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What Is Wrong With Modern Women? - Whitney Cummings

Whitney Cummings is a comedian, actress, writer, and a podcaster. Women aren't having a great time at the moment. They're maybe just as lost as men, the only difference is they get a little bit more sympathy. So just where did the trajectory of women go awry and how can they find a way to be happy again? Expect to learn about the social psychology behind the rise of Taylor Swift, Whitney’s thoughts on becoming a mother and the future of motherhood, whether women really can have it all, why more men are attracted to Whitney now that she’s pregnant, what we do about the future of sex robots and much more... Sponsors: Get a Free Sample Pack of all LMNT Flavours with your first box at https://www.drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom (automatically applied at checkout) Get 15% discount on the best Colostrum from ARMRA at https://tryarmra.com/modernwisdom (use code: MODERNWISDOM) Get an exclusive discount from Surfshark VPN at https://surfshark.deals/MODERNWISDOM (use code MODERNWISDOM) Extra Stuff: Get my free Reading List of 100 books to read before you die → https://chriswillx.com/books/ Buy my productivity energy drink Neutonic: https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - 00:00 Intro 00:57 Did Pfizer Bring Travis Kelce & Taylor Swift Together? 10:53 Having an Obligatory Opinion on Everything 14:52 Jada Pinkett Smith’s Confusing Marriage 21:53 Why Young Men Are Dating Older Girls 27:36 Preparing for a Baby as a Woman 32:42 Mistaking Charisma for a Romantic Spark 44:00 Survival Mechanisms in Daily Life 48:18 Benefits of the 12-Step Program 53:52 The Beauty of Having a Child 1:01:42 Being Intentional in Relationships 1:09:16 Dating Someone Who Has an Online Persona 1:21:16 Who to Seek Relationship Advice From 1:25:06 Is There Power in Positively Changing for Your Partner? 1:32:37 How to Take Material for Art From Life 1:46:30 Taking a Life Hiatus for Childcare 1:50:59 How to Survive on Tour 2:02:30 Allowing Yourself to Feel Emotions 2:06:58 Where to Find Whitney - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Whitney CummingsguestChris Williamsonhost
Dec 16, 20232h 7mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:57

    Intro

    1. WC

      Can I just really quick, you feel free to cut this.

    2. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    3. WC

      I love watching you work. I love showing up to meet somebody that I am a fan of already, and I've seen their astronomical rise to success, and then I see why they deserve it.

    4. CW

      Why?

    5. WC

      Just watching you operate for the past like five, 10 minutes has been fascinating.

    6. CW

      How so?

    7. WC

      You just care so much about what you're doing and you're meticulous, but not in a way that's micromanaging and annoying, and the attention to detail is like very intense, but not in a way that's too far, you know?

    8. CW

      Right amount of autism?

    9. WC

      It's the perfect amount of Asperger's. I don't know what word we're supposed to be using right now.

    10. CW

      Yeah.

    11. WC

      But it's not lateral moves, it's actually improving things, 'cause sometimes you'll just watch people make arbitrary lateral changes for no reason just to like throw their dick around or boss someone around or something. It's been like really very endearing to watch.

    12. CW

      Thank you. I appreciate that. It's really nice to meet you.

    13. WC

      You too.

    14. CW

      Uh, Travis Kelce, we just saw on the TV outside.

  2. 0:57 – 10:53

    Did Pfizer Bring Travis Kelce & Taylor Swift Together?

    1. CW

    2. WC

      We did.

    3. CW

      Pfizer advert, but I guess if you're hanging out the back of Taylor Swift, what do you care? You know what I mean?

    4. WC

      I, yeah, well, okay, so we just saw, what, what happened to you when you saw that?

    5. CW

      It's just kind of, it's so strange to see someone that has so much status and kind of embodies a lot of like rebellious nature-

    6. WC

      Uh-huh.

    7. CW

      ... which I think, you know, football players, QBs, that like alpha masculine thing, Pfizer, I mean, Pfizer's brand equity, it's like, it's, it's hardly cool, right?

    8. WC

      What's the price? What's the price that makes it worth it? What's the price to someone like Tr- Travis Kelce that makes it worth it for guys like you to go, "Oh, come on, you got dommed by a pharma company"?

    9. CW

      Apparently one Taylor Swift blow job-

    10. WC

      (laughs)

    11. CW

      ... or like a ... So here's the fucking re-

    12. WC

      Do you think dating her is what influenced him to do it?

    13. CW

      Get on the internet-

    14. WC

      Do you think being attracted to girls that skinny is a vaccine injury?

    15. CW

      (laughs) You were saying before we got started that there's been a, a big push body positivity, we need diversity, Barbie movie comes out and Taylor Swift makes a billion dollars on tour. It's like, it's just fucking Nazi Germany all over again.

    16. WC

      Skinny blonde girls are back, thank God.

    17. CW

      Yeah.

    18. WC

      Take all my money. (laughs)

    19. CW

      The Aryan white dream. Um, no, I, so here's the real fucking conspiracy, right?

    20. WC

      Get it. Go.

    21. CW

      The real conspiracy is Travis Kelce and Taylor Swift's relationship was orchestrated by big pharma because they started dating at the same time that he did that Pfizer campaign. So search volume for Travis Kelce's name went through the roof, and when you search for his name, the vaccine stuff and the Pfizer partnership comes up too.

    22. WC

      So my question about that, it's like my same thing about aliens and stuff. It's like I just think people are so weak and so desperate to like talk to a girl at a bar or get attention or the wrong person involved in that scandal took edibles. Don't you think someone would have gotten fired and told people about it?

    23. CW

      Who? Oh, right.

