What Makes Men And Women Different? - Dr Carole Hooven

1. 0:00 – 0:30

   Intro

   1. CHDr Carole Hooven0:00

      If you're a female who then goes on to transition, I have heard now from several people who lived as females and then transitioned that their libido went through the roof. They were shocked by it. They were disturbed by it. Most of them said, "I get it now. I'm looking at this other person, whether they're attracted to men or women. I can't stop thinking about their body parts." (air whooshing)

   2. CWChris Williamson0:26

      I have been looking forward to speaking to you for quite a while, because you shared

2. 0:30 – 9:55

   Is Maternal Instinct a Myth?

   1. CWChris Williamson0:30

      an article by Chelsea Conaboy in the New York Times-

   2. CHDr Carole Hooven0:35

      (gasps)

   3. CWChris Williamson0:35

      ... called Maternal Instinct is a Myth That Men Created. She says that, "The maternal instinct is a social construct generated and upheld by the patriarchy to impel women to raise children and keep them out of the workforce." However, partway down, you, you shared a quote that was quite revealing, I think. This is from her, "New research on the pa- uh, parental brain makes clear that the idea of maternal instinct as something innate, automatic and distinctly female is a myth, one that has stuck-

   4. CHDr Carole Hooven1:04

      (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson1:04

      ... despite the best efforts of feminists (laughs) to debunk it from the moment it entered public discourse." What are your thoughts on Chelsea Conaboy's article, Carol?

   6. CHDr Carole Hooven1:14

      Well, I have a lot to say. Uh, most of it is not good, and I feel kinda bad about that, because Chelsea was probably pretty excited about having her article in the New York Times, and she probably worked really hard on it. And I think her heart is in the right place. Uh, I think the- there are lots of articles kinda like this, but this is one of the most egregious example of this particular kind of article, mm, maybe that I've ever seen. Uh, New York Times, you know, it's not super surprising it was printed in that particular outlet. Um, but, uh, so I said I think her heart is in the right place, and I guess I think that people who write these kinds of articles, especially from a kind of feminist point of view, are grasping at straws to find something kind of real and biological that will support the idea that, uh, women should have equal rights and equal opportunities, you know, relative to men. And, while that goal may be laudable... Actually, I don't... Yeah. While that goal may be laudable, and we can talk about that goal later, um, what is not laudable and what really bothers me as a scientist is the idea that anyone believes and that intelligent people are promoting the idea that in order to secure anybody's human rights, whatever you think those rights should be, we have to basically, uh, (sighs) lie. (laughs) Of course, there's a maternal instinct. You know, we don't need to, uh, kinda twist the facts of biology to support anybody's rights. We don't have to distort reality. We have to... You know, we can tell the truth and fight for people's rights. Those are different things. Like, what exists in nature is not the same thing as what people's human rights are. We decide, us humans, we decide what we want and what kind of society we want, regardless of the facts of nature and sort of- I don't- I think conflating those two things is dangerous from many, uh, perspectives. But this is a- it's just also blatantly false and pretty much everybody knows it. So, it is like, uh, an example of, um, the emperor is actually not wearing any clothes, and nobody is saying so. I wanna say so.

   7. CWChris Williamson3:42

      Prove to me that maternal instinct isn't a myth that men created.

   8. CHDr Carole Hooven3:46

      Okay. Did men... So, first of all, it kind of annoys me, because it gives men a hell of a lot of power.

   9. CWChris Williamson3:54

      Well, we, we get to do-

   10. CHDr Carole Hooven3:54

       Men are very powerful, but they can't do that.

   11. CWChris Williamson3:56

       ... completely control how you act. We get to dictate how it is that you interact with your children.

   12. CHDr Carole Hooven4:02

       Yes. And you get the rest of society to believe something so stupid. It's like somehow you magic men have gotten us all to believe that there is something innate about moms wanting to care for their children in a way that is different and more intense than the way that fathers do. So, I can- you know, one way to try to prove it to you is to just take human culture out of the mix. Look at every, um, mammal that is not ex- uh, exposed to human culture. Well, not even exposed, but look at every non-human mammal, and the females are the ones in 95% of those mammals who, uh, are the sole providers of any kind of parental care for their offspring. Of course they have an instinct. Of course. That is part of being a mammal, and there's only 5% of mammals or f- or even a smaller percent, uh, in which the males contribute any parental care. Humans are one of those species. That's part of what makes us really interesting. But males have the choice to invest in their kids. The kids can survive without them, the father. They typically cannot, at least in a natural environment or in a ancestral environment. Uh, it would be very tough for them to survive without their mother. And, uh, so, yes, there's a difference between men and women in the degree to which we invest in our offspring. Not only do we have the, um, comparison with non-human animals, we have mechanisms. We know what some of these mechanisms are, hormonal and neurological, that contribute to maternal care. And I mean, I could go on and on about the science, and there's just nothing, uh, bad about this. You know, it's great that fathers invest in their kids. It's great that moms can have the choice to invest less than their, uh, partners. You know, moms can go out and go to work. That's what I did. I, you know, had somebody else took care of my...... baby for the most part during the day (laughs) while I was at work. I pumped my milk. But if I didn't want to pump my milk, or, you know, have a deep desire, it's not ... Men didn't give me that desire. I mean, uh, that idea is sort of insulting to me.

   13. CWChris Williamson6:25

       It sounds like (clears throat) you may have been one of the poster children, poster women, for someone that was liberated from this maternal, at least in terms of the restriction on their ability to continue with their career and research and stuff that you were doing at Harvard.

   14. CHDr Carole Hooven6:41

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson6:41

       It seems like-

   16. CHDr Carole Hooven6:42

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson6:42

       ... you, you would be a, a flag-waving, card-carrying person for that, and yet still don't believe it.

   18. CHDr Carole Hooven6:49

       Um, yeah, it is something I did. I didn't really want to do that. I wish I could've stayed home with Griffin, uh, who's now 13, um, for much, you know, for a year rather than a few months. And he was close by, so I did get to take off my shoes and run a couple blocks to, um, breastfeed him, like, three times a day, which was great. And most moms do not get to do that, and that's really painful for them because they have a maternal instinct. It's painful if your breasts are full of milk and you have to, you know, have a machine squeeze it out rather than having your kid's lips suck it out.

   19. CWChris Williamson7:24

       I imagine it's also quite painful just to run if you've got breasts that are full of milk-

   20. CHDr Carole Hooven7:28

       (laughs)

   21. CWChris Williamson7:28

       ... and you're jogging down the street. Just generally it's, it's, it's challenging.

   22. CHDr Carole Hooven7:31

       Yeah, that's a good point. (laughs)

   23. CWChris Williamson7:33

       (coughs) Well, I, I also saw a re-

   24. CHDr Carole Hooven7:34

       Yeah, but I didn't feel the pain because I was so motivated.

