Modern WisdomWaking Up Early, Living with Purpose & Respecting Yourself - Jocko Willink (4K)
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,000 words- 0:00 – 3:20
Intro
- JWJocko Willink
There's going to be things in your life that you don't have control over. Human beings can control a lot more than they think they can, and oftentimes, it's pretty easy just to say, "Oh, that's not me. That's not on me," and people say, "That's not my fault. There's nothing I can do about that." And more often than people think, there is something you can do about it, and it is your fault. (airplane whooshing)
- CWChris Williamson
Jocko Willink, welcome to the show.
- JWJocko Willink
Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.
- CWChris Williamson
You flew to watch the UFC with Cam Hanes and Chris Pratt. I want to know what a night out with Jocko Willink looks like.
- JWJocko Willink
Well, actually, I didn't fly up there with Cam. Cam was already up there. I think he flew in from Oregon where he is, where he lives. But we did, we did meet up there, and ... But I did fly up there with Chris Pratt and Jack Carr and some of the other folks from The Terminal List, which is a TV show that Chris Pratt is in, that Jack Carr wrote the book that the show is based on. And we went up there, watched the fights. (laughs) It, it was, it was a very cool night. Yeah, it was fun.
- CWChris Williamson
What time did you get up the next day?
- JWJocko Willink
I got up ... I don't know, but Cam was giving me a hard time. He says, "What?" You know. "What are you ... Are you gonna get up tomorrow morning?" And I said, "I'm not even going to get home until 3:00 in the morning." And that's when I, that's when I got home. I got home at 3:00 in the morning. I think I got up around maybe 8:00, 8:30, something like that.
- CWChris Williamson
The fact that you don't do the 4:30 AM thing after a night out makes me feel at least a little bit more mortal.
- JWJocko Willink
If it's going to be less than four hours of sleep, then I'll make some kind of adjustment.
- CWChris Williamson
You'll just push it the next day?
- JWJocko Willink
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
What was it like to see the UFC live? Have you seen that before?
- JWJocko Willink
I've been to so many UFCs, I don't-
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- JWJocko Willink
I don't know how many UFCs-
- CWChris Williamson
Sorry.
- JWJocko Willink
... I've been to, but I've been to a lot. I spa- ... I ... When I was younger, I spent a lot of time coaching and training fighters, so I'd corner ... I've cornered a bunch of fighters in the UFC, and so I've been to I, I don't even know how many UFCs I've been to. But it ... I haven't been in a long time. I haven't been in probably three, four years, so it was cool to go and see one again, and, and get back up there. UFC ... Seeing the UFC live is, is awesome, and ... Look, you know, people will say, and even I'll say this too, it's great to sit at home, and (laughs) you know, get all the different angles, and hear the commentary. That, that's cool. Uh, there's, there's a benefit to that. But there is a lot of h- ... a lot of hype and a lot of energy that, that's in the room or in the, in the stadium when it's going on. And so being there live definitely, definitely is, is, is worth doing occasionally to make sure you don't forget what that, what that's all about.
- CWChris Williamson
How do you handle the next day now if you've had a few drinks the night before?
- JWJocko Willink
I actually don't drink, so, uh, you know, it does ... th- that's really no factor for me. You know, I, I drank a ... I drank more than my fair share (laughs) when, when I was in the military, and then when I retired from the military, and I kind of just ... over time, over, over time, I just kind of wasn't drinking anymore, and now I just don't really drink anymore. There's not much in it for me, (laughs) you know. I'm a, I'm a old man with ... I'm married with kids-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JWJocko Willink
... and businesses and all this other stuff going on, so I'm not gonna get much out of, out of drinking anymore.
- CWChris Williamson
And a big price to pay the next day as well if you did decide to do it maybe.
- JWJocko Willink
I guess. I, I ... Uh, sure. I guess that, that might be some of it, but there's j- ... I just don't ... I'm not getting anything out
- 3:20 – 9:55
BJJ Athletes Vs Special Forces Operators
- JWJocko Willink
of it.
- CWChris Williamson
So two of the biggest elements in your life have been your military training and your martial arts training. What would you say are the commonalities between the best BJJ athletes and the best Special Forces operators that you've worked with?
- JWJocko Willink
There's, uh ... Probably the, the, the biggest commonality between the two is some kind of strange contrast between being extremely disciplined and being extremely creative, so clearly if you're gonna get good at jiujitsu, you gotta be the ... you gotta be disciplined enough to train all the time. Same thing with being in the military. If you're gonna be a good operator, you have to have the discipline to push yourself in training. But you can't be a person that, you know, leans so hard towards a disciplined structured life that you don't have any creativity, because both in jiujitsu and on the battlefield, you want to ... you definitely wanna have cr- ... be creative and figure out creative solutions and things that people haven't thought of and things that the enemy is not gonna think of or that your opponent's not gonna think of. So you gotta find that person who has a good balance between discipline and kind of a wild freedom creativity that they can make adjustments.
- CWChris Williamson
It's interesting to think that more focus or more efficiency isn't always the solution to everything. So I, uh, I ... The analogy I'd use is if you think about an artist's, uh, creative studio where they need their creativity, it's not orderly. You know, there's half-coffees and easels and sketches and paint and all sorts of stuff all over it. W- what does that engender? What's that environment creating for them? But then when they need to go and file their taxes, trying to file their taxes in that same room is prob- probably not a good idea. And I guess that flip-flop between off and on, right, between focus and play, uh, seems like a very interesting thing to think about, especially in a military context. What, what, what does that mean when you're talking about a Special Forces operator being creative?
- JWJocko Willink
I, uh ... You know, there's a certain level of ... I- inside the military in general is if you're gonna ... l- you, you have to be a person that kind of follows the rules and stays within standards, and that's great, and you're gonna, you're gonna be a good, solid soldier (laughs) if that's what you are. But if you have a mindset that's ver- ... that's so highly disciplined and so highly structured, like I just said, then you're not gonna think creatively when there's a problem that needs to be solved. So you wanna have people that don't mind the discipline and can actually access the disc- discipline in a way that they can utilize it, but you don't want people to be trapped by discipline, and, and it's the same thing in jiujitsu. If you have someone that only knows how to do a certain move and they can't think creatively about other ways to employ that, th- th- ... it's not that they're not gonna be good, 'cause they are gonna be good-... but there's gonna, they're, they're gonna reach limitations. And, you know, it's one of the interesting things in the, in the SEAL teams is we didn't have, especially when I was coming up, we didn't have any doctrine whatsoever. There was no, there was no written doctrine of any kind. So, everything that you learned was word of mouth. You learned from the guys that went before you. And that meant if the guys-
- CWChris Williamson
(clears throat)
- JWJocko Willink
... that went before you weren't, didn't really know what they were doing, you were probably learning a bad way. And if you didn't think, if you didn't think objectively about it, then you might follow someone down a path that doesn't make any sense. So, you ended up with a bunch of guys in the SEAL teams that were pretty open-minded, and they could kind of look at problems and figure out how to solve them. In the army and the Marine Corps, they have doct- doctrine for just about everything. This is how you do a raid. This is how you conduct an ambush. They had written doctrine for this. So, if you didn't know how, you could just look at a book, which is actually a huge benefit for them. Because if I'm a new platoon commander and I don't how, don't know how to do an ambush, I can just look at this book, and I can learn how to do it. And so there's some huge benefits to not, to, to having a very disciplined doctrine that you can follow. But that's one of the odd advantages of the SEAL teams is that since we didn't have any doctrine, we had to be a little bit more free-thinking, and that made us a little bit more adaptive in, in some situations. So, it's just like anything else. Your strength can be your weakness. Your weakness can be your strength. And you have to be aware, and if you're aware that it's a strength, and if you're aware that it can also be a weakness, and if you're aware that it's a weakness, and you're aware that it can also be a strength, then you can probably optimize the way that you're going to think, which is pretty beneficial.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you think that can be trained, that creativity?
