What The Right Is Getting Wrong - Darren Grimes | Modern Wisdom Podcast 361

1. 0:00 – 0:35

   Intro

   1. DGDarren Grimes0:00

      Were I to do a protest right now, I'd stand up with a sign saying, "Steady. Steady on. Steady as she goes. Should we really be doing this? Think again?"

   2. CWChris Williamson0:10

      Very exciting.

   3. DGDarren Grimes0:11

      Very exciting.

   4. CWChris Williamson0:12

      Riveting, riveting.

   5. DGDarren Grimes0:13

      There's hardly anyone on the street that's gonna be like beeping their horn at me, is there? And saying (laughs) , "Well, maybe to get out the way." But not to actually say, "I wanna join this person's movement." And that's a problem conservativism has. (whoosh)

   6. CWChris Williamson0:26

      Darran Grimes, welcome to the show.

   7. DGDarren Grimes0:28

      Thank you very much for having us. I'm dead excited about this one, I must say.

   8. CWChris Williamson0:31

      Two northern boys today.

   9. DGDarren Grimes0:33

      Exactly.

   10. CWChris Williamson0:34

       The way it works.

2. 0:35 – 11:43

   Darren’s Role in Brexit

   1. CWChris Williamson0:35

      #BrexitReality is trending at the moment and people are upset. Is this, is this your fault? Have you done something here?

   2. DGDarren Grimes0:41

      Do you know what? I don't think it is my fault this time. I can't say I've spent that much time on Twitter today, but I don't think it's me. There, there's always some form of Brexit reality, right? Despite the fact there's a global pandemic sort of wreaking havoc across the globe as we speak, and, uh, supply chains are being through, it's fair to say, a little bit of rough and tumble, that Brexit gets the blame. It's just the way things work on Twitter. It's a cesspit of FB, PE, remain sort of circle-jerkery, I'm afraid, Chris. That's the be all and end all of that.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:12

      It feels like you're still kind of one of the big public enemies-

   4. DGDarren Grimes1:16

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:16

      ... around the Brexit debacle. I still had my head up my ass when Brexit was happening. I was actually flying back from some foreign country while the vote was going on. I was watching it live 'cause there was nothing else at 4:00 in the morning th- the timezone that I was in. What was your role in this? Why do people have sort of distaste, or some, some circles of Twitter have distaste for you when Brexit comes up?

