Understanding The Modern Dating Economy - James Bloodworth | Modern Wisdom Podcast 370

1. 0:00 – 0:20

   Intro

   1. JBJames Bloodworth0:00

      So men, I think, are often fed this narrative that masculinity is inherently toxic, which I think is- can be very damaging. But then they go out into the sexual marketplace, they go out to a bar, they go onto an app, and it's the guys who are stereotypically masculine which tend to be doing better when it comes to dating. So i- it throws up this kind of cognitive dissonance. Like, what is going on here?

   2. CWChris Williamson0:19

      Why

2. 0:20 – 11:19

   Economics of Dating

   1. CWChris Williamson0:20

      is calling the dating market the dating economy a good term?

   2. JBJames Bloodworth0:25

      Um, I- I'm not sure it's a good term. I mean, it's- it's- it seems very, um... It seems slightly brutal to- to look at the dating, romance and our ideas of romance to turn it into some kind of economic exchange. Um, I th- but I think it can be useful. I think it can be a useful way to... It can be a useful metaphor for- for some of the things that are going on in- in the world of dating. And I think it- it can be a useful metaphor for people who aren't in that dating market at the moment. Say, older, typically older people who are married or who grew up in a very different era when very different social norms prevailed. I think the idea of- of a dating economy, uh, can be a useful way to convey to them some of the inequalities that exist now. And I sp- and- and the final point, really, is with dating apps you have actual data, um, on what men's and women's preferences are. So it- it- it, that can, that can be put in spreadsheets so it's kind of a, it is kind of an economy.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:21

      Yeah. Well, you're hearing more, sort of economic language around this stuff now. People are scored out of 10. You have algorithms that are manipulating people's, uh, ranks on dating accounts. There are like sexual market value is a term that's often used in men's right spaces around the relative age to attractiveness graph that goes on. So it kind of, it kind of does make sense. And yeah, I suppose communicating it to people who found their, found their partner a very long time ago, they need something to be able to bridge the gap between their dating world and ours, which is essentially a different universe.

   4. JBJames Bloodworth2:00

      Yeah. A- and I mean, there is a dark side to it as well, though. I think there's- there's a dark side to, um, treating it as an economy. And- and- and treating it in this very like deterministic fashion, um, quantitative fashion, where you- you ascribe these certain characteristics of someone, say like a Chad. So like th- the good-looking Chad guy. And that, you know, that's the person who- who- who gets with women and then this other person who doesn't look the right way, uh, doesn't. You know, they have no chance. It's over, a- as some of the incels say. I think that kind of determinism can tend to creep into it, um, when it's seen as like an economy. Whereas in, like w- in reality, like dating is, it's not, you know, a market where there's certain laws which exist. It's- it's- there's- there's nuances, aren't there? Like someone doesn't, um... Yeah, it's too- too simplistic, too- too deterministic.

   5. CWChris Williamson2:54

      I'd agree. So since 2008, the number of American men under 30 reporting no sex has nearly tripled. Why do you think that is?

   6. JBJames Bloodworth3:03

      I think there's, uh, more than one factor, of course. I mean, I think the- the most obvious one, like historic one, would be the shift from like a monogamous culture to what we have today, which is, today is, I wouldn't call it hookup culture, say. I think today it's a mixture. Some people are very engaged with dating apps and- and hookups, but I- I think a lot of people do still, um, want to pursue like a more traditional route. But I think that- that's one big change. So whereas in the past you had, you lived in a small community, um, you tended to pair off with someone suitable for you, um, women didn't have the same earning power they had. So women were- were more restricted, unfortunately, in- in like who they could, um, choose to date because they tended to have to marry who their family approved of because of f- financial reasons. Um, so that would be the first reason. That's no, that- that culture is no longer really as strong as it was in the past. So w- women don't need to settle down with men they're not attracted to, basically. Um, the second reason, I suppose, is I think dating apps have made a big difference because... And when I say dating apps, I also mean apps like Instagram, um, because I think this idea that- that how you present yourself is also, is almost more important than the su- your substance as a per- person. So like, if you know how to present yourself properly, um, I think you can do really well in- in today's like dating economy. Even if you don't necessarily have the attributes of the- the Chad or whatever. But I think, um, if you, most people don't- don't know that, I don't think, and, um, that makes it very hard for them to kind of win by more than 50%, I think, of people who, young couples who get together nowadays, it's they met on a dating app. So if you don't know how to present yourself through a screen, if you're not photogenic, um, if you can't convey things like status or, uh, good looks or- or whatever resources, um, social dominance or whatever, over a, over a photo or- or profile, I think then you have a really hard time. And so, um, you're in the house looking at porn because that, they are easy alternatives as well, so, to kind of satiate you, so you don't need to go out and, uh, risk rejection.

   7. CWChris Williamson5:07

      More than 50% of couples met online?

   8. JBJames Bloodworth5:11

      Yeah. It's- it's- it's- it's, you- you'd assume that anyway now, I think, because I mean, anyone... I- I met my girlfriend on- on Hinge. Um, my friends, they're- they're, the people they're meeting, it tends to be on dating apps. It's, there's still bar stuff, you know, you still meet people in bars and stuff, until the pandemic, but it's, apps are just an easier option.

   9. CWChris Williamson5:31

      Mm. Yeah, it's an interesting one, man, thinking about what that means, what that does to us as a- as a society. I think that you're right, this kind of, this desire to be able to understand everything creeps in from other- other areas, right? So science tries to explain the entire world in terms of concepts, and then we want to be able to add that sort of deterministic, reductionist, rationalist perspective to dating as well. "Okay, so what am I out of 10? What height am I at? How many matches have I got on Tinder? Where do I sit in my sexual market value?" All of these things seem to sort of coalesce.

   10. JBJames Bloodworth6:04

       Yeah. And it- and it- and it- even going back to say, like, the- the pickup artists in the- so Neil Strauss, right? The- The- The Game, in like 2005, I think it was. And, um, even around that kind of scene, it was- it kind of was really about nerds basically, socially awkward men, trying to put the kind of- treat it like engineering, treat it like- treat- treat dating like you're an engineer or you're... So, you know, you put this wire in here or you press this button and then you get this response, and kind of quantify everything and remove the, like, uncertainty. Because the- the pain is in the uncertainty, isn't it? When you, when you first go out with someone, when you first approach someone to start a conversation or something, it's- it's, uh, fear of rejection. It's- it's, you know, terrifying. So if you can kind of quantify everything, so, uh, you can figure out, you know, if you take this move then- then this outcome will happen or it gives you a- a rationale for just giving up. So within selves, it's, uh, I think there's a- there's a kind of misanthropic, uh, aspect to some of it where you kind of- you kind of self-flagellate yourself and- and get something from that. And these doctrines, like the black pill tell you, "Oh, it's over. You know, there's no point even trying." And there is a kind of a weird freedom in that, you know, just like a nihilism.

   11. CWChris Williamson7:19

       Legitimates your suffering. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   12. JBJames Bloodworth7:21

       Like a nihilism, like, "Screw the world," you know?

   13. CWChris Williamson7:23

       Mm.

   14. JBJames Bloodworth7:24

       Or not, in this case. Fuck the world. Fuck the world.

   15. CWChris Williamson7:26

       (laughs) What do you think it says that a lot of the guys that were part of that fratire pickup artistry community 10 to 15 years ago are in really weird places now? So Neil Strauss has had the biggest 180 ever and seems to be sort of super happily married. Um, that mystery guy, uh, I don't know where he's gone. That Roosh V, he's now, like, a born again Christian or something. Tucker Max, the guy that invented fratire, the entire fratire genre, he's now, uh, like a- a paragon of MDMA psychotherapy and went to psychotherapy every day for five years and now he's self- helping people to self-publish books, like David Goggins. What do you think that says? Is that just guys growing up? Is that just mistakes that you make when you're single and then the wrangling effect of a relationship? Or is there something else going on there?

