated with a number of other things like cardiovascular health and metabolic health. Ver- very interesting links there. And then the third point is that, uh, the, the book argues that the entire field of orthodontia, things like, um, braces, things like headgear, things like retainers, are the byproduct of poor, um, breathing and let's just say, uh, overconsumption of soft foods in place of hard foods, uh, behavior. And so there's this guy who's from your side of the pond, uh, Mu-

   7. CWChris Williamson2:47

      I like him already.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman2:48

      ... he talks about the Mu method, um, of restoring normal craniofacial development. The book is chock-a-block full of impressive photos of before and afters, impressive because in some cases you'll see kids that were, um, mouth breathers or were eating a lot of soft foods and then they recovered their behavior, so to speak, and became nose breathers. Of course, we have to mouth breathe when we're exercising really hard.

   9. CWChris Williamson3:10

      Mm.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman3:10

       Or when we're eating or speaking, we're gonna mouth breathe. But at rest we should nasal breathe is the argument, and that greatly improves craniofacial, um, aesthetics. And the good news is this stuff is modifiable across the lifespan. And, um, and so the book isn't arguing for anyone to purchase anything. You don't need a Jawserlicer. I'm saying that explicitly because they took clips of me talking about this and, and pr- and productized it, and I had nothing to do with that. So hopefully you'll keep this in the episode. And they even admitted they were breaking the law and he said, "We don't care. We're gonna continue to do it." So, um-

   11. CWChris Williamson3:42

       Sales are sales, man.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman3:43

       Yeah. But no, those, those, you know, to, to the credit of, of, um, products for, um, uh, exercising the jaw, sure, there are muscles of the jaw that can-

   13. CWChris Williamson3:52

       Well, what you're talking about is-

   14. AHAndrew Huberman3:52

       ... uh, change the aesthetic but-

   15. CWChris Williamson3:53

       ... eat tough-

   16. AHAndrew Huberman3:53

       ... using food to do that.

   17. CWChris Williamson3:55

       Yeah.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman3:55

       Right.

   19. CWChris Williamson3:55

       Eat tough food is-

   20. AHAndrew Huberman3:56

       Right.

   21. CWChris Williamson3:56

       If you don't have a sufficiently tough diet-

   22. AHAndrew Huberman3:59

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson3:59

       ... I guess you could replace it. But it's, explain to me the mechanics of how-

   24. AHAndrew Huberman4:04

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson4:04

       ... the difference in whether you breathe through your nose or breathe through your mouth changes the shape of your face and head.

   26. AHAndrew Huberman4:10

       Yeah. Well, and it goes beyond that. If you breathe through your mouth as opposed to your nose, the, first of all, you bring in less oxygen than you would if, so you're, you're limiting, you're es- effectively putting yourself into a state of apnea, right? Which is bad during sleep. And guess what? It's bad during waking states also. Uh, you're getting less oxygen to your brain, bad. The sinuses, you know, we hear our, my sinuses are clogged or my sinu- the sinuses... Wish I had brought a skull with, with me 'cause one of the most impressive things about a skull, human skull being no exception, is that the sinuses are literally these little, uh, tubes or channels through which fluid and air can move. And the sinuses, even though they are essentially the, created by the fissures between different bones, so like there, there's two, two or three different bones that are interdigitated and create these tunnels. They're actually fairly plastic in the sense that they can be modified in terms of their shape and, and so people will say, "Well, I have a deviated septum." Guess what? You should em- try and emphasize breathing through both nostrils as a, uh, in order to, uh, undeviate your septum. Now, if someone has a broken nose or something that's really structurally abnormal, they may need corrective surgery. But purely through na- deliberate nasal breathing, so it could be mouth taping at night, but also just deliberately nasal breathing during most of your cardiovascular training unless you need to really, you know, hit the gas, in which case you mouth breathe, is going to help dilate the sinuses and lead to better airflow, which makes nasal breathing easier. The other thing is that nasal breathing we know, um, well, first of all, there's a nasal microbiome. There's also an oral microbiome, but that nasal microbiome is particularly well-suited to, um, scrub or, uh, capture and destroy viruses, bacteria, and even some fungal infections. So in other words, when you're breathing in through your mouth, you're more susceptible to infections.

   27. CWChris Williamson5:53

       Mm-hmm.

   28. AHAndrew Huberman5:53

       This is important heading into winter as well.

   29. CWChris Williamson5:55

       Mm.

