What It Feels Like To Be Headless - Richard Lang | Modern Wisdom Podcast 336

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   You have been under…

   1. RLRichard Lang0:00

      You have been under the deep conviction that you are what you look like, with a head. All right, you've got that going, but now pause and look for yourself and take seriously what you actually experience. There isn't anything here except space for the whole world.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:19

      Sam Harris says that the implications of The Headless Way provide insights into the nature of the mind, which he considers to be among the most important things that he's ever learned. Why do you think that the realization of not-self is so impactful?

   3. RLRichard Lang0:35

      Because it's true. It's just the simple truth. I mean, I'm looking at you, Chris, and I know some people are just listening, but you can imagine, but I see your face, I don't see mine. And I know from the outside we're face-to-face, I understand that, but my own direct experience is face to no face, so I say I've got your face instead of mine. I'm built open for you, and that is verifiable now. I'm not going by what someone has told me, I'm actually just looking and enjoying having your face, and you've got mine, you see, so we call it trading faces. So that is available, it's verifiable, uh, and it's loving actually because you're seeing that you're built open to others and, uh, welcoming the world in your open space here. And all the viewer or listener has to do is, is look for, for their own face, notice you can't see it, you see a bit of your nose coming out of nowhere and there are sensations, right? But they don't add up to this, uh, to a, being inside a, a head. So I, I hardly use the word non-dual. I, I just, um, it, it... That seems to sort of... Because I like the dual as well, you see? Uh, it's important to remain aware of yourself as separate, you see? Well, we've got that, we don't really have to work on that. (laughs) Now, now we, uh, return back to our own point of view and see, you know, are you looking out of two eyes or one opening, you see? And there's one opening and, and y- you can't miss that, I think. You can't actually see your head and you can't do it wrong 'cause you can't sort of half see your headlessness. (laughs) And, uh, y- you know. So, uh, and, uh, The Headless Way, uh, it really started with Douglas Harding back in the 1940s and he was asking the question, "Who am I?" And finally... And he realized, well, there's this model you were mentioning, so, uh, for those who can't see, it's a model with layers. And, uh, Douglas designed this and it shows you that at a certain range, you see, this is you at center, the no-thing, emptiness, your no face, and then at a certain range, six feet, you're a person, but further away, you know, you're a, a city and then a planet and a star and a galaxy or closer to your cells, you see? So this is w- this is verifiable. If someone looked at you and said, you said, "What am I?" I say, "Well, from here, you're Chris, but if I went way up, you'd be the planet Earth. And if I came in close to you, you'd be cells." Now, the question is, what is at the center of all these layers? What are you really? And you're the only one there, you see? I'm pointing right at you. The on- you're the only one there, so you're the only one that can see. But as close as anyone can get, you're almost nothing.

   4. CWChris Williamson3:40

      (laughs) So we've teased, I suppose, The Headless Way and we'll do some experiments in a little bit that will allow the watchers and the listeners to be able to demonstrate this for themselves. How did Douglas discover The Headless Way? You said he was asking himself questions, but he was an architect, right? He wasn't, sort of, out to simply wandering the Earth in a baggy pair of pants.

   5. RLRichard Lang4:03

      No. Well, he was brought up in Lowestoft, in Suffolk, in the Plymouth Brethren, which is a very, sort of, fundamentalist Christian group and, uh, you know, you're, you're told what to believe and what to do. And at 21 he left because he couldn't accept that they were the only path to God just 'cause they said they were, right? (laughs) You know that, uh, that, they didn't like that. If it criticized them on theology, they could have defended it, but you can't defend yourself against, "This is the truth 'cause we say it's true." You know? So he left, but he'd obviously been deeply affected by that kind of dedication to something beyond himself, I suppose you could say, but, uh, he then, uh, uh, qualified as an architect in London and started working as an architect. And he, uh, got interested in trying to understand himself, but h- he wasn't going to go and ask someone else what the truth was about him. He'd done that, you know? So he started looking for himself and he looked scientifically and philosophically and realized he was made of layers, like I've just said, and he wasn't just human and he was made of these billions of little animals called cells. You know, incredible. O- or he was part of society or part of the planet. And then he got married, uh, he moved to India, got a job in India, and then the war broke out, Second World War, and he had developed this idea of h- he was really intensely wanting to find out who he was before he died. You know? It was just, he was just hellbent on that and find out for himself and with all these layers, you know, the nearer you get, the less there is. So it makes sense that there's sort of some kind of nothingness at the center. But then one day he was reading a book on philosophy and came across a drawing by a physicist called Ernst Mach who was-... it was in an article on perception, and the guy had drawn a picture of himself from his own point of view, point of view, first person. So there's a picture of his body and his arms and legs and a big nose and his mustache, but no head. And when Douglas saw this picture, he looked at himself and said, "That's it. I've been trying to get to the center from outside, and now I see I'm at the center looking out, and the center's empty but full." So then he spent the next seven years, uh, writing a book, working on a book to make sense of this in terms of science. He, uh, CS Lewis read it, uh, described it as the work of the ... of highest genius, work of a highest genius, and, um, wrote the preface for it, got published, and then in the following years, I met Douglas in 1970, he developed his experiments for testing this idea that you're not what you look like. You know, at, at 6 feet, you're a person with a head and in the mirror. What are you at zero? And so a simple, you know, experiment of pointing back at yourself is to guide your attention. And he wrote many books, and he explored the implications of this in, in all kinds of areas. Uh, and, uh, me- you know, for the first 20 years after discovering this, he didn't share it, uh, with anyone. I think most people thought he was mad.

