What Happens When You Dedicate A Year To Optimising Your Life | Carl Cederstrom

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (wind blowing) Hi, friends. We…

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      (wind blowing) Hi, friends. We are back again, and this week we're talking about life hacks, but perhaps with a little bit of a different angle. Carl Cederström is an associate professor at Stockholm Business School, part of Stockholm University, and his writing has appeared in the New York Times, The Guardian, The Atlantic, and Harvard Business Review, amongst many others. Carl spent 12 months immersed in the human optimization movement. Him and his co-author, Andre Spicer, dedicated one month of the year to a different area of their life and trying to optimize it as much as possible. This is the (laughs) absolute zenith Mount Everest of trying to optimize your life, and the experiences that Carl went through have elicited some really, really interesting (laughs) results. He'll tell us exactly what, out of 12 months of pure optimization, was the single best tool that he came across, how he was able to optimize his sex, his relationships, his vanity, his looks, his finances, and a whole bunch of other things. And then we move on to his new book, which is called The Happiness Fantasy. Now, recently we've discussed happiness quite a bit with Susanna Hallinan and in the Q&A that I did with Jonny and Yousef, and it's, uh, interesting to see Carl's approach to it. He makes a strong case that happiness isn't something that any of us should be aiming for, and that there are much more worthy terms that would make us much more fulfilled and content within life. I'm gonna leave it there. I won't present any spoilers (laughs) for the rest of the episode, but I wanted to give another shout-out to Scott McGrath, who sent in a screenshot of him sending out on (laughs) another company internal intranet one of our podcast episodes. Now, thanks very much for that, Scott. I really appreciate it. Again, if you do manage to share one of the episodes on a big network, please let me know, and I'll be able to give you a shout-out on a future episode. Coming up soon, we have got How to Survive University, me, Jonny, and Yousef talking about that, and the long-awaited Life Fails 101 Edition, which is essentially the antithesis to our very slick approach to human optimization. So, there's lots of exciting stuff coming up, but for now, here's Carl. (upbeat music) Mr. Carl Cederström, how are you today?

   2. CCCarl Cederström2:43

      I'm very good, thank you. How are you doing?

   3. CWChris Williamson2:45

      Very good, thank you. All the way from the increasingly cold England at the moment. Where are you in the world?

   4. CCCarl Cederström2:53

      I'm, uh, in the increasingly cold, uh, Sweden, uh, Stockholm, to be precise.

   5. CWChris Williamson2:59

      (laughs) Very nice. You're an associate professor at Stockholm Business School, right?

   6. CCCarl Cederström3:04

      That's right, which is part of Stockholm University.

   7. CWChris Williamson3:07

      Fantastic. For the listeners at home, could you give us a little bit of a background to yourself, please?

   8. CCCarl Cederström3:12

      All right. Um, well, I live in Sweden, been living in, in the UK, in Cardiff for a few years, but now based here, live in Stockholm, two children, a wife, and the author of, uh, uh, a few books, which I believe we will talk a little bit about. What else can I tell you? That's it, really, I think-

   9. CWChris Williamson3:34

      (laughs)

   10. CCCarl Cederström3:35

       ... that, that would be necessary to know, uh, for, for now.

   11. CWChris Williamson3:36

       That's the, that's the brief, the, The Zeitgeist Tape to Carl Cederström. I like it.

   12. CCCarl Cederström3:40

       (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson3:41

       Did you, uh, did you manage to tune your hearing into the Welsh accent very quickly when you were over there?

   14. CCCarl Cederström3:49

       Well, I mean, I could, I could still now today spot it and recognize it quite easily, much more easily than before, but I was never able to imitate it or-

   15. CWChris Williamson3:58

       (laughs)

   16. CCCarl Cederström3:59

       ... or speak anything like the, the Welsh accent. It's very, it's very subtle. I mean, I'm, um, you know, my English is, is just, uh, too inferior to imitate any kind of, uh, accent. Uh, just the Swedish. Maybe, maybe I could do a, a, a French, German, or, or Danish accent if I really tried to.

   17. CWChris Williamson4:17

       I got you. I got you.

   18. CCCarl Cederström4:17

       (laughs)

   19. CWChris Williamson4:17

       Well, I won't, uh, I won't make you jump through that hurdle today.

