What Has Happened To The Love For America? - Jack Carr

1. 0:00 – 0:28

   Intro

   1. JCJack Carr0:00

      ... Twitter tells you something, an influencer tells you something, a politician tells you something, a news organization tells you something. What do they want to get out of that? They want a response, so you're being manipulated right there. So at least just to recognize that before immediately getting angry and retweeting something. Well, hey, take a breath. You owe it to that person who sacrificed everything in the Revolutionary War, in the Civil War, in World War I, in World War II. You can have these freedoms. Well, take a breath for them and study the issue a little bit. (jet whooshing)

   2. CWChris Williamson0:27

      You are somebody

2. 0:28 – 2:29

   Why Jack’s Books are So Personal

   1. CWChris Williamson0:28

      that is ex-military service, now an author. You have the opportunity to write out scenarios that may be inspired by stuff that you went through and stuff that's complete fantasy as well. How therapeutic do you find the process of being able to dispose of bad guys with as much, uh, inventiveness as you want and no restrictions at all?

   2. JCJack Carr0:50

      Right. Well, I joke that it keeps me out of prison, and that's only half-joking, I think, 'cause it is extremely therapeutic. And our senior-level military leaders and elected politicians give me a lot to work with. The world in general gives me a lot to work with these days. But, uh, at the outset, I didn't really realize that it was going to be something that was therapeutic or something that was intensely personal. I thought I'd get the sniper weapon stuff right, and if I didn't know who to talk to, or if I didn't know something about some sort of a- a tank or a plane or something, I at least knew who I could call to ask these questions. Um, but as soon as I started writing, and not even in the coming up with a title, coming up with a theme, coming up with a one-page executive summary, getting the outline done. It wasn't until I wrote the first words that I realized, "Oh, this is going to be extremely personal." And not so much in the fact that I am recreating exact scenarios that happened in Iraq or Afghanistan, but more so that if I have my character get ambushed in Los Angeles, California, as part of a completely fictional narrative, I go back and remember what it was like to be ambushed in Baghdad 2006, and I take those feelings and emotions and apply them to a completely fictional storyline. Uh, so that was personal. And then a lot of the other things that come in that are not so dramatic as that, that just help the story move forward, y- to... down to the- the, uh, the type of car that my protagonist drives and his wife drives. Um, like that sort of a thing. Just those little personal... The kind of music that his wife listens to and listened to, um, uh, in the first book. So, all those little things really ended up making it very personal, as did the, uh, the more dramatic, uh, action sequences where I go back and remember what it was like to be a sniper in Ramadi and then just take that and plop it into the fictional narrative.

3. 2:29 – 5:16

   When Jack Was Ambushed in Baghdad

   1. JCJack Carr2:29

   2. CWChris Williamson2:29

      Take us through that ambush in 2006.

   3. JCJack Carr2:32

      Yeah. So that was a interesting one because a week prior, we had, um, tracked somebody into a mosque. And, uh, I was working with, uh, the CIA at the time. I was the only military guy attached to them, which was fantastic, because the, uh, I guess the buro- bureaucracy that's overhead was a lot less, it seemed like over there. At least it was to- to me at my level for what I was doing. But, uh, we tracked somebody that was on our target list into a mosque, and, uh, we went in after them. Um, and I should say it was with the Iraqis we were working with really went in after 'em. At that time, it was a sovereign country, Iraq, um, and yet we still got in quite a bit of trouble for doing that, um, even though our guys didn't even really go inside. Um, and so it was about a week later, I think, that we're tracking somebody else using both technical and human intelligence means, uh, at night in Baghdad, and, uh, and track him once again into a mosque. But now because of the big uproar over us getting in trouble just a week or two prior. So we park outside and our profile at the time wasn't the military-type profile, and this is after the- the, uh, golden mosque, uh, bombing, so it p- potentially turned into Sunni-Shia civil war out there. And the profile of our vehicles, I mean, it could have been mistaken for, uh, for one or the other. Um, but, uh, so we sat there parked and waiting to get approval to go in to this mosque. And, uh, I think it had to go very high up the chain because we were waiting a long time. And as we're waiting, uh, essentially the whole neighborhood came up and got into elevated positions around us, uh, because it was probably a good hour, I want to say. I mean, it's 2006, so let's say 45 minutes to an hour, somewhere in there. Uh, maybe it was more than that. Um, and so all of a sudden they get in their positions and light us up. And so we had a nice little gun battle there, but at the... we'd- we'd, uh, done a little thinking of it on our own and we put some- some snipers up in some even higher positions, the higher we- highest we could get. And looking at the ISR, which is, uh, like it was from- wasn't really, it was from a- it was from an aircraft, let's say. Uh, and you could look down the next day when we got that footage in, or maybe it was even later that morning when we got back, and you could see our snipers up there, see them glowing on this kind of like iridescent ISR feed and see them start just taking people out, up in these positions, which was pretty- pretty cool. But, uh, but yeah, it was a- it was a little dicey, a little Western as they say. And, uh, but we managed to get out with like just two guys wounded. Um, but if we had been able, uh, to go in or the Iraqis we'd been- we were working with were allowed to go in, in their own country, um, then we would have gotten out of there fairly quickly. But as it was, things got a little dicey. But, uh, we came out on top.

   4. CWChris Williamson5:15

      Is

4. 5:16 – 11:01

   Closest Brushes with Mortal Danger

   1. CWChris Williamson5:16

      that the closest model danger that you've been in?

   2. JCJack Carr5:19

      No, there are some other ones. There were some other strange ones. Um, and the- the strangest was, uh, in Najaf in 2004.And we, my sniper team and I showed up in this, uh, to this city that, uh, was essentially a campaign. So 2-7 Cav, which is a huge army unit for those watching and listening, um, uh, is in charge of this operation to retake this city from the Jaysh al-Mahdī militia, which was run by Muqtada al-Sadr, for those who remember that name from, from back in the day. Uh, so essentially they had taken control of the city. United States and our allies won it back. Uh, and so we go in there, and I think it was about two weeks of, um, like psychological operations ahead of time, really telling everybody in that city to leave because we're coming in. So we telegraphed our intent. Not just our intent, we telegraphed exactly what we were gonna do, I think up to the exact date. Like, "You have till this date to leave, uh, because we're coming in, and we're coming in heavy." Um, so we showed up, I think, about a day into it, maybe even f- right at the beginning, but it's fairly close to the beginning. So we were there for about 11 days of what then turned into a two-week campaign to retake the city very kinetically. Um, and, uh, so as, it was day, it was night, it was, it was the only time that I was really reminded of the World War II movies I'd watch growing up with my dad when they're just running through these cities in, in Europe and it's daylight out and there's tanks and it's just, things are blowing up and it's just crazy. Um, and that's because we had Abrams tanks. Uh, not the same tanks in World War II obviously, but reminiscent, uh, of those movies that I saw in the rubble and all that. Bradley Fighting Vehicles. Um, day, night, no breaks whatsoever. You didn't go back to a, to a FOB or a, uh, a little, little base and then go out at night like we typically do in spec- special operations, uh, to take somebody off the board, build up a target package, go hit them in the middle of the night, come back to base. This was full-on 11 days of pitched street fighting, street battles. Um, and at one point in this thing... And we were just there to support. I just went into the, to the... 'Cause I was the, the head of the, the sniper unit at the time, and I just went into the battalion commander of 2-7 Cav and said, "Hey, we're here to support. What can we, what can we do? Here's what we bring to the table with our sniper weapon capabilities and our, uh, uh, close air support, uh, being able to do pre-planned fires 'cause we have these, these, uh, different, um, uh, qualifications that allow us to talk to aircraft and, and do all that stuff." So, so we were value add to it, and it was just, it was an incredible experience. But at one point, I'm jump over, and we'd leave our snipers up, like, up on higher, higher ground. We'd go push forward with them other army units, go take the next set of buildings, push Jaysh al-Mahdī militia back another block. Then our snipers would come down, and we'd go up here. And it was August, so it was hot. And so now you have the army logistics train bringing you food, bringing you water, bringing you ammunition. You kinda get situated again, and then you go forward again. So it was 11 days of that. But at one point, we jump over this wall, and it was me and three other guys, and we jump over this wall and we're in this little courtyard, and they're, both sides are sending mortars, I think. At least the other side, for sure. You'll remember, it's since 2004. But, uh, we're in this little courtyard, and we look at each other like, "Can you believe we're in the middle of this thing?" 'Cause up to that point, we'd just done middle of the night type ops and stacking the deck in our favor, and now we're in this battle with these guys that are essentially, you know, similar weapons to us, uh, during the day. Anyway, at night we have night vision and all that sort of thing. But at the day, you know, they've got AKs and we've got M4s and, you know, uh... Anyway, so we jump in this courtyard and we, we're looking at each other like, "This is crazy." We talk about it for a second, and then we hop over this wall. When the last guy hits, a mortar lands exactly where we were standing, not 30 seconds earlier, like right in the middle. And it was kind of like, "Oh, this is fate." If something had happened, uh, at some point during that day to just delay us by 30 seconds, we would have been standing in that place. So there were a couple times over my time in uniform where I sort of thought about fate, because it, uh, allows you then, as a leader especially, to focus on the mission, focus on the task at hand, do your job, and realize, "Hey, there are these things that you just can't control," like being in that courtyard with that mortar landing right in between you guys if we were 30 seconds later that day. It's crazy.