   6. DGDarren Grimes1:37

      So I, um, set up a campaign from my bedroom in Brighton. I was at Brighton University at the time, and that was 2015, December of 2015. And I set up a campaign called Believe. And it was a liberal-minded Brexit arguments that was there to cater to a younger audience, which I thought was being sort of a little bit left out of the debate and the argument. I thought there were actually legitimate arguments to make from a classical liberal perspective that simply weren't being made by the, the Vote Leave campaign. So anyway, I set this up, and I had just recently left the Liberal Democrats after that 'cause I thought I, I cannot get away from the fact that this party is unapologetically pro-EU, and I couldn't understand why, frankly. I, I just, I think there are legitimate liberal arguments for leaving the EU. I certainly think in many ways the EU, uh, on the world stage has been pretty damn protectionist and not very internationalist in its outlook. You know, the whole idea of, uh, I remember one advert in particular where they had a, there was a man dressed up in, in Asian garb, uh, uh, and there's this woman who's fending them off, and a sort of man who looks like he's in sort of, I don't know, Saudi ar- aristocrat dress fighting off this EU superwoman. And that was an advert calling, it's basically to try and parrot this idea of the EU as the protector for, of the EU, from, of EU countries, of the EU 28 at the time, from the rest of the world. And I thought, "Hang on a minute. How the hell is that compatible with any of the arguments that, you know, the Lib Dems parrot every two minutes about being inclusive and all the rest of it? If anything, that's exclusive." So I thought about this and I thought, "Well, this is entirely incompatible with everything that I've heard so far." I thought I was a liberal at the time. Uh, I, I'm not, um, but I didn't know that. I was quite sort of in, in my infancy of my political journey at the time, I would say. Um, and anyway, I set up this campaign, and I think it was pretty quick, actually, the, the venom and vitriol. I remember the day after the vote, I'd had precious little sleep. I had been campaigning for the d- official campaign for the last two days, out and about, you know, handing out leaflets and knocking on doors and all the rest of it to try and get out the vote. And I went into the Channel 4 studio the day after, and, uh, I was met by Sarah Morrison, who used to be... She was under Ted Heath, former leader of the Conservative Party, former Prime Minister of this country. She was his vice chairman of the Conservative Party. And I met her and I thought, "This is very exciting, you know, meeting such a, a, a d- a grand character within the Conservative history." And, uh, she was utterly vile. I'm afraid there's no other way of, of putting it. She said, they basically a- across that panel said I am thick, uneducated, I don't know, I didn't know what I was voting for, I, um, clearly have, I guess, betrayed my generation, and that my arguments weren't worth hearing. And that, I think, I'm afraid to say, has been what the last, what, five years now have all been about, which is this sort of contempt for those of us who are conservative-minded, who quite like our country, who quite like our monarch, who quite like our flag, who quite like the fact that we should make decisions in this country and that we, we champion that around the world, that sort of message of being the Mother of Parliaments, that democracy. And yet, all of these things I think just sort of... You're, you're derided as being a complete Neanderthal, you know, an idiot that doesn't know what's good for them. "Let us decide for you. That's what you've been doing all along. That's what you've been voting for. You did that with Blair, you did that with Cameron. You've been doing that for years and years. How dare you think you know what's good for you and your community."

   7. CWChris Williamson6:01

      What specifically-

   8. DGDarren Grimes6:02

      And-

   9. CWChris Williamson6:02

      ... is it about you that you think triggered that talking point? Because, you know, more than 50% of the country voted to leave, so there's a lot of other people that could've been on the end of that particular shtick.

   10. DGDarren Grimes6:15

       Yeah. So there's 17.4 million people voted Leave and 14 million in the last general election voted Tory. And you wouldn't know that, would you, by the narrative and much of the, what you hear from the media class. But I think the contempt for me, I think that, that, I'd go as far to call it hatred, that there's a lot of people out there that I think it's s- safe to say do not like me. You only have to scroll through one of me tweets and look at the mentions to get a, get a flavor of that. God help you, Chris, when you post this interview. But, th- I think it comes down to this. I tick a fair few identity boxes. I'm gay, I'm working class, I'm from the Northeast, and all of these things... I did an arts degree, admittedly I dropped out of it, but I did. All of these things suggest that I should be a man of the left, I should belong to the left, I should recognize that the Tories aren't for someone like me, or, or conservatism, or Brexit. They're not for people like me. You know, progressives own people like me, whatever that means. You know, there's this assumption that we're one homogenous mass, all gay people, all transpeople, all women, all, uh, you name it, this rainbow coalition, we all think exactly the same way, when that's obviously complete and utter farce. It's a complete and ut nonsense. So I think the hatred comes from that. It's the fact that I've never known me own place, it's the fact that I've dared have a- an opinion, and I've dared go against the grain in that as well. You know, grandson of a miner as well. How dare I not recognize what Mrs. Thatcher did to County Durham, you know, that I've heard that before. So there are many threads to it. I think it's... Ultimately though, there's an element of snobbery to it. Th- Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson8:09

       It does feel like a heterodox position now to be a young person, like, under, what, 40?

   12. DGDarren Grimes8:16

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson8:17

       And lean right.

   14. DGDarren Grimes8:19

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson8:19

       And I only found out not long ago that 20% of the UK population is on Twitter. That's it.

   16. DGDarren Grimes8:26

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson8:26

       So even, as you say, when there seems to be these pylons and it's like everyone on Twitter hates this person, or everyone on Twitter believes this thing, you realize that that, at most, even if 100% of people on Twitter were doing it, would be one in five of the entire UK population.

