EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,491 words- 0:00 – 0:24
Intro
- DEDestiny
Progressives over the past, like, 10 or 20 years have done an absolutely amazing job at reaching out to minority groups and disaffected groups and making them feel like they have a voice. They've done an equally horrible job at kind of sh- on the prior dominant group, which is usually, like, white straight men. I think they've left them feeling, like, very disaffected. (wind blows)
- CWChris Williamson
How effective do you think cancellation is at silencing people?
- 0:24 – 9:16
Is Getting ‘Cancelled’ a Benefit?
- CWChris Williamson
I saw that Sneako just got another strike on his YouTube channel, lost his TikTok account, lost his Twitter, and he seems to not really see it as a concern. Andrew Tate, says that he's got even bigger since he left, and then SteveWillDoIt was at the NASDAQ announcement thing for Rumble as well. Do you think that it's cope to say you get bigger when you're canceled or is it legit?
- DEDestiny
Uh, it's huge cope. Um, I think canceling is really good at getting rid of people. It's not very good at getting rid of ideas though. So, you can get rid of the man but you're probably not gonna get rid of the underlying current of thought that elevated them to the position they were in before, and that's gonna still be there waiting for another person to kind of like take the reins on it.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. So they set a type of rhetoric that, um, creates a- an echo that other people can then fall into?
- DEDestiny
Kind of, yeah. Or like, um, have you ever heard of a concept called the Overton window?
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- DEDestiny
Um, a lot of people don't know this so they don't seem to understand this. The Overton window is discovered, it's not created. Um, politicians are trying to find where people are, and they can move them a little bit but it's not like politicians say, "This is the Overton window. This is how far right and left they are." It's really a big struggle for politicians trying to figure out, like, where are people and then where can I kind of like slot in myself so that I'm popular there. Um, so like for instance, Donald Trump didn't necessarily significantly move the Overton window in- in some direction, what, three dimensions or two dimensions or whatever. But, uh, more he identified, whether coincidentally or not, that's a whole other conversation, but he identified there was a whole group of voters that felt a certain way about something and he was able to tap into that. Um, when you've got people like Andrew Tate or Sneako that are getting really big, it's because there's a hunger for that type of thought. It's not like these guys are creating, like nobody had known about this until Tate came out here, it's that there are certain people that are hungry for that type of thought. So if you ban him, um, the banning is bad for that person. People will cope and say like, "Oh, you can't get canceled. Like, they got even bigger." Well, then why didn't they just delete all their socials before? Like there's a reason why people want to be on these platforms. Um, but there's still going to be that underlying current of thought and- and somebody's going to come by that's another red pill or- or MGTOW or whatever and- and take the reins on it, I think. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I think you're right. I think based on what I've seen, when you remove people from that ecosystem, their audience at best... The absolute best that you can hope for is it stays as big as it is now. But the discovery medium is these platforms that have millions and billions of users, right?
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
If you're off YouTube, there is no more discoverability for you. If you're off Instagram and TikTok, how are people going to find you? You saw this with Alex Jones, right? Alex Jones had an- a country sized audience. He got removed from social media, but you know that unless he creates some incredibly smart referral scheme-
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... how are new people going to discover his message?
- DEDestiny
I mean, yeah, you're exactly right. Like, it- it's... Yeah. I- it's such an annoying thing to argue with people because it's such a massive cope otherwise, and it betrays everything we know about like how these platforms work. Like if I'm a platform and I'm buying talent, the reason why I'm buying talent to come to my platform is because I'm trying to bring their fan base over. You know? I want to be on a platform where people are there not because destiny's there, but because they're watching other people. If people are coming to a platform only for me, that means that that platform doesn't have anything else left like for me to- to grow from. You know? Like so Rumble is definitely growing a ton off of Andrew Tate, but I don't think Andrew Tate is going to grow a ton off of Rumble.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes, very interesting. Well, there has to be a critical mass where Rumble could acquire so much talent that it might actually start to move the needle. For instance, Spotify's acquisition of Cole Hodari and Rogan changed what people listened on. Maybe there's an argument to be made that people are going to watch some video content and then maybe a little bit more platform agnostic, but I would argue that the reason Spotify worked is most people already had it, Spotify was coming in with a huge amount of existing brand equity, and it's actually a genuinely better experience for listening to podcasts on too. So it was a superior product that already had equity coming in, as opposed to Rumble who are kind of holding onto the coattails of these big, uh, creators that they're bringing over, SteveWillDoIt-
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... Sneako, Tate.
- DEDestiny
Yeah, the books are still probably being written on how to do this effectively. Like nobody really knows 100% like, "How do I grow an alternative platform?" Um, there's a reason why... I don't know this off the top of my head, but I'm willing to bet that like Twitter, Facebook, these platforms are probably like 15 years old at this point, right? Um, I know Facebook is at least that old. Twitter's probably... I feel like I've seen tweets from 2008. Um, so like these are old platforms, and people have tried to start new platforms, buy a bunch of talent, and it still kind of falls through. So yeah, it's- it's very difficult to grow a new platform completely organically, unless you're literally offering like the whole package. Like you said, it's got to be a product that's good on its own that is like, "Why would I use this over something else?" It's got to have unique talent there that you can't find in other places. It's got to have some kind of discoverability or hook in areas on other parts of the internet that people are using. Like, um, there's a lot that has to go right. And man, the barrier to entry for stuff like that is probably getting higher and higher and higher every day, like pharmaceutical levels in terms of how much money you have to spend to get people over on these platforms. You know?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Well, I mean, TikTok, perfect example, right? I thought- I thought we'd reached saturation for the number of different channels that people would have, because this other stuff... I don't know, you hear about people that use Gab or Yik Yak. Do you remember Yik Yak? Did you ever see that?
- DEDestiny
I don't think I did, no.
- CWChris Williamson
So it was location-based announcement, kind of like Twitter, but it was all anonymous so you couldn't see who did it and it was all location based. So you could basically spread rumors about people that it was a Gossip Girl but on a thread and it was completely location based. So you would only see the stuff that was around you.