   3. CWChris Williamson9:24

      What do you do if you've got a very intense, high-velocity kinetic firefight going on for 11 days? Because you can't continue to operate for 11 days, or else you're going to start to make errors, presumably, that are so catastrophic that people start to get killed on your own side, et cetera, et cetera. So during 11 days, what do you do to find some ti- you've got to grab 30 minutes at some point, presumably. What happens?

   4. JCJack Carr9:47

      Yeah. You split up your, your group, and a couple guys maybe will go back. Maybe one will grab 30 minutes of sleep and then come back, uh, in these buildings. You just try to get as deep into the building as you can where it's a little, uh, less hot, uh, 'cause these buildings have really thick walls, uh, if memory serves. And we'd go back in there and find kind of the, uh, place that was, one, safer than closer to the outside walls or windows, um, and then grab 30 minutes of sleep, and then you're back at it. So it was like that. But nobody wanted to sleep. Everybody wanted to be fighting, 'cause this is what we signed up to do. You want to be there doing the job, figuring things out, 'cause the enemy's adapting to you, you're adapting to the enemy. You could see them removing parts of buildings, uh, like small little holes where they were to take their shots and then put that stuff back, uh, in place. And so we started doing that sort of thing too, um, a couple rooms deep though, so you could, uh, uh, have a little more protection from the outside and it's a little harder to see in. If you have a window up here at the, at the front, well, you don't want to be shooting from this room. Maybe you move back into this other room and put a little loophole on the wall there so you can still shoot out. But from somebody looking in, just the shadows make it look like it's unoccupied. So you're doing all these things to adapt to the enemy. The enemy's adapting to you, and that's typically what warfare is, and whoever's gonna do that faster than their opponent, uh, oftentimes ends up on top.

   5. CWChris Williamson11:00

      From a

5. 11:01 – 18:53

   The Emotional Reality of SEAL Missions

   1. CWChris Williamson11:01

      storytelling perspective, it sounds, maybe not romantic, but at least heroic and, and, uh, sanitized and, and, uh, civilized in some regards. Like even, you know, the most brutal, there was a mortar and it landed next to us and we could have been killed and legs blown off and all this sort of stuff. What's the reality of your emotions a- a- and the sense that you have inside when you're going through this? Because, you know, we get to observe, uh-... a version in our own minds if we read your books, or a version on the television screen if we get to watch a movie or a series or something, like The Terminal List. But the actual felt sense of being somebody, even somebody that's been trained, even somebody that's, you know, gone through this and this is what they want to do and this is what they've chosen to do, and this is what they're trained to do. What's that actually like when you're on the ground?

   2. JCJack Carr11:47

      Yeah, it's interesting because you can do all the right things. Like if we were in a room right now, uh, air conditioned, nice, had some water out, and we're- we're going through a, uh, scenario, uh, maybe with a group, maybe not, but just what would you do in this type of a scenario thing. Um, and you could make all the right decisions in this air conditioned space, uh, with all the experience that you have, all the books that you've read. Um, and you could do those things and the instructor could say, "Yep, that looks great. Maybe tweak this here, maybe not." Whatever. Okay, you could do perfect in that scenario. You do that exact same thing on the battlefield, and it could be catastrophic just because the enemy gets a vote and things change so quickly. And there is that Murphy's Law, that luck, that fate, all of those other things involved that aren't involved, that aren't in play back in this air conditioned space when you're learning or teaching or, uh, evolving. So, uh, back in a classroom, I mean. So, uh, so it's- so it's different. So when you're out on the battlefield, all those right, quote unquote "right things" um, are still in play, but now there's some other things in play also that weren't in play when you were in that air conditioned room in training. Um, and for me, the sense of, as a leader, I remember this distinctly because I didn't expect it ahead of time. Um, and it was a sense of relief. And I talk about it in my first book in about a paragraph, maybe two, in that first novel. And I've had a lot of people reach out and tell me that that paragraph in particular meant so much to them because they hadn't really been able to conceptualize or articulate, uh, some of how they felt by doing the job down range. And by reading those paragraphs, it made it okay. And so-

   3. CWChris Williamson13:23

      Can you recall what the sense is that you go through in those paragraphs?

   4. JCJack Carr13:27

      So it's about the relief. It's about not... About knowing that, yeah, you think you can do the job, and you've... That's what your job is in the military, is to prepare for war. Um, it's not necessarily to go to war. It's to go if you're called, but your job every single day for every single second you're in the military is to be prepared for war, and to prepare yourself even better than you were prepared the day before. Make yourself a better operator, better leader today than you were yesterday. Um, so, uh, so but you still don't really know until you get out there and do it, and bullets are whizzing by, and you have to prioritize things because there's so much going on. Um, and so for me, it was a sense of relief. It was like, I've been thinking about this my whole life. Essentially, I've been training for it my whole life, uh, both physically and, uh, and mentally by pushing myself, and then intellectually by studying warfare. Um, so for me, being in that scenario in particular, in Najaf in 2004, it was like, "Okay, this was a, this was a test." And it was a relief that I could do it. Um, so anyway, yeah, that was not one that I was expecting to feel, but it's one that I wove into the novel in that particular, uh, paragraph because it- it made sense. And that's what I talk about by, uh, by being so personal, was, uh, was in that respect, 'cause I wouldn't have really, uh, talked about it with anybody, talked about that in particular with anybody, unless it made sense to flow into this storyline for my protagonist, James Reece. So it's, uh, so in that sense, it's therapeutic as well. But yeah, it was a sense of relief of being tested and- and doing okay, and went on the other side okay for your guys.

   5. CWChris Williamson14:58

      I wrote a story in a newsletter recently that I think is very similar to what you're talking about, but from a civilian perspective. So I'll read it to you now. "I recently got to speak to a friend who I've been curious about for a long time. He went through a difficult period many years ago. Even though he's beyond it now, he came very close to losing everything, financially, reputationally, psychologically. I asked him how he dealt with the darkest time that he'd ever faced. He told me that he'd had a concern in the back of his mind throughout his entire life. He was always worried that deep down, he might be a coward. That secretly, he might not be the strong, capable person he thought he was. That when the rubber met the road, he wouldn't be able to stand up and face whatever the world threw at him. See, many of the challenges that we face in life are largely under our control. We choose the jobs that we apply for, the house we try to afford, the partner we seduce, the weight we lift. These things can still be hard. They can be tough, challenging, sometimes unbearably difficult. But it was us that chose the flavor of that difficulty. So what happens when absolutely everything comes crashing down? The single worst possible scenario that you can imagine. Well, you get to see what you're made of, what you're genuinely made of, when all of your forces are marshaled to a single challenge. And he said that he'd had faith in himself, but he'd never been pushed hard enough to prove that his faith was justified." And this is the quote that still makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. He says, "I could always hear my best self clearing his throat in the room next door. He never knew if his self was able to come in when needed, and it turns out that he did." I love the quote and I love the story because I think many of us are uncertain about just how capable we are. Maybe a couple of times in your life, all hell will break loose, and your best self will have to stop his coughing and come say hello.

   6. JCJack Carr16:34

      Interesting. No, I love it. I love it. The- the only difference is that, like, I- I felt, and I know a lot of the guys feel supremely, uh, I guess confidence is the wrong word, but it's, uh... I mean, you feel like you- you know you can do it, but you haven't done it yet, type of a thing. And even the other operations that I'd done up until that point, uh, we'd stack the odds in our favor. So it's like you're going in, you're with the A-team, you're going into the Super Bowl with all this experience now, uh, of doing that particular type of an operation. Uh, you put yourself in the enemy's shoes, figured out how they're gonna adapt to you after having seen you do this mission in X configuration, Y configuration, whatever it might be. How they would have adapted, and you adapt accordingly. Um, so to be thrown into that old, like, World War II scenario, where there was- it was just insanity for 11 days. Um, so that- that was- that was, I mean, I- it sounds weird to say cool, um, but it was. It was, um... That's what we had tr- We trained up to do that, to be tested, and that was a... I mean, it was a test because that's not exactly what we've been trained up to do, 'cause we've been trained up-

   7. CWChris Williamson17:34

      Mm.