   25. CWChris Williamson7:36

       You're so maternally, so maternally, uh, pushed by the patriarchy.

   26. CHDr Carole Hooven7:40

       Exactly, yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson7:40

       Uh, so there was a, a great response to this, uh, that was done in Quillette. "According to this view, the parental bl- brain is essentially a blank slate filled with expectations, experiences chiefly dictated by social expectations for women and men. In other words, women's and men's parental brains and associated behaviors would be the same with the right social mores and behavioral expectations." As he says, pretty much all, uh, mammals, uh, the men don't have any, uh, male parental investment.

   28. CHDr Carole Hooven8:11

       Males, yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson8:12

       "The claim fails to consider that males do very little parenting in the vast majority of animals, especially those, including humans, in which males compete intensely for status. As it happens, humans are among the exceptions to this pattern. Men invest considerably more in children than do the males of our closest relatives, chimpanzees and bonobos, who are uniformly deadbeats." Later in the article, he said, "Brain patterns can be used to correctly identify whether the owner is a man or a woman with 93% to 96% accuracy." Have you seen this?

   30. CHDr Carole Hooven8:43

       Yes. Yes. Okay, but that ... They're ... So, can I just say, just make two responses there? So (laughs) , one, is I, the other aim of the article, which I really did think was important, and it was too bad that this particular goal got weighed down with all this kind of crap science, um, the goal was to show the ways in which society has, um, in some ways, because there are or there are thought to be, but in reality there are, these biological differences, the author seemed to think that this has given license to men in particular to, um, help to create policies and expectations that limit women's ability to do what they wanna do, whether they wanna ... You know, what kind of parent they wanna be, how, uh, invested they should be in parenting. So, that's a good goal, right? Just because we have a, uh, maternal instinct doesn't mean that we should do anything in particular. It doesn't even mean we should have kids or that we should be the ones to stay home with them. But that's a separate point, um, from whatever the science says about maternal instinct. So, that was, um, thing one. And

3. 9:55 – 17:05

   The Demonisation of Motherhood

   1. CHDr Carole Hooven9:55

      thing two about-

   2. CWChris Williamson9:56

      It takes ... Just to, just to interject, s-

   3. CHDr Carole Hooven9:56

      Yes.

   4. CWChris Williamson9:56

      Interject, uh, the naturalistic fallacy, presuming that because something existed in nature, that it's something which is laudable and desirable in the modern world, I wish that we could just-

   5. CHDr Carole Hooven10:05

      Yes.

   6. CWChris Williamson10:05

      ... dispense with that entire line of argumentation. Every single time that I see it, I go, "Right, okay, men used to fight for dominance physically." We have laws that stop you from punishing people in the street even if you both see the same attractive woman in front of you, right? Like, obviously-

   7. CHDr Carole Hooven10:21

      Yes.

   8. CWChris Williamson10:21

      ... obviously no one thinks that this is the case. My main problem with this war on motherhood, war on the pedestalization of mothers as mothers, and the assumption that if you are a mother that decides to stay home and build a family while your partner goes to work, that you've been rube-d into doing this by the patriarchy, that you're somehow a second-class citizen, to me, saying, "You can do whatever you want, yes," but if you're to say, "The maternal instinct is a myth that men created," the subtext of that is, "If you fell for it, you're an idiot-"

   9. CHDr Carole Hooven10:56

      Yes.

   10. CWChris Williamson10:56

       "... woman."

   11. CHDr Carole Hooven10:57

       Yes. Yes. That is a great, uh, example about why this kind of article, uh, that appears so often an- in kind of liberal outlets is so damaging. Because yes, this is something that is natural, basically natural. There's a lot of variation in how it's gonna be expressed, but there's nothing wrong with getting, you know, gaining immense pleasure from devoting yourself to something that is natural if it gives you pleasure and that's what you choose. And if it doesn't hurt anybody else, you know, there's no reason to stigmatize that as though h- you know, you're just doing what men want you to do. But then there's the issue about whether you can tell male and female brains apart. So, my understanding is that what you just said is totally correct. That human beings, scientists say, can't just look at brains, um, say, under a mi- you know, little areas necessarily and figure out what, um, which are male and which are female, but that, uh, machine learning can do that with a really high degree of accuracy. It does appear that there are, um, systemic differences in the brain that-... differentiate male and female brains on average. There's, you know, a fair amount of overlap and variation, but we have different brains. One question is whether it is... So, one challenge to that is that it's life experience that leads to these differences, you know. If they exist, then it's all due to the patriarchy, and that, uh, that leads men, you know, to behave in certain ways and interacting socially in certain ways. And because they're per- you're performing masculinity in society, that performance and the reception to that performance is going to condition your brain to develop, uh, in different ways from a woman's brain. You know, and there may be, there is, I think, some truth to that, but I don't think there's any way that explains, uh, male-female brain differences on average. We also have lifetime differences in exposure to testosterone and oestrogen. Those steroid hormones also have lasting impacts on brain organization, starting extremely early on in fetal development. So, yes, society is important. Yes, society... You know, just like we see with maternal instinct, there's an initial difference there that is shaped... You know, that difference is then, then plays out in modern society in all kinds of ways. And if men, if the patriarchy, whatever you think that is, can somehow exploit female labor, maybe that happens, but that doesn't mean that this difference doesn't exist or isn't innate in some way.

   12. CWChris Williamson13:50

       I wonder if Chelsea Conaboy has kids. Uh, based on the women that I've spoken to who have had kids, once that, uh, hormone cascade gets released, it's a hell of a ride, and it's a hell of a way for you to stop all of the progesterone. For men even, you know, like vasopressin getting released, b- baby lying on the chest.

   13. CHDr Carole Hooven14:13

       Yes. Good, good.

   14. CWChris Williamson14:13

       Why is it that when you pass a baby's head around everyone wants to take a nice big whiff of it? Like, what do you think is going on here? Even the w- that's even the women that aren't, that haven't given birth and that maybe aren't even genetically related that are just doing the whole-

   15. CHDr Carole Hooven14:24

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson14:24

       ... alloparenting, the modern version of alloparenting stuff now. Like...

   17. CHDr Carole Hooven14:27

       Yes.

   18. CWChris Williamson14:28

       (laughs) Wha- I- it, it blows my mind that people can be so ostensibly pro-female and obviously anti-mother. That blows my mind.

   19. CHDr Carole Hooven14:48

       Yeah. I, that's... I, I don't even know where to begin. I completely agree with you. One thing that I do when I teach my class on... And I, we get into the sex differences part, and we talk about, um, sexual development, like how over our, um, developmental trajectory, we become male and female, and then what happens in puberty and how the hormones work on our bodies and on our brains. We have different, there are different aspects of our environment that are salient to us. So, men are much more likely to stare at women's breasts, and that when they're walking down the street or, you know, any, uh, any cues of female fertility, uh, those vary by culture, but there are some that are pretty standard. And so I, if I do look at a woman's breasts, it's o- out of some sort of competition or I'm trying to evaluate my own self for something like that.