   18. DGDarren Grimes8:42

       Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. I mean-

   19. CWChris Williamson8:44

       But it does feel, it does feel like a, a heterodox position to be-

   20. DGDarren Grimes8:47

       It does.

   21. CWChris Williamson8:47

       ... to be young and, and right-leaning.

   22. DGDarren Grimes8:49

       Absolutely. And, and, and that's been a phenomenon that's been going on for a little while now, but I think Brexit has sort of, uh, sped that up (laughs) by a factor of 10. Look, I think all not lo- isn't lost with conservatism though, and, and I'm not as pessimistic as most people. I think conservatism has this sort of philosophy of love as the late and great Roger Scruton once decided, uh, called it. I think ultimately what's gonna happen is the left are getting so extreme, right? The left are pushing things as far as they possibly can, where the public are going, "Oh, hang on a minute, mate, what's going on here?" And I think young people eventually will, will have a similar sort of view, will come t- 'round and say, "Actually, I, I really don't like what yous are... I think yous are being incredibly divisive. And actually, I, I'm tired of this." And th- we're at each other's throats like you wouldn't believe at the moment, and it's a really, really nasty environment. Um, so I... Yeah, you're right, but there are so many young people who get in touch with me and say, "I'd love to have Conservatives come and speak at my university, but every time I try to do that, it's like clockwork." The invitation will be issued, students that don't like this particular speaker, it could be a democratically elected member of Parliament, a Conservative MP, they'll find out about this, they'll kick up a fuss, and the invitation will have to be canceled because of the fact that the venue has been lost. So you cannot even hear, and I s- I repeat, 14 million people voted Tory in 2019, you cannot hear from a democratically elected representative of the people in a university our supposedly august universities. So to me it's like, well, it's no wonder that people aren't hearing conservative viewpoints in universities and young people, uh, the young people that aren't going to uni, you know, they're out there working hard, they're out there doing their jobs, they're out there making a living, um, so I, I can't... I, it's no surprise to me. I- I'm a freak in that sense, right, being hyper, um, plugged in to political debate and all the rest of it. I recognize that I am, I'm not normal, but I think we'll get there eventually, because the left are really, really stirring the pot at the minute, and I think that's gonna have some really nasty repercussions, in the sense of people will just say, "I've had enough with this. I'm up to here with this." Because we're not electing these people, yet they still keep winning power, they're still winning the cultural arguments, they're still everywhere in pop culture, they're still everywhere in political culture, they're still everywhere in media culture, and I think people are crying out for diversity of thought. And, um, that's the only form of diversity that I'm afraid to say isn't acceptable

3. 11:43 – 20:05

   Why Conservatism isn’t Attractive

   1. DGDarren Grimes11:43

      in this day and age.

   2. CWChris Williamson11:44

      I think that you're right, that, uh, there's an interesting paradox going on here, that as in the UK specifically, the support for the left politically, in terms of how we're getting on in elections, appears to be declining, and yet if you were to look at what's published in the media, it doesn't seem that way at all. But I'm less hopeful, I, I, I'm not sure that I agree about young people being...... that it, it may be having five or 10 years and then them being a- being able to turn around-

   3. DGDarren Grimes12:11

      Hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson12:11

      ... and see that this is actually more divisive than it is supporting because the signal that a lot of the left-leaning articles are putting off at the moment is that if you are for the left, you are for compassion. It's acceptance, it's tolerance, it's a lot of buzzwords that just sound very easy to consume. And man, I think up until I was 27, 28, and then probably still now, I'm brosciencing my way through all of this, but I think that those sort of words just triggering you in a-

   5. DGDarren Grimes12:43

      Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson12:43

      ... much less emotionally mature brain. "Oh, well I want that. Stormzy, Stormzy supports fucking whatever, he supports-"

   7. DGDarren Grimes12:51

      Mm-hmm.

