Modern WisdomWhat It Feels Like To Become Famous | David Birtwhistle | Modern Wisdom Podcast 207
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
85 min read · 16,614 words- 0:00 – 0:30
Reality TV alumni banter and framing the conversation
- CWChris Williamson
(wind blowing) Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back. I'm joined by David Birtwhistle. David, welcome to the show.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Hey, how's it going, mate?
- CWChris Williamson
Very good. Blue tick wanker club in the building.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Yeah. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
What the fuck's happening?
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Reality TV wanker club, here we are.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
(laughs) Hey, we've joined, joined an elusive club of people that are known for probably the wrong reasons. (laughs)
- 0:30 – 3:01
Inside Too Hot to Handle: filming, delay, and Netflix’s global blast radius
- CWChris Williamson
Known for, known for all of the wrong reasons, I think. Yeah, you are very correct. Um, so today one of the things I wanted to speak about, a lot of people will know you from a recent Netflix series which was called ...
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Too Hot to Handle.
- CWChris Williamson
Too Hot to Handle. Talk me through that then. Talk me through the experience of being on that, 'cause yours, unlike Love Island, which was my experience on reality TV, yours was a pre-record, right? You were on that a while ago, and now it's just come out.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Yeah, we recorded it in 2019, in, um, April. So, it was a long time ago, and then it came out like a year later. So, um, yeah, the experience of actually filming it was awesome. Like, the show itself, the produc- the production team were great and the cast were great, and I actually had a really good time. So like coming out of it, I already thought to myself like, "If this doesn't do very well in the ratings or anything, like I've already gained personal experience from this that's gonna like help shape my life a little bit." So, that was really cool. And then yeah, like a year later the show launches worldwide on Netflix and it explodes and like, yeah, it just, it was like number one in 10 top countries for like a week.
- CWChris Williamson
Jesus Christ. (laughs)
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Crazy. Yeah, like America, the UK, South Africa, Australia, uh, Japan, Italy, like loads of places, Brazil. Uh, it, it just exploded. It was absolutely mental.
- CWChris Williamson
It's funny that it's distributed geographically, 'cause usually like Love Island or Big Brother or whatever is broadcast on a network within a country, and that means that the people that know about the cast members and the storylines, uh, geographically quite confined. Whereas this situation is so dispersed. You're talking about people in fucking Italy, (laughs) like America, like everyone, everyone knows a little bit, but do you know what I mean?
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Mate, it's crazy. It's absolutely crazy. There's like ... Yeah, it, it, it really is a worldwide audience, you know? Like people that comment on my posts and that engage with me on social media are from everywhere, like Taiwan, uh, Korea, Russia, you know, New Zealand, Australia, Kenya, literally like all over the world. And it is mental to think that that many people of different origins have seen my face.
- CWChris Williamson
Fuck.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
It's crazy.
- CWChris Williamson
Power of Netflix, man. Power of Netflix, obviously.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
I know. They exploded it. It was, it was crazy.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Crazy, crazy, crazy.
- 3:01 – 7:43
The big misconception: followers don’t automatically mean money or success
- CWChris Williamson
They're, uh, they're a bunch of beasts. Talk to me about what, um, what some of the lessons that you've learned then since either from being on the show or from, uh, coming, like it being released and then you're reflecting, uh, upon this kind of ascension into notoriety.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Uh, I think that the main lesson that I've learned is that even if you have massive exposure, i.e. a big social media following, it doesn't mean that you're necessarily making a lot of money, firstly, and it doesn't necessarily set you up for success. Um, I think there's this big assumption that if you've got a lot of followers then you're somewhat successful. And although you might've done something very cool or good in order to achieve that follower count, um, you know, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're actually a successful business person or you've got all life figured out or anything like that. And so it was, it's almost like we kind of set ourselves up because of the way the world is at the moment to think that someone who has a lot of followers is killing it. And they might not be, you know? Like you have to have a business. You have to chase it.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
You have to work hard for it. Like, you know, I've, I came out of, of filming and then worked for a whole year to set up my, uh, coaching brand Endeavor Life, put hours and hours and hours and thousands of pounds into that. And since this show's launched, I've like constantly been thinking like, "What can I do? Who should I be speaking to? Who should I, who should I talk to?" Like podcasts, you know? This is a prime example, like speaking to you today. Like-
- CWChris Williamson
Chris fucking Williamson, that's who you should be speaking to, man.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
(laughs) Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
You know, like speaking to the right people, engaging with the right things, and also thinking like, "How can I actually create a business or how can I have some longevity here and be smart about this?" And that's not something that just happens. Like it's the same as any business. Effectively, you have to work really hard to make something happen. You just have marketing. So like a social media channel or page or whatever that's really big is effectively just a marketing platform. And if you have that, it d- you might be terrible at marketing and no one wants to buy anything off you, and therefore you have a shit business.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