    24. WC

      It's like with aliens. It's like someone would have snitched. Someone g- one, some guy would've gotten drunk at a bar and been like, "Hey, like you don't want to go home with me? You wanna see a picture of a fucking alien?"

    25. CW

      (laughs)

    26. WC

      You know what I'm saying? Like don't you think it would have gotten out?

    27. CW

      Yeah, I mean, coordination is difficult, and there's definitely two worlds that people are able to hold in their mind at once, which is the government is both so incompetent that they can't organize a piss up in a brewery-

    28. WC

      Sure, sure.

    29. CW

      ... and so competent that they're able to orchestrate this sort of massive-

    30. WC

      I go to DMV and I'm like, "If they were aliens, we would have known." Okay? Like we would absolutely know by now, right?

  3. 10:53 – 14:52

    Having an Obligatory Opinion on Everything

    1. CW

      like, are you supposed to have a take on the Ukraine? I think you were on Joe's show yesterday, and it's like, wow, there's so many people listening. Like, am I supposed to talk about something important?

    2. WC

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      Do you feel that? You know, is there a, an obligation if you get to a certain size of having to-

    4. WC

      Work it out.

    5. CW

      ... talk about important things and, and stuff like that? Can you not just keep having fun all the way up?

    6. WC

      I think for me, it's like being a comedian, I think it's really important to, you know, know our place, you know? I think for me, it's like as long as the take is funny, it doesn't matte- you can talk about anything, you know? But to come in and be one of these, like, Hollywood people, not that I see myself as someone who's in Hollywood, I think a lot of people might see me that way, I can't seriously go, "This is who you should vote for." Or, "This is how you should think," or, "This is what you should believe," or, "This is..." Or take the moral high ground. But if the take has some sort of comedic value, it's like there's nothing we can't talk about. I like to stay away from politics for the most part unless I'm making fun of both sides simultaneously. That's... 'Cause I think people... I think it's our job as comedians and, and, uh, podcasters is to surprise people. There's just so much content out there right now and so many people are talking about politics, and I think you gotta go, like, what kind of person is seeking comedy? They are maybe bored with their jobs, they ha- they wanna take a girl on a date, they have their kid at home crying, they've been in a long marriage, they just wanna go to a club, they wanna go to a venue, and hear something different from what they're seeing online all day. And so it's my job to surprise them. So if they show up and I'm gonna start talking about Trump, they're like, "I just had to hear my uncle yell about this for two ho-" Like, you just... I just have to do whatever the opposite everybody else is doing to try to give them some kind of surprise.

    7. CW

      Yeah. It's, uh... It's strange to think about how...... as people's platforms grow, there, there's this compulsion to have a take on, on everything. And-

    8. WC

      Unless you have a take no one else is saying, there's really no need to speak about it.

    9. CW

      Yeah, u- unless you're unbelievably educated in something. But I, I, definitely as, as platforms grow, there's a, there's almost a pressure to be like, "Well, fuck it, I better talk about something interesting here."

    10. WC

      Well, and talking about platforms growing, it's like, you can play the long, short game or the long game. And for me, like, I mean, you know, knowing Rogan for so long and seeing like, his epi- his first 1,000 episodes were just him and his friends just talking about bullshit, talking about, you know, comedy and stuff. It wasn't necessarily what was going on in the news. And then that made for this library that was really easy to syndicate.

    11. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    12. WC

      You can go back and listen to episodes of his from 10 years ago, still funny, still entertaining. I always like, in terms of making the podcast, I always wanted to go like, "I wanna build this library that's evergreen and not too topical." So if people discover my podcast now and they start from the beginning, it's still gonna be about, you know, main themes of human nature, relationships, making mistakes, edification, all the kinda stuff that you talk about too that's a little bit evergreen-

    13. CW

      Yeah.

    14. WC

      ... instead of someone tuning in and being like, hearing about a candidate that they don't even remem- that was-

    15. CW

      Exactly.

    16. WC

      ... didn't even make the second prior.

    17. CW

      I, I always think about this, so Ben Shapiro's a good example. I listened to a lot of him during, uh, COVID, because if there's a rapidly changing news cycle and you've got fuck-all else to do-

    18. WC

      Yeah.

    19. CW

      ... someone that does one episode five days a week that is always telling you what's happened in the last 24 hours is a pretty good place to go. But I realized looking back on that, no one's going back to hear what happened on April 20th, 2020-

    20. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    21. CW

      ... because it was so, you, you get this huge lift off in terms of interest-

    22. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    23. CW

      ... but it doesn't necessarily carry through, which I think is, yeah, is an interesting way to kind of look at things.

    24. WC

      If people go like, "Oh my God, I just discovered, you know, uh, Modern Wisdom, he just had Jordan Peterson on. Oh my God, he had Jordan Peterson on two years ago."

    25. CW

      We can go back and listen.

    26. WC

      "Let me listen to that. They, they're gonna cover different stuff." Like, "Oh my, and I just learned so much more. He had Robert Greene on aga-" you know? So for me, I, I really, you know, I come from making TV and sitcoms, and when you try to make sitcoms that get syndicated, the idea is that they live forever.

    27. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    28. WC

      You know? So if you have jokes that are too topical, you know, they're gonna expire and it's gonna feel dated. So I always kind of thought like, "Okay, what's my place in this podcast space? Because there's a lot of really, really smart people doing this, there are a lot of people way more qualified than me talking about politics. That's not, you know, something I necessarily am qualified to weigh in on." I can make jokes about it, but why don't I do these like evergreen shows that people can on road trips just go back two years and it's still gonna be relevant?