   20. CWChris Williamson15:47

       Your intrasexual competition is showing, Carol.

   21. CHDr Carole Hooven15:50

       Something like that, yeah. So, if a guy does it, it's for, uh, you know, m- mating purposes and, and sort of paying attention to what's in the environment that might be reproductively beneficial to him. Women are much more likely, and I do this, um, and I just hit menopause at 56, um, so when I see somebody with a baby go by, I just cannot... I'm one of those women you just described. I love babies. I wanna smell them. I kinda wanna like take a bite of some baby fat or something, and it's, they're so attractive. And they've al- I've always loved that. Of course, there are some women who don't like babies, who don't ever want kids, but what we're talking about is patterns on average. We pay attention to those aspects of our environment, environmental stimuli that we evolved to pay attention to. And, um, so I think you're totally right, though. That's evidence that the fact that these patterns exist across the planet and in chimpanzees, little, like adolescent chimpanzee females especially want to get in on the baby action when there is a baby around, um, and that's something males are much less likely

4. 17:05 – 24:47

   Why Do We Have Testosterone?

   1. CHDr Carole Hooven17:05

      to do.

   2. CWChris Williamson17:06

      What does testosterone do? Why do we have it?

   3. CHDr Carole Hooven17:11

      To help you, men, convert energy into offspring.

   4. CWChris Williamson17:15

      Men, yes.

   5. CHDr Carole Hooven17:17

      (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson17:19

      My friend Bridget, halfway through her show all the time just screams the word "women!" And I'm just gonna start going, "Men!"

   7. CHDr Carole Hooven17:26

      (laughs) Wait, Phetasy?

   8. CWChris Williamson17:27

      Yeah.

   9. CHDr Carole Hooven17:29

      Okay. Um, yeah, that's what it's for. It's a reproductive hormone. It's not all about sex. It's about h- like, the same thing as estrogen. It is about, first of all, the physical stuff. You've got to have your penis and testicles and vas deferens and everything you need to, you know, produce your sperm and ejaculate, right? But imagine having all that stuff and not being attracted to... Not, you know, wanting to use it, basically. Um, imagine not wanting to use it.

   10. CWChris Williamson18:05

       Uh, having, having all of the weaponry but none of the motivation.

   11. CHDr Carole Hooven18:09

       Yeah, like in a red deer. I wrote in my book about red deer. They grow these huge weapons on their heads every season only during the height of the mating season, the height of the rut, and they w- testosterone is what helps to promote that growth and the sharp antlers and the, um, velvet coating coming off. But if they didn't have any desi- if they just, like, walked around being friendly to every other male, that would just never happen. Evolution doesn't give you weapons and sperm, and then no desire to use it.

   12. CWChris Williamson18:44

       I'm right in saying that the males that grow these antlers during the rut when they're trying to mate with the females, they're friends. They're with their mates, being much more docile-

   13. CHDr Carole Hooven18:54

       Yes, that is what is so-

   14. CWChris Williamson18:54

       ... much more chill.

   15. CHDr Carole Hooven18:56

       Yes, that's what's so cool about seasonal breeders, and this is why I went to study to Scotland to, to hang out with the, um, red deer during the rut. Because humans aren't seasonal breeders. You guys are just masculinized. You have puberty... I mean, you're even masculinized as kids. You have rough and tumble play. You're different than girls, on average. Again, tons of variation. So you can't really see the effects of testosterone the way you can in a seasonal breeder that is super chill with his, you know, bachelor mates, right? They hang out and they're friendly outside of breeding season. They don't have weapons. They're not making sperm 'cause there's no females who can get pregnant. They're like, "Let's all get along." Once the females become fertile and they get a whiff of her, they really want to accumulate, not that they're possessions, 'cause the females can leave, but they wanna accumulate a harem, 'cause they wanna have a lot of sex with a lot of females. That's what they're driven to do. In order to do it, they have to really fight and beat their competitors, and the ones who have the best antlers and are biggest and strongest and most fierce and who scare the other ones off, 'cause they're roaring all the time and, like, literally parading around and showing how big and strong they are, they're the ones who have the most sex. And the other lonely ones up in the hills above are just watching (laughs) the dominant males with the big harems just do- thinking like, "How can I get in here? Do I have the balls to," literally, you know, "to challenge him?" And most of them never will, and they won't. They'll die without, you know, producing any kids. So, I don't even remember what- how we got into this. Oh, okay. What does testosterone do? That's what it does, but you can't see it in human males as much because you guys are always basically horny and alw- you know, have a baseline higher propensity for physical aggression. It doesn't just come and go so dramatically, like in all these seasonal breeders. So just to answer your question, it helps you have the physical capacity in terms of muscle mass, in terms of sperm, in terms of strength, in terms of ability to get an erection, and it coordinates all that stuff with what you need psychologically and behaviorally, which is increased propensity to take physical risks, to be competitive with other males, whether that requires the physical risks or not. If you can't get in a bar fight, you're gonna go play football or basketball or whatever sport you do, and you're gonna wanna be the best at that sport because that really helps you dominance-wise. Girls like that. You're also gonna compete in terms of your profession and you're gonna be ambitious, and it coordinates all that stuff because that's what you have to do to maximize your reproduction, and it helps you be a good dad by going down when you have a baby. So... And that's also what we see in non-human animals. It's not all about going and getting as many females as possible. It's about being a devoted partner and father, 'cause if you can have one female's reproductive output, um, and you can invest in those kids and ensure their survival, that could be just as good, if not better, a strategy, depending on your status and your abilities, than going out on the open market and trying to compete, and maybe you get somebody pregnant, maybe you don't. If you have, uh, one mate and you invest in her, uh, and the kids, then, uh, that can be a really successful strategy, and that requires lower testosterone for a while.

   16. CWChris Williamson22:32

       Does that mean that men who have high testosterone are higher in status-seeking behavior?

   17. CHDr Carole Hooven22:38

       No. It means... So really, the individual differences in testosterone in men within a healthy, normal range predict very little if, uh, about libido or physical aggression or anything else. It's really about the changes that you experience throughout the day, throughout the seasons based... And it's all in response to what your environment is, your social environment in particular. So those changes are meaningful in that the changes that you have when you have a kid or wha- when it goes down are meaningful because you're, um, in an environment where care for your offspring really helps you reproductively and you have the smell of your kid, you have the sight of your kid, you have your partner there. All... If you didn't have that stuff, that change in testosterone would probably do nothing.

   18. CWChris Williamson23:29

       What about depression? Does testosterone relate to that at all?

