What Does It Feel Like To Squat 1000lbs? | Brian Carroll

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   What do you do…

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      What do you do before a lift and what is the inside of your head like before you're about to put 1,000 pounds on your back in a meet?

   2. BCBrian Carroll0:08

      It's, uh, it's really focused and I go to a dark, dark place in my head where I don't care about anything else. And the last thing I want in the world to happen when I'm under the bar is to miss the lift and embarrass myself. So everything is extremely tight. I visualize and see the lift being completed effortlessly before I even approach the platform. I already see it happen. I see the crowd's reaction. And I strive for that feeling to happen before it even happens. So I get out there and I just go to my default mode. I tune everything out, I tune everyone out, and I go and lift and I fight for my life for a couple seconds then I put it back down, then I try to breathe and relax. So you turn it on, you turn it off. You turn it on, you turn it off. Kinda like a fighter, UFC fighter, between rounds. You gotta chill. (exhales) Breathe and relax, then you go, you turn it back on, and then you relax.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:05

      (wind blowing) I am joined by, without a doubt, the strongest man that I have ever had on this podcast, Mr. Brian Carroll. Welcome to the show.

   4. BCBrian Carroll1:15

      Thank you for having me, Chris. I appreciate it. I'm looking forward to having a chat with you.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:19

      Yeah. Me too. Uh, recently had mutual friend of ours, Dr. Stuart McGill, on the show and, uh, he was s- singing your praises. And we also briefly discussed the work that you two did together, so I'm excited to hear the other side of that story as we get through today.

   6. BCBrian Carroll1:34

      Yes. It's been a very interesting journey the last six years that I've known Dr. McGill. And I met him in May of 2013, where I went to see him for a very complicated back injury that I had. Uh, the actual injury was, uh, basically I had no disc at L4, L5, L5, S1. It was flattened just the same at L5, uh, or L4, L5, L5, S1, th- both the discs were gone. And I had a couple endplate fractures working down to the sacrum where it was almost s- split in half. So I was in a bad spot where surgeons were wanting to do a spinal fusion on me. They were talking all this crazy stuff about how I'd never be outta pain. And Stu right away said that, "I can get you outta pain, but your lifting is done. You have absolutely no athleticism left in your back and I'm telling you this as, if you were my son, I would urge you to retire and never consider lifting heavy again." And I said, "Well, you just said that you could help get me outta pain." So I looked at him and I looked at my wife and I very calmly said, "I'm gonna lift again, so let's get me outta pain." And he said, "Well, you know my thoughts on this. First things first, let's get you outta pain and then we'll proceed. You come back in six months. We'll, we'll see where you are and then who knows? Maybe you're right and maybe we end up writing a book about it." And that was the first meeting that we had, May of 2013, and, uh, we wrote the book in 2017. And I held him to th- his feet to the fire when he said this-

   7. CWChris Williamson3:03

      (laughs)

   8. BCBrian Carroll3:03

      ... about the book. And it's, it's, uh ... Have you ever heard the phrase fact is stranger than fiction?

   9. CWChris Williamson3:09

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   10. BCBrian Carroll3:10

       It's super true, man. Some stories that I could tell you, you'd be like, "How does that even happen? How does a guy from ... How do two men from totally different worlds, one in the lab clinic training center, one from in the hole-in-the-wall powerlifting gym, how do they merge and write a book that, that helps people all over the world?" So it's a pretty awesome story.

   11. CWChris Williamson3:29

       I'm looking forward to getting into it today and I'm sure that a lot of the listeners will be as well. So can you give us, uh, a little bit of, uh, a background to your powerlifting career? Where, where you got yourself to in the build-up to this and, and, um, some of your achievements?

   12. BCBrian Carroll3:43

       Yeah. So I started, I did my first bench competition in 1999 when I was a senior in high school. We just actually had our 20-year reunion for high school this past weekend, so I'm feeling kinda old.

