What Happens When You Dedicate A Year To Optimising Your Life | Carl Cederstrom

1. 0:00 – 5:03

   Meet Carl Cederström & the 12-month human optimization experiment

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      (wind blowing) Hi, friends. We are back again, and this week we're talking about life hacks, but perhaps with a little bit of a different angle. Carl Cederström is an associate professor at Stockholm Business School, part of Stockholm University, and his writing has appeared in the New York Times, The Guardian, The Atlantic, and Harvard Business Review, amongst many others. Carl spent 12 months immersed in the human optimization movement. Him and his co-author, Andre Spicer, dedicated one month of the year to a different area of their life and trying to optimize it as much as possible. This is the (laughs) absolute zenith Mount Everest of trying to optimize your life, and the experiences that Carl went through have elicited some really, really interesting (laughs) results. He'll tell us exactly what, out of 12 months of pure optimization, was the single best tool that he came across, how he was able to optimize his sex, his relationships, his vanity, his looks, his finances, and a whole bunch of other things. And then we move on to his new book, which is called The Happiness Fantasy. Now, recently we've discussed happiness quite a bit with Susanna Hallinan and in the Q&A that I did with Jonny and Yousef, and it's, uh, interesting to see Carl's approach to it. He makes a strong case that happiness isn't something that any of us should be aiming for, and that there are much more worthy terms that would make us much more fulfilled and content within life. I'm gonna leave it there. I won't present any spoilers (laughs) for the rest of the episode, but I wanted to give another shout-out to Scott McGrath, who sent in a screenshot of him sending out on (laughs) another company internal intranet one of our podcast episodes. Now, thanks very much for that, Scott. I really appreciate it. Again, if you do manage to share one of the episodes on a big network, please let me know, and I'll be able to give you a shout-out on a future episode. Coming up soon, we have got How to Survive University, me, Jonny, and Yousef talking about that, and the long-awaited Life Fails 101 Edition, which is essentially the antithesis to our very slick approach to human optimization. So, there's lots of exciting stuff coming up, but for now, here's Carl. (upbeat music) Mr. Carl Cederström, how are you today?

   2. CCCarl Cederström2:43

      I'm very good, thank you. How are you doing?

   3. CWChris Williamson2:45

      Very good, thank you. All the way from the increasingly cold England at the moment. Where are you in the world?

   4. CCCarl Cederström2:53

      I'm, uh, in the increasingly cold, uh, Sweden, uh, Stockholm, to be precise.

   5. CWChris Williamson2:59

      (laughs) Very nice. You're an associate professor at Stockholm Business School, right?

   6. CCCarl Cederström3:04

      That's right, which is part of Stockholm University.

   7. CWChris Williamson3:07

      Fantastic. For the listeners at home, could you give us a little bit of a background to yourself, please?

   8. CCCarl Cederström3:12

      All right. Um, well, I live in Sweden, been living in, in the UK, in Cardiff for a few years, but now based here, live in Stockholm, two children, a wife, and the author of, uh, uh, a few books, which I believe we will talk a little bit about. What else can I tell you? That's it, really, I think-

   9. CWChris Williamson3:34

      (laughs)

   10. CCCarl Cederström3:35

       ... that, that would be necessary to know, uh, for, for now.

   11. CWChris Williamson3:36

       That's the, that's the brief, the, The Zeitgeist Tape to Carl Cederström. I like it.

   12. CCCarl Cederström3:40

       (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson3:41

       Did you, uh, did you manage to tune your hearing into the Welsh accent very quickly when you were over there?

   14. CCCarl Cederström3:49

       Well, I mean, I could, I could still now today spot it and recognize it quite easily, much more easily than before, but I was never able to imitate it or-

   15. CWChris Williamson3:58

       (laughs)

   16. CCCarl Cederström3:59

       ... or speak anything like the, the Welsh accent. It's very, it's very subtle. I mean, I'm, um, you know, my English is, is just, uh, too inferior to imitate any kind of, uh, accent. Uh, just the Swedish. Maybe, maybe I could do a, a, a French, German, or, or Danish accent if I really tried to.

   17. CWChris Williamson4:17

       I got you. I got you.

   18. CCCarl Cederström4:17

       (laughs)

   19. CWChris Williamson4:17

       Well, I won't, uh, I won't make you jump through that hurdle today.

   20. CCCarl Cederström4:20

       Thanks. (laughs)

   21. CWChris Williamson4:21

       That's okay. Um, so I wanna get straight into it. Um, you have had an interesting journey with the, uh, field of human optimization. Would that be fair to say?

   22. CCCarl Cederström4:33

       Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's fair to say.

   23. CWChris Williamson4:35

       (laughs)

   24. CCCarl Cederström4:35

       (laughs)

   25. CWChris Williamson4:36

       So, as, as-

   26. CCCarl Cederström4:37

       (laughs)

   27. CWChris Williamson4:37

       ... a lot of the listeners will know, we have... Our most popular series is a sequence of episodes called Life Hacks, and on those, we try and find tips and tricks, strategies and approaches for a productive and efficient life.

   28. CCCarl Cederström4:52

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CWChris Williamson4:52

       And you took the human optimization movement to an extreme for 12 months, yourself and your co-author and friend, Andre Spicer. Is that right?

2. 5:03 – 6:32

   Why two academics decided to ‘try it for real’ after criticizing wellness culture

   1. CCCarl Cederström5:03

      That's right. I mean, the background to that project is that, uh, both me and Andre, uh, two university professors who've spent just too much time in our life, uh, in front of a computer, sitting, uh, on a chair, um, in our offices and, and studying various things, and we've both been interested for a long time in the optimization movement. We've been interested in, in self-help culture, and we wrote a book a number of years ago called The Wellness Syndrome-

   2. CWChris Williamson5:31

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CCCarl Cederström5:32

      ... which was really a critical diagnosis of what we call a wellness society, a society where everyone is really sort of commanded, where there is an injunction to be well, to be happy, to be healthy. Unless you, you know, live up to those, uh, requirements, you're seen as a, a worse person. So, I mean, this is really what it all began with many years ago, and we were interested in understanding this culture from a more sort of sociological, political, and philosophical perspective. And then when that book came out in 2015, a number of people said, "But...... look, guys, did you really try any of these things? And the truth was that we had rarely left our offices for the last, I don't know, 10 or 20 years, so I never tried ... I, I, you know, I'd never been to a gym, I've never tried mindfulness. I really, I, I, I tried nothing really. So we thought, why not write a book where we start on January 1st and spend an entire

3. 6:32 – 9:16

   Designing the year: the 12 categories and what a month of optimization feels like

   1. CCCarl Cederström6:32

      year and try all of those things that we've written about from a more, uh, theoretical, uh, perspective, a very sort of distanced approach, and just immerse ourself into this culture and, uh, do everything that a human being could possibly do to optimize every area of, of our lives? So we sat down together over lunch when I was visiting André in London, where he lives, and, um, we thought out 12 sort of main broad categories of optimization areas-

   2. CWChris Williamson7:06

      Okay.