So it's, um, just because you have the following doesn't mean that you're gonna be successful. And that is, it's interesting. It's interesting being in the position of before and after, and now I'm like, "Well yeah, but the things I wanna do, no one's gonna hand that to me."... you know, I'm gonna have to create everything and work hard. And it's effectively just given me like a little bit of the step up obviously, and like I do get opportunities that I wouldn't have got before. But you still have to work for it. You know, it's not that things are given to you. You still have to do the thing and you still have to work hard. And, um, those values that were instilled into me by my parents, like I can't sit back and coast now because it's an opportunity that I've gotta grab with two hands and work to make the most of. And, um, you know, it's a privilege and I, I can't really squander that. So I think like the, that's the biggest thing I've, I've learned is that, you know, before being a blue tick wanker-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
... and (laughs) before having a bunch of exposure, you know, uh, I was there in the same position as everyone else thinking, "Oh, that person must be making so much money." And like people throw random numbers around like, "Oh, so-and-so got paid X amount for their campaigning thingy. And oh, yeah, they make this much money." And like, I mean, some people make a killing on social media, but it's still a job. It's, it's a job, it's a business, it's a career, and you have to work for it. And if you don't work for it, then you will fall by the wayside. People will not be interested in you. Companies will not want to work with you. And if you're not the right person, it's just not gonna be very long term for you. So that's, it's been really interesting to kind of see that coming from before and after. Um, so I think like that's definitely a misconception.
- CWChris Williamson
No, I couldn't agree more, man.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Like people-
- 7:43 – 13:24
Traffic vs connection: why shallow fame feels hollow
- CWChris Williamson
I think, I think the, um, what people that look at reality TV or the ascension of celebrity and fame in 2020, what most people see from the outside looking in is such a different world to what's going on inside, and it's, it's fucking cliche to be like, "Oh, you know, everybody's got their challenges and stuff like this." But it's, it's more than that. What I really wanted to kind of try and delve into today with you is to talk about what gives you sort of satisfaction and happiness and stuff in life now. And the same for me as well. I'm in a unique position. We're both in the unique position that we've both had periods where most of a country or a couple of countries have known our names and known our faces. And to a lot of people, that sounds like you've made it, right? But fame for no reason, like because it is fame at any cost. It's fame for essentially just existing. I'm sure that you were like great on the show and came across as a nice guy, but there is probably like 3.5 million nice guys out there.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Like that, that doesn't separate you at all. And what this ties into is what you're saying there about the fact that you can have a big audience, but if they don't actually connect with you, all you've got is just traffic. Like traffic is, traffic is great, but if you send tons and tons of people to a site that's talking total shit, i.e. an account which doesn't have any virtue behind it, doesn't really care about what it's putting out there, is essentially only skin deep, then, uh, uh, no one's gonna monetize on the back of it. No one's gonna connect on the back of it. Like I, I said this story before, and you may, you may have like some equivalent stories as well about like, so, so many people, all that they wanted to talk about as soon as I came off Love Island was, "Oh, man, like you must be fucking... You must be smashing it now. There must be just like loads of birds. Um, you must just be... You're making loads of money, are you? Are you making loads of money?" And you're like, "Bro, what the fuck do you think this is?" Like I'm, I'm not Dan Bilzerian. Like come on, for fuck ...
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... love Island? Got a, got a blue tick and gone back to my normal life. Like the vast majority of stuff doesn't change. And as you said, unless you stay relevant, nothing, i- i- it goes away very quickly.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Yeah. Yeah, you do. You're completely right. Um, it's interesting. It's really, really interesting. So I think like what is, what is, what's your, what are my values and how does it correlate? Well, like people knowing who you are, right? So like that is, you know, some people throw the word, "Are you famous?" A bit. And I'm like, "Nah, peop- some people just know who I am." Right? That's it. I don't think of it as anything else. Um, I don't assume that anyone knows who I am. I, it doesn't matter. And, um, effectively, yeah, there's a bunch of nice guys out there. Uh, and that's, that's cool. And I, I really just, I'm trying to just dive into who I am as a, as a human being and, um, use this as an opportunity to, to share some of the positive things that I think I've learned with the world and effectively give value to people through social media. 'Cause like it, it honestly, one of my biggest piss- like one of the things that pisses me off the most is influencers putting up a picture of themselves and the caption being some semi-philosophical, half-hearted, complete bollocks that they don't live into.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. (laughs)
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Like, like just like a sentence, and it's like sounds somewhat philosophical, but you know that they do not fully believe, live into, and act upon that thing.