- JWJocko Willink
Yeah. I think creativity can be trained. It, it, just like any other natural trait, some people are going to have more propensity to be creative than someone else, and some people are more rigid than other people in the way they think. And you can take someone that's more rigid, and you can make them more creative. But everyone's gonna have some kind of a limitation, and some people m- might have a pretty, (laughs) pretty, pretty subdued limitation of how creative they're gonna get, and some people can really be trained to get a lot better at that.
- CWChris Williamson
Where did you fall on that spectrum?
- JWJocko Willink
I would say, say I fell, I, I would say I fell pretty hard in both directions. (laughs) So, I, I, I was, you know, a disciplined person that believed in structure, and I liked structure. And at the same time, (laughs) you know, I was, uh, I, I would definitely think of things in a different way. And I, I was a very rebellious kid, and I think rebellion could be somehow tied to creativity and looking at things and, and saying, "Hey, that doesn't make sense to me." So, uh, I'd say that I had a, I'd say I was pretty, (laughs) a pretty strong degree of both of those things, and that's what made me who I am.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, especially the music that you listened to as well growing up, right? I don't think... Almost all of the kids that I know that grew up listening to metal or hardcore, they've... You can't listen to that and not have a rebellious streak in you.
- JWJocko Willink
Yeah. You definitely can't listen to that and not have a (laughs) rebellious streak in you. And that, that's, that, that did dr- kinda drive my way of thinking a lot when I was growing up. And, and not only did it drive my way of thinking, I think I found that kind of music because that's the way I was sort of engineered in the first place. So, (laughs) yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Who were you listening to when you grew up?
- JWJocko Willink
Bad Brains, Black Flag, Agnostic Front, Cro-Mags. Black Sabbath is my favorite band of all time. Yeah, those kind of bands.
- 9:55 – 15:33
Is it Possible to Take Too Much Responsibility?
- CWChris Williamson
A lot of your work is f- it, it's focused on encouraging people to take ownership and responsibility for things. One of the things that I've been thinking about a lot recently is whether it's possible to take too much responsibility or too much ownership, where you start to believe that you're at fault or you're accountable for things and blame yourself too frequently, blame yourself too much. Do you think that's possible?
- JWJocko Willink
There's a way that it can happen. Y- usually from a leadership perspective, when people ask me this question, uh, "Hey, can, is it possible to take too much ownership?" The answer is yes. And that is if I'm in charge, and you're working for me, and I take so much ownership over a mission or over a project that you don't feel like you have any input at all, then I've taken too much ownership. As far as, as, like, as an individual person, there's going to be things in your life that you don't have control over. And, uh, you know, one of the, one of the early questions that I got asked about this, you know, like for instance, someone gets a terrible disease, and, you know, or their kids gets a, gets a terrible disease, uh, uh, a random disease that's, uh, through no fault of anyone, the kid gets sick or the person gets sick. And, no, there's nothing you can do about that. What you can take ownership though is how you respond to that situation. And so, that's what you have to do. There's things that you can control. There's things you can't control. Now, I will tell you that human beings can control a lot more than they think they can. And oftentimes, it's pretty easy just to say, "Oh, that's not me. That's not on me." And I think that's, (laughs) that's the whole genesis of the idea of extreme ownership is most of the time, or much of the time, people say, "That's not my fault. There's nothing I can do about that." And more often than people think, there is something you can do about it. And you can, and it is your fault.
- CWChris Williamson
I inter- ... I, I find it interesting to think about, uh, it's not your fault, but it is your responsibility as well, and, and how that sits in amongst this. My concern with it is, uh, uh, don't get me wrong, I think that right now the vast majority of people need to take more responsibility. I think that it is a great counter to a victim mindset. I think that it helps people with agency and sovereignty. I can see elements in my life though of times when I've blamed myself for things which...... I'm in no way even remotely associated with. So for instance, let's say that I'm doing a podcast with someone, or, or, or I'm doing a live event, right? And I'm facilitating some discussion and I ask a question and the guest fluffs the response, like g- gives a, a poor response. A lot of the time, the first place that I would go is, "That was on me. Somehow I should have asked a better question." And even if I'd asked the absolute perfect question, and you could roll that forward into a relationship, you know, that you're in a relationship with a bad partner or you, something, something occurs, I just, I'm trying to find that line of how people can balance it so that they don't end up putting so much pressure and weight on them that it crushes them.
- JWJocko Willink
Yeah. Well, here's two examples of what you're talking about. You, you mentioned one relationship. Another one is just y- if you're working for me. So if you're working for me and you don't show up on time or you're not professional when you're conducting your briefs, I need to say something to you. And I need to take ownership of the fact that I haven't made it clear that, "Hey, you need to show up on time, and hey, you need to be more professional, and hey, you need to wear the right uniform or, or the, dress the part." I need to take ownership of that. And maybe if I do and I talk to you and we discuss why it's important and you say, "Oh yeah, I really didn't think about that." And you change your ways and you get on board and you start showing up on time, you start acting more professional, it's great. We solved the problem. There's also a chance that y- you're late again or you show up, you know, with, with booze on your breath or whatever, and we're meeting with a client and I say, "Hey Chris, you can't do this. This is ... look, I'm serious. You cannot act this way. This reflects bad on all of us." And maybe y- a- and I might even say, "Listen, if you keep this up, you're not even gonna be working here anymore. I'm gonna have to get rid of you." You say, "Ah, no, I, I love working with you. It's gonna be great. I won't do it again." And maybe that solves your problem. Or maybe you're late again or you continue to act unprofessionally, and then I'm gonna get rid of you. I'm gonna say, "Hey Chris, look, I talked to you. I, I tried to explain this to you, and at a certain point, I, this job isn't for you." So that can happen and I, I have to take ownership of the fact that you are actually not capable of doing this job that I've asked you. So that's fine. Same thing can happen in a relationship, right? Look, if you're in a relationship with someone and you're bickering about where we're gonna go for dinner or you came home late from work and all you do is, "Well, I've been working all day. You should respect the fact that I've been working all day." Like, that's, that's actually on you. That's actually on you. And you can make adjustments to that. Now, can you get to a point in a relationship where the other person is not a good fit for you? And at some point you say, "You know what? I've made these adjustments. I've come home, you know, on time. I've, I've texted you when I was gonna be late." Uh, and these, these other things are coming up and you say, "You know what? I don't think this is working and I don't think this is a good relationship." So at a certain point you say, "Okay, I've made the adjustments that I can make and I have to take ownership of the fact that we're not a good match." So yeah, there's, there's plenty of times where taking ownership means actually solving the problem, not continuing to, to pour the problem down your neck every night, because that's not very helpful to anybody. So yes, at a certain point, you have to, you have to make adjustments and you have to move forward.
- 15:33 – 26:10
Jordan Peterson
- JWJocko Willink
- CWChris Williamson
There's a lot of similarities, I think, between your personal philosophy and Jordan Peterson's. I know you've spoken to him a couple of times. What have you learned from him?
- JWJocko Willink
Well, the f- the most interesting thing that I learned from Jordan Peterson, and I mentioned this the first time he came on my podcast, was that, uh, y- uh, you know, he's a trained academic that studied this stuff his whole life and we came to a lot of the same conclusions about things. And I just came to those conclusions through living and the, the experiences that I had, and he came to them through studying this stuff in a very rigorous way. And, and the cool thing is, luckily for me, (laughs) I had written books that sort of predated, uh-
- CWChris Williamson
I got there first.