   13. CWChris Williamson3:53

       (laughs)

   14. BCBrian Carroll3:54

       I just turned 38. I just (laughs) turned 38 last week. But I started when I was 17 and I actually got really serious about lifting when I was 16, when I was legally able to join the, the local gym. So from there, I just fell in love with lifting. I didn't party in high school. All I did was lift, eat well, and run. And I played baseball. So that was kind of my prerequisite to taking it to the next level. Once I graduated, I didn't know what the hell I wanted to do. So what I did is I kept working my sales job at Coca-Cola and I just lifted. I lifted, I lifted. I did some bodybuilding for a little bit. I kept competing in powerlifting. And then finally, the, the bug fully bit me in 2003 where I did my first full competition meet, which consist of the squat, the bench, the deadlift for total. So I did that in early ... I started training for that in early 2002, then 2003, that was it, man. That's all I thought about for the next 15, 20 years. It was just, you know. And it's still that way, but I've gotten a little bit more mature with my approach to lifting, my patience. Because coming up, it didn't take long until I hit some big, big numbers. Uh, within three and a half years of c- my first full meet competition, I squatted 1,030 at 220, which broke the all-time world record held by Chuck Vogelpohl at Westside Barbell. No one saw it coming. So here I am, a kid at 25 years old, break this world record. The next thing you know, I think I'm, I'm untouchable, I think I'm Superman. I, I ended up going up a couple weight classes, setting records there. Uh, 1,185 squat at 275 in 2011. But that lift cost me. You know, I had a number ... At one time, I had a number two total ever at 220, number two total at 242 multiple times, and a number two total all time at 275. But after a while, that cumulative trauma of abusing my body meet after meet after meet and not necessarily investing back into my body after each competition, I kinda became, uh, physically, in some ways mentally bankrupt because I was pushing, pushing, pushing. And you see people, whether it be CrossFit, whether it be fighting.... wrestling, power lifting, Olympic lifting, bodybuilding, you have to have rest. You have to have downtime. And one of my good friends is arguably the best bodybuilder of all time, Dexter Jackson. He takes a lotta downtime every year. He just won the Tampa Pro and he's, he's actually in line to win the Olympia this year with Shawn Rhoden pulling out. Kai Greene's not competing. Phil Heath isn't competing. It's wide open. So, do you know how d- how old Dexter is? He's 49. He'll be 50 on Thanksgiving. In November this year.

   15. CWChris Williamson6:32

       That man is a, that man is a beast.

   16. BCBrian Carroll6:34

       So, but I've learned from him, take time off. Come off supplementation. Don't train so hard and give your body a rest so you become hungry once again to do it. And unfortunately, I didn't always have that approach and my body got badly beaten up.

   17. CWChris Williamson6:49

       How would you describe your training style in those years when you were getting yourself up towards 1,000 pound and then moving from the 1,035 to, like, the 1,145 squat and stuff like that?

   18. BCBrian Carroll7:01

       Yeah, so the 1,185-

   19. CWChris Williamson7:02

       1,185.

   20. BCBrian Carroll7:02

       ... is where I ended up. Yeah, like, every pound counts there 1,100.

   21. CWChris Williamson7:05

       (laughs) Yeah, yeah, that's true. You fought hard for them.

   22. BCBrian Carroll7:08

       It was whatever it took. Whatever it took. It did not matter. I trained whether I felt good or not. I didn't always listen to my body. And like I alluded to earlier, I thought I was Superman. I thought I could do everything with no con- do every and anything without any consequence. And after a while, everyone's human. We seen it, we see it in every, every field. Eventually, you slow down and Dexter slowed down some. He didn't win a pro show for three years and this was his first pro win in a while. So, we all slow down. So what we have to do is become more cerebral as we get older, as our lifting age. Our lifting age and biological age are two different things. I know many people that just started lifting heavy at 40 years old and they don't have the miles that I have-

   23. CWChris Williamson7:49

       Mm-hmm.