- DEDestiny
Oh, I'm not gonna- I'm not gonna remember this but, um, I- I know what you're talking about kind of. There was another app called like Whisper or something. It wasn't called that, but it was similar. Like basically when you'd open the app, there's like 20 things but it's all said by people locally in your area and you don't know who it is, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- DEDestiny
Kinda, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, yeah. My point being that when I saw those I was like, "Oh yeah, well this will be a cool thing for maybe a subculture or maybe it'll try to get off the ground but probably fail." TikTok actually managed to get into the market and hold onto it because it had a- a superior product to everything else that was online. Without that, and I- I'm not convinced that Rumble quite has that yet.
- DEDestiny
Yeah. Yeah, and I mean, there's gonna be companies that, um... I, I'm sure people are gonna be doing case studies on, like, how they mess something up because, like, um, w- w- we're on Skype right now, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- DEDestiny
What a letdown that somehow Zoom was able to come out of nowhere and become, like, a massive company. Like, whoever was the product manager at Skype dropped the ball on that harder than almost any other company in history.
- CWChris Williamson
Insane.
- DEDestiny
Um, or what if you were the person that ran Vine and you're like, "Okay, well obviously short form content like this doesn't work on the internet mobile app, so it's time to leave," and now, like, 10 years later you've got, like, TikTok and it's like, oh my God. Like, is that, like... This is, like, a guy, the proverbial, like, 10,000 Bitcoin holder on an old hard drive they got-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DEDestiny
... thrown in a dumpster somewhere is like, what Vine was. You, like, messed it up somehow. It's like, yeah. So, uh, you know, it... I, I'm sure that, like, I, I bet the ultimate answer, if I was God and I could come down and figure out everything, I bet that there's, like, 40% is, like, all of this, like, you've got to have the right talent, the right allocation of resources, the right product, blah, blah, blah. And I, I'm willing to bet that, like, 50%, 60% can just be, like, right place, right time. Like, a lot of it might just be down to luck. Like, a certain deal getting signed, a certain thing going viral on the internet that slowly starts to propagate more users to your platform, et cetera. Like, there's, there's so many variables when it comes to internet stuff.
- 9:16 – 18:51
What the Manosphere gets Right and Wrong
- DEDestiny
like, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
What are your thoughts on the manosphere at the moment? What do you think it gets right and wrong?
- DEDestiny
Um, I, I will say very carefully because the manosphere is a very broad sphere and will incorporate everything from people thinking that, like, women are actual demons that are meant to be, like, used and abused and manipulated to further yourself in life all the way to this other end where it's like, "You know, um, women act a certain way, men act a certain way. It's good to be aware of this so that you can make yourself and the people around you happy and more successful." So, let me caveat by that. Um, broadly speaking, I, I think that, um... I think that progressives over the past, like, 10 or 20 years have done an absolutely amazing job at reaching out to minority groups and disaffected groups and making them feel like they have a voice. Uh, we have awesome representation in media, even if some of it's a little cringe sometimes. Uh, you know, we're debating things like trans sports when 15 or 20 years ago the only trans person you'd ever seen on TV was on Jerry Springer or Maury. Um, we have, like, uh, r- you know, different races of people i- in different areas. The visibility is awesome. They've done a really good job at that. They've done an equally horrible job at kind of shitting on the prior dominant group, which is usually, like, white straight men, um, and they, I think they've left them feeling, like, very disaffected. Um, it's kind of sad. It seems to be part of, like, human nature that to advance one group, it seems like we almost, like, have to shit on another group. That's, like, a required part of the human experience. Um, but yeah, I think you've got kind of this group of, like, kind of these, like, white g- these, like, white dudes that are kind of, like, hanging out and, you know, they, they're, they have all this white privilege, but they're lonely. Some of them don't have very much money. Um, they're not doing too well in school. And no part of society seems interested in talking to them anymore. And I think that that kind of opened up this opportunity for... Initially it was, like, the Ben Shapiros or, like, the Jordan Petersons especially or the Joe Rogans who kind of talk to these people, and now that whole section has kind of exploded out into, like, the manosphere where you've got all these people willing to kind of give advice or talk to these, basically these kind of, like, disaffected lonely white dudes that feel like no one... Or not even just white dudes, but disaffected lonely men that feel like, um, society kind of doesn't want to talk to them anymore because they're toxic or they're horrible or they're abusers or they're rapists or, you know.
- CWChris Williamson
It's an interesting blend of cultural and structural problems. Uh, this guy on the show called Richard Reeves-
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... he's written a book called Of Boys And Men, and it looks at e- all of the conversations that you will be familiar with about evolutionary psychology and around the sort of the cultural interpretation of what it means to be a man today and how that plays out in, in the broader culture. But he came at it from a completely structural perspective, and he was saying things like, "In order for a male to have the same level of impulse control as a 10-year-old girl, he needs to be 24." There's behavioral genetic studies, Catherine Page Harden, who's out here in Austin and who's also from the left, which is interesting as somebody that does behavioral genetics 'cause that's typically not. Uh, she released this study looking at impulse control.
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Impulse control of a 10-year-old girl is the same as a 24-year-old man. It's wild. My point being that there are, um, structural issues that need to be looked at. But yes-
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... as long as you are unable to have a conversation like this publicly without being...... that being an assumption that it's a zero-sum game, and gains for one-
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... are the loss of the other.
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, a- another thing to consider, I've been talking about this a lot as well, intrasexual competition is significantly more prevalent than intersexual competition.
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Almost all competition is within your own sex, not between the sexes. Men compete with men and women compete with women, and yet we've somehow been convinced that we are each other's enemies rather than compatriots.