- CWChris Williamson
But, but they've, they've found that, or they've googled mindful quotes.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Inspirational quotes, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Inspirational quote, and then copied and pasted it. Man, I, I'm totally part of, uh, team influencer dickhead hatred here along with you.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
We're standing in the fucking... We're standing in the vanguard. We've got William Wallace. He's on his horse riding up and down, "Hold! Hold!"
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
He is. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
And then there's me and you going, "You're a fucking cunt, and you're a fucking cunt, and you're a fucking cunt." But, uh, uh, you're totally right, man. Like I said this-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
It's just true. Uh, uh, it is.
- CWChris Williamson
... I, I said it eight years ago, when, when you get a platform of any size, any size at all...... you should take increasingly seriously the quality of the message that you're putting out because the impact it has, has proportionately gone up.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Like when, when you have three people that know who you are and what you do, say what you want. It doesn't impact that many people. If you're Elon Musk, you better be delivering some value on a second by second basis because you affect and impact so many people. And that's why, as you've said there, when you see someone who does have a really big platform, and I- I'm not gonna name names because I can't be arsed with the fucking blowback, but everybody knows, like pick your, pick your, like, irrelevant reality TV star from the last 15 years and it's probably them. And, um-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... like, those pe- like you have a platform, you have the opportunity to add genuine value to people's lives. Uh, you don't need-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... to be a- a fucking closet philosopher about this sort of stuff, but you can get behind causes that actually mean something as opposed to just, like, yet another advert for charcoal toothpaste.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
(laughs) How does the world need that much charcoal toothpaste? I-
- CWChris Williamson
I don't know, man. I- I don't-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
It's very disrespectful.
- CWChris Williamson
... I don't think they need any, but apparently they actually need ... they need loads. So you said, um-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Loads and loads.
- 13:24 – 15:33
What actually brings happiness: human interaction over numbers on a screen
- CWChris Williamson
... you said some of the things that you've learned, uh, sort of about life and- and satisfaction and things that make you happy, so what are they?
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Yeah. Well, all right, so the f- I think the core thing that I learnt is that it's all about human interaction. Like your life's all about human interaction, it's about connecting with people. It's- it's- it's- it's not about numbers on a fucking screen. Like I was ... it was, we were in lockdown, the show came out, and I'm sat at home refreshing my Instagram, watching my following count go up and not feeling a fucking thing. I- I did not care, and I was so confused. I'm sat there like, "I should be happy. People tell me that I should be happy." People make a big thing about followers and how that's important and how you're successful and- and I was literally, like, talking to my mate thinking, "Mate, I do not ... it doesn't affect me." The- the numbers on the screen, they don't mean anything. What means something is human interaction and connection and connecting with people and impacting people, affecting people positively. Like leave the world better than when you arrived. So for me like it- it became so abundantly clear because we're in lockdown and I've got this crazy juxtaposition of the show blowing up, social media exploding, and it being deadly silent outside. And having, um, like th- that kind of period of lockdown was like my lowest time as an adult, as- as an individual to how I felt. I was flat, I was demotivated, I was just not happy and I wasn't ... because I wasn't able to engage with people. Like I'm a- I'm a social person, like I'm an extroverted person, like I buzz when I'm around others and when I can connect with people and when I can i- like see them and affect them and things like that. And I'm sat at home and I'm like, "I- I ... there should be the ... like my life is changing, why don't you care?" And it's because I was.
- CWChris Williamson
But would you have been, um, would you have been any different-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
I wasn't seeing anyone.
- CWChris Williamson
... would you have been any different had you been around people? Do you think that you would have suddenly taken a load of value from the followers going up then?
- 15:33 – 16:54
Recognition vs impact: the moment that made it real
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
I think that really what is the ... where is the value that you get? Like for me it's, it's ... uh, all right, so, you know, every now and then people recognize me when I'm out and about, yeah. But like this weekend, there's a- a person that stuck out, and there was ... you know, I think probably I went out on Saturday just in Clapham and probably like 10 or so people, groups of people recognized me. But this one woman came up to me and she was like, "Hey David, um, I just wanted to say I'm a really big fan. I love your positivity and what you're putting out on social media. I think it's really great. Thank you so much." And I was like, "Oh my God, that's so sweet. What's your name?" And she told me her name was Fiona. And I started, "Fiona, thank you so much. You've literally just made my night. Like that's so sweet of you to- to come up and be so humble and, like, have that conversation with me." And, like, that- that meant a lot because I could see the effect, the positive effect that I'm having on her from putting out content that I think a lot about. Um, like that is more impactful because I can see that person. It- it becomes real, you know? So that's, um, that's the difference. I don't care about someone being like, "Oh, you're that bloke off- off- off that show."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Like that means nothing. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Like to be noticed doesn't mean anything. But to see impact, that means something. So-
- 16:54 – 24:24
Re-coupling fame with merit: ‘be known for doing something’
- CWChris Williamson
Dude, that- that's it. That's it there. So you have defined the territory as far as I can see there. Let me, let me see if I can do a little bit of sense making from some things that have been floating around in my head, and maybe some of this stuff will land with you.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
All right.