   19. CHDr Carole Hooven23:35

       Yeah, it does seem to. Um, so one interesting finding about testosterone is that when females transition to, uh, live as men, and they're going through a gender transition, they... a lot of them report that their mood, uh, improves and not apparently just because they're happy that they're actually transitioning. Um, 'cause th- we see the same thing in men. There's certain forms of depression in men who have relatively low testosterone that seems to improve in some men when they are supplemented with testosterone.And, uh, so there is a link there. I don't think it's very well understood but it does... There are also, in, um, trans men, they say often that when they have their testosterone injection, if that's how they're getting it, that they get a mood boost from that and then that wanes kind of over time.

   20. CWChris Williamson24:31

       This would make sense because women on average are more, uh, neurotic than men. Is that-

   21. CHDr Carole Hooven24:38

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CWChris Williamson24:38

       What's the... They're also more... What's the personality trait? Neuroticism. Yeah. They're higher in neuroticism than males are.

   23. CHDr Carole Hooven24:44

       Yeah. Yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson24:44

       All right, I- I really want you to get into this. What

5. 24:47 – 32:24

   Men’s Natural Instinct to Objectify

   1. CWChris Williamson24:47

      happens when females go on testosterone? How do they report alterations in their experience of life?

   2. CHDr Carole Hooven24:56

      Um, so what was puberty like for you?

   3. CWChris Williamson24:59

      Fantastic.

   4. CHDr Carole Hooven25:01

      Why?

   5. CWChris Williamson25:02

      Because I could get an erection with a gust of wind that was at the right angle.

   6. CHDr Carole Hooven25:06

      (laughs) And you didn't mind that?

   7. CWChris Williamson25:07

      Oh, y- of course I did.

   8. CHDr Carole Hooven25:08

      You liked-

   9. CWChris Williamson25:08

      It was just hilarious. I just found it absolutely hilarious.

   10. CHDr Carole Hooven25:12

       Okay. But so, you got a lot of erections. Were you... Would you say that, uh, that was correlated with any psychological state of mind?

   11. CWChris Williamson25:22

       I had an obsession with the Spice Girls for quite a while. Uh, that was like a-

   12. CHDr Carole Hooven25:26

       Okay.

   13. CWChris Williamson25:26

       That was a hot thing for me.

   14. CHDr Carole Hooven25:27

       (laughs)

   15. CWChris Williamson25:27

       And there were five of them as well so it was like a variety pack. Um-

   16. CHDr Carole Hooven25:31

       Oh, that's so funny. (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson25:32

       (laughs) I know. Uh, but yeah. I mean, you're constantly thinking about sex. Uh, I think you begin to, or at least I was more attuned to status as well, uh, during that time.

   18. CHDr Carole Hooven25:42

       Interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson25:44

       Um, I finally actually started to realize what kind of a social hierarchy was going on. But yeah, I mean, the- the- the prevalent thing was what was going on between my legs.

   20. CHDr Carole Hooven25:53

       Yeah. So, obviously girls are also increa- get- having an increase in libido, but the number one psychological change, you know, in addition to feeling an- a sen- you know, for a lot of people obviously an increased sense of freedom to express who they are. But the- the number one psychological change is a... Again, and there's variance here and that's important to say, not everybody-

   21. CWChris Williamson26:16

       You don't need, you don't need to pre- present that caveat.

   22. CHDr Carole Hooven26:19

       Keep saying that?

   23. CWChris Williamson26:19

       Yeah. Everybody knows. Everyone that's listening is reasonable and they have got-

   24. CHDr Carole Hooven26:22

       Okay.

   25. CWChris Williamson26:22

       ... sick of me saying "on average" enough.

   26. CHDr Carole Hooven26:24

       Okay.

   27. CWChris Williamson26:25

       They know.

   28. CHDr Carole Hooven26:25

       Thank you. I just, yeah, have been on the receiving end of people saying, "Well I didn't... That didn't happen to me," and yeah, this is all on average from here on out. So, the- the number one change people experience is this... For a woman, for somebody who's been living as a woman, a really sort of overpowering and even shocking obsession with sex, because it's not th- especially for, um, females who transition later in life and they are used to being the target of sexual, you know, intense, uh, sexual desire. And even a lot of these people are lesbians, and they have resented the way that men have looked at them or looked at their breasts. Obviously, you know, a lot of women do resent that, but if you're a female who then goes on to transition, I have heard now from several, uh, trans men, people who lived as females and then transitioned, that their libido went through the roof. They were shocked by it. They were disturbed by it. Some, um, felt that this is okay because this is what it's like to be... Live as a man. But most of them said, "I get it now. I'm looking at this other person, whether they're attracted to men or women, I'm attracted to their butt. I'm attracted to their boobs. I can't stop thinking about their body parts." And they described having a change in their patterns of attraction where when they were living... And I'm not even making this up, it so st- sounds like such a stereotype. But when they were living as women, the target of their attraction was a whole (laughs) person. Like, the... It was much more about the whole human being in relationship to them, and then on male levels of testosterone it was, like, more objectified. And... The target of their sexual attraction was more objectified. It didn't prevent intimacy but there was a whole other aspect to sexuality that, um, opened up. So, that is the number one thing that people have said in they said it gives them a huge amount of insight into men and empathy for men because this is something that they have to deal with and learn how to deal with socially. And women are just like, "You're..." You know, think that guys are just being assholes when they, um, might look at their breasts or something. And yes, you know, guys should not look, like, like stare at women's breasts in ways that make them uncomfortable, but it is something that, uh, women don't really understand because we're not, like, staring at guys' penises or something a lot. Like, that's just not a thing, and that's why men don't wear clothes generally where (laughs) , you know, their outline of their penis is showing-

   29. CWChris Williamson29:17

       I- I-

   30. CHDr Carole Hooven29:17

       ... because we don't really wanna see that.
6. 32:24 – 37:27

   How Women Can Understand the Male Sex Drive

   1. CHDr Carole Hooven32:24

      ...

   2. CWChris Williamson32:24

      Do you think that women can appreciate what sex drive is like for a man without going through a short course of testosterone and getting jacked at the same time?

   3. CHDr Carole Hooven32:35

      Mm, I think I, w- in writing the book and just talking to so many men, I mean, it has taken a huge amount of work for me... I, I, I always do this, I get very emotional about this, um, and I've, uh, I've been, some people have given me a hard time for that because I'm not being a good feminist or something. I'm not man-hating enough. Um-

   4. CWChris Williamson32:58

      Shame on you.