   20. CCCarl Cederström4:20

       Thanks. (laughs)

   21. CWChris Williamson4:21

       That's okay. Um, so I wanna get straight into it. Um, you have had an interesting journey with the, uh, field of human optimization. Would that be fair to say?

   22. CCCarl Cederström4:33

       Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's fair to say.

   23. CWChris Williamson4:35

       (laughs)

   24. CCCarl Cederström4:35

       (laughs)

   25. CWChris Williamson4:36

       So, as, as-

   26. CCCarl Cederström4:37

       (laughs)

   27. CWChris Williamson4:37

       ... a lot of the listeners will know, we have... Our most popular series is a sequence of episodes called Life Hacks, and on those, we try and find tips and tricks, strategies and approaches for a productive and efficient life.

   28. CCCarl Cederström4:52

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CWChris Williamson4:52

       And you took the human optimization movement to an extreme for 12 months, yourself and your co-author and friend, Andre Spicer. Is that right?

   30. CCCarl Cederström5:03

       That's right. I mean, the background to that project is that, uh, both me and Andre, uh, two university professors who've spent just too much time in our life, uh, in front of a computer, sitting, uh, on a chair, um, in our offices and, and studying various things, and we've both been interested for a long time in the optimization movement. We've been interested in, in self-help culture, and we wrote a book a number of years ago called The Wellness Syndrome-
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. CCCarl Cederström15:00

      to start, and then you kind of recuperated enough so you could keep going. And it's interesting if you do this over the course of- of a day, because I think the first, uh, five or six Pomodoros, you think that, "Okay, I don't really need to take a break now," but it really gives you the stamina to carry on working for a much longer period of time and-

   2. CWChris Williamson15:21

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CCCarl Cederström15:21

      ... still in a- a concentrated fashion. So that, and also the addition of- of some medications which I was experimenting with, which worked really well. But, uh, that was really the- the key to getting the- the book- the book done, even though it's fairly short (laughs) -

   4. CWChris Williamson15:40

      (laughs)

   5. CCCarl Cederström15:40

      ... and- and- and it was rejected by the first publisher.

   6. CWChris Williamson15:42

      Oh, dear.

   7. CCCarl Cederström15:42

      And, uh, but the- the finished project- pro- product, the one I've sent to you, is- has- I- I did (laughs) have to work it over, uh, last autumn anyway. But, uh, uh, so yeah, I think, uh, if- if I had to single out one thing that really worked over the course of that year, I'd say productivity.

   8. CWChris Williamson16:00

      Well, that's ... The Pomodoro technique is a common theme. I'm- I- I promise to the listeners at home that we're not sponsored by the Pomodoro technique, but (laughs) the, uh-

   9. CCCarl Cederström16:10

      (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson16:10

       ... there seems to be ... It- it definitely seems to be a tool of choice for writers and creative types. Dr. Ewan Lawson, who I did a podcast with, that was, uh, a lot to do with the ergonomics of your desk environment, your general working environment, he said that he could go back through 150 Pomodoros that he did, and he could track absolutely everything he'd done during his-

   11. CCCarl Cederström16:33

       Hmm.

   12. CWChris Williamson16:33

       ... contribution to the book that he wrote, which he co-authored.

   13. CCCarl Cederström16:36

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson16:36

       And he could go back through, and he actually came up with ... It's interesting that you- you touched on looking out of the window-

   15. CCCarl Cederström16:43

       Mm-hmm.

   16. CWChris Williamson16:43

       ... because he came up with a rule called the 20/20/20 rule, which I guess with the Pomodoro would be the 25/20/20.

   17. CCCarl Cederström16:52

       Mm-hmm.

   18. CWChris Williamson16:52

       But what he talks about is, um, refocusing the eyes on an object which is 20 feet away for 20 seconds every 20 minutes-

   19. CCCarl Cederström17:00

       Mm-hmm.