   16. JBJames Bloodworth8:20

       I mean, different- different for the- different cases. So I mean, I think different things are going on. And there's also, you know, a big part of the- what used to be, like, the pickup community is now in- moved into, like, self-help and- and, um, personal development of, you know, a spiritual- supposedly like a spiritual kind of transformation and stuff. Um, I think one reason I think this happened... So I mean, I've seen people from that- that old community on videos, you know, doing anti-vax stuff as well and that kind of thing. You know, the- calling it the plandemic and things like that. Um, which I think- I think part of that comes from a- an initial distrust of the mainstream. So if we go back to say like 2005 when- when Neil Strauss published his book, the reason- one of the reasons a lot- like, lots of men were kind of drawn to the- the pickup artist stuff, I think, um... And I- you know, when it first came out, I was interested in this. You know, I- I- I sucked with just social skills in general when I was, like, 22, 23. And I think a lot of people got drawn into that because what the mainstream told young people and- men and women about romance was kind of- you kind of started to see through it as you- as you reach your kind of teens, early 20s. And, you know, it didn't just happen. You know, fate didn't take care of it. Uh, the- the- being nice, you know, being a gentleman, being chivalrous- a chivalrous gentleman, it wasn't, uh... You know, the girls, they didn't- weren't interested in you, like, in- in college or whatever. And it was the- you know, it's the cliche. Like, the- the guy who was kind of a dick who seemed to (laughs) who seemed to be the one who- who got with the- with the attractive girls. And not necessarily 'cause he was a dick, but there was- there was, you know, other things going on there. But I think lots of people who got into the- the PUA- PUA and pickup stuff, they saw this mainstream narrative, you know, heard their parents telling them, "Oh, just, like, be nice and you'll meet someone." And it- they just saw right through it and then there was a void there. And then the- the kind of pickup artists stepped in and said, you know, "This..." You know, they- they actually said that some of the dating is counterintuitive, um, like flirting, for example. Um, but there was this toxic side to all of that, too. Um, and I think, um... I forgot- I've kind of forgotten where I'm going with this. But I think that-

   17. CWChris Williamson10:31

       But just where's that- where- wh- why have we seen these people from their pivot into these incredibly sort of different lives, you know, only 10 years later?

   18. JBJames Bloodworth10:42

       Yeah. I mean, I think, yeah, distrust of the mainstream. So you've seen that kind of- that- that whole trajectory from pickup to, like, self-help to some of the religious, like, weirdness that- that this guy Roosh V... I mean, he was a very toxic example right away through, uh, in my opinion. So, um, but I think the distrust of the mainstream has- has propelled these people into different, um, cults basically. Um, and- and part of that is because the mainstream does talk rubbish on dating advice. And I think pickup and- was- was sort of a reaction to that, um, even though, you know, it was- it was itself quite toxic in many ways.

3. 11:19 – 19:40

   Dating in Modern Society

   1. JBJames Bloodworth11:19

   2. CWChris Williamson11:19

      You spent a fair bit of time last year speaking to people on a podcast about the modern dating economy. What were some of the more surprising insights that you weren't ready for during your research for that?

   3. JBJames Bloodworth11:30

      Um, I suppose... I mean, I've always been kind of o- optimistic about people's, uh, potentials to, like, self-improve in some ways. Like, the average per- average person. I know people have different problems and stuff. But I think, um, yeah, someone- someone of, like, average looks, average kind of abilities can, like, go to the gym and, like, improve themselves a bit and things will get easier in terms of, like, dating. Um, but I- I suppose, speaking to people on the podcast, there was- there was a couple of conversations where I kind of- I spoke to- to- to someone about lookism. I had a conversation about lookism.

   4. CWChris Williamson12:06

      What's that?

   5. JBJames Bloodworth12:06

      Uh-So it's, it's discrimination based on what people look like. So we all, we, we all do that in, in dating, but it's, it's, it's kind of across other areas. So, you know, you earn less over a lifetime if you, um, uh, uh, uh, stereo- uh, are stereotypically less attractive and you earn more over a lifetime if you are ster- stereotypically attractive. Um, I kind of learnt more about how, how deep that is in society, how deep the kind of ... how deeply we, we often treat ... how differently we often treat, you know, uh, stereotypically good-looking people from, from those who aren't so, so fortunate in that way. Um, and also, you know, I think a lot of the advice to- given to incels can be condescending when it comes from that kind of self-development, self-help space. So, um, I had a conversation with William Costello, who's, who's done some writing on, research on, on incels, and he, he, you know, he's recorded that, that one of the things that's most often said to incels is, "Oh, just lift, just lift bro. You know, go to the gym and that'll solve your problems." And, um, you know, just, just go out to the bar and, and if your, you know, pickup artist told them to just go out to a bar and just start approaching. But then there's a bit of, kind of arrogance to that because we don't understand always there's, there's some of the issues that some of these people are going through. So you have people with physical deformities, you have people with, you know, 20, 20% I think of people on the in the incel community, uh, have, have Asperger's or, or high-functioning autism. Um, so I mean, just telling someone to go out to a bar, um, and socialize or go to the gym is, you know, sometimes it's harder for those people.

   6. CWChris Williamson13:38

      Mm. Yeah, that was what came up w- speaking to Nama on the podcast as well, that the languages in the worlds that people, different people exist in, they don't work anymore. The pieces of advice that previously we would've got from our parents or from modern dating doesn't under stand. But then as you get more and more nuanced, they don't understand the challenges either. There was another one that I thought was really interesting talking about the differences between men and women. 17% of young people think approaching anyone is harassment, but also 90% of women-

   7. JBJames Bloodworth14:12

      (laughs) .

   8. CWChris Williamson14:12

      ... want the man to approach first. How can those two things exist at the same time?

   9. JBJames Bloodworth14:17

      Yeah, I mean, there's a weird kind of, um, cognitive dissonance, dissonance in the culture generally, I think, when it comes to dating at the moment. So that's one example where, um, you have a ... Thing is, I mean, th- I s- that, that 17% or whatever, that's, like, people, th- they're, they're all online because it seems like that's ... If you're on Twitter or something, um, and you've even suggested, you know, approaching someone you're interested in just, you know, in a bar or something, or a, you know, coffee shop or whatever, they would say that's, you know, borderline harassment already. It's this weird ... But then if you go out into, into the real world, I mean, people are still meeting like that. People are still, it's still happening, but there's this weird, like, discourse online which pretends, um, which scolds anyone who would, who would dare to, to do such a thing. Um, I think that's ... I think there is a, there is an issue for men in terms of, um ... Me- so, so men don't often perceive how uncomfortable they make women feel. They often don't. Um, uh, there was a, a recent book by David, David Buss, the evolutionary psychologist.

   10. CWChris Williamson15:17

       Yeah, he's been on. It was amazing.

   11. JBJames Bloodworth15:19

       Yeah. His, his, his work is really interesting and his book, Bad Men, uh, he talked about, you know, the, the kind of empathy gap where if a woman's, like, approached by, by these creepy guys, then the men doing ... the men being creepy will often not understand that they're being creepy. There's th- there's like empathy gap and, uh, they don't understand how uncomfortable they're making the woman feel. So I mean, I think there are, there are ... I, I think there's a backlash against that and women are kind of demanding, in many cases, not to be harassed or even talked to in, in the public kind of space. Um, but I, but I think there's a bal- there's obv- an obvious balance, like, um, there's a way, there's a way to go and start a conversation with someone and there's a way not to do it. I think common sense is like, most people outside of the kind of Twitter, weird, you know, ideological tower, ivory tower, understand what's creepy and what's not, at least on one level. Um, but yeah, there's, there's this kind of weird, uh, ideological cognitive dissonance at the moment.

   12. CWChris Williamson16:16

       It is strange because I, I understand you want to ... you don't wanna get people into a situation where they're made, made to feel uncomfortable. Nobody wants that. No one ... And least of all as a guy. You don't want to be the guy that makes someone feel uncomfortable either. But on the flip side, 90% of women want the man to approach first, and this is something that keeps on coming up. Desire and the market always kind of manifests everyone's truth forward. So for instance, when companies talk about o- o- uh, social justice activists talk about perhaps, um, let's say the, the perils of fast fashion. That I can't believe that these companies are selling these clothes for so cheap and they're damaging the environment and they're hurting the workers, but then when you look at what those girls wear o- on their nights out, they'll happily go on Pretty Little Thing and grab themselves a dress for 10 pounds. So the market always seems to kind of find where people's real truths lay, and then the same thing seems to happen in dating too, that in some ideologically pure environment where we try and nerf any discomfort out of the world, yeah, maybe there are situations in which ... And maybe the safest world that we could exist in is one where no man ever walks up to a woman because that means that no woman can ever be made to feel uncomfortable, but it also means that most women are not going to feel like they're desired and desire is a really important thing. So yeah, you do have these sort of conflicting ideologies bouncing up against each other.