- DEDestiny
Yeah, for sure. There's a lot of weird stuff that goes on with the way that everything is framed these days. Um, the... Something that you said, the, the problem is that, like, there, you can go so deep on so many of these conversations but we can't even get any of these conversations off the ground. Like, even starting some of these conversations basically makes you, like, public enemy number one and then you're just kind of, like, completely shot down. Um, so w- it seems like over the past five or 10 years we've made, like, zero progress on any of these things. And there is kind of, like, a... There's kind of, like, an orthodoxy of thought right now for certain things. Um, I had a school administrator email me one time, because I'd been digging into, like, school-related stuff and how it seemed like it was kind of moving pretty far in one direction. And, um, I don't know if you're familiar with this but right now in the United States women, um, and men, there's like a 60/40 divide in schools right now, where women are 60% of the, of the new graduates and, and men are 40%. That's unbelievably tipped on the other side of where it was before. And then, um, you, you mentioned structural problems. Something interesting too is I think during the COVID-19 period, um, I think men were more likely to have to drop out of school to work to support their families than women were, so it, like, grew the divide even more. Uh, but this school administrator emailed me and he's like, "The idea that you could even broach that topic, breach that topic and have that conversation," like maybe we need, like, affirmative action for men in schools or maybe we need to start looking at that. That's, like, an inconceivable conversation. You can never even begin to have it. So yeah, we're definitely at an awkward point right now where there's a lot of important conversations that need to be had, but the mainstream and progressives won't have it, so then as a result only people on the very far right will have it. And I'll agree with the left that, like, a lot of the conversations happening on the far right are really dog shit, but they have nobody to blame but themselves because they're not willing to engage in the conversation, so what do you expect?
- CWChris Williamson
What's the alternative?
- DEDestiny
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I always say that. That's a good question when it comes to, like, Jordan Peterson or Joe Rogan. People are like, "These are horrible male role models." It's like, "I kind of agree to some extent. What's your alternative?" You have nothing. You have nobody. You don't even want to talk to these people because you think that, um, like, you think that men are fine and they don't need any help for anything and they've been the patriarchy and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, damn, I remember learning about the patriarchy at, like, five or 10 years ago and back then when we talked about the patriarchy we talked about how the patriarchy was oppressive to men and to women. Why does it only seem to negatively affect women now. Right? Like, I don't understand how... Uh, it feels like all the old stuff we talked about doesn't matter anymore and now it's just this hyper-fixation on moving, um, I hate using words like "woke" but, like, moving in that direction as much as possible. And then, yeah, it's not surprising that you've got only far right figures or, or right-leaning figures at least willing to talk to the, the disaffected male group.
- CWChris Williamson
That's a good way to frame it that I hadn't thought about before, the fact that by not bothering to engage with this you open up the floor inevitably for only one side to dominate.
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
I don't think that that's particularly good in any situation.
- DEDestiny
Correct.
- CWChris Williamson
It should, uh, you should have multiple inputs. But if you don't, then you're going to have it completely besieged by one. So on the point of the dropout of men, this is from my newsletter from last week. Uh, "In the span of just a few decades, girls and women have not only caught up with boys and men in the classroom, they've blown right past them. Half a century ago the landmark Title IX law was passed to promote gender equality in higher education. At the time there was a gap of 13 percentage points in the proportion of bachelor's degrees going to men compared with women. Today, the gender gap is a little wider, 15 percentage points as of 2019, but the other way round. For every three female college students, there are only about two men. The trend worsened during the pandemic. College enrollment as a whole declined in 2020 but that decline was seven times greater for male than for female students."
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Fucking wild.
- DEDestiny
In some ways that's awesome. Like, we got more women in school, we got them educated. That's so cool. It wasn't like a... A lot of people are talking about, like, biologically, like, women are stupid, they can't do blah, blah, blah. And there was a lot of research on it that's like, no, that's not true. Women are actually in some ways better at school than men because of the temperament differences between men and women and who's able to sit in a classroom and focus, whatever. Which is cool, but we have to be able to, to maintain, like, focus. Like, the focus wasn't on making women dominate men, it was making sure that we had some parity in society that we were able to kind of like... That, that both sides had the opportunity to explore, expand and succeed in school as much as possible. And if it feels like one group is being left behind, even if that group is somebody that previously was, like, a major power holder, we should be able to have the conversation like, "Okay, well what can we do to bring men back into the classroom?" But, man, even just saying those words, it's like I can already imagine, like, people freaking out. Like, "What do you mean men... men make up 85% of CEOs and men are earning, outearning women still, you know, 92% to 100%" blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like okay, well, you know, fuck, I guess. You know, if we're gonna, if we're gonna go, uh, if we're gonna go to the extremes and then that's where you're gonna draw your data from, then I guess we just can't further the conversation at all, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
There's an argument to be made that it's all well and good talking about how many CEOs are men but this doesn't really help the group of poverty stricken, drug addled, incarcerated, suicidal men at the bottom.
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
You get men at both ends of the scale. I also agree. I've, I've come to believe that women do better than... Uh, females do better than males in school.
- 18:51 – 29:29
Is the Red Pill Movement a Net-Positive?
- CWChris Williamson
into the manosphere a little bit more, do you think that the red pill movement is a net good for the world?
- DEDestiny
Man, I don't really know. It's hard to say. Like, (sighs) if I get my hands on some of these guys and we start talking, their messages are usually pretty good, but then when I'm not there and I listen to them talk, I kind of wonder sometimes. It's hard because, like, sometimes I feel like when somebody's there to hold them a little bit more accountable... And I'll say the same for me too. Like, this is why I, I learned this, um... A random side story. There's a horrible geeky game. Have you ever heard of a game called Eve Online? (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. It's the one where you make massive-
- DEDestiny
Spaceships, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... starships and drive around and stuff.
- DEDestiny
Um, I learned a lot about, like, um, leadership structures and managing people or whatever through that game, which is really funny. But something that I learned was that any time there was an argument for a particular idea, it is essential to have a person on each side of that argument, because you always need to be holding yourself accountable. And if you've got everybody on one side, you can run off in a way where you've got a lot of blind spots and you just start to miss everything, where, um, like, "Oh, well, we should have thought of this, we should have thought of that." So, any time... Even if I, like, as a leader of my little, uh, game corporation, even if I felt strongly about like, "We should do this thing," I would always make sure that there was another guy appointed to, like, tell me, like, "This is why we shouldn't do it." And even if I decided to, at least I knew, like, "Well, these are the drawbacks to why we, um, shouldn't do this particular thing." I feel like with, um, with a lot of online political talk, with a lot of the manosphere guys, or with me, it's good to have two voices there, or like a moderating voice. You don't have to agree with everything I say, but I, I don't know how much you listen to some of these conversations. So, like, when we start getting into, like, terms or vernacular like the cock carousel or the thousand yard or the thousand cock stare, like weird shit like this.