   20. CWChris Williamson17:01

       ... and one of the reasons for this is to reset the, uh, oculus muscles within the-

   21. CCCarl Cederström17:06

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CWChris Williamson17:06

       ... with- within the eye, um, to reduce eye strain, reduce tension headaches, and a few other bits and pieces. But I, since that and over the last six months have tried to implement the Pomodoro technique as much as I can, and for-

   23. CCCarl Cederström17:19

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson17:19

       ... anyone who is listening, they will know that we are a massive fan of the Pomodoro technique for productivity. I think time boxing anything ... Like, Parkinson's law is just ... I- I- it's like one of ... It's like gravity, right? I think for a lot of people, it's just something that you cannot get around. Work expands to fill the time given for it. And-

   25. CCCarl Cederström17:38

       Mm-hmm.

   26. CWChris Williamson17:39

       ... when you give yourself that countdown clock in the corner of the screen or the- the little-

   27. CCCarl Cederström17:43

       Mm-hmm.

   28. CWChris Williamson17:43

       ... turning away egg timer or whatever it is, it just reminds you ... It usually reminds you how much fucking time you're wasting (laughs) , I think. (laughs)

   29. CCCarl Cederström17:52

       Uh, yeah. I mean, definitely. I mean, it- it was really remarkable, because, uh, I was f- for every chapter I was writing, I was just, you know, in the app, you could choose what activity you're-

   30. CWChris Williamson18:03

       Yeah.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   There's a lot of…

   1. CCCarl Cederström30:00

      essay, uh, they made a, a survey, a YouGov survey, which showed that something like 37% of, uh, UK, uh, workers find their jobs to be bullshit. And I think this is hugely relevant, uh, when understanding the commitment and the addiction that a lot of people have to gym culture, that we're-... supposed to find meaning and again, uh, progression. And we're supposed to be able to display that progression and show people that we are progressing. We're supposed to do that in our working life, but it's just really, really difficult for most people-

   2. CWChris Williamson30:41

      There's a lot of hurdles to get over, right?

   3. CCCarl Cederström30:41

      ... to be able to do that. I mean, if, if you do find yourself in a bull- in a so-called bullshit job, how are you going to be able to do that? And I think this is a, this is a great frustration for, for a lot of people. And, uh, really so- that tells, uh, tells us a lot about how, uh, you know, our culture is, is shaped today, where work is so essential. I mean, the only way to really be able to convincingly tell someone else that you have a meaningful life is to say that you do this meaningful work or that you are your work-

   4. CWChris Williamson31:16

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CCCarl Cederström31:16

      ... in some respects.

   6. CWChris Williamson31:17

      Yeah. Yeah. You're totally correct there. I think what's, what's really insidious about it is that someone's, uh, position within a hierarchal structure or how their job, um, is regarded by society at large becomes conflated with their value to society. Like, I know an awful lot of people, and I'm sure that you do as well, who are commercially incredibly successful, but I don't think that they add an awful lot to society. I don't think they have a massive amount of value to add. However, I've also got some friends who are struggling students or singers who can't make it, can't re- haven't made a break yet, but that, uh, add so much value to my life. I think they're fantastic, uh, uh, fantastic members of society and their value in, in quotation marks is, in my eyes, significantly higher. And it's this-

   7. CCCarl Cederström32:04

      Mm-hmm.

   8. CWChris Williamson32:04

      ... conflation of value of, uh, job status with value in society that seems, it seems w- we should treat that with a lot of trepidation, I think.

   9. CCCarl Cederström32:14

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I agree.

   10. CWChris Williamson32:17

       I think one of the other things that's interesting to, to kind of bookend the optimization bit, coming at it from the other angle, you're a, a professor of business. And in business, the way that... (sighs) the way that companies have become better or more effective over the years is that you try and approach, you look at what works, remodel that, you refine it, and then rinse and repeat over time.

   11. CCCarl Cederström32:43

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CWChris Williamson32:43

       That it's split testing, right? It's a, uh, a way of the commercial world essentially emulating what happens in the evolutionary world.

   13. CCCarl Cederström32:53

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson32:54

       And to one degree, there must be more effective ways and less effective ways to operate within the world. There must be good ways to exist as a human, and there must be bad ways, or there must be better ways and worse ways are probably a more effective way of saying it. So is this optimization movement a bit of a bastardization of that somehow? Is it where that's kind of become twisted?