   13. JBJames Bloodworth17:42

       Yeah. And, and I think there's, there's ... It's very hard to have a conversation about inequalities in the dating, quote unquote, market. It's, it's ver- I find this very, um, hard to have conversations with when it's with people who haven't, like, studied this in some way or who, who haven't taken an interest in it. So they're just looking at it from, like, a personal perspective. I find with guys, there's ... Like, a lot of guys have a lot of ego around, um, around this stuff so, you know, they, they, they may have met their signifi- significant other, you know, in an o- in an old-fashioned way, like through, through college or through work or something.Um, but then they believe that, you know, if they wanted to, they have the so- they have the social skills to go and meet, you know, in a bar, just walk up to someone and, and talk, start s- a conversation, whatever. And so they kind of sneer at the incels and, and, um, you know, throw the insult "incel" around everywhere, um, to kind of show that they're superior to those people. Whereas if they were in the same context incels are in now, um, th- you know, they just, they literally got lucky in, in that situation. And so there's kind of an ego attached to discussing, uh, some of these things. I think women are reluctant to discuss, um, like dating inequality, partly because I think there's a legitimate fear of a regression to some of the kind of socially conservative norms of the past. The o- Like, in particular, the ones which, which, which didn't give women m- much freedom because, you know, it sought to control their sexuality. I think there's, there's a fear on the part of women to, to kind of look at dating inequalities because there's an aspect of that which feels to them like, um, we're blaming women for their choices, you know, for not choosing the nice, the nice, uh, the nice guy who works in insurance or whatever. Um, but for like, for like, going off with like Chad who has a motorbike, um, I think there's an element of, um... 'Cause I think that's too deterministic as well, but I think women fear, um, that conversation taking center stage because then you then get a movement which tries to put women back into this box, uh, where they don't have any sexual freedom at all.

4. 19:40 – 37:14

   Why Sexual Inequality is Ignored

   1. JBJames Bloodworth19:40

   2. CWChris Williamson19:40

      Yeah. I- in a world where inequality is quite in vogue and, and applauded at the moment, why do you think sexual inequality is one of these ones that just isn't, apart from the desire of women not to be put back into a sort of a, a trad world, which is perfectly legitimate?

   3. JBJames Bloodworth19:59

      I think, I think partly because the... Like, what's the, what would the remedy be? I mean, there is... I mean, there's... The, the remedies are, are individual. So the remedy, if you're... So I mean, the remedy, if you're someone who's like struggling, uh, to... If you're a, if you're a guy who's struggling to get any kind of date or anything, I mean, there is really no other remedy than kind of individual work on yourself in some ways, like, or just focusing on other things. So, so work on yourself, you know, basic self-improvement stuff I think s- kind of holds true. Like, go to the gym, get some hobbies, improve your social skills and like find ways to start talking and conversing with people so your, so your social muscle, like, builds more. I mean, and, and also I would say just like focus on other stuff because, uh, th- I think one of the problems is there is a kind of... So th- when the fem- when the feminists talk about this issue, what they are right about is, uh, the, the, the way men treat each other based on how many people the, uh, m- how many women the man's had sex with. It's like we hold men in much higher esteem, typically, uh, culturally, if they're seen as someone who, you know, um, has, you know, gets with women or whatever. It's, it's, you know, you'll see... A- and whereas if you're not, you're insulted as, you know, in the pl- from the playground ages like a virgin or an incel. Now, and I think, um, if, if men... I think men kind of have to move away from that value system a bit because it's, it's, it's quite, um... There are lots of problems with it, but one of them is if you, if you happen to be at the, the lower end of that hierarchy and you're attaching so much value to, to the fact that, to your, to your ability to, to get in a partnership or whatever, you think that that's the be all and end all of life. I think that, that makes it worse. I mean, there is a, there is a, there is something to be said for, you know, focusing on some vocation or whatever instead. And, and then funnily enough, paradoxically, I think people are more attractive when they do that as well. They b- they gain status, they become, uh, more attractive people because they have ambition and drive and whatever.

   4. CWChris Williamson21:55

      Mm. It's, it's a weird one because I think a lot of women judge other women's looks more harshly than men do because they're able to see the finer points of that dress with those earrings and those nails are shit or whatever, and then men judge other men's status and resources and sexual conquest. Now, the consequences are more important to the other side because that kind of gets to work out where you are hypergamously within the hierarchy for each different gender, but a lot of the discomfort actually gets delivered from your own side, right? You get the, the pain about not pulling or being a virgin or an incel or whatever from your own side, more so from the other. And the same thing goes for, for looks with women that a lot of the criticisms I think that women have around beauty standards for women, the, the finger needs to be pointed very heavily at women for creating these beauty standards for each other.

   5. JBJames Bloodworth22:49

      Yeah, I mean, I, I, I think there's kind of an element of, of intrer- intrasexual competition. So like pulling other women down. And men do it as well, just in a, in, you know, a different way. They, they, they berate them for, for kind of different, different things, um, and try and kind of, um, subvert their kind of masculinity and, and belittle them, uh, for that. But I think it's... Um, I mean, I, I think there's... We, we've come from like a- an era where there were, where there were all these norms around, um, you know, marriage and the nuclear family, and many of those were quite, quite sexist and stuff. And now you've got, you've got the kind of residual memory of that. So you've got a generation above us, um, who, who that was completely normal. And, and, and those attitudes they still pass on to, to their, to their kids and stuff. And, um, we have a, a more liberal, which I think is generally a good thing, uh, sexual climate now, where the same ideas are, are kind of, um, transmitted to, to young men who aren't very successful. That, you know, oh, if you, if you don't, um, if you aren't finding someone to settle down with or if you aren't sleeping with all these women, you're, you're basically a loser and a virgin and an incel. I think that's, uh, I think that's, yeah, that's incredibly toxic. And I think that's, um... An- an- and, and apps like Instagram and, and whatnot where you see the rise of influencers like Dan Bilzerian, it's, um, it, it kind of elevates even more this idea that, that, that the kind of the really successful man is the person with a, with like a harem of, of, of women or whatever, the polygynous. And, you know, that's not necessarily a very good outcome for the, for the women, uh-... either because they're, they're treated as kind of, uh, props in that kind- in that scenario.

   6. CWChris Williamson24:27

      What are some of the challenges that women have in the modern dating market?

   7. JBJames Bloodworth24:31

      I think the, the age-old one of, of threat of violence. So, um, the risks ... So, I don't know, going out on, on a date with someone new for, for us on, on like, an app or something, it wouldn't really cross our mind that s- that like, our head could end up on a stick at the end of the night or something. It's, it's like there's ... that, that wouldn't even like, I wouldn't even think about that, generally. Uh-

   8. CWChris Williamson24:52

      You're not bothered about whether she's putting something in your drink, yeah.

   9. JBJames Bloodworth24:55

      I did have a stalker. Well, I do, I do kind of have a stalker. So, it's like, probably shouldn't say it, but it's still, it's, um ... I don't think the f- the fear of physical violence isn't, isn't like the same. Um, so no, I think that's obviously for women, that's, that's the biggest challenge. I think also, now you have on, on dating apps, there's a level of inequality. So there's a s- a ... Like th- the data we have is like, a relatively small percentage of men, like 10, 20%, um, whatever it is, tend to be the ones getting most of the matches, and then the average male is, is not, not doing that well, uh, you know, just, just a few matches. And I think for w- for women on the one hand, that's good because they're now, they now have a wider pool of, of people to kind of shoot their shot at. So if you're a woman on a dating app, um, you can actually try, you can actually start a conversation with the higher-status guy who maybe lives in the city when you live in the country or whatever, and you can at least have a shot at that. But I think it can be bad for women because I think they then get used by a lot of those, those, those men. And not necessarily ... Like, women can enjoy, you know, casual hookups with, as much as, as much as men. And, and that's, um ... Yeah, I mean, that's, that's, um ... I think what, what we're get- society is beginning to accept that more now. But it's also, I think they often date these guys in the hope of a relationship and then the guys string them along and then they end up kind of using them. So I think, um, women can get the raw end of the, uh, can get a raw deal, um, yeah, across the board. It seems to be the Chads who do the best, uh, the so-called Chads who do the best out of the dating app economy.

   10. CWChris Williamson26:28

       There's only them that have won-

   11. JBJames Bloodworth26:30

       (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson26:30

       ... as far as I can see. So yeah, I would, I would agree and say that more choice for women, more liberation, fewer judgments around sexual sort of freedom. Yeah. Those are good things. But as women become higher status, better educated with more resources, they want to date up and across, but as men can't keep up with the women that are now starting to outperform them, the women, all they really have left to do is to have an ever-increasing group of women competing for an ever-decreasing group of high-performing, high-status men, or to date someone that fundamentally they're slightly less attracted to. And if you've been through the dating pool on Tinder and you have had a hookup or a couple of hookups with these super high-value men, you're now ... You've got this sort of comparison game going on where you think, "Well this was, this was what I got before, therefore I can get it again," but the paradigm within which that worked, like it's hookup versus relationship, and then that creates resentment amongst some of the guys as well. I've had comments on previous videos from people saying that it's the duty of guys to, young single guys, to find a woman at 22 or 23 and settle down with them because going through a laundry list of girls, you know, every six months or whatever, throughout your 20s is effectively tying up their reproductive capability, uh, so that they, they aren't ... This is monogamy as a sexual redistribution strategy, right? Like that, if it's one man to one woman, then it enables more men to have sex with more, with the equal number of women that they have. But, um, yeah, it's a challenge, man. This whole thing's got so messy. And who would have known? You know, who knew that downstream from women being able to, quite rightly, learn as much as they want and earn as much as they want and move up within organizations and gain status and buy houses and do stuff like that, most women don't want to date a man that doesn't work. I think you ... This was a stat I learned from you, that only like 10 or 15% of women would ever consider dating a man who's either part-time employed or not employed at all. Um, all of these things are challenges. All of these things are, are really difficult.

