What Is Life Like On The Ground In Ukraine? - Jake Hanrahan

1. 0:00 – 1:45

   Intro

   1. JHJake Hanrahan0:00

      ... people where war comes to their doorstep and on Monday, they were the postman and on Tuesday they're a militant. The same thing happened in Syria. You know, the same thing happens in Palestine, the same thing happens in Afghanistan. These people all have lives, these people all have aspirations, dreams. They're normal people. (wind blowing)

   2. CWChris Williamson0:16

      Jake Hanrahan, welcome to the show.

   3. JHJake Hanrahan0:18

      Thanks very much, mate. Thanks for having me.

   4. CWChris Williamson0:20

      You are recently back from Ukraine. You left the day before everything started, but that ... you didn't mean for that to happen. That was just, uh, fortunate timing, I guess.

   5. JHJake Hanrahan0:28

      I mean, it was kind of... I think it was, like, two days actually, but it was, it was one of these things where, you know, me and the guy I was working with, my mate, Johnny Pickup, we were there, we were like, "Shall we stay?" It's probably not gonna happen, you know, because it just... I don't know. It was- it just seemed almost inconceivable. I don't know why, but it did at the time. We had a, we- we'd been filming anyway. We'd been filming with, like, the training, the militia training, so it's like, we had a good film anyway, um, which we're editing now. And I was like, "You know what? I've got things to do. Um, I've got family commitments." He's the same. We said, "All right, we'll go back." And then, (laughs) you know, two days into the edit, I get a call in the morning, like, "They've done it. They've invaded." It's like, wow, Jesus.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:04

      Why did you think it wasn't gonna happen?

   7. JHJake Hanrahan1:07

      Honestly, it was, I think, maybe the mood in Kiev, you know, like, uh, like, four days before the invasion, we were out chatting to people at the pub, you know, stuff like that. You know, local Ukrainians in Kiev, and they were like, "No, there's no way. Like, it's not gonna happen." The government wasn't really preparing bomb shelters. Like, it- it... I know that, you know, Biden said it's gonna happen, and then all these other intelligence agencies did, but they said it was gonna be on this day, then this day, then this day. And I think the enormity of it just, you know, naively perhaps, I ... A lot ... Well, it wasn't just me. A lot of people just thought, "No, probably not gonna happen like that. Probably just the east." But lo and behold, you know, he went in, uh, you know, full pelt.

2. 1:45 – 8:53

   Current Civilian Life in Ukraine

   1. CWChris Williamson1:45

      What is it like, then ... I know that you've been back since this fighting's fully started, but you are ... You've got Popular Front, which is your, uh, organization, conflict reporting, independent journalism and stuff, and you guys are putting out an unbelievable amount of videos, footage. You've got friends you've ... Literally, we've had to delay recording because one of your friends-

   2. JHJake Hanrahan2:03

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson2:03

      ... has rang from Kiev to say that there's been some heavy bombing going on. Can you try and explain to people what life is like for civilians in Ukraine at the moment?

   4. JHJake Hanrahan2:14

      Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's a good question because there's a lot of focus on the West kind of lording up this and lording up that, or then it's, like, online political people screaming that their ideology isn't being appeased. The reality is, people on the ground, civilians, you know, like you've just said, are living in bomb shelters. There are people ... Like, the ... I saw some photos earlier. There's, like, a makeshift hospital, um, in- in a- in- in one of the, you know, in the- in one of the basements. There are children with cancer, you know, under bombardment now, like, getting treatment in a basement best they can. A little girl, a six-year-old girl was killed, um, the other day. Uh, rocket landed near a supermarket and she was killed. Um, the- the photos are just- just horrific. Like, there was a, you know, a photo journalist just happened to be with his family and they're rushing him into the hospital and she just dies on the bed. The mother's just there, like, crying. You know, it- it's absolutely brutal. Um, and there's a lot of political kind of nonsense going on. And I really think that the focus, it's like, yeah, well, civilians are dying right now. I think it's around 135 civilians have been killed in one week. Um, 13 of those were children, 400 people, civilians wounded, around 1,000 to 2,000 fighters on each side killed. Um, it's one week in. It's madness, you know. It's very, very serious, very brutal. And Russia is, no matter which way you're painting it, they- they are indiscriminately hitting civilian areas right now. You know, they're bombing apartment blocks. Um, like- like you just said, um, a bomb just went off, or a rocket hit, I should say, um, near the, near the, one of the train stations. The train stations, the subway system is where everybody goes for the bomb shelters. Like, what- what strategic target possibly could that be? I don't know, but it does seem to be like, you know, they're going after civilians. We've seen them do the same thing in Syria. Um, not to say that the West doesn't do the exact same thing. Um, everybody wants to do this, that and the other. Like, "Oh, what about, what about..." It's like, yes, yes, very seriously. I mean, like, two months ago, um, America wiped out a whole civilian family in Af- in Afghanistan as they were leaving and just were like, "Toodle-loo." No one was charged, nothing happened. Awful. But right now, you know, we're talking about Ukraine. Yeah, it's like, yeah, civilians are getting bombed left and right. It's really bad.

   5. CWChris Williamson4:24

      Are there no-

   6. JHJake Hanrahan4:24

      The food's running out as well, I should say. Like, sorry, yeah, the- the food is running out as well, and medicines as well. I just spoke to a friend and she's like, "My grandma, she's in Kharkiv. She's- she's 95. Her medicine's gonna run out in a couple days. Like, what can we do?" It's just- it's so brutal, man.

   7. CWChris Williamson4:39

      Are there no rules? I don't understand, whatever it is, the- the rules of engagement, uh, around the sort of targets that you can hit. If you decide to invade a country, are you just allowed to indiscriminately target, um, missiles wherever you want?

   8. JHJake Hanrahan4:56

      I mean, you know, there is, there is the Geneva Convention and, you know, war crimes, but essentially it doesn't- that doesn't really exist, you know what I mean? No one sticks to it really.

   9. CWChris Williamson5:06

      I don't know- I don't know what you mean.

   10. JHJake Hanrahan5:07

       So, I mean, um, you know, I mean, there's an- is an example of, like, NATO, you know. There was, um, a few years ago, there was videos of Turkish soldiers, um, murdering prisoners of war. There's a video of them, like, holding a beheaded, you know, a prisoner of war. They're holding their head. That's a NA- that's NATO's second-largest army. There wasn't even an investigation. You know, like, NATO's kind of just poopoo it, "Oh, it's Kurdish rebels, don't worry about it," sort of thing. So, you know, a- again, another incident. Um, Turkey burned a load of civilians to death in a basement, um, in a town called Cizre in southeast Turkey in 2016 and, you know, nothing really happened, you know. So it's- it's, you know, it's- it's very ... The West is (laughs) it's very firmly on their high horse right now but, you know, there is no real rules, let's be honest. There is, you know, the concept of war crime. I'm not saying that we should ignore it. Of course not. It's brutal, it's disgusting, but at the end of the day when war happens, a lot of the rules go clean out the window, you know what I mean? It's just- it's unfortunately the way it is. Things get very primitive and very nasty things happen, you know. And Russia have just said, you know, "We're gonna just do this," I guess. Not that they're justified at all. I think it's absolutely horrendous and abhorrent whenever civilians are targeted. Like, it's just disgusting. Um, and I think in- in terms of, like...... I don't know about legal laws, but, like, natural law. It's just, like, horrendous, you know what I mean? If there's a hell, none of those people deserve to go there. But it, it's... Yeah, when you're talking about rules of engagement, it gets very flimsy when the war starts. You know what I'm saying?

   11. CWChris Williamson6:32

       Yeah, that makes sense.

   12. JHJake Hanrahan6:33

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson6:33

       You said that you were in town, whatever, in the pub four days before. Most of the people that were there that were civilians that are now facing the potential of being hit with missiles-

   14. JHJake Hanrahan6:44

       (clears throat)

   15. CWChris Williamson6:44

       ... basically didn't think that it was going to happen. It seemed like the government didn't think it was going to happen. Does that mean that in terms of provisions, protection, preparation, there's, there's, um... It's insubstantial?