   6. CWChris Williamson7:30

      Why?

   7. RLRichard Lang7:33

      Well, partly, he was really involved in writing the book, um, but I don't know. He, uh, uh, whenever he tried to share it with someone, people wouldn't look. They'd just think and say, "You're mad." (laughs) You know? "Of course they've got a head," you know? Well, of course, you have got a head from there. But anyway, in 1964, he shared it with his secretary in his architectural practice, and he then thought, "Oh, I can die now. I've shared it with one person, right?" Sh- and it was a very dramatic sharing. I mean, it, it, uh, the bells of heaven rang, you know, for her, but, um, but then after that, he gradually shared it with more and more people, uh, and more and more. And it gathered momentum in a way, people saying, "Yeah, no, I get what you're talking about, Douglas. Sure, I'm built open." Um, so, uh, and then the more that people, uh, kind of recognized it was true and loving and helpful, uh, the more they shared it as well. So here we are. (laughs)

   8. CWChris Williamson8:38

      What makes it loving and helpful?

   9. RLRichard Lang8:42

      Well, be- uh, you see, uh, it, when you see, when you're with someone else, and you are consciously aware you don't see your own face, then you're attentive to them. You're out of the way. Uh, you, it's very, it's, it's being attentive, and you're seeing that you're built open for them, so you're welcoming. You have their face, you see. You have their ... uh, well, that's, I mean that, and you're recognizing, I suppose, too, that they for themselves, they're also this open space full of you, actually, or whoever. So, uh, it is recognizing, when you see who you are, when you see you're this open space full of the world, then you, uh, must accept everyone else is in the same wonderful condition, which is very, that, that's sort of namaste, um, if you know the, the, the, uh, idea of namaste, you put your hands together to ... a greeting. The two are one. I honor the, the one in you. It's the same as the one in me, you see. Well, that's headlessness, you see. Uh, uh, the, the two, me and you, are one. I've got your face. You've got mine. There's only one consciousness here in that respect. So I, I see Chris, you see, I, I'm getting to know Chris a bit, but I know who you really are, which is this open space.

   10. CWChris Williamson10:04

       What does built open mean? You keep on referring to that.

   11. RLRichard Lang10:08

       Well, y- you see, the thing is, to have the experience and notice you can't see your head and instead you see the world, th- that's almost the simplest way you could say it, but it's a non-verbal experience. So I'm using words just to articulate this non-verbal experience. I can't see my head now. Instead, I see the world. So then I say that is, if I had a head here, I'd be closed. I'd be behind a face. I'd, I'd be separate from you. But I don't have one here for me, so I say I'm built open, but I mean, this is where, you see, you say, if you don't l- you know, if the words I use are not, don't mean anything to you, find your own, because you've got it. You can't see your head. Instead, you see the world. Or when you're driving, you're still and the scenery's moving through you. You see? (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson11:06

       That insight about the fact that you are static and that the environment moves around you, when I first heard you explain that, I had to re-listen to it about five times, and it's one of the most interesting insights that sits at the very forefront of your daily attention. Could you just explain that to people? For the uninitiated that are watching and listening, can you just explain what you mean when you say that you are static and the environment moves around you?