   13. JBJames Bloodworth28:35

       Yeah. Uh, uh, I think there's, there's a question of, of both men and women recognizing certain ... I don't ... Like, I mean, as, as much as this is, I hope this is possible, but men and women kind of recognizing certain biological, like, drives in terms of, um, finding someone of higher status or a man, you know, being attracted to ... You know, like a, a 40-year-old man, you still pursuing, you know, 25-year-old women or whatever. But there's-

   14. CWChris Williamson28:59

       I've got some friend, I've got some friends that are like that. Yeah.

   15. JBJames Bloodworth29:02

       Yeah. But I mean, there's, there's kind of, um ... (laughs) There's kind of two ... There's, there's kind of some things which, which we know kind of, there's a tendency towards. So, so if you ... There's surveys with like, men from the ages of, um, you know, 20 to, to 40 or whatever, they s- ... The age of the women they're attracted to stays around the same. It's like, it doesn't ... So when they're, when they're 20, it's like 23-year-old women, or when they're, when they're 40, it's still a 23-year-old woman or whatever. But it's like, it doesn't mean you have to actually do that. It's like, it doesn't mean it's, it's, it's morally a good thing for someone who's, um, you know, a married person to just keep trading in for like, a younger partner. There's something kind of very shallow, very immoral, immoral about that. Um, and there's something ... You know, our society in general, it, it kind of reflects something in our society in general where everything is seen as like, disposable, including your, your significant other, where you just throw it away and kind of buy ... Essentially buy, like buy a new one or, or replace it with something newer and shinier. In many cases of these people, yeah, it probably is buy, buy another one. Um, but I, I think ... It doesn't mean you have to actually, like, live that. And the culture, I think makes a big difference as well. And for women, um, it's, you know ... Yeah, there ... Like, there may be an aspect of, of biology which kind of, um, put- moves them towards pursuing, uh, the, the higher-status, uh, man in the community or, or who's accessible.... but is that always the- it should, it should cul- the culture encourage that or should it say, you know, there are other values that are important as well? Because I think those things do make a difference.

   16. CWChris Williamson30:31

       It's gonna be hard to make, "Don't go for..." Like, "You don't deserve the best."

   17. JBJames Bloodworth30:37

       Yes.

   18. CWChris Williamson30:37

       Like, you know, this whole kind of-

   19. JBJames Bloodworth30:39

       "You're worth it."

   20. CWChris Williamson30:40

       Yeah. Yeah, "You're no- you're, you're worth slightly less than you think you are," is like the (laughs) message to take from that. But there's this whole sort of, "Don't settle, no settling, clapping back, be a boss bitch." These sorts of things don't lend themselves toward women being accepting of, of challenges with a partner. And if you have finally managed to get a guy that is of the right status with everything else, I don't know if you can... Culturally, I don't think that the layer, the, the layering of completely, um, ridding us of, how would you say, evolved cultural wisdom that a, a, a single relationship be attractive to many partners but choose one. Um, o- uh, dispensing with that whilst also saying that you should get whatever you want. I think that these two things provide a, a very difficult dating market, specifically for women, more so than for men.

   21. JBJames Bloodworth31:31

       Hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think we're moving the other way as well. So it's, I think we're still moving in the opposite direction where, um, where, you know, it, it... We're, we're not moving back towards, you know, a more monogamous culture. We're moving more to a place where... I think social media is an interesting one here in terms of how it's, like, expanded the dating pool. So, um, if you have an app like Instagram, um, f- for like, say, a relatively attractive woman who lives in, like, a small town or something, um, if she gains some kind of Instagram clout, she's gonna have access to a much wider pool of men, you know, low-key celebrities and, and whatnot, than she would in... She's gonna have the blue ticks, like, sliding into her, into her DMs and, and whatnot. So she's now got access to, to those potential partners in a way that she, like, didn't, wouldn't have had in the past. Um, and I think that's... As technology kind of increases, it's, the, the, the purpose of technology in our economy now is to kind of, um, create more choice for us, to, to, to expand our choice potential. Um, and so there is a, there is kind of encouragement to kinda have it all, to pursue the absolute top thing. Um, but also, the, what's considered, you know, status or high-status, a lot of that is conditioned by the culture. So if we look at good looks for example, there's a stat from... So I think every decade since the 1930s, um, every decade... No, not... Every decade since the television age, uh, people have, have attached more status to good looks in a partner than previously. So every decade since whenever TVs were, were, went like mass market, um, people, you know, you, you... They're attracted to, to certain good looks, but it's also there's status attached to looks as well. And I think-

   22. CWChris Williamson33:14

       Why do you think that is?

   23. JBJames Bloodworth33:17

       Because, I, I think, you know, uh, presentation. So, so in a... If you move from an economy where it's print-based to, to where it's all on a screen, you have the rise of politicians like JFK, for example, telegenic, charismatic. Um, and I think that, that, that means then status becomes attached to those, those qualities, and that feeds over into dating as well, and I think dating apps have accentuated that even more. So when I was, when I was coming up in, in the, the mid-2000s as, as like a teenager or an early 20-something, y- uh, you know, I wasn't, I wasn't doing very well with the, uh, with the opposite sex at that time. But there was... I was never worried about something like my height. Like I'm like, what? 5'11", I think. But it was never like, "Oh, you've gotta be six foot," or something like that. That to me is something that's been... It was always there a little bit, but it's been kind of, um, formalized from the culture around dating apps, and I think the same is true about certain types of good looks. So, um, the importance of being good-looking, the status attached to it is more now, one, because things happen through a screen often, the first impression, but also 'cause, because women have more economic independence, so, um, can freely choose more. They don't have to necessarily think about how much money the person has, um, if they're attractive, if they're physically attractive.

   24. CWChris Williamson34:34

       Are there some intersecting groups of feminists at the moment? I don't really understand how all of feminism is fragmented, but I imagine that some groups are kind of happy with the direction in which things are going and others kind of wanna turn things around. Have you looked at any of this?

   25. JBJames Bloodworth34:54

       Um, I mean, yeah. I mean, I, I don't think anyone's... I mean, the, the... I guess with activists, no one's ever happy with the direction things are going, I mean, are going, because otherwise you cease to become an activist, and what the hell would you do with your time then if everything's, everything's fine already? Um, you sound like a neo- neoliberal then. But, um, no, I think, I think, yeah, it varies. So I mean, sex-positive feminists tend to see, uh, hookup culture as, as you know bro- sexual freedom as broadly a good thing. And in some ways, I think, I think they're right. I think it's, um, I think, you know... I, I, I adhere to the basic kind of princi- liberal principles on that. I think people should be free to kind of get, get together with who they want. Um, the radical feminists, it tends to be more of a... There's, there's more of a kind of anti-pornography campaign and anti-prostitution campaigns going on at the moment. I think is, um... Yeah, again, I, I agree with aspects of that as well. I think, um... I don't think it's, it's inherently good just like the commodification of people's bodies and, and the idea that there's, that pleasure is all that there is in life. I think there is like a deeper, a deeper reason to be with someone, for example. Um, and then you have like the traditionalists, the, the trads, the trad, uh, the, the trad wing of the feminist movement, which is, um, just a, just like opposed by everything. Um.

   26. CWChris Williamson36:11

       (laughs)

   27. JBJames Bloodworth36:12

       But, uh, but it... But yeah, like, but, but that's their role, I suppose. But, but they're, but, but then they're not completely wrong either. I mean, I think there's a... As we've talked about, I think many women get a raw deal from, from hookup culture, um. I also think, um... Yeah, I think there's something to be said, there's, there's kind of a deeper meaning...... uh, to, to being with someone than just, like, gratification, I think. Be it building, like, a connection, building a deeper bond, building something, um, meaningful, I think is, I think there is an importance to that. I'm not, I don't subscribe to the, to the whole, um, you know, progressive thing that s- you know, is ostensibly anti-capitalist but yet treats other human beings as if they're completely, like, disposable and you can just swap one person out for someone else. I think sometimes, uh, it's, it's much, there's much more, kind of, value to be built in building a longer connec- a bigger connection.

   28. CWChris Williamson37:04

       It's like that story of the blind men and the elephant, isn't it? It's-

   29. JBJames Bloodworth37:08

       (laughs)

   30. CWChris Williamson37:09

       L- some of them, everyone's touching a different part and someone has got a little bit of truth within their own different domain.

5. 37:14 – 43:17

   Will It Be Harder to Create a Family?