   5. CHDr Carole Hooven33:00

      No, but I really... (sighs) I mean, it's okay, it's funny it's about sex, but it's also kind of tragic because I feel like this is what nature, this, these are the ways that nature has shaped men. It's easy for women to... And, and I understand, and I have been angry myself about the way that men sometimes behave. Um, what, I don't even know what you're... What did you ask me? (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson33:24

      Is it possible, is it possible for women... (laughs)

   7. CHDr Carole Hooven33:26

      To under... Yeah. So, no, I guess I do feel like I have an understanding, and you're gonna laugh but I had a dre- I had a dream when I was writing the book that I felt this kind of attraction, I think it was to a woman's body, um, just, like, standing around in the kitchen. This was in the dream. And I, in the dream, felt like, how can I... Like, she was just a problem standing in the way of me being able to touch her body, and I had to figure out... I was, like, so drawn to her body and I had to figure out how to deal with her to get to the body. And it was a really strong drive, and I felt it only in the dream. And when I woke up, I felt like, "Oh my god, this must be it." It must be that women are almost standing in the way of men being able to have their bodies. And I felt like, "I get it," and if that's what testosterone is doing, I feel bad for the men because in the dream I knew it was wrong and bad of me to not pay attention to this woman, but it was like I had to have the body, and it was almost like food and I was starving and I had to have it.

   8. CWChris Williamson34:40

      That's-

   9. CHDr Carole Hooven34:40

      And I just felt like, "Oh my god, if that's it, then I feel really bad for everybody j- judging..."

   10. CWChris Williamson34:47

       That is a nice summation.

   11. CHDr Carole Hooven34:49

       ... judging men." (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson34:50

       It's a nice summation of, of what it's like. I think the male sex drive really does seem to have been pathologized, I think, uh, in recent years. And I spend a good bit of time in the gym and I find it as interesting to watch other guys when girls in gym leggings walk past because I get to see this Mexican wave of eyeballs (makes wobbling sound) . Like, everybody will turn and look. All of the guys are just, "Oh, I'm in between sets," or, "I'm doing whatever," or someone will be talking to their friend and they'll be looking at their friend like that, just over their shoulder. (laughs) Staring past them as some girl walks past in the distance. And, I, I understand the point that you're trying to make there about the fact that you are castigating men for an innate, in-built reward mechanism that they didn't choose to have and saying that anything close to acting on that is toxic masculinity, and it is you being part of a patriarchal superstructure that's oppressively keeping women down and blah, blah, blah. And there is basically nothing else that I think we would get to at this stage of modern society where someone's innate preferences would be treated with so much distaste. You know? Like, why, why would it be the case that the way someone is built... Can you imagine if you said this to somebody that's gay? To say, "Well, yeah, look, you know, you've got this particular, uh..."

   13. CHDr Carole Hooven36:23

       Yeah, but I... Oh, yeah. (sighs) But I think the reason is, you know, because of sexual assault and sexual violence and just male violence in general, and you just happen to be a member of the group that's responsible for all that.... bad stuff. Uh, so I think it's different than, like, maternal instinct or being gay, because it's, you know, when taken to an extreme, or if left unchecked, then we're all in trouble because it's powerful and kinda scary. Um, however, any woman could have been born male, and so I don't see why women get to be so judgy. Because if, if any of the women who are saying, who are throwing around this term toxic masculinity, if they were born male would they kn- what would they do? How, how do they even know what it's like to be a man? They, uh, they don't. Um, and that is step one, is to understand what is going on, and to try to listen and have some empathy.

7. 37:27 – 46:36

   Orgasm Differences Between Genders

   1. CHDr Carole Hooven37:27

   2. CWChris Williamson37:27

      Can you explain the changes in orgasm quality, duration, and sensation that people go through when they have... I'm not making this up. This was you, right, that had a look at some of this stuff?

   3. CHDr Carole Hooven37:39

      Yeah. I just, I have to say here especially, I know that there's variation because I, people have told me, who have transitioned, that they don't have these kinds of orgasms. But according to the literate, the scientific literature, and most of the people I've talked to, this is the case. And I did not know, I feel, uh, that I should've known this before. I did not know that men and women have really different, um, I mean obviously the orgasm exper- experience (laughs) is different 'cause men have a penis and women have a vagina. But what I didn't know is that a woman's orgasm is much more likely to be a longer-lasting, full body, uh, experience. The men's orgasm is more likely to have more intensity at the peak, but be, uh, shorter-lived and more localized to the genitalia, like to that area.

   4. CWChris Williamson38:33

      Okay.

   5. CHDr Carole Hooven38:33

      That is on average. And I've had, uh, a couple trans, more than a couple trans people tell me they prefer... And even a transwoman who detransitioned, so she went from living as a woman to then living, uh, as a man with high testosterone for four years, fully masculinized, looked, you know, 100% like a man, and then she detransitioned. So, she was able to talk about what it's like to be, live as a man, as a woman, um, if that makes sense. She said she likes the orgasms off of testosterone and, uh, appreciates the emu- access to her full range of emotions that she felt was limited on testosterone. And this is also consistent with the scientific literature. Were you on Joe Rogan recently?

   6. CWChris Williamson39:27

      Yes.

   7. CHDr Carole Hooven39:27

      Okay. So, I was also on, and we both cried a fair amount.

   8. CWChris Williamson39:32

      I listened.

   9. CHDr Carole Hooven39:32

      And we talked about crying. Okay, he is this very mac, really like, really masculine guy. He takes a lot of testosterone. And he was bawling his eyes (laughs) bawling his eyes out. That is unusual. So, going on testosterone usually stops or, like, really greatly reduces crying. Um, and coming off it, um, increases crying back to sort of typical female levels, which are much, much higher than male levels. Um, yeah, you only asked about orgasms, but I think, uh, it's that full body kind of emotional experience that is associated with more of an emotional connection, more access to a wide range of emotions. And I'll just say that w- people describe, and again the literature suggests this is true, that going on testosterone makes it harder for men to access these emotions except for anger. It's not that anger necessarily goes up. It's that out of all the emotions, that is one that is most easily, uh, accessed.

   10. CWChris Williamson40:38

       That's interesting. Have you heard the, uh, quote, I think it's Schopenhauer or Nietzsche or someone that says, "After copulation, the devil's laughter can be heard?" And what he's talking about is post-nut clarity, or kind of the-

   11. CHDr Carole Hooven40:51

       Oh my God. Yes.

   12. CWChris Williamson40:53

       ... post-coital depression that some men deal with.

   13. CHDr Carole Hooven40:56

       Sorry, post... I hope my students see this because they taught me (laughs) in this, uh, was this this past spring? Um, so, they give talks. They give, I was at a, at a seminar and they were giving little talks, and someone joked at the end of the talk about post-nut clarity. And, and I love my students and we have close relationships. And, um, so I had no idea what that (laughs) I had no idea what that was. Um, and he explained it to me, and all the students were, were like, "Yeah, everyone knows what that is." Um, yeah, and it makes sense. Does your viewers, I assume, know what post-nut clarity is?