- JWJocko Willink
... yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I got there first.
- JWJocko Willink
It wasn't that I got there first, but, eh, I mean, I, this, these were the thoughts that I had. I mean, Discipline Equals Freedom, that book came out I think before I, before Jordan Peterson was on the scene. The ex- the book Extreme Ownership, which is about taking personal responsibility. Well, it's about taking responsibility and you can ap- definitely apply it to personal responsibility. So luckily for me, those, those books kind of predated, uh, Jordan Peterson coming onto the scene and, and doing everything that he did. But it's, again, it's not like I created any of those things. It's not like I created it before he created it, and it's not like he created it before other philosophers had figured these things out. So I'd, I'd say that the most interesting thing about Jordan Peterson that I, that I found, and I think it was pretty interesting to him too, was the fact that we both had kind of come to these same conclusions and we had lived very different lives. I mean, uh, I'm sure there's m- more disparate lives that we could have lived, but they're, they're pretty different lives. And that's, that was a very interesting thing, and it, it made me feel like ... well, it made me feel good about the fact that the things that I had figured out were in line with things that he had figured out. And that means maybe there's a little bit more strength and universality to these things that I believed, which, which felt pretty good.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm just gonna pause there. Do you wanna go and see if there's someone stealing things outside? (laughs)
- JWJocko Willink
(laughs) If there's someone stealing things, can you let me know? (object thuds)
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, it looks like they're bringing things in. That's the opposite. It's nice to know or to think that something that's been proven in the field of battle or on the field of play is backed up in academia, right? That someone can go through the annals of philosophy history and come to a similar conclusion as you.
- JWJocko Willink
Yeah. Uh, absolutely. And you know, the stuff th- the stuff that I say is in the Bible, the stuff that I say is in Stoicism. And, and Jordan Peterson s- you know, says the stuff that I say or I say the stuff that he says. Again, uh, I'm not trying to compete with Jordan Peterson on any level, uh, especially some kind of an intellectual level. But we have v- similar thoughts about things, and that predated either one of us knowing who each other were. So I think that's pretty cool.
- CWChris Williamson
Why do you think people are drawn to advice that's telling them to do hard things? Kind of seems counterintuitive.
- JWJocko Willink
Why do I think people are drawn to advice telling them to do hard things? Because I think pe- any person, any human realizes that if you want some kind of a good outcome, you're going to have to work hard for it. (laughs) And if you, and if you don't work hard for something, you're not going to get an outcome that's really worth much.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, that is the thing that separates the achievements on the other side of it, right? If it was easy, everyone would do it. If it was e- easy, everyone would achieve it. So, this is one of the things that I, I try and rely on when training's been getting harder. So, I ruptured my Achilles a couple of years ago. That sucked. I wouldn't advise it as a, as an injury, generally.
- JWJocko Willink
Yeah, and it's like a random-
- CWChris Williamson
Y- pretty much out of nowhere.
- JWJocko Willink
... a lot of times people just do it, you know, getting out of their car or something.
- CWChris Williamson
See, I was playing cricket.
- JWJocko Willink
Yeah, there you go.
- CWChris Williamson
The most British way to snap an Achilles.
- JWJocko Willink
That's a very British way to snap your Achilles, for sure.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, (laughs) during that, during the rehab for that, it's pretty just uncomfortable. It's endless calf raises, right, which not fun. And the discomfort that you feel and the pain, the, um, fear of it r- re-rupturing, which is the number one thing you don't want it to, to have happen, the thing that I went back to in my mind was, this is why I'm here. The discomfort that I was feeling, the, um, effort, the pain, the sweat. Thankfully, this was during COVID, so it meant that if I had to do a workout every single morning for half an hour on just my carbs, like what else are you doing, right? There's a pandemic going on. Um, this is why you're here was the reminder. It's like, look, this is the reason why the re-rupture rate is, uh, 5 to 10% because people don't want to do this thing. People don't want to do the thing because it hurts, because it takes half an hour every single day for nearly 12 months. It's a full 12-month recovery. That's why. This is why you're here. And I think that you're right. I think that the selection is people deep down know that picking up heavy things physically, psychologically, existentially, culturally is good for us, and I think that that's why it's attractive.
- JWJocko Willink
I agree.
- CWChris Williamson
Another thing that I think is that ... it's one of the reasons why people can become a little bit triggered, "triggered", they can become a little bit uncomfortable when they see somebody else that's got a lot of discipline because I think deep down they know that if they had that thing, that that would fix a lot of the problems that they have in their life. Is this, is this a dynamic that you, that you've seen?
- JWJocko Willink
Uh, I'm sure that's a, a bummer for someone to look at someone else that's working really hard and, and achieving some positive things, and they know that they're not maybe working as hard as they could be, and they're not really achieving what they want to achieve. I'm sure that stings a little bit.
- CWChris Williamson
Another thing that Jordan said recently is that the problem with Twitter is that the price of being a prick has fallen to zero. I feel like you'd agree with that as well.
- JWJocko Willink
Yeah. (laughs) Yeah, I guess I'd agree with that. If you're gonna spend a bunch of time on Twitter, you're gonna, you're gonna run into a bunch of people that don't like you, and they're gonna say it, and there's nothing you can do about it, so. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
And the ability for people's words and the consequences of those words to become detached as well is something that's only pretty recent. I mean, I mean, I guess you could have sent a mean telegram 100 years ago.
- JWJocko Willink
Yeah. Uh, uh, I would recommend that you don't let random bots or people on Twitter bother you that much. (laughs) That's, that's my recommendation. I, I would recommend you to... Uh, you know, the first time I kind of experienced that, it was when I was on, I was on Rogan for the first time, and the YouTube video came out. And I sat there with my oldest daughter, who was probably maybe 14 or 15 at the time, and I sat there and read these heinous comments about me and laughed. But, I, I mean, w- it, it was kind of ... you know, some of them were pretty good. It was kind of funny.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- 26:10 – 32:29
Revisiting the ‘Good’ Video
- CWChris Williamson
Good video. For the people that haven't seen it, it's a two-minute-long edit that was released seven years ago on your YouTube channel, and it's got, like, nearly 10 million plays or something now. And in it, you're encouraging people to respond to setbacks and things that don't go well by saying good, by, uh, leaning into the discomfort, by, uh, sh- seeing it as an opportunity. Was there anything you think that people misinterpreted about that video, or about Good generally as a concept?
- JWJocko Willink
L- look, if you take any idea and you take it to an extreme, then that idea's gonna become bad. I mean, e- even the idea of extreme ownership. If you take it to an extreme where you're l- ... as you pointed out earlier, you're blaming yourself because your daughter got a, a, a disease, or you're blaming yourself because your husband is abusing you. Like, there, there's a point where you s- ... you think anything can go too far. And, and, w- well, you know, I mean, there's, there are some pretty good memes about that on the internet.
- CWChris Williamson
Some phenomenal memes.
- JWJocko Willink
Yeah, there's some good memes about that on the internet. "Oh, crashed my car. My dog died. Good. I needed-"
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JWJocko Willink
"... a new car anyways." So, yeah, take it to an extreme, it can be, it'd be, can become pretty silly or funny, depending on how you take it. But for the most part, you're gonna run into challenges in life, and if you curl up into a ball and complain about it, that's not gonna help you. And if you say, "Okay, cool. Good. Here's some adjustments I can make to move forward," that's gonna be a better move than, than cowering.
- CWChris Williamson
Is there anything that you wish that you'd added in?
- JWJocko Willink
I, I, I don't know. I mean, I said it during one of my podcasts, and my friend, Echo, turned it into a video (laughs) , so, so that's it. If I wanted to, I probably would've expanded on it or done something else. Um, I don't know. Do y- ... You tell me. Did I miss something?