   1. CWChris Williamson37:14

      Yeah, man. I, so I'm really, really fascinated with what we see next. Like, what happens, how, how we move forward from this position with sort of increasing sexual liberation but a biological compulsion to have a family. You know, you have to be, no matter how culturally deprogrammed you think things need to get, you have to be an incredibly unique man or woman, I think, to make it to 50 without a partner or a family and say that, look back and say that it was a good, a good decision. That's not to say that there aren't people out there for whom that is correct. But to make it to that stage, you are an outlier, like, by definition. You would've been, your, your genes would not have made it through, so that is, that is by definition an outlier perspective. But it seems that finding families and creating families is going to get more difficult. I, I don't know if you agree.

   2. JBJames Bloodworth38:03

      Yeah, I mean, I, I think in some ways the kind of, i- i- a- aside from the kind of, um, the, the actual incels or whatever, I think the, the kind of dating environment now, it c- can also create, like, a, a, like an, uh, aura, like a halo or like a penumbra of insecurity around, uh, existing relationships because there's so much choice potential on an app, on Twitter, on-

   3. CWChris Williamson38:26

      Could have always done a little bit better. You've got it in the back of your mind.

   4. JBJames Bloodworth38:30

      Yeah, so there's, there's stats in one of David Buss's books again, which is, talks about how, um, when we're exposed to a partner who's, who's more attractive than, than, than, than our other ... When we're exposed to, uh, uh, a partner who's, someone in the me- social media who's more attractive than our partner, we, we tend to become, you know, if someone asks us questions about them, we tend to s- give less committed answers to this partner, so, "Oh, you know, it's not that serious," or whatever. There's, there's, there's quite big studies on this. And when we're ex- and our satisfaction goes down with our current partner. So when we're exposed all the time to these, um, images of, of so-called perfection, many of them not even real, many of it's, you know, many of them are, uh, airbrushed and, and edited and whatever, our kind of ... We, we f- the same, we feel the same way we do with our work or whatever, that, you know, the grass is greener on the other side, that everyone else is living this amazing life while we're ... You know, our life is a real life, you know, it's not perfect. Like, even the people who are on social media, you know, they're, that's not real, but, but there's this perception that it's real, um, at least to some extent. And we feel more dissatisfied with our current partner. So, so the, the environment now with social media, I think it creates this bigger area of insecurity around existing relationships as well, makes that more, like, perilous. Should I get in a relationship because there's, um, you know, there's more opportunity to cheat? I mean, like, one in three ... What is it now? It's, it's like 25%, I think, of men on Tinder have partners already, like girlfriends or wives.

   5. CWChris Williamson39:55

      (laughs)

   6. JBJames Bloodworth39:55

      Or, or are married. It's, it's, uh, it's sort of shock- shocking in a way. There's, like, more opportunity. And yeah, more opportunity to cheat.

   7. CWChris Williamson40:03

      Wasn't there a, you interviewed a lady on your podcast who went for a date directly opposite the apartment block where the man that she was on a date with lived with his missus, and his missus came down and started shouting at them?

   8. JBJames Bloodworth40:15

      Yeah. Uh, yeah, I mean, and, and that's the thing. I think men, for men, I think they should speak to women more about their experiences on dates because, I mean, every, every woman I've been out with in, in the last, like, couple of years I've, I've kind of been curious and talked about their experiences on dating apps and they all have, like, a super weird story, whether it's, like, a weird, like, catfish story or, or, um, yeah things like that where someone, someone's married and then hides it and ... Or just, like, worse, where it's someone who's creepy or pushy or something like that. But, um, yeah, it's, I mean, the internet allows people to conceal, um, conceal their intentions a bit more.

   9. CWChris Williamson40:53

      What's porn doing to dating?

   10. JBJames Bloodworth40:56

       I think porn's making men more, like, apathetic to get to kind of go out there and, and tr- and make the effort to meet someone because it's, you know, it's, um ... I think that's kind of common sense, really. I think that's, that's fairly obvious that if someone has the ... I think going out to meet new people, especially ... So I was someone who was very socially awkward when I was ... Uh, so from, like, 17 till about 22, I didn't have a girlfriend. I lived in, in the countryside, had, like, a lot of social anxiety. Was very, um, I wouldn't say introverted. Shy. So I would be afraid to ... I, I could not imagine going and having a conversation with, with a woman or something. And I think, um, if you're in that situation, I think it's, there's already so much fear around going outside and stuff and you're just kind of, um ... Like, pornography's another reason to kind of stay in. It takes care of one of your basic needs in the way that computer games will stimulate you or there's, there's one less reason to go outside to find stimulation, to find, to, like, engage with the world. It's, it's like a simulation of the world. I think that, that's a big thing. And also, I think it's the, a view of women. There's the obvious points about, I think, um, you see the prevalence of, of men, uh, treating women i- in a certain way, um, in the bedroom because they've seen something in, in, like, a porn film and, um, th- they, they don't, they, they aren't calibrated to whether the woman is, is, you know, that's something they're enjoying and it's, and then, uh ... Yeah, I mean, you, you hear lots of stories from women about this in the media. Like, the pornification of sex, I think that's a problem.And, um, yeah, I mean, and, and just the, the standards. So, so people think that this is the certain standard of beauty, what they see in, in like a porn film. It makes guys feel insecure on the one hand, so they think if they're not the guy in the porn film who they don't know is, you know, taking like some Viagra or whatever, and, um, s- on steroids and (laughs) w- and, and everything else, they, they think that like that's the standard they have to live up to now. So it makes them get like anxiety. And for women it's like they feel the same way sometimes about the porn actresses, that men are ... That's the kinds of women that men desire, so you have to live up to that. I think it can be very harmful. Um, yeah, I think, I, I mean, I'm not sure what I think we'd do about it in terms of like, um, policy or like whether it should be restricted or anything, but I think it can be very harmful.

6. 43:17 – 52:54

   Effects of Porn & OnlyFans

   1. JBJames Bloodworth43:17

   2. CWChris Williamson43:17

      What about porn and sex addiction? You had a conversation about this, right? What did you find out there?

   3. JBJames Bloodworth43:22

      Yeah, I mean, I think, um ... So I have AD- ADHD, so I can get basically easily addicted to anything.

   4. CWChris Williamson43:28

      (laughs)

   5. JBJames Bloodworth43:29

      Anything stimulating. Um, but yeah, I mean, it's with, with kind of, um ... I'm not sure if sex- if I believe there is sex addic- sex addiction, but I think it's more like dopamine addiction, isn't it? So it's, it's kind of ... I, I take medication because there's like a lack of dopamine in my brain and the medication fills the, the dopamine gap in the neurotransmitters. So I mean, if you've ... Um, yeah, I mean, we all like a dopamine hit. So I mean, that's what sex addiction is in a way, just that on steroids or something.

   6. CWChris Williamson44:00

      Yeah, they looked at ... Your guest looked at the pathways, I think, and couldn't find any similarities between the sort of typical addictions that people were finding with drugs and, and that from porn or from sex. But as you said, I think it was Tiger Woods that you used as the example, if you lose your li- night contract because you've cheated on your wife, that's one thing. But if you've lost your night contract because you've got an addiction, then you go to rehab and come back out, that's-

   7. JBJames Bloodworth44:28

      (laughs)

   8. CWChris Williamson44:28

      ... something quite different and you're able to get your po- your sponsorship back. Right? I think-

   9. JBJames Bloodworth44:31

      Yeah. Yeah, I mean, my girlfriend accuses me of using ADHD as an excuse. So it's like, "Oh, I can't help it a bit. I've got ADHD."

   10. CWChris Williamson44:38

       I've got a medical... I got a note from the doctor.

   11. JBJames Bloodworth44:39

       Got a disorder.

   12. CWChris Williamson44:40

       Yeah. What about OnlyFans? What do you think that's doing to men and women's views of each other?

   13. JBJames Bloodworth44:46

       I mean, I think it's, it's ... Uh, like I think it's a sad situation, but not, not in kind of a prudish way. So I mean, I don't really feel like, like shocked. Like, "Oh my God, these, these people are kind of, um, you know, doing this stuff for, like online." It's more just like, first of all, because I think there's an economic critique of it where women feel like the, the, the most valuable asset in society is to just take their clothes off for thirsty men, basically. But then on the other hand, you've got, I think, the, the situation on, on the part of many men is quite sad as well, because with OnlyFans it's not always just pornography. I mean, you have men trying to form intimate connections with, with their "girlfriends", um, and will regularly see the same, same people. And it's the women who've, women who've talked about this often have talked about how, um, the men also want a conversation and want some kind of connection with someone that they don't have in, in, in the real world. So I mean, I think, I think those two things are, are quite kind of depressing kind of comments or commentaries on the, the like atomization of society.