   16. JHJake Hanrahan6:57

       Yes, definitely. Yeah. That's, that is true. I mean, don't get me... I'm not knocking Zelensky. He's really risen to the, kind of, the occasion, you know. He's definitely... I, I respect that he's staying with the people there. He's in Kyiv. It's, it's... You know, the US offered to take him, you know, to take him out, like, "We'll get you out," and he said, "No, we're staying here." Like, fair play to him. But there's a lot being ignored here while people are lording up Zelensky. There's a lot being ignored. The fact that the bomb shelters weren't properly readied. We interviewed a lad, um, a very good local reporter in Kyiv who, the week before, had gone around to all the bomb shelters that the government had designated. Some of them, like, there was padlocks on them and it had a number, "Call this number." He called the number and the woman was like, "I don't know why everybody's ringing me. There is no key." You know, things like that. There's not enough food provisions. So whilst, whilst on one degree it's like, "Yeah, okay, Zelensky's doing his thing now," I do start to think, like, what was happening before that? You know, like, why wasn't there more preparations? It's not for me to say maybe, but I think it's worth looking at, you know, essentially in the long run. But right now, I guess that is not really here nor there. It's happened and this is what's happening now. But yeah, I, I would agree that it, it seemed to me anyway, and we spoke to a lot of people, you know, covered a lot of things. And, um, it, it didn't... Yeah, it didn't look like there was proper preparations. You know, we went to... There was one place, it was a bomb shelter, but it was also a strip club, you know? (laughs) It was used as a strip club because, you know, no one's had to use the bomb shelter. And that's fine, you know, whatever. And it was kind of funny, but at the end of the day, it's like, well, shouldn't, shouldn't that be gutted and turned into... You know, there was no preparations there. There wasn't stacks of food. There wasn't heating. There wasn't blankets. There... You know what I mean? It's... That's not, that's not really preparation. They just sprayed a thing on the wall saying, "Bomb shelter in case of emergency," or something like that. And it's like, that's not really preparation, you know what I mean? Um, so yeah, I definitely think, you know, there's... That could've been done more. But again, there's a massive subway system in U- in Kyiv especially, and across Ukraine, so, you know, I know that a lot of people are down there. But yeah, it's, it's very... It's looking

3. 8:53 – 14:07

   Russian Strategy

   1. JHJake Hanrahan8:53

      bad.

   2. CWChris Williamson8:54

      What would you say... Uh, uh, how would you say that the Russian offensive's gone so far? Do you reckon that they expected to be further along than this by this point?

   3. JHJake Hanrahan9:03

      Yeah, I mean, I'll be honest, I'm kind of, you know, through and through a reporter on the ground. I don't really look too much into the kind of analysis and that, because I've seen things happen at war where it's like, you know, if 50,000 analysts are telling you this and you get there and you're like, "Oh, this is not at all what it is." You know. Not to disrespect them, but it's, it's quite easy to do an analysis from the desk. But I will say that I do think that Russia... Uh, the signs you can see that Russia perhaps expected it to go quicker than this is that, um... I can't remember the exact one, but Russia basically, um, Putin I should say, um, sacked one of his, like, head kinda commanders, you know what I mean? Replaced him quite early on. I think, like, the fourth day of the invasion. So I think that gives you a sign that something... And, you know, something's not right here, something's not really going the way they did. And, and honestly, you know, the, uh... It's... The Ukrainian resistance is very real, you know what I mean? I, I've been back and forth to Ukraine I think almost 10 times, uh, since I was 27. So I'm 32 now. You know, a couple years, little while. I've been back and forth to the front lines, all over the place. The culture they have there is one of resistance. You know, it's very... I mean, you just have to look at the amount of people joining the citizen militias. Every, every people... I'm talking to friends there, like reporters, and I'm like, "Oh, how's the fixer you're working with?" And they're like, "Oh, he's gone. He joined the resistance." (laughs) You, you know what I mean? Like, uh, there's a lot of people. There's mechanics. There's metal workers who are making big, what they call hedgehogs, like, big kind of spiked metal things to put in the road to try and deter tanks or, or armored vehicles. Everyone is doing their bit, you know. They, there's... Um, I think we spoke to a, a lad yesterday and he was saying that there was like, um... Well, we did speak to a lad yesterday, but he was saying that there was, like, a, a guy that was a roofer just preparing Molotovs, you, you know, (laughs) just for everybody in the street, you know. It's, it's everyone has kind of come together and there is, like, a real resistance, which is commendable. I think anyone that's been invaded by, by a country and they're a sovereign state and whatever, like, fair play, they can resist. It's absolutely their, their prerogative to do so. But I don't think they can resist completely, you know. I think Kyiv is gonna fall, unfortunately. It will take longer than Russia expected, and it has been a bit of a meat grinder. You know, the, the Ukraine military are really a lot more prepared, a lot more powerful than they were, um, in 2014 after the revolution when, you know, Russia annexed Crimea and the, the fighting started in the east of Ukraine. But, but the, the problem is, like, Russia is an incredibly powerful military, you know. And they, they have... You know, Ukraine is completely outgunned. Um, and Russia has already shown that they will do... They will go all the way in terms of, "We will just bomb civilians. We will just do that." You know what I'm saying? So I think that's a worry. However, I will say that once they do start taking major cities, the guerrilla warfare will start, and that will be hell for the Russians. I really believe that. Not on any kind of romantic level, just as a, as an observation of... I've covered a lot of guerrilla war.

   4. CWChris Williamson11:48

      How, how so? What do you mean?

   5. JHJake Hanrahan11:49

      Well, it's... You know, if you've got, like, a united people. I mean, you've got people... There's militias from all different backgrounds there. Unfortunately, there's, like, far-right militias, but there's also Jewish militias, there's Chechen militias, Russ- um, uh, Belarusian militias, there's an anti-fascist militia right now that is just gathering steam. So everybody is coming together and are like, "Right, we're fighting. We're not having this." Sort of thing.

   6. CWChris Williamson12:09

      And they're, they're going side by side? So you would have-

   7. JHJake Hanrahan12:11

      Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson12:11

      ... potentially a Jewish militia and a Nazi militia fighting shoulder to shoulder?

   9. JHJake Hanrahan12:17

      Potentially you could. It's happened before. (laughs) Yeah, it's happened before. It's, it's a weird situation and it's one that people jump on, but I've seen weirder things happen in war. You know what I mean? Like I said, a lot of the rules go out the window. All of the internet analysis is irrelevant completely. (laughs) You know what I'm saying? Not that, you know... I mean, the, the far-right element is, is horrific. I, I think it's awful, but it is...It's not, uh, you know, I mean, the president is Jewish. He was voted in with a 73% majority. At the same time, the far Right parties formed a coalition for that election. They got less than 3% of the vote. So the idea that the whole country is Nazi is not true. But the idea that, you know, the Nazi element is propaganda is also not true. It is a serious problem, but like I said, it's, it's a very, it's a very diverse country. There's 44 million people live there. It's huge. There's, there's people from all over the place. Um, but, you know, i- i- it's, it's, it's the guerrilla warfare element of it I think will really, will really see that if they start taking big cities, because yeah, a lot of the, the, you know, citizen militias will probably go, "I didn't sign up for this. I'm leaving, actually." But a lot won't. A lot will go to ground and they'll st- set bombs and they'll, (laughs) you know, you know, they'll start doing assassinations. Um, not because, you know, oh, Ukrainians are special. That's just how it happens, you know? I- I've seen it in so many different countries and when you have, like, a, a unit of people like that, that are well-armed ... I think Ukraine is the s- 22nd most armed country on Earth. (laughs) You know, it's, they're not just gonna go-

   10. CWChris Williamson13:40

       And there's only 44 million people there.

   11. JHJake Hanrahan13:42

       Yeah, and there's a lot of guns, (laughs) you know what I mean? And a lot of weapons are coming in from the West. Um, and they'll make their own stuff. They already are, you know? And th- they're already, a lot of these people are war veterans anyway, you know? They're, they're primed for this. They're ready. So I think you're gonna see, unfortunately, like, really horrific, you know, brutality. But again, it's, it's war, you know what I mean? And if someone comes in and takes their city, who's to tell them they're not allowed to resist that in any way possible, you know what I mean?

