What It Feels Like To Become Famous | David Birtwhistle | Modern Wisdom Podcast 207

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (wind blowing) Ladies and gentlemen,…

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      (wind blowing) Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back. I'm joined by David Birtwhistle. David, welcome to the show.

   2. DBDavid Birtwhistle0:10

      Hey, how's it going, mate?

   3. CWChris Williamson0:11

      Very good. Blue tick wanker club in the building.

   4. DBDavid Birtwhistle0:15

      Yeah. (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson0:15

      What the fuck's happening?

   6. DBDavid Birtwhistle0:18

      (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson0:18

      Reality TV wanker club, here we are.

   8. DBDavid Birtwhistle0:20

      (laughs) Hey, we've joined, joined an elusive club of people that are known for probably the wrong reasons. (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson0:30

      Known for, known for all of the wrong reasons, I think. Yeah, you are very correct. Um, so today one of the things I wanted to speak about, a lot of people will know you from a recent Netflix series which was called ...

   10. DBDavid Birtwhistle0:40

       Too Hot to Handle.

   11. CWChris Williamson0:41

       Too Hot to Handle. Talk me through that then. Talk me through the experience of being on that, 'cause yours, unlike Love Island, which was my experience on reality TV, yours was a pre-record, right? You were on that a while ago, and now it's just come out.

   12. DBDavid Birtwhistle0:53

       Yeah, we recorded it in 2019, in, um, April. So, it was a long time ago, and then it came out like a year later. So, um, yeah, the experience of actually filming it was awesome. Like, the show itself, the produc- the production team were great and the cast were great, and I actually had a really good time. So like coming out of it, I already thought to myself like, "If this doesn't do very well in the ratings or anything, like I've already gained personal experience from this that's gonna like help shape my life a little bit." So, that was really cool. And then yeah, like a year later the show launches worldwide on Netflix and it explodes and like, yeah, it just, it was like number one in 10 top countries for like a week.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:38

       Jesus Christ. (laughs)

   14. DBDavid Birtwhistle1:40

       Crazy. Yeah, like America, the UK, South Africa, Australia, uh, Japan, Italy, like loads of places, Brazil. Uh, it, it just exploded. It was absolutely mental.

   15. CWChris Williamson1:53

       It's funny that it's distributed geographically, 'cause usually like Love Island or Big Brother or whatever is broadcast on a network within a country, and that means that the people that know about the cast members and the storylines, uh, geographically quite confined. Whereas this situation is so dispersed. You're talking about people in fucking Italy, (laughs) like America, like everyone, everyone knows a little bit, but do you know what I mean?

   16. DBDavid Birtwhistle2:24

       Mate, it's crazy. It's absolutely crazy. There's like ... Yeah, it, it, it really is a worldwide audience, you know? Like people that comment on my posts and that engage with me on social media are from everywhere, like Taiwan, uh, Korea, Russia, you know, New Zealand, Australia, Kenya, literally like all over the world. And it is mental to think that that many people of different origins have seen my face.

   17. CWChris Williamson2:54

       Fuck.

   18. DBDavid Birtwhistle2:54

       It's crazy.

   19. CWChris Williamson2:55

       Power of Netflix, man. Power of Netflix, obviously.

   20. DBDavid Birtwhistle2:58

       I know. They exploded it. It was, it was crazy.

   21. CWChris Williamson3:00

       Yeah.

   22. DBDavid Birtwhistle3:01

       Crazy, crazy, crazy.

   23. CWChris Williamson3:01

       They're, uh, they're a bunch of beasts. Talk to me about what, um, what some of the lessons that you've learned then since either from being on the show or from, uh, coming, like it being released and then you're reflecting, uh, upon this kind of ascension into notoriety.

   24. DBDavid Birtwhistle3:21

       Uh, I think that the main lesson that I've learned is that even if you have massive exposure, i.e. a big social media following, it doesn't mean that you're necessarily making a lot of money, firstly, and it doesn't necessarily set you up for success. Um, I think there's this big assumption that if you've got a lot of followers then you're somewhat successful. And although you might've done something very cool or good in order to achieve that follower count, um, you know, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're actually a successful business person or you've got all life figured out or anything like that. And so it was, it's almost like we kind of set ourselves up because of the way the world is at the moment to think that someone who has a lot of followers is killing it. And they might not be, you know? Like you have to have a business. You have to chase it.