   14. CWChris Williamson45:53

       I think there's something else going on here with regards to women's views of men as purely commodities or p- uh, purely sort of a wallet to open up. And I think that this trickles down. You see this in young girl culture, or at least I do in nightclubs that girls are happy to bounce from table to table. In a nightclub, that's what I do, I run nightclubs, and you see the girls that'll move between the different tables and take drinks from whatever, and they'll stay on the table that's got the most bottles, the biggest one. And you think, "Well, yeah, so part of this is just old school hierarchical resource acquisition and, and trying to get the guy that looks like he's got the most status 'cause he's got the most, the biggest table with the biggest bottles." But I also think there's something else going on, which is that when women are able to make astronomical amounts of money, you know, six figures a month from commodifying themselves, but taking the money out of the pocket of men, quite rightly, there's an argument on one side that says, "Well, men have been the gatekeepers for wealth for far too long, and women are able to take this back." And you go, "Well, yeah, but is it, is it your highest virtue to, to do it at sort of the lowest, most base level of what it is that you have to offer the world?" Like, you know, prostitution's as old as time, but ... And that's not to say that doing sex work online is the same as prostitution, but it's not a million miles away, you know. It's not a million miles away. And I think that ... There was this quote from a buddy of mine who said that, um, just as porn is impacting men's opin- uh, men's, uh, expectations of women, OnlyFans is impacting women's expectations of men. And that, um, you, you mentioned it a couple of times, transient transactional sort of relationship. What can I get out of you for what you want from me? It does seem to kind of encourage that commodification of relationships.

   15. JBJames Bloodworth47:46

       Yes, definitely. And I think, I think there's ... There are feminists, I think, who have a good critique of the OnlyFans phenomenon in the ... Like, you may, you may go on to like OnlyFans and if you're a attractive woman, you make far more money than you'd make in, in your regular job, but you're also helping to perpetuate a culture where a woman's value, highest value is seen just as h- her physical attractiveness. So you, you're, you're kind of, um, you're not helping the sisterhood, so to speak. I think that's a good tr- good, a good critique of it from a feminist perspective, that you're, you're helping to perpetuate this standard, social standard where a woman feels, often feels like her only value is how attractive she is, which does obviously harm women in the long term. It ha- you know, because they'll, they'll ... You, you see this, the, the, the, the quote unquote "shelf life" of, um, women in modeling or, or, you know, music career or whatever.Um, or you know in the, in the, the red pill communities where they talk of women, you know, over 35 as hitting the wall. And, um, but you know, it's, it's, it's an unpleasant term, but it, it speaks to how women lose many of their opportunities in our society when they lose their physical beauty and, and you know, I think only things like Only Fans perpetuate that idea that a women's, a woman's value is atta- attached just to her physical attractiveness.

   16. CWChris Williamson49:07

       Yeah, you are right. There's a, an episode with Heather Heying and Bret Weinstein on Rogan. It was the first one they did together years ago now.

   17. JBJames Bloodworth49:14

       (laughs) .

   18. CWChris Williamson49:14

       And they asked everybody to try and imagine somebody of the opposite sex who is beautiful, but not hot. And then someone that is hot, but not beautiful. And the distinction that they made there was that a lot of modern culture, especially media, magazines, Instagram, so and so forth, they're signaling off hotness not beauty. And hotness wanes with age, whereas beauty can either stay stable or appreciate with age. You know, you think of someone that's got grace and poise and they've kind of got this timeless sort of look to them that stays over time. As opposed to someone that's hot which is kind of quite obvious and in your face, and it's very much sort of that Instagram style. And, um, yet again with that, like, I, I, I said this to, uh, with a surprisingly low amount of kickback from the internet, that if you're a woman who has made it to 30 and your primary source of value is still your looks, then you need to be quite careful about how you spend the next five years.

   19. JBJames Bloodworth50:10

       Mm-hmm.

   20. CWChris Williamson50:11

       Because that is a, typically that is only going to go in one direction no matter how much cosmetic surgery you get. And if that's, you need to have something else. Think about an investment portfolio. If you had an investment portfolio and 100% of your investment was in one particular stock, you'd think, "Well, I probably could be a bit more hedged here. I probably could spread my risk a little bit more effectively." And the same thing goes with, with girls. Like, there is a fucking litany of personal development stuff out there for you so you can become spiritually comfortable with yourself outside of it. You can gain confidence, you can, you know, do whatever it is that you want to do. But Only Fans allows the race to the bottom of the brain stem to perpetuate.

   21. JBJames Bloodworth50:53

       Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think the, the, um, the on the one hand to the, the, the superficial standards in a way of I think also what social media does and what the apps do, is they create this kind of, uh, archetype of someone who is attractive, both for men and women. And it's very crude, so, so I think, I, I, I th- I think it emphasizes like the channel, it puts people in these boxes, like you're a channel, you're a loser, whatever. Whereas I think, um, in, in the real world, it's like what people are attracted to is not like a conscious choice. I think it's way more, way more complex. I mean, someone could not be like the quote unquote "nine or ten" in like looks or whatever, but they can be a very charismatic person, they can have a very magnetic personality.

   22. CWChris Williamson51:39

       I've got, I've got some really ugly mates that crush it with girls.

   23. JBJames Bloodworth51:43

       Yeah. Yeah, same. Yeah. Exactly.

   24. CWChris Williamson51:43

       They absolutely crush it with girls.

   25. JBJames Bloodworth51:45

       (laughs) yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson51:45

       And you think, well, you wouldn't have got picked up on the app. But then, but every single night they get swarms of girls around them because they're funny or charming or whatever.

   27. JBJames Bloodworth51:54

       Yeah. Yeah, it's like vi- they have the, the, the cool vibe or whatever, and they give off that kind of aura of, of being cool, I guess. Um, if that, if that isn't too vague. But I think social media gives this idea to, um, men and women, that, that there's kind of one type of look, one, one version of success in a way. And then I think it's, it is quite easy to get disheartened by that, to, because we're bombarded with... We're on our phones you know, all day and we're bombarded with these images constantly, and this idea of what the kind of the... So whereas once we were bombarded with the idea of what the, the, the, the normal life is, the monogamous nuclear family, whatever, picket, white picket fence. Now we're bombarded with this idea of what's attractive, um, and if you're not living up to that... Again, women have had this for years, you're not living up to that, you should feel bad ab- by yourself. But I think it's also men are subjected to that similar pressure, uh, now as well. Like, if you're not the channel, if you're not these things, then, um, yeah, you're, you're, you're kind of screwed.

7. 52:54 – 1:04:02

   Ongoing Education on Consent

   1. JBJames Bloodworth52:54

   2. CWChris Williamson52:54

      What's happening-

   3. JBJames Bloodworth52:54

      It's not really true.

   4. CWChris Williamson52:55

      Yeah. What's happening with consent at the moment? 'Cause I remember a little while ago, maybe sort of two, two to five years ago, there was all of this sort of consent porn floating around, and these weird, um, you must ask before you say hello, you must ask before you touch, you must ask before that. What's, where's that at? Have you seen any of this stuff?

   5. JBJames Bloodworth53:17

      I mean, with, with that stuff, I mean, I think that stuff will, I think that stuff will always hit the roadblock of, um, like in terms of like people... There's a joke about you having to sign consent forms before you, you sleep with someone and stuff. I mean, that's never gonna happen because that isn't... A- Anyone... That isn't how it goes down. That isn't, just isn't how it goes. That isn't how it happens. And I don't think that's how most people, most women would want, would want it to happen like that either. But I do think at the same time, I, I absolutely do think that like there is, uh, a lot of education to be done among men in terms of... Again, if you, if you, if when I've spoken to, to girlfriends, uh, people I've dated about their experiences, uh, from, from dating apps and whatever, they all have one story of some, some pushy guy who, who doesn't... Pretty much all of them have some story of some pushy guy who doesn't accept no for an answer. Um, so there's something wrong in the culture I think, that, that's still something women have to face. They don't feel they can report it. They don't feel like they can, uh, necessarily come forward about that. I think there's, there's two things going on. Th- I think the attempt to formalize it through, you know, um, affirmative consent, written consent or whatever, is, I think that's ridiculous. But I, I do think there's, um, there needs to be, you know, more repercussions for men who, who don't, you know, who, who do push, push the boundaries and, and don't accept no for an answer. But I also think men need to be... There, there is a, there is a kind of rape culture.

   6. CWChris Williamson54:48

      Yeah.

   7. JBJames Bloodworth54:49

      ... um, to some extent, I think, in certain, like, fraternities of men-

   8. CWChris Williamson54:53

      What does that mean?