   12. CWChris Williamson14:06

       How much

4. 14:07 – 23:46

   Armed Civilian Response

   1. CWChris Williamson14:07

      of this ... 'Cause you've, you've kind of identified that, uh, when an invasion begins, this sort of more primitive, primal, um, demeanor takes over the people that are being invaded, but it seems to me like the Ukrainian response has been pretty intense. You know, I've seen Oleksandr Usyk in-

   2. JHJake Hanrahan14:28

      (laughs) Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson14:28

      ... full military gear.

   4. JHJake Hanrahan14:29

      Thought so. Yeah, yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson14:30

      Yeah. I've seen, uh, Volodymyr Lomachenko in-

   6. JHJake Hanrahan14:33

      Yeah, great. My f- one of my favorite boxers, yeah, yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson14:34

      Unbelievable boxer.

   8. JHJake Hanrahan14:35

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson14:35

      I mean, I wouldn't want to get in hand-to-hand combat with him, but-

   10. JHJake Hanrahan14:38

       (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson14:38

       ... like, why are you, why are you rolling around with a gun? So my point is just that so many people have taken up arms in one form or another. Like, how, how c- uh, how common is it for th- y- the heavyweight, heavyweight champions and, you know, ev- literally everybody-

   12. JHJake Hanrahan14:54

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson14:54

       ... that can pick up a gun to do that? Is this part of Ukrainian culture, or, or is this, again, just par for the course when you get an invasion?

   14. JHJake Hanrahan15:01

       No, no. Y- y- it's a, that's a great question because, yeah, like, I mean, if that happened in Britain, I, I obviously, you know, influencers would not be picking up guns, I'm sure. You know? (laughs)

   15. CWChris Williamson15:09

       Anthony Joshua stood there with an AK-47-

   16. JHJake Hanrahan15:11

       Maybe Joshua, but, you know? (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson15:12

       ... on the White Cliffs of Dover.

   18. JHJake Hanrahan15:13

       But, like, you know, maybe Fury as well. Like, but, but I think most, you know, influencers would be kind of hashtagging themselves and thanks for the support, but I doubt, you know, that militias would form like that. I think that Ukrainian culture is quite specific in that they've been ... Again, it's an amalgamation of all different people. I think that, you know, that it's a very, very old history. I think it's, like, 800 AD, the Kievan Rus was, like, uh, you know, that's where Kiev kind of started. It's a very old culture and they've been invaded. You know, they were under occupation. They've, they've been ... well, you know, they were part of the USSR for a bit. There was, um, a whole lot more horrific massacres from the USSR. There was Nazi, you know, the Nazis invaded as well. Unfortunately, there was, like, a lot of Ukraine collaborators as well with the Nazis, so it's just a mad country with, like ... Not mad. I don't mean, like, ooh, they're mad. I just ... Just, like, a very kind of ... I don't know. Like, a- an interesting culture of, like, resistance, war, horrible war crimes, you know, massacres. It's just in their culture and I think they're at a stage now where they're just like, "We already have the basis. We know what's coming, so we're not gonna, you know, we're not gonna accept it anymore." And I really like Ukrainian people, like, on a, in general. Like, they're very kind of stoic, but very fun people. Very funny, very eloquent people. I keep seeing all these idiots, like kind of strange internet people that are like, "Isn't it, isn't it convenient that this guy came out with this one-liner? Oh, it's clearly propaganda." It's like, "You've clearly never been to Ukraine" (laughs) because the people are coming out with that all the time. They're very funny, very sharp people. Same with Russians as well. Like, very similar culture. Russians, great people. I think it's sad that the way ... (sighs) There's a really disgusting current happening right now. For example, earlier, I saw that the Glasgow Film Festival had canceled two screenings of two Russian films. Nothing to do with the Kremlin, not propaganda. Like, what, what are you doing?

   19. CWChris Williamson16:59

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JHJake Hanrahan16:59

       Like, why are you persecuting a normal Russian person for something the government has done? You know? I mean, look at Boris Johnson. In my opinion, he's horrendous. Imagine if people then started saying, "Oh, no Brits allowed here." You know what I mean? You would be like, "Oh, that's unfair." You know? So I think you have to look at it like that. But yeah, t- to answer your question, I just think that it's part of their culture. There's a lot of weapons and they've been at threat for war from a long time. And since 2014, the war in East Ukraine has been active, you know? People seem to forget that. Last year, I think, well, more than 50 Ukraine servicemen died on the front lines. Now people say, "Oh, that's not a lot." Well, it was meant to be a ceasefire. It's quite a lot, you know what I'm saying? Um, so, uh, you know, the media, there's this thing now that, oh, suddenly people care about Ukraine. It's like, well, only for the last two months. For the last eight years, the media has not been that interested, you know? I remember going there making Frozen War, you know, the Frozen Conflict documentaries, and people ... One lad died the day we were there, sort of thing, you know? Like, after we'd left and that. But, you know, it's just like, yeah, it, it's been an active war and now it's an even bigger war now. It's, it's just, it's in their culture and it's, it, you know, they're, they're a tough people, basically, you know?

   21. CWChris Williamson18:04

       Who are some of the other celebrities that I might have missed off that, uh-

   22. JHJake Hanrahan18:07

       Oh.

   23. CWChris Williamson18:07

       ... Ukrainian people that have joined? Have you seen some others?

   24. JHJake Hanrahan18:10

       I see, um, I see Usyk, I see Lomachenko. I've seen, well, he's not a celebrity, but the former president, um, what's his name? (smacks lips) Anyway, it don't matter. The former president, he was in Poland, I think. There was some kind of dispute between the current president and some kind of theatrics. The current president wanted to arrest him for something, so he was in Poland and he came back. But when the war started, he just came back, handed his passport in, and was, you know, filmed on the streets with a rifle. He's quite an old man. Maybe that's just for show, but maybe (laughs) it's not. He's got a-

   25. CWChris Williamson18:40

       How, how much truth was there in those stories around-... 80-year-olds, ex-servicemen turning up.

   26. JHJake Hanrahan18:47

       Oh, yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson18:48

       Was that true?

   28. JHJake Hanrahan18:49

       Oh, yeah. I, I mean, yeah, without a doubt. I mean, that's, that's ... I've seen a lot of, like, post-Soviet states, just old lads, just like, "Right, let's go." You know, they've, they've done it. Um, yeah, I, I wouldn't say that that's not true, definitely not. How useful they'll be in a war, I don't know, you know, because-

   29. CWChris Williamson19:03

       (laughs)

   30. JHJake Hanrahan19:04

       ... perhaps they're not so mobile. But fair play to them, you know, they're, they're out there. Um, yeah, yeah, definitely. We, we interviewed a 61-year-old man at the training, um, a week ago, and he was like, yeah, like ... He was a Microsoft, he worked for Microsoft, he was like an IT engineer. And he was like, "Look, I'm learning to, you know, use a rifle. I'm learning to do this just in case." So there's definitely, you know, uh, uh, as much as people (laughs) don't want it to be true sometimes, you know, there's a lot of very tough people that are just ... I, I think the West has this weird perception of, like, tough people are like Rambo and big guys with tattoos. It's like, no, man, like the most unassuming people I have met, like guerrilla fighters, you know, if they were in their normal clothes, you would just, you know, you wouldn't, you wouldn't pass them in the street. (laughs) You know, and it's, these are the people that really come to, come to the battle. It's not about being a big guy, it's about, you know, having integrity and, and they want to fight for something. And, and a lot of people, uh, you know, unfortunately, it's war, but a lot of people do actually flourish in that.
5. 23:46 – 30:16

   Logistics of Ukraine’s Defence

   1. JHJake Hanrahan23:46

   2. CWChris Williamson23:46

      Where ... So obviously, Ukraine's very heavily armed, whatever it is-

   3. JHJake Hanrahan23:50

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson23:50

      ... 20- 22nd most armed country in the world, 44 million people live there. How are these gun ... Like, w- where are these guns? Are there huge warehouses? Are they being distributed by some sort of central authority? Are the army helping with distributing these guns to the militia? And also, is there somebody that's managing the militia in terms of-

   5. JHJake Hanrahan24:07

      (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson24:07

      ... movements and stuff like that?