   13. RLRichard Lang11:37

       Yes. Well, the question that I keep coming back to is what are you? Who are you? Where are you living from? That makes all the difference. And if you're living from a thing that is moving through the world, that's one thing, right? And you understand that. That's what you look like. But I say test it out a- and point back at your face and turn around on the spot and see if you turn or the room turns. Now, you knew this as a kid. I mean, you love being s- you know, s- someone spin you around or going on the roundabout because the world goes for a spin.And when you're driving and relaxed, and, uh, you notice that the scenery is moving and you are still, you see. So, uh, the experiment itself is you just point back and turn around on the spot, and you notice that on the other side of your finger, the room is moving, and on the near side, there's no movement. You're still. Now, uh, this is fun. It's true. It's very relaxing, and, uh, you know, if you go for a- a journey, uh, from your point of view, you go nowhere, and your journey come ... your destination comes to you. So in all kinds of ways, you can see how that's relaxing and fun, you know. Or if you're dancing, you know, you're still, and the- the- the- the s- the s- circumstances are dancing or, you know, moving around. And so this is finding ... That is a ... You know, it sounds- sounds superficial. It's not. You're discovering this central stillness where you are. It's always still. It's not ... You know, your mind is moving. My mind is moving all the time, but the place I'm- I'm looking out of and thinking from is still. Now, it's always still. Now, it makes a difference, I would say, really makes a difference, to be aware of that stillness in the midst of movement. It- it's very, uh, relaxing and therapeutic and, uh, yeah. Uh- hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson13:45

       Simply noticing the fact that your visual field is an oval-

   15. RLRichard Lang13:49

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson13:49

       ... it sounds so stupid, but I never realized it.

   17. RLRichard Lang13:52

       I know. People don't. We're in a ... You know all these, uh, myths about people being in a dream, you know, or under a spell by a m- a bad witch or something. "Well, we're in a dream." You know, we think we're looking out two eyes, and, uh ... You look at the whole view now. I mean, uh, people are gonna say, "What? You really mean just actually look at what you're looking at?" Yeah, that's what I mean.

   18. CWChris Williamson14:13

       (laughs)

   19. RLRichard Lang14:13

       Yeah. Right? And w- when you're looking at the actual view, then what you're looking at is most in focus, and then if you have what they call peripheral villi- v- uh, vision, or soft eyes, then you include all the way to the edge of the field of views. So the viewer or listener can do this now. It's rather fun. You know, it's very relaxing. You- you notice all the way, you know, to the edge where it fades out. You can't look at it directly. You're looking directly at the middle of the view, but all the way around to the edge, it fades out. Then you say, "Well, what is above it?" Or, "What is to the left," you see? Or, "What is to ..." There's nothing. Say, "Oh, uh e- ... What do you mean?" And I say, "There's nothing." You can't

2. 15:00 – 30:00

   What is a good…

   1. RLRichard Lang15:00

      ... On present evidence, not memory or imagination, the whole view is floating in consciousness. Just suspended there in the void, you see. Now, this- this is weightless. It's weightless. You're weightless. It's- it's, uh ... Yeah. Brilliant. (laughs)

   2. CWChris Williamson15:19

      What is a good experiment that we can do to introduce people to the headless way, other than the moving through space? What's another-

   3. RLRichard Lang15:29

      Right.

   4. CWChris Williamson15:29

      ... good way to do it?

   5. RLRichard Lang15:30

      Well, the pointing one is a very simple one, and, uh, uh, again, it is testing the idea that you are space for the world, that you're not what you look like. What you look like, you see in the mirror, or other people see, or photographs, and that's a person with a head. But the, uh, hypothesis I'm putting forward is that at center, you for yourself are not a thing. You're no-thinkful of everything. So the way you do this is you get your finger and you point out at something. So the viewer or listener has to take their finger and look along it. So you direct your attention at something. It is ... I- it's worth doing, you know, rather than just listening to me, and when you look along your finger, you look at a thing, and it's got color and shape and s- size and so on, and it's surrounded by other things, you see? Now, let's say you point at your other hand, and it's the same. It's a thing. It's got color and shape and movement, and it's got a background. Now, you point back at where others see your face, so you, uh, turn your finger around, and point. Now, what do you see there? Do you see your head? Do you see any colors or shapes or background? I don't. That's meditation. That's attention to what it's like to be you. And that ... It's as simple as that. You can't get it wrong, you see. (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson16:57

      What is the implication of the fact that your consciousness emanates from a particular spot and it is difficult to be able to observe that spot itself?

   7. RLRichard Lang17:11

      No, I think it's incredibly easy. I- I ... Uh, i- i- ... Things are difficult to observe. You know, I'm looking at y- off your face and, uh, uh, it's so complicated and- and changing all the time, and you know, all of that. But I look back at my no-face and it- it ... What is difficult to see about that? You see, it- it's absolutely obvious. Uh, it's your ... As Zen says, it's your original face, your true face, your no-face. And, uh, yeah. I- I- I don't really understand that question, Chris. It's- it's-

   8. CWChris Williamson17:42

      What's the ... But what's the implication of it? What does it mean that, okay, I-

   9. RLRichard Lang17:48

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson17:48

       ... when I try and observe myself, I can't see it. What's the implication of that beyond-

   11. RLRichard Lang17:54

       But what is ... When you're looking at me, you see, you can't see your own face, right? What do you see instead?