   14. CWChris Williamson41:38

       I think so, but I mean, I'm gonna guess. Uh, is that a male phenomenon? Do women have post-nut clarity?

   15. CHDr Carole Hooven41:45

       (laughs) Um, I imagine. I mean, if they're drunk or something, then, you know, when it actually happens, then

   16. NANarrator41:52

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson41:52

       N of one here, Carol. You, come on.

   18. CHDr Carole Hooven41:55

       Um, I don't think so. I don't know. That doesn't-

   19. CWChris Williamson42:00

       Okay. So, I, I, I think-

   20. CHDr Carole Hooven42:01

       ... feel right for me, but I, and I, I'm probably pretty typical. Um...

   21. CWChris Williamson42:05

       I think that could be true.

   22. CHDr Carole Hooven42:06

       No, I think it's men are much more willing to lower whate- their standards, or their, uh...

   23. CWChris Williamson42:11

       So, I think another, another element of it is that, uh, post... This is total bro science, right, but come, come with me here.

   24. CHDr Carole Hooven42:19

       Okay. Uh, yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson42:21

       Post-coitally, it makes sense for a woman to try and pair bond more with the guy than the other way around.

   26. CHDr Carole Hooven42:31

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson42:31

       That's not to say that men shouldn't pair bond with, with the woman, but there is a greater need, if the woman has just given up one of the main risk factors that she can in her entire life, it makes more sense for... So, whatever the harsh light of the pillow, or whatever you wanna call it, um, having seen that-... as a man, may make you think, "Okay, let's just reassess my options here. Do I really want to stick about with this particular woman-

   28. CHDr Carole Hooven42:54

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson42:54

       ... or should I see if there's something a little bit better out there? Maybe I should consider my status-seeking. Maybe I should think about my position within the hierarchy or other things that I've got going on that are gonna release a ton of acid, pressing, and other shit, because maybe I need to do that in order, there's maybe is a kid here in nine months time and I gotta get myself to the top of the, the tree with regards to this." There are a lot more dynamics that I can think of that would encourage a man to not be all fluffy and nice after sex, and would have this devil-

   30. CHDr Carole Hooven43:25

       Take, have a period of evaluation-
8. 46:36 – 56:28

   Is Sex a Spectrum?

   1. CHDr Carole Hooven46:36

   2. CWChris Williamson46:36

      Is sex a spectrum? Don't give me that look.

   3. CHDr Carole Hooven46:41

      Uh, um, just it's a big change. Um, it, it is not. No, it's not. Uh, the traits associated with sex can be on a spectrum, but sex itself is not on a spectrum.

   4. CWChris Williamson46:55

      Do in-

   5. CHDr Carole Hooven46:55

      And it doesn't have to be. You can still, males and females can express themselves however they want. It doesn't have to be limited by their sex. But yeah, there's only two.

   6. CWChris Williamson47:06

      Do intersex people disprove this?

   7. CHDr Carole Hooven47:11

      Uh, oh, it's not just... Okay, first of all you have to define what intersex is. This is a term that is thrown around a lot and statistics are thrown around, and, uh, the idea is that there's all of these people who are neither male nor female, and that is just not true. I mean, there are an exceeding, there's 0.02% of people who have genetic traits that, uh, don't match their sex. So, they may have, um, something that looks like a vagina even though they're male, uh, for instance. Or they might have something that looks like a penis even though they're female. But even in those very rare cases, they're still male or female. So, intersex doesn't really mean having no sex or not being male nor female. There's exceedingly rare cases, much smaller than 0.02, uh, of people who have gonadal tissue of both sexes, and there we may not know whether they're male or female or you might not even be able to say. Uh, but that doesn't mean that we're not a species with two sexes, like almost every, uh, uh, like all mammals for instance, and w- vertebrates, almost all. There's two sexes. We cannot change sex. There are other species that have two sexes but can't ... they might be, uh, simultaneous hermaphrodites or they might be sequential hermaphrodites, but they still have male and female. But mammals and most vertebrates are not.... that kind. We only have male and female, and we can't change our sex over the lifetime. But the point there is, it really doesn't matter for most things. Some things like maybe prison cells or sports teams, you know, where bodies really matter, then sex matters, and then we have a right to know what kind of, what sex we're dealing with. But this scientific fact should not limit anybody's ability to express themselves. That is the point, and we don't need to pretend that there aren't two sexes in order to try to support, again, anybody's rights. And I just, this drives me crazy because it's destroying science and the scientific method, and it's, um, not taking us in the right direction, in my view.

   8. CWChris Williamson49:33

      Rolling the lifespan forward a little bit, what about behavior differences in boys and girls that are toddlers? I'm gonna guess that testosterone plays-

   9. CHDr Carole Hooven49:45

      (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson49:45

       ... less of a role at this stage than it would do when you look at an adult male and an adult female, or am I wrong?

   11. CHDr Carole Hooven49:52

       I, I, you might be wrong. Um, it's, you know, I'm not sure how to quantify, but what's amazing about childhood is that, and the, the huge differences we see between girls and boys, um, is that those come about because of differential exposure to testosterone in utero and shortly after birth. So, male babies have this spike of testosterone for a few months after they're born, and it is permanently changing the brain. And I guess the reason I think that's so important is because this occurs so early in life, and it occurs, I'm gonna say despite the efforts of, uh, despite socialization, because there are a lot of kids who are gender-nonconforming. There are a lot of, say, boys who are gonna grow up to be gay who don't have those typical masculine characteristics as ki- as a kid. They don't, uh, enjoy, like, tackling their friends, and they wanna hang out with girls, and they wanna do more talking, and they want smaller groups. And a lot of those kids' parents are trying to socialize them as, like, typical boys, right? And those kids are getting bullied by their boy peers especially, and they can't help it. That's who they are. You know, they're a little bit more effeminate, or a lot more, uh, effeminate than a typical boy. So, I do not buy that kids are socialized into, um, these different types of behavior. There's just no evidence for that, and it parallels what we see in non-human animals, where, um, male juvenile chimpanzees are more active and more physical and prefer more rough-and-tumble play. Male, you know, rats are the ones who like to tackle each other and have rough-and-tumble play, and it looks like it's fun for them. And you can manipulate that, um, rough-and-tumble play by changing testosterone exposure. So, you can take a female rat and give her testosterone, um, in the perinatal period, and she'll play like a boy. You can take a boy rat and deprive him of testosterone, and he'll play like a girl. And this makes sense because this is a reproductive strategy that boys are practicing, or male animals are practicing, through play. It's male-male competition. You gotta learn how to compete physically. You gotta learn what the cues are. You learn when to back off, and it has to be fun or else you're not gonna do it, and this is an important skill for male reproduction. And then, we know, in humans, that girls who are exposed to higher-than-average levels of testosterone are more, like, uh, are masculinized. Their play is masculinized. They are, they prefer boy toys more than girls who don't have high, um, testosterone. They have, you know, they're more likely to prefer rough-and-tumble play. So, we see the same thing in humans as we see in non-human animals. So, that, I think, is strong... Those sex differences, I think, are really important because they haven't, those kids haven't grown up in society yet. They haven't experienced the patriarchy (laughs) or whatever. You know, I don't like the word actually, the patriarchy, but they haven't experienced al- as much gender socialization, which there is a huge amount in every culture. Uh, so the fact that we see those differences so young I think is really powerful evidence, um, that testosterone shapes them, you know, and they're similar to what an- other animals do.