   7. JHJake Hanrahan24:09

      Uh, (laughs) sort of. I mean, again, it's, you know, when war, when this kind of war happens so quickly, mass- whole country invaded, like, a, a lot of it goes out the window. Um, I know that there's footage of, you know, um, I think, like, the second day or the third day ... So they have what's called the territorial defense, which was what I was filming with, citizens that have no military experience, mostly that just are getting trained by people with military experience, kind of telling them, "This is what to do if we get invaded." You know, guerrilla movement, checkpoints, how to listen to orders, you know, how to hold a gun, how to fire it. They were all, they were all immediately called up. I think day one, actually, a lad told me yesterday, they were on the street immediately in Kyiv. A lot of them didn't need to be told, they just went, "Right, I've got my training." So a lot of people have guns, you know, they have firearms. It's not like America, but a lot of people do have firearms. A lot of people have been buying up firearms before this happened, so they just took their gun, immediately went to the street. I think by like day three, there's videos of the military just turning up and saying, "Anyone that wants a gun, come and get one." Um, which is (laughs) maybe not the best idea in the long run, but I guess when your ...... you know, no one's coming to save them. NATO's not going to help them. They know that, you know. Um, I guess, you know, what can you do? I, I think-

   8. CWChris Williamson25:15

      Open the back of the truck up and just-

   9. JHJake Hanrahan25:16

      Literally, that's, that's literally what's happening.

   10. CWChris Williamson25:18

       ... grab your magazine, grab a rifle, crack on.

   11. JHJake Hanrahan25:20

       Yeah. And in po- the postwar, you know, era will be very interesting to see, and a lot of people are saying, "Oh, that's, it's really bad, what's going to happen after?" But it's like, no one's thinking about that. People just-

   12. CWChris Williamson25:29

       What, what do they mean? Why, why is it going to be bad?

   13. JHJake Hanrahan25:32

       Because you've got, like, you know, loads of militias, all armed, currently unified against Russia, but when that's done, what's going to happen? (laughs) You know what I mean? They're not just going to go, "Oh, okay, we'll put the guns away." Probably not.

   14. CWChris Williamson25:43

       Oh, I suppose that you can't just turn aggression on and off like a switch.

   15. JHJake Hanrahan25:46

       Yeah, and there's going to be certain factions that want control of this area because, I don't know, 50 of their lads died fighting there, um, and women, you know, there's, there's women as well fighting, and, and then there might be one group that's like, "Well, we don't like your politics, we're going to kill you now." You know, it happened in Syria and I, I don't want to compare the two because people are doing that a little bit too, um, kind of willy-nilly, but, you know, that did happen in Syria. A lot of groups, once they'd chased out one threat, kind of infighting happened. You know, it's just natural human behavior, you know, and there's, there's no reason that that wouldn't happen in Ukraine as well. But again, it's like, let's, let's focus on what's happening now. You know, there, there are children dying, people are running out of food, and no one's coming to help, you know what I mean? There's, the West is sending weapons and, and stuff like that, but not that I'm, I'm, I'm not, uh, advocating for a big, like, large-scale, um, like, intervention. I mean, that would be crazy, I think, because no doubt, that would cause a much broader war in the whole of Europe, which nobody wants. But, you know, Ukrainians have realized that it, it's them, you know, it's all on them. We, we spoke to a young woman that she just said, like, "We need to be ready." I'm just, I was just editing actually the doc and she's like, "We need to be prepared first, before..." You know, and she was like, "All the brains are here." Meaning, like, the Ukrainians are here already, that's, that's what we need to rely on. And I, I think they understand that. Um, (laughs) yeah, it's just, in terms of, like, the mobilization, there are, there are, um, like, a central command essentially that's saying, like, "Right, this unit out there, this unit there." But it gets very messy, you know, and a lot of the militias kind of act autonomously, and it's understandable to a degree if you hear, "Oh, there's soldiers down there. Right, let's go." You know what I mean?

   16. CWChris Williamson27:17

       Go to the sho- soldiers, yeah, exactly.

   17. JHJake Hanrahan27:18

       Right, yeah, they're not waiting-

   18. CWChris Williamson27:18

       It's not going to be sophisticated pincer movements with people-

   19. JHJake Hanrahan27:22

       No.

   20. CWChris Williamson27:22

       ... stacking up against walls and stuff like that. Yeah, I mean... Dude, I mean, this is, uh, i- it's interesting that you say, "Oh, this is nothing new, you know, we've seen this a million times before." This is literally what you specialize in, in terms of reporting.

   21. JHJake Hanrahan27:35

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CWChris Williamson27:35

       But this is the first time that I've seen, you know, just people, civilians band together and try and create some ad hoc, (laughs) ad hoc army.

   23. JHJake Hanrahan27:47

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson27:47

       Uh, that is w- mostly self-propelled, self-disciplined, self-taught. It's wild.

   25. JHJake Hanrahan27:55

       Yeah, I mean, I think... It is, I think the, the difference is less attention was, was put on the others. But I wouldn't say, you know, a lot of people are saying, "Oh, the media didn't care when it happened in Syria." The media, the media absolutely cared when it happened in Syria. You know what I mean? There was loads of reporters there. Uh, you know, several journalists lost their lives. Um, there was a lot of media attention. Not enough, and there's not enough now still, but, you know, the, the media definitely did care. Um, and, uh, you know, that, that's what happened in Syria, you know, that's what happened i- in many different... It's what happened, it's happening now in Su- Sudan, you know, happened in Sudan, um, last year and the year before. Hap- it's happening in Eritrea, it's happening in, you know, um, not Eritrea, um, ugh, a country near there. But yeah, l- you know, there's a lot happening all over the world, um, but I guess people are just more focused on this because it is Europe, you know. I do understand that people are like, "Why are people so focused?" It's like, well, if you live in Europe and you're just, you know, you're a normal person going about your life, you've got stuff to do, you've got worries, you've got bills, kids, this, that, and a third, you're, you're obviously going to be more worried about the war that's closer to you. You know, it's just human nature, that's just, that doesn't mean you're a bad person or you don't care about people from a different country, it's just the way it is, you know? And I, I think people are trying to do these big, you know, self-aggrandizing tweets and all of that, like, "Oh, why doesn't... Why, why don't, people don't care about these people there." And it's like, look, (sighs) people care because Ukraine is a four-hour plane f- journey away, you know? And at the end of the day... There, there has been some awful things though in the media. Like, CBS News had some guy on the other day and was like, "Oh, these, these are not, these are, um..." He didn't use the word savages, but he said like, "These are civilized people." It's like, what?

   26. CWChris Williamson29:35

       Yeah, I saw, I saw that. (laughs)

   27. JHJake Hanrahan29:36

       Like, what the hell are you talking about? Like, the Middle East is like just one of the, like, most incredible places ever. Like poetry, you know what I mean? Like just, just incredible, like, infrastructure, smart people, learning, language, food, as, as if like this place was some kind of island where people didn't exist before. So I think there's a real problem with that. People coming out with idiotic things like, "Oh, these are refugees with blue eyes and blonde hair." Like, the hell does that matter? You know what I mean? Like, that's, that is, it's, in my opinion, it's internalized-

   28. CWChris Williamson30:04

       When you-

   29. JHJake Hanrahan30:04

       Well, not even internalized, it's mask-of racism.

   30. CWChris Williamson30:06

       Y- Well, yeah, when you're criticizing the Nazi militia and using that, uh, in the next sentence.
6. 30:16 – 36:41

   Polarised Views of the Invasion

   1. CWChris Williamson30:16

      any idea how much support this invasion has from Ukrainian public people?

   2. JHJake Hanrahan30:23

      Oh, no, none. (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson30:24

      Well, I've got a, I've got a friend, I've got a friend whose family is Ukrainian-

   4. JHJake Hanrahan30:28

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson30:28

      ... Russian speakers, and they're, they're happy about the... They see themselves as-

   6. JHJake Hanrahan30:32

      Really?