   30. AHAndrew Huberman5:56

       Um, so there are a number of, I mean, we could talk about this for hours, but, uh, the point is nasal breathe when you can. Um, kids especially but a- adults as well, chewing foods that require, you know, eating foods that require some chewing and really working at it and chewing away-Um, they have some impressive images in this, uh, book of kids that were twins that were raised separately. One by a group that eats a lot of, um, l- let's just say tougher foods that require chewing, versus one that's slurping their food. And I mean, one kid is literally incredibly attractive, perfect dentiture with no orthodontia or den- or, you know, regular dentistry. And the other kid is, teeth is like snaggled.
2. 8:16 – 24:56

   What We Misunderstand About Stress

   1. CWChris Williamson8:16

      mentioned Sapolsky, that I had him on the show recently.

   2. AHAndrew Huberman8:18

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson8:19

      What do you think most people misunderstand about stress? Obviously, he's contributed an awful lot to this. I know you've thought about this too.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman8:26

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson8:27

      What do you think people don't understand fully about stress?

   6. AHAndrew Huberman8:29

      Yeah, the findings that I think are overlooked tremendously are the- the following experiment. Um, there's an experiment in animals where a rat is given the opportunity to run on a treadmill, and rats and- and rodents of all kind love, kinds love running on treadmills. You know, they're these interesting, um, s- we'll see who catches this fly first.

   7. CWChris Williamson8:46

      Yeah, I'm- I'm ready, man.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman8:47

      Um, yeah. (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson8:48

      Yes.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman8:48

       The, uh, I think, um, you know, there's even a study from Hoppy Hofstra's lab at- at Harvard that showed that if you put wheels, running wheels in fields, that rodents will run there in the middle of the night and run on them. That's how insanely, uh, obsessed with running, um, rodents are.

   11. CWChris Williamson9:03

       They're just energetic, they want to go.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman9:04

       There's something rewarding about it for them. But in any event, it lowers their blood pressure, it leads to incr- improvements in a number of metrics that you expect. And you see the same thing in humans, right, who run on a treadmill or run outdoors or swim, cardiovascular exercise. Okay, well, um, Sapolsky, um, and I love to talk about a- an experiment where they took two different cages with animals. One is running voluntarily, but then that running wheel is tethered to a running wheel in another cage that encloses an animal, forces it to run every time the other one runs. So, forced exercise versus voluntary exercise. And the takeaway is very straightforward. Voluntary exercise leads to all sorts of improvements in health metrics, resting heart rate, blood pressure, blood glu- glucose (laughs) , um, resting blood glucose, et cetera, waking blood glucose. Um, the animal that's forced to exercise, you see the opposite, right? So it's not exercise per se, it's something about being forced to exercise is, uh, causes, um, decrements in a number of health metrics. And you see the same thing in humans. So what's wild is my colleague, Dr. Alia Crum, Department of Psychology at Stanford, um, has done these beautiful experiments on mindset and belief. These are not placebo effects. And what she's shown (laughs) in- in a just absolutely spectacular way is that if people watch a short video about all the ways in which stress can really diminish your health, well then indeed, stress diminishes their health. Whereas if a separate group watches an- a factual, also five minute, also factual tutorial on all the ways that stress can enhance performance by harnessing your ability to focus, memory formation, et cetera-

   13. CWChris Williamson10:40

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman10:40

       ... all of which is true, that- that's indeed what you see.

   15. CWChris Williamson10:43

       Can I give you my favorite one that I learned about over the last year?

   16. AHAndrew Huberman10:45

       Yes.

   17. CWChris Williamson10:46

       So, the Boston Marathon bombing, uh, 2012, abo- about 10 years ago, 2016 maybe. Anyway, uh, Boston Marathon bombing, a study was done comparing people who had been at the actual marathon while the bomb had gone off and people who had watched 90 minutes or more of news coverage about it. And the people who watched 90 minutes or more of news coverage about it showed a greater stress response than the people who'd literally lived through it.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman11:14

       Interesting, interesting. Yeah, the- the, um, the- the mindset and belief effects are- are absolutely extraordinary and- and very real, right? I mean, I think, you know, um, recently I've been reading and researching a lot about and did a podcast on tenacity and willpower.

   19. CWChris Williamson11:33

       Mm.

   20. AHAndrew Huberman11:33

       And, um, there was this idea early on from Baumeister and colleagues that willpower is a limited resource. Some of the-

   21. CWChris Williamson11:39

       E- ego depletion, willpower?

   22. AHAndrew Huberman11:41

       Ego depletion.

   23. CWChris Williamson11:41

       Yes.

   24. AHAndrew Huberman11:42

       Um, it was controversial. Um, they showed that, you know, replenishing glucose in between hard tasks could restore willpower.

