EVERY SPOKEN WORD
80 min read · 15,718 words- 0:00 – 15:00
(wind blowing) Hello, friends. This…
- CWChris Williamson
(wind blowing) Hello, friends. This week I'm sitting down with Dr. Mario Livio. He's an internationally known astrophysicist, a fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, bestselling author, and a popular speaker. His new book, Why? What Makes Us Curious, is a bit of a departure away from his previous topics on physics and astrophysics, and it's really, really interesting. The field of curiosity is a lot deeper and more complex than I thought. Curiosity sounds like one word. Turns out that it is a whole host (laughs) of very different and subtle things that all contribute together to manifest what we consider to be curiosity. So through the lens of the great Richard Feynman, Leonardo da Vinci, and many other famous historic examples, Dr. Livio manages to lay out, uh, a lovely landscape for us to understand curiosity in this podcast. I owe an awful lot for finding time to come and speak to me. I'm trying to avoid too much public audible masturbation here while I, (laughs) uh, while I introduce this particular podcast but feeling very excited about the next few months. I have booked, without a doubt, some of the best minds on the planet to come on this podcast. Mr. Jonathan Haidt, author of The Righteous Mind, is coming on. Rory Sutherland, vice chairman of Ogilvy Advertising, which is one of the biggest advertising companies in the world, Tiago Forte of the Praxis Blog, plus an awful lot of other guests that I can't even talk about yet. And on top of that, myself, Johnny, and Yusuf are doing our first ever live podcast this week for CommuniCorp's Christmas conference. Now, CommuniCorp own Smooth FM, Capital FM, and a number of different areas, along with a few other broadcasting companies, and for some reason, they are allowing us to sit down in front of all of their marketing executives this Thursday and talk about influence, the podcasting platform generally, and doing a live Q&A onstage in front of an audience at the Tyneside Cinema. So although my sphincter is puckering with the nerves, I'm absolutely buzzing to get stuck in, and hopefully, as long as they let me do it, I'll actually be publishing the podcast live through this channel as well. In the meantime, we're going to find out what makes us curious. Here's Dr. Livio. (upbeat music) Mario Livio, welcome to Modern Wisdom. How are you today?
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Thank you. It's my pleasure.
- CWChris Williamson
It's really good to have you on. So when I was having a look at the different options (laughs) to go through for this podcast with yourself, your backlog of books is, uh, it's pretty vast. There's an awful lot (laughs) that we could have decided to cover, um, but your most recent book is on curiosity. That's right.
- MLDr. Mario Livio
All right. Yes. And it-
- CWChris Williamson
So-
- MLDr. Mario Livio
It's called Why? What Makes Us Curious.
- CWChris Williamson
That's a departure from the maths-
- MLDr. Mario Livio
(beep) .
- CWChris Williamson
... maths and physics based books that you've published before. What's the reason for this move towards this... This... What, uh, what particular curiosity drove you to write about curiosity?
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Right. So, uh, indeed it is a departure. I am an astrophysicist myself, and all my previous books were either about, you know, physics, mathematics, things like that, astrophysics. Uh, I'm neither a psychologist nor a neuroscientist. So, uh, indeed this is a departure. But what happened was that I was always, and still am, an extraordinarily curious person, and about five years ago or so, a little more, I just became extremely curious about curiosity itself. So I spent the last five years or so, um, you know, reading almost, uh, every article that, you know, about research that was done on curiosity in both psychology and neuroscience. Uh, I interviewed many researchers that work in this field, actually not that many because not that many work in this field specifically, um, and I visited some labs, and, uh, this resulted in this book.
- CWChris Williamson
Is it, to a broad degree, quite new ground then that you've been doing, putting the work of what is curiosity together? You said that there doesn't appear to be a vast body of knowledge that already exists. Was... Did this require a lot of work on your part?