   7. CWChris Williamson30:32

      Yeah, they see themselves as a part of Russia. They're, uh-

   8. JHJake Hanrahan30:35

      Oh, uh, people in the east, yeah. Like, the, there's, so there's, there's a lot of... That's true, yeah, I should, yeah, I... Saying Ukrainian, I don't, they don't consider themselves Ukrainian, you know, but like, s- sure, like in the east, there is a lot of, you know, the, the Russian-backed separatist regions. There's a lot of people there. I mean, the, the thing is though that I keep hearing this Russian speaker thing, it's, they, they say, "Oh, they, they don't let Russians speak," everyone speaks Russian in Ukraine. Most people speak-

   9. CWChris Williamson30:57

      Are they... So Ukrainian is, is one language, Russian is another?

   10. JHJake Hanrahan31:01

       Yeah. Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson31:01

       And most people speak both?

   12. JHJake Hanrahan31:04

       I'd say most people speak Russian. Yeah, yeah, like the idea that it's-

   13. CWChris Williamson31:07

       Whether you're, whether you're a separatist or not?

   14. JHJake Hanrahan31:09

       ... whether you accept it or not. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson31:11

       Right. Okay.

   16. JHJake Hanrahan31:11

       In Kiev, most people speak Russian. Yeah, yeah. Like, it's... (laughs) You know, like, it's, it's crazy. There's this idea that, "Oh, they, they hate Russian speakers." It's a complete myth, like utter myth. There was... I think, to be fair, there was, like, some ridiculous decree came out at the very height of the, like, war when it started in, in, in 2014, where I think someone in the government was like, "We need to not allow Russian-speaking whatever." And then it very quickly was kiboshed. It was like, "Don't be ridiculous." Like, "Don't be so stupid." Like, and that was done. But that was it, you know what I mean? Like, the idea that Russia... it was on all the signs. You know (laughs) , it's like everybody speaks Russian there. Um, I'd argue that it's most people's first language, you know, in Ukraine. Um, they, they speak a mix as well, right? They will say one sentence in Russian, one sentence in Ukrainian. That is not the issue. Um, the issue is that, yes, there's a lot of people in the east that identify as Russian. Um, that's their problem. That's up to them. No one can tell them they can't. But, but these Russian-backed separatists in this region, I've been there. I've been to that side. And there's this idea that it's some kind of, like, Russian socialist utopia. Like, it's, it's really not. It's, it's very grim. Um, it's very totalitarian. There, there's no, like, free media there or anything like that. They were faking loads of... On the lead-up to this invasion, they were faking all these insane videos where... Th- th- the one that sticks out specifically, they filmed, um, like, a body in a, in a burnt-out car, but the skull was all pulled back and you could literally see the incision, like, line in the skull where, clearly, there'd been an autopsy on that (laughs) body already, you know? They'd taken it out of the morgue. Yeah, yeah. They'd taken it out of the morgue. Um, and th- there was a lot of weird things going on like that. When I was there in the, on the Russian-backed separatist side, they basically, like, faked a shootout. Like, there was like, "There's gonna be a shootout," and, like, within five minutes there was. Um, uh, suddenly all of the minders that were with us didn't have their flak jacket and helmet on, despite them telling us there's gonna be a shootout. And then when we got back, we looked at the front lines where we were, and it was like we weren't even facing the right direction, you know? It was very odd. So, you know, there's a lot of propaganda there. Not to say that Ukrainians, uh, you know, don't do anything like that. But generally, it's... The, the Ukraine... Th- look, the, the aggressor was in the east. I don't... You know, it's, it's not a political s- thing to say. The Ukrainians overthrew their government, there was a revolution, and then Russia took Crimea, annexed it, there was a battle there, and then the separatists rose up and there was a battle there. You know, it's, it's... It is what it is. Um, but no. I, I wouldn't say that... I wouldn't say there's a lot of support. (laughs) Yeah, in the east. That's a good point. In the east, the people that feel that they're Russian and they've... I mean, the- they'll only allow Russian TV channels there, you know? They can't get Ukrainian TV channels. So, they've just been fed, like, state media for a long time, and they... You know. And it's up to them if they want to live in a Russian state. Sure, that's fine. But, but I would say the vast majority of people in Ukraine are not for this. And, and also, I'll be honest as well, actually. Um, another thing that a local reporter showed me. There was, in Telegram channels, when Russia was putting out all this propaganda, like this fake stuff, there was a lot of people in the Donbas region, you know, Russian-speaking, pro-Russian, they were commenting, and they were like, "This is nonsense." Like, "We know it's nonsense. Russia doesn't care about us." Not that they like Ukraine, but they're just like, "Russia doesn't care about... They're just using us." You know, whi- which is, I think, accurate. You know what I mean? Um, so there's... You know, people aren't all one entity. But (laughs) yeah, th- yeah. I mean, look, kids are getting killed right now and the whole country is in chaos, um, and 500,000 more, like, people have, have fled, you know. I, I would say that any support is, is drastically diminishing for the Russians.

   17. CWChris Williamson34:38

       How about in Russia, in terms of the people that reject?

   18. JHJake Hanrahan34:42

       Mm.

   19. CWChris Williamson34:42

       So, I've got a guy who's in my, uh, locals community, and they posted earlier on this week, uh, "So, while I still have the internet (you never know these days) , quick update on what was happening here yesterday in St. Petersburg. Massive anti-war rallies. I'm fine since I'm a fast runner, but a lot of people were arrested. Peace."

   20. JHJake Hanrahan35:02

       Mm.

   21. CWChris Williamson35:02

       "Hoping for the best." Terrifying.

   22. JHJake Hanrahan35:04

       Yeah. I mean... Yeah, it's really... I mean, you know, there... I think there were 1,000 people arrested for just standing in the street peacefully saying, "We don't want you to go to war with Ukraine." You know (laughs) ? There's... A- a thing that I'm getting really annoyed about as well is the media just saying, "The Russians. The Russians." I get it. I get it. It's easy. I- I've said it as well. It makes sense. But sometimes you have to put it into context, you know? You, you're talking... I saw a map earlier. I think there's, like... There's, like, 20 different anti-war rallies happening this weekend in Russia, you know? Russians are very... Uh, I don't... I've never met a Russian that I haven't got on with. They're like... And I know that's just personal anecdote, whatever. But still, they're a good people, they're lovely people. Very cool, very good culture. The idea that they're all suddenly just gonna go, "Okay, yeah. Let..." Like, "Let's kill everybody in Ukraine." No, they're not. But I will say this. I think... I think there is more people that are in favor of the war than is maybe projected in Western media. You know, the Western media is obviously kind of... This united front you're seeing right now of like, "Oh, the, the Russians don't want this. The Russians don't want this." And it's like, yeah. A- a lot don't, but a lot either don't care or they do want it. There's a lot of pro-Putin... You know, and even if they're not pro-Putin, they're, like, Russian ultranationalists, you know, um, that do want this to happen. So, yeah. There, there is, there is an element of that. Um, but it's the same with any war, you know? It's just, it's just nobody is... No one's a monolith, you know? But I, I, I don't know. I don't know any percentages. But I would just... I would definitely say there were probably hundreds of thousands of people in, in Russia, without a doubt, that, that are completely not, not for this. I saw, I saw a thing in Siberia earlier. Um, people just like, you know, pro-Ukraine, like, "Sorry that we're invading, our government's invading," or whatever, you know?

7. 36:41 – 50:35

   Social Media Coverage

   1. CWChris Williamson36:41

      This... I wanted to talk about the way that the press, the corporate media, social media, individuals have been putting this forward. 'Cause this is the first time that I've seen a conflict that's essentially being... That, like, the apocalypse is being livestreamed by TikTok.

   2. JHJake Hanrahan36:55

      Mm.

   3. CWChris Williamson36:55

      And, um... I, I mean, I, I've seen from your stuff, Popular Front, I've seen TikToks of how to destroy and drive tanks separate-

   4. JHJake Hanrahan37:05

      Yeah, how to drive them if you catch one. Yeah. (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson37:07

      Separate from them. Yeah. Like, there's some girl in a pair of Balenciagas and a cool Adidas pair of tracky bottoms-

   6. JHJake Hanrahan37:12

      Mm.

   7. CWChris Williamson37:12

      ... in there going, "So, you flick these switches on, and then you press this button, and then you dr-" And then sh- there's her driving along in a tank.