   25. CWChris Williamson11:48

       They showed that, uh, uh, was it juries or judges that were low in blood glucose were more likely to give harsher sentences, stuff like this.

   26. AHAndrew Huberman11:55

       Yeah, it did. It sort of wicked out to a number of naturalistic situations, and it made good sense, and then my colleague Carol Dweck, also in the psychology department at Stanford, um, most famously known for her work on mind- growth mindset, did an experiment in which they, um, essentially asked whether or not-... tenacity and willpower are limited in terms of being a- some sort of resource, and also whether or not it was somehow linked to glucose availability, fuel, uh, in the brain and body, and found that if people thought or were told that min- that, uh, excuse me, willpower was a limited resource, that's indeed what they observed experimentally. But that if they were taught or were told that willpower is unlimited, and, and divorced from glucose levels, well then, that's exactly what you saw. So-

   27. CWChris Williamson12:42

       So you're saying, you're saying that learning about ego depletion and believing that willpower is a limited resource is an information hazard that is self-fulfilling.

   28. AHAndrew Huberman12:51

       Uh, potentially.

   29. CWChris Williamson12:51

       (laughs)

   30. AHAndrew Huberman12:52

       Now, now, now, now Baumeister, you know, showed, um, himself to be, you know, pretty determined-
3. 24:56 – 31:43

   People Are Recognising the Need to Focus on Health & Fitness

   1. CWChris Williamson24:56

      that I think has been really interesting from this side, you're good friends with Tom Segura.

   2. AHAndrew Huberman25:00

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson25:00

      And-

   4. AHAndrew Huberman25:00

      We're related. We're cousins.

   5. CWChris Williamson25:02

      You're kidding me.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman25:03

      No. No, no, we're cousins.

   7. CWChris Williamson25:04

      I can see it now.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman25:05

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson25:05

      Uh, his commitment to fitness-

   10. AHAndrew Huberman25:07

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson25:08

       ... has been pretty fascinating for me to see.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman25:09

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson25:10

       And he's kind of treating his body like an athlete to facilitate his chosen pursuit of comedy. I think even Bert is trying to sort his sort of health and fitness out one step at a time too.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman25:20

       Bert's the control experiment.

   15. CWChris Williamson25:23

       (laughs)

   16. AHAndrew Huberman25:24

       Like, there's a... If it, if the experiment is about willpower, tenacity, and discipline, Tom is the, is the (laughs) is the con- is the active condition, and Bert is the control.

   17. CWChris Williamson25:35

       (inhales deeply) But I, I'm seeing more and more people now, especially performers that aren't using or that aren't within the realm of physical fitness, really starting to understand, "If I want to perform outside of this, I need to think like an athlete. I need to be looking at my hydration." I mean, Tom had his trainer travel with him on the road for months.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman25:53

       Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, Tom's really serious about his craft, as is Bert, they just have different approaches. And when it comes to fitness, I... By the way, I knows Bert is training, he's working out. I've been trying to get Bert to quit drinking alcohol for a while. Um, not because I'm the, um, arbiter of, of, of who should do what. I ne- I never tell people what to do, by the way. Provide information, people can do what they want. I'm a live and let live. I wanna be very clear about that. Um, but it's out of, uh, care and affection for, for Bert that, um, you know, excessive alcohol consumption over long periods of time, bad. I mean, we can keep that one pretty brief. So, but Bert is working out. But Tom, I know, um, because we talk and I've spent, uh, some time with him that, uh, he trains, he trains hard, and he sees it as integral with his, with his writing, with his ability to show up for his family, in business, et cetera. I mean, you... I think we're finally approaching a time in human history where, uh, we accept at the level of, you know, the scientific community, all the way through to wellness, and just generally that the brain and body are, are intimately linked at the level of what you... You know, if you want to improve your body, um, do something for your mind. If you want to improve your mind, do something for your body. And, and it's so clear now what we all need to do. I mean, we, we can get into the details, but at a macro level, it's clear that we should all be getting that 150 to 200 minutes of zone two per week, or walking a lot. If you live in a big city, you're probably getting that. But then also getting your heart rate up to, to, you know, max heart rate once a week, doing some sprint-type stuff on, in whatever format is safe for your body. Some people it's swimming, some people it's rowing, some people it's running. For me, it's running, but, you know, not everyone enjoys running or can do it. And then everyone should be doing at least six sets of resistance training per muscle group per week, minimum. Hard sets. To failure, okay, maybe, maybe not. Close to failure, yeah, probably. And it's especially the groups that have been, um, let's just say averse to weight training, right? Typically women, el- older folks, although now more women weight train 'cause they understand that in the absence of a lot of injected or prescription anabolic hormones, they're not gonna get, um, en- enormous. Um-

   19. CWChris Williamson27:55

       That's the funniest thing for me. Women-

   20. AHAndrew Huberman27:56

       That's why we died, I think, right? That, that concept that, you know, if, if you, one lifts weights that they're gonna get huge.