  4. 14:52 – 21:53

    Jada Pinkett Smith’s Confusing Marriage

    1. WC

    2. CW

      Have you been happy to see the Jada Pinkett Smith meltdown?

    3. WC

      (laughs)

    4. CW

      Because the bar for being a good mother has now been set lower than ever.

    5. WC

      I love that she's like, "Will Smith and I have not been married for seven years, and I am Jada Pinkett Smith." Smith? It's like, then why are you Jada Pinkett all of a sudden? Why does your book say Smith on the end? Um, that whole thing is wild to me. And I've been actually thinking about this podcast, 'cause I've been a little bit nervous about coming on it and how I can be like useful in some way to your listeners, and because they all seem to be very high performing, striving people. And you know, I do have this theory that, you know, and it's probably something you've explored before, is that like who you marry or date is a business decision. You know? It, not in terms of we're going into business together, but in terms of the amount of bandwidth you have, you know, the amount of energy you have. Is this person energizing you? Is it depleting you? It's gonna decide how f- focused you can be in your personal life. Like, one of my favorite quotes is the Flaubert quote, um, "Be," uh, uh, what is it? "Be organized and orderly in your..." No. "Be regular and orderly in your personal life so you can be original and violent in your work." You know? So have like, not, it doesn't have to be boring, not boring sex. You don't have to be bor- of, of your partner, but it, the most stressful part of your day should be work, right? So I think that oftentimes the person you choose is a business decision. But I look at them and I'm like, "They just wanted to build a business." You know?

    6. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    7. WC

      I think that was always kind of a business arrangement in my opinion.

    8. CW

      I watched the first ever time that I've seen The Rock on a podcast, and it was on Trevor Noah's podcast, which is partnered with Spotify. And I didn't know this, but The Rock has broken up with his wife, but is still business partners with her. So they have a daughter together.

    9. WC

      Okay.

    10. CW

      And The Rock and his ex-wife are now separated-

    11. WC

      Okay.

    12. CW

      ... but still business partners and still have the daughter.

    13. WC

      For his business, like his-

    14. CW

      ZOA maybe, or the fucking tequila or what, the rum or whatever it is that he does.

    15. WC

      Sure, sure.

    16. CW

      I don't know what business, but at least one of them, he's still business partners with his, with his wife.

    17. WC

      There's a lot of these things where it's like you make that kind of money together and then it's like, "We're better together as a busin-" I mean, think about what would ha- it would be like, um, having to like break up a corporation basically. You know?

    18. CW

      Yeah. A divorce is easier than a, a separation of the business.

    19. WC

      Totally. But yeah, it, it, I, mm-hmm, uh, it's not for me. I'm one of those idiots that still wants to have like amazing sex with someone and like really feel like I'm best friends with my person and I'm gonna like hold out for that. Cut to me in 10 years when I'm married to Bill Gates (laughs) or-

    20. CW

      (laughs)

    21. WC

      ... or some crazy craven shit.

    22. CW

      Yeah.

    23. WC

      (laughs) And I'm like, I'm like, "We own half of the McDonald's potatoes and the GMOs," or whatever. But I, I, I guess that's for some people, but you know, I don't know. I really, that to me seems really sinister and craven. I mean, you know, look, I'm a comic. I'm happy to weigh in and say what happened at the Oscars when, you know, Will Smith smacked Chris Rock in the face. You know, that was... And no one stood up, by the way. No, nobody even stood up. Like that's, you know, as a comedian, people, you know, are like, "God, you guys can get away with anything," until you get punched in the face in front of, you know, a room of 1,000 people that don't even stand up to help you. But the fact that he looked back at her, did that in the name of his wife, I'm like, "I don't know what videos she has on him. I don't know what photo, I don't know what the fuck is going on in there, what kind of Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf shit is going on in that marriage, but that's my nightmare."

    24. CW

      Yeah. Do you know, uh, Ryan Long and Danny from The Boys cast?

    25. WC

      Yes.

    26. CW

      Yeah, in New York? Uh, they, I was texting him, they did a really great episode a couple of weeks ago about this, and I was texting Ryan and he was like, "Dude, I'm, I'm un-ironically really fucking worried about Will Smith."Like, genuinely fucking emotionally invested in super, super fun.

    27. WC

      Have you seen the video where she was filming him and he was like, "I need you to stop filming me." And she's like-

    28. CW

      Yes. That's a while ago now.

    29. WC

      Y- R- Yeah. But the, his face. I mean, she's like, he's in a bad mood and she's like, "This is my business. This is what I, I'm on camera for a living. I'm not getting paid."

    30. CW

      Broken man.

  5. 21:53 – 27:36

    Why Young Men Are Dating Older Girls

    1. WC

      is that younger guys kinda wanna date older girls.

    2. CW

      You said that you've never been hit on more-

    3. WC

      (laughs) In my life. (laughs)

    4. CW

      ... than what your fertility has been on front, front and center. For the people that are listening, Whitney is heavily pregnant, three weeks away from popping.

    5. WC

      Yes, because if I said, like, "Chris harassed me," they'd be like, "No, you whore." You're... (laughs)

    6. CW

      (laughs)

    7. WC

      Obviously. (laughs)

    8. CW

      What's g- Like, what do you think it is? Why, w- just a big billboard for your fertility? What is it?

    9. WC

      I think there's (laughs) , I think there's a couple things. I think, and this is something we've texted about. I don't know why comedians have to do this, where we can't just go into something without going... And we've texted about the... Like, I don't want the audience to-

    10. CW

      Got to give her the billboard. Well, it's in between all of the nudes that you keep on sending me.

    11. WC

      It's r- (laughs)

    12. CW

      I finally got the...