- CWChris Williamson
What's the (laughs) , what's the thousand cock carousel?
- DEDestiny
Like, for women that have too much sex or, like, the cock carousel is women will fuck throughout their 20s and then they settle down with some poor schmuck in their 30s after they've fucked their way through-
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- DEDestiny
... 50 million people, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Like, when you start to get this seriously, I think, I feel like you need somebody to ground you a little bit more because the conversations start to get insanely one-sided and you're not accurately representing, like, what's truly going on in a lot of these, um, interactions. So, yeah. So it's hard to say. Like, when I'm talking to a lot of the red pill guys, if I get on their shows and I talk, their messages are, in my opinion, usually resoundingly positive. They're talking about things like self-improvement, they're talking about things like wealth and girls should be a byproduct of the improvements that you make in your life. They're not the goal. It's just something that will occur if you make yourself successful. Um, you know, they... It's usually overwhelmingly positive messages that usually tie into what I would consider to be the positive aspects of masculinity. But it feels like sometimes if I'm not there or if I'm listening in the background and there's other stuff going on, it starts to get, like, very toxic, like, very quickly. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
What do you mean by toxic?
- DEDestiny
Um, like the, the idea that like, um, women are like... Different types of women are there to be churned and burned, that women are like kind of like very subservient to men and very, like, inferior in a lot of different ways, that, um, th- the, the value of women is tied in almost completely to like the amount of sex they can give you or how they look and that like, um, women that pursue things like going to college or like furthering themselves are like masculinizing themselves in a really negative way. Um, yeah, I think these kinds of ideas get just... The view of women in general, it, it feels... And I understand to some extent sex is kind of like a competition in a way, but when you start to view all of life that way, kind of like what you said at the beginning where it's like men versus women, um, like I think that you should probably view women as like your partners through life and not like these adversaries that you're trying to trick into fucking you constantly. It'll probably give you a better outlook, I think.
- CWChris Williamson
Dude, you've nailed it. It's the adversarial relationship, I think, and this zero sum game.
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
The, the presumption seems to be if a man sleeps with you, it is your loss-
- DEDestiny
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... and his gain.
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
I mean, (laughs) it's just... Let's just use that as a starting point. That doesn't seem to me... I've met about a million people in my life and about half of, half of them were women, right? On the front door of nightclubs, working. So-
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... I've seen people at their most unencumbered between the hours of 10:00 PM and three in the morning. Uh, for the most part, they get on absolutely fine. I don't think that they're trying to fuck each other over.
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
My experience of human nature is that almost everybody is pretty kind and gentle and yeah, there's some assholes out there, but for the most part everybody's pretty sweet.
- DEDestiny
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
One thing that's interesting, y- you mentioned about the fact that a lot of the sort of red pill advice focuses on self-improvement. It always seems to have an undertone or an undercurrent of that self-improvement, even if it's just for you, still being in service of getting girls eventually.
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
That the best way to get a girl is to focus on yourself. This focus on yourself is just a smokescreen to hide the real goal of still being reliant on validation from girls.
- DEDestiny
Yeah. That, it's, it's very funny too because the more toxic you get into that sphere, nothing is more funny to me than like a group of guys that are talking about how fucking worthless women are and they're these sluts and whores and blah, blah, blah, but, like, at the end of the day, like, how do they signal that they're like top shit? It's 'cause they've got like really hot girls next to them. Like, nothing is more funny to me than seeing that like you need that validation so much that women are c-... Like, at one end they're like these incredibly adversarial things to be conquered, but then in the other end they give you more va-... Like, a dude walking in with like a $20,000 watch and like a $50,000 suit doesn't look as good as the guy walking in with the four hot girls. 'Cause if he's got four different hot women that are validating him, that guy must be the coolest dude in the world. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
Pre-selection, yeah.
- DEDestiny
Yeah, exactly. So it's like it's a very interesting world to, to see the, the... Sometimes the more... I remember listening to this one, it was this really famous old like incel speech that this guy spends like all this time like, "These sluts are coming into our world now and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And then like in the next part of the speech he's like, "I'm gonna show you guys how to get two or three of these girls at the same fucking time." And it was so funny that while he's simultaneously talking about how fucking horrible and slutty these women are, he's gonna show you how cool you are by getting you a lot of these girls 'cause that's ultimately where the validation comes from. And that's very funny to me.
- 29:29 – 37:04
What Would a Third-Wave Manosphere Look Like?
- CWChris Williamson
of a third wave manosphere, right?
- DEDestiny
(laughs) Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So I think that-
- DEDestiny
The purple pill?
- CWChris Williamson
I think that first wave manosphere was pickup artistry. It was Neil Strauss, it was the game, it was mystery, it was negging and like neuro-linguistic programming and can openers and all that stuff. And then me too happened. That was not going to survive me too.
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Maybe it wouldn't have survived in any case, but me too sort of hurried the onset of that. So you needed to sanitize the advice that was being given to men, especially around dating. It couldn't be as transactional, it couldn't be as aggressive.
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, and then out the other side of that, now you have, instead of it being pickup and g- game, it's high value man, it's alpha beta, it's, uh, talking about evolutionary psychology more so. It's discussing markets, sexual market value and stuff like that. I still think that the fundamental issue that it has is that it sees men and women as adversaries.
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
I think that you need to have a version of this where you can have collaboration, where you can pedestalize men as fathers, where you can pedestalize f- women as mothers. Like, one of the biggest contradictions that you see is monogamy is something which is good, at least i- in society overall...... because it is a sexual rep- re- redistribution strategy that helps men at the bottom to get partners. It allows more societal stability, it encourages conservative and traditional values amongst women, which is something which also seems to be upheld. But in the same sentence, you're looking to run through as many women as you can. That doesn't seem to really marry those two things together and again, the man's, uh, win is the woman's loss.
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And to me, that doesn't seem like a very collaborative way, uh, and not a positive sum way, abundant way to, uh, frame this. So, I'm just thinking about what a third wave manosphere would look like. How would you be able to advise men and have this, I understand that there's a sexiness to certainty-
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... that comes with a lot of the messaging. Okay, so what would a third wave manosphere look like?