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Yes, a lot of work on my part. Uh, I mean, look, uh, let's face it. I mean, uh, the researchers in psychology and in neuroscience, they do the real work on curiosity. Uh, what I have done was trying to put together, um, you know, some sort of a summary of the type of work that they have been doing. Um, uh, I, I did discover that, you know, some of them, uh, are so immersed in, uh, very, very specific topics regarding curiosity that, um, y- you know, sometimes even they are not fully aware of the whole, uh, picture, you know, in, in terms of the research done in this field. So hopefully my book, uh, you know, does serve some purpose of, uh, uh, trying to give the slightly bigger picture, even if by a nonspecialist.
- CWChris Williamson
I suppose that coming from outside of the field affords you the learner's mind and allows you to see everything with a fresh perspective, which obviously means that your...... able to draw from all of the different subject areas. So if we're going to begin with the book, then where does it start? Does it begin with what makes us curious or what curiosity is? Did you manage to define curiosity?
- MLDr. Mario Livio
So it starts more with some sort of a definition, but the definition turned out to be more complex than I originally thought. Uh, and it was in fact, uh, psychologist Daniel Berlyne, um, who some years back, uh, defined at least four types of curiosity. And I started with that. There are actually, by the way, more than the four that he defined, but- but that is a good starting point. So I started with that, by defining these four types, which I'm happy to explain what they are, um, in- in order to, you know, really get more ... later more deeply into what each one of them means.
- CWChris Williamson
Absolutely. Yeah, let's fire away.
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Yes. So, um, the four types that he described were perceptual curiosity. Uh, a- again, the- the names are names given by him. Perceptual curiosity is the curiosity we feel when something surprises us, or when something doesn't quite agree with what we know or think we know, or you know, when, um, something is ambiguous. We don't know is it that or is it that. Um, uh, think, uh, for example, I don't know, of, uh, some children in some remote village in Tibet, uh, seeing a white person for the first time. Uh, that's perceptual curiosity. Then there is epistemic curiosity. Uh, that's a curiosity that drives all scientific research. It drives also the best works of art. This is when we really ask why and try to understand things more deeply. Um, uh, you know, everything I've done in astrophysics was driven by this type of astro- uh, by, uh, epistemic curiosity. Uh, then there are two other types. Uh, Berlyne actually put them on- on axis, you know, like- like axis in- in, uh, in mathematics, you know. So on the axis that's perpendicular to the one I just described, he put two other types of curiosity. One he called diversive curiosity. Um, that's maybe the most common manifestation of that is, you know, young people today who are constantly on their cell phones, uh, checking for text messages. Basically, you know, it's the type of things we do to ward off boredom, uh, and things like that, or you know, when somebody's, uh, waiting impatiently to see what the new iPhone model will look like, or-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Yeah.
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Yeah. Um, and then there is specific curiosity. Specific curiosity is curiosity about a very specific thing, you know, like, uh, uh, who- who was it that, uh, wrote, uh, The Dead ... The Old Man and the Sea? Or, uh, uh, what was the name of the actress in the French movie we saw last week? You know, and things like that. Um, so that's- these are the four types that he described.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. And do those tend towards particular personality types? Was there a correlation that was shown between why someone may have a particular kind of curiosity?
- MLDr. Mario Livio
I- I think all people have, to some degree, all of these four. Uh, I mean, you know, I'm sure you had times when you tried to ... you were curious about something very specific. You- you- you, you know, you wanted to remember, oh, what- what was it that we did there, you know, at that restaurant or whatever. So that's specific curiosity. Uh, epistemic curiosity, okay, scientists maybe do more of that than others, uh, or- or researchers of any types, uh, because they really try to answer, you know, these how and why questions perhaps more broadly than others. But others also have times when, you know, they try to research something. Um, uh, perceptual curiosity, everybody felt. I mean, everybody was sometimes surprised by something. They thought they know something, and they turned out to be something else, and so- so there is no question, uh, that- that you do that. And diversive curiosity, you know, this thing you do not to be bored, I mean, at this point, I mentioned young people before, but in fact, we're all like that now. I mean, you know, you enter any coffee shop and, uh, half the people, if not more, are on their cell phones checking for things. So, uh, yeah, so- so everybody experiences all these four types, but some maybe experience more of one type than others.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I get that. I understand. Is there a role that each of these types of curiosity play within people's lives? Did you find anyone who was incredibly proficient in one area?