   3. CCCarl Cederström7:06

      ... various things that you could optimize in your life. And, um, so we just, uh, wrote down, uh, these 12 categories starting in January with productivity-

   4. CWChris Williamson7:17

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CCCarl Cederström7:17

      ... February, uh, optimizing the body, March was optimizing the brain, then relation, then spirituality, then sex, enjoyment, money, creativity, uh, morality, um, vanity, and, uh, then finally trying to work out what the sort of deeper or sort of wider implications of this project was. Um, so that was the kind of (laughs) optimization project which, um, uh, took place in 2016, starting in January-

   6. CWChris Williamson7:47

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CCCarl Cederström7:47

      ... and ending by the end of December.

   8. CWChris Williamson7:50

      What was that like living that year?

   9. CCCarl Cederström7:52

      (laughs) Well, I think, I think now it's, it's, it's like you're, you're in your 40s and look, look back, uh, to your 20s and thinking, "That, that was probably fun, but there's no way I would ever (laughs) ever do it again." But it was ... I mean, there, there were some things which, which were qui- quite interesting. I think on, on a more sort of fundamental level, what it means to start playing with your life and start experimenting with various aspects of your life, which really, uh, allows you to do things y- which you would, uh, normally, uh, not do. And I think also for us doing this thing together really helped because, uh, we pushed ourselves to do things we, we would never have dreamt of doing, uh, otherwise. And it was also something strangely comforting waking up, uh, every morning and knowing exactly what it was that you were supposed to do. And, uh, some people said that one month was a very... is a very short period of time and there's no way you could optimize an area in one month time, which is true-

   10. CWChris Williamson8:52

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CCCarl Cederström8:53

       ... but also you realize when you do that how long (laughs) a month is-

   12. CWChris Williamson8:57

       Yeah, I bet.

   13. CCCarl Cederström8:59

       ... and, uh, and I think, you know, in m- m- during many of these months, it felt as though they would never, never end.

   14. CWChris Williamson9:04

       (laughs) So of, of all of the areas that you moved through, which one was the most trying or which one did you find to be the... either most difficult or most uncomfortable?

4. 9:16 – 10:30

   The most uncomfortable month: optimizing sex (and the strange world of sex gurus)

   1. CCCarl Cederström9:16

      Yes, sex, definitely. It was-

   2. CWChris Williamson9:19

      (laughs)

   3. CCCarl Cederström9:20

      (laughs) Uh, and, and, uh, I'm pretty sure André would have, uh, said, uh, sex as well. No, that was really the most difficult one, and also since we're both married, we have to... we had to try and find alternative routes to go down.

   4. CWChris Williamson9:33

      (laughs)

   5. CCCarl Cederström9:34

      And for me, it was to try and, uh, optimize masturbation, which, you know, sounds absolutely outrageous, but of course it turns out that there's a whole body of literature and gurus and, you know, professional wankers who would tell you-

   6. CWChris Williamson9:47

      (laughs)

   7. CCCarl Cederström9:48

      ... how to optimize those r- point-

   8. CWChris Williamson9:49

      I'm pretty certain I've worked with some professional wankers in my time, actually.

   9. CCCarl Cederström9:54

      Yeah. And, you know, it's f- it's fascinating when you begin listening to them because they would really see life as being a sort of pre and, uh, post, um, you know, learning to become a sort of, um, sexual kung fu master, which means that you could-

   10. CWChris Williamson10:10

       (laughs)

   11. CCCarl Cederström10:10

       ... um, you know, master multiple, uh, orgasms and, uh, you know, reject on a metaphysical level almost, um, the, uh, ejaculation and instead sort of embrace orgasm as this, uh, uh, very m- m- ejaculation and instead sort of embrace orgasm as this, uh, uh, very powerful energy that is opposed to-

   12. CWChris Williamson10:26

       Greater than the physical-

   13. CCCarl Cederström10:28

       ... you know?

   14. CWChris Williamson10:28

       ... the physical manifestation that-

   15. CCCarl Cederström10:29

       (laughs)

   16. CWChris Williamson10:29

       ... it is itself. So-

5. 10:30 – 11:52

   How the experiment affected relationships and family boundaries

   1. CCCarl Cederström10:30

      Yeah.

   2. CWChris Williamson10:30

      ... I need to... I want to ask you a question that I'm sure a lot of, uh, girlfriends and wives at home are thinking, which is, what did your girlfriends or wives, what did they think about the, the year that you were doing? Were they just sort of turning over in bed at night and hoping that you weren't gonna wake them up to something else mental in the morning? Or what, what, what was the, the sentiment?

   3. CCCarl Cederström10:53

      Yeah. I mean, I think, I think m- my wife, more than anything, was really tired of, (laughs) of hearing that question-

   4. CWChris Williamson10:59

      (laughs)

   5. CCCarl Cederström10:59

      ... over and over again. And, uh, I think, I think, uh, the most, the most, uh, uh, testing bit really was people around asking, you know, "H- how do you feel about this?" Uh, what I tried to do was to... You know, when you put yourself through an... y- year... a year-long experiment of this kind, you need to be very careful about the things you're ready to sacrifice and the things-

   6. CWChris Williamson11:23

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CCCarl Cederström11:23

      ... you don't want to sacrifice. And I think in my case, the family was, was very important, so I tried to keep the, the project and the experiments, uh, whenever possible (laughs) within, uh, you know, working, uh, or office hours, so to speak.

   8. CWChris Williamson11:39

      So you can keep, keep the family life insulated, so to speak from the, from the experiment.

   9. CCCarl Cederström11:44

      I tried to. Of course, I'm, I, I, I didn't-

   10. CWChris Williamson11:46

       A little bit of overspill-

   11. CCCarl Cederström11:47

       ... successful at-

   12. CWChris Williamson11:48

       A little bit of overspill here-

   13. CCCarl Cederström11:49

       (laughs)

   14. CWChris Williamson11:49

       ... and there, I'm gonna guess. Yeah.

   15. CCCarl Cederström11:51

       Yeah. (laughs)

6. 11:52 – 13:07

   Biggest practical win: extreme productivity and writing a book in a month

   1. CWChris Williamson11:52

      So we've talked about one of the, the lower points of the journey. What were some of the, the real highlights that you took from it? Can you tell us... Can you tell us anything that you thought was really, really good that you went through?

   2. CCCarl Cederström12:01

      Yeah, yeah. I mean, uh, uh, a lot of... I mean-

   3. CWChris Williamson12:05

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CCCarl Cederström12:05

      Okay, so I mean, one of the things that really worked was, uh, maximizing, uh, productivity. So- so the book that you were supposed to interview me about, the- The Happiness Fantasy (laughs) is a book that-

   5. CWChris Williamson12:17

      Hmm.

   6. CCCarl Cederström12:18

      ... that- that was the book that I had to write in one month's time. Um, so this was the first, um, the first test, was to see if we could, uh, if we could finish an academic book in- in the period of one month.

   7. CWChris Williamson12:32

      From- from scratch?