    13. WC

      That's supposed to be on the Confide app.

    14. CW

      Yeah.

    15. WC

      Um, so I think that for me, and I think a lot of women are struggling this right, with this right now. Um, or... (sighs) I don't know if they're struggling with it, but I think that they're striving to struggle with it. I'll get there. I think I came off so tough and so hard for so long, I think that's kinda just softened me in a way that made men sort of... You know, I spent so much of my career, like, trying to be one of the guys or kind of try to come off, like, I wasn't a girl so that they wouldn't, you know, try to flirt with me at work or so that I would get respect or so that I could go on stage and command respect from the audience and not show any vulnerabilities. And, um, I grew up with a mother who... And, you know, many people, women of that generation were, who was like... I mean, there's no other way to say it. She was a gold digger. You know, she had to date men for money. And it drove me nuts. Like, there were men in the house that were just, "You have to wear this and you have to..." And I would have to go out to dinners with her and, like, behave so that I wouldn't mess it up for her. And, you know, it was kind of very high stake situation. Her appearance was everything. And, you know, back then, that was your currency. And I just remember going, "I'm never gonna do this." Like, this is... It's disrespectful to myself, it's disrespect... I just wanted to be self-sufficient kind of before I started dating anybody because I never wanted to be thinking about the amount of money they were making or, or I never wanted them to have to take care of me. It was just, like, too embarrassing, you know? And so, I think that I worked so hard to be independent and that's what I talked about in my standup. And, so I think that by the time I got pregnant, people were kind of like, "Oh, like, she does have vulnerability."

    16. CW

      Yes. Yes.

    17. WC

      "She does have a softness to her." And I think a lot of women right now are afraid to show that side of ourselves, you know? And I think that there's a lot of strength in vulnerability and there's a lot of strength in showing a soft "feminine" side. But right now, everyone's trying to, like, come off so tough and, "I'm one of the guys," that it's just sort of like, I don't think you realize that that's actually weakening you in a lot of ways.

    18. CW

      Why do you think they're trying to do that? What do you think they're trying to get out of it? What do you think's the reason?

    19. WC

      I think there's a couple things. I think for me, I'll be a little bit specific. Like, you know-I, I had a dad that wanted boys. Like, you know, at that... (laughs) It was at, for a very young age, I was just kind of, you know, treated like a boy, it was all about how successful I could be at sports, it was all about how good I, my grades could be. My dad would wake me up in the middle of the night and quiz me on spelling wo- you know, it was all about getting achievements, um, and there was an awkwardness about my femininity. Um, and then, you know, played sports, was rewarded for being tough, became a, you know, female comic, sort of had to neuter myself in a lot of ways, you know, that's my specific thing. But I think that, you know, women, I think, y- you know, I think there's like, there's a lot going on, but I think that for me personally, I wanted so badly to just succeed in my career without anyone thinking that I was sleeping around or flirting or using my looks to get ahead.

    20. CW

      Oh, because the last thing that you would want would be, "Oh, she shagged her way to the top of the totem pole."

    21. WC

      So, I just always wanted to be like, kind of extra hard and sort of extra bull dyke-y, so-

    22. CW

      Compensatory.

    23. WC

      Just kind of, like, "I'm one of the guys," so that no one would ever flirt with me, so there would never be rumors around that I was like, sleeping my way or getting anything that I didn't deserve.

    24. CW

      Yeah.

    25. WC

      You know? So I think I overcompensated a little bit.

    26. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    27. WC

      Um, I think I was scared, um, of, you know, having any vulnerability, so I pretended to be tougher than I was.

    28. CW

      Yeah.

    29. WC

      Um, I think there was that. I think you're kinda taught at a young age being a girl is a weakness, it's not a strength. That's what I was taught. You know, it was like, you go on the playground and the boys they let go play and the girls, they go, "Be careful, you're gonna hurt yourself or you're gonna rip your tights."

    30. CW

      Mm-hmm.

  6. 27:36 – 32:42

    Preparing for a Baby as a Woman

    1. CW

      over the next 10 years, I think that we're going to see, uh, maybe, I would put in, uh, a little bet down that we're gonna see a flip and that male body dysmorphia is already on track to overtake female body dysmorphia within about 10 to 15 years.

    2. WC

      Fascinating.

    3. CW

      But I think that the crisis from an identity perspective is going to be on women, not on men. I think we have a crisis of masculinity at the moment-

    4. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    5. CW

      ... but I think bubbling below the surface is going to be a crisis of femininity.

    6. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    7. CW

      I think that... I, I would like to think that the guys are gonna be okay. I can't do as much for the girls, so I- I'm unable to put my finger on the pulse, but I would say that, uh, men are maybe going to be much more concerned about appearance and girls are going to be much more concerned about identity. But talk to me about that-

    8. WC

      Hmm.

    9. CW

      ... transition of going from being hard, brash, to now having to kind of, you know, soften up and, and allow that.

    10. WC

      And 'cause I also like, I, you know, I grew up in a home that was very rough. I mean, you're English. I mean maybe, you know, isn't it kind of (laughs) that's how you-

    11. CW

      Pistakings in our blood. Yeah, yeah.