   8. JHJake Hanrahan37:19

      Yeah. Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson37:20

      Uh, so what would you say ... Have you seen anything that's particularly, uh, unrepresentative or egregious with regards to corporate media in terms of what they've been saying from on the ground? Because I've got a lot of friends, I- I- I spend a good bit of time in Texas at the moment, right? Texas is very skeptical, uh, around pretty much everything that comes out of, at least where I am, uh, around corporate media.

   10. JHJake Hanrahan37:40

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson37:40

       There's a lot of people that are saying, "Something doesn't seem to add up with what we're seeing. I'm not convinced that what's happening on the ground is actually what's going on here." And I think that the implied subtext there is that, "I don't think that the invasion is as bad," or whatever, and it's being blown up.

   12. JHJake Hanrahan37:57

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson37:58

       I think generally what this shows is just a complete distrust, like an absolute 100% distrust for whatever you see, whether it's, um, a carryover from the last few years around, uh, Hunter Biden's laptop story kind of being pushed down, that was to do with Ukraine. Trump is a Russian agent in 2016, and then so on and so forth. So I'm wondering whether that has contributed a little bit. But certainly people just do not seem to be particularly convinced around what has been put forward by the press. So give me your thoughts on-

   14. JHJake Hanrahan38:30

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson38:30

       ... what we've seen so far and what's been good and what's been bad.

   16. JHJake Hanrahan38:34

       Uh, (laughs) America. I think America is its own beast. Um, I'm going to insult a lot of Americans here, but I- I don't care. I think the problem with Americans are they see themselves at the center of every story on Earth. "How can we make this about us?" So instead of seeing a child bombed and killed, they go, "How can I make this about me? Oh, um, I don't trust this. I don't think it's real." Well, the mother is crying and her kid is dead. So I don't really care if your brain worms (laughs) don't allow you to think this is real. And trust me, I have a lot of problems with legacy corporate media myself, having been through it and seen a lot of weird stuff. Nothing conspiracy, just like bad behavior, whatever. But generally, I think people are doing a pretty good job. You know, I have friends out there right now on the ground dodging bombs and bullets. A cameraman died today. He got struck, um, at Babi Yar, which is a Holocaust memorial, um, and Russia bombed right near there, uh, and they killed a cameraman. Um, so when people are like, "I don't believe it," I just think, "Fuck you." You know, like, I ... Because my friends are there right now (laughs) , you know what I mean? It's very real. Um, is, does someone have an agenda? Sure. Everybody on Earth does. Not interested. For me, I'm interested in the people on the ground, you know what I mean? I've, I've been getting equal hate, again, from Americans. There was some weird thread today where someone was like, "Don't trust Jake Hanrahan's reporting because of..." And it was all just like weird American radical politics, centrist, central, um, selfishness. You know, they were all like, "I think this, how can I make this about me?" And it's, it's actually repulsive. You know, I was talking to a friend today and we were speaking about it, and we were calling it like a timeline support. You know, like, people, "Oh, how can I make this about me? Well, I'll tweet something about this." It, it's been the same with every war. It was exactly the same in Syria. Um, and as well in Syria, Syria was exactly the same, like, and Ukraine is in terms of normal people, you know, in Adidas tracksuits doing the same things. I've seen Syrians before this telling people how to use tanks and armored vehicles. It was on Instagram before because TikTok didn't exist. Um, the- the, um, the Arab Spring was, was primarily, um, kind of broadcast via Twitter when Twitter was, like, really useful, because, um, a lot of their Internet was shut down by the dictators in their countries. And they went to Twitter and they found ways to bypass the, the ban, and they just, they're just citizens putting everything out on Twitter. So really, the Arab Spring was probably like the first real kind of social media war in that sense. Um, but yeah, this, this whole like, "Oh, I don't trust this, I don't trust that," I don't trust a lot of things as well. But you- you're telling me that you ... Basically, you know, like if I told you a secret right now, like, it wouldn't be kept. You know, like you can't keep a secret between three people, and it must, it might be the most basic thing. Are you telling me hundreds of thousands of people from media organizations all over the world are in on this, doing something fake, and not one of them has exposed it? You know, it's nonsense. Yeah, there's a big problem, like, like you said, Hunter Biden's laptop, because, like, liberal media was just as bad as the conservative media for covering their own ass. "We just want to project..." American media is its own beast. You know, I don't think it represents journalism very well at all. But that was because of political infighting and, "We must be the ones that this, that, and the other." It's not because of some conspiratorial thing. It's just, it's just selfishness at every degree. So I- I think they're all a part of the same thing. I mean, you're seeing the same on the other side. Fox News are acting like this isn't a big deal. They're scum, you know. There are children dying. To act like this is just fake, and I just find it so awful. And again, it all comes down to American exceptionalism, self-centered, "How can we make this about us?" Or, "Oh, we, we don't trust this because of that." No one in Ukraine cares if you lot believe it. (laughs) You know what I mean? Like, they're dying, they're fighting. So ... And it's not all Americans, definitely not. It's just that American media bubble. Like, most Americans are completely normal and they're like, they, you know, they're fine. But I think that media bubble that's getting amplified unnecessarily is just actually sickening and selfish.

   17. CWChris Williamson42:27

       How are people in Ukraine? A, a lot of TikTok, you mentioned Telegram a bunch.

   18. JHJake Hanrahan42:32

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson42:32

       Is that one of the primary modes of communication?

   20. JHJake Hanrahan42:35

       Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Telegram is one of the primary ones, um, just because, I mean, there, there's less censorship on it, you know. I mean, Jesus, I mean, my, my platform, Popular Front, we've got like, I think, 400,000 followers now, and we get censored all the time. You know, we, I mean, when we were reporting on ISIS, we have to put an exclamation mark instead of I. So like, I-

   21. CWChris Williamson42:54

       (laughs)

   22. JHJake Hanrahan42:55

       ... S, exclamation mark, X.

   23. CWChris Williamson42:56

       But that shows, I mean, the, the stupid thing about that-

   24. JHJake Hanrahan42:58

       Not figured out, you know.

   25. CWChris Williamson42:59

       It's so rudimentary. Like, it's such a dumb solution.

   26. JHJake Hanrahan43:04

       It's disgusting you have to do it as well.

   27. CWChris Williamson43:05

       What, have you guys thought about starting up your own Telegram channel so that you can communicate stuff?

   28. JHJake Hanrahan43:11

       We ha- (sighs) We have it, we have one just in case, but essentially the main broadco- ... Everyone's on Instagram, not everybody is on Telegram. You know what I mean? And to be fair, um, I actually spoke to someone at Instagram a while ago. They kind of hit me up and were like, "We-... yeah, you've been unfairly banned. There was reasons, there was a certain nationality didn't like the reporting. You know, someone working there decided we shouldn't show the plight of the Kurdish people, so we got, we got a lot of bans. And they kind of told me like, "Look, I've kind of put a thing on your account. It's going to be okay now." And to be fair, it's been good now, like we haven't been banned, you know, it's okay.

   29. CWChris Williamson43:40

       Wow.

   30. JHJake Hanrahan43:41

       Yeah, yeah. So it really comes down to that. We have been shadow banned, um, which, you know, it's very funny. Instagram say isn't true. I think there was an investigation recently that showed it was. There are different rules for verified accounts, stuff like that. Um, and yeah, so there, there's all that. There's censorship, you know, but, but anyway, t- I don't want to make it about me. (laughs) But I'm t- I'm doing the American thing now. But to go back to your point, yeah, Ukrainians are using Telegram, Instagram, Twitter, you know, mostly t- uh, Telegram I think though. Um, Instagram a lot now as well. Instagram's like a big one. Um, luckily Facebook are not censoring them too much.
8. 50:35 – 56:49

   Opinionated Soldiers

   1. CWChris Williamson50:35

      with war, that, um, I, I think maybe because thinking about World War I and World War II, it was pretty apparent that most people that went to war backed the idea of what they were fighting for. You know, you didn't want this fascist totalitarian state...

   2. JHJake Hanrahan50:51

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson50:51

      ... to come and kill all of the Jews and try and turn it into the Thousand-Year Reich.