   25. CWChris Williamson4:34

       Mm-hmm.

   26. DBDavid Birtwhistle4:34

       You have to work hard for it. Like, you know, I've, I came out of, of filming and then worked for a whole year to set up my, uh, coaching brand Endeavor Life, put hours and hours and hours and thousands of pounds into that. And since this show's launched, I've like constantly been thinking like, "What can I do? Who should I be speaking to? Who should I, who should I talk to?" Like podcasts, you know? This is a prime example, like speaking to you today. Like-

   27. CWChris Williamson5:01

       Chris fucking Williamson, that's who you should be speaking to, man.

   28. DBDavid Birtwhistle5:05

       (laughs) Exactly.

   29. CWChris Williamson5:06

       (laughs)

   30. DBDavid Birtwhistle5:06

       You know, like speaking to the right people, engaging with the right things, and also thinking like, "How can I actually create a business or how can I have some longevity here and be smart about this?" And that's not something that just happens. Like it's the same as any business. Effectively, you have to work really hard to make something happen. You just have marketing. So like a social media channel or page or whatever that's really big is effectively just a marketing platform. And if you have that, it d- you might be terrible at marketing and no one wants to buy anything off you, and therefore you have a shit business.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   But would you have…

   1. DBDavid Birtwhistle15:00

      not happy and I wasn't ... because I wasn't able to engage with people. Like I'm a- I'm a social person, like I'm an extroverted person, like I buzz when I'm around others and when I can connect with people and when I can i- like see them and affect them and things like that. And I'm sat at home and I'm like, "I- I ... there should be the ... like my life is changing, why don't you care?" And it's because I was.

   2. CWChris Williamson15:25

      But would you have been, um, would you have been any different-

   3. DBDavid Birtwhistle15:26

      I wasn't seeing anyone.

   4. CWChris Williamson15:26

      ... would you have been any different had you been around people? Do you think that you would have suddenly taken a load of value from the followers going up then?

   5. DBDavid Birtwhistle15:33

      I think that really what is the ... where is the value that you get? Like for me it's, it's ... uh, all right, so, you know, every now and then people recognize me when I'm out and about, yeah. But like this weekend, there's a- a person that stuck out, and there was ... you know, I think probably I went out on Saturday just in Clapham and probably like 10 or so people, groups of people recognized me. But this one woman came up to me and she was like, "Hey David, um, I just wanted to say I'm a really big fan. I love your positivity and what you're putting out on social media. I think it's really great. Thank you so much." And I was like, "Oh my God, that's so sweet. What's your name?" And she told me her name was Fiona. And I started, "Fiona, thank you so much. You've literally just made my night. Like that's so sweet of you to- to come up and be so humble and, like, have that conversation with me." And, like, that- that meant a lot because I could see the effect, the positive effect that I'm having on her from putting out content that I think a lot about. Um, like that is more impactful because I can see that person. It- it becomes real, you know? So that's, um, that's the difference. I don't care about someone being like, "Oh, you're that bloke off- off- off that show."

   6. CWChris Williamson16:45

      (laughs)

   7. DBDavid Birtwhistle16:45

      Like that means nothing. (laughs)

   8. CWChris Williamson16:47

      (laughs)

   9. DBDavid Birtwhistle16:47

      Like to be noticed doesn't mean anything. But to see impact, that means something. So-

   10. CWChris Williamson16:54

       Dude, that- that's it. That's it there. So you have defined the territory as far as I can see there. Let me, let me see if I can do a little bit of sense making from some things that have been floating around in my head, and maybe some of this stuff will land with you.

   11. DBDavid Birtwhistle17:08

       All right.