   24. BCBrian Carroll7:49

       ... on my body, even though they're older than me from a biological standpoint.

   25. CWChris Williamson7:53

       Mm-hmm.

   26. BCBrian Carroll7:53

       So, uh, it was reckless. It was heavy. It was pushing at all costs. Now, I've kinda developed a, a little better philosophy over the last six or seven years, where I scale training back. I have programmed deloads where I take lightweight every few weeks. If I don't feel up to a lift one day, I'll ask myself, "Am I being a coward or am I being smart?" And I'll weigh all my options. If something feels off and it starts to feel better, maybe I keep going. Or if it feels off, I shut it down and just help the other guys for that day. So, uh, I'm a lot more cerebral these days and I have to credit Dr. McGill for a lot of that 'cause he helped, he helped me a great deal.

   27. CWChris Williamson8:30

       Yeah, I can hear the narrative, the Stuart narrative seeping through in some of the words that you say and I, like, I'm doing the same, right? I went to go and spend a day with Dr. McGill very fortunately in Canada a couple of weeks ago and I did my podcast with him and we've been in touch a lot over email and stuff like that and I find myself, uh, drinking the Kool-Aid or singing from the same hymn sheet now as well because it appears to be the right one and I wanna get onto the whole th- th- the whole ethos behind your injury and your recovery and stuff like that. But there will be some big fan powerlifters out there who'll want to know what sort of split you were doing in the buildup to your main meets, in the, the, I guess, the heyday of your comp prep and stuff like that. Could you take us through the typical sort of day and who was programming for you, what were you eating, et cetera, et cetera?

   28. BCBrian Carroll9:20

       Good. Okay. So, it all depended on what, what weight class I was lifting at. I lifted at 220, 242, 275 and even 308, uh-

   29. CWChris Williamson9:30

       (laughs) That's-

   30. BCBrian Carroll9:30

       ... at bench press there.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Interesting. …

   1. BCBrian Carroll15:00

      So I'll do my, my hamstring work, my quad work, my upper back work, my mid back work, my bicep work, and then I take Thursday off after that day. And then Friday I do a little bit of a pump workout where I just get some blood flowing. I'll do a little bit of sled dragging and cardio and carries, which I do at the end of each workout, but it's more of a focal point on Friday. And that kinda gets me ready and the blood flowing for Saturday morning when I squat and deadlift again.

   2. CWChris Williamson15:28

      Interesting.

   3. BCBrian Carroll15:29

      Four days a week.

   4. CWChris Williamson15:30

      And that's that rotation?

   5. BCBrian Carroll15:32

      Yep. Yeah. And then every three or four weeks, I take a lighter week on the main movement. So I might only work up to 50% of what I'm capable of that day, and that's why I think a sliding scale, something like RPE, the rate of, rate of perceived exertion or effort, however you wanna put it, I think it's good because depending on what you have going on in your life, the weights are gonna fluctuate. You can't always go off of percentages. What if you're on a honeymoon and you're in Jamaica and the weight room is not up to snuff? You're gonna have to scale back the weights you use. If you're only going off percentages, it's gonna lead to a lot of disappointment eventually. So what you do is you look at what you're capable of today, then work off of that max, what you feel like you have in the tank that day. So um, a lot of the time, every three or four weeks, I'll just work at like a five RPE or 50% of what I'm capable of that day and just do singles so I reiterate those engrams of perfect form every single time. So it gives me not only a refresher for my brain, but a refresher for my body, and then I'm ready. You know, I'm a little, uh, more motivated to get back under the bar with heavier weight the following weeks. And what I like to do is take a light week before you're absolutely crippled and forced to take a light week.

   6. CWChris Williamson16:45

      Mm-hmm.

   7. BCBrian Carroll16:45

      Because then, we know that overtraining can last up to a month for some people. They're overstimulated. They might get sick. They might not sleep well. They, uh, they might have regression in their strength, achy, the flu. There's a lot of symptoms that come ar- come along with training too hard for too long, and I've been there multiple times. You just, everything feels like crap. You become depressed. Everything's heavy. So why not stay ahead of that wave before it crashes on you? Why not ride it, like a surfer?