   21. CWChris Williamson28:01

       Become bulky.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman28:02

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson28:02

       Do you realize to all of the women who are out there that are concerned about lifting weights because they're going to get too bulky, do you know how hard I've worked to try and desperately become bulky for 15 years? Like, I've worked really, really difficult, hoping that one day I'll become bulky. And there is, I think it's dissipating a lot now, but there was for a long time this fear that, oh, do a couple of bicep curls and you're gonna look like the Incredible Hulk. It's like-

   24. AHAndrew Huberman28:24

       Right.

   25. CWChris Williamson28:25

       ... me and my friends have really, really prayed for that to happen forever. Uh, you do not need to be concerned. It, it's not gonna creep up on you, and one day you're gonna wake up-

   26. AHAndrew Huberman28:34

       Right.

   27. CWChris Williamson28:34

       ... and be this sort of vascular beast.

   28. AHAndrew Huberman28:35

       Right. Um, a couple things about that. I mean, I, from a longevity standpoint, we know that maintaining healthy nerve to muscle function, neuromuscular junctions, is one of the things that resistance exercise does, and it's highly correlated with cognitive function into older age. Um, and for those people, I guess going back to our earlier conversation, we'll probably do this a few times in the course of, of, of this episode, but, um, the thing you want to do the least, that's actually the thing that where you stand to build up your AMCC the most.

   29. CWChris Williamson29:01

       Mm.

   30. AHAndrew Huberman29:01

       So for me, that would be language learning or learning a musical instrument. It's two, two things that... I love music and, um, but I, I just, uh, it's just so hard for me. So it, it sits there on the shelf as a possible way to activate the AMCC. But in terms of actual, uh, resistance training, resistance training has an interesting property that I haven't heard discussed before, um, that pertains to men and women who do it. Um, which is unlike cardiovascular training. During a resistance training bout, because of the blood flow to the muscle, the so-called pump, you get a little window into what the potential progress would look like. That pump dissipates post-workout and then-
4. 31:43 – 40:49

   How the Mind Improves When the Body Improves

   1. CWChris Williamson31:43

      be happening to the brain-

   2. AHAndrew Huberman31:45

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson31:45

      ... of somebody like Tom who pivots from being maybe 40 pounds overweight, per- I don't know how big he got at his, at his biggest.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman31:52

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson31:53

      But lost a good bit of weight. And it wasn't just losing weight, it was then gaining muscle. So Dr. Gabriele Lion world of, like, muscle-centered medicine, he's going to benefit from that, the insulin sensitivity. There'll be like some physiological-

   6. AHAndrew Huberman32:03

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson32:03

      ... changes. But talk to me for the people who are-

   8. AHAndrew Huberman32:05

      Sure.

   9. CWChris Williamson32:05

      ... cognitive athletes, what's going to happen in someone like Tom's mind-

   10. AHAndrew Huberman32:09

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson32:09

       ... when he changes his body?