- CWChris Williamson
I don't think so. I mean, it's pithy and, and, and obviously one of, uh, as you've said, uh, it's extensive, not exhaustive as a solution. And this is, uh, this is, this is Twitter in a nutshell, that you have to sacrifice, um, how explicit you're being for brevity, right? For, for being sufficiently succinct that people can understand it, and you can get it in, in 1:55 so that people can actually watch it and won't click off or whatever. And people will then use the, uh, lack of detail to expand that out and say, yeah, "Dog died-"
- JWJocko Willink
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
"... in a car crash, and good," right? You, you, you can see how that's easy to criticize. But I, I think overall, there's this really great story, actually. It was about Zeno of Citium, the guy that founded Stoicism. And, uh, often he was criticized that he was very abrupt when he would speak to people, when he was giving, uh, his ... 'Cause e- he was around in a time of the Sophists, right? And sophistry was all about these big, long, extravagant, um, philosophical treaties, and they would use these super, super long words and stuff. And what he found was that people didn't like the fact of how abrupt he was. Didn't like that. And someone once criticized him for it, and he said, uh, "Yes, I am. Thank you. If I could, I would even shorten the syllables as well." And I, I like the idea of someone that uses brevity in an effective way, and, uh, it, this sort of links in with something that I've been thinking about recently, which is to do with the outcomes that we get in life. So, all of the concerns that we have, all of the sleepless nights and the neuroses and the overthinking and the confusion and the uncertainty and the self-doubt and all of that stuff, all combined together, I think probably net us about maybe five or 10% better outcomes in life. It's my belief that most of the qualities that you have, your integrity, your virtue, your discipline, your hard work, your growth-mindedness, your humor, your resilience, all of that are forces that are very, very difficult for you to slow down, and that once they've got started, it's incredibly hard for you to stop them. And what you're doing with all of the extra concern that comes over the top of that is just making your day-to-day experience of it a lot more miserable. And I, I, I've been thinking a lot about how can you, how can you-... a more fatty, right, the love of fate, the love of- the, the destiny that I have is the one that's going to come. I understand that I have control over it, I understand that I have agency, that I have sovereignty, that I can impact my destiny. But also, that all of the work and the effort that I put in previously is going to carry me through. And if I've been successful so far, that worrying about success going forward, whether or not it's going to o- occur, just- it- it- it doesn't seem super smart. And then, relating that to good is that not only do you need to or can you accept something and say that it is good, you can also have the sense of resiliency that you know that you've got through something that's worse than this before. How did you get on last time that you faced something that was difficult? But you're still here. By virtue of the fact that you're listening to this, you're still here. And there's a part of that that makes me f- it makes me think about good is an active philosophy, right? It's ac- actively saying, "Something happens, I'm going to lean into it. I'm gonna be, um, uh, forward motion." Right? And then, the backup that you seem to have behind that as well is, "Look at all of the things that I've dealt with before. Look at all of the effectiveness that I've come through with previously." And I think that those two combined together are pretty powerful.
- JWJocko Willink
I agree. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Speaking about- (laughs) speaking about motivation and stuff as well, which is obviously kind of the other side of, of what you do-
- JWJocko Willink
You know why I'm laughing, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Why?
- JWJocko Willink
Because you were telling the story about this guy who gave really brief answers, and then you talked for six minutes-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JWJocko Willink
... and I said, "I agree." So I was just having fun. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Good man. You and Zino have got a lot in common.
- JWJocko Willink
Yeah, maybe.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you think that people over-complicate
- 32:29 – 39:40
Do People Overcomplicate Motivation & Courage?
- CWChris Williamson
motivation?
- JWJocko Willink
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
I find that discussions about motivation, a lot of the time... I mean, you are the, uh, soundtrack to a lot of motivation compilation-
- JWJocko Willink
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, videos.
- JWJocko Willink
That's right, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, Motivation Universe-
- JWJocko Willink
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... 40-minute get up and get after it Jocko video.
- JWJocko Willink
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Um, and so I, I think that a lot of the discussions about motivation can cause people to believe that there's some magical state that they need to be in before they do something.
- JWJocko Willink
Yeah. And as I've said since day one, it's, motivation is a feeling that comes and goes, and it doesn't matter whether it's there or not. Discipline is infinitely more important. So, no matter how you feel, get up and do what you're supposed to do. That's it. And that's discipline, that's not motivation. If you only did what you were supposed to do when you were motivated to do it, that's leaving it to chance. But if you're disciplined, you go do what you're supposed to do. That's the way it works.
- CWChris Williamson
I went and listened to an episode you did with Sam Harris f- seven years ago now? A long time ago.
- JWJocko Willink
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
He came up with this, um, really interesting idea where he said that you can't fake courage.
- JWJocko Willink
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That's one of the most interesting ways to look at it. He said that courage, or bravery I think is actually what he was, uh, talking about, you- it's an emotion that you can't fake. If you fake bravery when you're terrified, that is bravery. And I kind of feel like motivation is the same thing. If you do the thing when you're feeling unmotivated, that is motivation.
- JWJocko Willink
That's it. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
So are you saying that all of the Jocko videos of motivation, they can just go off of YouTube?
- JWJocko Willink
Well, I, I, I say in a lot of those videos. And sometimes that's what it takes for people to get motivated is to realize that that motivation-
- CWChris Williamson
They don't need the motivation after all.
- JWJocko Willink
... doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a self-defeating video.
- JWJocko Willink
So like, just shut up and go do what you're supposed to do.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Yeah. I mean, the difference between the person that spends all day wond- wondering about whether they should go to the gym or not-
- JWJocko Willink
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... and the person that just goes to the gym or not, even if they both go, it, it- they net out at zero, apart from the fact that one person has spent the entire day obsessing over it.
- JWJocko Willink
Yeah. And probably wasting some brain power on it. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
There's this thing called, uh, the, uh, by bro science called the anxiety cost. So you know opportunity cost?
- JWJocko Willink
Mm-hmm.
- 39:40 – 45:26
Learning How to Fight Properly
- CWChris Williamson
- JWJocko Willink
Uh, yeah, I, I think ... oh, I know I have. I'm trying to think how I saw them, but, yeah, 'cause a lot of jujitsu people will, will repost those things, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
What, what do you think that people misunderstand when it comes to life-and-death fights, street fights? What do you think most normal people who haven't been in one misbelieve?
- JWJocko Willink
(laughs) I don't know what that has to do with those Detroit videos. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
What?
- JWJocko Willink
Those Detroit videos are definitely, uh-
- CWChris Williamson
It's a pantomime.
- JWJocko Willink
Yeah. So, I, I, I guess ... so, uh, uh, I, I guess, what ... to, to answer your question, what do most people not understand about a street fight? Uh, they're probably not used to just the level of violence that's going to occur. They're not, they're, th- uh, d- maybe this is, maybe this is what you're getting at with the Detroit, uh, self-defense videos or whatever they are. The choreographed maneuvers that you, that work when you and I are going through them and sort of dancing, those aren't gonna work in real life. And so if you think that you're gonna be able to drop someone with one punch, or you think you're gonna be ... all, all those things that, that, that, that are sort of the old traditional martial arts, doing kata, and I, y- you know, I do this to you, and it causes this reaction, then my next move is over here, yeah, that stuff doesn't really work in a street fight. Just ... yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
The groin kick and the palm of the hand to the nose to run away from the, uh, the female to run away from the attacker and stuff like that.