- CWChris Williamson
So, um, the problem that I have with most reality TV, and I appreciate I'm a massive part (laughs) of this problem having been on it, is that people are chosen as the lowest common denominator and the lesson that it teaches is that fame and notoriety by any means is all that matters. What I mean by that is a perfect example, Tommy Fury, fantastic boxer, worked his entire life to be a good boxer, made his name by existing as an all right looking lad with a bit of a tan on TV for a while. His talent had absolutely nothing to do with his fame, so the decoupling of talent from notoriety has removed the value that fame used to give us. The reason that people used to be famous is because they'd done something. Now, people are famous for simply existing, and the problem with that, as you've identified, is that it leaves you with a very, very hollow sensation.... because you know that the fame could have been taken by someone else. Had there have been another David doing that thing at that time on the show, they would have got the same as you, the same as me, the same as Chris on Love Island, all the rest of it. However, when you do something which is both challenging and worthwhile, like grinding away on a business and putting thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours into it for a year, or creating, uh, social media content that you feel is a true representation of your inner logos, the way that you believe the world to be and you hope that it helps someone else make sense of it, and then they come up and tell you, that is a sense of satisfaction derived from something which is closer to your higher calling. And I think what I really want people to take away from this is what you said when you were watching your follower count go up as just this arbitrary fucking number, numbers on a screen. And had that have been, had you have got 1.3 million followers from constantly putting out, like, just amazing content that tons of people resonated with, you would have first off selected for a ridiculously mindful audience that re- super, super aligned with what you think and what you feel. But also you would be, y- you would feel so much more, uh, close to them because it would be due to your higher calling, right? So this, this fame and notoriety by any means I think leaves ... It, it, first off, it gives off the wrong impression to the people that watch because they presume that that's something to aim for. "Uh, don't, don't worry about h- about what I'm famous for, just get me famous." Right? Like-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And the problem is, a perfect example of this is, like, fucking, I think Conor McGregor and Elon Musk and Kendall Jenner and, uh, you know, some other person have probably all got the same number of followers, but they've got there from very, very different ways. Like-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... you can't have one currency that equates, uh, multiple people from, uh, uh ... one metric of success which equates multiple people within different domains of competence. Like, Elon Musk, a- a- as lovely as Conor McGregor is, Elon Musk is worth 10 Conor McGregors because Conor's not gonna fucking get this species to Mars. Like, but because people have this now ubiquitous social currency that they can use, "Oh, David's, David's at 1.3 but this other guy that was on the show's only at 800. That must mean that David's fucking 1.5 times as much as this person." Do you know what I mean? Like, I, I don't know. That's, that's just a conception that I've had in my mind, that, like, decoupling of w- uh, notoriety from fame by any means to actually trying to bring it back to it being, "Oh, right, be famous for something." Want to be-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... want to be someone. You know? Want to do something.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Yeah. Dude, that's, that is so spot on. That is so spot on. You've, uh, you've very eloquently delivered the information in an understandable way. Like, that's, that was really, that's brilliant. Um, and actually that's something that I'm, like, you know, thinking, thinking now is like post, post-show, like, what is it ... Now I'm asking myself this question. Like, what is it that you're gonna do? What is it that you are going to do to impact and, and be known as? 'Cause just being known ...