   12. AHAndrew Huberman32:10

       Yeah, so improved blood flow to the brain. I mean, the brain is most metabolically demanding organ in the entire body. It consumes a ton of glucose if you eat carbohydrates. If you... Yes, it can run on ketones, but blood flow through arteries, veins, and capillaries to the neurons of the brain is, is... It's inseparable from cognitive function. So when you improve blood flow to the brain, you improve cognitive function, period. When you restrict blood flow to the brain, even at a, at a microlevel, you impair cognitive function. Uh, in addition to that, um, we know that several forms of age-related cognitive decline and dementia are considered nowadays, some people will even call it type 3 diabetes, although that's a controversial term, diabetes of the brain. This is why a number of people who have Alzheimer's go on ketogenic diets and get some degree of relief. It's not that... By the way, it's not a cure for Alzheimer's, but some people do better when they switch the major fuel source for the brain. But in the case of Tom as an example, but someone who gets into exercising regularly, both resistance training and cardiovascular training, you're getting improved blood flow, you're getting far less inflammation of the brain. Inflammation is cognitive-depleting. Uh, reducing inflammation, cognitive enhancing, we all... That's absolutely true across the board, right? In animal studies, in humans. In addition to that, there are a lot of bloodborne factors, two of which I'll just highlight now, just for sake of time only, two. First of all, when we do cardio, that positively impact brain health and memory in particular. So when we do load-bearing cardiovascular exercise, so running, uh, as opposed to swimming, um, anything where, where the skeletal system is, is under some load, there's a hormone that's literally secreted from bone. I know we don't normally think of bones as endocrine organs, called osteocalcin. Osteocalcin is released from the bones under these load-bearing conditions. It can cross the blood-brain barrier, and we know that it plays an active role in promoting not just new cell production, but... 'Cause that's a more minor component of neuroplasticity, but, um, enhancement of nerve health and function in the hippocampus, which is an area that's instrumental for the formation of new memories. So, there's something about movement of the body that signals to the brain, "Ah, we're, you know, we're moving." You, you actually need to maintain or perhaps even enhance your ability to remember things. And this probably is an evolutionary conserved circuit that exists. We know it exists in mice as well. So that's one, one example. The other is that my colleague at Stanford, Tony Wyss-Coray, um, is best known for these, um, young blood experiments where they'll take the blood or plasma from a young rodent and put it into an aged or demented rodent and see improvements in cognitive function. And outside the United States, there are some clinics... By the way, I'm not recommending people do this. That have shown improvements in cognitive function or even offsetting of Alzheimer's and age-related cognitive decline. This has led to the idea of like vampires and baby blood and this whole thing.

   13. CWChris Williamson35:02

       Adrenochrome.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman35:03

       Yeah, adreno... It's... Which is all crazy and conspiracy. I'm... I go on record saying that. But there's a recent paper that... Also from Tony's lab, showing that if... In animals that exercise regularly, if you take their blood or plasma and you supply that blood or plasma to aged or cognitively deficient animals, they, their cognition or their cognitive abilities improve. So there's something about blood of the exercised body that enriches the brain, and could be many different growth factors. It could be BDNF, brain-derived neurotrophic factor. It could be things like IGF-1, insulin-like growth factor. It's probably going to be a cocktail of different things, um, as well as osteocalcin. And so what we want to think about is that when we exercise, and that's a broad statement, exercise or word rather, cardiovascular and resistance training, it creates like a cocktail that then crosses into the blood-brain barrier that then creates a milieu of general growth health, or at least maintenance of, of cognitive tissue that's there. So Tom's incredibly sharp, and of course comedy requires not just memory, but also writing of new jokes, right? He's got to do Netflix specials for a long time, and I actually went and saw him in Aspen, a small venue. I flew out there to see him 'cause I wanted to see him in a small venue, because in small venues is where-... comics often work out their new material.

   15. CWChris Williamson36:21

       Mm-hmm.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman36:21

       And, I mean, just, you know, to me, it was just astonishing, like to see the number of different thought threads. And one thing that makes Tom's comedy so wonderful, and other people like Richard Pryor do this exceptionally well too, is that he can switch personas very fast. So he's doing his voice, then he switches to his son's voice, then switches back. And the speed and precision with which he does that-

   17. CWChris Williamson36:40

       Very agile.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman36:41

       ... makes it seem... Y- we forget that there are... Very agile, and then we, we've... He creates a, a panel of characters, and then wipes that board away, right? He's the only guy up there. Wipes that board away, and then creates a panel of new characters. And so, I mean, that requires a lot of dex- like, cognitive dexterity. So exercise is absolutely one of the best ways to improve brain function over time, and in addition to that, you know, there's been so much interest in, you know, should we do crossword puzzles? Should we... You know, why is it that some people maintain cognitive function? I think what's very clear to me based on all that literature is that it's not one specific thing, crossword puzzles or social engagement or exercise. It's all of those things. But let's not forget the SuperAgers, the people who are constantly trying things that are difficult, that are pressuring themselves a bit to do things that are difficult. Those people are offsetting, as far as we know, all of the major shrinkage of these brain structures that normally would shrink as people age. So we have a lot of control, but it does require effort, and I'll tell you, there's never going to be a pill or injection that... Whe- whether or not it's Ozempic or something like it, but for the brain.

   19. CWChris Williamson37:47

       (laughs)

   20. AHAndrew Huberman37:47

       There's just no, there's no way. There's no way that you're ever going to recapitulate learning and effort, um, and yes, it requires time, but it's, it's so clear. I mean, I don't know how many more papers in preclinical models-

   21. CWChris Williamson38:00

       Mm-hmm.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman38:01

       ... and in humans one needs to see before they finally just, you know, bite the bullet and go-

   23. CWChris Williamson38:04

       Go and lift weights.