- JWJocko Willink
Yup. It's not going to work well, and it's not very reliable. You know, if you wanna l- learn how to fight, you gotta learn how to fight. You know, you gotta do jujitsu, Muay Thai, wrestling, boxing. That's what you need to do if you wanna learn how to fight.
- CWChris Williamson
Have you been to go and see what Tim Kennedy's doing up at, uh, his place with his self-defense courses?
- JWJocko Willink
I have not been to one of his courses. It's called sheepdog response. But I've seen what he's doing, and of course, you know, Tim's, Tim's a ... not only is he well-versed in martial arts, clearly, he's also well-versed in weapons, and he's also well-versed in violence. And so, I know what he's te- teaching is legit stuff.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm pretty sure they're using live hand-held tasers as well during that to just show people precisely how difficult it is to, whatever, do the, the, the face palm, and the eye gouge, and the, the fish hook, and run away. And, uh, I think he runs, I think it must be monthly. He does a special one for, not military personnel, for, um, uh, the police.
- JWJocko Willink
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And, um, even them, the amount of training, I think, I mean, we've seen this recently, right, that the training seems to be insufficient.
- JWJocko Willink
Yeah, the training for police officers is totally insufficient, and it's, it's horrible, 'cause it's a very difficult job that you should be training ... I, I've been saying for the last several years that police officers should train 20% of the time, 20% of the time that they work, they should be training.... and right now, it's not e- it's probably not even a measurable percentage of time that they're working. I mean, it's probably in the fractions of a percent that they're training. They're, they're, they get horrible training, and they're in really dynamic situations and in, doing an incredibly hard job. You don't know how to do that stuff. You know, that's another, you talk about the misconceptions of the street fight is the person that thinks, "Well, you know, when I ... If someone messes with me, I'm just gonna get wild." And they think that's gonna work, and that's not gonna work, especially against someone that's trained. So if you think that you're gonna have some magical powers 'cause you're angry or 'cause your adrenaline's going, that's not, that's not true, and it's gonna, it's gonna cost you in a big way.
- CWChris Williamson
Especially if you come up against somebody like Tim Kennedy, who's genuinely trained.
- JWJocko Willink
Oh, for sure. Yeah. A- a- and, you know, this day and age, well, I mean, I live in San Diego, California. A lot of people train. (laughs) A lot of people train. I wouldn't say it's the majority of people train, but there are a lot. If you get into a fight in San Diego, there's a decent chance you're fighting against someone that knows how to fight. And the, look, there's jiu-jitsu on every street in San Diego, jiu-jitsu academies. So, yeah, if you just think you're gonna be a tough guy, (laughs) it's p- it's gonna be rough. It's gonna be a rough tour.
- CWChris Williamson
I saw a video the other day that you may have seen as well of Tim talking about changes he was making to his everyday carry.
- JWJocko Willink
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
You see this?
- JWJocko Willink
Uh, I don't-
- CWChris Williamson
So he's ch-
- JWJocko Willink
... I don't think so.
- CWChris Williamson
He was changing the, uh, weapon that he was using, the pistol, um, because recently, some of the active shooters have been using body armor.
- JWJocko Willink
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
So he's now gone to a relatively small caliber but a, a armor-piercing round.
- JWJocko Willink
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
Are you concerned about this increasing sophistication that seems to be coming from people that are shooters?
- JWJocko Willink
Yeah. Th- there's a little, there's an escalation there, right? But that's a ... The, the military went through this with the people we were fighting. They start wearing body armor? Cool. Ro- roger that. You wanna wear body armor? We'll, we'll get armor-piercing rounds. You know, the, the, it, it's just a natural escalation of things, unfortunately. But it's the way it is.
- 45:26 – 51:48
Mental Health Treatment in America
- CWChris Williamson
4th of July shooting, right? And then before that, we had Uvalde, and then before that, we had Buffalo. Have you got any idea if this is the sort of thing that can be stopped or can be restricted in some way?
- JWJocko Willink
Yeah, I did, I did some podcasts on these things, and some of the, the biggest, or I would say one of the most startling things in the, uh, about ... A- as you watch the evolution of this. So in, in 1955 in America, there was 340 inpatient beds for people with mental-health issues per 100,000 people. So for every 100,000 people in America, there was 340 inpatient beds for those people, for people with mental-health problems. In 2007, it was 17 beds per 100,000. So there, the, the mental health capacity for treatment in America is gone down in a, what, 95%. And the re- and there are some legitimate reasons why this happened, and a lot of it had to do with the fact that people were getting put in these institutions, and they, there was some horrible abuses that were going on in some of these mental institutions, people being committed that didn't wanna be in there, people that were abused once they were in there, people that could never get out of there. And there was a, a backlash against that, and it all of a sudden became in the '70s, hey, this, this mental health, these mental health facilities are evil, they're bad, there's abuse going on, we need to shut them down, and they shut down a lot of them. And so in doing that, it certainly appears to me that they threw the baby out with the bathwater, and now we've got ... I mean, you, you think San Diego, there's two or three million people here. Th- there's a lot of people that need help, that need help, uh, uh, mental health help, and there's just not a great place to get it. I, you know, I talk to police officers a lot. Police officers come upon people all the time that they don't need to get put in jail. They need to get put in some kind of a mental health facility, but they don't exist. And so they go into jail for a little while, they, they come back out, and it's a problem. So, so if you take just the numbers of the beds, right? What has that done to all the other aspects of mental health? Like, all, th- what about the outpatient people? How many doctors used to be ready to help somebody that was feeling depressed or was feeling angry? There probably were a lot more doctors back then that had the capability of treating those things. So we've, we've really shut down our capacity to help people from a mental-health perspective, and then on top of that, we've added all these things into society that create more mental-health problems, i.e. drugs, alcohol, social media, uh, the, the, the fact that someone can stay in their house all the time. Then we put COVID on people, where they had to stay in their house all the time. They're getting stuck in echo chambers. There's all these things that add to mental health problems, and we've, we've really done away with a lot of the treatment that we had before. So, uh, uh, hopefully, in, in the coming months and years, we can start to get back to a place where we start to build up our capacity for ...... uh, h- treating help people that have mental health issues because these, these shooters in these scenarios, they clearly are, (laughs) they have mental health problems.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, it's a trend as well that it's dominated by young men, it seems. And that, that seems e- especially sad, 'cause these are men that could be out w- working a job or starting a business or b- being in the armed forces, contributing to something, and instead they're off on a rampage somewhere.
- JWJocko Willink
Yeah, it's horrible to see.
- CWChris Williamson
One of the differences... We were talking before we started about the differences between the US and the UK. I've spent a lot of time, late nights in city centers, working nightclubs. And, um, I've spent a lot of time around homeless people. At 2:00 in the morning, the only people that are out are club promoters and, and homeless people, and, and partygoers. And, uh, the difference between homeless people in the UK and homeless people in the US is more stark than the difference between the cultures by distance. They are significantly more antsy, uh, uh, e- evidently, um, in discomfort and, and talking to themselves, shuffling along, uh, rocking backward and forward, um, much more forthcoming, significantly more forthcoming, significantly more aggressive, even though I've never had anything super bad happen. Uh, downtown San Diego, downtown Denver, downtown Austin, it... I haven't spent a ton of time in America, but, I mean, there are a lot of them. And the safety net that we have in the UK to sweep up people who fall through the cracks like that is... I- it, it seems to work, right? You know, someone, someone ends up in a really bad way mentally, away you go. We'll pop you into a ward. You'll be looked after. You'll be given the medication that you need. There's no insurance that restricts that. But as you said earlier on, it's like a vicious cycle of the people who are the ones that are the most vulnerable are the ones that maybe get sent to jail, perhaps they get hooked on drugs. The drugs make their mental health conditions worse, which means that they can, uh... they further ingrain themselves into a life of either crime or homelessness, which takes them further away from a job and a balanced life. And, yeah, I mean, it kinda doesn't surprise me, but it's, it's pretty sad to see.