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Who gives a fuck about just being known?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, mate.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
It's about doing something. So, like, already, like, obviously I'm, um, you know, doing a lot of stuff in, in health and fitness, and that's something that I already, like, have. Like, I am a coach first and foremost. Like, I'm a coach. I've been a coach in health and fitness industry for 10 years, and it's not something that I plan on stop doing. But I'm thinking, like, what else can I do to, to, to do more? You know. So you're so right, and it's such a shame that fame has been decoupled from talent, um, and there's so many people with massive followings that talk absolute shit-
- CWChris Williamson
They don't deserve it, man. We kn-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
... and leave the world ... No, it, it (laughs) -
- CWChris Williamson
We know that, we know that they, they don't deserve it. And this is, don't deserve it in the purest sense of the word. And what I mean by that is that there is literally large swaths of the population who would do better with that platform. Like-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... when I see people that are plucked out of the, the, the mire (laughs) , the, the muck and the fucking feces and the straw on the floor in, in the, the back carriage and they get brought up to first class and they get this huge platform, and then they, they squander it with just bullshit-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... I'm like, "Do you know what it is? That's someone that could have done something but instead wanted to be someone." And that, that to me, as you, but, m- it would appear me and you agree on, like, don't desire being someone. Desire doing something.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Right. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And if you can become someone that people know because you have done something that resonates with them and that you felt compelled to do and feels like a high calling, that is when those two things marry. Fame should be because you have done something valuable and virtuous and worthwhile that adds value and makes people feel better and leaves the world a better place than when you arrived. If that's where your fame has come from, fucking power to you. And if someone gets a platform like yours now and then uses that to leverage your message, which should have been heard, uh, one about health and fitness, one about living virtuously, one about mindfulness, one about being, uh, leaving the world a better place than when you arrived, or what- whatever it is that you're working on at the moment, if you use a huge platform to then further leverage that message, that it gives you even more returns, again, power to you. But if you do it the other way, like if, if you don't have a platform and you're just chasing being someone, and if you become someone without doing something, and then choose to just...... spaff it away (laughs) like just, like, wasting it away.
- 24:24 – 26:49
Intentions matter: narcissistic validation vs using a platform to serve
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Well, I, I think it all, I think it all comes from, like, what your initial intentions are, right? Like, where does this all come from? And a, a lot of what I've realized in life is that, yeah, there are some dead fast, like, things that it doesn't matter what your intentions were, they're wrong. But there's a lot of things where actually it's the intention behind the action as to whether it's right or wrong to do it, right? So, like, let's just take becoming famous. And you just kinda said it in a way there which is easy to understand. Like, why do you want to become famous, or why do you want to be known? Is it because you just want people to know your name, so you walk into a room and people look at you and they go, "Oh, that girl." So you know that-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
... people know who you are because you need some narcissistic validation-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
... about who you are 'cause you don't have any self-confidence and you're completely void of any, like, internal happiness and you just need someone to validate you every fucking minute.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
T- that doesn't necessarily ... That wouldn't be the real, the best, best reason why to become famous or to be known. But do you want to use an opportunity to develop a platform in order to better enrich other people's lives, or to create change, or to share a message? 'Cause, like, truth be told, I did this show because I knew, fingers crossed, it would give me a platform to be able to do exactly what the fuck I'm doing now. Like, that was it apart from it was gonna be a great opportunity to do something and tell my friends and have a story to look back on and be like, "Yeah, that was fucking cool." But also because I was already doing the exact thing I'm doing right now before the show. And like anyone who's been following me for years will have seen that I'm the exact same content before and after. And so it's like, why you wanna do something defines as to whether it's the right or the wrong thing to do.
- CWChris Williamson
I understand what you mean. Uh, uh, you, it's a very rare person, man, to go into a situation and then, like, 10,000X their platform and come out and still be largely the same person after that. I think that that's something that you should be proud of if that's the case. If you've managed to maintain, uh, attached to-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Oh.
- CWChris Williamson
... this same person that you are, I think that's something that you should be very proud of.
- 26:49 – 28:45
How the show changed him: vulnerability, commitment, and deeper relationships
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Well, dude, it, it's like honestly, the show itself was a good catalyst for me as an individual. Like, I went into that show and they put me in a position to sink or swim. And the good news, the good thing was that I was already, like, on the journey of personal development, self-development. Like, I was already talking to a coach, um, like, a performance coach, like, a mindset coach. And I was already reading books and, and kind of on that personal development journey. And then got put into the pos- uh, put into the position being on the show and, and then they were like, "Okay, the point of this show is to develop better, more meaningful, deeper connections with other people." And I'm like, "Fuck, yes. Count me in."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) That's like, uh-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
That is-
- CWChris Williamson
... that's like being-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
... perfect.
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, a professional Ironman and them saying, "Right, this is going to be a, uh, run, swim, bike-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... dating show."
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Yeah, exactly. (laughs) And I'm there like, "Amazing." So, like, when there were opportunities for me to choose to go in deeper or pull out, I took the opportunity to go in deeper. And that's why I personally got more out of it, out of the experience. Uh-
- CWChris Williamson
On a dating show, on a dating show, never pull out, David. That's the lesson that we're taking from this. (laughs) This, this podcast.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Never pull out. Rule number one applied.