   8. CWChris Williamson17:14

      Mm. Yeah. One of the things that you touched on earlier on that made me think, something I know a lot of athletes that are listening will consider, which is, how much of my, not unwillingness to train, but my concern about the session that I have in front of me or the difficulty that I'm finding in this session, how much of that is because I am ... My current makeup is not in a very optimal state? I've underslept. I've not eaten very well. I might be getting the onset of a bug. And how much of that is me being a pussy? How much of that do I need to push through? And that line is i- uh, it's very difficult to define, right? And I'm gonna guess that even more so in a sport like powerlifting, where spit and sawdust, guys like Louie Simmons, West Side Barber, you know, get it done.

   9. BCBrian Carroll18:05

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson18:06

       H- h- how, how do you, how do you make that judgment and how do you swallow the ego?

   11. BCBrian Carroll18:11

       Whenever I figure it out, I'll do another podcast with you-

   12. CWChris Williamson18:13

       (laughs)

   13. BCBrian Carroll18:13

       ... and I'll tell you. Because it's a ever- it's a, it's a, it's a constant battle to figure that out. And you know what? You can read all these textbooks, you can read my book, 10x20 Life, you can read Gift of Injury, Ultimate Back Fitness and Performance, so on and so forth, Back Mechanic, but until you understand the art of coaching and application, all that knowledge is crap. It's useless. So I say that to tell you it's, it's about the art. It's the art of knowing your body and paying attention to indicators. Indicators meaning physical, mental, psychological, uh, spiritual. Whatever you have going on, you've gotta say, "Hey, is the juice worth the squeeze today? Am I close to a competition? Do I really need these lifts? Yes? Okay, let's push a little bit." "Hey, I'm 12 weeks out from a meet, I don't need to go heavy today, I'm gonna shut it down. Maybe I'll come back tomorrow and feel a little bit better. My girlfriend just broke up with me." "I didn't sleep all night because the neighbors were fighting." You know, "I didn't eat good today because, you know, my child was sick at school." So it's o- there's gonna be a lot of things, and not everything is gonna be optimal every single time, but with that said, I think preparation beforehand, having your food cooked in case you can't, you know, run and cook your food or, or go home and get it, knowing places where you can get your food while you're out to eat, and always staying up to date on your sleep, and not, and not staying up all night every night, and you know, get on a schedule, because that's important. Uh, a lot of people seem to think that it needs to be regimented every single day, so that means getting in bed at 10:00 or 11:00 and sleeping till 6:00 or 7:00, and doing that every single day, uh, which will get your body in a nice, nice rhythm there. But I've still yet to optimize my sleep. I like to stay up late, man. I like to read.

   14. CWChris Williamson20:03

       Mm-hmm.

   15. BCBrian Carroll20:03

       I like to research, I like to see what's going on, man. And the thing about being up late is no one's gonna bother you, you know? No one's gonna bother you, you do your research. I like to read and study. And that's a problem for recovery, though.

   16. CWChris Williamson20:15

       Yeah. Naturally, I'm a, a night owl as well. I recently read a blog post saying that people have a genetic predisposition to being early birds or night owls, and that's really quite difficult to, to flip around, although I've, I've worked as hard as I can to get myself onto the same, like, daily cadence as everyone else-

   17. BCBrian Carroll20:32

       Mm-hmm.