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Um, well, like I said, I mean, some people are- are more epistemically curious than others. I mean, in particular, you know, great scientists who devote their entire life, uh, to research a particular topic, uh, they are very epistemically curious, uh, in that respect. So- so that, of course, does define some types of people. Um, I, um, you know, I devote in the book two chapters to two of the people that I regard as being, you know, perhaps the most curious people, uh, in history. Uh, one is Leonardo da Vinci, and the other is physicist Richard Feynman. And, uh, you know, for example, in the case of Leonardo, which is better known perhaps, uh, he was curious just about everything.... you, you know, he was interested in every, uh, natural phenomena, in, of course, in the arts, in, uh, you know, one day he could, uh, investigate why the sky is blue and on another, uh, what is the length of the tongue of the woodpecker.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- MLDr. Mario Livio
On, yeah, on another day, you know, uh, uh, he was interested, uh, in perspective, in painting, or in light and shadow. So really, literally every day almost, he was researching something. Um, so there aren't too many people like that, quite like that. Um, there was only one topic, by the way, which he wasn't interested, and that was politics. Uh, and then-
- CWChris Williamson
Is that true?
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Yeah, yeah. And that was very wise on his part because I remind you, he lived at the same time of, of the Borgias, and they basically killed everybody who was interested in politics. Uh, he, on the other hand, managed to get funded by them. So clearly this was very clever on his part.
- CWChris Williamson
You think that that was a conscious choice by da Vinci to avoid getting himself embroiled in a potentially, uh, (laughs) existential threat by, by using his cognitive capacity to actually get stuck into politics?
- MLDr. Mario Livio
I, I'm, I'm sure it played some role in that. I mean, it is also true that, you know, uh, history wasn't too interesting for him, uh, compared to other topics. Uh, but, uh, but yes, politics he, he definitely wasn't. And I believe that a conscious choice, you know, uh, played a part in that.
- CWChris Williamson
So you touched on Richard Feynman as well.
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Yes.
- 15:00 – 30:00
That's absolutely fascinating that…
- MLDr. Mario Livio
physics, and the other week, uh, Zorthian would teach him how to draw. And they did this for about a year or so. Um, so he was, he was even interesting in drawing. He, he was interested in biology. He, he actually spent a whole year studying with people from the biology department about things in, in biology. So he, he was, again, some sort of Leonardo, only with a ... simply with a much stronger emphasis on physics.
- CWChris Williamson
That's absolutely fascinating that ... I, I knew Richard Feynman was a, was a very interesting individual, and I've looked into his ... The Feynman technique, as many of the listeners will know, is one of the, uh, particular approaches that me and some of the other co-hosts are using to try and remember books and remember what we learn, but I didn't realize just how broad and how deep his, uh, his curiosity went.
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Yeah. He, he basically said, he, he li- literally said once, you know, that everything is interesting if you go deeply enough into it.
- CWChris Williamson
That's a very good way to put it. So what do you think drives people to be curious? Is it ... Are we evolutionary, evolutionarily programmed to be like this? Is it more of a, a cognitive, uh, motivation where we realize that what's at the end will be rewarding and worthwhile if we continue to pursue our curiosities?
- MLDr. Mario Livio
So well, first of all, there is no question, right, that, that curiosity developed as, as an evolutionary thing. I mean, people had to be curious in order to survive. I mean, you basically had to know that you cannot just walk off a cliff and supposed to, you know, continue your life undisturbed. So, so people clearly ... Curiosity in, in itself developed as an evolutionary tool. Now, having said that, uh, you know, we know that there are huge differences among different people, uh, in their curiosity, both in terms of the things they are curious about and the, the intensity of their curiosity. So in that, uh, again, there have been many studies done on this, um, in particular studies with identical twins reared apart, um, which were done, uh, because, you know, then you can find all kinds of differences that are not genetic, yes genetic. And, uh, curiosity, like all psychological traits, um, has a strong genetic component, about at the 50% level, w- which means, you know, if your, if your parents were, were very curious, your grandparents were very curious, you're likely to be very curious person too. So, so about 50%, that's that. Uh, but that, of course, leaves the other 50%, and the other 50% is of course determined by everything around you. It determines by which kind of house you grew up in, uh, by your parents, by your siblings, by your, uh, teachers in school, by your, your...... pastor at church, uh, uh, i- in what country you, you were born, at what time, and so on. So all of those things, of course, determine both, um, the things you are curious about and the level of your curiosity.