   8. JCJack Carr17:34

      ... mostly those kind of operations where you're stacking the deck in your favor. Um, and now we're out there with the enemy, in the broad daylight, street to street, um, and all that. So it's, uh, so you still feel like you- you- you- you- you know you can pull it off, but...

   9. CWChris Williamson17:48

      Yup.

   10. JCJack Carr17:48

       If you haven't been in it, there's still that little... It's not like you doubt it. Like, you're not doubting yourself at- at all.... but if you haven't done it, it's not doubt, it's just like a, "Okay, fine. Now I gotta run that-"

   11. CWChris Williamson17:58

       You need to close that loop, yeah, I think, you know.

   12. JCJack Carr17:59

       Yeah. Like, I'm running this race, I'm running it all the time on my own on the track or something like that. And you're, somebody's there with a stopwatch, bam, you know you're hitting it, you know you're hitting it, you know you're hitting it. And then, but you haven't run it in the Olympics yet against these other people at the same, same track, same track, same distance, uh, weather conditions even, um, but you haven't run it then under those str- Like same thing boxing or on the mat, like some great guys, like, just can't do it in the ring, in the octagon. Same thing boxing. It's a different deal in that ring when the crowd is yelling at you. Um, there's just something different about it. So, uh, you might be great just sparring and doing all your normal things at your local boxing gym or club or whatever, or whoever it is, but then you get in that ring and it's different when there's people there. Like that sort of a thing. Like, you know you can do it, but... 'cause you've done it, but you haven't done it in this scenario yet type of a thing. So anyway, it was a, it was a relief to, I guess, uh, have been tested, and for lack of a better phrase, to not be found wanting, I guess.

   13. CWChris Williamson18:51

       Done right.

6. 18:53 – 26:40

   What People Misunderstand About Snipers

   1. CWChris Williamson18:53

      What about the fact that you not only were a sniper, but then were leading a sniper team? I think it's probably right in saying that the sniper position is the most romanticized, kind of highly mysterious, you're like the wizard of the, of the battlefield in a, in a way. What is it that people don't understand or what, what do people get wrong when they think about the lifestyle, the role of a sniper and what are some of the more sort of brutal realities of what you actually end up facing and, and doing during a- an operation?

   2. JCJack Carr19:26

      Yeah, that's good. That's a great question, one I haven't been asked before, and I don't know if I've really thought about it in those terms, um, but I'll think about it right now. Um, a lot of it, it was based on leading up to September 11th, uh, like movies that we'd seen about Vietnam or about snipers from Vietnam. Essentially alone, maybe with a spotter, crawling through the jungle to get to this position to wait for an NVA element to walk through and then find the officer.

   3. CWChris Williamson19:53

      NVA?

   4. JCJack Carr19:54

      Uh, North Vietnamese Army. Uh, and I come down the Ho Chi Minh Trail and then find that officer and find that radio man, like that sort of a thing. Um, uh, or is it an advanced element? Is it a trap? They just... that sort of a thing. Uh, so I think the, the people thinking about how alone you are is probably the part that's misunderstood the most, especially today. And this is my experience. Like there are probably other snipers that have completely other experience, you know, different experience than I do. Um, but when we went out, it was as a team. It wasn't just the one guy, the two guys going in position. You brought a heavy weapon gunner with you, so somebody with a machine gun, uh, or two, even better, in case you're compromised. And what? A medic. Yup. And a communicator. So you went out as a team so that you could at least fend, uh, uh, defend yourself for a little bit if you're compromised while you call in QRF, so a quick reaction force, um, that's ready to come, come get you. Uh, so I think that's probably the most misunderstood part is people think of a sniper as alone, and you do have training alone a lot, uh, in the school. Uh, you have a sniper buddy with you who you switch off being a spotter for, meaning you're looking through the glass and calling the shots and then you switch off and, and, but that's really based on the old Vietnam experience. Uh, and we really, we really just, that was the only experience that we had up until September 11th. And then we moved in Afghanistan, moved into Iraq a little bit later, and we really started to evolve these tactics, techniques and procedures when it comes to sniping. Uh, a lot of time you're in support of a ground element that's moving in or somebody that's coming in ground and air and you're just there in a supporting position, um, to, for, to contain what we call squirters that are leaving the target. So there's a lot of different things that you can do as a, as a sniper so I think that's probably the most misunderstood is that you just go off alone with your rifle, and that's, that's not exactly how, how... Uh, that wasn't exactly my experience anyway. You're in a window by yourself maybe, but you have a spotter here or at another, at another window, somebody is on another level, somebody is out the back door, you got your heavy weapon gunner there, you got support. Um, so, so you're, you're alone in a sense, but no more alone than you are as an 18-year-old Marine who's told to hold a corner with your, uh, you know, M4 and just you're that person with that rifle making... You're the last decision maker in that chain that starts with the President of the United States and comes all the way down, you're that last decision maker with your finger on the trigger right there on that street corner. So in, uh, so in that respect, you're just as alone as that 18-year-old kid, you're just the, you're, you're just maybe have a little more training.

   5. CWChris Williamson22:25

      Does it feel like a lot of pressure to have an entire, uh, group of people who are all there to support one person's performance, so to speak? Everybody is contributing to it and the heavy gunner is there in case you get spotted, but the reason that you're risking being spotted is presumably because you have some special leverage, you are a very unique tool that is in a very unique position that can give a type of, um, uh, assistance that is very difficult to get outside of that. Does that apply more and more pressure, especially when you're on the battlefield, there's mortal danger, et cetera?

   6. JCJack Carr23:00

      I mean, just, uh, in the sense that you're worried about letting your guys down, that you're worried about letting them down by making a, making a mistake maybe, but you're really so focused on that mission that that's not an overriding concern. That, once again, this is just all, all personal. Um, so it wasn't overriding as, in, in that respect. Um, and oftentimes you'll switch through 'cause so many guys are trained up as snipers so you'll switch through these positions, uh, 'cause you can't be there on the glass all day or whatever it is, or even all night with, uh, whatever night vision type of a system that you're using.

   7. CWChris Williamson23:29

      What's the, what was the longest time that you think that you sat up watching?

   8. JCJack Carr23:34

      Probably one of the, one of the nights when nothing happens, um, so probably a few hours. I can't remember right now, but I think we'd switch off every couple hours, especially with a team like that, let's say four or five, six guys. I think we wouldn't be on for more than an hour or two, um, at the most.

   9. CWChris Williamson23:50

      How much, how much truth is there in the sniper position being held, rolling over, taking a dump into a Tupperware that the guy next to you has to clean up and all of that stuff. Like how much truth is in that 'cause it seems like you're talking about a period of time that's, well, easy enough to hold a dump in for?

   10. JCJack Carr24:04

       Yeah, yeah. We- we wouldn't go out for too long. I mean, you'd- you'd oftentimes make plans to stay out longer and ... Just like you're walking through your own neighborhood. I mean, you can tell when something's off. There's a, "Hey, something's different today. I don't know what it is." And you could sense when people would feel that, uh, in the daytime typically. Uh, and people would be taking their kids wherever they're taking them, and there's normal traffic. And then all of a sudden, something shifts. And why does it shift? Because they notice that something was different. Uh, not sure what it is. I mean, you, you can go back and think and be like, "I have no idea." Like, it's sometimes it's just a sense. And then they take a second look at that house. They're like, "Oh, uh, so-and-so didn't come out today. Usually, at this time of day, they're hanging up laundry." Whatever it is, something that you can't even figure out ahead of time, you wouldn't know ahead of time, but something that changed just enough, especially when you're in a place like Ramadi or Mosul or someplace like that.

   11. CWChris Williamson24:58

       So do you, do you, um, do you become-

   12. JCJack Carr25:00

       But-

   13. CWChris Williamson25:00

       If, if you've been spotting for a good amount of time, if you've been watching a particular neighborhood or a number of streets and a number of individuals that come and go, do you become intimately familiar with them? Do you name them? Do you imagine what their lives are like at all? Do you sort of-

   14. JCJack Carr25:11

       No.

   15. CWChris Williamson25:11

       ... personify them?