   15. CCCarl Cederström33:19

       Well, so, so one thing that really came out of the, of the optimization project is that there are, I think, clear limitations on what can be optimized-

   16. CWChris Williamson33:28

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CCCarl Cederström33:28

       ... and, uh, what, what areas allow themselves to, to become optimized. Uh, so obviously when it comes to say, uh, productivity or, or making money or anything that would be of a more kind of practical or instrumental nature, you could optimize. But as soon as it comes to raising, you know, deeper philosophical question of what it means to be a human being, what does it mean to be an ethical human being, uh, what does it mean to, uh, connect in a loving way with, with other human beings? Then all of a sudden you see the algorithms, (laughs) the apps, uh, all of these different sort of, um, operating systems to, uh, crash down.

   18. CWChris Williamson34:12

       They all break down, right?

   19. CCCarl Cederström34:13

       And they would have very, they would have very, very little to, uh, offer us. So I mean, I think as much as we could find useful advice to help us through, uh, the day, uh, I think the, the danger, I mean the great danger of optimization culture is that we begin losing sight of those deeper questions of what it means to be human and, uh, what it is (laughs) that we want to do with our lives. Because obviously, and this is kind of how you, you phrased your question previously, is that as soon as you've reached this target or save up a bit of time by having implemented a new technique, then you use time that you've saved up to find more ways-

   20. CWChris Williamson34:54

       (laughs)

   21. CCCarl Cederström34:54

       ... more techniques to save up more time, and then all of a sudden you have no freaking clue what to do with that time. And, um, so I think that's, that, that really is a, a great danger of applying these mechanisms to all areas of, of lives. Now, I deeply believe there are things and very important things I, I'd say the most essential things in life are really sort of outside the scope, outside the reach of optimization.

   22. CWChris Williamson35:22

       That's interesting. So you, you've touched on something there that I wanted to, to talk about as we move into the, the discussion on your new book to do with happiness.

   23. CCCarl Cederström35:30

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson35:31

       Is... Uh, halfway between the two, is the optimization movement, is it to do with individual sovereignty versus more of a collective, um, kind of altruistic c- community, society approached, um, uh, desire to move everyone forward together? Is it, uh, the isolation a byproduct of the 21st century in capitalism, do you think?

   25. CCCarl Cederström35:59

       Um, s- sorry. So you m- you meant that the optimization movement would be-

   26. CWChris Williamson36:04

       Yeah.

   27. CCCarl Cederström36:04

       ... one of these two alternatives? Or-

   28. CWChris Williamson36:06

       No, but the, the optimization movement, are people obsessing over the optimization movement because they no longer have that sense of community anymore? And-

   29. CCCarl Cederström36:14

       Oh, okay. Yeah.I, I, I guess you, sorry. Um, yeah, I mean, I think, I think clearly, I mean, this is what a lot of sociologists would, would say and, and usually you would date this back to sort of the 1970s, and, uh, uh, you have, um, you know, some, some key reference points like Christopher Lash writing in The Culture of Narcissism. You have Phillip Rief, uh, a little bit earlier th- than that, uh, speaking in The Triumph of the Therapeutic that really today, we have lost, uh, faith in these various institutions that used to give us meaning in life. And those institutions would be the family, would be, uh, church typically, would be work, all of these different social institutions that shapes, uh, and gave a sense of meaning to, to our lives just crushed down. And, uh, instead, we are supposed to find out by ourselves what the meaning in, in life is. And you really see how this sort of, the movement of the 1960s, which really had more of a kind of collective and political flavor to it turned into something different in the 1970s. Now, these are very sort of generalized remarks that I do here, but they would be, be true at least (laughs) when, when looking at the sort of development of, of the self, uh, health movement, and in particular, the many kind of, um, hu- th- these huge seminar trainings that popped up and became very popular in the 1970s-

   30. CWChris Williamson37:42

       Mm-hmm.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   (laughs) …

   1. CWChris Williamson45:00

      say that true agony is the person you are meeting the person you could have been, right? That's-

   2. CCCarl Cederström45:06

      (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson45:06

      ... that's- that's the worst kind of hell. And then rolling back to our last point when we were going through optimization, this allow- this individual agency making you the master of your own fate, what does that mean? That means you are not happy-

   4. CCCarl Cederström45:19

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson45:19

      ... therefore you are unhappy and-

   6. CCCarl Cederström45:21

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson45:21

      ... it's your fucking fault.