   8. CCCarl Cederström12:34

      Uh, well, I had, when starting, I had about, uh, I think one chapter finished, and had to finish five chapters. So, I think pretty much, well, say 80% of the book I had to wr- I- I had to write-

   9. CWChris Williamson12:50

      Plus then proof it-

   10. CCCarl Cederström12:51

       ... over the course of that month.

   11. CWChris Williamson12:52

       ... and go back through it all again, and...

   12. CCCarl Cederström12:54

       Yeah, I mean, I did send it off to the publisher, which I had, which was on the contract, and, you know, this is just going to ruin the whole story now, but (laughs) they originally ... they- they- they rejected the manuscript when they- when they saw it.

   13. CWChris Williamson13:06

       Oh, no. (laughs)

7. 13:07 – 18:35

   The single best tool: Pomodoro technique (and why breaks must be ‘nothing’)

   1. CCCarl Cederström13:07

      (laughs) But- but, uh, uh, and then I was just ... And- and- and the interesting thing is, uh, okay, so- so this is what happens. I wake up, uh, January 1, and, uh, I know that in 31 days, I need to write this freaking book. And, uh, there's really no- no time to lose. And, um, so what I do is I meet a sort of productivity coach, and he gives me a series of- of really helpful advice, and I think the advice I would really recommend to everyone, especially if they work with writing or, uh, many other sort of creative tasks is, uh, the Pomodoro technique, which may sound very, you know, simple, almost, uh, you know, uh, silly, but it's- it's really fantastic and- and I would say if there's- if there's one thing that really came out of this year, which I still use on a daily basis, it is the Pomodoro technique, which very simply means that you sit down and work in a very concentrated fashion for 25 minutes, and then there's a small beep from your app or whatever, or if you use just a- a- an egg clock, and, uh, I'm sorry, egg timer, and then, uh, you take a five-minute break. And the rule, which I think is very important to follow is that, when you take the break, you should do nothing. Ideally, just stare out the window or on a boiling kettle, and as soon as the five-minute break is over, you sit down again.

   2. CWChris Williamson14:34

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CCCarl Cederström14:34

      And this may sound really counterintuitive, so let's say you're in the middle of a sentence, you know, crafting a sentence and things are going really, really well, and then the beep goes. Of course, you know, you would think that I should sit here and- and, you know, let this creative flow, uh, continue. But, I- I- I think if you just stand up, take the break, and then after five minutes, go back again, you know exactly where to start, and then you kind of recuperated enough so you could keep going. And it's interesting if you do this over the course of- of a day, because I think the first, uh, five or six Pomodoros, you think that, "Okay, I don't really need to take a break now," but it really gives you the stamina to carry on working for a much longer period of time and-

   4. CWChris Williamson15:21

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CCCarl Cederström15:21

      ... still in a- a concentrated fashion. So that, and also the addition of- of some medications which I was experimenting with, which worked really well. But, uh, that was really the- the key to getting the- the book- the book done, even though it's fairly short (laughs) -

   6. CWChris Williamson15:40

      (laughs)

   7. CCCarl Cederström15:40

      ... and- and- and it was rejected by the first publisher.

   8. CWChris Williamson15:42

      Oh, dear.

   9. CCCarl Cederström15:42

      And, uh, but the- the finished project- pro- product, the one I've sent to you, is- has- I- I did (laughs) have to work it over, uh, last autumn anyway. But, uh, uh, so yeah, I think, uh, if- if I had to single out one thing that really worked over the course of that year, I'd say productivity.

   10. CWChris Williamson16:00

       Well, that's ... The Pomodoro technique is a common theme. I'm- I- I promise to the listeners at home that we're not sponsored by the Pomodoro technique, but (laughs) the, uh-

   11. CCCarl Cederström16:10

       (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson16:10

       ... there seems to be ... It- it definitely seems to be a tool of choice for writers and creative types. Dr. Ewan Lawson, who I did a podcast with, that was, uh, a lot to do with the ergonomics of your desk environment, your general working environment, he said that he could go back through 150 Pomodoros that he did, and he could track absolutely everything he'd done during his-

   13. CCCarl Cederström16:33

       Hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson16:33

       ... contribution to the book that he wrote, which he co-authored.

   15. CCCarl Cederström16:36

       Mm-hmm.

   16. CWChris Williamson16:36

       And he could go back through, and he actually came up with ... It's interesting that you- you touched on looking out of the window-

   17. CCCarl Cederström16:43

       Mm-hmm.

   18. CWChris Williamson16:43

       ... because he came up with a rule called the 20/20/20 rule, which I guess with the Pomodoro would be the 25/20/20.

   19. CCCarl Cederström16:52

       Mm-hmm.

   20. CWChris Williamson16:52

       But what he talks about is, um, refocusing the eyes on an object which is 20 feet away for 20 seconds every 20 minutes-

   21. CCCarl Cederström17:00

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CWChris Williamson17:01

       ... and one of the reasons for this is to reset the, uh, oculus muscles within the-

   23. CCCarl Cederström17:06

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson17:06

       ... with- within the eye, um, to reduce eye strain, reduce tension headaches, and a few other bits and pieces. But I, since that and over the last six months have tried to implement the Pomodoro technique as much as I can, and for-

   25. CCCarl Cederström17:19

       Mm-hmm.

   26. CWChris Williamson17:19

       ... anyone who is listening, they will know that we are a massive fan of the Pomodoro technique for productivity. I think time boxing anything ... Like, Parkinson's law is just ... I- I- it's like one of ... It's like gravity, right? I think for a lot of people, it's just something that you cannot get around. Work expands to fill the time given for it. And-

   27. CCCarl Cederström17:38

       Mm-hmm.

   28. CWChris Williamson17:39

       ... when you give yourself that countdown clock in the corner of the screen or the- the little-

   29. CCCarl Cederström17:43

       Mm-hmm.

   30. CWChris Williamson17:43

       ... turning away egg timer or whatever it is, it just reminds you ... It usually reminds you how much fucking time you're wasting (laughs) , I think. (laughs)
8. 18:35 – 25:02

   Why optimization is so compelling now: escape, commodification, and fear of death

   1. CWChris Williamson18:35

      (laughs) So, getting onto the larger topic of optimization overall at the moment, have you, have you managed to come to a conclusion about why there is a modern-day obsession with optimization?

   2. CCCarl Cederström18:49

      Yeah, I mean, I think, um, by the end of, uh, Des- The Desperately Seeking book, um, I, I kind of, I was left with sort of three, three theories, and, and the first one is that there is a deeply, uh, there's a deep human desire to be someone else or somewhere else, basically just to, to escape the confines of, of who you are.

   3. CWChris Williamson19:20

      Mm.

   4. CCCarl Cederström19:20

      And, uh, I think everyone is, is, is, is born with, you know, multiple dreams of, of what you could become, and I think that's just something, something deeply human. So, of course, optimization or, or self-help for that matter, uh, promises and, uh, that is really, uh, powerful is that you could live a different life. I mean, your life could be different from how it looks now. So, I think that's a very s- very strong, uh, deeply human, uh, impulse. And then the second, uh, theory is that, um, really now we, we live in a time where, uh, we're expected to do these things. I mean, I think we do live in a culture which is very individualized, and we are being trained at an early age in school and elsewhere to begin think of ourselves in terms of, uh, what we can do, uh, in relationship to, um, the sort of, the market economy. I mean, what are we going to do when we grow up? How are we going to make money? And not only in terms of what are you going to become in terms of your, your trade, your occupation, but, you know, what are the kind of creative and innovative ways that you could, um, think about sort of remaking yourself as a, a valuable commodity?