    12. WC

      Yeah, right? Like, I mean-

    13. CW

      Mockery and sarcasm and-

    14. WC

      Roasting each other. There was a lot of passive aggressive shit, there was a lot of alcoholism, there was a lot of, you know, really deep seeded shame and biting bullshit. So, you know, by the time I got out in the world, that's also just kinda like how I thought I had to, you know, talk to people, I thought that was normal. Um, and being around male comics all the time, you know, uh, rough, roughs you up a little bit as well. So I had a hard time turning it off, like in relationships and such. Um, but I'm sorry, I, wha- what is the question? Oh, how it's gonna-

    15. CW

      So your transition, yeah. How did you find... You've go- you've had to go from being that person who is playing the masculine role in some ways-

    16. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    17. CW

      ... like, the masculine feminine role, which is in-

    18. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    19. CW

      ... like, even overtuning your masculinity-

    20. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    21. CW

      ... and now you're like, "Okay, and now I've gotta like, care about this ch- I got three weeks-"

    22. WC

      Yeah.

    23. CW

      ... to be- to become a, a fucking mother."

    24. WC

      You know, it's interesting because it's like my brain gets like, a little bit scrambled around this because, you know, in terms of masculine qualities and feminine qualities, it's like it's, it's, I conflate them sometimes because I'm like, a lot of the qualities that I have used thus far that I think seem masculine have been like, I've been nurturing, I've just nurtured my career. You know what I mean? (laughs) It's like-

    25. CW

      Yeah.

    26. WC

      ... I treated my career th- you know, like a child or, or how I should treat a husband or something. And now I'm kind of, you know, I would, I would nurture other comics, I would nurture the writers that I worked with, you know? I was like, I've always kind of had that, but I never really turned it towards myself or towards a relationship. So now I'm kind of going, I think the main switch for me is that now that I have achieved my goals, I can turn that energy onto a child and a relationship. I was very clear in my 20s that I was not ready to attract the man that I wanted, that if he came along, he would not be (laughs) he would not be down, you know? So I was very much in my 20s, I was like, "I need to become the person that I would want, the guy that I wanna be with that they would actually be interested in."

    27. CW

      I think that's a pretty noble way to look at developing yourself generally. I've got a friend, David Perell, uh, who is still... I think he's been with his missus for, girlfriend, uh, for two years or so, and he's fucking besotted with her, like absolutely in love with her. And, uh-... I went to lunch with him when I first moved to Austin about 18 months ago, and we sit down, and he's super successful, and he's got this big online business, and he does lots of stuff, and he's helping people's lives to be better, becoming better writers online.

    28. WC

      Yeah.

    29. CW

      And, uh, he said, uh, "You know what I realized? I spent most of my 30s making myself into the dad that my future kids want." I was like, "Wow, that's fucking cool."

    30. WC

      I love that.

  7. 32:42 – 44:00

    Mistaking Charisma for a Romantic Spark

    1. CW

      and, uh, she wrote a book. Really interesting lady.

    2. WC

      Wow.

    3. CW

      And, um, she was saying, maybe related to that, you know, people find... And you do this with friends too. You meet someone, and you're like, "Oh my God, we've got such a connection. There's such a spark here." But what you don't realize is, that person is sparky with everybody.

    4. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    5. CW

      It's just called, like, really, really overtuned charm or charisma.

    6. WC

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      And you-

    8. WC

      Which is usually a red flag it's a coping mechanism.

    9. CW

      Well, it could be fucking anything, but it's not-

    10. WC

      Yeah.

    11. CW

      ... you that's special necessarily. That's not to say that sparks don't exist. Some people do come together. But a lot of the times, like, okay, is this person like this with me because of me?

    12. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    13. CW

      Or do they do it to the barista that serves them the coffee and the parking attendant that helps them with their ticket? Like, are they just, you know, causing this all over the place?

    14. WC

      Yeah. That's a really interesting one. I mean, that brings up something that really bothers me when I see online or like hear girls be like, "He love bombed me, and then I didn't hear from him." It's like, or he just liked you, and you got whack, and then he stopped (laughs) , you know. Or, you know, or is it this pathological thing of what you're talking about, where someone comes in and tries to like razzle-dazzle people, and you know, that's just-

    15. CW

      Well, there's definitely-

    16. WC

      ... their thing.

    17. CW

      ... there's definitely something alluring about aloofness. Again, just, you know, it doesn't need to be about relationships-

    18. WC

      Yeah.

    19. CW

      ... and friendships. There is something where you're, someone that's too keen with anything, like you call them a keeno. It's like, "Ugh."

    20. WC

      Yeah.

    21. CW

      "Like, dude, come on, stop texting."

    22. WC

      It's cringey.

    23. CW

      "Stop, stop calling, stop doing whatever."

    24. WC

      Uh-huh.

    25. CW

      Um...

    26. WC

      But if it's the right person, is it cringey?

    27. CW

      I don't know. What causes two people to become intertwined romantically or, you know, socially or whatever, a lot of different ways that can happen.

    28. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    29. CW

      But there's definitely a, a way that you can make yourself more or less alluring by, you know, not just being present all the fucking time.

    30. WC

      Yeah.

  8. 44:00 – 48:18

    Survival Mechanisms in Daily Life

    1. CW

      on a, on a Thursday, and, um, I went last night, and if you've ever... It's not super intense breath work, but it's m- enough t- uh, like, regulate the nervous system. And one of the things, if you've never done it for an extended, like, half-hour-plus period of time, it's g- a little bit like psychedelics. It's a bit more difficult to hold onto control, or you just see patterns arise a little bit more easily.

    2. WC

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      Uh, and my executive function, uh, you know, that's what you kinda noticed as you came in, it's like me puttering around saying, "Hey man, can we just do this?" And blah, blah, blah. Like, that's always on.

    4. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    5. CW

      And, um, I wonder... I think this is probably quite a common pattern for s- the sorts of people that are listening that can afford to listen to us waffle on, you know, talking about human psychology or whatever, um, that there's a degree of, like, wanting to do it right. Am I doing it right?

    6. WC

      Yep.