   8. CCCarl Cederström45:23

      Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

   9. CWChris Williamson45:25

      (laughs)

   10. CCCarl Cederström45:25

       But I mean, but if you- if- if you carry on, it's, uh, I mean even into the 20th century, I mean, the dominant understanding of happiness is that this is something that man, and this is what Freud said, uh, man, the human being is not particularly well-designed to, uh, achieve or- or- or be able to handle happiness. We're really good at unhappiness.

   11. CWChris Williamson45:48

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CCCarl Cederström45:48

       Unhappiness comes from everywhere. It comes from our body, it comes from our surrounding, it come from everywhere. Happiness, on the other hand, is very fleeting, it's very difficult to know where it comes from, when it comes. You know, you can't really hold onto it. So ma- so the human being and happiness were never really, uh, a couple made (laughs) for each other.

   13. CWChris Williamson46:10

       Do you- do you agree with that?

   14. CCCarl Cederström46:11

       But then, um, I think- I think I- I- I do, I do agree. I mean, I'm not- I'm not always in bed with Freud, but I think when it comes to-

   15. CWChris Williamson46:19

       (laughs) I wouldn't ever want to be in bed with Freud.

   16. CCCarl Cederström46:22

       ... to-

   17. CWChris Williamson46:22

       He had some very odd ideas...

   18. CCCarl Cederström46:23

       No. (laughs)

   19. CWChris Williamson46:23

       ... about what happens in bed.

   20. CCCarl Cederström46:25

       Yeah. Yeah. I'm not- I'm not- I'm not jumping in bed with him. But what's interesting is that, uh, in the 1920s, and this is, uh, one- what I write about in the hap- the- the happiness book, The Happiness Fantasy, that, uh, there's this other psychoanalyst who's really young at the time called Wilhelm Reich, and he makes a great impression on Freud. Freud believes, you know, he's- he's great, but there's a very strong disagreement between the two, which becomes very, um, obvious after a while. And that is how they see the relationship between, uh, happiness and the- the self, and also the relationship to society. So for Freud, as I just said, you know, the- the human being is not really cut out for happiness.

   21. CWChris Williamson47:15

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CCCarl Cederström47:15

       And society's role is to, you know, keep the human being, uh, under control. I mean, so we don't go berserk and do, uh, you know, go around and- and- and slaughter people.

   23. CWChris Williamson47:29

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   24. CCCarl Cederström47:29

       That's his- his view and why society is important.

   25. CWChris Williamson47:32

       Yeah.

   26. CCCarl Cederström47:32

       Reich, on the other hand, thought that society was really what, uh, repressed the human being, and it was society's fault with all its rules and regulations and norms, that people could not be as happy as they had the potential to be. And he thought that true happiness was about becoming liberated as a human being.

   27. CWChris Williamson47:54

       Mm-hmm.

   28. CCCarl Cederström47:55

       It was to become authentic. It was to become yourself. And very, very, uh, crucial...... to that process to become yourself, it's also to, uh, free yourself sexually, and for him it was to find your, uh, orga- uh, uh, orgastic, uh, potency. In other words, be able to have, uh, (laughs) multiple orgasms, or, or at least in a more, uh, sort of abstract way to, to be free from various forms of sexual inhibitions. So he was a-

   29. CWChris Williamson48:27

       Was that... It was, it was... Is that partnered with being polyamorous as well? Was he advocating multiple sexual partners?

   30. CCCarl Cederström48:33

       Yeah, yeah, I mean he was, I mean, I mean he would be, uh, uh, uh, in favor of that, and he hated family. He thought the family was a disease. He called this, uh, disease, and called it, uh, familitis.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:09:58

   Mm-hmm. Yeah. …

   1. CWChris Williamson1:00:00

   2. CCCarl Cederström1:00:00

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:00:02

      And to, uh, in, uh, one of this weird twists of fate that this incredibly, um, Instagram-worthy (laughs) sort of, it sounds like the sort of thing that you could buy at IKEA, um, quote, actually isn't, isn't a million miles away if what I'm to take that you've said today is true, happiness is a set of guiding principles. In fact, to a degree, happiness is almost the, um...... optimize it. It's the pinnacle of the optimization, optimization strategy, and you aim, you aim your trajectory towards that.