   12. CWChris Williamson18:02

       The bridge of my nose and the inside-

   13. RLRichard Lang18:05

       Yeah.

   14. CWChris Williamson18:06

       ... of my eye.

   15. RLRichard Lang18:07

       Right, and then further out than that, you see my face, right?

   16. CWChris Williamson18:10

       Yes.

   17. RLRichard Lang18:11

       Okay. So you could say instead of your face now, you see Richard's. Yeah? So is there any distance between you and Richard now?Now, you can measure, say, the distance between my eyes, between two things, right? You could, right? But now measure between Richard's face and the no-thing you're looking out of. I mean, there's no way you measure from, right? So, so, the whole world is not distant, it's given right where you are. It's yours. It's yours. You're infinitely rich 'cause, uh, 'cause there, there's no distance from your point of view. It's all in your awareness. So, uh, you know, uh, that is, uh, uh, you've got your sort of invisible arms around the whole universe. It's all in you. It's not distant. Everyone's face is your own, you know? And also, uh, uh, this, the space that you're looking out of is not affected by, you know ... If, if you, uh, make ... Look at your hand, you see, and you see your arm and your shoulder, and so your arm is coming out of the headless ... You know, it's a headless body. Your arm is coming out of your central emptiness here, and, uh, you can see it. Now, you make your hand into a fist and it's tense. Is the central emptiness tense?

   18. CWChris Williamson19:38

       No.

   19. RLRichard Lang19:39

       No. The hand is tense, but nearer to you, where you're looking from, it's tension-free, stress-free, you see, in the midst of stress. Uh, just as the, as it's free of movement in the midst of movement, it's stress-free. Now, to be aware in our busy lives that we're still at center, or to be aware in our stressed lives that we are at center stress-free, that we're coming from a place that is stress-free, that is there. Now, this is meditation. It's no good just thinking about it. You've got to pay attention to it, uh, and, uh, you know, be a- be aware of it. And that's the thing, it's dead easy to see you're headless. But the thing is living from it and practicing it, and, uh, I think you've got to want to. But it's not, not as hard as it might seem. Uh, you've just got to develop the habit, you know. When, when you're around people, start to notice it's face to no face, see? Or when you're on your own, notice your single eye, this, this oval shape of the world disappearing. See my hands disappear into nothing here and then come out again? I- it's fun as well, you see. It's not a somber, you know, uh, thing. It's, it's, it's light and fun, and it's very familiar. I mean, you were like this as a baby, you see, just open. So, uh, you know, or if, if you close your eyes for a moment and just ask yourself how big are you, uh, on present evidence, not from memory, you've got sensations and thoughts and feelings, but I can't say how big I am. And the darkness is just ... You know, how big is the darkness? I can't tell. How big am I? I don't know. So if you're lying in bed, just be aware that you, you, you don't have a size or a shape. It's very relaxing, seeing that. If you open your eyes now, then it's, uh, the world reappears in the great void. (laughs)

   20. CWChris Williamson21:43

       You said that it's not a somber or a super serious way to think about meditation. I think that you've talked about someone referencing Douglas' students or you always being able to know where Douglas' students were because they're the ones that were always laughing.

   21. RLRichard Lang22:00

       Oh, at the Buddhist Society. Now, that, yeah, that was true. Well, yes, yes. It, it ... You see, the thing is, we, we, we have groups, Zoom groups, you know, several a week, and they're free and anyone's welcome to join if you're interested in this and you, you know, you've tried the experiments, but-

   22. CWChris Williamson22:17

       Where should they go for that?

   23. RLRichard Lang22:19

       Go to headless.org and you'll find information about it there, or you can contact me through headless.org. Yeah. So, um, the thing is that, uh, I was saying it about the groups, that the thing is that you ... W- when you see who you are, you realize it's so simple, and everyone gets it, so there isn't a hierarchy. So I'm talking to you as an equal here, you see, because, uh, you know, the space is as obvious to you as it is to me. You'll have a different reaction to it, you see. But to hang out with others who are aware of this and sharing their responses to it, uh, isn't, uh, this sort of hierarchical thing where one person's got it and you've got to listen and write it all down and try and behave. (laughs) It, it's like we've all got it and let's share our different reactions to it. And that's infectious. So, what I'm saying is that one way or another, the thing is to get it going in your life, get into the habit of it, enjoy it, and the more that you're aware of it, the more natural it becomes, and the more it benefits you. You discover, you know, what a, what a, a great, uh, benefit it is to live from this. Yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson23:38

       It seems to me that there's a little bit of a central paradox to try and work out. It sounds like at center we are nothing, and yet at the same time, we are all the universe with its arms wrapped around us. Uh, uh, how can you, can you explain another way for me and the listeners to, to understand how that fits together?