   9. JBJames Bloodworth54:53

      ... unfortunately. I think there's, there's, uh, I mean, there's kind of a, a, an assumption, I think, among some men that, you know, um ... Yeah, I mean, I heard from the pick-up community years ago that, that, that w- you know, women have, some women have rape fantasies, so, um, there's like a, it's okay to kind of, to push it a- and, and, you know, no means, n- you, no just means not yet, and, and this kind of stuff. Which I think is, that's very dangerous to be telling, um, especially socially uncalibrated or dark triad, dark triad men this kind of information. They, they, they would feel like they have a free pass to sexually assault someone. But I just think there's, f- in terms of just from speaking to, like, female friends and stuff, I, I, I feel like there is an assumption among m- some men that they can j- just keep pushing it and there won't be really any repercussions, um, if they do that, because, um, few women would, actually do wanna go take these things further.

   10. CWChris Williamson55:51

       Mm. Yeah, man. I mean, I ... That makes me, that makes me really uncomfortable, the fact that pretty much every girl that you know, and I think a lot of the ones that I do as well, have had a situation where this happens. I wonder, so David, David Buss in that Bad Men, and anyone who hasn't read it needs to go and check it out, 'cause it's a fucking awesome read-

   11. JBJames Bloodworth56:11

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CWChris Williamson56:12

       He talked about the fact that most men aren't like this, but you have a, a small minority of men that complete the majority of offenses, and, um ... Yeah, the danger is that you nerf relationships to the stage where all of the excitement, which, which comes from the, the uncertainty, right? Like, the reason that people get excited is the fact that she doesn't know if you're actually interested or not, and you don't know if she's interested or not. Like, that's where the spark comes from, at least in part.

   13. JBJames Bloodworth56:39

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson56:39

       And if you get rid of that, you know, with ... Even if you decide against having the, the, the form and the fingerprint ID to say, "Yes, I want to have sex," if you do have enough to get rid of that excitement, again, desire-

   15. JBJames Bloodworth56:51

       Mm-hmm.

   16. CWChris Williamson56:52

       ... will always win out. And it, it, you're going to lose. So I don't know how much you can c- culturally sort of get rid of the, of the real bad actors. You know, if you've got someone that's narcissistic, psychop- uh, psychopathic, and high in Machiavellianism, like, I think those people are just gonna fuck the game no matter what. I, I don't, I don't wanna call anyone a lost cause, but kind of does feel a little bit like that.

   17. JBJames Bloodworth57:16

       Yeah, I mean, I don't think you ever, like, eliminate the, you know, the, the propensity of a segment of people to try and take advantage of ... You know, people try and take, those people who try and take advantage in any situation. You know, if there's money there, they would steal it. If there's ... they feel like they can get away with sexually assaulting someone, they will do that. Yeah, I mean, I think that's, that's a police matter, basically. But I do think there's, I mean, I do think there's an onus on, on the rest of us as men to kind of call that out when we see it. You know, I, I, I do think a lot of men are good at this already. Like, I do think there is that kind of, um, uh, you know, in the street or something, if, if people see someone hassling a woman, men often will step in, um, and, and, and intervene. I think doing that, I think, can be, can be a positive. Like m- if your, if your friend is, is acting in a way that's sleazy or whatever, like, calling them out. I also think men learning basic social skills, so being socially calibrated so that, uh ... So as David Buss says in, in his book is, so they have more empathy from the woman's perspective. So, you know, asking your female friends, "How does it feel when ... How ... You know, w- what was this experience? How did that feel like to you?" Like, 'cause you, you know, I've been with, with a, a, a, a girlfriend in, like, a bar or something, and someone's approached, and I just thought it was, like, a normal conversation. And she was like, "Oh, he was really creepy." And it's like, ask him why, because I think our ... Men and women, you know, often don't see the other person's perspective, so-

   18. CWChris Williamson58:42

       Totally different worlds, yeah. We-

   19. JBJames Bloodworth58:43

       ... dating-

   20. CWChris Williamson58:43

       ... exists in different planes.

   21. JBJames Bloodworth58:45

       Yeah, dating and stuff. So I think that would be, that would be something like we, we can do, um, as, as, kind of guys in that situation.

   22. CWChris Williamson58:52

       I've definitely seen a big change in the way that young guys talk about relationships and girls in general and sort of the culture. So, I've been in lads chats of one form or another, whether that be, like, BlackBerry Messenger, BBM PIN back in the day, or WhatsApp chats for kind of the last 10 years or so, running club nights, constantly having young guys in there who are at university, who are liberated sexually, who have parties and girls on tap, and hearing this sort of language and seeing it come out of myself as well. And, you know, like, the, the movement over time, where the Overton window of acceptable speech has shifted from and to. Perfect example of this, we used to have, um, cards that all of the boys had to have in their wallets at all times, and it said, um, "You're fit. Come to Voodoo." And it was a free entry pass, but we could, they could only give it to girls. And there was another one that said, "You're mint. Come to Skint." That was a bit more cheesy. Um-

   23. JBJames Bloodworth59:53

       (laughs)

   24. CWChris Williamson59:53

       And someone posted it in one of our group chats today and said, "Look what I just found in an old wallet." And, uh, a bunch of people said, "Fucking hell, mate, you wouldn't be able to do that now."

   25. JBJames Bloodworth1:00:02

       (laughs)

   26. CWChris Williamson1:00:02

       "Wouldn't be able to have, wouldn't be able to have that now." And it is a little bit tongue-in-cheek, but the fact that you have people who aren't culture warriors, they're not bothered about keeping their finger on the pulse of the fucking bleeding edge of what's happening with ideology and identity politics and intersectionality, but they are aware that there has been some sort of a reckoning that has happened. You know, whether it be Me Too, whether it be Jimmy Savile then sort of trickling down to the Epstein and the Weinstein and the so on and so forth. They're aware of that, and these are just fucking salt-of-the-earth dudes who are now in their late 20s looking back on their time at university and realizing, "Wow, times have changed in the period of less than 10 years."

   27. JBJames Bloodworth1:00:43

       Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think there's kind of a ... I mean, yeah, I mean, I think on the one hand there's, there's, I think it's good that these, these bad guys have been exposed. There was people getting away with so much for so long, um, in terms of how they treated women. I think it's, it's good they've been exposed. But I, I think some of the, the media, kind of interpretation of some of this stuff is a bit overblown, um, on-... from both sides. So, I think the- there is this idea propagated on, uh, progressive social media that all women just walk around in fear of being assaulted at all times. Um, I think that's an exaggeration. Um, but I also think that- that the kind of, um, there's a- there's an aspect in the- of the, kind of, manisphere, if you like, where- which- which exaggerates how much- how difficult it is to go and start a conversation with a woman nowadays because, "Oh, you're going to be accused of- of sexual assault or something." And it's like, people who actually know who go out and, um, do, um, date and- and go on dates stuff, who- who are socially calibrated and- and aren't, like, weird, they don't- they never have these experiences, these- these issues really, because there is a sweet spot where it's like, "Just be cool." Um-

   28. CWChris Williamson1:01:52

       Here's- here's what I keep on thinking though.

   29. JBJames Bloodworth1:01:54

       Don't be weird.

   30. CWChris Williamson1:01:54

       I keep on thinking that the vast majority of people making these comments about the real world only exist on the internet. But because they're the loudest voices on the internet, people like us that exist in the real world as well that maybe sort of have one foot in either and straddle it, are like, "Oh, fuck. Dude, did you hear about- did you hear about the fact that 17% of people don't want it?" And it's like, yeah, but those 17% of people don't leave the house.
8. 1:04:02 – 1:14:49

   Is Masculinity Inherently Toxic?

   1. JBJames Bloodworth1:04:02

   2. CWChris Williamson1:04:02

      What about masculinity? Do you think... Obviously there's been a bit of a reckoning, like masculinity's been a- an analogy or it's been on the- the ancillary end of- of this reckoning around Me Too and men in positions of power using that to get themselves access, sexual access, and abusing it and stuff like that. But it does feel, at least to me, like that's left a bit of a void for masculinity that men are now struggling to try and find a societally acceptable, wholesome, but also desirable masculine cliché for them to- a- a road for them to walk down.