   12. CWChris Williamson17:09

       So, um, the problem that I have with most reality TV, and I appreciate I'm a massive part (laughs) of this problem having been on it, is that people are chosen as the lowest common denominator and the lesson that it teaches is that fame and notoriety by any means is all that matters. What I mean by that is a perfect example, Tommy Fury, fantastic boxer, worked his entire life to be a good boxer, made his name by existing as an all right looking lad with a bit of a tan on TV for a while. His talent had absolutely nothing to do with his fame, so the decoupling of talent from notoriety has removed the value that fame used to give us. The reason that people used to be famous is because they'd done something. Now, people are famous for simply existing, and the problem with that, as you've identified, is that it leaves you with a very, very hollow sensation.... because you know that the fame could have been taken by someone else. Had there have been another David doing that thing at that time on the show, they would have got the same as you, the same as me, the same as Chris on Love Island, all the rest of it. However, when you do something which is both challenging and worthwhile, like grinding away on a business and putting thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours into it for a year, or creating, uh, social media content that you feel is a true representation of your inner logos, the way that you believe the world to be and you hope that it helps someone else make sense of it, and then they come up and tell you, that is a sense of satisfaction derived from something which is closer to your higher calling. And I think what I really want people to take away from this is what you said when you were watching your follower count go up as just this arbitrary fucking number, numbers on a screen. And had that have been, had you have got 1.3 million followers from constantly putting out, like, just amazing content that tons of people resonated with, you would have first off selected for a ridiculously mindful audience that re- super, super aligned with what you think and what you feel. But also you would be, y- you would feel so much more, uh, close to them because it would be due to your higher calling, right? So this, this fame and notoriety by any means I think leaves ... It, it, first off, it gives off the wrong impression to the people that watch because they presume that that's something to aim for. "Uh, don't, don't worry about h- about what I'm famous for, just get me famous." Right? Like-

   13. DBDavid Birtwhistle19:52

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson19:52

       And the problem is, a perfect example of this is, like, fucking, I think Conor McGregor and Elon Musk and Kendall Jenner and, uh, you know, some other person have probably all got the same number of followers, but they've got there from very, very different ways. Like-

   15. DBDavid Birtwhistle20:07

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson20:08

       ... you can't have one currency that equates, uh, multiple people from, uh, uh ... one metric of success which equates multiple people within different domains of competence. Like, Elon Musk, a- a- as lovely as Conor McGregor is, Elon Musk is worth 10 Conor McGregors because Conor's not gonna fucking get this species to Mars. Like, but because people have this now ubiquitous social currency that they can use, "Oh, David's, David's at 1.3 but this other guy that was on the show's only at 800. That must mean that David's fucking 1.5 times as much as this person." Do you know what I mean? Like, I, I don't know. That's, that's just a conception that I've had in my mind, that, like, decoupling of w- uh, notoriety from fame by any means to actually trying to bring it back to it being, "Oh, right, be famous for something." Want to be-

   17. DBDavid Birtwhistle21:02

       Yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson21:02

       ... want to be someone. You know? Want to do something.

   19. DBDavid Birtwhistle21:08

       Yeah. Dude, that's, that is so spot on. That is so spot on. You've, uh, you've very eloquently delivered the information in an understandable way. Like, that's, that was really, that's brilliant. Um, and actually that's something that I'm, like, you know, thinking, thinking now is like post, post-show, like, what is it ... Now I'm asking myself this question. Like, what is it that you're gonna do? What is it that you are going to do to impact and, and be known as? 'Cause just being known ...

   20. CWChris Williamson21:46

       (laughs)

   21. DBDavid Birtwhistle21:46

       Who gives a fuck about just being known?

   22. CWChris Williamson21:49

       Yeah, mate.

   23. DBDavid Birtwhistle21:50

       It's about doing something. So, like, already, like, obviously I'm, um, you know, doing a lot of stuff in, in health and fitness, and that's something that I already, like, have. Like, I am a coach first and foremost. Like, I'm a coach. I've been a coach in health and fitness industry for 10 years, and it's not something that I plan on stop doing. But I'm thinking, like, what else can I do to, to, to do more? You know. So you're so right, and it's such a shame that fame has been decoupled from talent, um, and there's so many people with massive followings that talk absolute shit-

   24. CWChris Williamson22:22

       They don't deserve it, man. We kn-

   25. DBDavid Birtwhistle22:22

       ... and leave the world ... No, it, it (laughs) -

   26. CWChris Williamson22:25

       We know that, we know that they, they don't deserve it. And this is, don't deserve it in the purest sense of the word. And what I mean by that is that there is literally large swaths of the population who would do better with that platform. Like-

   27. DBDavid Birtwhistle22:40

       Mm-hmm.