   4. JHJake Hanrahan50:56

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson50:56

      Um, but now you have much more transparency around information. You know, for the first time, well, maybe not for the first time ever. Again, this is like me stepping into your world, which has been going on for far longer than, like, the last week. But you have an ability for, um, infantry, army guys on the ground, to understand the geopolitical, uh, motivations and machinations of why something's happening.

   6. JHJake Hanrahan51:25

      Yes.

   7. CWChris Williamson51:26

      So you now actually have the ability for someone to ideologically be averse to something that their, uh, loyalty suggests that they're supposed to go and do.

   8. JHJake Hanrahan51:38

      Right. Why am I fighting? You know, before it was your commander said go there. What are you gonna do in World War I? Look at Twitter? No. (laughs) You know. Um, yeah, no, it's a great point. I think, I think as well, like, you've made a good point there because I'm talking at this from, like, I'm a nerd (laughs) . You know, like, I, I, I, like, I'm, I'm a reporter. I'm very focused on war and conflict, obviously. That's m- my, most of my career. But I'm also very interested in the very, like, minute detail. That's what we do on Popular Front. We try and go really, really detailed to bring out... make it make more sense to people. You know, sometimes people do that in a way that does the opposite, but we try and make... we're like, "No, we go into detail because then you understand things better." For example, you know, there's very specific details, like, uh, when I was with certain fighters that are like a guerrilla movement, I found out that a lot of the kids in the inner city urban guerrilla movements were carrying an extra pair of socks in their pocket. Why? Because they put it over their trainers because th- they're all masked up. So when the military are filming them, often they would line them all up afterwards and look at their trainers and be like, "Right, this guy, this guy, this guy." So people were carrying extra pairs of trainers, they're putting socks over their trainers. You know, very rudimentary, but very smart way of, like, hiding from, you know, f- from, from the military. So it's like, for me, I'm very focused, I know that. But you're exactly right. Like, most people, why should they? They don't have the time or they're not that interested in it. It's like, yeah, no, you're right. It's like, this idea that, oh, why, why are people surprised? Yeah, of course they're surprised, you know. Of course, because it's, it's more in focus now. Um, but yeah, it's, that's a great point. Yeah, it's like a lot of Russians... Obviously Russians are a very educated country as well. You know, uh, a lot of soldiers must just be like, "Jesus Christ." (laughs) You know, like, there is no way that, like, every Russian soldier is some kind of Putin loyalist. They're just, of course not, you know. The same way a lot of the militias that are now fighting for Ukraine are not government loyalists. You know, li- like I said earlier, there's an anti-fascist group. There's a group of anarchists that I actually filmed a documentary with a few years back. What they did in Ukraine was they'd go about, like, beating up Nazis because, like, you know, there's a Nazi street scene there. So the anarchists would go and just beat them up and stuff like that. Now, they're like, "Okay, there's a Russian threat. We're gonna, we're armed up, we're gonna fight." All these idiots on the internet are like, "Oh, well, so-called anarchists fighting for the government." They're like, "No, we're not fighting for the government. We're fighting for our right to exist." When that fight, when that threat is gone, then we'll go back to, like, working out how we can live in this environment. But right now they're aware. Some of them were actually, like, Russian dissidents that have been imprisoned in Russia and came to Ukraine. They're very aware of what's going to happen to them if Russia does take the whole country. So they're saying, "No, you know, we're fighting." Again, it comes down to this thing of some, like, absolute, like, political esoteric nerd on Twitter has an opinion. And it's like, you don't know what it's like out there. You know, these lads are just like... Uh, the, one of the lad, the anarchist lads, the day they invaded, I was like, like, "What are you doing?" He's like, "I've got a gun. I'm in a taxi. I'm going to enlist right now." Like, no, no, no question. You know? And he's like, "I'm not fighting for the state. I'm fighting for my people." For, for, for you know, like, I feel like that is in Britain. I don't like the state, I'm anti-monarchy, um, and I despise th- the, the Conservative Party. And I also don't like the others as well. But if a war came here, I'd think, well, if... I don't know if I would, I don't know if I'd be brave enough, but I think, well, am I gonna fight for the state or the Queen? No, I'm gonna fight for my neighbors' right to be safe. You know, and Britain is more than the government or the media, the, you know-

   9. CWChris Williamson54:50

      Well, that's, that's it, right? What- what... The state and the monarchy and your leadership and the flag, they're all just distillations of what it means to be a part of the country.

   10. JHJake Hanrahan55:00

       Right.

   11. CWChris Williamson55:00

       And it arises in different ways, right? Whether it be state, whether it be monarchy, whether it be nationalism. Uh, but yeah, I, I, I think that, that makes sense to me.

   12. JHJake Hanrahan55:11

       It's not hard to understand, right? I don't know why people find it so hard to understand. Like, people are, "Oh, what? There's anti-fascists fighting and there's also fascist battalions." It's like, yeah, they don't like each other. They just both have a threat coming to them for different reasons (laughs) . You know-

   13. CWChris Williamson55:24

       Yeah, I mean, they, they dislike the people trying to kill them more than the people that they're ideologically opposed to.

   14. JHJake Hanrahan55:28

       Right.... they can go, right, let's... The thing is that in war, a lot of realists really find their place in the world because they're smart and they go, "Right, put that on the break for a second. Here's the immediate threat." You know? If someone's coming at w- at you with a knife and then another guy is coming at you with the fists, you're probably going to want to take the guy with the knife out first. You know? Then, you deal with this lad with the, you know, whatever, because the guy with the knife is probably gonna kill you. (laughs) You know what I mean? So it's, it's like... Not, not to say that the, the, the fascist threat is not as dangerous, but it's dangerous in a different way. It's not as immediate right now. And, and it's also a lot smaller. (laughs) You're talking about like a whole country invading you versus a couple of thousand people. You know what I mean? Um, so yeah. It, it's... I don't find it hard to understand. Um, the same way that, you know, um, in my family, we have, we have people that are like Black, Black British, they call themselves. A racist would find that really hard to understand. And it's like, well, yeah, because you're a scumbag. (laughs) You're a racist. You know what I mean? It's like that's hard for you to understand, but there's a lot of people that it's obviously not hard to understand. It's not just your s- your flag. You know? You... Anarchists in Ukraine are not fighting for their flag. (laughs) You know? They don't even have a Ukrainian flag, they got an anarchist flag. They're fighting for their people, for their neighbor, and for their right to exist freely in the land that they were born and raised on, most of them. And I, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I'm sure a lot of people do. Who cares? You know? These people are under threat right now and people's kind of political take is not important to them, nor should they be.

9. 56:49 – 1:07:50

   The Next Few Weeks

   1. JHJake Hanrahan56:49

   2. CWChris Williamson56:49

      What should we expect, do you think, over the next few weeks?

   3. JHJake Hanrahan56:53

      Hm. Jesus, man. Uh, uh, every day is something crazy. Like, you know, like just before we came on, like I just said, I was just chatting to my pal there and he was like... Just heard a boom like right near to where we are, like in a hotel area. It's near an Ibis, you know, like a hotel. There is this ki-... Long gone is the, the era of like reporters being able to be like, "Oh, this hotel is the safe one." Like this? Them, them rules are gone. Um, I mean, they barely existed anyway. But not that... I mean, who cares if the, the reporter is not that important compared, um, to the people. But my point is like all, all... I think all, all bets are off sort of thing. You know? Um, right now, the Russians have, have control over like Chernobyl basically, or at least they're there. They're very close, and they did have it controlled for a while. Uh, today, they moved in close to what is I think Europe's largest nuclear power plant. Not that... I'm not saying we're going to get nukes. Nothing like that's gonna happen. But I'm just saying like accidental destruction of that infrastructure could be very bad for a lot of people. You know? I just think the, the... after the kind of shock effect of just that level of fighting is going to be really bad. They... I, I saw a video last night. It's what's called MLRS fire. It's like multiple launch rocket system. And it's just like... Like, you know, like constant barrage of rockets, completely indi- indiscriminate. Who knows what that's going to hit? You know what I mean? I mean, doing that kind of stuff in Chernobyl or around this, this plant, it's just so dangerous. I think we're gonna see serious, serious civilian casualties. I, I don't want to predict anything, but I think, I think right now, it's like, you know, I think 130, 136, I think the exact number is. But obviously, that's hard to exactly qualif- uh, quantify, but I think we're gonna see that triple, you know, without a doubt. If it carries on at this speed, we're gonna see that triple. I think there's peace talks tomorrow, you know, talk of a ceasefire. But generally, like the last ceasefire talks was last week, and it was Ju- Russia just used it as like a troop rotation, you know? Um, and they'll do the same. So I think, I think the West doesn't really... I think W- the West has had a real shock here. It's like finally, I think they now realize like, "Oh, Putin is not playing our game." Like, he hasn't been, you know? And, and, and I, I don't want to give any credit to Putin, but he... You know, he's been saying for a long time, like, "Oh, if NATO moves this way, then we will do something." And it's like now he has. I, I think that conversation is now actually irrelevant. Like I said, people are dying and there's a war on, and that's not gonna reverse. Um, but yeah. It's like, I don't know, I, I just think that this was a long time coming, really. But again, I was naive. Like I said, I didn't think it was gonna happen the way it did, but it was coming sort of thing. You know what I mean?