    7. CW

      Like, is this... Could I do it bet- how can I optimize this? Am I... I w- I wonder if I d- b- breathe a little bit more quickly, would it be, if I bre- breathe a little bit more... I hope that the, the lady that's teaching the class thinks that I'm doing it right, like, if she comes near with the thing. Like, that energy of just... It's like an insecurity-

    8. WC

      Yeah.

    9. CW

      ... in some ways. And one of the weird externalities that comes from this is, it can be very, very successful, right? It drives you to be so detail-oriented, to focus on things to a, a degree of minutia that gives you an unbelievable competitive advantage. But the felt sense of that can be you tripping over these tiny, tiny little things and permanently being vigilant-

    10. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    11. CW

      Right? Like the prey animal thing.

    12. WC

      Yeah.

    13. CW

      You're being vigilant for what's the next thing that needs to be fixed. And the, uh, Mandy, the lady that takes the class yesterday, uh, pipes up every so often, it's fucking great, it's like sound healing with breath work, and then the final 30 minutes, she just lets you do whatever you want. So I pay, I pay someone to watch me nap on a Thursday-

    14. WC

      (laughs) That's just, that's such a mechanic thing.

    15. CW

      ... um, for a good amount of time. Yeah. Um, but she said, uh, at the very beginning of the class, or partway through, she said, uh, "Don't forget you're not fixing a problem." And I was like, "Fuck, that's good." Like, you're not trying to fix a problem, you're just doing the thing.

    16. WC

      I also think that these are survival mechanisms that served us really well, and it helps them in a 12-step program called Adult Children of Alcoholics. It's basically if you grew up in an alcoholic home, in order for alcoholism to be present, alcohol doesn't have to be present. So if you didn't see drinking, it's fine. If you grew up around any kind of chaos as a child, you became a parentified child. So if in any way you had to parent your parents or take care of yourself too young, um, you know, we're the kids that were so mature for our age and we were the old soul and we're the ones that made our own lunch, and you know, it basically went, "I'm on my own here. These adults are, you know, (laughs) do not have their shit together," kind of thing.

    17. CW

      Yeah. It looks like mature, but what it actually is, is just survival.

    18. WC

      That's correct. So I grew up in an alcoholic home, divorce, things were being... A lot of fighting. I had to be hypervigilant. It served really well as a child. My mom was going through a bad divorce. She, you know, drank a lot. She was, you know, didn't have the tools we all have. Uh, that generation didn't have podcasts like this. You know, they didn't have, um, you know, these soun-

    19. CW

      Fucking Headspace and...

    20. WC

      Uh, they didn't have sound bath classes and stuff. They were just drinking and white-knuckling through it. And so anytime I had a need or a want, she was very overwhelmed, she was crying. At a very early age, it was like, "Don't have any needs. Constantly make sure that, you know, you're self-contained, self-deprived. Make sure this is okay, because if she comes home and sees that this is messed up, she's gonna have a conniption and then I'm gonna have to deal with that." So it really helps, there's a step in the program that really helps you kind of, like, y- sort of anthropomorphize these voices and be able to do this little exercise where if, you know, I'm in the sound bath class and it's like, "Are you doing it right? And what if the instructor doesn't think you're doing it well enough and they don't think they're good?" And I'm going, "I know what that is. Don't need you right now. Gonna need you to sit back on the bench. Thank you so much. You helped me out when I was six. Bye, bitch." You know? So you're kind of able to sort of like, like personify it in a way. Some people call it their shadow, their inner bully, whatever the fuck you wanna call it. But there's sometimes that I come offstage and it's like, "That wasn't good enough," and da da da. And like, "Thank you. I wanna be better at this g- vocation. That is actually when I do need you. So yeah, get in the fucking game 'cause I'm shooting a special in a week, and let's, like, crush this." You know? But I don't need it when I'm in meditation class. So I, like, have those little exercises I do that help.

    21. CW

      What are the modalities that have helped

  9. 48:18 – 53:52

    Benefits of the 12-Step Program

    1. CW

      you go from where you were in your 20s to someone that feels like they've got their shit sorted now? Or be s- at least a little bit close to being sorted?

    2. WC

      Oh god. A 12-step program really helped me. I just feel like people, you know, talk about it when it's like AA or NA, when it's like, you know, recovering from-

    3. CW

      What's NA?

    4. WC

      NA is Narcotics Anonymous. Like, I think people really talk about these 12-step programs when it's res- recovering from a substance. But when you're in ACA or Al-Anon, it's more about recovering from the internal drug cabinet, which is cortisol and adrenaline. So the drama addicts, right? The sort of, you know, i- if you grew up in an alcoholic home, you know, you might gravitate towards being in relationships with people that you have to fix or rescue, or you're in these toxic, addictive relationships that, you know, aren't really good but you can't really get out, and you're finding yourself being the person that's like, "I hate drama," but you're always in some kinda drama. You know? So for me, I really had to get a handle on that because I was in relationships with people that I had to rescue, I was dating people I had to fix, I thought I had to take care of everybody, I was taking care of friends. Like, I was just always the crisis person. You know, you feel alive in a time of crisis. That's just our comfort zone. That's really served me in some of my work situations, but not in my personal life. It's a giant waste of time. Wasn't taking care of myself. Um, m- you know, the three Ms we call it, mothering, micromanaging, martyring.You know, where putting everybody else first, putting yourself last, that just came naturally to me. Doing that program really helped me to not have guilt saying no to people, being just able to stand up for myself, not doing anything out of obligation, 'cause I f- I was wasting so much time doing-

    5. CW

      Were you finding yourself people pleasing a lot?