- JWJocko Willink
Yeah, I'd be interested to know the numbers of, of inpatient beds per 100,000 in the UK. Because if you think about the homeless people that you've seen in San Diego, and there's two million people here, right? There's a lot of those people that probably would be swept up and put into a place where they're getting the right mental health treatment that they need. And mental health treatment is not an easy thing to do. It can take an extended period of time to get someone sorted to a point where they're able to be... go out and contribute to society. So, yeah, I'd be interested to know those numbers. And even from what you're saying right now, my guess is England's probably doing a better job of getting people the help that they need.
- CWChris Williamson
How long have you been married now?
- 51:48 – 1:04:15
Being a Husband & Father
- CWChris Williamson
- JWJocko Willink
I think 25 years.
- CWChris Williamson
And you met your wife in Bahrain, right?
- JWJocko Willink
Yep. Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you remember the story about the first thing that you said to her?
- JWJocko Willink
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Would you tell that?
- JWJocko Willink
Uh, yeah. So, I was on a, on a deployment in the Navy. I was on a ship. While we were on a ship... This is back before internet on ships. And we... To occupy our time, when you're a SEAL on a ship, there's nothing to do. You don't have a job. So you just sleep, eat, and lift is our joke. And you can only sleep, eat, and lift so long. And then we, we had a certain selection of movies on videotapes. And so one of the movies that we had was Ace Ventura: Pet Detective with Jim Carrey, and so we did a lot of imitating Ace Ventura: Pet Detective. And when I... So, we eventually went to Bahrain. My... The other squad, there's two squads in a SEAL platoon, the other squad had actually gone to Bahrain before us. Squad two went to Bahrain for a few days. They were ahead of us, and we didn't know anything about Bahrain. We didn't know what was going on there, 'cause there's... again, there's no internet. You just know some... we're going to some random place in the desert. And squad one had work to do, so we stayed on the boat for a couple extra days. And then when we finally flew to Bahrain, squad two was waiting for us, and they were, they were saying, "Hey, this place is like... There's good times to be had. There's bars and girls and the whole nine yards." And so they had... like, they were staged and ready to take us out. And, yeah, we went to a bar, and I, and I... well, a big, giant, packed kinda club/bar, and then I saw a tall, beautiful blond woman. And actually (laughs) , actually, one of my friends in squad two had said to me, "Oh, there's these two girls. You're gonna be..." He's like, "I know you're gonna talk to them." And he was kind of a shyer guy, and I said, "Oh, I'm s- I'm sure it'll work out with you, man. You're... You'll do fine." And sure enough, walked in this bar, saw my, saw my future wife, and I just wa- (laughs) I walked up to her, and I said, in like a Jim Carrey tone, I said, uh, "Should I just call you Aphrodite's goddess of love?" And she looked at me like I was an idiot, which was accurate, and then, you know, I bought her a drink, and the rest, as they say, is history.
- CWChris Williamson
How did you save that? I, I, I want to know how you turned that opening line around.
- JWJocko Willink
You know, it was... I did it in a ridiculous enough way that she could t- probably tell I wasn't taking myself too seriously. I mean, it- it wasn't serious, right? So, if you're not being serious... She laughed, and we were good. I didn't, I didn't say it... I didn't say, "Should I just call you Aphrodite's goddess of love?"
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JWJocko Willink
No, if I would have said that, I probably wouldn't have ended up with her.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JWJocko Willink
But I was having fun.
- CWChris Williamson
What have you learned since being married to a Brit? Is there anything that, uh, you think has been a, a unique insight?
- JWJocko Willink
You know, Britain, England, the UK, long allies with America, even though, I guess, originally, it didn't start off that way, clearly.
- CWChris Williamson
Look, the 4th of July was a very difficult day for me.
- JWJocko Willink
Yeah (laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
It was a very difficult day. Happy treason day to all of the ungrateful colonialists.
- JWJocko Willink
(laughs) Uh, no. I, I, I love the historical aspects of England. Uh, uh, you know, the, the, the military that I've worked with, the Brits that I've worked with, kind of, to me, represent what I think of when I want ... when I think of England, and when I ... The way I, the way I kind of hold England and the UK in an elevated way in my mind, the, the British military that I've worked with have maintained that standard. Completely professional, stiff upper, upper lip, squared away, ready to work, and just, just, just ... The, the ... Really, just professional. And that's the way I always think of England.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm interested here in the disciplining process of getting married and becoming a father, because you are someone who had already worked hard on being disciplined. But this feels like a very different type of discipline. It's the discipline to, uh, put up with a baby that won't stop crying. It's the, uh, discipline to be able to comfort somebody while you're away from them. Um, that, to me, feels like a different sort of frequency of, of discipline, and, uh, I'm interested in what you found as a challenge and what you found as, um, uh, whether your military career had, uh, prepared you for marriage and, and fatherhood effectively.
- JWJocko Willink
Well, first of all, uh, uh, insane amount of credit goes to my wife, who is ... Just she ... Uh, one, one of the things I've ex- tried to explain to people about her is that she was emotionally independent, meaning she didn't need me to, to bolster her up and w- well, she handled everything. She handled everything on the home front. Literally everything. And I would just go and go do my job, and she never complained about that. She never made any comments about it. It was ... She knew, kind of, the priority for me was my job, and that later on in life ... And, and that strategically in our lives the, the priority was the family, but she also knew that while I was in the SEAL teams, that was my number one priority. She knew that. And I told her that. And she said, "Yeah, I know. I get it." You take care of your team, you take care of your platoon, you take care of your task unit, and I got this. I got these kids and this house and all that other stuff. And she never complained. She never ... She just, she just did it. And so the, the majority, the vast majority of credit goes to my wife for being an awesome human being, an awesome, uh, mom to our kids. And I was ... I would love to give you some kind of, "This is what you need to look for," and, and I ... That's probably the best I could do, but I can't say that I looked for it. I, I got very, very lucky. I, I, I got very lucky in that my wife was, was ... Look, you can judge her looks, and I've ... Obviously, she was and is a beautiful woman, but the luck part was she was, like I said, emotionally independent. She was, uh, strong to be able to handle just, just mayhem. Mayhem on a pretty regular basis. You know, not ... You know, from, from having a bunch of kids to, "I'm gone on deployment, and my wife is going to visit my wounded guys in the hospital, or going to my guys' funerals." That's what she was doing. So ... You know, team effort, for sure, but she's the MVP, and I'm just sort of, you know, the, the, the bench- the benchwarmer over here. The ... The ... Now all that being said, the, the ... You know, from the military, look, taking ownership of things, which, which I already talked about a little bit, but there's nothing really that goes on in my family that I don't ... That, that I would say no, to my wife, "No, that's your fault." 'Cause I can just about guarantee that everything is my fault. When, when there's something that's not right, when there's something going wrong, it, it's something that I've ... It's a mistake that I made. I did something wrong. Deescalation, right? Because my wife, while borderline saint, they're ... You know, she's a human being. Uh, a lot of my friends would argue that she's just a saint, but she is a human being. And, you know, she might get mad about something. She might get frustrated with me about something, and being able to dees- deescalate those situations and not, (laughs) not escalate them is very, very beneficial. And one of the best ways to do that is by taking ownership when something goes wrong. So I would say the deescalation part, taking ownership, is definitely beneficial. If you're blaming your, your wife, you're probably ... That's not gonna work out great. And, and just the idea of y- you know, trying to win, trying to win an argument ... I mean, first of all, honestly, I don't really ar- I, I, I don't really argue with my wife. I probably have been in less than a handful, less than three or four arguments in my life with my wife. And I can't even s- ... I can't even really think of any right now. I'm just ... Don't wanna, you know, try and, try and make myself out to ... Or make our relationship out to be something it's not. But we don't really argue very often. And ...... so I, I can't even really say that, "Hey, don't try and win an argument with your wife," 'cause I'm not really having an argument with my wife. Um, uh, I guess my, I guess my synopsis of this is pay attention to who you're gonna get married to, and (laughs) try and pick someone that is emotionally independent, that has their own, has their own ... like, that can handle life by themselves. And that, that can be, that can make some people feel insecure, right? Like, "I want someone that's relying on me all the time, and I want them to feel like they nee- need me." And that, that might be a trap for you, if that's what you set yourself up with. So, that's what I'd do. Find someone that's emotionally independent. Find someone that you get along well with. Find someone that's, that's, um, calm, you know, someone that's n- not, you know, (laughs) that's not gonna get, get bent out of shape about little things. And if they do, a little deescalation can kind of get the problem solved. And then just, uh, have fun. You know, my wife and I have fun, and I think that's important.