- DEDestiny
Yeah, I guess, it's like, I wish that people... I, I think that, and this is what I always heard with the red pill guys, a lot of the descriptions they make, a lot of the observations they make about how things work is usually pretty true, and I think that's how people hook in initially. Because they are describing real things, sometimes in stark contrast to what, like, the left is gonna say. Like, the left will say things like, "Oh, like, you know, no matter how a woman looks, um, you know, we should still love her." Or, like, "Oh, like, no matter how much money a man earns, like, we all love men no matter what the same way," or, like, "That's not important," like, "that's shallow." But, like, if you go into the real world, obviously people are making decisions relating to stuff like this all the time, so you immediately discount anything they're gonna say. If you're gonna lie to me or you're gonna blow smoke up my ass, I'm gonna ignore you immediately. And then, you go to the red pill guys and they're like, "Well, you know, money is pretty important to women and, and the security you can provide and, and, you know, for men, like, they do like younger pretty women." It's like, "Okay, cool. That's cool." Um, and then you get into their, you know, kind of world, and then they're telling you, "Yeah, women like security, um, because they're backstabbing, conniving, fucking sluts that are only looking to take care of their progeny and their offspring and they'll leave you in a second if they find a more successful man, so you need to fuck her and make sure that she stays loyal to you." And it's like, "Fuck! Holy shit! Jesus!" Um, the, the descriptions will be accurate but then, like, the analysis past the descriptions gets so negative and it's like, Jesus. Like, it would be nice if you could bundle up, like, you, you have your observations, but then you kind of find ways to, to make these more understandable. So like, uh, like, here's something that I consider, right? People will say things like, "Women are drawn towards success because they like money and they like security and they wanna provide for their children," and that's probably partially true. I'm sure there's, like, some extent of that is true. But I'm also sure that the types of people that become successful are also probably types of people that are pretty attractive. If you've made it really far in some business or some industry, you probably have a lot of traits that aren't just good for that industry, they're probably good for people too, right? Like, I hope... I do decently as a streamer and YouTuber, I hope that I also can do decently in conversations. I can, like, be pretty entertaining in real life. I can have, you know, like, good experiences with people, and there's gonna be, like, a lot of crossover between, like, what makes a person really successful versus what also makes a person, like, a cooler, funner, awesome person to hang around. Um, and I think that, like, trying to view things more realistically through that lens rather than this, like, hyper-bastardized, hyper-obsessive need to use, like, evo psych to explain every facet of human interaction. Um, I, I just, I feel like the former is so much better than the latter. It is healthier and more, like you said, more collaborative. Maybe it puts us all kind of on this path where it's like, okay, how can we improve all of ourselves rather than where it feels like we're in Survivor, trying to fuck over the other party as much as possible while still making out as well as we can?
- CWChris Williamson
An interesting question that I would ask any of the guys in the red pill world is, do you think that you need to educate women about how to be better collaborative partners with men on average, as well as men? And it seems to me that you do. It seems to me that books like Mate by Tucker Max and Geoffrey Miller, if you've been familiar with that. So, they basically did this about 10 years ago and they, Geoffrey Miller is one of the fathers of evolutionary psychology. He's done many of the seminal studies that people refer to when they're talking about this-
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... dating and gender dynamics and the mating system. They wrote a book. This book would be amazing for every woman to read as well. All women should read that book.
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
If you want to make the dating market a better place for everybody overall, you need to bring women along too.
- DEDestiny
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And it's a very specific type of woman that is going to sit down... I mean, Kevin Samuels, you know, as, as an example. It's a very specific type of woman that would have taken that rhetoric that he was putting forward and go, "Yeah, actually, that's, that's what I, that's what I want to hear." That's not to say that he didn't have an impact on some women that listened, but it's a, a, quite an extreme way to go about it that I can imagine will raise more hackles than it convinces people gently.
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I definitely agree. Uh, kind of on that same train of thought, and I don't know, I might just miss it. Are there any red pill people that talk about relationships at all? Because I feel like they only talk about, like, getting the girl initially. I don't know if I've ever heard a red pill person talk about, like, "These are the things you need to do to maintain healthy, strong relationships." (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Have you seen... There's a, a subreddit called Married Red Pill?
- DEDestiny
No, I haven't seen it at all, no.
- CWChris Williamson
Married Red Pill is applying eves psych-
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... red pill dynamics to sustaining a long-term relationship. Uh, so yeah, kind of.
- DEDestiny
Okay.
- 37:04 – 42:07
The Current Epidemic of Male Loneliness
- DEDestiny
- CWChris Williamson
Consider as well that men have got a huge loneliness problem at the moment. So in the UK, two out of five men have no friends at all.
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And I worry that some of the rhetoric sees all men as either threats or enemies rather than friends or companions. Like, you need to be able to see other men, not just the ones that can help you further your body count this week or bank balance next month, as people that you can collaborate with.
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm. I, that's, uh, yeah, that's another thing too that I talk about a lot, or that I've talked about a lot, that men are, we, we kinda suck at friendships compared to women. Um, I think that women are, uh ... Fuck, I wanna say last study I saw, I think it was, like, of all the men that are single, I think it was, like, 24% of them are okay with being single forever. But I think for women, it's, that number is, like, 37 or 38%. It's, like, almost, um, like, 15 points higher. And, um ... Or, or maybe it was, like, 10 or 15 points higher, I don't really check.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, wow, I wouldn't have guessed that.