   25. RLRichard Lang24:09

       Well, uh, uh, the thing is to look and see if it's true, you see. That, that's the ... It, it's not primarily about understanding. It's about having a look for yourself and then describing it in the way that you think.So, uh, I'm only using my words to describe this experience, which I'm absolutely convinced is the same for you, um, for everyone. How could it not be? And for all animals, actually. And, uh, so, uh, I would say that looking here, you see we've... Growing up, you learn to see yourself as others see you. When you're a baby, you don't know what you look like. As a child, you're learning to identify with the-

   26. CWChris Williamson24:54

       (phone dings)

   27. RLRichard Lang24:54

       ... i- i- with, with the, um, image in the mirror. I'll turn that off.

   28. CWChris Williamson24:59

       Mm-hmm.

   29. RLRichard Lang25:02

       So as a child, you're learning to find out who you are in society, which is what other people see you to be, and you're learning to look in the mirror and take that image and sort of pre- wear it, and other people are projecting your image back on you, so you take that on board. So by the time you're an adult... You see, when you're a baby, you haven't got that yet. You're just open. You're not self-conscious. You have no idea yet. If I was a baby now and I was looking at you, I wouldn't have any idea what you were seeing, and I'd just be looking, you see? And I wouldn't be feeling self-conscious. And you as an adult would enjoy that, because you would know that I'm not feeling self-conscious, so you'd relax into that, right? It's, it's, it's, uh, infectious. Now as you grow up, everyone, your parents and everyone, reflects back to you what you look like, uh, with the help of the mirror, language. So, uh, by the time you're a child, you're getting a good idea of what you are, but you're still not fixed in the box that you think you're in. You know, y- it's as easy to be a lion as a little boy or girl, you see? 'Cause you're not fixed yet, and your friends are all do- in the same unfixed place as well, so you all play at being lions together, see? Until mom or dad comes along and tells you you're a little boy or a little girl or whatever, you see? You go, "Oh, right, yeah, I forgot." We forget that, that we were so open at the time, but we were, but we know it. We know it. Anyway, by the time you're an adult, uh, you've had, 24/7, feedback of what you look like, and you absolutely take that on board, that you are what you look like at center, for yourself, that you're not open space, you're not no thing, you're a thing. Now, that's really important, obviously, to know, so that you can function and, uh, you know, you know why people are talking to you, you know. You've got this i- understanding of who you are. Now most people, probably, that's it. You've, you... Growing up is finding out who you are in society and then making the best of the cards you've been dealt, see? But what The Headless Way is saying, "Well, actually, it's not the whole story." It's not the whole story about you. You... Now take a fresh look at what it's like to be you. You've got the objective thing going, you see? Which you didn't have as a child or an infant. You've got that going. You don't have to worry about that. You're well aware of what you look like, you s- you know, who you are, your name, where you live, all... You've got that going. Now that you've got that going-

   30. CWChris Williamson27:32

       Mm-hmm.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   You talked about the…

   1. RLRichard Lang30:00

      you see? Wh- when you think... I mean, uh, uh, you, you've been taught that your thoughts come out your brain or somewhere, right? Out of something, you're thinking. Those thoughts are now in your head, you see? "Well, I l- I pay attention, I think of the number 10," I say, "I've no idea where that came from." (laughs) Right? That just came out the great void. They call it the no mind, right? You see? Or think of the face of a friend. What... I mean, where did that come from?It just comes out. So you say, "Oh, okay. Right. I've got the idea, I've got a mind. But when I look for myself, I have no mind, and my mind comes out of that." Now, when you've got the idea that you've got a mind in your head, it's a very busy place. I mean, there's a lot going on in a tiny spot. You know, your head, a busy mind, you know? "Oh, my, my head's so busy, it's so full," you see? That's the way we describe it. You pay attention, and, uh, y- your thought's coming out nowhere. They're out of great space. You're free of your thoughts where you are. You've got lots of thoughts. I mean, actually, it, it improves creativity because you're not kind of limiting yourself. So, uh, th- this is, uh, then, uh, you see, uh, uh, you start with the experience, you go straight to the experience, and then you explore what it means to you. And that's where it's so much fun to be with others, because you get to hear what they think as well.