   18. CWChris Williamson20:32

       ... um, but it's, I'm, I'm still bouncing off that limiter a little bit. Another thing that, uh, came to mind when you were talking about routine and routines, there are blog posts from Ryan Holiday, which I've discussed on the podcast before, which is where he says that you don't need a routine, you need a number of routines. And he talks about how he has his I'm away on a book tour routine when he's in a unoptimized hotel room and there's a blinking light over the far side and it's not quiet and it's this, that, and the other. But he can, he's realized, "I need an eye mask, I need earplugs, I need..." et cetera, et cetera. And you're saying the same. It's like, okay-

   19. BCBrian Carroll21:08

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson21:08

       ... what, you have this particular day coming up, and over time, a little bit of experience will show you that you need to prepare better for this. "I need to-"

   21. BCBrian Carroll21:15

       Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson21:15

       "... have my food prepped for the full day, not just for lunch. I need to make sure I've got water because I'm gonna be driving a long journey," or whatever it might be, all that sort of stuff.

   23. BCBrian Carroll21:25

       Yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson21:25

       And I think-

   25. BCBrian Carroll21:27

       Yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson21:27

       ... th- that comes across with experience, right? Which is obviously what you've been able to tap into now.

   27. BCBrian Carroll21:33

       Yup. And that stuff isn't gonna come from a book, it's gonna come from experience. And, um, I wish I knew back then what I know now, but we all say that, whether it be about relationships, whether it be about nutrition-

   28. CWChris Williamson21:45

       (laughs)

   29. BCBrian Carroll21:45

       ... uh, about high school, wha- whatever it may be. And I mention high school because I just had my 20-year reunion, and it's, uh, definitely interesting the perspective that I have now versus back then.

   30. CWChris Williamson21:55

       I bet it is.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   I was gonna say…

   1. BCBrian Carroll30:00

      is a lot of people think they're wrapping the baseball tighter and they're making-

   2. CWChris Williamson30:03

      I was gonna say they're changing, they're changing the ball, right? It's got a cork center or something now?

   3. BCBrian Carroll30:08

      Well, yeah, they, they've changed a few things about it and it's made the ball what they call more lively, where it jumps off the bat further. And a lot of pitchers are very mad about it because they s- it's making their job harder, because it's harder to get people out. Um-

   4. CWChris Williamson30:20

      But no one, no one goes to the, to the baseball. We went to a New York Yankees game recently, uh, on a stag do in New York. Went to a New York Yankees game. Not a single... N- I don't think there was anything more than a double that was hit. And I'm like, I was-

   5. BCBrian Carroll30:33

      Boring.

   6. CWChris Williamson30:33

      ... been there for three hours.

   7. BCBrian Carroll30:35

      (laughs) Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson30:36

      See what I mean? Like, come on.

   9. BCBrian Carroll30:38

      You wanna get your money's worth.

   10. CWChris Williamson30:40

       Yeah.

   11. BCBrian Carroll30:40

       And that's gon- and that's gonna be from seeing action.

   12. CWChris Williamson30:43

       Yeah.

   13. BCBrian Carroll30:43

       Home runs, doubles, triples, plays at the plate, action, clashing.

   14. CWChris Williamson30:47

       Yes.

   15. BCBrian Carroll30:48

       That's what you go to see.

   16. CWChris Williamson30:49

       Exactly.

   17. BCBrian Carroll30:49

       So, uh, there's a, there's a very good, uh, episode of Victor Conti, the guy behind BALCO, on Joe Rogan from about seven years ago. It is brilliant, and it talks about how there's no truly drug-free sports out there. There's always dirt. I don't know if you saw the Ica- Icarus or Icarius-

   18. CWChris Williamson31:09

       Yep, yep, yep.

   19. BCBrian Carroll31:09

       ... or whatever on Netflix. It goes to show you that e- everyone's doping to some extent, for the most part. They're always trying to beat the system. If they're not taking things that are prohibited, they're, they're taking things that are almost prohibited or a slight ver- ver, uh, um, slight deviation of that chemical-

   20. CWChris Williamson31:29

       Yeah.

   21. BCBrian Carroll31:30

       ... and then they pass, and then, uh, th- there's always stuff. And that's how Victor Conti developed those designer steroids that people forgot about-

   22. CWChris Williamson31:37

       Mm-hmm.