- CWChris Williamson
That's really fascinating that it's 50/50, uh-
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Roughly, roughly 50/50, yes.
- CWChris Williamson
So did you discover any approaches which environmentally can encourage the onset of curiosity? Is there a, a curiosity workout program that we can, (laughs) that we can put ourselves through to improve that?
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Yes. So, so, so look, I mean, uh, my book was intentionally not written as a how-to book.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Uh, but, you know, o- of course, I, you know, found all kinds of things while, while researching, and, and there are things that one can do, uh, to, to enhance curiosity. I- in particular, I'm asked this type of question, you know, about what do you do to make your children more curious and things of that nature. Um, so, uh, there are some things you can do. Uh, one is to ask many questions. Uh, the other is to answer questions, but to answer, to answer them in a particular way. I, I, I'll give you an example. Uh, suppose that, uh, you know, you have a five-year-old, uh, girl who asks you, uh, why, uh, I don't know, why birds can fly and we cannot. It's a good question.
- CWChris Williamson
Good question.
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Yes. And, um, so instead of trying i- straight to answer the question, uh, you can do the following. You can say, "Why do you think that birds can fly and we cannot?" And the girl may come up with some idea, you know. For example, she may say, um, "Oh, well, maybe because birds are small and light and we are big and heavy and we cannot fly," right? That's a legitimate answer to this.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MLDr. Mario Livio
So, so then you would say, "Oh, yes. So, so let's see if that's correct. Because if this is the reason, then that would mean that there are no birds that are heavier than us, right?" So you say, "Okay, so let's try to check if there are birds that are heavier than us." And then, you know, you can sit with the girl next to a computer and try to do a search, find out and this. So you see, by having a conversation going this way, you, you can encourage epistemic curiosity, for example. Um, another thing that you can do and actually should do is, is that if you want to, you know, again try to encourage somebody or, you know, enhance their curiosity, is to start with something that they are already curious about instead of starting with something that you think they should be curious about.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Um, I, I, I'll give you, again, a couple of examples. Let's say in the case of children, okay? So, um, suppose you think that, uh, children should know, uh, that, uh, uh, the Earth has gravity, there is such a thing as force of gravity, and gravity make things fall towards Earth and things like that. Now, if you take a five-year-old and try to explain to him or, or her that from what I just said, that may bore them to tears.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- MLDr. Mario Livio
So what you have to do is start with something that you know that this child is already curious about. For example, I, I mean, an example I like to give is that, I don't know if that's true in the UK, but i- in the US, children of five, six, are all somehow fascinated by dinosaurs.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep, exactly the same here.