- DEDestiny
Um, I think that the, o- one of the reasons I think is because if you look at the way that men communicate with each other versus women communicate with each other, women friendships are very emotionally satisfying. There is a lot of gratification there between opening up and sharing close and intimate details with each other. And for male friendships, we don't do that much at all. And it seems like for men, kind of the only place you ever really get that, if you're comfortable with it, is from a woman, is through, like, a relationship, like, with a woman. Um, so I think that, like, having a bunch of men that have ... And I don't know if you've experienced this. Like, I've had, like, groups of friends where we're like, we're all guys and we talk to each other, where we'll actually, like, one dude, like, destroy his life (laughs) and we're just going, "Good luck, man." Like, y- you know, "It's on you," like, "I hope you can figure it out." But you don't really wanna, like, pull him aside and like, "Hey, we need to have, like, a deep talk about you're making some really bad decisions," whatever. Uh, whereas for, like, women friendships, like, they hold each other, like, emotionally accountable a lot more. Or I know there's been ... I, I guarantee you, like, every single stand-up comedian has had, like, this same skit where he's like, you know, a guy gets home and he talks to the other guys, he's like, "What'd you do?" He's like, "Went to work." "Anything fun?" "Nope." Like, "What'd you do after?" "Got a drink." He's like, "Okay, bye." And then, like, for women, the way they talk to you is like, "Oh, I went to work and I saw Sarah and we talked this and she told me about this and her kid," and blah, blah, blah. Like, the communication is way more, more better, more better. Um, but yeah, I think that, that fleshing out male friendships is probably a good thing too. We don't talk about that e- either, I think.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, it's seen as something that men should innately know about, I think. You should just be able to find friends-
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... as an adult. But I had, uh, this guy called Max Dickens on the show, and he told me this really sort of moving story. He'd, was getting to the stage where he was about to engage, uh, get married to his partner, so he proposes to her, and then after he's got engaged, he's going to get his suit fitted, his wedding suit, and he was with a female friend that he's known for ages. His female friend turned to him and said, uh, "So who's gonna be your best man?" And no one came to mind and he said, "Oh, I, I, I must just be being a l- a little bit confused or something. It'll, just give me, give me a few minutes and I'll be able to work it out." And he looked at his list of male friends and-
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... they were all people that he worked with, but didn't really know that well-
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... that he would feel a little bit strange if he asked them to be-
- DEDestiny
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... his best man.
- DEDestiny
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And he realized, "Holy shit, where have all of my male friends gone?"
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And this is something that's very common, that once men get into relationships, they absorb the friend group of the female-
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... and that becomes their new social circle, and that first off closes off the potential size of the social circle because they can't ever go and find new people to bring into their wife's friends group-
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... and also if they ever lose the wife, the friendship go, group goes away as well.
- DEDestiny
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So it makes for a, a very lonely existence and I think that, yeah, working out how men can be more collaborative in that way too is-
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... is pretty, pretty important.
- DEDestiny
Do you ever talk about work from home? (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
No, not much.
- 42:07 – 49:32
Tech is Hindering Male Progress
- DEDestiny
it's probably gonna take us another 20, 30, or 40, or 50 years to learn it, but I think something we're gonna learn is that there was a lot of natural friction that existed in life that made a lot of the payoffs way more fulfilling, and as we've gotten better with tech, we've gotten really good at removing the friction from fucking everything.
- CWChris Williamson
What, like-
- DEDestiny
But I think at the end ... What?
- CWChris Williamson
What, like?
- DEDestiny
Oh, like, um, like everything. So, uh, uh, yeah, I'm sure you've read books before, right? Like, there is a feeling, even for fictional books, I'm not just talking cinema, even for a fictional book. Maybe people here have, like, read at least, like, Harry Potter, right? There is a feeling to, like, turning the last page in a book and closing it that will never be matched by scrolling memes on TikTok or Reddit for, like, 12 hours. But it's so easy to scroll for memes that, like-Maybe let's just do that, let's do that all day every day. Like, if you look at your screen time on your phone, you'll, like, throw up, like four, five, six, seven, eight hours a day on your screen staring at your phone scrolling through memes. And you don't remember any of these, there's like no fulfilling experience there ever. But um, the friction is like not there at all, like I just- I just pick up my phone and I push and I hit the happy button over and over and over again. Um, the idea behind like, uh, meeting people even, like where do you meet most of your friends and everything in life? Like, people wouldn't expect it, like okay, well we choose our friends, we do choice, freedom and blah blah blah. No, no, no, no, no. It's in the areas that you're the most restricted. You meet a lot of friends and dating partners and everything in school where you're forced to socialize with people, or in the work environment where you're forced to be around people, or in these places where you're like you're thrown together with 20 or 30 other kids and you have to like socialize with them. And usually that's like an overwhelmingly positive thing, mo- 99% of people come out with at least one friend, or like friend groups or whatever. Um, I mean (laughs) without getting too controversial, did you follow like the Robinhood, GameStop, all that?
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- DEDestiny
Do you... how do you feel about that?
- CWChris Williamson
What do you mean?
- DEDestiny
Um, well-
- CWChris Williamson
A group of people just LARPing their way to potential financial ruin or loads of chicken tendies?
- DEDestiny
Um, okay, cool. Okay, I think we're on the same page then. Yeah. Um, okay, (laughs) because some people really champion that as like the little dog story. But um, I think one thing that we learned when talking about friction is um, without getting too complicated in the finance thing, but there is this idea that you have apps now that allow you to buy and sell stocks for free, um, and it's so cool and it's so gratifying and it's gamified and you download these apps and you can do it. And now you've got a lot of these people that are buying and selling stocks that have no idea what they're lo- and they're losing all their money on it. And it's like, maybe there should be like a little fee attached to a trade so that you have to think at least a little bit before you push that button to buy or sell a stock. Um, I guess-
- CWChris Williamson
It's not, it's not trading, it's gambling.
- DEDestiny
Yeah, of course, yeah, that's true. Um, but yeah, I just, I think there, there, it feels like there are so many areas in life where having that little bit of friction is good. You should work a little bit to do something because it does something to the human brain, it gives you a more satisfying and fulfilling experience. And left to their own devices, humans will, you know, inject fucking heroin into their minds and push a button and stare at something and do that for the rest of their lives without anything. Like I, I think we need to have, we need to be somewhat on rails. We need to, yeah, ha- ha- have at least a little bit of friction in life to make sure you're working for, for some types of rewards, or else it's just in, so poisonous to the mind.
- CWChris Williamson
The path of least resistance is the one that you're always going to be able to find.
- DEDestiny
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
There's this concept I learned about called the Region Beta Paradox. Have you heard of this?
- DEDestiny
Nope.
- CWChris Williamson
Pretty cool. Uh, imagine you have a rule, you always walk when you're traveling a mile or less, and you always drive when you're going more than a mile.