   2. CWChris Williamson31:37

      You talked about the mirror then looking back. Are there any experiments that people can do using a mirror if they're near one now?

   3. RLRichard Lang31:43

      Yes. Oh, yes. You get a mirror, or you can use your phone, you know, the selfie thing, and, uh, you hold it in your hand and you look down your arm and, uh, you, you ask yourself, (laughs) it's incredibly simple, "All right, I see my face there," like I can see it on the screen, you see? "I see my face out there at the far end of my arm," 'cause I'm holding my hand out with the mirror or the phone. "Now, do I see a face at the near end? No. My arm disappears into open space. That, my mirror shows me where my face is. It's out there on the screen, out in you, out in the mirror, in the phone, but not at my center." You see? And what we do when we grow up, we... You see, the baby doesn't import that image. The baby look- is another... The infant, it's another infant. It's not you. And you've got to learn to put that face on. So, what you do in imagination is you reach in, get hold of your little face there, pull it out, imagination, flip it the other way around 'cause it's facing the wrong way, make it bigger 'cause it's tiny, and you gotta marry it to these sensations, you know? 'Cause you can feel your mouth, but you can't see your mouth, right? And in the mirror you can see your mouth, but you can't feel it. Now, if you wanna know where to put your food, you got to marry the image to the sensation, right? Here it comes into the air, hang on. You see? So you learn to map that image in the mirror onto these sensations and your back and your foot and... Great. Great. But, you know, the image always... When you do the experiment, you say, "Oh, okay, the image is there and I'm here." I am not my image. You know, we all want, "Hey, stop defining me." You know? All right, well, stop defining yourself. That's the... You know? See that you're undefined, then other people can define you till their heart's content 'cause it doesn't stick.

   4. CWChris Williamson33:50

      I like the experiment of thinking about what it's like to look at a child, especially a- a- an infant or a baby. And you are right, there's an odd sense of freedom releasing when you are with another creature that doesn't see you in the same way that you think other people see you. And I think that's the interesting thing about self-consciousness, right? It's not... Self-consciousness isn't, "I'm conscious of myself," it's, "I'm conscious of other people being conscious of me."

   5. RLRichard Lang34:23

      Yes, that's right. You only know yourself through others. That's right. And so, uh, the baby, uh, i- is, is not feeling self-conscious, you see? They're just not got a head on yet. Just open, you see? A- and that's very still in a baby when a baby's not, you know, hungry or something. They're just very still and attentive and not self-conscious, you see? Well, we can't go back to that, uh, but we can go on to awakening, to, uh, having no face for ourselves, you see? And then it really makes a difference because you'll never control what people think of you or how they see you, but you can control whether or not you identify with it, you know? You can p- pay attention now to the place you're looking out of and, uh, like in that game with the guess the name of the film star on your forehead, you can't see, you know? You're undefined for yourself. You can't define yourself. So, but take that seriously, you see? "For me, I'm undefined. Now, I, I cannot be pinned down for me." Now, that makes a big difference when everyone's trying to pin you down. You're, you're, you're... It's a Sanskrit term, you're unpinnable down.

   6. CWChris Williamson36:03

      (laughs) Is that the, is that the technical terminology?

   7. RLRichard Lang36:05

      Yeah, that's the technical term. (laughs)

   8. CWChris Williamson36:09

      (laughs) Talk to me about how the students that you've worked with and the groups that you've worked with, what are some of the ways that realizing that they're headless has helped people in their daily lives? You've already identified it takes a little bit of time to go from perhaps a conceptual realization to building it up into a habit so that you notice it throughout the day, but I imagine that-... identifying with negative thoughts and emotions and, uh, inner monologues and labels from other people and nervousness and self-consciousness. I imagine that these are some of the primary places that it assists people, at least in their daily experience.