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Yeah. So, um, so you start with dinosaurs, uh, you know, because they are already curious about this. So you start with dinosaurs, show them various kinds of dinosaurs and this and what they do and they're big and they're small and they've
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- MLDr. Mario Livio
... this and this and that, all that, things that they are really curious about. And then you say, "Ah, and you know, actually all the dinosaurs, they got extinct. Actually even we know why and we even think we know, um, uh, when. Uh, you know, I mean, they got extinct some 66 million years ago, and uh, it came because some large rock and asteroid hit the Earth. We even know where it hit, somewhere in the Yucatan Peninsula in, in Mexico. So... And you know why that rock came to Earth? Because the Earth has this gravity which attracted this, uh, rock, you know, which then accelerated towards Earth and hit it." So you started with something they are curious about, and you reach that point which you wanted them to know. Um, so that's, that's one way. The same applies, by the way, to adults. Um, suppose that you know somebody that, um, is, uh, obsessed with, uh, some celebrity. Uh, I don't know, take, take some celebrity.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Uh, Mag- Magnus Carlsen just won yesterday the wor- again, the world championship in chess, for example.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MLDr. Mario Livio
He's not a huge celebrity, but as far as chess goes, he is a celebrity, because he has been now for a good number of years champion, and he defended his title for the third time. Okay? Okay, but you know that this person that you're talking to...... is not interested in chess at all. He's actually only interested in money. So you start with money. You say, "Do you know how much the world chess champion money, how much money he makes a year?" And you know, this per- he or she probably doesn't know. You say, "Well, it turns out he has made $8 million last year." So that already makes him somewhat curious. Yes? And then you can start explaining, you know, how come he made this because he has become a huge celebrity in Norway. He's Norwegian. Uh, you know, every kid knows him. Uh, yesterday when he played, uh, you know, Norway has only like, what, something like five million people or so. About a million of them were watching the, the, the game, you know, and things like this. So you, you, you start with the money and get into the chess and the other things.
- CWChris Williamson
So you begin with something that has an existing curiosity and then latch other curiosities onto it.
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
Fascin- that's fascinating. So during the research for the book-
- 30:00 – 45:00
Uh, y- I don't…
- CWChris Williamson
some of the listeners may know, and you may as well, who come to mind, uh, Bret Weinstein, brother of Eric Weinstein.
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Uh, y- I don't know him personally, no, but he is a
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
So Bret, Bret is a- an evolutionary biologist, and Eric, who's his brother, is the-... managing director of Thiel Capital.
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
And on his most recent podcast that he did with Joe Rogan, he went from about as deep knowledge in cephalopods and octopuses as I could have imagined to playing the harmonica, to talking about Native American, uh, Native American music, how the, uh, the ukulele had moved around different areas of the world. It was such a diverse range of interests that he'd obviously taken to the absolute end. Uh, uh, you know, he knew as much about them in a field as anyone who was an expert would do. And I think that kind of polymath approach, it- it's just so interesting to people nowadays. And it must- there must be a- a complementary mechanism whereby people who are specialists in one field open up pathways to become- to have greater understanding in others. You know, l- yourself as a perfect example, having doubled down in physics and astrophysics for so long permitted you to... I'm not gonna put words in your mouth, I doubt that the book (laughs) was easy to write by any means, but I'm sure that there were a number of skills and curiosities which had aided you from your past in writing this book in the future.
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Th- that is correct. I- I- in particular, I mean, you know, research methods and things like this and- and the love of research. In fact, in all my books, the part that I enjoy the most, actually, in- in- in writing books is actually the research part, when I do all the research work. Because I am sort of by nature a- a researcher, and that's the part that I really enjoy. I enjoy that more than the act of writing itself. You know, I- I enjoy studying about all these things. And this is also why, by the way, uh, my first book was, uh, straight on astrophysics, but all the following five books were all not, uh, precisely on my, um, you know, day-to-day work. Because, uh, I- I decided to work on things that were, uh, somewhat different from my everyday work because that allowed me to do more research on them. Because if you'd been doing things on your day-to-day work, you would have known everything already. Yeah. It- My- The first book, you know, all I had to do basically is- is take my- my daily work and try to put it, you know, in- in a language that it would be understandable for a lay person. Uh, but I didn't have to do a lot of research for that. Uh, but in all the coming, the following five books, I had to do quite a bit of research on each one of those books and, of course, more than most actually on this last book, Why: What Makes Us Curious, because this was really outside my field.
- CWChris Williamson
So, you afforded yourself the luxury of being able to research into new fields. I can draw a little bit of an analogy there between your profession and mine. So, I've been a- I've run nightclubs for 12 years and often when I have a night off, my friends will message me and say, "Oh, you're off tonight, man. Like, do you fancy coming out with us and going on a night out?" And I'm like, "No, that's not what I want to do. That just feels like me going back to work."