   5. CWChris Williamson20:41

      Mm.

   6. CCCarl Cederström20:41

      So, I think there's a kind of, um, commodification of, of life and, and where we're really expected to-

   7. CWChris Williamson20:49

      (laughs) That's a re- that's a really good way to put it, a commodifi- commoditification of life. Yeah, you're totally right.

   8. CCCarl Cederström20:54

      Yeah, and, and we're, we're really so indoctrinated to think- thinking about what can produce value and where there's really no distinction between the work that we do and the person that we are, and it's not only working on other things but working on ourselves. So, I think the whole sort of optimization culture is very strongly linked to that kind of competitive element of, uh, modern-day capitalism.

   9. CWChris Williamson21:17

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CCCarl Cederström21:18

       So, that's the sort of second theory, and then the third theory is, is also very sort of classic one, which I think is, uh, uh, escape from death, really. And I mean, I don't say that, uh, in a sort of facetious way or, or that, uh, there's something wrong with escaping death (laughs) . I think we're, we're all trying to escape-

   11. CWChris Williamson21:37

       Nobody wants to die.

   12. CCCarl Cederström21:38

       ... in, in different ways. Nobody wants to die, and, uh, but there, there are different ways, obviously, to escape death. But I mean, if you take one of the more radical things I did during the optimization, uh, uh, th- The Year of Optimization, it was to have plastic surgery. So, this was a month where I was going to, uh, spend every day and all the money I had trying to become as beautiful as, as possible. So, I went to, um, one of these clinics where you get injections, you know, um, it's called Restylane, these sort of filler injections.

   13. CWChris Williamson22:11

       Okay.

   14. CCCarl Cederström22:11

       So, I was going to get a sort of broader and sort of sharper, um, uh, uh, um, what, um-

   15. CWChris Williamson22:18

       Jawline.

   16. CCCarl Cederström22:19

       Jawline, that's right.

   17. CWChris Williamson22:20

       Yeah.

   18. CCCarl Cederström22:20

       A sharper jawline. And, (laughs) and, you know, when, when I come in there, uh, there's this woman in a white robe, and she looks at me, and I tell her, "I want to be as beautiful as, as possible." And you know-

   19. CWChris Williamson22:34

       (laughs)

   20. CCCarl Cederström22:34

       ... she looks at me, and you know, for her that's a perfectly normal question, and she moves me over to the, uh, mirror, and I, I look in the mirror, and she says, "Well, you have a slightly boyish look, so maybe we could try and make you look a little bit more like, uh, George Clooney?"

   21. CWChris Williamson22:50

       (laughs)

   22. CCCarl Cederström22:50

       And, uh, I'd been thinking more of something like, uh, uh, Ro- uh, Cristiano Ronaldo-

   23. CWChris Williamson22:55

       Yeah.

   24. CCCarl Cederström22:55

       ... or Justin Bieber.

   25. CWChris Williamson22:56

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   26. CCCarl Cederström22:56

       But I thought, "George Clooney sounds great." So, I went for the, for the big, big jawline. (laughs)

   27. CWChris Williamson23:02

       The full George Clooney makeover.

   28. CCCarl Cederström23:03

       The full, the full George Clooney makeover. But, but I mean if you go into a clinic like that, and also this, this woman who I met, it was absolutely impossible to say how old she was because you couldn't s-

   29. CWChris Williamson23:15

       (laughs)

   30. CCCarl Cederström23:15

       ... you couldn't see a wrinkle anywhere, uh, in, in her face or any other people I, I met in, in that clinic. And, and obviously that's a way of escaping death.
9. 25:02 – 29:16

   Meaning, progress, and the gym: why physical training feels more ‘real’ than work

   1. CWChris Williamson25:02

      Mm. So, you've touched on something. I, I promised to the listeners at home that we haven't shared notes before (laughs) we did this, but you've touched on something I really wanted to get to. Do you think that optimization is people searching for meaning in life through progression? That overcoming an obstacle and chasing down a task is a good way of artificially inseminating a feeling of meaning in your life because when you reach the goal, it's the same as, "I want to get the bigger house. I want to have the bigger car. I want to do-"

   2. CCCarl Cederström25:31

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson25:31

      "... X, Y, and Zed." I train in CrossFit gyms all the time, and a lot of the people that are there, they want that 200-kilo deadlift. They want that 120-kilo clean and jerk.

   4. CCCarl Cederström25:41

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson25:41

      And you're like, okay, well when you get there, all that you're doing is moving the, y- you're moving your PB up by five kilos and going for it again.

   6. CCCarl Cederström25:47

      Mm.

   7. CWChris Williamson25:48

      The, there's a, there's got to be a broader question about what makes life worth living.

   8. CCCarl Cederström25:52

      Mm.

   9. CWChris Williamson25:52

      And is it these little, the, the little i- intermediary targets or are people using that as an escapism mechanism to, to forget the fact that the overarching, uh, that life, a lot of the time for a lot of people, is suffering? Uh, I think, what- what's your, what's your take on that?

   10. CCCarl Cederström26:09

       Mm. That's, uh, that's a great question. Uh, I think, I mean, we, I think we need to put this in the perspective of how we are being, uh, brought up today, uh, in, in school, and especially when it comes to the point, you know, when you're in your early twenties and you, you need to start thinking about what you should do with your life. And we're really brought up, you know, um, through commercials and through a kind of business-type thinking-

   11. CWChris Williamson26:36

       Yeah.

   12. CCCarl Cederström26:36

       ... that, uh, we need to progress. In some ways, our lives should be like that sort of toothpaste commercial, when you see how wonderfully, uh, rich and healthy your, uh, teeth become after using a toothpaste, or your hair become after using a-

   13. CWChris Williamson26:54

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   14. CCCarl Cederström26:54

       ... shampoo. And again, when it comes to work, um, reading any kind of, uh, you know, business-related literature, I'm from a business school, which is also partly why I'm interested in this-

   15. CWChris Williamson27:05

       Mm-hmm.

   16. CCCarl Cederström27:06

       ... but how we're really being taught and traded- trained into thinking that everything needs to progress. But then, we find ourself in a situation today where people who either are looking for jobs and doing everything they can to sell whatever resources they have, the sort of human resources, on a market that is usually quite cold and you don't really know what to do in order to, uh, progress and to make it. And also, for people who do have work, uh, they may be working in marketing or sales, and they may be working their, uh, ass off, and still by the end of the day, they're not really sure whether their effort really paid off or not.

   17. CWChris Williamson27:51

       Yep.

   18. CCCarl Cederström27:51

       But then when it comes to the gym now, you step into a CrossFit gym and you're there and you struggle and you fight and you sweat and you really put in all of the hard labor.