   3. JBJames Bloodworth1:04:36

      Yeah, I think it's- I think there is like a lot of, um... It is kind of- it's like a cliché to say it, but it is a confusing time to be a man, particularly a younger man, I think, in many ways within the culture, because on the one hand, you're- you're fed this narrative that masculinity is toxic. And I mean, so I've even- I've even read things about... Um, so yesterday I was reading something and it talked about how gym memberships have gone up 40% between 2015 and 2018 or something. And when I read that I thought, "Oh, that's- that's great. That means more people are taking care of themselves as..." Because we have an obesity problem, so it's- it's a good thing if more people are joining the gym. But it was framed as this kind of toxic obsession with the self, and, um, then I've seen it framed as, you know, toxic masculinity and... Yeah, I mean, it can be, of course, if- when it goes to a certain point, but generally it's like a positive thing to, uh, work out. I- Like, I- I find it somewhere where I can switch off from the writing and meet a different kind of, uh, crowd of people that I'd meet throughout journalism and it's just like- it's just like- it's just a great, um, a- a great environment to be in. There's loads of positive- positive things come from that. But it was framed as like toxic and, you know, toxic masculinity. Um, so- so men I think are often fed this narrative that masculinity is inherently toxic, um, which I think is- can be very damaging. But then, o- they go out onto the sexual marketplace, they go out to a bar, they go onto an app, and it's the guys who are stereotypically masculine which tend to be doing better with, um, when it comes to dating. So it- there's- it throws up this kind of cognitive dissonance, like, "What is going on here?" So when I was in my early- uh, late teens, early 20s, I was into like emo and, uh, punk music and stuff, where it's not the most, like, masculine dudes, like, um, lamenting their loss, like sweethearts and stuff. And- and I- I- I absorbed, imbibed the idea that that was how- that you should put your- wear your heart on your sleeve. That's how you, uh-

   4. CWChris Williamson1:06:34

      That sounds like a s- That sounds like a Taking Back Sunday song or something, doesn't it? (laughs)

   5. JBJames Bloodworth1:06:38

      (laughs) Yeah, I mean, I'm sure there is a song from that genre entitles that, but I thought that was the way you kind of... Like that's the way you- this is the way you get girls, you like dye your hair black and wear like nail varnish and be like a sensitive, like sen-

   6. CWChris Williamson1:06:51

      Jared Leto. Jared Leto gets the birds, man.

   7. JBJames Bloodworth1:06:54

      (laughs) But then those people have status though, so that was what I was misunderstanding. So, if they're in the world famous like emo band, they have status so they can dress as a, you know, a chocolate chip cookie and they'd still get laid.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:07:07

      Yeah.

   9. JBJames Bloodworth1:07:07

      Um, but it- but it was, um...But, but, but the reality, like, if you look at the, the, like, the evidence, like I went out a lot. I spent a year- I spent a long time at university, and then I was in Vegas for, like, a while, and I was going out a lot. And you see what, what, what, how it goes down, really. You see the people who these, the women you find attractive go home with. And it isn't the, the sensi- nice, sensitive emo guy. It's the, uh, extroverted, socially dominant, whatever, not always the chap necessarily, just the person with the status in the environment, so the club environment for the person who has the DJ- the dance floor table, whatever. Um, and I think that confuses... That was really confusing to me, um, as a man. 'Cause it's like, I felt like I was being lied to by the mainstream. The progressives were lying to me and saying that it was just a blank slate and men and women just want the same things. And even the mainstream itself w- was still wedded to this old style, old-fashioned narrative that, "Just don't worry about it. You'll, you'll meet someone, and fate will take care of it," like in the Hollywood film where the nerd, the nice man, the nice fellow gets the woman in the end. So, I think it's very confusing, both of those things.

   10. CWChris Williamson1:08:17

       But there hasn't been, as far as I can see, a solution. There hasn't been something new that's come through to fill that void. It's like, yeah, I can accept, everyone can accept, should be able to accept that men using status and resources to get abusive access to sex in return for them doing something in the workplace is, like, fucking reprehensible. But we also have to concede that there are certain elements of masculine energy which are inherently attractive to women. Okay-

   11. JBJames Bloodworth1:08:50

       Yeah, and it's... Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson1:08:50

       ... so you've thrown the baby, the bathwater, and the fucking bath's gone out the window. Like, what are we left with?

   13. JBJames Bloodworth1:08:57

       Yeah, I mean, so yeah, there, there is a contradiction in that lamenting the... On the one hand, it's, you know, we lament the abuse of men in powerful positions exploiting that position to... I don't mean like Weinstein, Weinstein necessarily, because that's, that's, that's a rape situation. But I mean, where men in high power, high-powered positions, um, use that position to get with younger, much younger women, much more attractive women than they are. And, and that's kind of everybody is exploiting everyone in some ways. And again, I'm not talking about harassment or, or things like that. But it's like, you often have, have the, the women who are s- who are going to these nightclubs, say, in that, that environment, just to find, to these tables, to find the high-status men because they will benefit economically and increase their own social status if they're on their Instagram.

   14. CWChris Williamson1:09:45

       Yeah.

   15. JBJames Bloodworth1:09:46

       And then the men are, the, the men are using their own leverage, their status, their, their finances, their... even just their contacts in the club. Like in Vegas, you also had a layer of, uh, entrepreneurs in that respect, who didn't have any money, but would still be on the, have these da- these amazing tables 'cause of connections and stuff, which was quite interesting. But then because they'd have the status, they would now kind of, um... they would now meet more women than they would if they just stayed in their usual economic role. So, I mean, everyone's exploiting everyone in, in some respects. I think it's the... We don't really hear that because everything today is framed in, like, oppressor-oppressed, and it's this binary... Whereas in some situations, yeah, people are getting different things out of, out of the situation.

   16. CWChris Williamson1:10:27

       Yeah, it's too simplistic, man.

   17. JBJames Bloodworth1:10:29

       Mm-hmm, yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson1:10:29

       To split things off like that, it just...

   19. JBJames Bloodworth1:10:33

       Yeah, it doesn't, doesn't take in any of the nuances of, of, of human beings, basically. The, you know, men are, are not, not just like this and women are not just like this, but sometimes we are selfish, sometimes we seek to improve our own status, sometimes um... Yeah, and, and, and no one's inherently virtuous. Like, there's like Bertrand Russell's quote about the fallacy of the superior virtue of the oppressed. It's like, I agree that women have been oppressed by a kind of patriarchal structure, superstructure for much of the last kind of few thousand years. But that doesn't mean that, that there aren't, you know... That that doesn't mean that there, that all men are bad, men are trash or whatever, and, and that women are inherently virtuous. It's obviously more complicated than that.

   20. CWChris Williamson1:11:20

       It's the same theme that I'm seeing with pretty much everything, that sort of social deconstructionists that want to completely upend absolutely everything are doing it at such a pace that we can't work out which is baby and which is, which is bathwater. It's like, "Look, did I need that bit of society?" It's like, "Nope, too late. It's gone. It's in the incinerator." "Fuck, I might have wanted that." Like, we might- it might have been u- religion might have been useful. Like, there's an increasing number of people that are cultural Christians now because they fucking long for a, a, a weekly service with people from their local community that helps them feel awe and a connection to a higher power. But we threw that out of the... And it's like, okay, so let's throw out of the window masculinity. Let's throw out of the window the... all of this stuff. And we should do that with our peril, man, because fucking having to reinvent all of the shit that we already discovered is... it's a real fuck-on and it's highly inefficient.

   21. JBJames Bloodworth1:12:15

       Yeah, and there's an arrogance to it as well. The, I mean, it's very, um... So we see our society now and think that will just prevail forever. You know, we can throw as much shit at it as we want, um, but it'll just be fine, you know. We'll always live in a liberal democracy. We'll always be able to... But it's like, no, you can't actually throw enough at it and then it, it's deposed for something much worse where you no longer have the freedom to criticize that, that system. Um, yeah, I mean, I think the... I think we're, we're at a place now where, um, the West is kind of denigrated and, and like... I have many criticisms of, of like capitalism, for example. But I think... I was- I feel relatively lucky to have been born in this country and to grow up here. I don't feel... Um, and I grew up working, in a working-class home. I wasn't someone from a privileged background. But I still feel relatively fortunate to grow up here. And, and there's a, there's a weird deconstructionism around...Um, gender roles in specific- specifically. So, I mean, on the one hand, you know, I think gender is nature or nurture. I think there's many roles that women have been pushed into t- for the, for the advantage of men so that, um, you know, for the service of men basically. But at the same time, I find it, it's really weird to me that the main narrative in, like, liberal politics is this blank slate ideology where there's no such thing as masculinity and femininity, it's all a social construct because I feel like at the same time everyone knows in their dating life that that's not true because there has to be some polarity there. You're- there ha- there's the old, like, thing about opposites attract. You're, you're, there's, um, there's- there has to be this polarity there. Y- It's like you know what femininity is as a str- as a heterosexual man. I know what femininity is. I may not be able to describe femininity necessarily but I know it when I see it. Like that, that, that famous, um, that famous quote and, and I think most women it's the same but we have to... We pretend otherwise I think because... I, I, I don't know. I think because if we acknowledge that there's these things that are inherently different people fear that then, um, you know, it- it won't be different but equal. It would be different but therefore you must, you must... If you're a woman you must stay in the kitchen or you must, uh, stay at home, whatever. And I think that's, um, yeah, I mean, that's inevitable though isn't it? Because for, for in the recent past that was what men used that information to do. They used the differences between men and women to oppress women.

Episode duration: 1:15:23