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Yes. I understand.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, so during the writing of the book, were there any real surprises or anything that you didn't expect to discover which you- which you came across?
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Yeah. There- there were quite a few surprises. I- I mean, first of all, I wasn't aware, uh, of these different types of curiosities that I mentioned. Um, you know, I thought of curiosity as one thing. Uh, but what I discovered in particular was that there is a big difference between perceptual curiosity, that's the curiosity when we're surprised or something, you know, doesn't agree with what we think we know, and epistemic curiosity, that's the- what drives research. Um, first of all, in terms of the psychological state in which they put us, uh, perceptual curiosity, the thing that surprises us, puts us at a state of, uh, unpleasantness, in an aversive state. Uh, and the curiosity is the mechanism that tries to get us out of the unpleasant state.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MLDr. Mario Livio
That's the way that one works. On the other hand, epistemic curiosity, uh, actually puts us in a state that is pleasant. It's a state of an anticipation of reward. You know, like when you- you are expecting somebody to give you a piece of chocolate, or when you, you know, see a movie you wanted to see for a long- for a long time before that. So, they are very different in terms of the psychological state. But since we now can also do research in neuroscience, and scientists have done that, meaning they take people, they, uh, stick them into functional MRI machines, and, uh, they make them curious in a certain way and they see which areas of their brain are being activated. And what they discovered was, believe it or not, that in the case of perceptual curiosity, the area of the brain that is being activated is indeed an area that's as- is associated with conflict and with unpleasant feelings. While in the case of epistemic curiosity, the area that is activated is the area that's, uh, associated with anticipation of reward. So, these two types of curiosity are really different, both in terms of the psychological state in which they put us and in terms of the area of the brain that is being activated. So, I- I would almost go so far as say that had we known this from the start-We might have even not used the same word, curiosity, for both types of this curiosity, because they are really different things.
- CWChris Williamson
They're so different.
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Yeah. We might have called one interest and the other, I don't know, anxiety or something.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, totally.
- MLDr. Mario Livio
So, um, so- so this was one thing that- that I didn't know before, and therefore it surprised me. Uh, I must say, I was also a little bit surprised ... You see, to me, curiosity was a very big thing. I mean, like I said, because I was always so curious. So I- I- I always thought and still think that, you know, this drives almost everything we do. I mean, you know, you don't read a book unless you're curious about this, you don't see a film unless you're curious about this, you don't listen to this podcast un- unless you are a little bit curious about this, and you don't even engage in a simple conversation if you are not a little bit curious about the topic th- of the conversation, right? So, and of course, curiosity drives education, it drives all the basic research, it drives, you know, some of the greatest works of art and all that. So to me, this was a huge thing. And I, yet I was surprised that among psychologists and neuroscientists, for example, relatively a small number of people devote really all their work to the study of curiosity. Um, uh, I- I guess, you know, maybe I, had I known more, I should have expected this, because the thing is that people, for example, who do neuroscience, the field is so vast, uh, you know, and, you know, for example, there is a huge number of them who study how can you help in the case of Alzheimer's disease, you know, things like that. Um, and- and- and so that the number of people who actually regard curiosity as their main focus i- is relatively not a huge number of people. So- so that was another surprise for me.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a subsection of a subsection within a discipline, isn't it, I suppose?
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Right. That's right.
- CWChris Williamson
So one thing that I've found quite interesting was the- the point on the- the fear that certain types of curiosity give us. And I can think to 50,000 years ago, 100,000 years ago, hunter-gatherer tribes out on the plains, and too much curiosity or seeing something that's new, really the only successful way to interpret that would be a potential threat. Because if you didn't interpret a- a new or different looking bush, or a new or different looking animal as a potential, uh, something to be anxious or fearful about, the chance of you walking over to it and being killed means you're dead. So if- if nature is able to discriminate us away from that kind of curiosity piquing our interests to- to go and look at more, we actually have a better chance of surviving, because if you run away from the animal and it wasn't dangerous, then you don't really lose anything. But if you go towards the animal and it is dangerous, then you're dead.