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
If you follow that rule, you will paradoxically travel two miles faster than you travel one mile. The important insight here is if, if you only take action when things cross a certain threshold of badness, sometimes better things can feel worse than worse things. Look around and you'll find lots of people stuck in Region Beta, the guy who sticks around at his just okay job instead of ditching it for the chance for something better, the couple who should break up but can't bring themselves to do it, the friend who refuses to get a new apartment because their current one has some black mold. All of these people would actually be better off if their situations were worse because they'd leave their jobs, partners and apartments and be glad they did. Their only regret would be not leaving sooner. And that zone of comfortable complacency, comfortably numb scenario is where a lot of people get stuck.
- DEDestiny
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Not with the activation energy to kick out of the bottom because it's terrible-
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... and not ascended to the top of the highest flourishing heights that human civilization could offer them.
- DEDestiny
Gotcha. Okay. I didn't know that name, but I know this concept from the other end. I want to say there might be a name for something called decision paralysis?
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- DEDestiny
But basically it's like if you could graph like the discomfort or whatever in, in going into a new situation, um, it's always going to get a little bit worse before it gets better. And getting over that initial bad hump is really challenging for a lot of people. Um, the way that I overcame this is any time I've got like kind of shitty decisions, um, that I have in front of me, there's one thing that's always gonna be true, well I assume it's gonna be true, and that's that time always moves forward. And so in one year, three years, or five years you will get there, you're gonna be 35, you're gonna be 37, you're gonna be 39. You are gonna be there. And given that you know that to be true, looking back on this moment, what decision would you have been happier making? And using that process, there have been times where I've been able to make kind of like decisions that are hard that I know are going to be shitty for a while but it's like I know that three years from now if I look back and I continue on this path I'm gonna fucking hate myself. Because I can already look back one year and say like, "Fuck, why didn't that guy make that decision, you fucking moron?" Why would I stick here and then in three years be like, "Fuck." Like, it feels really shitty. If you think it feels really bad to sink two years into something that sucks, try sinking 10 years into it. Holy fuck. And if you think 10 years is bad, you might be in a 10 year bit, you might be 32 years old in a shitty relationship like, "Fuck me, I've wasted my whole 20s." Try wasting your whole 30s and 40s, okay? Dating at 55 is a lot harder than dating at 30, you know? Um, there's alwa- yeah, you, you've always got so much to be grateful for, you've always got like so much that you can improve on, but sometimes there will be little bumps that make it hard to get over it. Um, I think this is a really well known phenomenon too, another, another reminder of that is, um, there, there was some military colonel or somebody, I don't remember, but I think that, um, I feel like I watched this guy give an inspirational speech and he said that you should try to set your goal to do like some really menial task like, um, I think, I think he said brush one tooth. Like don't, don't, you don't have to go to the bathroom to brush your teeth, just brush one tooth. And the idea is that by the time you get there, if you do, if you, nobody just brushes one tooth, if you do that, you're gonna do the rest, right? Or if you go to the gym it's like, "Okay I don't want to go and spend two hours at the gym, I'm just gonna go to the gym and do one lift. I'm gonna go and I'm gonna squat and I'm gonna leave." Well chances are if you go and you do your one lift, you're not gonna want to leave after 20 minutes, you're gonna do the rest of your workout because you're already there, you know? But yeah, I agree with what you're saying, that is a real phenomenon and you have to learn a lot of little tricks to get your mind over that little hump because that little hump, as insignificant as it is, can destroy your entire fucking life (laughs) -
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- DEDestiny
... because you'll never get over it and you'll be comfortable, um... Fuck, what is it, fuck, there are Pink Floyd lyrics or whatever, before you know it like your whole life is gone and you, uh, from The Dark Side of the Moon, but yeah, um, yeah that, that little bump can be really damaging to a lot of people.
- CWChris Williamson
Beginning the momentum is super, super hard. A, a really great question that I had people ask during COVID was look, you've got, we don't know how long we're gonna be in lockdown, we're gonna be in lockdown for four months say, or six months, ended up being a bit longer in the UK. What would have had to have happened by the end of lockdown for you to look back on lockdown and consider it a success? You have the entire world at your feet. Yeah, you can't travel and yeah, there's restrictions on, you know, freedoms and what, what, what...... but really, you can do anything you want. Do you wanna lose five pounds?
- 49:32 – 58:24
What is Stochastic Terrorism?
- DEDestiny
- CWChris Williamson
Can you explain to me what stochastic terrorism is? Because I'm seeing this term get thrown around on the internet a lot and I don't know what it is.
- DEDestiny
Used to be really popular five years ago. It's a bit out of, um, out of date now. I don't think people use it as much. Maybe it's coming back. But stochastic terrorism is basically the idea that, like, "I'm going to lead you to the assault rifle and the scope but I'm not gonna make you pull the trigger." (laughs) It's basically like, "What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna provide all the necessary circumstances and, and rhetoric for you to feel like you need to take violent action without me saying it." So, um, have you ever heard of, like, the great replacement?
- CWChris Williamson
Kind of.
- DEDestiny
So that might be an idea. So basically, maybe I'll talk about, like, "Okay, listen. There are brown people, they're coming to your country, they're raping your women, they're taking over, they're becoming bigger voting blocs and you're gonna lose all of your rights, all of your freedoms, and eventually you're going to be a minority in your own country and you're going to be subjugated to their rule. Now, I'm not gonna tell you what to do about it, but I am gonna make sure that you really understand that," right? And then, so when this type of rhetoric becomes very pervasive, like, inevitably somebody's gonna feel like they have to stand up and take action because holy shit. Because I mean, obviously if you really believe it's happening, you probably should take action. Um, and then the violence that results from that, people would say like, "Well, that's a result of stochastic terrorism," maybe.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. Okay. So laying all of the breadcrumbs up until a point at which something can flare up.
- DEDestiny
Flare up. That's right. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But also having culpable deniability to be able to stay away from it. Do you think that it... is it everywhere at the moment or not?