   16. JCJack Carr25:12

       Someone else might have a different experience, but, uh, but I did not have that, that experience, uh, 'cause I don't think I saw the same people often. I mean, it was like a city, uh, with all the things going on, so there's a lot, lot going on. Uh, it's not like ... For me anyway. Uh, I'm sure other people have a different experience of being, looking at a remote village for a long time and really getting to know people. I can see that. But my experience was really in the cities, um, which also meant that it was pretty dynamic and people would notice that, uh, that something was off on this house or this building. And, uh, especially after two days-ish or something like that, then you're coming, you're coming out, um, and, uh, before, before they get the upper hand. Um, so it's, uh ... Yeah, but it was, but it was great. But it's all ... It's a thinking man's game, and that's what I ... In my last ... In, In The Blood, that's what I ... 'Cause I wanted to write a sniper-centric novel last time without that, uh, scene of two snipers on opposite hillsides or buildings that are looking for each other, and then they're looking, and then they find each other at the last second, and then one guy shoots and it goes through the other guy's scope just before he can shoot, or, you know, that, that scene that we've seen in a bunch of movies and, and books up to this point. So I thought, "How do you do a sniper-centric novel without that scene?" And that was the thinking man's part of it. Like, how do you out-think this other sniper? Um, and, uh, so that was the, that was the fun part for me of writing that book, but it's similar to what you're, what we're talking about right here, is, uh, is out-thinking the enemy. Um, and, uh, in fact, you're doing that on the battlefield, and that's what I'm doing on the, on the page or in the pages of these books.

7. 26:40 – 36:26

   Receiving Hate for The Terminal List

   1. JCJack Carr26:40

   2. CWChris Williamson26:40

      You're a guy who's been through selection, who's been in kinetic warfare, nearly been hit by mortars, been in cars that have been attacked by machine guns. How does that compare to being in the middle of a cancellation furor when The Terminal List hits Amazon Prime?

   3. JCJack Carr26:55

      (laughs) Can't ... Like people that weren't too excited about it, like, uh, The Daily Beast? Uh, I guess it was to be expected. You know, it's, uh ... You, you can't expect everyone's gonna love it, uh, especially certain segments that might already have it out for maybe your lead star or, uh, the subject matter in, in particular, or have read one of the books and already hate you, or have looked at your Instagram and, uh, and already hate you. So, you know, that's just how it goes these days, and that's okay. Um, you know, that's, uh ... There is a, a large segment of the population who it does resonate with, thank goodness, and, uh, and Amazon has all those numbers, though they'll never share them, and that's why we have a spin-off and a s-

   4. CWChris Williamson27:29

      (laughs) Yeah, many sequels.

   5. JCJack Carr27:32

      Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson27:32

      Yeah. "The Terminal List is an attempt to valorize the same toxic tenor of military culture, a culture that's long protected rather than prosecuted those who engage in immoral and illegal behavior. This valorization of vigilantism is a rising tide in pop culture." To me, vigilantism doesn't seem like a rising tide. I think back to movies like The Punisher, that I think's been me- remade at least two or three times. Now I think about John Wick, perhaps, which is kind of like ... I mean, that's pure vigilantism. Like, don't fuck with this dog. But, um, I, I don't think that that is the case, and I think that we have seen a resurgence of relatively uncomplicated, not simple, but uncomplicated storylines where the good guys are the good guys and the bad guys are the bad guys. Top Gun: Maverick last year, I think one of the highest grossing movies, if not the highest grossing movie of the year. Unbelievable to watch. Even other things like Bullet Train, which was complex, but also it wasn't subversive in a ... trying to get across some strange kind of political-

   7. JCJack Carr28:31

      Right.

   8. CWChris Williamson28:32

      ... commentary. Um, so yeah, man, I- me and my housemate absolutely loved it. He stayed up. Uh, he, he completely fucked me. We watched the first couple of episodes, and then he stayed up all night and completed the season, woke up the next day and was like, "Dude, you've got to s- You need to stay up and watch it." And I thought, "Well, w- we were ... This was an us thing, and now I feel betrayed-"

   9. JCJack Carr28:50

      (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson28:51

       "... because you've stayed up all night and watched it." Um, but yeah. You know, I, I think you're right. For as long as the market has desire for this stuff ... I'm sure people have got problems with Succession. I'm sure that there's some tropes in Succession and the reinforcement of white, cis-heteronormative patriarchal capitalism or something, but the season and the series is absolutely fucking fantastic. And, eh, for as long as it's good, people are going to watch it, and you're not going to be able to shame people out of watching something entertaining, and you're also not going to be able to guilt people into watching something that's shit.

   11. JCJack Carr29:26

       That, that's it. And I mean, Death Wish in the '70s with Charles Bronson. I mean, these things have been around for, for quite some time. And, uh, you know, it's really about ... For us, it was all about telling a story, uh, like it is for me in the novels. I don't look at Amazon reviews and say, "Oh, look at this person didn't like this in the last book. I'm gonna have to change this," or w- "I wonder if I'm gonna alienate an audience." And never. It is 100% only about the story. You have to honor that story. I never think about an audience. I never think about a critic. I never think about a comment. It's all about the story. That's what I have to do, because people are trusting me with this time they're never getting back. Uh, so that's something I take extremely seriously. So every part of me, my heart and soul, has to go into every single word, but it has to be about, about the story. And every single meeting we had with Chris and Antoine, Fuqua and the whole executive production team, uh-Chris always would remind us that we're making this, we're not making this for critics, we're making it for this person who went to Iraq and Afghanistan over the last 20 years. So when they sit on that couch and crack a beer and turn this thing on, they at least know that we put in the effort to make something for them, that was rooted in the realities of modern warfare, that explored the mindset of a modern-day warrior with this skill set, who now has nothing left to lose. So we're making it for you. We're not making it for The Daily Beast, that's for sure. Um, and it's, uh, and some of those critics, like some of the ones that, uh, that you read and, and, uh, the way you just described looking at Succession or something like that, it's, gosh, that's a, what a horrible way to go through life, it seems. I mean, there's plenty of other things you could read if this isn't yours, if this isn't the thing that's speaking to you. Uh, we live in a time where there's so much, um, but let's just say it was just books and movies. Uh, there are plenty other ones out there. Why would you waste time just trying to, uh, ruin someone else's day or to apply a filter on a show that a lot of people are enjoying, but you want to just-

   12. CWChris Williamson31:09

       Numbers speak for themselves, I think.

   13. JCJack Carr31:10

       ... talk about how nasty it is, and it just says something about you, I think, rather than, "Oh, it's subjective." Guess what? It's art. Art is subjective. Uh, move along. You'll live a much happier life. But that's just how it goes these days.

   14. CWChris Williamson31:23

       What would have been an easier way for you to compromise the screen adaptation? Um, for instance, what were some of the decisions that, uh, that keeping it in were always going to cause problems? Uh, and there is, I'm sure there wasn't a discussion because you wanted to stay true, and it seems like Chris was also on board with, with this also being super, super aligned, um, but what, what were some of the things that you think this would have gotten rid of most of the criticism, but also compromised the show?

   15. JCJack Carr31:56

       Oh, if we got rid of most of the criticism, it would be awful. Uh-

   16. CWChris Williamson31:59

       (laughs)

   17. JCJack Carr32:00

       So we didn't really, so we never really thought about that. I'm can't really, you know, I can't, I can't think of any-

   18. CWChris Williamson32:05

       The disemboweling? Maybe the disemboweling with a tomahawk ax, perhaps?

   19. JCJack Carr32:08

       Yeah, I don't think they were that upset with that, uh, but Amazon was nervous about it, that's for sure. Um, and it was one of those ones where we had the scripts go up to the top of Amazon and they come back down with notes. And this is a very collaborative process, whereas the novel's just me, 100% creative control, no guidance-

   20. CWChris Williamson32:24

       Mm.

   21. JCJack Carr32:25

       ... from a publisher or my agent. They never even hint at what I-

   22. CWChris Williamson32:27

       Unencumbered, yeah.

   23. JCJack Carr32:28

       It's 100% me, which is great, because if it doesn't work, I have only one person to blame. That is 100% my... Yeah, exactly. Now, the other side of the house here was screenwriting, this is a very collaborative, team-oriented process. Um, so just like in anything where, uh, politics are involved, and by politics I mean interpersonal relationship-type politics when you're, when, uh, when you're trying to create something, uh, special. But everybody wants, wants that to be the end goal, but other, everybody's bringing their past experience to it, everybody's bringing something different, which can be wonderful, but I can also see when you hear these stories about writers' rooms devolving into chaos or things just s- going off the rails on set or whatever it might be. I can see how that can happen. We got very, very lucky here. But very collaborative. So once you get the outline for the scripts done and then you get the scripts done, then they go up to the top of Amazon and then they come back down with notes. And one of those notes was about the, uh, disemboweling scene. And there were some, I guess the best way to put it, some concerns, uh, that, uh, that might be a little, little much and we'd lose the audience. Um, so that was one we, we fought for. And to Amazon's credit, they went with us. They went with us on I think everything that we wanted. Um, every time something came up that was a little contentious, they sided with us and kind of went, "All right, you know, the voters more than trust you," and-

   24. CWChris Williamson33:48

       In for a penny, in for a pound, we'd say in Britain.