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Right. So you- you touched upon the right thing, but you- you didn't say at the end the most important thing, which was that it was through curiosity that you o- actually can overcome the fear, uh, you see, because by learning more about that, you are much less fearful of it. So yes, you see something new, this puts you into this surprised mode or, you know, this unpleasant mode. But then, if you're curious about it, you discover more about this, and that's how you overcome the fear. So I actually coined this phrase in the book, curiosity is the best remedy for fear, which I- I'm kind of proud of, even though I discovered I wasn't the first who formulated something along these lines. Um, so the idea is that we- we are really very often things we are afraid of are things we don't know enough about or know very little about. I mean, this- this cause- caused all kinds of, you know, racial things and- and social things, you know, and so when there's a group of people that are different from you and- and in some ways, and- and these people, as long as you don't know anything about them, you might be fearful about them. Um, if somebody just, you know, I mean, currently there is worldwide a big immigration problem, right? Um, if somebody would come and tell you, "Oh, well, all immigrants are terrorists," then, you know, this, you are very fearful. But once you become a little bit more curious about this, and then, and you discover that, uh, this, uh, 70-year-old woman who is, uh, crossing borders with his three-year-old grandson, um, be- to- to, you know, to, because she wants to somehow run away from all kinds of atrocities, she's really not a threat to you and she's not a terrorist, neither is her grandson. Um, so, uh, by- by putting your curiosity to work, by understanding more, by learning more about things, you are much less afraid of them.
- CWChris Williamson
Curiosity, oddly, is kind of cause and effect in this situation then to one degree.
- MLDr. Mario Livio
That's right. That's right.
- CWChris Williamson
So what else, were there any other surprising- surprising, uh, revelations that you came across as you went through the- the research for the book?
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Well, you know, there are surprises that are associated with particular people. You know, when I looked for this- this extraordinarily, um, curious people, I mean, you know, you mentioned, uh, some people that do a number of things. Uh, another person, for example, that-... that I interviewed, uh, is Fabiola Gianotti, who is the director general of CERN, that's the European Center for Nuclear Research. Uh, she actually led, uh, the group of, uh, thousands of scientists who discovered the, this subatomic particle, the Higgs boson, a few years ago. But believe it or not, um, the first degree she did in university was in music. Um, and she is an accomplished pianist to this very day. Um, so, uh, you know, she, she really loves music. She still plays, um, listens all the time to music. She is also an avid cook. She loves to cook. And she sees similarities between physics and, uh, and cooking-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- MLDr. Mario Livio
... because there are certain rules, but there is also creativity. (laughs) So, I mean, so, you know, so you discover all these things about people, uh, you, you didn't know. Um, I, I interviewed, uh, this woman, Marilyn vos Savant. Um, she's a person that actually did not finish even her undergraduate degree. She went for a couple of years to university, uh, but then stopped. But she is the woman with the highest ever recorded IQ.
- CWChris Williamson
Really?
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Yes. Yeah. In fact, the IQ tests don't really even work when you get to those numbers. (laughs) But, uh-
- CWChris Williamson
How high, how high was it?
- 45:00 – 51:10
Well, uh, yes. You…
- CWChris Williamson
like yourself, does it feel a little bit like sort of standing at the feet of g- of giants?
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Well, uh, yes. You know, we all stand, of course, on the shoulders of giant. This is famous, uh, Isaac Newton quote. Um, uh, you know, he said, you know, if I, if I've seen farther than others, it's because I've stood on the, on the shoulders of giant. Uh, some people claim that this was, uh, a little bit of, uh, an ironic remark made to Hooke, whom he wasn't in particularly good relation with. Um, but, uh, interestingly, uh, let me just mention this, uh, as a, as a side remark. Um, Brian May, whom I did interview, is the person, living person who looks the most like Isaac Newton. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- MLDr. Mario Livio
... yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Just visually?
- MLDr. Mario Livio
If you've ever seen, yeah, a picture of Newton, yes, uh, both the hair and the nose and thing, he really looks like Isaac Newton. Um, the thing, so-
- CWChris Williamson
Do you think that was a, do you think that was a conscious choice?