   24. AHAndrew Huberman38:05

       Lift weights and run, or and do cardiovascular training. It's, it can't be one or the other.

   25. CWChris Williamson38:09

       Yeah.

   26. AHAndrew Huberman38:09

       You know, the, the, the stereotype of, like, the, the big, let's just say, big guy who's dumb. You know, I, I don't think it's entirely, um... I mean, you meet some big, big folks that are smart, right?

   27. CWChris Williamson38:20

       Yeah.

   28. AHAndrew Huberman38:20

       But there is something in the kind of broad correlations of people who... You know, ru- people who tend to only do cardiovascular training, you know, maybe it's, it's a selection bias. Like if they, the, the people who are already avid readers or more in, uh, kind of intellectual leanings maybe get more involved in tennis, swimming, running-type sports, rowing, because of the schools they went to or whatever. But people who just lift weights, it does seem as if over time, I don't know, maybe Derek will tell us, like, their neck is getting too big. They have sleep apnea.

   29. CWChris Williamson38:53

       (laughs)

   30. AHAndrew Huberman38:53

       It, it... They, they don't seem as sharp, and they're often mouth-breathers. Look at the really big guys in the gym. They're often-
5. 40:49 – 55:18

   The Health Risks of Drinking Alcohol

   1. CWChris Williamson40:49

      Coming back to the discussion about alcohol, which is one that you tried to interject with Bert on, I think your episode that you released last year-

   2. AHAndrew Huberman40:57

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson40:57

      ... back end of last summer.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman40:58

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson40:58

      I think that really opened a lot of people's eyes to some of the risks of alcohol. I've been kind of flying the flag of it as a, uh, tool for productivity for quite a while.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman41:09

      Mm-hmm, to avoid alcohol.

   7. CWChris Williamson41:10

      Yeah, that I think when you-

   8. AHAndrew Huberman41:11

      Entirely or, or do you, do you drink at all?

   9. CWChris Williamson41:13

      Uh, I've brought it back into my life now, but I did six months sober three times and then 1,000 days without alcohol too.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman41:21

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson41:21

       Um, but yeah, I'm seeing right now a huge pushback against unseen, unintentional drinking, and I think that, yeah, your episode last year opened a lot of people's eyes to it.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman41:35

       Thanks. I mean, uh, again, I, I don't tell people what to do. I give them the facts and so they can make the best decisions for them. I mean, it's very clear that unless you're an alcoholic and provided you're an adult that, you know, two drinks per week maximum, um, is about the upper threshold beyond which you're going to start getting some health de- uh, detri- detriments.

   13. CWChris Williamson41:54

       (laughs) That's called a warm-up to a warm-up in England.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman41:55

       Yeah, so, uh, you know, I've never been a big drinker. I don't drink. Um, I, I'm lucky that it's not something that's, that's a strong draw for me.

   15. CWChris Williamson42:03

       Me too.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman42:03

       I mean, you know, I have friends that are recovered alcoholics, um, and, you know, their lives are so much better as a function of being sober, but for non-alcoholics, I mean, uh, I think everyone should just know the, uh, the health risks, especially women where the risks for breast cancer and other types of cancers are, are elevated so very much. And, uh, what was interesting, uh, to me about the response to that episode is that I think many people took it-... my, the impression I got was that many people took it as permission to finally stop drinking or drink less because they didn't enjoy drinking. And as you, so, you know, beautifully put out on social media, you know, drinking is one of the few activities that if you don't partake, people assume or accuse you of having a problem. And that's just wild. I mean, like, why would that be? And I think that, I think it also make, o- once actually I was out to dinner with a colleague years ago, and I declined drinking that evening. I was just talking to the, the visiting speaker, and, um, she said, "God, that's so boring." And I th- uh, well, first of all, I don't have a problem saying what's on my mind without alcohol, right? I don't have, I don't have a excessive GABAergic inhibition. (laughs) Um, so I'll say what I want to say, um, you know, as, uh, as best I can. But, you know, I think drinkers don't like people who don't drink because it takes the fun out of it for them because there is this idea that's, you know, prolific on college campuses, like, if everyone's drunk that somehow, like, the entire, like, vibe of the party is gonna take on a new, new flavor. And, and frankly, I remem- I went to a, a college, UC Santa Barbara, where at the time people drank a ton, a ton. Uh, discovered alcoholics, right? Um, and I used to go to parties sometimes, and I'd look around. I'm thinking like, "Everyone here is just blasted." Like, if anything happened-

   17. CWChris Williamson43:49

       Were you drinking? Did you drink in college?