   19. CWChris Williamson28:05

       Mm-hmm.

   20. CCCarl Cederström28:06

       And it pays off.

   21. CWChris Williamson28:07

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CCCarl Cederström28:08

       I think it's really one of the few areas in life today where you can see progress.

   23. CWChris Williamson28:15

       You've got a much more-

   24. CCCarl Cederström28:16

       Um-

   25. CWChris Williamson28:16

       You've got a much more direct line of, uh, causation between your efforts put in and the results that come out the other end. Totally right, you need to-

   26. CCCarl Cederström28:26

       Exactly.

   27. CWChris Williamson28:26

       ... you need to navigate the, the office politics. You need to grease the right shoulders, and there's a lot more hurdles to get over. I think for some-

   28. CCCarl Cederström28:34

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson28:34

       ... people, that's why CrossFit is incredibly liberating, because people who maybe aren't at the top of their game in terms of societal values for what their particular job is can go in, and if they've been working their ass off and you as a successful businessman have been being lazy, they're gonna wipe the floor with you in the workout today. And it-

   30. CCCarl Cederström28:53

       Mm.
10. 29:16 – 32:17

    Bullshit jobs and the dangerous fusion of job status with human value

    1. CCCarl Cederström29:16

       That's right. You are your job, and then at the same time, uh, you, y- we also know that most people find their jobs, uh, essentially meaningless. So, you have David Graeber who came out with the book Bullshit Jobs, and, um, this was based on an essay he wrote a few years ago. So, a bullshit job is a job that is not only meaningless for you, but you consider the job to be meaningless, uh, on a more fundamental social, political level, in other words-

    2. CWChris Williamson29:46

       It literally has no use at all.

    3. CCCarl Cederström29:48

       ... if that job would not exist, the world would either be better off or, uh, as good-

    4. CWChris Williamson29:53

       (laughs) At least the same.

    5. CCCarl Cederström29:55

       ... at least the same.

    6. CWChris Williamson29:55

       Wow.

    7. CCCarl Cederström29:55

       Right. And, uh, they followed up, uh, after this essay, uh, they made a, a survey, a YouGov survey, which showed that something like 37% of, uh, UK, uh, workers find their jobs to be bullshit. And I think this is hugely relevant, uh, when understanding the commitment and the addiction that a lot of people have to gym culture, that we're-... supposed to find meaning and again, uh, progression. And we're supposed to be able to display that progression and show people that we are progressing. We're supposed to do that in our working life, but it's just really, really difficult for most people-

    8. CWChris Williamson30:41

       There's a lot of hurdles to get over, right?

    9. CCCarl Cederström30:41

       ... to be able to do that. I mean, if, if you do find yourself in a bull- in a so-called bullshit job, how are you going to be able to do that? And I think this is a, this is a great frustration for, for a lot of people. And, uh, really so- that tells, uh, tells us a lot about how, uh, you know, our culture is, is shaped today, where work is so essential. I mean, the only way to really be able to convincingly tell someone else that you have a meaningful life is to say that you do this meaningful work or that you are your work-

    10. CWChris Williamson31:16

        Mm-hmm.

    11. CCCarl Cederström31:16

        ... in some respects.

    12. CWChris Williamson31:17

        Yeah. Yeah. You're totally correct there. I think what's, what's really insidious about it is that someone's, uh, position within a hierarchal structure or how their job, um, is regarded by society at large becomes conflated with their value to society. Like, I know an awful lot of people, and I'm sure that you do as well, who are commercially incredibly successful, but I don't think that they add an awful lot to society. I don't think they have a massive amount of value to add. However, I've also got some friends who are struggling students or singers who can't make it, can't re- haven't made a break yet, but that, uh, add so much value to my life. I think they're fantastic, uh, uh, fantastic members of society and their value in, in quotation marks is, in my eyes, significantly higher. And it's this-

    13. CCCarl Cederström32:04

        Mm-hmm.

    14. CWChris Williamson32:04

        ... conflation of value of, uh, job status with value in society that seems, it seems w- we should treat that with a lot of trepidation, I think.

    15. CCCarl Cederström32:14

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I agree.

11. 32:17 – 42:08

    Where optimization breaks: the un-optimizable parts of being human

    1. CWChris Williamson32:17

       I think one of the other things that's interesting to, to kind of bookend the optimization bit, coming at it from the other angle, you're a, a professor of business. And in business, the way that... (sighs) the way that companies have become better or more effective over the years is that you try and approach, you look at what works, remodel that, you refine it, and then rinse and repeat over time.

    2. CCCarl Cederström32:43

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson32:43

       That it's split testing, right? It's a, uh, a way of the commercial world essentially emulating what happens in the evolutionary world.

    4. CCCarl Cederström32:53

       Mm-hmm.

    5. CWChris Williamson32:54

       And to one degree, there must be more effective ways and less effective ways to operate within the world. There must be good ways to exist as a human, and there must be bad ways, or there must be better ways and worse ways are probably a more effective way of saying it. So is this optimization movement a bit of a bastardization of that somehow? Is it where that's kind of become twisted?

    6. CCCarl Cederström33:19

       Well, so, so one thing that really came out of the, of the optimization project is that there are, I think, clear limitations on what can be optimized-

    7. CWChris Williamson33:28

       Mm-hmm.

    8. CCCarl Cederström33:28

       ... and, uh, what, what areas allow themselves to, to become optimized. Uh, so obviously when it comes to say, uh, productivity or, or making money or anything that would be of a more kind of practical or instrumental nature, you could optimize. But as soon as it comes to raising, you know, deeper philosophical question of what it means to be a human being, what does it mean to be an ethical human being, uh, what does it mean to, uh, connect in a loving way with, with other human beings? Then all of a sudden you see the algorithms, (laughs) the apps, uh, all of these different sort of, um, operating systems to, uh, crash down.

    9. CWChris Williamson34:12

       They all break down, right?

    10. CCCarl Cederström34:13

        And they would have very, they would have very, very little to, uh, offer us. So I mean, I think as much as we could find useful advice to help us through, uh, the day, uh, I think the, the danger, I mean the great danger of optimization culture is that we begin losing sight of those deeper questions of what it means to be human and, uh, what it is (laughs) that we want to do with our lives. Because obviously, and this is kind of how you, you phrased your question previously, is that as soon as you've reached this target or save up a bit of time by having implemented a new technique, then you use time that you've saved up to find more ways-

    11. CWChris Williamson34:54

        (laughs)

    12. CCCarl Cederström34:54

        ... more techniques to save up more time, and then all of a sudden you have no freaking clue what to do with that time. And, um, so I think that's, that, that really is a, a great danger of applying these mechanisms to all areas of, of lives. Now, I deeply believe there are things and very important things I, I'd say the most essential things in life are really sort of outside the scope, outside the reach of optimization.

    13. CWChris Williamson35:22

        That's interesting. So you, you've touched on something there that I wanted to, to talk about as we move into the, the discussion on your new book to do with happiness.

    14. CCCarl Cederström35:30

        Mm-hmm.