   12. CWChris Williamson53:30

       It's like that, uh, Chelsea Conaby where she said, uh, "Uh, one that has stuck around despite the best efforts of feminists (laughs) to debunk it from the moment it entered public discourse."

   13. CHDr Carole Hooven53:41

       That's what I'm dealing with, the best efforts of feminists to debunk, like, a lot of what I'm saying, but it keeps coming back up. (laughs)

   14. CWChris Williamson53:48

       It's a- it's almost like it's inbuilt. It's almost like it's inbuilt. Are there any, are there any correlations or relationships between testosterone and gender identity or sexual preference?

   15. CHDr Carole Hooven54:02

       Yeah, there aren't a lot. There aren't a lot. So, what's interesting about men is, like we were talking about before, so gay men are very masculine in terms of their, uh, sexual psychology, right? They're sort of just typical men, except they wanna have sex with other men. I mean, that's the only difference really, in terms of the sexual psychology, so that's a very masculine phenotype. So, and that's one of the main things testosterone does, is condition that male sexuality, right? So, just from that evidence, I wouldn't expect there to be any lack of testosterone along the way, and there isn't that we know of.What is interesting is there are other differences in, um, gay men on average that have to do with, uh, some ways in which they're feminized in terms of, like, occupational interests, um, physical aggression. And so, it's possible there's some timing difference in testosterone exposure or something, um, in utero, but I... there's no evidence for that. Um, and then in women, there's some evidence that increased testosterone in utero has masculinizing effects on gender identity. So, this is the same population of people I was talking about before who have congenital adrenal hyperplasia where they have high testosterone in utero, but it's normalized at birth. Um, so even they go through a normal female puberty, they're still more likely to be lesbians, more likely to have a male gender identity. Uh, so there seems to be some effect in females, but, um, we don't s- necessarily see the same thing in males. And the, the data on the fe- females is not super convincing to me.

   16. CWChris Williamson55:59

       Why?

   17. CHDr Carole Hooven56:01

       Because there are plenty of, uh, lesbians who don't have congenital adrenal hyperplasia and the... we just don't have the ability to collect really good data on, uh, prenatal testosterone, period. We have, like, the 2D40, which you g- might have heard of. Um, there's some evidence that lesbians might have more masculinized 2D40s, but I'm not super convinced by that.

9. 56:28 – 1:07:59

   Differences in Arousal Between Genders

   1. CWChris Williamson56:28

      I learned from Christina Duranti, if you know her.

   2. CHDr Carole Hooven56:32

      Yeah, I know her name.

   3. CWChris Williamson56:33

      Yeah, so she did-

   4. CHDr Carole Hooven56:35

      I'm sure I didn't

   5. CWChris Williamson56:35

      know who she was. ... a really cool study where she got an actor to read a Hollywood script. Uh, this guy was trained. One of the characters that he played was a bad boy, and the bad boy had a twin, and the twin was a nerd, but they were both the same guy. The same guy-

   6. CHDr Carole Hooven56:51

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson56:51

      ... reading a different script with a different hairdo and whatever, and they brought women in. It was to check about ovulatory cycle attraction and whether or not women would presume that the bad boy was actually a better long-term mate prospect. What are the sort of words that they used to describe him?

   8. CHDr Carole Hooven57:07

      Oh, I see.

   9. CWChris Williamson57:07

      Are they saying things like they think that he would clean up around the house and be a good father and so on and so forth? And does this change based on whether they are or are not ovulating? But the most interesting thing, and she just fl- threw it away as this flippant line, she didn't just study straight women, she studied gay women as well.

   10. CHDr Carole Hooven57:24

       Oh.

   11. CWChris Williamson57:24

       They brought gay women in-

   12. CHDr Carole Hooven57:25

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson57:25

       ... to speak to this guy. And I was saying, "Well, look, like, if you're not attracted to the guy, presumably the gay women just didn't make any difference."

   14. CHDr Carole Hooven57:32

       Oh. Oh. No, they did. It did.

   15. CWChris Williamson57:33

       And she said... And I was like, "Well," you know, uh, one of the examples was one of the girls said to the bad boy, she was ovulating, o- one of the girls said to the bad boy, "I'm going away to Vegas, uh, this weekend with my friend." Whereas to the nerd, she said, "I'm going away to Vegas this weekend with my boyfriend." So, little things that had snuck out.

   16. CHDr Carole Hooven57:51

       Wait, the lesbian said that?

   17. CWChris Williamson57:52

       No, no, no, no, no. This is the, the straight woman, right?

   18. CHDr Carole Hooven57:54

       Right.

   19. CWChris Williamson57:55

       So, you had these very-

   20. CHDr Carole Hooven57:56

       Yeah, I see.

   21. CWChris Williamson57:57

       ... more obvious, more conscious sort of, e- even though it's probably still subconscious, a more out there, obvious display of whatever you wanna call it, like mate, mates, uh, anonymity or whatever. However, they looked at non-verbal cues as well, stuff like body language, stuff like playing with their hair, and the lesbian women who were ovulating were showing more non-verbal cues of flirting to the guy who was a sex that they are not attracted to sexually. I thought that was so (laughs) , so interesting.

   22. CHDr Carole Hooven58:32

       It's interesting, but I am always skeptical of s- findings from one study because I don't know anything about the study. It sounds amazing, but it is consistent with the idea that female sexuality is more flexible than male sexuality and more fluid. Um-

   23. CWChris Williamson58:49

       Significantly more bisexual women than there are bisexual men.

   24. CHDr Carole Hooven58:51

       Yes. Yes. Yes. And that, you know, women, you know about the studies showing that when men watch pornography their penis tells the truth, basically. So if a guy says, "I am, um, heterosexual," then if he's telling the truth, he gets an erection only to... in response to pornography that shows a man and a woman, and he really is not aroused when he sees two men, um, interacting sexually. So, if a woman says, "I'm heterosexual" (laughs) , sure, her vagina will lubricate b- it's not... i- i- it's the vaginal photoplethysmograph which, which measures blood flow to the vagina. The, the guy uses

   25. CWChris Williamson59:37

       Say that again?