   18. AHAndrew Huberman43:50

       Yeah, I drank in college, but not that often. I, I had a habit, and I don't recommend this. I had a habit of going out about once a month, and I would tie one on, you know, absolutely. Um-

   19. CWChris Williamson43:59

       Infrequent but binge?

   20. AHAndrew Huberman44:00

       Yeah. I never, you know, I, my tolerance to alcohol was always such that I would get drunk quickly and then sober up really fast. So I was drinking late into the night, um, but then I'd sober up really fast. Now, of course, we know the sleep you get after even one drink is vastly diminished and-

   21. CWChris Williamson44:16

       Every single person-

   22. AHAndrew Huberman44:17

       ... like. Right.

   23. CWChris Williamson44:17

       ... that's got a Oura or a WHOOP strap or something-

   24. AHAndrew Huberman44:19

       Right.

   25. CWChris Williamson44:19

       ... is feeling you right now.

   26. AHAndrew Huberman44:20

       Um, and I think that alcohol, to me, um, never felt good. I never liked it, and it was a recipe for, you know, there was a lot of fights. There was a lot of, you know, there were a lot of bad stuff happens when people are drinking too much.

   27. CWChris Williamson44:33

       Dude, I've, I've, I've run-

   28. AHAndrew Huberman44:34

       You know, drunk driving, to say nothing of poor decision-making.

   29. CWChris Williamson44:36

       Yeah.

   30. AHAndrew Huberman44:37

       I mean, I, to me, it just feels like there's so, there's so many better ways to have a good time that, that, that alcohol isn't necessary. But I do understand that it's a big part of many cultures, and I do understand that for many people, it's so part and parcel with, um, relaxing and with festivities-
6. 55:18 – 1:08:07

   How Our Screen Use Impacts Eye Health

   1. AHAndrew Huberman55:18

      that we can do that make a vast improvement in the way that our biology and psychology function, and it- it's amazing when you start to think about how most people exist now. It's too dim, not enough light for them during the day, especially not enough sunlight, and then it's too bright for them at night. And they're also living mostly in a two-dimensional world of screens.

   2. CWChris Williamson55:37

      What's- what's the problem with the two-dimensional thing?

   3. AHAndrew Huberman55:39

      Well, the, you know, the, we have an epidemic of myopia, of nearsightedness, and it's been shown in a bunch of different clinical trials now, the first couple of them that were attacked, like most studies, something comes out, then it gets attacked, then there's a retaliation study, et cetera, um, that kids that spend two hours or more out of doors per day have a far lower incidence of myopia, nearsightedness. And even if they're on iPads and- and books and computers, there's something about far viewing, about viewing things further than three or four feet away from us on a frequent- for a significant portion of our day. Doesn't mean you have to be staring off into the horizon, but as opposed to near viewing where you're looking at something within about four feet of oneself, this distance that we're sitting across from one another is about fo- probably about four and a half, five feet. Um, it's- it's not quite far viewing, but you think abou- watch people's behavior, look at how they go through the day. They're spending most of their time looking at things about a foot to a foot and a half away, and as a consequence, the eyeball gets longer. This is a well-established fact in animal models and humans. And then the visual image isn't focused onto the retina, the light-sensing portion at the back of the eye. The image falls in front of the retina, so-called nearsightedness, right? It's falling too near to the lens, okay? There are other, some people claim that nearsightedness has to do with the actual perceptual changes, but in any event, so fortunately that the eyeball actually can change in length, so viewing things further away can actually, especially early in life, allow the eyeball to adjust its shape. Amazing. Just like the sinuses, these, there's plasticity of a lot of different organs.

   4. CWChris Williamson57:05

      Mm.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman57:06

      And so the point is that we need to get out and view things at a distance. If you're walking down the street looking at your phone, you're- you're- you're degrading the functioning of your visual system. Uh-

   6. CWChris Williamson57:15

      Well, I told you, I- I think I texted you before I did it, I got laser eye surgery a month ago.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman57:18

      Oh, yeah, so you got the LASIK.

   8. CWChris Williamson57:20

      Yes.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman57:20

      Great.

   10. CWChris Williamson57:20

       Yeah.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman57:20

       And that's, so the LASIK, just to, uh, uh, you know, educate people, is to actually change the shape of the eyeball somewhat, um, in order to make it more perfect optically, um, in a way that for many people allows them to not have to wear corrective lenses of any kind.

   12. CWChris Williamson57:35

       Yeah, I can see everything. I can see your ancestral trauma and- and- and full works now-

   13. AHAndrew Huberman57:40

       Nice.