    15. CWChris Williamson35:31

        Is... Uh, halfway between the two, is the optimization movement, is it to do with individual sovereignty versus more of a collective, um, kind of altruistic c- community, society approached, um, uh, desire to move everyone forward together? Is it, uh, the isolation a byproduct of the 21st century in capitalism, do you think?

    16. CCCarl Cederström35:59

        Um, s- sorry. So you m- you meant that the optimization movement would be-

    17. CWChris Williamson36:04

        Yeah.

    18. CCCarl Cederström36:04

        ... one of these two alternatives? Or-

    19. CWChris Williamson36:06

        No, but the, the optimization movement, are people obsessing over the optimization movement because they no longer have that sense of community anymore? And-

    20. CCCarl Cederström36:14

        Oh, okay. Yeah.I, I, I guess you, sorry. Um, yeah, I mean, I think, I think clearly, I mean, this is what a lot of sociologists would, would say and, and usually you would date this back to sort of the 1970s, and, uh, uh, you have, um, you know, some, some key reference points like Christopher Lash writing in The Culture of Narcissism. You have Phillip Rief, uh, a little bit earlier th- than that, uh, speaking in The Triumph of the Therapeutic that really today, we have lost, uh, faith in these various institutions that used to give us meaning in life. And those institutions would be the family, would be, uh, church typically, would be work, all of these different social institutions that shapes, uh, and gave a sense of meaning to, to our lives just crushed down. And, uh, instead, we are supposed to find out by ourselves what the meaning in, in life is. And you really see how this sort of, the movement of the 1960s, which really had more of a kind of collective and political flavor to it turned into something different in the 1970s. Now, these are very sort of generalized remarks that I do here, but they would be, be true at least (laughs) when, when looking at the sort of development of, of the self, uh, health movement, and in particular, the many kind of, um, hu- th- these huge seminar trainings that popped up and became very popular in the 1970s-

    21. CWChris Williamson37:42

        Mm-hmm.

    22. CCCarl Cederström37:42

        ... where really the new emphasis was on the self and the authentic self. And the best one could do is to look inside and to forget about, uh, the world and the injustices that may exist elsewhere because now when you're here with yourself, it's only the cosmic universe and yourself that, that matters.

    23. CWChris Williamson38:06

        Yeah.

    24. CCCarl Cederström38:06

        And this was the kind of stuff that was being trained, uh, at a very famous, uh, seminar that I write about in the book called EST, called the Earhart Seminar Training, where, um... I can't remember now, but some- something like 700,000 people, I believe-

    25. CWChris Williamson38:24

        Oh my God.

    26. CCCarl Cederström38:24

        ... uh, went there between, uh, 1971 and 1984. And really-

    27. CWChris Williamson38:30

        (laughs)

    28. CCCarl Cederström38:31

        ... the, the, the message that, uh, people would receive during these very intensive week, uh, weekend-long trainings is that there are no victims in the world, that was a very, very crucial point, and that, uh, nothing in your life is decided, everything could be, uh, changed and, uh, there would be, uh, no excuses for, for anything. So this was like a new kind of, uh... it was a new version that sort of became a sort of global or, or, or at least a national in the US phenomenon. This, this, of course, spread to many other countries as well, but which, uh, had the kind of, uh, the same message that you find in the self-help books of the 1930s, you know, Norman Vincent Peale, How to Win Friends and Influence People-

    29. CWChris Williamson39:21

        Yeah.

    30. CCCarl Cederström39:22

        ... uh, Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill, which also interest... but, but the kind of interesting, uh, parallel there is that they came out at the back of the Great Depression-
12. 42:08 – 45:25

    The Happiness Fantasy: why ‘happiness’ is historically unstable and hard to measure

    1. CCCarl Cederström42:08

       Well, I mean, first of all, I don't believe, uh, in happiness, I mean, in the sense that there's, there is a, a true, uh, definition of, of happiness or that you could, could measure happiness in, in any-... uh, clear or scientific way. And, um, if you look at it historically, uh, there's a really, uh, rich and, um, uh, strange, uh, conceptual development and, uh, you could see how his- how- you know, if you look down history, you could see how happiness meant all different kinds of things in different eras.

    2. CWChris Williamson42:45

       How so?

    3. CCCarl Cederström42:46

       Um, well, I mean if you take the- in ancient Greece for example, and if you take, uh, the way Aristotle understood happiness, it was very strongly connected to developing a set of virtues. Uh, it could be to become more courageous, to become brave, or, you know, to become a better human being. But very, uh, fundamental to the belief of happiness at that time, was that true and complete happiness could only be enjoyed by the gods, not by human beings. The best that human beings could do would be to strive for happiness but never to attain happiness.

    4. CWChris Williamson43:23

       Okay.

    5. CCCarl Cederström43:24

       And that notion of happiness remains for a very, very long time. I mean, it remains during the Middle Ages, at which point happiness did not really exist at all in the, um, life on Earth, but only in the afterlife, in heaven.

    6. CWChris Williamson43:41

       Mm-hmm.

    7. CCCarl Cederström43:41

       So true and complete happiness was again something that was beyond, um, what a human could, could achieve. And in the Renaissance, that was the first time that happiness started to become seen as something that humans could, uh, not fully grasp, but something that they could glimpse at. And then it's in the Enlightenment and, um, with, uh, uh, interestingly philosophers like, um, uh, Marquis de Sade, but, um, also, uh, Rousseau and others, where happiness becomes not only something that you could achieve but something that you should achieve. So now, all of a sudden, happiness is something that is, uh, you know, something that- that- that we need to achieve. And interesting, the fir- (laughs) the first thing that happens is that that itself creates a lot of trouble (laughs) and a lot of misery, because when happiness is supposed to be there, supposed to be something that you could hold onto and live, then people start to- to feel miserable because they could not (laughs) , uh, achieve-

    8. CWChris Williamson44:58

       Well, they say-

    9. CCCarl Cederström44:58

       ... and grasp it...

    10. CWChris Williamson44:59

        ... they say that true agony is the person you are meeting the person you could have been, right? That's-

    11. CCCarl Cederström45:06

        (laughs)

    12. CWChris Williamson45:06

        ... that's- that's the worst kind of hell. And then rolling back to our last point when we were going through optimization, this allow- this individual agency making you the master of your own fate, what does that mean? That means you are not happy-

    13. CCCarl Cederström45:19

        Mm-hmm.

    14. CWChris Williamson45:19

        ... therefore you are unhappy and-

    15. CCCarl Cederström45:21

        Mm-hmm.

    16. CWChris Williamson45:21

        ... it's your fucking fault.

    17. CCCarl Cederström45:23

        Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

    18. CWChris Williamson45:25

        (laughs)

13. 45:25 – 53:16

    Freud vs. Wilhelm Reich: how authenticity, pleasure, and liberation shaped modern happiness

    1. CCCarl Cederström45:25

       But I mean, but if you- if- if you carry on, it's, uh, I mean even into the 20th century, I mean, the dominant understanding of happiness is that this is something that man, and this is what Freud said, uh, man, the human being is not particularly well-designed to, uh, achieve or- or- or be able to handle happiness. We're really good at unhappiness.