   23. BCBrian Carroll31:38

       ... that drug companies had developed long ago, and they weren't on the banned list, so he took 'em and said, "Hey, these aren't banned. Let's go. Let's go."

   24. CWChris Williamson31:45

       Fire away. (laughs)

   25. BCBrian Carroll31:45

       And then baseball blew up, football blew up, track and field, weightlifting, all that stuff did.

   26. CWChris Williamson31:50

       Yeah.

   27. BCBrian Carroll31:51

       Uh, you might even notice that the action stars were more muscular back then too.

   28. CWChris Williamson31:55

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   29. BCBrian Carroll31:56

       Christian Bale is one of 'em. Brad Pitt is another. They, they were all a lot more muscular then. Uh, so I, I think a lot of people were dabbling in that.

   30. CWChris Williamson32:04

       Yeah.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   There's a lot of…

   1. CWChris Williamson45:01

      ...

   2. BCBrian Carroll45:01

      There's a lot of things. I think the first, first incident was, uh, in 10th grade. I was running stadiums and I tweaked my back a little bit. The second in- so that's 1995 or '96. Um, the second incident that I had was in 2003. I strained my back a little bit and I felt a pop when I was deadlifting. That settled after a little while. Then in 2009, I was on a obstacle course. I was trying out for a scholarship with the police department, and I was the first person to run that morning, and it was eight o'clock in the morning on a July, July day, so we had a lot of humidity. And as I was jumping over a barricade, there was dew all over it, and I slipped and landed right on my butt and my back like that. And-

   3. CWChris Williamson45:47

      Hm.

   4. BCBrian Carroll45:48

      ... that's when I was laying in the parking lot afterward. My legs weren't working, and I barely was able to drive myself home. It took everything I had. But, like any brilliant athlete-

   5. CWChris Williamson45:57

      Hm.

   6. BCBrian Carroll45:57

      ... like myself, I, uh, I did my first 1100 squat and 800 deadlift about three weeks after that. (phone ringing) So, th- that's just, to kind of answer your question, I did a lot of stupid stuff and I just kept pushing like I was Superman. And finally, uh, in 2011, that big lift, it was another little thing that chipped away at it. And then 2012, about eight months after that 1185 squat, I was warming up. I was on pace to squat 1200 at this meet. And when I was warming up, I felt my back go. I felt, man, a lot of burning sensation locally in my lumbar spine. And, uh, I had to very, very, very much battle through that meet. I ended up winning that one, but, uh, my back started regressing. So that was '12, and then '13 it got really bad, and that's when I finally gave up after seeing multiple neurosurgeons, mor- multiple orthopedic surgeons. I'd gotten my shots. You know, people get these shots, these, these facet joint injections, nerve root blocks. The problem is if you're not removing the cause, they're totally useless because it's only a numbing sensation. So until you remove the cause of the pain and build more pain-free capacity, those, those epidurals are useless. So I, I went through that thinking they were just magically gonna cure me. Then I went down the path of trying to get surgery, thinking that would just be, "I'm gonna go in and get surgery, then everything's gonna be great." And that's not the way it works, and thank God my client suggested I see Dr. McGill, and within a month I was there with him in his laboratory.

   7. CWChris Williamson47:32

      It's, it's crazy to think, so speaking to Dr. McGill and also having read Back Mechanic and, uh, a fair chunk of The Gift of Injury, your book with him as well, um, surgery appears to be a, a very, very rapid option, um, I think m- perhaps a little more so in America. In fact, I was with Dr. McGill when, uh, uh, he took a phone call from a, a, a lady who said she'd had back pain for eight days, had been to see-

   8. BCBrian Carroll48:00

      (laughs) .

   9. CWChris Williamson48:00

      ... a consultant, and the consultant had said, "We need to get you in for surgery." And I'm thinking to myself, "You've had back pain for eight days." Like, uh, tha- that could be anything. You could have, like, a splinter in your back. Like you literally-

   10. BCBrian Carroll48:14

       Yes.