   25. JCJack Carr33:51

       Yeah, but luckily we had Chris and we had Antoine and we had the showrunner, and so all of us as a, as a team would very thoughtfully, um, discuss how we were going to deal with this. And, uh, so we filmed it. Uh, I think Amazon thought that we were just gonna let them film it and, uh, we're not, we're never gonna let them put it in. Uh, and then it ends up being the shot that's on every billboard in LA when it launches, is Chris Pratt holding that tomahawk, right like that, shot from the side, and yeah. So if we didn't have that in there, we probably would have lost a lot of the core audience that were fans of the book, because enough has to change anyway where, uh, people that are gonna get upset about changes, they're gonna get upset anyway, but if you lose a couple of these scenes, you're gonna really lose the people that are even understanding of the fact that there are gonna be changes. So, uh, so a few of those things like that had to, really had to be in there, um, and were, were important to keep in there. So, so that, that was one of them. Uh, there was an ending, I think we talk about it on the podcast, we did a Terminal List Podcast, um, so I think we talk about it on there, but there was another ending that, uh, that Amazon was fond of, and it just wasn't gonna work. Um, we were gonna, we were gonna lose everybody we'd, uh, taken along this ride.

   26. CWChris Williamson35:05

       Insufficiently satisfying.

   27. JCJack Carr35:07

       Yep. Yep. And, uh, so once again, they, they went along with it. We did film two endings. One-

   28. CWChris Williamson35:14

       Wow. Will that ever be released in a DVD thing?

   29. JCJack Carr35:17

       I don't think so. I don't think so.

   30. CWChris Williamson35:18

       Okay.
8. 36:26 – 41:28

   What Jack’s Writing Routine Looks Like

   1. CWChris Williamson36:26

      is a daily routine, a morning routine, a daily routine like for you when you are deep in the writing process?

   2. JCJack Carr36:35

      Well, the, I just get more tired because I'm staying up later and later, but I still have to get up to get the kids to school and get everybody fed, and it's just like any other parent out there that's, like, trying to get their kids to school and saying, "Where's your backpack? Did you, where's your viol, is it a violin day?" Like, all those things. "Get in the car, we're late." Um, so all those things are at play as well. So once that chaos has subsided, then dive into the work. And for me, it's all about uninterrupted time. Uninterrupted time. Um, and, uh, it has to, I don't need a great view, I just need quiet. Quiet, uninterrupted time. So each of the novels I've written in a different place. The first one was off our, in a little office off our bedroom rental in Coronado, California, during my last year in the SEAL teams, between about 10:00 at night and 3:00 in the morning, 'cause that's the only time that it was semi-quiet in our household with three kids, dog, wife, and all the, all the rest. Um, and this one before this, well, two before this, I went to a l- local library and was using one of those little study rooms that they have there, but you can only stay in them for, like, two hours if someone else is waiting. So as soon as high school got out, I'd get bumped out for kids working on history projects and that sort of thing. But that worked for a little bit, and then I rented Airbnbs, um, for the last one, for In the Blood, and that was fantastic. Found a little cabin not too far away. And I thought I was gonna do it for this last book, for Only the Dead, and then I got up there, and it's about a mile from our house. I can actually see the house from this little cabin. And I just didn't feel right, didn't feel right. And I, like, I was realizing our kids are, uh, 17, 15, and 12, and I realized that I was gonna miss the interruptions when they were gone, so I decided to embrace the interruptions, which probably pushed my, uh, uh, my, this writing process about two months, maybe, two and a half months to the right. Um, but I realized that, hey, this is just how it's gonna be, and I'm gonna miss these interruptions when they're gone, so it's just what life is like right now, and that's okay. So I wrote it at the house and just tried to write it when the kids were at school. And then I pulled some, some really late nights, uh, and pulled a couple all-nighters, which are getting harder to do the older I get, uh, for Savage Son a few books back. No, no problem. No problem pulling all-nighters. This one, oh, yeah. Big-

   3. CWChris Williamson38:36

      You're feeling it.

   4. JCJack Carr38:36

      ... brutal. Yeah, feeling it now. But, uh, eventually, I will get, uh, a much more disciplined appo- approach, but right now, from the beginning, it's felt like an entrepreneurial type of a venture, meaning I have to, I'm the CEO, I'm the CFO, I'm the CMO, I'm the creative, I'm the social media manager. I'm all of those things, um, but, and I have to also say yes to, to everything, 'cause people have to know that whatever this widget is, if you're an entrepreneur, you have this, you've created this thing, people have to know that it exists. So what do you have to do? What are the supporting efforts to this product that are gonna allow you to get this out in the world and allow you to continue to do what you do? In my case, that's writing. That's what I love. That's my passion. My mission is taking care of my family. Writing is the passion. They come together and form my purpose going forward. Um, but I didn't reali- I thought you could kind of just go to a cabin in the mountains, write, send it to New York, maybe do an interview, and then start your next book. That was totally not it, especially today. You could have gotten away with that in 1985 if you were, uh, one of the last names that we all know, like King, uh, something, or DeMille, or Morrell, or one of these last names, Clancy from back in the day. But today, it's different. Uh, there are so many more platforms that you can take advantage of, and there sure are, uh, outliers, of, of course. But if you're just gonna do the work and get in there and get dirty and figure this thing out, well, now you can take advantage of YouTube and Instagram and Facebook and Twitter and a webpage and a podcast and do all these other things that support your main effort of the book. And still, that product, that book, has to be the best that it can possibly be, but then everything else also has to be on that same level. So that podcast has to be the best that it can possibly be. Any blog entry, any post on Instagram, um, because all those things, people are trusting you with that time that we talked about earlier, not just with the book, whether it's an audiobook or they're actually reading it. Um, but just scrolling through and stopping on your m- Instagram post and reading a little history or whatever it might be on there. You have to add value to people's lives throughout the year, and then there's this connection piece that wasn't available in 1975, '85, '95, even really 2005. Uh, really after that is when things started to change and where it became important to know the person behind the product, in this case, a book. That wasn't really as important 30 years prior because you couldn't. You didn't really know what was behind that book or that movie or whatever else. Well, now, now people want to know. And, uh, that authenticity piece is so important today to everyone. Um, overused term, but it's really, there's not a better one. Um, and so for me, that authenticity piece, it's, it's, uh, it's part of the novel, but it's also this. It's us talking. And you, uh, it'd be tough to not be you today. I know people try, but their lives must be miserable. Uh, because if you're not you and you're active on social channels, eventually it'll come out.

   5. CWChris Williamson41:13

      Correct.

   6. JCJack Carr41:14

      Um, and, uh, and, and it's gotta be awful to try to do that. But, but if you don't and you're just open and honest, people respect that, and you have a product that is top tier, and everything else you're doing is also top tier that supports that product... Anyway, that's how I looked at it.

9. 41:28 – 51:54

   How to Avoid Distraction & Stay Disciplined

   1. JCJack Carr41:28

   2. CWChris Williamson41:28

      How do you avoid the main thing not being the main thing anymore? There's lots of these other ways that you get pulled. You've got to do the podcast and the interviews and, oh, there's a screenplay, and I've got this meeting, and there'll be a Zoom call, and we've gotta make sure, and there's emails and all the rest of it. And yet the highest point of leverage that you need to get done is to put words down onto paper. How do you avoid distraction from the main thing, and what is your process for staying motivated and disciplined when it comes to writing?

   3. JCJack Carr41:56

      So that's rea- that's really what I'm working on right now is, and I ha- have been working on it since the beginning, but really more so over the last year. It's become unsustainable to keep the pace up that I've kept, that I've been on since the beginning. Um, and there are more projects out there with this, uh, origin story, with the next book coming out with Chris Pratt, so those two separate series. Uh, writing for those, I'll write the finale episodes on both those. This time around, we're pencils down on it because of the writer's strike right now. But there's, and there's some other projects out there in the works as well. Have a nonfiction book coming out on Beirut, the 1983 Beirut barracks bombing. Uh, if there's a pod, just all those things. Um, and so there really is, uh, I mean, you are being pulled in dif- a lot of different directions. So I'm gonna have to get, at this stage, turn from the, uh, like, uh, you started the computer company in my garage in 1976, '77, uh, into, like, a more, into the, uh, in a little, an office space outside the garage type of a thing. And that-

   4. CWChris Williamson42:53

      What does your, what does your team look like at the moment?