   26. CHDr Carole Hooven59:39

       So, the... what the scientists do is they put a little ring around the guy's penis.

   27. CWChris Williamson59:43

       Yes.

   28. CHDr Carole Hooven59:44

       And as the circumference increases, so it gets harder, you know, blood flow to the penis, that's the, um, penile plethysmograph can... will be con- um, consistent with his subjective reports of how turned on he is if he's telling the truth. So... and guys who say they're heterosexual actually do show then, um, objective arousal to the heterosexual stimuli. Whereas women who say they're heterosexual will... it's the, um, vaginal photoplethysmograph, which is this glass tube that works on light refraction. So, as the vagina is engorged with blood, that is taken as an index o- of, uh, sexual arousal. Um, she will get this to all sexual stimuli, including bonobos having sex, whereas the men...... um, and that's in relation to watching some boring, like, travel documentary or something-

   29. CWChris Williamson1:00:47

       That's the control.

   30. CHDr Carole Hooven1:00:48

       ... um, kind of evidence showing that fe- that female sexuality is in fact more fluid. And then we have all this behavioral evidence, uh, and it's just not sort of categorically rigid in the same way that male sexuality is. Of course we have male bisexual men too, but you're right, they're much more rare than bisexual females.
10. 1:07:59 – 1:13:13

    Why Hand Grip Strength is Important

    1. CHDr Carole Hooven1:07:59

    2. CWChris Williamson1:07:59

       The other element which wasn't included in this study that I f-

    3. CHDr Carole Hooven1:08:03

       Yeah.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:08:03

       ... I always come back to as being absolutely fascinating, is the relationship between hand grip strength and-

    5. CHDr Carole Hooven1:08:09

       Yeah.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:08:09

       ... pretty much anything that you care-

    7. CHDr Carole Hooven1:08:11

       Everything.

    8. CWChris Williamson1:08:11

       ... care about for men.

    9. CHDr Carole Hooven1:08:12

       Everything.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:08:12

        Can you explain that?

    11. CHDr Carole Hooven1:08:14

        Yeah. Um, so, I think that hand grip is interesting because it's not one of the things that people typically work on. I think it, it's like a pure index of the effect of testosterone on someone's overall strength and it's one of the best predictors of somebody's overall strength. Um, and it's one of the largest sex differences. So, uh, and that is purely a function of testosterone differences. So, it's not, uh ... I think you can find that, a very strong difference there, in con- um, where you have equally trained athletes, for instance, and you still have the male grip strength ... Is it 50% or, uh-

    12. CWChris Williamson1:08:56

        Maybe even more, I think.

    13. CHDr Carole Hooven1:08:57

        ... more? I think it could be-

    14. CWChris Williamson1:08:58

        Yeah.

    15. CHDr Carole Hooven1:08:58

        ... even more.

    16. CWChris Williamson1:08:58

        I think it wouldn't surprise me if it was more. But it's like, it's correlated-

    17. CHDr Carole Hooven1:09:02

        Um-

    18. CWChris Williamson1:09:02

        ... um, a number of sexual partners. It's the, it's the strongest predictor of the number of sexual partners that you can have.

    19. CHDr Carole Hooven1:09:08

        Grip strength?

    20. CWChris Williamson1:09:08

        Yes (laughs) .

    21. CHDr Carole Hooven1:09:09

        So, it must be becau- well, I think because you don't have any other individual-

    22. CWChris Williamson1:09:14

        Yes.

    23. CHDr Carole Hooven1:09:14

        ... um, uh, variable fr-

    24. CWChris Williamson1:09:17

        Yes.

    25. CHDr Carole Hooven1:09:17

        ... of, of physical strength because like, in sports, in each sport you're gonna have a different muscle group that, or, or a height-

    26. CWChris Williamson1:09:26

        Is optimized for.

    27. CHDr Carole Hooven1:09:26

        ... or-

    28. CWChris Williamson1:09:26

        Yeah.

    29. CHDr Carole Hooven1:09:26

        ... whatever, or VO2, or, you know, where males have advantages in all of those on average. But it depends on your specific body type.

    30. CWChris Williamson1:09:34

        Mm.
11. 1:13:13 – 1:20:38

    Where to Find Carole

    1. CWChris Williamson1:13:13

       Uh, if people want to check out the stuff that you do and follow you online, where should they go?

    2. CHDr Carole Hooven1:13:18

       Uh, Twitter, I am @hoovlet, H-O-O-V-L-E-T. And I have a website that I have to update which is carolhooven.com. And I'm trying to, this is very embarrassing, but figure out how to use Instagram so I have an Instagram. I'm trying to, like, start to post things. I don't really understand it yet.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:13:39

       What's that? Shill it. Shill it. What is it?

    4. CHDr Carole Hooven1:13:41

       Oh, God, I don't know (laughs) I don't know.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:13:43

       Come on (laughs) . Carol, the first thing you need to know-

    6. CHDr Carole Hooven1:13:47

       I know, I don't-

    7. CWChris Williamson1:13:47

       ... about your Instagram is what your Instagram is.

    8. CHDr Carole Hooven1:13:49

       Okay, right. I should be prepared. Um, it's important, Instagram, right? How, okay, do I just go to My Story? How do I get who I am here?

    9. CWChris Williamson1:13:57

       It'll, it should, go on your profile. This is-

    10. CHDr Carole Hooven1:14:00

        Okay. Here, I'm just gonna-

    11. CWChris Williamson1:14:03

        Wh- what's it say? What's it say at the top? @carol.hooven. Cool.

    12. CHDr Carole Hooven1:14:10

        Is that what-

    13. CWChris Williamson1:14:10

        Yes, carol.hooven at the top.

    14. CHDr Carole Hooven1:14:12

        And there's me and Dr. Phil.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:14:14

        You look good. Dr. Phil looks good as well.

    16. CHDr Carole Hooven1:14:16

        And there's, okay.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:14:17

        Is that a doggo? You got a doggo in there?

    18. CHDr Carole Hooven1:14:20

        That's my cat.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:14:21

        Oh, okay.

    20. CHDr Carole Hooven1:14:22

        That's my c- I posted two pictures of my cat. Uh, that's old. That's dumb. All right, I love my cat.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:14:26

        Wishful, wishful identification from me with the, with the cat-

    22. CHDr Carole Hooven1:14:29

        (laughs)

    23. CWChris Williamson1:14:30

        ... cat to dog misgendering there. Um, and again-

    24. CHDr Carole Hooven1:14:33

        Sorry.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:14:33

        Go, see-

    26. CHDr Carole Hooven1:14:34

        There's my little cat.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:14:34

        ... that's, that's-

    28. CHDr Carole Hooven1:14:35

        Yeah, all right.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:14:35

        ... what we need to see more of.

    30. CHDr Carole Hooven1:14:36

        (laughs)

Episode duration: 1:20:38