   14. CWChris Williamson57:40

       ... at 100 yards.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman57:41

       Amazing.

   16. CWChris Williamson57:42

       Um...

   17. AHAndrew Huberman57:42

       Your vision is super sharp now?

   18. CWChris Williamson57:43

       Corre- oh, it's 20/15. It's-

   19. AHAndrew Huberman57:45

       Wa- what was the sur- was the surgery painful? Um...

   20. CWChris Williamson57:48

       It's very interesting. So, um, I actually videoed it. I haven't put it up because it's kinda, it's probably pretty uncomfortable for people to watch. Um...

   21. AHAndrew Huberman57:54

       Th- that's never stopped you before.

   22. CWChris Williamson57:55

       That's true, that's true.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman57:57

       Yeah, yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson57:57

       So, um, they numb both of your eyes using numbing drops.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman57:59

       Okay.

   26. CWChris Williamson58:00

       And then they come over the top with a, kind of a- a large box on an arm.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman58:07

       Mm-hmm.

   28. CWChris Williamson58:07

       They rest the valve of the front of this box on the eyeball itself and then suck the eyeball onto the actual valve so that it can't move. They then loo- use one laser to create a flap in the cornea-

   29. AHAndrew Huberman58:23

       Mm-hmm.

   30. CWChris Williamson58:24

       ... which is at the, uh, precise distance based on all of the tests that they did in the days prior to that. They then take it off.
7. 1:08:07 – 1:22:32

   Reacting to ‘Huberman Husbands’

   1. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:07

      Yeah.

   2. CWChris Williamson1:08:07

      Talking about the red light stuff, have you heard of Huberman husbands? Do you know what this is?

   3. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:12

      Yeah, um, unfortunately... Well, I, I should say that, that the most unfortunate thing about the Huberman husbands post is that it was about, is that it was taken by certain media outlets to amplify the idea that, uh, the audience of my podcast is just male, when in fact it's 50% male, female, at least in the listenership. YouTube skews male, but we knew that anyway. Um, but the listenership is 50% male, 50% female. And the Huberman husbands thing, um, was really about how a, a woman was saying that she thinks she's the Huberman husband because she does all these different things that, uh, we've, we've covered.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:08:46

      But they got taken from that. For the people that don't know-

   5. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:49

      (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson1:08:49

      ... the, the meta meme around Huberman husbands-

   7. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:51

      Right. Right.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:08:51

      ... which you can search on TikTok right now, is that the hot new thing that all of the wives want out there is a husband who's into red light therapy-

   9. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:02

      Oh, great.

   10. CWChris Williamson1:09:02

       ... and he does cold plunges and he does sauna treatments and stuff. So, I, I wondered-

   11. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:06

       See, guys, I'm trying to help you out.

   12. CWChris Williamson1:09:07

       Look, dude-

   13. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:08

       (laughs)

   14. CWChris Williamson1:09:08

       I, I wondered how you feel of a bunch of guys potentially cosplaying as Andrew Huberman in the bedroom. Like, the price of long-sleeve black shirts has gone through the roof.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:17

       Okay, th- this is it.

   16. CWChris Williamson1:09:18

       You now have people fully LARPing as you. Maybe they're, they're telling their, telling their wife that they didn't get enough sunlight in their eyes as dirty talk in the bedroom. I'm not sure. I wondered how it feels to have this army of Andrew Hubermans from Wish now existing on, on the internet.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:33

       So, so we covered the AMCC. It means anterior mid-cingulate cortex. But I confess, even though I know that, I don't know what cosplay is-

   18. CWChris Williamson1:09:41

       (laughs)

   19. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:41

       ... and I don't know what LARPing is.

   20. CWChris Williamson1:09:43

       Cosplay is dressing up. It's, it happens at, um, a lot of conventions. Someone will go as Anakin S- Skywalker or Pikachu or whatever, and LARPing is like-

   21. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:52

       For, for sexual titillation?

   22. CWChris Williamson1:09:54

       Sometimes, but not always. Uh, titillation...

   23. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:56

       So, this has sort of been like a, this is the, this is like the action hero, um, variation on furries?

   24. CWChris Williamson1:10:02

       Kind of.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:03

       Okay.

   26. CWChris Williamson1:10:03

       Yeah, but it's not-

   27. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:04

       Furries is more Lex's domain.

   28. CWChris Williamson1:10:06

       G- precisely.

   29. AHAndrew Huberman1:10:06

       Right.

   30. CWChris Williamson1:10:06

       Yeah, we know, we know that well. Uh, and then LARPing is-

Episode duration: 3:04:10