- CWChris Williamson
It's very interesting to think about the fact that some people rely on a partner who is overly vulnerable, uh, or, um, overly anxiously attached as a way to bolster their own sense of reassurance in a relationship. I've, I've seen this quite a lot.
- JWJocko Willink
Yeah, that's probably not gonna be a great move. And look, you m- m- a person ... I, I don't know everyone. All I can do is talk for myself. And I would recommend you find someone that's more your equal, someone that you can engage with, someone that's, someone that you're part of a team with rather than someone that you're sort of domineering over.
- CWChris Williamson
I learned this the other day, that there's only one sentence in the Bible about how you should choose a partner, and it says that you should choose someone that you could go to war with.
- JWJocko Willink
Hm. I like it. That, that works. That's legit.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a team effort, a relationship, right? And would you purposefully choose a particularly vulnerable teammate because you're always going to be the person that's out in front? Probably not.
- JWJocko Willink
Yeah. Yeah. Now, to push back a little bit about that. (laughs) Look, y- y- y- there's guys I would be number one on my list to go to war with that probably are not (laughs) going to be the best spouses in the world.
- CWChris Williamson
You wouldn't get in a relationship with them?
- JWJocko Willink
(laughs) They're, they're gonna be, they're gonna be tough for, for, uh, a female to be married to because they're, they're wild, right? They're wild animals, and they're the exact type of person that you would want to go to war with and that I've gone to war with. And a lot of times, they're, they're not gonna be great a- as, as husbands.
- 1:04:15 – 1:11:29
Processing Grief & Heartbreak
- CWChris Williamson
week, and he was explaining to me about the similarities between the grief process and the breaking up process. Apparently, neurologically, it's incredibly similar. It's a distance in time and space and something else, I think, and he was talking about how when you go through a breakup, it, it is the same, uh, networks that are activated as through grief. And as somebody that has been to probably far more military funerals than we can remember or would have liked to, how does that inform your advice for people letting go of people that they lose in their life, whether that be through a breakup or, or, or, or through them passing?
- JWJocko Willink
I talked about this on my podcast one time, and, uh, speaking of Jocko videos that are out there and people have made videos of this, uh, yes, I have definitely lost too many of my friends. And it took me a little while to start getting pattern recognition on what, what happens, and it's a very clear pattern. And once I kinda put that out there, I've now heard from many, many scores of people that, "Yup, that's what it feels like." And I think if you know what it's gonna feel like, just like anything else, if you know what to expect, then it's easier to contend with. So, it's like a storm that is hitting you. Uh, uh, you know, you lose someone, someone that you know dies, you are gonna get put into a storm. And what's scary about it is it's a, it's an emotional storm, and you have no control over it. So, you're gonna break down, start crying. You're gonna f- f- remember h- b- bad things, good things. You're not gonna be in control of your emotions, which is very difficult for adults because we're used to having some level of control over our emotions. So, for a period of time, you're gonna get hit with waves of emotion that you have no control over, and they're gonna knock you off your feet, and you're not gonna be able to finish a sentence. You're gonna ... it's, it, it gets very, very difficult. But over time, th- that storm is going to fade a little bit, and those, those waves are gonna get weaker. A- a- and those waves still may come. So, I don't know if you've lost anyone that's close to you-
- CWChris Williamson
No, which is one of the reasons that I'm ... I'm an only child to parents.
- JWJocko Willink
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
I like dogs.
- JWJocko Willink
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Dogs is it. So, I have a particular, um, interest in dogs.
- JWJocko Willink
Right. So, there's gonna be times where it's been a month since your friend died, and you're gonna be sitting there, and you're gonna hear a song, or you're gonna smell a burger that you, you, you once had with this individual, and you're gonna get overcome with those waves of emotion again. Then you might start crying right there. You might have this massive wave of emotion hit you, and it'll, and then it'll subside. And over time, the waves will become weaker, and they'll become less frequent-... and, and h-here's where people also get into trouble. They think that that means that they didn't care about that person, and that's not true at all. It's just that your mind is processing it, and it's okay. (inhales deeply) So that's what happens. You start off with these huge, uncontrollable emotional storm. That storm will pass, that's number one. Just know that that storm is normal, and it's gonna pass, and then it's gonna still hit you. But over time, those waves of sadness and sorrow are gonna get weaker, and they're gonna get less frequent, and that's okay. That's a good thing. And look, I haven't broken up with a, with a girl in a long time, but I'm, uh ... You know, when, when people ask me about breaking up with girls is, you know, (laughs) I've, uh ... What you have to do when it's not working with a girl is wish them luck, t- t- give them the best of luck, wish them luck, walk away and don't look back. And you're still gonna f- get those emotions, those things are still gonna hit you, but walk away and don't look back. And there's two reasons for that. Number one, if there's any chance that it's gonna work out, the best possible way for you to get it to work out is by walking away, by wishing them luck, walking away, and don't look back. That's the best way.
- CWChris Williamson
How so?
- JWJocko Willink
Because if there is something there, then she will let you know eventually. And if there's nothing there, you're gonna know that too 'cause you never hear, hear from her again. That's fine. The protocol for getting her back (laughs) is to walk away and don't look back. That's the protocol, is to move on. The protocol, if she doesn't want you back, is to walk away and don't look back. So, uh, look, and I know it's hard, but you'll, uh, you'll get some of those waves, but those waves will become less frequent and they'll become less powerful, and eventually you can move on. And then, you know, the last thing I'll say about this is in both these scenarios is remember but don't dwell. So, so you've gotta ... Uh, you ... Look, you remember your friends, you honor your friends, you remember what they gave you, what they taught you, what you learned from them, what was great about them, what you miss about them. You remember all those things, but you don't dwell in the past and, and dwell on those thoughts, and dwell on the loss all the time, because that's not healthy either, and it's not- not gonna help you, and it's not what your friend would want you to do anyways.
- CWChris Williamson
(smacks lips) I like the insight around when you are going through grief, and then you stop the sense of guilt that comes through, because you feel now somehow that you're doing a disservice to their memory, like you didn't really care or something like that.
- JWJocko Willink
Yep, yep. It helps to, (clicks tongue) you know, it helps to write about ... I've ... What, what I've told people to do is write that person a letter and tell them w- what you loved about them, what you're gonna miss about them, how you felt about them, what you regret. You write all that stuff in a letter, put it in an envelope, bring it to their grave, and put it there. And, and that will help you process as well. I mean, I've unfortunately or fortunately, I've, I've given a bunch of eulogies for friends that I've lost, and in the beginning I didn't really recognize that that's a way of healing. But f- certainly writing down your emotions, your feelings, what you're gonna miss, what you loved about them is very therapeutic, and it's very good. And so that's another thing I recommend, is you write that stuff down, and, and you, you bring it to them.