   5. JCJack Carr42:55

      It was me only from the beginning, um, but now over the last s-... Few months, now I have not just one literary agent, but I think there's six different agents now. Uh, each one has a different specialty, um, which is fantastic. Uh, now there's an entertainment attorney that overlooks all of that, kind of the umbrella, uh, over all of those different, uh, different agents. There's that. Uh, there's a manager to make sure, business manager, but not the kind that, like, goes out and looks for things, but makes sure that you're keeping out of trouble with the IRS. Um, so that's, phew, I could never, uh, my brain does not work that way. So that is totally outsourced, 'cause now you have merch in 50 different states, 40 different countries. Each one of those states changes their tax laws by the year, um, so, yeah. So that's, uh, so there's that. My publisher, uh, Emily Bestler, amazing, has been incredible from the very beginning, uh, at Simon & Schuster. My publicist, David Brown, uh, he's been with me from the beginning as well. Um, my agent, Alexandra Machinist, uh, literary side of the house. She's like the umbrella agent over all the other ones, kind of. Um, so the team's do- I know an assistant now who schedules everything, because I was just spending, uh, I mean, untold hours just trying to keep these different interviews straight, and different appointments straight, and all that stuff. And that was taking away time that wasn't going into the book. So, uh, so this is the year to kind of figure all that out. But I think now, that's got, that's the team. That's the team. And really, they're gen- they're ironclad, who does the podcast production and does my book trailer videos, and deals with, uh, any business side of the house with merch or whatever else. Like, it's outsourcing all those things, trusting that, uh, maybe some of it might not be done exactly the way you want it, and that's, that's the price that you pay, uh, for being able to dive all into the book as something, uh, something else, something smaller not being exactly the way you would like it. But it's okay. You're probably the only one that's gonna notice. Uh, so, but for me, it's like, the Instagram thing is still me, Twitter is still me, all those, because it's such an important connection, um, that I have with this readership. Because, uh, you know, leading up to the third novel, I was kind of hoping that Chris Pratt would tweet or put something on Instagram about the show. I was kind of hoping that Joe Rogan would invite me on. I would, uh, hoping that, just 'cause I've known him for a while. I was hoping that Tucker would invite me on. Um, but it didn't happen. Now I'm so thankful that none of those guys asked me on until that third book hit the New York Times list, and then the first two bumped on after that. Because now, even in my mind, one, one, yeah, you don't have to worry about people saying, "Oh, must be nice. Only reason you did this is 'cause you got on Rogan," or whatever else. Like, that's off. And, and also for me, thinking, "Well, wow, jeez, could I have done this without going on Rogan? Could I have done this without going on

   6. CWChris Williamson45:32

      Hmm.

   7. JCJack Carr45:33

      ... Tucker?" That's not even a part of my, that's not even a part of my calculus, not taking up any bandwidth-

   8. CWChris Williamson45:37

      Yeah.

   9. JCJack Carr45:37

      ... in my head, because it was all grassroots. And it was all people taking a risk on me as a new author and telling a friend at work, or telling a, uh, a buddy on social media, or telling a family member, who in turn told another family member. So that made it so grassroots and so powerful from a fanda- foundational standpoint. Um, so now I'm thankful that Chris didn't say anything until after that, that Rogan didn't ask me on until after that, and that Tucker didn't have me on until after that. Because those were the three that, in the lead-up, I was kind of like, "Oh, man, be really nice if one of those three h- two of them, if all three happened." Uh, but none of them did until after the New York Times list.

   10. CWChris Williamson46:11

       And you still made it work. Yeah, there's, um, (clears throat) I remember hearing about Eddie Hearn, who is a boxing promoter, uh, from the UK, and he manages a ton of huge, huge fights. And his father was very successful in boxing promotion too, and they were talking about the challenges that Eddie had been through as a byproduct of his father's success. And he'd grown up with wealth and, and stuff, which, you know, uh, is both positive and negative. And one of the things that Eddie said was he almost resented his father's success in a way, because he would never be able to prove whether or not he could have done it without him.

   11. JCJack Carr46:48

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson46:48

       And that's a big mirror, I think, to the scenario that you're encountering. Another thing that I've been thinking about a lot over the last two weeks, uh, Bill Perkins, guy who wrote Die With Zero, it's a very short book about, um, how to use money to enjoy life as opposed to saving indefinitely. It's fantastic. I highly, highly recommend it.

   13. JCJack Carr47:08

       Thank you.

   14. CWChris Williamson47:08

       It's three hours long. Die With, Die With Zero. Uh, he's also been on the show, so I'll send you a link to-

   15. JCJack Carr47:12

       Awesome.

   16. CWChris Williamson47:12

       ... to listen to that episode once it's up. Um, he, I spent a good bit of time with him. He has a holiday home here in Austin, and, uh, I've been wake surfing with him four times since he's been on the show, in the last 10 days. So I've got really good at wake surfing, but I've also got to spend a good bit of time with him. And one of the things that I realized is, there's lots of content on the internet about how to become rich, and almost no content on the internet about how to be rich. There's lots of content on the internet about how to become successful, and almost no content about how to be successful.

   17. JCJack Carr47:42

       It is.

   18. CWChris Williamson47:42

       Most people are on the come up toward getting toward the size of a Jack- or, uh, one millionth of the size of a Jack Carr, right? Once you're there, all of the lessons, do I need an assistant? Do I need two? Do I need a personal? Do I need an executive? What about a manager? Do I need a chief of staff? Should I get a, an operations manager first, or do I need a chief of operations? What, what about the chief of staff? How do they work with the agent? And, you know, it's a problem that the cohort who has this sh- this issue is so small-

   19. JCJack Carr48:12

       Mm-hmm.

   20. CWChris Williamson48:13

       ... that it's not surprising, because the incentives for writing this sort of stuff and creating this content online is to appeal to a wider audience. How many people have the problem of trying to juggle multiple fiction and non-fiction bestsellers with an Amazon Prime deal, right? It's a, uh, it's a pretty small cohort. But that doesn't make it any smaller of a problem. And you don't have anybody there to try and teach you. So spending a good bit of time with Bill, somebody who is, uh, incredibly wealthy, very successful, and, and uses it, as far as I can see, (inhales) uh, in a very smart way, uh, and looking at his systems, how dialed in all of the things that he has in his life. He's got an EA, his EA's got a PA, he's got a person that does his diet and nutrition. His chef speaks to the nutritionist and then cooks his meals based on what that is. The assistant makes sure that his schedule is done, and the driver makes sure he's there on time, and the blah, blah, blah. Like, everything is dialed in, and he calls them neuron cycles, and he protects his neuron cycles as much as possible. Says for him, it's making money. For you, it would be writing great words.I make money with my mind. The more neuron cycles that I take up thinking, "I haven't put petrol in the car," or, "Have we got milk for the- for coffee in the morning?" All of those things are taking away from my highest point of leverage. And yet, like, having that conversation online opens you up to so much cynicism around people saying, you know, "What a luxurious, bourgeois, wanky-"

   21. JCJack Carr49:34

       It's what you have.

   22. CWChris Williamson49:34

       "... must be nice." Yeah, exactly. But the bottom-

   23. JCJack Carr49:38

       Yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson49:38

       The bottom line is that there are people out there who have these systems in place, and I've started to hang about with them. And to see that is just really inspiring to see how high the ladder can go, just how good the efficiency can get, how much can be outsourced, how much can be delegated. And it- it's cool to see that you're beginning to, uh, turn pro, in Steven Pressfield language, I suppose, to get to that level.

   25. JCJack Carr50:00

       Exactly. And it's, uh, it- I- I've just started down that path to figure out how to become more effective and efficient, which means you have to let go, and you have to trust all those people also, uh, to make sure, "Hey, they got the right date on the calendar and the right time." Something as easy as that, and to know that you don't have to double check or go back in your emails just to confirm because you're like, "Wait, that didn't sound quite right." That has to be all the way off. You never have to have that thought, and that thought has to go into whatever that profession is. Uh, for me, writing. Um, so, so I need, there are definitely some tweaks that need to happen, but I'm starting down that path. And then, uh, then eventually I'll have to add sleep, nutrition, um, exercise back on my list, because those fell to the bottom of my priority list, uh, 'cause you're doing all those other, other things, and this is the time to- to do it. This is what I love. Uh, I've always wanted to write since I was a little kid. So I know that- that right now is- is my time to do that. But also, it's time to introduce some more of those efficiencies so that I can ha- take that breath, because right now, it's just family and work. That's it.

   26. CWChris Williamson50:58

       Yeah.

   27. JCJack Carr50:58

       Um, and, uh, so I kind of need to introduce some more of that, uh, uh, some of those efficiencies in there so that I can, um, operate at optimal performance, I guess, get the good- the right fuel in there.

   28. CWChris Williamson51:10

       I've seen it. I've seen- I've seen people now firsthand operating at unbelievably high levels very effectively and efficiently and enjoying life because of how much they've been able to outsource it. Now, you know, the bottom line is that much of this is a function of money, that if you have the capital to be able to spend, then you can afford the- the bits that this gets put together. But also, it's a function of being able to relinquish control, being able to delegate, being prepared to do that, being able to put faith in other people to allow them to learn through failure, uh, to- to pay the price, the existential, like, "Oh, I missed that fucking meeting." Oh, the- it's because they put the meeting on for the wrong day, or they didn't- didn't check their email or whatever. Like, those are just prices that you're going to have to pay.