   11. CWChris Williamson48:14

       ... could've sat on a bit of wood. Um-

   12. BCBrian Carroll48:16

       Right.

   13. CWChris Williamson48:16

       ... so, yeah. Uh, uh, the, the, the root of surgery, um ...Dr. McGill went through a- a number of the reasons why that's a- a bad idea in- in his estimation. I think the stat is now at 80% of back surgeries are back to the same baseline level of pain within 12 months.

   14. BCBrian Carroll48:37

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson48:37

       I think that's a- around about right. Um-

   16. BCBrian Carroll48:39

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson48:40

       So you didn't- you didn't go for that. You went to see Dr. McGill and split sacrum, front to back, L4, L5, and L5 S1 are just obliterated, I think was the terminology that he (laughs) used.

   18. BCBrian Carroll48:51

       Yes.

   19. CWChris Williamson48:52

       Um, and from there, what happened? 'Cause you're used to doing deadlift and squat on a Monday, and bench on a Wednesday, and all this sort of stuff, and Dr. McGill-

   20. BCBrian Carroll49:03

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson49:03

       ... Dr. McGill does the thing where he pushes his mustache to one side-

   22. BCBrian Carroll49:07

       (laughs)

   23. CWChris Williamson49:07

       ... and he looks at you, he looks at you like this, and then he s- he gets his finger out and he points at you, and what does he, what does he say?

   24. BCBrian Carroll49:15

       He says that my spine hygiene is terrible. It's not of a- a top athlete. So I had to reprogram the way I moved, and that meant squatting. So everything I did when I'm sitting in a chair, I'm standing up, pushing my hips through. Then when I sit down, I'm not plopping.

   25. CWChris Williamson49:31

       Mm-hmm.

   26. BCBrian Carroll49:31

       Sitting down easily. So I had to get the hip hinge down, the same way you push yourself off the toilet. I had to learn to lunge to tie my shoes. So for instance, it's here, put my foot up on a chair and then lean forward and lunge into it.

   27. CWChris Williamson49:45

       Mm-hmm.

   28. BCBrian Carroll49:46

       And then the last thing is a golfer's pickup, where you basically stand on one leg and then reach down with a nice and flat back.

   29. CWChris Williamson49:52

       Mm-hmm.

   30. BCBrian Carroll49:53

       All I was doing was bending.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:14:30

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. BCBrian Carroll1:00:00

      And when I talked with Dr. McGill, I was a little skeptical about what he had to say, and then, uh, after a little while, I realized that he knew what he was talking about. So when I met him in that May, in that, on that May day in 2013, I went into his lab as a complete beginner. I went in there like I knew nothing. And the only thing I held tight to concerning my ego and my pride was that I'm gonna compete again. Everything else, I turned over to him completely. Now, I've met a lot of athletes that, that are world-class, world record holders, you name it, that...... are done now because they couldn't step away from the barbell or step away from the track or the octagon and get pain-free. Now I've met a lot of people that say they can't do it for a variety of reasons. And what I say to that is, biology is very binary. It doesn't care about your mental state. It doesn't care about what you have going on, your bills. Either you're giving yourself enough stimulus to build and be better, or you're tearing your body down. And so if you can't stop lifting for the sake of your mental health or your wallet, then I wouldn't expect to get out of pain. And, and that's what I, that's what I tell them. And then they go on and have a surgery, thinking they can just get their pain cut out and they're good, and then they never return back to the platform or the octagon or the track or whatever it may be. So it's very hard for a lot of people because there's a lot of stress going on right now throughout the world with the climate, uh, social media, everyone's wound up and fighting and, and, and so they use exercise for an outlet to de-stress.

   2. CWChris Williamson1:01:37

      Mm-hmm.