- CWChris Williamson
That's another Petersonism from his Rules for Life. He says, "If memories still make you cry, write them down."
- JWJocko Willink
Yep. That's a ... You know, I talk a lot about being able to detach from your emotions, and it's very important. Well, when you write something down, you are literally detaching from those thoughts, because they're going out on a piece of paper that even you can see. So it's a very important thing to do, to write down if there's emotions that you have to deal with, write down. And I just like to give someone some kind of an objective. So instead of just saying, "Write down the emotions," no. Here's the ... Write that person, tell them, and that will kind of be like a w- a writing prompt-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JWJocko Willink
... to get you to write the right things about that situation.
- CWChris Williamson
(smacks lips) I'm pretty interested
- 1:11:29 – 1:31:53
Why Jocko Writes Kids Books
- CWChris Williamson
in your impact on kids. So I had a comment, uh, from a father saying how much he couldn't wait for this episode, because his son's read all of your books, and, "We're timing my nine-year-old's mile run times every week because of Jocko." So if n- if, if nothing else, there is a nine-year-old out there with his dad stood with a stopwatch as he sprints around a park on a Saturday morning or something at the moment. What, what business does a SEAL have writing kids books?
- JWJocko Willink
Well, I'm ... I, I don't know necessarily if any SEAL has any business doing anything. I know that I have four kids, and that I wanted to ... When, when I was raising my kids, there was, there wasn't really any books that carried the message of the values that I wanted my kids to have, and so I just wrote my own. And there you go. Pretty straightforward. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Is that similar to you, uh, do you think entering into the ... Is it a reflection there from the SEALs, the fact that there wasn't a, a guidebook or a handbook, uh, uh, for operations-
- JWJocko Willink
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... when you first came in and, and you've almost had this twice? You've had this in, uh, both your career and in fatherhood as well?
- JWJocko Willink
Yeah, yeah. Like, there is s- uh, there is some weaknesses to not having doctrine, and there's also some strength when you do have doctrine. And, uh, you know, you know, that boiled down to l- ... I was very lucky that I joined the military, 'cause when I joined the military, it, it was ... I, I had a, uh, a structure, a pathway to execute on, and that's very, very beneficial (laughs) f- f- for a young idiot kid that's filled with energy and rebellion and aggression. That's, that's awesome. Here, take all that energy and aggression and rebellion and, and focus it in this direction, it's gonna be beneficial. And you'll actually get rewarded for it. You'll get promoted for it. That's amazing.... and kids didn't really have any kind of a code where, hey, these are some general rules that will h- that y- you will benefit from in life. And so, there you go, that's the warrior kid.
- CWChris Williamson
What about kids or the parents of kids that are being bullied in school? This, to me, seems like a very unique challenge for, uh, g- g- generally for people to come up against. Because a lot of the time, you're able to have an impact on a situation, you're able to do something that moves it forward. But, you know, you can go and have a conversation with the head teacher or whatever, but that, that doesn't necessarily fix culturally sort of what's going on within the school. There's only so much the teachers can do in terms of oversight. I mean, you, you can't go into the school and punch the other kid in the face.
- JWJocko Willink
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
So that's also not the solution, as much as you might want to do that.
- JWJocko Willink
Well, it's not gonna help your kid any either, right? (laughs) You, you have to train your kid to be able to contend with the world, not tell your kid that you're always gonna be there to back them up and beat up anyone that gets in their way. Like, that's not gonna help your kid become a better human. So, no, what you wanna do is teach your kid, what you wanna do is t- actually teach your kid how to fight. You want your kid to train jiu-jitsu, you want your kid to train boxing, you want your kid to be an actual force to be reckoned with. And, and what's crazy about this is, uh, you know, as you mentioned earlier, if there's a bigger, a much bigger person than you, they can still beat you up, you know? And that's the thing with kids, you know, if you're 10 years old, you can be a really well-trained 10-year-old, but a 14-year-old is probably gonna get the better of you, and, and maybe a 15-year-old. But there's still gonna be situations that i- it's gonna be ... you, you're gonna lose a fight. Uh, that being said, the risk for the bully goes exponentially higher when he knows that he's got someone on his hands that can actua- actually knows how to fight. And so the probability of bullying taking place goes way down, way down. And even if that bully wins a fight, he's not gonna look good. It's gonna be a problem. He, he's gonna, he's gonna get a, uh, a victor- a worthless victory, because he's gonna beat up s- he's gonna barely get the better of someone that's a lot smaller than, than the bully himself. So, uh, and all this stuff, all this stuff, I guess we could talk to Andrew Huberman, but this is stuff you recognize. There's a, there's a primal recognition of someone that knows how to fight, uh, and someone that doesn't. And this is, this is ... Kids can recognize this. They recognize, "Oh, I'm getting in this kid's face and he doesn't seem to be bothered by this, and he's got a little bit of a smile on his face. I might not wanna push this any further." And, and that's a real thing. So jiu-jitsu, boxing, wrestling, Muay Thai will elevate that primordial confidence in a young man or a young, a young boy or young girl that is going to prevent so much bullying from happening that it's incredible. So, look, can you still get beat up? Yes, you absolutely can. Are you probably gonna do okay? Yes, you most likely are. Is your m- n- now, what's, what's lame is, you know, uh, if you go back pre-UFC, there'd be martial arts instruction that would, "Hey, we're gonna help your kid with their confidence." And they would, kids would get more confident, but it wasn't based on reality, you know, going back to the Detroit, you know, your friend at the Detroit Defense Tactics-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Don't call, don't you call him my friend.
- JWJocko Willink
... or whatever (laughs) . Going back to that guy, he's teaching things that might help someone's confidence, but they're not gonna help in real life.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- JWJocko Willink
So-
- CWChris Williamson
Which is, is that potentially even more dangerous?
- JWJocko Willink
Oh, it's, it's, it's infinitely more dam-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JWJocko Willink
... dangerous.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JWJocko Willink
Because, y- a kid that knows jiu-jitsu, a 10-year-old kid that knows jiu-jitsu and, and there's a 14-year-old kid, that kid knows, "Hey, even though I know jiu-jitsu, it's gonna be a problem. This kid's a lot bigger than me, he's probably stronger than me, and this is gonna be a problem. I need to figure out a way to deescalate this." As opposed to getting told, "Hey, all you have to do is this strike and that, that strike, and then you'll win a fight." No, that's actually not true. So yes, that is more harmful to have somebody with fake confidence. That, that's a real problem. But i- in training and in becoming stronger, in being able to do pull-ups, in being able to run, you know, for the young kid that's running, th- that kid's got some good cardio if he's timing his mile runs, right? All those things are gonna help make a more capable human who is a lot less likely ... By the way, he's more confident, guess what else he has when he's more confident? He's got more friends. His friends are now looking at this bully going, "Hey, man, you don't wanna mess with our friend." And now we have a, a situation where it's probably gonna get deescalated just because of, of school yard politics and primal politics that, that play out between any group of human beings.
- CWChris Williamson
I'll never forget when I was in secondary school, one of my friends, Carl, his granddad was a judo teacher and had been for a very, very long time, and Carl had done it since he could walk.
- JWJocko Willink
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
As soon as he walked, he was, he was doing judo. And he's now 14 or 15.
- JWJocko Willink
Mm-hmm.
Episode duration: 2:33:05
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode lCiZ2G2GSY4
Get more out of YouTube videos.
High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.
Add to Chrome