    2. CWChris Williamson45:48

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CCCarl Cederström45:48

       Unhappiness comes from everywhere. It comes from our body, it comes from our surrounding, it come from everywhere. Happiness, on the other hand, is very fleeting, it's very difficult to know where it comes from, when it comes. You know, you can't really hold onto it. So ma- so the human being and happiness were never really, uh, a couple made (laughs) for each other.

    4. CWChris Williamson46:10

       Do you- do you agree with that?

    5. CCCarl Cederström46:11

       But then, um, I think- I think I- I- I do, I do agree. I mean, I'm not- I'm not always in bed with Freud, but I think when it comes to-

    6. CWChris Williamson46:19

       (laughs) I wouldn't ever want to be in bed with Freud.

    7. CCCarl Cederström46:22

       ... to-

    8. CWChris Williamson46:22

       He had some very odd ideas...

    9. CCCarl Cederström46:23

       No. (laughs)

    10. CWChris Williamson46:23

        ... about what happens in bed.

    11. CCCarl Cederström46:25

        Yeah. Yeah. I'm not- I'm not- I'm not jumping in bed with him. But what's interesting is that, uh, in the 1920s, and this is, uh, one- what I write about in the hap- the- the happiness book, The Happiness Fantasy, that, uh, there's this other psychoanalyst who's really young at the time called Wilhelm Reich, and he makes a great impression on Freud. Freud believes, you know, he's- he's great, but there's a very strong disagreement between the two, which becomes very, um, obvious after a while. And that is how they see the relationship between, uh, happiness and the- the self, and also the relationship to society. So for Freud, as I just said, you know, the- the human being is not really cut out for happiness.

    12. CWChris Williamson47:15

        Mm-hmm.

    13. CCCarl Cederström47:15

        And society's role is to, you know, keep the human being, uh, under control. I mean, so we don't go berserk and do, uh, you know, go around and- and- and slaughter people.

    14. CWChris Williamson47:29

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    15. CCCarl Cederström47:29

        That's his- his view and why society is important.

    16. CWChris Williamson47:32

        Yeah.

    17. CCCarl Cederström47:32

        Reich, on the other hand, thought that society was really what, uh, repressed the human being, and it was society's fault with all its rules and regulations and norms, that people could not be as happy as they had the potential to be. And he thought that true happiness was about becoming liberated as a human being.

    18. CWChris Williamson47:54

        Mm-hmm.

    19. CCCarl Cederström47:55

        It was to become authentic. It was to become yourself. And very, very, uh, crucial...... to that process to become yourself, it's also to, uh, free yourself sexually, and for him it was to find your, uh, orga- uh, uh, orgastic, uh, potency. In other words, be able to have, uh, (laughs) multiple orgasms, or, or at least in a more, uh, sort of abstract way to, to be free from various forms of sexual inhibitions. So he was a-

    20. CWChris Williamson48:27

        Was that... It was, it was... Is that partnered with being polyamorous as well? Was he advocating multiple sexual partners?

    21. CCCarl Cederström48:33

        Yeah, yeah, I mean he was, I mean, I mean he would be, uh, uh, uh, in favor of that, and he hated family. He thought the family was a disease. He called this, uh, disease, and called it, uh, familitis.

    22. CWChris Williamson48:47

        (laughs)

    23. CCCarl Cederström48:47

        And, uh, but this was, uh... So this is a really strange, uh, guy, his work, really worth to, to, to look into, and you know-

    24. CWChris Williamson48:55

        It sounds fascinating.

    25. CCCarl Cederström48:56

        And he became more and more obsessed with his theories of, uh, this orgastic, uh, energy and started to design what is called orgone accumulator, which is this wooden box.

    26. CWChris Williamson49:09

        Oh my God.

    27. CCCarl Cederström49:09

        Like one of these sort of... Looking like one of these old, uh, telephone booths.

    28. CWChris Williamson49:14

        Okay.

    29. CCCarl Cederström49:14

        And, uh, they were made out of wood and then, uh, coated with, uh, some metals, and you were supposed to stand inside of these, uh, orgone accumulators and then receive the orgone energy, and this then supposedly was going to, to heal you, make you whole, make you authentic, and make you sexual. And all of this may sound nuts, but-

    30. CWChris Williamson49:39

        It sounds like Scientology. (laughs)
14. 53:16 – 56:09

    When happiness becomes exploitation: corporations, ‘authentic’ smiles, and regulating lives

    1. CCCarl Cederström53:16

       ... uh, the happiness fantasy consisting of these values is used, I believe, more often than not as a way, uh, as, as, as a way of, of exploiting people-

    2. CWChris Williamson53:27

       Yeah.

    3. CCCarl Cederström53:27

       ... or, or even, uh, you know, a- as a euphemism for, for making us do things which we know is bad for us, such as-

    4. CWChris Williamson53:36

       (laughs)

    5. CCCarl Cederström53:37

       ... you know, just work more or, or, and then, uh, you know, brainwash ourself and say that this is really what, (laughs) what I want to do. Um-

    6. CWChris Williamson53:46

       Well, I think i- it's interesting that you touched on capitalism earlier on, that as soon as you have a desire for anything, inevitably, that opens up a market for it.

    7. CCCarl Cederström53:55

       Mm-hmm.

    8. CWChris Williamson53:56

       I recently, recently did a podcast with, um, Dan Harris's co-writer Jeff Warren, and-

    9. CCCarl Cederström54:02

       Mm-hmm.

    10. CWChris Williamson54:02

        ... on that podcast, we discussed the fact that meditation and mindfulness practice are supposed to be this... it's the dissolving of the ego, right? It, it, it's, it's complete openness, et cetera, et cetera, but as there's a, a move towards mindfulness on a societal level-... that also means that there's the option for people to make money. And as soon as there's the option for people to make money off it, charlatans appear-

    11. CCCarl Cederström54:26

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    12. CWChris Williamson54:26

        ... and people who want to exploit others who want that in their life and think that it's going to give them meaning. So, you know, people chasing happiness, the demand, if the demand is there for something, the supply will not sh- s- shortly afterwards follow, surely.

    13. CCCarl Cederström54:41

        Yeah. I mean, I think, I think just one sort of short example or illustration, uh, of how, uh, ludicrous it has become today to, to think about, you know, where, where, where you would (laughs) find instances of, of happiness or even authentic happiness-

    14. CWChris Williamson54:56

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    15. CCCarl Cederström54:57

        ... is, uh, Pret A Manger, which you know about, obviously, living in the UK-

    16. CWChris Williamson55:01

        (laughs)

    17. CCCarl Cederström55:02

        ... the, uh, su- you know, the, uh, the, the, the fast food chain, where as part of their work culture, the employees are supposed not just to be happy, you know, smile w- and greet the customers-

    18. CWChris Williamson55:16

        Mm-hmm.

    19. CCCarl Cederström55:16

        ... and, and, uh, take the money and give them a sandwich, they also need to do that authentically. And, and-

    20. CWChris Williamson55:22

        Okay.