- MLDr. Mario Livio
(laughs) No, I, I'm sure he- his hair had much more to do with him being a famous rock guitarist than, uh, (laughs) with, with Newton. But I don't-
- CWChris Williamson
So Isaac, Isaac Newton potentially could have taken up a different career if he'd wanted to.
- MLDr. Mario Livio
I kind of doubt it because Isaac Newton was, was, uh, he, he was, you know, one of the greatest, if not the greatest genius to have ever lived. But, um, he was not exactly an easy person and, and not, um... I don't think he was a, a person who, um, sort of enjoyed life, you know.
- CWChris Williamson
He had some very, he had some very bad traits, didn't he? Didn't he enjoy going to see hangings and executions and stuff? Wasn't that one of his favorite pastimes?
- MLDr. Mario Livio
I'm not sure that he did that, to be honest. But, but, but he, he did, he did engage in a variety of, uh, debates and, and battles with various, uh, scientific adversaries, uh, so on.
- CWChris Williamson
If you were to pick a, a curiosity hero throughout time, have you got one that, that you admire the most or that's your favorite?
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Well, Leonardo beats everybody hands down. Uh, Leonardo da Vinci beats everybody hands down. I mean, there has not been something like this, uh, neither before nor after. Uh, I don't think that, uh, I don't think anybody comes even close.
- CWChris Williamson
That's a big accolade.
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Uh, yes. Yeah, but, you know, he deserves it. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
He definitely does. So, one thing I wanted to touch on before we finished was the, the book cover of Why. I thought it was very interesting. Where did you get, where did you get that designed?
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Um, well, you know, uh, usually before my book appears, uh, the publisher, um, which is Simon & Schuster in this case, sends me a few, um, uh... Well, well, I take that back. They don't immediately send me a few. They send me one suggestion for the cover.Um, I don't know why, but almost invariably until now, and this is my sixth book, uh, I always didn't like the, the first cover that I've seen. A- and then I say, "No, I don't like that. I would like something different." And then they send me something different, and this was it, you know, with a huge question mark in color, uh...... on a white background, and, uh, the question mark, of course, comes under the word why. So I thought that's very fitting. I mean, you know, why is the, what, what really is the sort of essence of curiosity.
- CWChris Williamson
I get that. Well, Mario, thank you very much for your m- for your time. Uh, I, I think the topic of curiosity definitely appears to be one that's a lot more vast than I would have thought. Definitely, I agree with you that finding out that there's different types, after you realize that, it's one of those things that's an aha moment. But of course, the same kind of curiosity that makes you wonder, wonder about, uh, a new, uh, landscape in front of you or a new animal that you've just seen is not the same one that makes you want to go and see that film in the future. It's, uh, they serve different purposes, and they work on different mechanisms. Um, so it, it's odd that something which I wouldn't have guessed in advance makes so much logical sense afterwards, if that makes, uh, if, if that holds true.
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Yeah, I, I understand. And by the way, I, I mentioned it, there are other types of curiosity as well, for example, morbid curiosity. You know, the fact that you, you get all this rubber-necking every time there is an accident on the highway, right? I mean, even people on the other side of the road, they slow down...
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- MLDr. Mario Livio
... to look at what happened, right? So yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, that's totally correct. Well, would you be able to tell the listeners at home where they can find you online?
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Um, well, I do have a web page. Uh, it's Mario, my first name, dash, uh, Livio.com. Uh, there is also a Wikipedia page about me. I do have a Facebook page, and I am on Twitter as well, which is, uh, Mario_Livio is my handle.
- CWChris Williamson
Fantastic. Well, I will make sure that all of the links to your website and your socials are in the show notes below. So if anyone wants to get the book, Why?: What Makes Us Curious, or any of your other work, Golden Ratio, uh, or, uh, the, the entire (laughs) back catalog, which I feel like we could've gone on all night to go through, but I, I really appreciate your time. Thank you very much for coming on.
- MLDr. Mario Livio
Thank you for having me.
Episode duration: 51:10
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