- CWChris Williamson
Go in, go in, go in deeper.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Go in deeper and, uh, enjoy the process. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
It was like ... (laughs) It was, it was good and, like, I personally got a lot out of it in terms of, um, relationships and realizing that, um, what I really want is to be in a, like, a happy, committed, deep relationship with someone. And, um, I was just fucking scared of getting hurt. And that's why I kind of kept girls at arm's length 'cause I was scared of getting hurt. And so effectively, that, the show was a catalyst
- 28:45 – 33:06
Modern life keeps things superficial: phones, ‘for the Gram,’ and shallow friendships
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
for that and made me fucking r- very aware of it. And then also it made me so, so aware how actually, like, in life, we, we don't have the opportunity a lot of the time to create these deep connections with people because of a lot of the things which keep us on a su- superficial level. It might be that we have friends because we go out boozing with them and we don't actually know they, who they are properly, um, because we never have deep conversations, you know? It might be that we float around from job to job, or we're constantly transient from city to city, or, um, we're trying to do things for the 'Gram instead of enjoying the moment and being present. Like, I didn't have my phone, you didn't have your phone when you were doing Love Island, and you realize that actually conversations with people, sharing things that make you scared, sharing moments of triumph and jubilation, they're the things that bring you together. And, like, when you get to know people on a real deep human level, that's when you become closer with people. So, it reminded me to put my fucking phone down, stop watching TV, create opportunities in my life to actually connect with the people that matter the most, and to stop putting time into the experiences which give me little else other than short-term quick fix joy. Which, don't get me wrong, there's, I'm keen on some short-term quick fix joy every now and then. Like, it's a great time. I went out on Saturday, for example. It was fucking brilliant. But it's not something which, uh, it really creates much depth in your life. And-... that's what a lot of people are really missing out on, is that, is that depth and-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Damn.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
... connection.
- CWChris Williamson
That insight is worth far more than m- a million followers.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Fuck, yeah. 100%, man. That's what I said, like, at the start of this podcast. I said that having done the experience, I came out and, and I was like, "It doesn't matter if anything comes of this when it comes on the TV. I've already learned, I've already become a better person. I've already had a invaluable life experience." So that's, you know, that was, it was huge. And (clears throat) it's, yeah, it was really interesting actually, so that was definitely big lessons.
- CWChris Williamson
Dude, I mean, rightly so as well. Like, I don't know how many people p- presume this, that you go on a d- (laughs) you go on a dating show and you get catapulted towards a life of integrity and virtue because of it, but you've got two, two sort of living and breathing examples. Perhaps you went in a little bit more actualized than I did. I was a, a, like, lost fucking soul before I went in. And I, my lockdown week, before my press lockdown week, I read, um, the first book since uni, which was The Pilgrimage by Paulo Coelho, and it sent me west.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
Sent me totally west 'cause it was so meaningful and I had nothing else to think about other than this fucking crazy book, and I'm having all these dreams about it.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
And then, I go into the villa and they're like, "Right, now, (claps hands) flirt with that girl over there." And I'm having this semi-fucking existential crisis 'cause I've just read Paulo Coelho's The Alch-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
(laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
The Alchemist, yeah. I'm like, "Holy fucking shit." But, um-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
It's a good book.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, dude, anyone that needs, needs an easy read, um, pick up anything by Paulo Coelho. It's really, really good. My mum loves him as well.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Shout out, shout out, Mum.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
(laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
Mrs. Williamson, she'll be, she'll, she'll love it.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
(laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
Um, yeah, dude, I, um, I think, uh, gaining that kind of insight is, it, it, there's literally no price that you can put on that. Um, and the quicker that people realize that this isn't just me and you saying it because it's convenient. I've got, I'm talking to a guy who has just gone from, uh, essentially, relatively zero to a million and a bit followers on Instagram, which to most people would be like the ascension to the fucking heavens, and we are both telling you that doing something is more important than being somebody. Like, this isn't part of some fucking David Icke, Brian Rose, London Real conspiracy bullshit. Like, I'm not doing this so that we can keep all of the followers for ourselves. I'm saying this because this genuinely is the closest, uh, uh, proxy to what me and you think the truth is. The truth will be-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Mm.
- 33:06 – 36:01
Reality TV’s impact on dating: beauty-first norms and performative masculinity
- CWChris Williamson
... floating around in there somewhere. It's, we're, we're not perfectly precise human beings, but we're as close as we're gonna get. Um, let's change track a little bit. What did you learn, or what are your views on how reality TV has affected young people's views on dating?