   3. BCBrian Carroll1:01:37

      And when you take that away from them, they freak out. Well, you can still walk, you can still do your core work, but you're gonna have to take time away from going out there and, and drilling the barbell every day. So it was hard, but once I got going, 'cause I, I, I caught some, I caught some, some stuff from friends when I wasn't lifting and I would still go to the gym every day, but I'd be doing my McGill three and my carries and all that stuff. So I didn't care. And the way I looked at it was this. I'd beaten just about everyone in the past, and I was doing what I needed to do to get back there once again and I'd get the last laugh.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:02:13

      What a fantastic philosophy.

   5. BCBrian Carroll1:02:14

      (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson1:02:15

      What a fantastic philosophy. I mean, when you are one of the strongest men on the planet, that's the sort of thing that you can say. But I hope that that has reframed for a lot of people that might be listening just the sort of sacrifices that you do need to make. I've certainly, having seen Dr. McGill and, um, I sent him a couple of emails afterwards just asking for some clarity on some of the prescriptions that he'd given me moving forward. One of these questions asked the, asked something which I shouldn't have asked, which was, can I go to failure on any of these/

   7. BCBrian Carroll1:02:47

      (laughs)

   8. CWChris Williamson1:02:47

      /slash do you have an RPE or reps and sets, uh, like suggestion? Because that's the language that I talk in. That's what-

   9. BCBrian Carroll1:02:56

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson1:02:56

       ... that's all I've known. I've known w- how hard should I go and, and it was, uh, TRX, ring rows, push-ups, um, front rack kettlebell carry, and single leg, uh, knee raise. How hard should I go? Can I go to failure? And I, I just got this email back-

   11. BCBrian Carroll1:03:15

       (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson1:03:15

       ... and I was like, "Oh, no." (laughs) It was just-

   13. BCBrian Carroll1:03:19

       What did he say?

   14. CWChris Williamson1:03:19

       It was just like, um, he t- he shouted at me. It, it was shouting.

   15. BCBrian Carroll1:03:23

       (laughs)

   16. CWChris Williamson1:03:23

       There wasn't any capital letters, but it was in quite big text and it was just, uh, "Chris, you are talking like a bodybuilder. Um, you are ... This is not the route to get pain-free. You need to be focusing on movement quality first and foremost. I have had athletes who have done nothing but XXX for six months to one year to two years before they move onto anything," et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And I was just-

   17. BCBrian Carroll1:03:49

       It's the truth.

   18. CWChris Williamson1:03:49

       (sighs) I'm like, "Okay." (laughs)

   19. BCBrian Carroll1:03:52

       Yeah. So I have, I have a lot of athletes that I work with, uh, through online coaching and I get them to read Back Mechanic, get them to read Gift of Injury and Ultimate Back. And then once they get pain-free, I progress them but sometimes they relapse, and that might be because a new stress in their life.

   20. CWChris Williamson1:04:07

       Mm-hmm.

   21. BCBrian Carroll1:04:08

       Uh, they may have gained some weight, they may have lost some weight. There's a lot of things that change, you know, our body's ever-evolving and adapting. So sometimes they're on a very light regimen for a year and they think that 10 weeks of working with me is gonna cure everything. And I'm thinking, "Man, some flare-ups can last three months-"

   22. CWChris Williamson1:04:26

       Mm-hmm.

   23. BCBrian Carroll1:04:26

       "... or longer." You know what I mean? If the nerve is really pissed off. So it takes time and there's no magical wand, there's no magic bullet.

   24. CWChris Williamson1:04:34

       Mm-hmm.

   25. BCBrian Carroll1:04:34

       It's all about removing the cause and giving your time, your body time to let biology do its thing. And you can't contradict it with things that don't ... are, are not cohesive.

   26. CWChris Williamson1:04:45

       Mm.

   27. BCBrian Carroll1:04:45

       And that's a big thing that, that I think a lot of people miss. Uh, concerning your question about RPE-

   28. CWChris Williamson1:04:52

       (laughs)

   29. BCBrian Carroll1:04:52

       ... in my experience ... What's so funny?

   30. CWChris Williamson1:04:55

       Just the fact that I asked that question to him.

Episode duration: 1:14:49