   4. CCCarl Cederström1:00:38

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:00:38

      And along the way, you pick up the appropriate prerequisites to meet happiness. And as long as you don't expect it to ever arrive, what actually happens is you find fulfillment in the small tasks that you accomplish along the way.

   6. CCCarl Cederström1:00:53

      Yeah, I mean, I think that, that could, that could be one way of, of, of doing it, definitely. But, I mean, I think, I think happiness, or, I mean, another term which, which some people, uh, prefer to use, and, and I would agree with them, is, is joy, where, where joy is, is something that could arrive in a, in a more spontaneous way.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:01:15

      Mm-hmm.

   8. CCCarl Cederström1:01:15

      And I think some people have argued and, and Pascalle Bruckner is, is one, uh, Lynn Siegel is, is another, and I, I agree with, with both of them, that what we need to be able to do is to be open to and, uh, and not push happiness or, or joy away. But at the same time being quite careful with how happiness and, uh, immersing yourself, uh, you know, doing everything you can to achieve happiness is, is also in, in many ways dangerous, because it could, it could lead you astray, I mean, because, uh, there's so many people who will, you know, tell you what, what a happy life is. I mean, I think, um, another definition of this, of course, is from a sort of feminist, uh, movement, how, how a happy, uh, woman has been very, uh, closely bound up with how a woman should be like.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:02:09

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   10. CCCarl Cederström1:02:10

       You know, it's the happy housewife, and her happiness is bound up exclusively with making sure that the family's happy, that the man would have her, his, uh, clean-

   11. CWChris Williamson1:02:20

       Dinner on the table.

   12. CCCarl Cederström1:02:21

       ... era dinner on the table. And there's really no happiness at all for, (laughs) for that-

   13. CWChris Williamson1:02:27

       (laughs)

   14. CCCarl Cederström1:02:27

       ... housewife. I mean, if you, if, if you go back and, and read, read the stories about how housewives felt in the 1950s, I mean, they felt anything but-

   15. CWChris Williamson1:02:35

       (laughs)

   16. CCCarl Cederström1:02:35

       ... but happiness, but still they were really that model of, of happiness. I mean, another example would be, um, gay people and there's a, sorry for all this name dropping, but it's just, but Sara Ahmed-

   17. CWChris Williamson1:02:47

       Throw it in.

   18. CCCarl Cederström1:02:47

       ... wrote this, D- S- Sara Ahmed wrote this book, uh, The Promise of Happiness, and, and she makes a really good point, I think, where, uh, how some parents would speak to the gay people that, "Well, you know, I just want you to be happy," which is a euphemism for, "Just please keep your sexual identity to yourself-"

   19. CWChris Williamson1:03:08

       (laughs)

   20. CCCarl Cederström1:03:08

       "... and live a normal heterosexual life." So, this, uh, desire to be happy and, and follow the route of happiness could also be extraordinarily constraining-

   21. CWChris Williamson1:03:19

       Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

   22. CCCarl Cederström1:03:20

       ... because we have so specific ideas of what it means to be happy, and our, sort of, happiness fantasies, as I call it in this book-

   23. CWChris Williamson1:03:27

       Yeah.

   24. CCCarl Cederström1:03:27

       ... tend to be very regulating. And you could be, uh, happy in, in, in a number of different ways, but not too many (laughs) different, different ways. You need to, you need to act it out according to, uh, an accepted formula. So, in that sense, and this is interesting if you look at the feminist movement, because they were, very rarely speak about happiness, but rather about freedom.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:03:50

       Yeah.

   26. CCCarl Cederström1:03:50

       And, and for them it would even be, if you take the housewife example, freedom from happiness, because happiness didn't have-

   27. CWChris Williamson1:03:57

       (laughs)

   28. CCCarl Cederström1:03:57

       ... all the kind of happiness fantasies that they were being trapped inside-

   29. CWChris Williamson1:04:01

       Yeah.

   30. CCCarl Cederström1:04:01

       ... were just miserable. They just produced misery. And, uh, so I think, you know, it might come a day where I will embrace happiness fully again.

Episode duration: 1:09:58