   9. RLRichard Lang36:49

      Yes. I mean, first of all, I don't have students, I have friends, uh, which is an important point really, uh, th- that we're equal. And, uh, uh, I can't see this space more clearly or less clearly than anyone else, and anyone else's response to it is as valid as mine and vice versa. So it's a sharing of equals. And, uh, this makes... This really, uh, amongst the people that I know, and I, I know lots of people who are living from this and exploring its benefits or finding out h- how it's beneficial in their lives. I mean, it just, it helps in almost every way you, you can think. Um, I don't know where to start really. Uh, um, you know, you, you... It, it's somehow self-evident. You've found home. You found home. You're not seeking anymore. You, you find it. You, you found home. Now, e- even if the world go, goes to hell in a handbasket, which it might well do, you know, you... Internally, you found home. You're at home because the world is at home in you. You're seeing that you are c... You know what I mean? It's just incredible. You're not a thing in the world for yourself, you're the space in which the world is happening. That is safe, you see? So you're recognizing... It's kind of trying to get used to having won the lottery. (laughs) You know, you can't spend it all at once, but, you know, like you've won the lottery, right? Now, st- enjoy it, or live it or, you know, uh, k- keep coming back to it. Uh, you could only be aware of it now, right now, you know? It's not about, you know, stretching it out. It's just available now. And so I am noticing that this conversation is unfolding in this space. And, uh, you are a guest in my awareness, right? As is the trees out the window and the bird. It's a very friendly, uh, uh, place to come from. And, uh, it... Because we have grown up being educated in the opposite, that the world is strange and separate and over there, and people are not me, and we're all strangers and I'm gonna die and all, all of that. Uh, so, uh, now you are discovering the opposite is also true. That's true, but the opposite is also true. So you go, "Wow. Okay, I'm... Let's... Hope I live a long life to sort of drink this deep," you know? A- and apply it and explore it and keep coming back to it. And finding other people, if I want to, you know, who are, uh, e- uh, e- exploring this, living from this as well, you know? So, uh, I think, um, I, I think also, I suppose one learns to, gradually learns to trust it somehow. You know? Uh, you... What, w- who are you? You, you say, "Well..." There's, um, there's a story by Rumi, uh, the Persian poet. Um, I read this. Douglas found this. Douglas Harding. And, um, a dervish, a saint comes out of the desert or out the, you know, into the village and the, the guy in the village recognizes he's a saint, you see? Someone who's aware of who he really is, like this, you see? An- and do you know when, uh, y- you're by the water and the sun's going down, the light of the sun comes across the water to you? No, not to anyone else, right? It doesn't go across the water to Fred, it goes to you, to the source, right? And, um, so anyway, the guy comes out of the desert and, and, uh, the villager said, "Uh, oh, okay." You know, he recognizes him as a saint. He said, "How are you? How are you?" And the guy said, "You're asking me how I am? Me, for whom the sun rises, the rivers flow? You see, the sun comes across the water to me, and even the sun glinting on, uh, you know, somebody's tooth doesn't happen without my permission, because I'm the source, you see? I'm the center, the still, still center with it turning round. I'm the one, you're asking me how I am? Oh, I'm all right, thanks." (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson41:59

       (laughs)

   11. RLRichard Lang42:01

       Yes. You see, as who you really are, you are all right, thanks. As Richard, I'm not, you know? Uh, uh, uh, but as who I really am. Now that, you know, you, you... Who in their own estimation is all right really all the time? I haven't met anyone and I think they'd be rather deluded if they did think they were. You see? We have to live with this, uh, you know, crazy situation of being a human being where we're always making mistakes and trying our best but, you know, very limited.So, I mean, self-awareness is a- is at least in some part is accepting that you put your foot in it, you know? But who you really are doesn't put its foot in it. Who you really are, uh, your true nature, see, is, is just all right, more than all right. And so it is a great balance to awareness of your limitations as a person, to being aware of, of your, the perfection of who you really are. And there, there's always this to-and-fro between your awareness of who you are as a person, born and will die, but your true nature was never born and will never die. So there's a great kind of counterbalance. Or your human nature is stressed, but your true nature's unstressed. We did that experiment, you know? So that, it's not denying the stress. It's balancing it, you see, with the truth. Or, you know, your human nature is always in motion, but your true nature is still. So have that, you know, move back and forth if you like between those two poles of the battery, between those two sides of yourself rather than just focusing on one.

   12. CWChris Williamson43:47

       It's interesting that you brought up life and death there. I wondered whether the headless way had any implications for the shortness of life. It's something that a lot of philosophies and people deal with, the fact that if you are this nothing and everything, if the universe has its arms wrapped around you, you don't want that to go away.

   13. RLRichard Lang44:07

       Well, first of all, you say, "If you are." Well, I am. I see I am. It's not an if, it's a, it's a I am. So that's one thing. Got to put you right there. And, uh, the other thing is, is that you c- you're, it's the, that balance of opposites really. Your human nature is, you know, short, you know, it's brief. It comes and who knows how long you're going to last? And we live with that every day. Everyone does. So there's that reality. Uh, uh, but there's your true nature, which is not in time. I look from the timeless into time. The space isn't in time, and that embraces everything. So you see there's this balance between this insecurity and uncertainty and brevity potentially of your human life or of life, you see.