   4. CWChris Williamson59:28

      You do think Lviv's... Uh, sorry. Uh, Kiev is gonna fall?

   5. JHJake Hanrahan59:32

      Uh, yeah. I just can't see how it won't, you know. Unless there's a ceasefire agreement, uh, which I just think is not gonna happen. It just... They're, they're making real incursions. They're in the... like the oblast now, which is like a borough. You know what I mean? Kiev oblast is like the borough of Kiev. You know what I'm saying? So they're on the outskirts essentially of Kiev. They're not in the city center yet, but they're not far, you know. I think they're like five kilometers (laughs) in the... Well, less than that, you know. So they're not far away. Um, I, I just don't see why they would stop unless they just realize how bad that will be for them due to guerrilla conflict. But I don't know.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:00:10

      But they're going to go through that, and then what's next? What goes next after Kiev?

   7. JHJake Hanrahan1:00:15

      I know, right? Uh, who knows, you know? I mean, right now, if you look at the country, there is a pincer movement kind of forming. So they're like in the south, I think, Odesa... Forgive me if I'm getting these wrong, I've looked at so many maps. But they're in like Odesa, they're coming in from the east as well, over the Dnieper River in the north, um, and like arou- kind of surround... slowly coming around, you know, like a crescent.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:00:35

      Yup.

   9. JHJake Hanrahan1:00:35

      Um, and they're also... A bomb siren when... a bomb siren went off today in Lviv, which is very far west, you know. And, and Belarus is, is talking about they're gonna come from... There's a little breakaway region in Belarus called, uh... sorry, in Moldova called Transnistria, which is like some weird region that Russia controls and has done for, for a decade now, I think. Um, and they, they can stage troops from there, you know, to, to finish the pincer off, to make it whole. Uh, I'm no military strategist by any means at all, but just looking at the maps, it's like if that's even remotely accurate, they're gonna end up surrounded. You know, once they surround-

   10. CWChris Williamson1:01:10

       Well, there's not a lot of Ukraine left.

   11. JHJake Hanrahan1:01:13

       Right. There's not, there's not a lot of borders.

   12. CWChris Williamson1:01:14

       Not a lot of Ukraine left that's Ukraine.

   13. JHJake Hanrahan1:01:15

       Yeah, there's not a lot of border. Well, I mean, they... Ukrainians have control over most of the country still. But yeah, there's not a lot of borders left that are not having movements come in. However, when you see these maps, I should, I should say this as well. I'm kind of, kind of gonna go back on myself a little bit now. When you see these maps and it shows a pincer...... that's not, them lines are not, that's not how the lines are. (laughs) You know what I mean? There's not like, e- every inch is one troop, you know what I mean? There might be five miles with no troops. Like the other day, um, Russia tried to form a pincer movement, I think, around Kharkiv. And, you know, there was an area where th- there weren't enough troops there or for whatever reason, and the Ukrainians just blasted through, surrounded them, you know, and then they f- they came away 3-2. It's very fluid. It's kind of a misnomer to say front line, 'cause there's never really a line, you know what I'm saying? Um, it's not like trench-

   14. CWChris Williamson1:02:01

       It's not like trench warfare anymore, no. It's very spread out.

   15. JHJake Hanrahan1:02:04

       No, exactly. It's very spread out now, yeah. Like, for the last eight years in the east, or at least the last six years when it was more on a ceasefire, it was just trench warfare. Like, it was very weird, primitive, like World War II vibe, actually. It was very odd there. And yeah, like, every so often, they called it, like, a creeping movement. You know, they'd take a kilometer, you know, and then the kilometer would go. But now it's like, yeah, it's all spread out. It's like, it's like, you know, if you pour a bottle of water down, it just spreads out (laughs) everywhere, you know what I mean? And, and then if you wipe it, whatever, it goes back and forth. It's like that. It's, it's fluid. Um, but I just can't see that Putin's gonna... What's he... He's not gonna start this and lose face. I think that's the, the problem. It's like, he's not a guy that wants to lose face. He's like 70 this year. He's getting old. He wants his legacy. You know, and I think he's gonna get it in his mind whether, whether he has to, you know, just kill everybody or not. He said that, I think he said the other day, like, "What's the point of a world without Russia?" Or something kind of, you know, inferring that, like, I don't know, like, "We'll just wipe everybody out." I, I think Lavrov, his kind of second in command, was talking about nuclear stuff again the other day. Putin two weeks ago was in France saying, um, basically like, "If you dare trigger Article 5 of NATO..." Like, he mentioned... I can't remember the exact words so I don't wanna quote it, but he basically inferred like, "We will use a nuclear weapon." Whether they will or not, I don't know, but-

   16. CWChris Williamson1:03:17

       It was, it was something like, was it, uh, "Force and counterattack the likes of which the world has ever seen."

   17. JHJake Hanrahan1:03:23

       "The world has ever seen." Yeah, yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson1:03:24

       Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's very Trumpian, I guess, to say that, but-

   19. JHJake Hanrahan1:03:26

       Right, but it's Putin. (laughs)

   20. CWChris Williamson1:03:28

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, unfortunately. It's-

   21. JHJake Hanrahan1:03:30

       Who did it? (laughs) You know.

   22. CWChris Williamson1:03:31

       Exactly.

   23. JHJake Hanrahan1:03:31

       Yeah, it's, it's worrying actually. It is. I don't wanna, like, alarm anyone. I don't think... You know, I keep... A lot of friends I have around here, are like ringing me up like, "Is World War III out?" I say, "No, no, relax. It's not, it's, it's not that." Like, "Don't worry." (laughs) Like, "We're not gonna get bombed in, in like the Midlands or whatever." But there is, like, a genuine, I think, reason to pay a bit more attention now, 'cause it's like, okay, this could, this could spiral out of control quite quick. You know, Keir Starmer-

   24. CWChris Williamson1:03:53

       How would it spiral out of control?

   25. JHJake Hanrahan1:03:55

       That, well, yeah. Right. How? That's a good question because (laughs) nobody really knows. But for example, the other day Keir Starmer was kind of saying, "Oh, we're gonna talk about a no-fly zone." (sighs) Like, I, I really sympathize with Ukrainians, but if Britain starts implementing a no-fly zone, what are they gonna do? Shoot down a Russian jet? Great, then we're, then we're in war. You know what I'm saying? It's like, that's... No. Like, you know, I'm sorry, but no. Like, that's not a good idea. Um, not to say that, you know... What can you do? You know what I mean? You're just sort of rocking our place like that, so-

   26. CWChris Williamson1:04:26

       This is the... So, uh, Konstantin Kisin, who does trigonometry, is a Russian-Ukrainian by birth.

   27. JHJake Hanrahan1:04:32

       Mm.

   28. CWChris Williamson1:04:32

       And, uh, anyone that wants to get a good primer, um, who under- from somebody who understands the background of this, go and check that out. I'll link it in the show notes below. And, um, one of the things that he said was, you've got a world where people have been making, for a very, very long time, a lot of war with words.

Episode duration: 1:19:47