    21. CCCarl Cederström55:22

        ... that is when you, when you begin to see how these values, when they were first, uh, developed, you know, in this case then, uh, with Wilhelm Reich in the 1920s, how they have been transformed through, uh, market capitalism, through corporations, which, you know, very cunningly have been using, uh, these words, but then twisted them and, and, uh, uh, made use of them for, for their own ends.

    22. CWChris Williamson55:52

        That's really, uh, it's quite disturbing, isn't it? That you've got, you've got someone who is saying that you need to be authentically happy, and by the way, the happiness that we're talking about is narrowly defined within the last 100 years or so.

    23. CCCarl Cederström56:08

        Mm-hmm. That's right.

15. 56:09 – 1:09:58

    Beyond happiness: meaning, love, vulnerability—and the search for new life templates

    1. CWChris Williamson56:09

       So, of all of, of all of the definitions of happiness that you've come across, have you got one which you have found to be closest to what you think happiness is? Of all of the years, the, the several thousand years or... Uh, it, without it, it seems to be a, a fairly despondent, barren wasteland where this happiness word is almost useless.

    2. CCCarl Cederström56:29

       (laughs) No, I mean, not at all. I mean, I think, I think you could live a life with, without happiness. I mean, I think, okay, so my, my, my best sort of definition of, of happiness is not really a definition, but there's this sort of back and forth between, uh, Vladimir and Estragon in Samuel Beckett's play, Waiting for Godot, and I think this is really a great illustration of what happiness is. So, I think it's Vladimir who goes, uh, first to, to Estragon or the other way around. Anyway, he goes, uh, "Say that, say that you're happy." "Uh, why?" "Well, just say that you're happy." "Okay, I am happy." "Say it again." "I am happy." "Okay, we are happy." And then they say, "We are happy." And then Estragon goes, "What should we do now, now that we're happy?" And I, I love that line because, I mean, I think, I think that really (laughs) , you know, if we become happy, the question is, okay, what do we do now- (laughs)

    3. CWChris Williamson57:28

       (laughs)

    4. CCCarl Cederström57:28

       ... now that we are happy? And, and I think it points to, to kind of the, I mean, it's, it's such a powerful concept because, and it really, I think it's really a, a guiding principle for how we live our lives.

    5. CWChris Williamson57:42

       Mm-hmm.

    6. CCCarl Cederström57:43

       And, and in that sense, I mean, I think, I think it's important because it, it really constitutes the templates for what, what we consider to be a good life as opposed to a bad life, uh, which of course is, is contingent on, on the culture we live in. But, uh, I believe you could live without a clear, uh, definition of happiness and instead, um, use other words such as meaning, or you could use, uh, you know, words such as love or, or friendship. I mean, I think we, we do have enough concepts to guide us (laughs) , uh, in, in our pursuit to live meaningful, good, uh, fulfilling, uh, lives in whatever way we like to do that. But, but happiness is just such a broad and vague abstract term that is now, I think, used and have been for a long time by politicians and corporations in, in very cunning and, uh, disingenuous ways. So, I mean, I'm, I'm quite tempted to think that happiness is something we could leave to, uh, the people, uh, working on the next advertisement for-

    7. CWChris Williamson58:57

       Mm-hmm.

    8. CCCarl Cederström58:57

       ... uh, a, a soft drink or, um, some, some fast food and then, uh, the rest of us could, could live happily (laughs) .

    9. CWChris Williamson59:06

       Yeah. Yeah. In whatever-

    10. CCCarl Cederström59:08

        Uh, with-

    11. CWChris Williamson59:08

        ... form, whatever form that is.

    12. CCCarl Cederström59:09

        (laughs)

    13. CWChris Williamson59:10

        It's, it's interesting that you talk about this kind of meta term of happiness, and it, it sounds to me an awful lot like someone saying, "You need to be good at sports." And in no way does me telling you that you need to be good at sports help you become a good runner or become a good cyclist, because sports and the achievement of being good at sports is created by a much more granular set of effects that build up towards that.

    14. CCCarl Cederström59:42

        Mm-hmm.

    15. CWChris Williamson59:43

        And I think, yeah, it, it's a, a very, a very interesting view to have that, that, I mean, I'm sure everybody who is listening and probably you yourself at some point on social media will have seen the quote, uh, "Happiness is the path, not the destination."

    16. CCCarl Cederström1:00:00

        Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:00:02

        And to, uh, in, uh, one of this weird twists of fate that this incredibly, um, Instagram-worthy (laughs) sort of, it sounds like the sort of thing that you could buy at IKEA, um, quote, actually isn't, isn't a million miles away if what I'm to take that you've said today is true, happiness is a set of guiding principles. In fact, to a degree, happiness is almost the, um...... optimize it. It's the pinnacle of the optimization, optimization strategy, and you aim, you aim your trajectory towards that.

    18. CCCarl Cederström1:00:38

        Mm-hmm.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:00:38

        And along the way, you pick up the appropriate prerequisites to meet happiness. And as long as you don't expect it to ever arrive, what actually happens is you find fulfillment in the small tasks that you accomplish along the way.

    20. CCCarl Cederström1:00:53

        Yeah, I mean, I think that, that could, that could be one way of, of, of doing it, definitely. But, I mean, I think, I think happiness, or, I mean, another term which, which some people, uh, prefer to use, and, and I would agree with them, is, is joy, where, where joy is, is something that could arrive in a, in a more spontaneous way.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:01:15

        Mm-hmm.

    22. CCCarl Cederström1:01:15

        And I think some people have argued and, and Pascalle Bruckner is, is one, uh, Lynn Siegel is, is another, and I, I agree with, with both of them, that what we need to be able to do is to be open to and, uh, and not push happiness or, or joy away. But at the same time being quite careful with how happiness and, uh, immersing yourself, uh, you know, doing everything you can to achieve happiness is, is also in, in many ways dangerous, because it could, it could lead you astray, I mean, because, uh, there's so many people who will, you know, tell you what, what a happy life is. I mean, I think, um, another definition of this, of course, is from a sort of feminist, uh, movement, how, how a happy, uh, woman has been very, uh, closely bound up with how a woman should be like.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:02:09

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    24. CCCarl Cederström1:02:10

        You know, it's the happy housewife, and her happiness is bound up exclusively with making sure that the family's happy, that the man would have her, his, uh, clean-

    25. CWChris Williamson1:02:20

        Dinner on the table.

    26. CCCarl Cederström1:02:21

        ... era dinner on the table. And there's really no happiness at all for, (laughs) for that-

    27. CWChris Williamson1:02:27

        (laughs)

    28. CCCarl Cederström1:02:27

        ... housewife. I mean, if you, if, if you go back and, and read, read the stories about how housewives felt in the 1950s, I mean, they felt anything but-

    29. CWChris Williamson1:02:35

        (laughs)

    30. CCCarl Cederström1:02:35

        ... but happiness, but still they were really that model of, of happiness. I mean, another example would be, um, gay people and there's a, sorry for all this name dropping, but it's just, but Sara Ahmed-

Episode duration: 1:09:58