10. 51:54 – 58:25

    How Jack Undertakes Research for a Novel

    1. CWChris Williamson51:54

       So, one of the other things that I imagine is a- a big chunk of your time must be research for the storylines, uh, for inspiration for the book. And presumably, not everything can be inspired by personal experience. So what does the research process look like for this?

    2. JCJack Carr52:11

       Well, a lot of them, it shifted with Covid, because I couldn't go anywhere. Um, my initial thought out of the gate was that I would at least go to one co- or have one trip, maybe multiple countries, but one trip focused on research for a novel. Um, so I had, for the first book, I'd been to Iraq, been to Afghanistan. I chose places in the United States that I'd already been, so I wouldn't have to travel to them to do that- that research. So, that was the first one. Second one, now I'm out of the military, uh, start that second one about a month after I'm out of the military, and I fly to Mozambique, because I know that this is going to be a very important part of the storyline. Well, see, I don't have any money to be flying to Mozambique or doing any of these things, but, uh, I thought of that John Grisham story about he wrote A Time to Kill first, and he couldn't give that book away. And then he writes The Firm, and we've had a John Grisham novel every year, in some years, two John Grisham novels, every year since. But I always thought of like, well, what if he'd stopped? What if he'd stopped and not written The Firm? Then he'd probably just now be retiring from some law practice that he'd hated, and he'd always would have waste- wasted some sort of bandwidth thinking about what could have been, or maybe I should have written another book. Uh, but he did. And- and he, uh, from all, uh, indications, he loves writing and loves the life that he has- he has built. So, I always thought about that, so hence my reason for being on a plane to Mozambique without any means to do so. Um, and so that was fantastic. Putting boots on the ground, I learned so much over there, talking to the professional hunters and the trackers and talking to them about the politics in their country and Chinese influence, both legal and illegal mining operations. There's all these poaching, uh, all these things that I incorporated into the storyline, uh, so much so that I went back, uh, before that was published, to South Africa to do research for my third novel and a little bit for the one that I was just finishing up. Uh, I also went to Kamchatka Peninsula, Russia for that third novel, for Savage Son, because once again, that was going to be a very important part of the storyline, that I didn't want to just get information by zooming in on Google Earth and looking up something on Wikipedia. I wanted to go there and really do- know the sights and the sounds and the smells.

    3. CWChris Williamson54:09

       Yeah. And what- what are you looking for there? You're- you're- you're in this place. Are you taking down notes? Are you doing voice recordings? Are you taking videos and photos? Um, what are you looking out for?

    4. JCJack Carr54:19

       Videos, photos, uh, I had a whole stack of questions in a notebook that I had written out for the Mozambique trip for that first one. And I had a lot of phrases that I wanted to get translated into different dialects. So I had maybe nine, I think nine different dialects that I wanted things translated into, just in case. I didn't know which ones I'd use, but just in the off chance that I would use some of them, and I didn't want to go back, like, "Oh, I should have gotten that other thing translated, because now it makes more sense to have this other, you know, whatever involved." So, there's a lot of that. There's a lot of questions, like some basic stuff that I was going to ask about. But then once I got over there and started talking to people, then I wrote down and took so many notes on things that I never would have even thought to have asked, back in this air conditioned room, taking down notes, because one thing leads to another. You get to know people, you're having some drinks, you're having a cigar, you're having a shared experience together. Uh, you're learning about their background, and you would never have thought to create a background, because this is someone real, and he was telling you a story about their childhood or about how they got to this place in life or what their time was like in the military in Africa or whatever it might be. Uh, and you wouldn't have gotten that just by reading an article or typing in, uh, Mozambique on the, uh, in- in the- in the search bar. Um, so when I went to Kamchatka, I took a lot less. I had a couple of things I wanted to make sure I- I- I...... that I touched on or asked about. But a lot less, because I learned so much that wasn't even in my notes. But then when I went to Russia, it was very different. And I thought it was gonna be, because I hadn't taken the time to think about it ahead of time, but, uh, I thought that everybody was gonna be open just like they were in Mozambique. Everyone wanted to talk to me about their country and the politics and their background. Got to Russia, and I thought it was gonna be the same, and very quickly realized that, no, very, everyone was very guarded. And I think that's because for most of Russian history if someone was asking you the types of questions that I was for a thriller, political thriller, espionage thriller, that, uh, you weren't long for this world. Off to the Gulag with you type of a thing. So, they were just inherently more guarded, uh, over there, which was interesting as well, and also made it into the storyline. So, um, so for the next one, COVID hit, and so everything was shut down for the, the fourth novel. So, I, most of my research was online. Luckily it was a domestically based storyline, uh, so I did a lot of interviews just on Zoom or on the phone or, or via email. Um, and so, so that's... Same thing with the next one. I couldn't get to Israel, 'cause you, to get to Israel, uh, in middle of COVID, it was tough. Even if you were an Israeli citizen it was tough to get in and out of there. Everything kept changing, so I had to do a lot of research for that one just on my computer, and reading books, and then I sent those chapters though, the whole middle part of that, that last novel, In the Blood, is in Israel. And I sent it to a family in Israel who had three generations read it and someone in their 90s, someone in their 60s, someone in their 30s. And, uh, they all came back and said they couldn't believe that I hadn't been there. Uh, so that was, that's what I was-

    5. CWChris Williamson56:58

       Wow.

    6. JCJack Carr56:59

       Um, but research, uh, a lot of times you don't know ahead of time, even in the outline, where something's gonna lead. And, uh, so for this last one a few, I went down a few rabbit holes. And I had people on the podcast who I wouldn't have normally, uh, read their book because there's so much else going on, but they're coming on the podcast, so I had to read the book. I had to come up with questions, and then had a great conversation, and because of that, they've made it in here, made it into this last book.

    7. CWChris Williamson57:23

       Wow.

    8. JCJack Carr57:24

       So, uh, that's, that's, that's Brian Murar

    9. CWChris Williamson57:25

       That's a real... That's a fucking real content engine to have the podcast that I do to connect with the audience so that I can sell my book facilitates conversations with people who end up becoming inspiration for storylines within the book, which I then sell to the audience that listen to the podcasts, that-

    10. JCJack Carr57:42

        Exactly.

    11. CWChris Williamson57:43

        ... that I spoke about it on.

    12. JCJack Carr57:44

        A lot more crossover than I initially anticipated, and for the podcast, I thought podcast was just gonna be something I did to, uh, because I was getting a lot of questions on social media that didn't really lend themselves to a one sentence answer. Uh, and so I thought, "Well, if people are interested I'll just have a, a guest on and talk about this issue and it'll be a discussion, and that'll be great, and provide something of value." But there really is a lot of overlap in the last two books between the podcast and things that have made it into these stories. And in this one in particular, it was Able Archer and this event in 1983, where we almost had a nuclear exchange with the Soviet Union. Uh, and it, it was just, I didn't, I knew a little bit about it, but not nearly as much as I did after I read those, that book, which led me to two other books, and then multiple conversations with Brian Murar about it.

11. 58:25 – 1:03:50

    Why Jack Had His Book Approved by the DoD

    1. JCJack Carr58:25

    2. CWChris Williamson58:25

       So good. What about, um, national security issues when writing and getting clearance and stuff? Is that, do you ever encounter problems with that? Like, what if you accidentally come up with a fictional strategy that the US is actually trying to use at the moment or something?

    3. JCJack Carr58:40

       I guess you can always run into something like that, but for me it was really the, um, uh, uh, out of the gate I wanted to be, make sure I was just doing the right thing. So I submitted the first one for review to the Department of Defense Pre- Office of Pre-publication and Security Review, it's called, and that was just close to my time. Wrote, wrote it during that last year that I was in the military. The protagonist is a SEAL. But people think that SEALS, or special operations guys in general, know a bunch of secret stuff, and that really wasn't my experience. My experience was that we're doing essentially what every major city's SWAT team is gonna do tonight. They're gonna go serve a warrant, they're gonna knock on somebody's door, or not, uh, go in, grab them, bring them back. And that's really what we did, but we did it in places like, uh, like Kabul or Mosul or Baghdad or Ramadi or whatever, wherever it was. But very similar. I mean, you're going out with a group, with a team. Uh, you have a target. You go in, you grab them, you come back, and do a little interrogation, and go back out again. Um, so there wasn't really much secret about that. Um, but I wanted to be safe, so I submitted it. They took out nine sentences, I think it was. Not very many. And I thought it was pretty good. They said they'd get back in 30 days, and they got back in 45. And I thought, "Well, for a huge bureaucracy, that's great." So I submitted the second one, True Believer, and they took out, they took, well, I had to push the publication date because it wasn't 30 days and it wasn't 60, it wasn't 90. It was creeping up on seven months when they got back, so I had to push my publication date, uh, which was not helpful. Uh, and they took out 54, I want to say, 54, uh, either sentences or paragraphs or words, and this time though now I have lawyers. And so I had them tie each one of those redactions to a publicly available government document. Not something that's on Wikipedia or somebody else's book or somebody's interview, but things that anyone anywhere on the planet can get on a government website and download or see. And so they tied every single one of those, all 54, to publicly available US government documents.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:00:30

       Wait, so that defended you against having them removed?