4. 45:00 – 51:02

   Can you remember what…

   1. RLRichard Lang45:00

      And your unchanging eternal nature is who you really are, which is empty, full, always full of something. And that helps me cope better with the very real fact that I'm going to die and that, uh, you know, lots of bad things happen, uh, in the world. Um, this is, you see, not a kind of... I'm not trying to sell a philosophy. It's saying look for yourself and then describe it, you know. But I say, you know, one of our experiments is, is the time one, you, you know, you, you, you're looking out into time. It's a certain time in, you know, ten to seven or something, whatever it is. Now, what time is it where you are? Well, time and change go together, don't they? It, it, this meeting has, uh, lasted so far 50 minutes, and it's ch- it, it's changing all the time. That's time, right? Now, where you are, do you see anything changing? No. Where there's no change, there's no time, and I look from the timeless into time. You get the best of both worlds. So you're not in denial of either your timefulness or your timelessness.

   2. CWChris Williamson46:26

      Can you remember what it's like to be headed?

   3. RLRichard Lang46:30

      Of course. I, I, I'm aware of it every day all the, you know, just like everyone else. But I am also with my headlessness. That's the difference. So i- i- it's not like you... I mean, what on earth would it be like not to be aware of your head? You'd be gaga, wouldn't you? You'd have to be taken to the hospital. You wouldn't be able to talk. You, someone would look at you and you, you wouldn't know they were looking at anything. Like the baby, right? Baby is neat taking care of. But I've got my head on, uh, and now I'm seeing I, I, for myself, I don't, and I distinguish. But, you know, I'm, I, uh... I think that, you see, the thing is, that when you see you're headless you don't suddenly become headless. You realize you've always been headless. It's not suddenly, "Oh, you know, I, I, all the way up to my life till now I've had a head and now I don't." You realize, "Oh, no. I've never had one here. Out there in the mirror in others, in my own, you know, self-consciousness, but right here where I am, I've never had one." Now you say, "Well, actually, even though I didn't know it for my whole life, I've never had one. I've always been open. I just didn't know it." Then you think, "Well, actually that's true of everyone." Everyone. No one can see their own head. Everyone is living from their true nature. So that's why we don't go mad, because we're actually living from this. And when we drop our guard and relax, you know, we're naturally headless, you see. If we don't feel threatened when we're with a baby, you see, we naturally drop our defenses and that surface that separates us, you see. But now you can do it consciously. You don't have to, you know, wait for the kind of conditions.

   4. CWChris Williamson48:31

      I wonder whether that is one of the attractions that people see with spending time with babies, with spending time with pets and animals, spending time in nature.That level of serenity and the lack of neuroticism, focusing your thoughts about thoughts on yourself, being pulled out into what it is that you see around you without seeing something that sees you as you.

   5. RLRichard Lang48:57

      Oh, yes. That's right. Yes. That's... You... Th- that's right. A- And that is your natural headlessness, you see. Whe- when you're relaxed, uh, when you're with a baby, when you're in nature, when you're not being, you know, under inspection, being looked at, th- then you are headless, in my terms. But the thing is, uh, you can enjoy that when you're in a crowd. You can consciously notice you're headless in space, uh, for the world. Now, that is really useful. Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson49:38

      Richard Lang, ladies and gentlemen. Headless.org.

   7. RLRichard Lang49:42

      That's right.

   8. CWChris Williamson49:43

      If people want to keep up to date. And also, you've got a awesome new video on your YouTube channel-

   9. RLRichard Lang49:50

      Yes.

   10. CWChris Williamson49:50

       ... um, which will be linked in the show notes below. Any other things that people should check out?

   11. RLRichard Lang49:54

       Well, if you're really interested, uh, to meet others, if you've done some of the experiments and the headless experiences is meaningful to you, I suppo- I would say, and you want to meet others who are, uh, living from this, we have lots of Zoom meetings, free ones, each week. So there's a community online of people who are, uh, living from this, and it's very friendly. So through the website, you can get in touch with me and I can give you information. And, uh, you're welcome. Yeah. So, um, I think that's probably my... Th- th- that's probably the information to give out. Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson50:38

       Amazing. Richard, thank you so much.

   13. RLRichard Lang50:40

       Thank you. Nice to meet you. Nice to have your face, Chris.

   14. CWChris Williamson50:43

       (laughs)

   15. RLRichard Lang50:44

       Nice to be, Chris.

   16. CWChris Williamson50:45

       And you.

   17. RLRichard Lang50:46

       (laughs)

   18. CWChris Williamson50:46

       Nice to be, Richard. Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe. It makes me very happy. Peace.

Episode duration: 51:07