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
How has it affected their views on dating? It's hard to tell exactly w- based on just reality TV, but (sighs) I think that it makes people feel like the thing that matters most is how you look. Because those, the shows, reality shows pick objectively pretty people. And so, you know, there's this idea that it's all about your looks. And (sighs) often they pick, like, stupid people. And so, you get this connection between stupidity and beauty, and that can often influence younger women especially to not chase their intelligence and pursue their intelligence and their humor and their quirks and their in- like, the internal beauty of who they are, because what is mainstream is superficial, is your eyelashes and your nails and your hair and your bikini and all of that that goes along with it. But I'm gonna tell you straight up, right, beauty is not the most important thing, by a fucking country mile. And, you, you know, if you are just pretty, that is all that people will ever see you for. Like, you look at a painting and you're like, "That's an objectively beautiful painting." Like, you know, I don't know anything about its personality. (laughs) I don't know what the quirks are, I don't know if it's funny. Like, if all you are is pretty, that's all you'll be seen as. So, in order to gain depth and a deep connection with someone and to be seen as more and to have those real deep things, like, I think that it's a shame that those are not encouraged, because actually when guys are ready to settle down or when guys are looking for a girlfriend, um, like, if you're, uh, uh, to be, to, to have that commitment, there needs to be more than just beauty. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And it's, it's, you know, I think that's a real shame that it almost discourages girls to look at those more deeper parts of who they are. Um, and guys, uh, (laughs) I don't know, how would it really affect guys? I think it, it, it probably makes them think that in order to get the girl, you have to be an arrogant little cunt, because that's how most of the guys come across. That's how producers often try to make you behave. Well, they want to.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
You know? It's all-
- 36:01 – 38:54
How reality TV is constructed: archetypes, editing constraints, and caricatures
- CWChris Williamson
Th- th- this is the thing that most people don't realize, that in reality TV especially, because there is a limited amount of time to do character development-... the producers-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... the producers look for people that fit into archetypal roles. So you want-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... the hero, the maiden, the villain, the dorky one, the pretty one, the nerdy one, the this, the one, the that, the silly one, the one that pisses on the floor, the one that does this. You know, you want, like, those are the archetypes, and the reason for that is it expedites people from having to get past working out who that is, and allows the storylines to be the front and center. You don't still want-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... after six weeks of watching a TV show, you don't still want to not quite work out whether David is a, a buff gym guy or an introspective philosopher. You want to just be able to go, "Yeah. David, he's the jock."
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"David, he-"
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
... "he's the nerd," or whatever it might be. And what you get with that, by virtue of that, um, you get people that play into those roles on these shows, which means that they kind of double down a- a- and go out to the extremes of these-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... o- of these particular caricatures that they play, right? They become a, a caricatured version of themselves.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Which is really bizarre to watch, um, and, and quite entertaining as well. But dude, I, I, I agree. I think you've hit the nail on the head.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
It's entertaining, but it, it, it's super one-dimensional. It, it, it is one dimensional. You can't... If you're trying to fit into a hole, if you're trying to fit into a pigeonhole, then you have to be one dimensional because that pigeonhole is not big enough for all of the intricacies of your personality.
- CWChris Williamson
100%.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
So, and there's not, there's not enough time for the, for the show to, to get that across.
- CWChris Williamson
That's it, man.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
And so like, you have finite moments and opportunities to get across who you are. And especially, like I was filming for four weeks and there was eight episodes, and each one was 45 minutes long, roughly.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
40 minutes, roughly.
- CWChris Williamson
That's, that's no time. (laughs)
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Right? There's no time at all. So you, you're only gonna get certain opportunities to display your depth, right? And that was one of the things why, why I was like, "Right, well, these are opportunities." Like we had the workshops on the show, and so I just was like, "I'm gonna fully commit to this." Like this is an opportunity for people to see that I am not just a guy that works out, but actually that there is more to me. And I, I, I'm lucky. I'm lucky because most reality shows do not give men the opportunity to do that.
- CWChris Williamson
Dude, I, I-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Right?
- CWChris Williamson
... so I, I haven't, I haven't seen it. After speaking to you, I'm tempted to go and watch it now, but I, I, I couldn't agree more.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Most reality TV shows, uh, select for the lowest common denominator.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Mm-hmm.
- 38:54 – 43:40
Social media after the show: curate your feed, avoid negative energy, add value (even while ‘playing the game’)
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
(laughs) Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And it, it's, um, you know, reality TV you have to remember is it, it's TV, it's a show. Entertainment. It's there to entertain you, but at the same time it's confusing because it's called reality TV, and there are a lot of them which are "reality" ... kind of more scripted than others. Like to be fair, mine wasn't p- wasn't particularly scripted. Like we were put in situations, like we were put in doing the workshops, for example, and, um, you know, they were like, "Okay, this is what the workshop is." But there was... Very rarely "Can you go and say this to that person?" Like, I never got told to do any of that. It was, "Okay, David, um, don't say that now. We want to get the cameras in and we'll film that later."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
You know, it was, "Let's get stuff set up." And the truth is that people need to remember that TV is TV, and really let's go back from TV into social media. If you follow someone that you've seen on TV and you think that they're cool on TV, start following them on social for a bit if you like 'em, and then check out what the actual value of the content is on their social media. Like, if you are following someone and you watch their account and you feel bad, and you get any negative energy. If you get like, if, if it just makes you feel jealous or it just makes you feel depressed or anxious or that you're not worth it or whatever negative feeling you get from looking at their channel or their page or whatever, unfollow them. And if it's me, unfollow me. Like I want people to be happier when they leave my page. Like, that's the point. And if someone's just putting a photo of them in a bikini with a star emoji caption, fuck 'em right off. Because what is the value in that? They're-
- CWChris Williamson
I mean, that's-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
... only doing it for narcissistic reasons.