   28. CWChris Williamson22:40

       ... when I see people that are plucked out of the, the, the mire (laughs) , the, the muck and the fucking feces and the straw on the floor in, in the, the back carriage and they get brought up to first class and they get this huge platform, and then they, they squander it with just bullshit-

   29. DBDavid Birtwhistle23:00

       Yeah.

   30. CWChris Williamson23:00

       ... I'm like, "Do you know what it is? That's someone that could have done something but instead wanted to be someone." And that, that to me, as you, but, m- it would appear me and you agree on, like, don't desire being someone. Desire doing something.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Yeah. Damn. …

   1. DBDavid Birtwhistle30:00

      experiences which give me little else other than short-term quick fix joy. Which, don't get me wrong, there's, I'm keen on some short-term quick fix joy every now and then. Like, it's a great time. I went out on Saturday, for example. It was fucking brilliant. But it's not something which, uh, it really creates much depth in your life. And-... that's what a lot of people are really missing out on, is that, is that depth and-

   2. CWChris Williamson30:26

      Yeah. Damn.

   3. DBDavid Birtwhistle30:27

      ... connection.

   4. CWChris Williamson30:27

      That insight is worth far more than m- a million followers.

   5. DBDavid Birtwhistle30:32

      Fuck, yeah. 100%, man. That's what I said, like, at the start of this podcast. I said that having done the experience, I came out and, and I was like, "It doesn't matter if anything comes of this when it comes on the TV. I've already learned, I've already become a better person. I've already had a invaluable life experience." So that's, you know, that was, it was huge. And (clears throat) it's, yeah, it was really interesting actually, so that was definitely big lessons.

   6. CWChris Williamson31:04

      Dude, I mean, rightly so as well. Like, I don't know how many people p- presume this, that you go on a d- (laughs) you go on a dating show and you get catapulted towards a life of integrity and virtue because of it, but you've got two, two sort of living and breathing examples. Perhaps you went in a little bit more actualized than I did. I was a, a, like, lost fucking soul before I went in. And I, my lockdown week, before my press lockdown week, I read, um, the first book since uni, which was The Pilgrimage by Paulo Coelho, and it sent me west.

   7. DBDavid Birtwhistle31:37

      Mm.

   8. CWChris Williamson31:37

      Sent me totally west 'cause it was so meaningful and I had nothing else to think about other than this fucking crazy book, and I'm having all these dreams about it.

   9. DBDavid Birtwhistle31:44

      (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson31:44

       And then, I go into the villa and they're like, "Right, now, (claps hands) flirt with that girl over there." And I'm having this semi-fucking existential crisis 'cause I've just read Paulo Coelho's The Alch-

   11. DBDavid Birtwhistle31:53

       (laughs) .

   12. CWChris Williamson31:53

       The Alchemist, yeah. I'm like, "Holy fucking shit." But, um-

   13. DBDavid Birtwhistle31:57

       It's a good book.

   14. CWChris Williamson31:58

       Oh, dude, anyone that needs, needs an easy read, um, pick up anything by Paulo Coelho. It's really, really good. My mum loves him as well.

   15. DBDavid Birtwhistle32:04

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson32:05

       Shout out, shout out, Mum.

   17. DBDavid Birtwhistle32:05

       (laughs) .

   18. CWChris Williamson32:05

       Mrs. Williamson, she'll be, she'll, she'll love it.

   19. DBDavid Birtwhistle32:07

       (laughs) .

   20. CWChris Williamson32:07

       Um, yeah, dude, I, um, I think, uh, gaining that kind of insight is, it, it, there's literally no price that you can put on that. Um, and the quicker that people realize that this isn't just me and you saying it because it's convenient. I've got, I'm talking to a guy who has just gone from, uh, essentially, relatively zero to a million and a bit followers on Instagram, which to most people would be like the ascension to the fucking heavens, and we are both telling you that doing something is more important than being somebody. Like, this isn't part of some fucking David Icke, Brian Rose, London Real conspiracy bullshit. Like, I'm not doing this so that we can keep all of the followers for ourselves. I'm saying this because this genuinely is the closest, uh, uh, proxy to what me and you think the truth is. The truth will be-

   21. DBDavid Birtwhistle33:05

       Mm.