- DEDestiny
I think it's a very... I think there are a lot of things that are fun tools to use to analyze what's going on in society. You just have to be very careful when you start swinging out your moral hammer about condemnation. Because, um, like... Yeah, like I, I think that the concept of stochastic terrorism is a good one and it's something we should analyze. But like, depending on how flexible you want to be with it, like everybody does it, right? Like you could argue that the, um, the massive BLM riots, um, in the United States, um, were part of... that was stochastic terrorism. That like saying that police were all going to kill Black people, that politicians don't care about you, voting doesn't matter, capitalists hate you. Well, of course people are gonna go riot and destroy everything and steal shit because, you know, why wouldn't you if that's what you believe? Um, so yeah, you just... I, I think that it's good to... I like the concept because it's good to view like, "Well, where does our rhetoric lead people?" Like if, if somebody in my audience... let's say that I found out right now that somebody in my audience went and did a mass shooting and they killed a bunch of women. Um, do I feel like I've said things that lead people down that road? Because if so, I would want to change. I don't want people to feel that way. I feel like I have a responsibility to my audience that I'm not giving them a message where it feels like the only way out is, you know, through violence or something. Um, so yeah, I think it's, it's a good concept to know of and to be aware of. Um, but don't like get weird about like calling people terrorists and shit and go like crazy or whatever. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. It's, it's the terrorism part that I didn't quite understand because terrorism is a very specific type of crime phenomenon that people engage in. And I don't know, I didn't... it didn't see... it just seems like... and that might just be a lexical problem, right? It might just have poor branding, but it didn't really seem to make so much sense to me. That being said, the unsaid things, what it is that you're not saying is often as powerful as what you are saying.
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And I suppose that this speaks to that, um, vacuum that allows speculation to fill it-
- DEDestiny
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... and then for people to take action off the back of the speculation.
- DEDestiny
Yeah. It's very relevant to what we were talking about with like the, um, manosphere stuff. Um, Jordan Peterson does this a lot, but we won't have to get into that. But like, somebody will come away from like a lot of re- a lot of red pill stuff and somebody, maybe a left-leaning person, will look at them and be like, "You guys hate women. Like, it feels like you hate women." And then the other crowd will look at you and be like, "Find me one time in this entire video where we said that we hated women." And it's like, "Well, I guess you never said that." It's like, "That's right, because we love women." It's like, "Okay, maybe you do." But like if you look at all of the messaging, all of the cock carousel comments, all of the like slut hoe comments, all of the like virgins are the only women worth anything comments, all of the women are like the succubi that are looking for (inaudible) "It feels like you hate women but I guess you never really did say it." Yeah. It's that level of plausible deniability and that inevitability to where you're leading your audience that I think, like, triggers the fuck out of a lot of people, or at least it triggers me sometimes. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I heard Hasan say, "I have hatred in my heart for this man." Was that actually about you?
- DEDestiny
(laughs) Probably. We have a very, uh... is it sordid? Is the word I'm looking for? A very sordid history, I think.
- CWChris Williamson
Why? I would have considered both of you guys are from the left. I know that there's distances that you can go on the left, but w- I would have thought that you guys would have been...
- DEDestiny
That's a whole other hour-long tr-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh.
- DEDestiny
It's... we have a very long history together.
- CWChris Williamson
I didn't realize there was lore.
- DEDestiny
Oh yeah. It was... we... he kind of came from my community, um, a long time, maybe three years ago. Um, it... there's a lot. Yeah, there's a lot of...
- CWChris Williamson
Shit, son.
- DEDestiny
Yeah. Well, (inaudible)
- CWChris Williamson
I mean, this is... this is one of the things that people often talk about. The fact that on the right, the way that some of the more bombastic commentators can go about things, it makes it kind of obvious-
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... that this person is disagreeing with this person and there's infighting and so on and so forth. I think because of at least publicly how a lot of the left wing is presented at the moment, the empathy, the kindness, the compassion, the inclusion-
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... so on and so forth, uh, it's kind of assumed that everybody also gets on. That, that included in that-
- 58:24 – 1:02:08
The Left’s Plan to Re-Engage Men
- CWChris Williamson
I- if you were trying to advise the left on how to reengage with men online? What, uh, what needs to be dispensed with or what would be the, the place that you can begin at? Because you're right, it is very much dominated by people that have more conservative traditional values-
- DEDestiny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... but if you want to have a healthy debate, you need to have people from all sides. Wh- what are some ideas that you've got about how to engage more effectively?
- DEDestiny
(laughs) Um, this is, it's really cringey because everybody says this, but I guess I'll throw my hat into the ring and say it as well. Um, you have to be willing to engage with truthful things. Um, once you've kind of let the truth take a backseat to your political ideology, you've, like, compromised your ability to communicate with anybody. So, um, as soon as you've gotten to a world where it's like, "Oh, well, men and women..." Like, I've had huge arguments with people where they've told me that, like, men and women are roughly the same strength as each other except sometimes cultural differences make it a little bit different. And when you're starting to have arguments like that, nobody is gonna listen to anything you're saying because it's clearly you want men and women to be equal so much that you're willing to sacrifice, like, true observations for things that now you're just, you're in another world. Yeah. You're, like, your ep-epistemic statements, your, your, your ideas about, like, gathering knowledge and truth in the world, that can't take a backseat to what you feel is right. Um, that's, that's... Yeah, that's not good. And conservatives do it too sometimes to some extent. I won't say it's just people on the left. But people on the left are especially egregious with it right now when it comes to analyzing things relating to, like, men and women, or trans people, or some other types of social issues as well, you know? You have to be willing to start... And that's usually, that's how I usually build bridges with people on the right, is I'll start with, like, a true observation. Like, if you come at me and you're like, "Well, I think that Black people do actually commit a lot more crime in the US than white people," like, "Yeah, they do. I'll agree with you." Um, that's an important part of my analysis, right? "Well, why do they commit more crime?" That's, like, the important question to ask. Not trying to fight, "Well, if we massage the stats enough, I can actually show you that the crime is actually the same if I control for age, if I control for demographics, if I control for where they live in the city, if I control for this and that and that and that and that and that," and it's like, "Oh, it's the exact same." It's like, yeah, well, if you control for enough fucking things you're gonna make everything the same as another thing, you know? Um, but, uh, yeah, I, I think that that's, like, my big... That would be my big suggestion, like, be willing to make true, bold observations and then work from there. And that, yeah, I mean, like... I mean, fuck, like, we have all, like, the sociologists and the anthropologists and all that shit on the left anyway. That should be your job regardless is to make those hard, strong observations and then build from there.
Episode duration: 1:02:43
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