- CWChris Williamson
Per- perhaps. Th- there's a... Playing devil's advocate with that, there is a place for, um, easygoing, uh, interesting content that doesn't have to make... You know, you might... Not everybody that's listening wants to have to delve into their existential crisis every post that they look at.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
No, true.
- CWChris Williamson
Um...
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
But it can be entertaining, right? And there's a lot of accounts out there which don't give deep value, but they're entertaining and they're funny.
- CWChris Williamson
Correct. Yeah.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Like, you know, that's the thing. That... Like absolutely follow those accounts. I follow a bunch of them. They make me laugh. But that's a positive feeling.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
They make me laugh.
- CWChris Williamson
As opposed to people-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
But-
- CWChris Williamson
... that are just taking up mental bandwidth for no reason.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Yeah, exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
You know? And like, what, what would you watch on TV? Like, you watch stuff that makes you laugh, teaches you something, um, makes you have a little think, or is just some lighthearted (inaudible) , and that's absolutely cool. Instagram, because it's photos most of the time, it can fall away from those categories and into, "Just look at me."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Again, again with-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
And the "just look at me" stuff is what...
- CWChris Williamson
You'll do it as well, man. Like we gotta play the game. I always say this to everyone. I can talk about the virtue of living out your highest calling and all this bullshit and, and, and try and delve into sense-making and yeah, man, it's all about your logos and speak your truth forward and stuff, but I know for a fact if I post a topless photo, I'll get twice as much engagement as if I put anything else up. So you still gotta play the game. It's like...
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Play the game. Play the game-
- CWChris Williamson
You have to play the game.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
... but like, what's the caption?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. (laughs)
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
That's like... I could... Like, this is my point. So like-
- CWChris Williamson
First trap in the photo-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
... if you, if you know that-
- CWChris Williamson
First trap in the photo.
- 43:40 – 45:46
Closing reflections and where to find David online
- CWChris Williamson
That's what's happening, man. Look, David, it's been cool, man. I, I'm really glad that we've connected. You're a, you're a great guy. Um, it's nice-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Yeah, same, man.
- CWChris Williamson
It's nice to hear that there's a kindred spirit coming out-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... from, um, coming out from reality TV. Genuinely, man, I think the days of, you know, as much as I love them, everyone that was on the show, the days of the Geordie Shore, lowest common denominator, like, "I've pissed myself again," like, I really do hope-
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
(sighs)
- CWChris Williamson
... that the days of that with reality TV are gone. Um, I hope that people have had enough of it. And if we've reset some people's ideas today about what is valuable, like you want to do something, not be someone, you want a connection, not, not followers, like, i- i- if that's, um, reset some people's, uh, ideas of what is valuable and virtuous and, and worth pursuing mostly in life, then I think we've ... It's been 45 minutes well spent, bro. So, let's add to your existingly massive online presence. Where should people go if they wanna follow you online, and what's your website and stuff like that? What do you want to plug?
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Yeah, if you guys wanna follow me, it's @david.birdwhistell, or, um, if you wanna check out my fitness page, it's @endeavorlife. And, uh, they're the best places to find me. I give loads of free information out on Endeavour Life, and, um, it's a little bit less completely fitness-focused on my personal page. You know, usually talking about a bunch of stuff that we talked about today actually, and just generally what's going on in life. It's very much a personal, personal thing, you know? You never know what you're gonna get.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) I like it, man. Look, David, today's been really cool. Everyone that's listening, if you've got any questions, comments, or feedback, you know where to go. Get at me, @chriswillx, wherever you follow me, or leave the comments on YouTube, or do whatever you want. Leave your comment to David, and it'll take him a couple of years, and he might end up getting back to you.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Now, David, bro, thank you so much for your time.
- DBDavid Birtwhistle
Cheers, Chris. Have a nice day, man. I'll speak to you soon.
- NANarrator
(Upbeat music playing)
Episode duration: 45:46
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