    6. WC

      Yep. And people pleasing, we say, is a form of assholery, because you're doing something out of obligation. You know, like what if I said to you, like, "Hey, will you come do my podcast?" And you were like, "Oh, God, I have to do Whitney's podcast."

    7. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    8. WC

      Don't do me the favor, 'cause that's so embarrassing to me. Do you know what I mean? It's like patronizing. It's like, you know, so it's a lot of- it's a lot of people pleasing. You know, they call us the exploding doormats, you know, super nice all the time to everyone, and then one day, you just fucking snap and, you know, you're actually secretly keeping score, you know? It's like- and you're doing it to make other people like you, da-da-da-da. So I had to, like, un- you know, rewire a lot of that shit. I just got a lot of it from my mom. Um, and, like, deprogram what I believed was expected of me.

    9. CW

      Neil Strauss, guy that wrote The Game-

    10. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    11. CW

      ... now, like, fucking reawakened, you know, totally aligned sort of meditation person, it seems. Uh, I saw a tweet from him a couple of weeks ago that said, "Unspoken expectations are premeditated resentments."

    12. WC

      L-

    13. CW

      Jesus Christ.

    14. WC

      Yep. He said, "Co-dependence, uh, breeds resentments." Right, exactly it. So it's like being in relationships and going, like- like little adages. I do well with platitudes. Like, they just do- complicated brains I think do really well with little things.

    15. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    16. WC

      You know?

    17. CW

      Maxims, maxims and aphorisms are a huge way to synthesize down a bigger message into something that you can remember.

    18. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    19. CW

      Right? Like, uh, here is this very large idea about how the story we tell ourselves largely determines our experience of it, because i- if your heart rate's high after you've done a workout, you feel great, but if your heart rate just randomly was high in traffic, you would go to the hospital. And then there's this bit from Marcus Aurelius that says, uh, "The whole universe is change, and life itself is but what we deem it." Life itself is but what we deem it. I think it's, like, nine words, the most profound nine words in philosophy.

    20. WC

      Yep.

    21. CW

      Life itself is but what we deem it. It encapsulates all of this big thing.

    22. WC

      Yep.

    23. CW

      So, like, I understand that quote porn and that f- bukkake-ing people with all of these-

    24. WC

      (laughs)

    25. CW

      ... different, these different references is, I don't know, maybe it- maybe it does get tiresome, but for me, these are the way markers that remind me. It's like a little mantra. It's like, "Right, okay, there's my fucking desire for unproven self-esteem-"

    26. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    27. CW

      "... again." And I remember Ryan Holiday saying, "Self-belief is overrated. Generate evidence." Fantastic.

    28. WC

      Great.

    29. CW

      There we go. I'll just-

    30. WC

      I know what to do.

  10. 53:52 – 1:01:42

    The Beauty of Having a Child

    1. CW

      it was to Chris. Um, uh, having a kid, or maybe it was him, uh, "Having a kid is the opportunity to finally love something that isn't just yourself."

    2. WC

      I can't wait. The clarity that comes with just even being pregnant right now has been s- and the emotional maturity that has come with it, I highly recommend being pregnant, ladies.

    3. CW

      (laughs)

    4. WC

      It really does. Well, 'cause you kinda just go through-

    5. CW

      Pregnancy's a therapy device.

    6. WC

      I know. (laughs)

    7. CW

      That's a fucking hot take.

    8. WC

      I know. (laughs) It really is. Well, because it's like th- I mean, I spend so much time, like, going like, "Should I do this? Do I need to do this?" And I think that I've always had this ticking clock on my brain as a performer. It's like, "I'm a woman. I'm getting older. Am I gonna expire, or am I just gonna get tired?" Like, I know I didn't wanna, you know, work like an animal forever. I knew that, like, in my 20s and 30s, I was like, "I- I'm gonna grind like an animal, and then I'm gonna have a personal life." I always saw it that way. And maybe that's a little bit, like, psycho. I mean, in my 20s, like, I was in a couple relationships that were kinda like two people kind of both trying to avoid intimacy sort of thing, but I wasn't wasting a lot of time dating. I just- I- I didn't know what to do with myself in terms of dating. I know that I wasn't ready to be serious with anybody, and I was like, "Let me just check all these career boxes, and then I'll be able to do the personal life thing." I couldn't manage doing both at once.

    9. CW

      I always remember, I- I- dude, I- I had this thought when I was 16, and, uh, I was doing martial arts. I was doing, like, kung fu or something, and there was this retreat that we went to, and one of the guys that was there was in the army. And Mum had beaten it into me from very early age that I was gonna go to university.

    10. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    11. CW

      First person, I think first person in my family to go to university. Like, fucking big extended family, but one of the only few people to go. And, uh, she'd always said, "You're going to university, you're going to university." But there was this point when we went to this retreat for kung fu, and this guy was there who was in the army, and he was maybe a few years older than me.

    12. WC

      Hmm.

    13. CW

      And he was just explaining about what life was like, and even then, I- I was 16, before social media, before telephones, before anything, right? Wait, not before telephones, before mobile phones.

    14. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    15. CW

      And, um-So a significantly less complex world than the one that we find ourselves in now, and the one that many people that are listening might only know.

    16. WC

      Right.

    17. CW

      And I remember looking at this guy who was explaining about his experience in the army and thinking, "Wow, I would love to do that purely because all of my efforts would be committed to one thing, and I would never need to make decisions about life." And that kind of makes me think about the same energy that's coming from the opportunity to finally love something that isn't yourself. It's like, "All I do, keep this thing alive, make it happy."