   22. CWChris Williamson33:06

       ... floating around in there somewhere. It's, we're, we're not perfectly precise human beings, but we're as close as we're gonna get. Um, let's change track a little bit. What did you learn, or what are your views on how reality TV has affected young people's views on dating?

   23. DBDavid Birtwhistle33:29

       How has it affected their views on dating? It's hard to tell exactly w- based on just reality TV, but (sighs) I think that it makes people feel like the thing that matters most is how you look. Because those, the shows, reality shows pick objectively pretty people. And so, you know, there's this idea that it's all about your looks. And (sighs) often they pick, like, stupid people. And so, you get this connection between stupidity and beauty, and that can often influence younger women especially to not chase their intelligence and pursue their intelligence and their humor and their quirks and their in- like, the internal beauty of who they are, because what is mainstream is superficial, is your eyelashes and your nails and your hair and your bikini and all of that that goes along with it. But I'm gonna tell you straight up, right, beauty is not the most important thing, by a fucking country mile. And, you, you know, if you are just pretty, that is all that people will ever see you for. Like, you look at a painting and you're like, "That's an objectively beautiful painting." Like, you know, I don't know anything about its personality. (laughs) I don't know what the quirks are, I don't know if it's funny. Like, if all you are is pretty, that's all you'll be seen as. So, in order to gain depth and a deep connection with someone and to be seen as more and to have those real deep things, like, I think that it's a shame that those are not encouraged, because actually when guys are ready to settle down or when guys are looking for a girlfriend, um, like, if you're, uh, uh, to be, to, to have that commitment, there needs to be more than just beauty. Yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson35:32

       And it's, it's, you know, I think that's a real shame that it almost discourages girls to look at those more deeper parts of who they are. Um, and guys, uh, (laughs) I don't know, how would it really affect guys? I think it, it, it probably makes them think that in order to get the girl, you have to be an arrogant little cunt, because that's how most of the guys come across. That's how producers often try to make you behave. Well, they want to.

   25. DBDavid Birtwhistle36:00

       You know? It's all-

   26. CWChris Williamson36:01

       Th- th- this is the thing that most people don't realize, that in reality TV especially, because there is a limited amount of time to do character development-... the producers-

   27. DBDavid Birtwhistle36:13

       Mm-hmm.

   28. CWChris Williamson36:13

       ... the producers look for people that fit into archetypal roles. So you want-

   29. DBDavid Birtwhistle36:18

       Yeah.

   30. CWChris Williamson36:18

       ... the hero, the maiden, the villain, the dorky one, the pretty one, the nerdy one, the this, the one, the that, the silly one, the one that pisses on the floor, the one that does this. You know, you want, like, those are the archetypes, and the reason for that is it expedites people from having to get past working out who that is, and allows the storylines to be the front and center. You don't still want-
4. 45:00 – 45:46

   (laughs) I like it,…

   1. DBDavid Birtwhistle45:00

      personal page. You know, usually talking about a bunch of stuff that we talked about today actually, and just generally what's going on in life. It's very much a personal, personal thing, you know? You never know what you're gonna get.

   2. CWChris Williamson45:10

      (laughs) I like it, man. Look, David, today's been really cool. Everyone that's listening, if you've got any questions, comments, or feedback, you know where to go. Get at me, @chriswillx, wherever you follow me, or leave the comments on YouTube, or do whatever you want. Leave your comment to David, and it'll take him a couple of years, and he might end up getting back to you.

   3. DBDavid Birtwhistle45:25

      (laughs)

   4. CWChris Williamson45:25

      Now, David, bro, thank you so much for your time.

   5. DBDavid Birtwhistle45:29

      Cheers, Chris. Have a nice day, man. I'll speak to you soon.

   6. NANarrator45:33

      (Upbeat music playing)

Episode duration: 45:46