    5. JCJack Carr1:00:33

       Uh, it's an appeal. So they're removed, go to publication with them removed, but now you have a certain amount of time to appeal. So, I appealed, and then I won on 37. Even though they were all tied, they let me win on 37. So then when the paperback came out, I un-redacted them, so now people can compare the hard cover to the paperback-

    6. CWChris Williamson1:00:50

       Wow.

    7. JCJack Carr1:00:51

       ... and see what the government was so worried about. Um, and so next book, Savage Son, I do the same thing. Uh, this one they get back in, I think it was like six months, six and a half, five, maybe five months at least. Uh, so I almost had to push publication date. Got it back. I think they took out, let's say-... 30 or something like that, lines. So I did that same thing. Uh, I was gonna- planning on doing the same thing. I was planning on having the paper back and un-redacting what they- what I won on, 'cause we tied all of those things to publicly available government documents. But then they didn't let me appeal. This time, they came back and they said we were, uh, we're in- even though we were on time, uh, a- ahead of time, it was all done properly, they, they would not look at the appeal. So now, I took that as them telling me, "Hey kid, quit bugging us with this fiction stuff. We have important s- government work to do here."

    8. CWChris Williamson1:01:32

       Yes.

    9. JCJack Carr1:01:32

       So, uh, so yeah, so now I don't, uh, don't submit, which I'm really glad I don't now because for the last few books, all my research, uh, if it's been in the national security space, uh, has touched on things that I had no experience with in the military. So for The Devil's Hand, that's bioweapons research, or what they call biodefense research, to get around certain conventions that were signed in the '70s. Um, and then the one book right before this, into AI and quantum computing, uh, from the national intelligence kind of, uh, apparatus, how that's being used there. So now, I'm really glad that I don't submit them because they would probably be taking out things, uh, that they shouldn't be taking out because I didn't learn it through my government service.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:02:11

        Oh, how interesting. It's so cool that, uh, people can get the paperback and the hardback and do their own investigative private eye thing to work out-

    11. JCJack Carr1:02:20

        Yeah.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:02:20

        ... what it was that maybe the government was a bit concerned about and now they-

    13. JCJack Carr1:02:23

        Yeah.

    14. CWChris Williamson1:02:23

        ... they've worked it back and forth. Yeah, that's so fascinating. Yeah, there's one location in particular. It's, uh... And I, I chose the location because I'd been there before my time in the military and I'll- I can tell you what it is now because I won on the appeal. But I put a CIA black site in Morocco, and I chose Morocco because I'd been there before my time in the military, I had such great memories of it, I loved it in Marrakesh. I just remember the sights, the sounds, the smells. It worked out geographically for my character to get where he needed to go, so it just- it just worked. So I created it out of whole cloth. I had no- never been to Morocco in uniform or through an intelligence service or anything like that. So, uh, they took out all the references to Morocco. I won these, this is why I'm talking about it, on appeal. But, uh, they took out references, not just where it said Morocco. They took out Moorish architecture, they took out Atlas Mountains, they took out anything they could give a hint that it... So, what does that tell us? It tells us that there is probably a CIA black site in Morocco. Uh, and if they... But if they hadn't even done that, I would- I would- I just thought and the reader would have thought that I just made it up anyway. So I think they- Uh, or maybe, maybe this is them playing five-dimensional-

    15. JCJack Carr1:03:28

        Yeah.

    16. CWChris Williamson1:03:28

        ... chess and it's a-

    17. JCJack Carr1:03:29

        I don't think government does that. I'm pretty sure it's-

    18. CWChris Williamson1:03:30

        ... false flagging a CIA black site in Morocco.

    19. JCJack Carr1:03:33

        Yeah, I don't think so. I think, uh-

    20. CWChris Williamson1:03:35

        Oh, what a shame.

    21. JCJack Carr1:03:36

        ... my experience in government service tells me that, uh-

    22. CWChris Williamson1:03:38

        (laughs) They don't think that far ahead?

    23. JCJack Carr1:03:40

        Yeah, yeah, it's the nicest way to say it. (laughs)

    24. CWChris Williamson1:03:43

        Wow. Yeah, I- I find, uh, I find that so interesting. Something else that's been fascinating

12. 1:03:50 – 1:08:50

    Public Opinion of Federal Agencies Vs Military

    1. CWChris Williamson1:03:50

       to me, and I noticed this. Are- are you familiar with Sean Ryan? Have you been on his show?

    2. JCJack Carr1:03:53

       Haven't been on his show. I know who he is, but we don't know each other.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:03:55

       Yeah, he's a f- an absolutely fantastic guy. Um, and he did... He moved through a number of different, uh, military services and stuff. And I've noticed this. If I bring somebody that is a Navy SEAL or a Green Beret or a Marine or whatever on the show, there is, uh, one particular type of, uh, interpretation of that person's career, of what they do for a job, of their role, et cetera, et cetera. And broadly, it's positive. If you bring somebody on that's ex-FBI or ex-CIA or ex-NSA, very different.

    4. JCJack Carr1:04:30

       Mm-hmm.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:04:31

       Very, very, very different. Especially given the fact that many operatives phase out of their more kinetic, uh, first job into one of these three-letter agencies to do something that, to be honest, as- for all that I know as a British civilian, doesn't sound that dissimilar. Like, it's the same skills.

    6. JCJack Carr1:04:51

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:04:51

       It's maybe a slightly better kit or slightly cooler kit, and it's a bit more clandestine and there's different security levels. Um, what- what- what is it? Why- why is that the case? Why is the, uh, public's interpretation, even in a broadly sort of pro-patriotic, pro-military veteran, uh, audience, what is it do you think that's triggering those people to have, uh, a little bit of skepticism or distaste for the three-letter agencies compared with people who could have gone on to three-letter agencies but just happened to stop at Marine or Green Beret or whatever?

    8. JCJack Carr1:05:28

       Yeah, I think we're naturally suspicious of, uh, authority, particularly when it comes to, uh, agencies in the federal government that operate under mandates that, uh, have a cloak of secrecy attached. I think there's generally, generally, uh, a more positive outlook on military because are you gonna get mad at the 18, 19, 20-year-old that just went over and did their job, serve food in the chow line or whatever, and now they're back and whatever it- whatever it might be. Um, but then you get into some of these, uh, government agencies and we can go back to not too distant in- in our nation's history and go back to the Church hearings or the Pike Committee hearings of the '70s that, uh, unveiled a lot of, uh, overreach by different agencies in the federal government, in particular the CIA, um, and kind of, uh, got the dirty laundry out there for all to see. Uh, and then of course there are changes made and- and things that were put in place to supposedly keep some of those things from happening again. Um, so I think there's- there's that natural distrust of large government in general, and then you add to that, uh, oh, this agency over here that's doing things in secret. Oh, you know what else they did in the past? They did these experiments on US citizens. Yeah, they may have been in a mental institution or a prison or part of the military or college students, but they did them and here's the documentation to prove it. Uh, here's the testimony in front of Congress in the '70s. Um, so I think there's just a natural, uh, skepticism and distrust there that's not unfounded, uh, that isn't really there with the military. With the military, it's more like, uh, ineptitude, uh, when we look at, uh, the withdrawal from Afghanistan. And I think of really when the- when people look at that, they can say, "You guys had 20 years to prepare for this?"... and this is your best you could do? Like I, I don't have any experience in the military. I've never seen a military movie. I've never read a book on strategy or tactics. But I can look at a map and I can apply common sense to this problem. And I can ask, "Wait, why are we giving up essentially the high ground, uh, here in Bagram and putting our, our young men and women at a tactically disadvantageous position at this airfield? Why didn't we just leave out of this other one that seems much more easily defendable?" Um, and that's a valid question to ask. So I think when we look at the military, it's more, and I mean we as a whole, it's more that ineptitude that stands out to us, not necessarily a, uh, a cloak and dagger type of a, uh, of, of like secret operations using citizens unbeknownst to them, or surveillance against US citizens, or anything like that.

Episode duration: 1:25:42