    18. WC

      Yep. Yep, yep. And, you know, and it's, it... And really quick, just in terms of the animal thing, I also think that we waste a lot of time, you know, trying to, you know, as we say in program, like, you know, don't try to meet internal needs with external things, you know, whether it's drugs, whether it's alcohol, whether it's people. And for me, I was never a drugs and alcohol person, but I was definitely a people person with, "If I just have this many friends, if this high-status person likes me, maybe I'm worth something. If this guy is attracted to me, maybe that means that I'm not, you know, totally nothing." But, like, having a lot of emotional needs met from animals really did, I think, keep me out of a lot of trouble. And I think we're, you know, I've heard on your show talking about, like, you know, people not dating as much anymore. I know that's in a lot of ways a bad thing, but when you're in your 20s, like, how do you get your emotional needs met so you're not wasting time and hurting other people and hurting yourself being in relationships you shouldn't be in?

    19. CW

      Hmm.

    20. WC

      You know? And I think I kind of accidentally hacked that by fostering dogs. I had, like, all these animals I was always fostering, and I'm, like, crazy dog lady, but, like, at least I didn't have a kid before I was ready. At least I didn't marry someone I sh- had no business marrying, and I feel like that could have happened.

    21. CW

      Right. So you had your emotional needs met by surrogate children.

    22. WC

      Yes. (laughs)

    23. CW

      Furry, furry surrogate children.

    24. WC

      Yes. But now it's like, you know, I gotta say, a lot of the things that I've been working so hard to try to get this clarity of, like, "Am I in this friendship because of obligation? Am I in this friendship because I'm confusing love and pity?" And then you get pregnant, and you're just like, "Yeah, I, I... You're a once-a-month friend. You're not a once-a-week friend." You might be, like, a once-a-year friend, quite frankly. Or, like, "Do I need to buy this person a thank-you gift because they had..." No. I texted thank you. That's enough. You know, there's, like, just sort of a calm-

    25. CW

      Simplicity?

    26. WC

      There's a simplicity that comes over you. Um, there is a relief of bondage of self. Like, you know, what we do for a living, there's just kind of this narcissism you can't escape of, like, I wake up every morning, I'm like, "How can I improve myself today? How can I create something today? What do I need to do to stay relevant?" You know, just, you're like, "You know what? For today, I'm just gonna eat well, I'm gonna take care of myself, and then, like, really commit to all these routines that I've kind of pretended to commit to for so long, you know, in terms of taking care of myself." For me, I, you know, there's a lot of work about, like, the inner child and, like, nurturing your inner... Now that I have a literal inner child, it's kind of-

    27. CW

      Mm.

    28. WC

      It really has all started to come together. So when I see people who have a kid and then their lives just get amazing, I'm like, "Oh, I get that," because you really start walking the walk.

    29. CW

      That's so interesting. It's very illuminating to think about, I don't know, like, the forcing function of the kid bringing all of your bullshit to bear. It's like, look, you can't, you can't be bothering... Uh, again, I heard Chris talk about this when you guys spoke, uh, where he said, um, uh, when he, when his kids were young, his boys would be messaging back and forth in the group chat, "Did you see that such and such a person did this?" And he, and he doesn't even, he's like, "I've not even fucking got time to read this." So, all of the extraneous bullshit gets filtered. But I wonder whether, and I certainly see this with, uh, work, um, I, I saw this with uni as well, that the adrenaline of having something very important and, uh, time demanding and, and on a, a deadline and dependent on you-

    30. WC

      Mm.

  11. 1:01:42 – 1:09:16

    Being Intentional in Relationships

    1. CW

      and part of my 30s that enabled me to be a mother now."Can you remember how much of that was planned in advance and how much of that is you post hoc rationalizing it now and being like, "Well this is a cute story-"

    2. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    3. CW

      "... that puts a bow on the top of this box?"

    4. WC

      Mm-hmm. That's in- that's very interesting. I mean, I think that I, you know, I think that at the time, I presented as one of these women that goes, "Well, I don't want kids." I always said it, "I don't want kid-" which is thou doth protest too much obviously, right? We all become what we hate, whatever. But I definitely presented as, "No, I'm not having kids. I'm focusing on my career. Ugh, like, I'm never gonna..." I mean, I had a TV show that was about how I was afraid of commitment and didn't wanna get married, you know? This was, I was just broadcasting my damage to everybody in some way, maybe to ask to be healed or, you know, whatever it was, or I was, you know, very much, like, kinda grew up in public, so I did get a lot of feedback, which was interesting. Like-

    5. CW

      Hmm.

    6. WC

      ... it's interesting to grow up in front of people and show all your wounds and then have people kind of confront you about them. It was weird. Like, I wanted to get better, I wanted to change, I wanted to grow, but I, I definitely knew I didn't wanna have a family in my 20s. I was like, "'Cause I don't wanna do what my parents did, and I'm too afraid of what's in my... I'm too broken," you know, was my narrative. And then by the time my 30s came around, I was like, I got engaged, wasn't quite right. Um, I was really trying, but I just wasn't b- I wasn't healed yet. I just wasn't healed yet, and I think that I always had, maybe it was my codependence was saving me 'cause I didn't wanna hurt anybody. Like, I really don't wanna hurt anyone. I really, when I'm in relationships and I know it's not gonna...

    7. CW

      Yeah, that's interesting, that you were almost people pleasing the imaginary partner that you hadn't yet met. "I don't wanna hurt them. I know that if I try and do this thing and it's not gonna go well, then they'll be sad, and if they're sad, I'm gonna feel like an absolute fucking piece of shit."

    8. WC

      And I can't fake it. I just, I can't. I can't li- I mean, I think it's being a com-

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