   8. CWChris Williamson12:51

      "... Keir Starmer. Like-"

   9. DGDarren Grimes12:52

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CWChris Williamson12:52

       "... that, that must be the right thing. Amber, Amber from Love Island, she supports Keir Starmer, because I'm going to take my political advice from someone that went on reality TV."

   11. DGDarren Grimes13:00

       (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson13:00

       Oi, oi! Um, so... (laughs) Yeah, I am... I don't know, man. I, I... It'll be interesting to wait and see, but I certainly think that one of the reasons that the talking points are effective with people that are young is because you want to do the thing that seems like it's good. Your ability to be skeptical hasn't fully developed yet. And I say that as someone that has to work very hard at being skeptical, not very conspiratorially minded, really struggle at f- at sort of poking holes and being disagreeable with people's arguments. 'Cause I presume that most people are telling the truth.

   13. DGDarren Grimes13:30

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson13:30

       And when you've just stepped out into adulthood, your parents have looked after you for 18 years, you're finally released into the big wide world to either have a job or go to university, and you think, "Well, Mom and Dad looked after me."

   15. DGDarren Grimes13:41

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson13:41

       M- most parents. "They looked after me, they told me the truth, therefore probably most other adults not only tell the truth, but also know what they're doing." And it takes a lot of time for you to realize, "Hang on. The competence that I gave to my parents and presumed that they had actually doesn't exist with everyone else in the adult world."

   17. DGDarren Grimes13:58

       Mm-hmm. I th- I think you're right, I think to a certain extent at least, because... And that there is... I've... That's a tale as old as time. Conservatism has always had this problem, as I described it earlier. Conservatism is the philosophy of love. It is this idea that I actually quite like what we've done here. I want to protect it. I want to nurture it.

   18. CWChris Williamson14:18

       But what if, what if what we've done here is something that's disempowering to a particular group? Or what if what we've done here is a mistake?

   19. DGDarren Grimes14:24

       Well then, uh, I... So I would say Section 28 was a mistake. Right?

   20. CWChris Williamson14:28

       What was that? What's that?

   21. DGDarren Grimes14:28

       But it was a Conservative... Uh, uh, David Cameron apologized for that in the f- obviously the... little while later, but certainly in, in my political lifetime. And, uh, there is a recognition that that's a mistake. There is a recognition of, "Well, actually, maybe we shouldn't have done that." But that's all ab- that's what politics is all about, right? I think there are certain things that... within the Conservative tradition that I wouldn't have been supportive of, and some that I am. The- for example, I think on environmentalism. I think in communities like this one, we are sacrificing, or about to sacrifice so many working class jobs on the altar of the green. I've just seen a report today on hydrogen saying that actually it's more d- it four... It was something that it... a staggering number, a percentage point, more dangerous, by one measure, than gas boilers. And you just think, "Have we thought any of this through?" That there's just this narrative that some technology is coming, galloping down the hill, that's just gonna save w- and all of a sudden we're gonna be able to have energy aplenty. And you're like, "What is this? What are we doing? Why are we setting arbitrary targets? Why don't we just say, 'Right, yes, we want to aspire to have cleaner air, we want, uh, to do that for a multitude of reason, but one of them being that actually polluting our air with, with this poisonous stuff and, um, you know, uh, affecting the, the well-being of, of some of the British population probably isn't a net positive thing to do, and therefore we want to do something about that.'" Fine. I, I accept that with my full heart. What I don't accept is telling working class people that you cannot have cheap food, that you cannot have your holidays, that you cannot have your car, that you cannot have your energy bills cheaper. All of these things, right? That you're gonna have to pay to have your gas boiler removed. No, no, no. I say all of that is a nonsense, because we are, what, 1% of global CO2 emissions and the likes of China and Germany are still pumping out coal like you wouldn't believe. So, no, I think it's a complete... It's fantasy and it's, uh, it's virtue signaling frankly. That's what they're trying to do with this. And you mentioned it earlier, I think the problem with the environmentalism within the Conservative Party, within Boris's current Number 10 operation, the- a lot of the thinking is, "Well, this makes us look nice. We are the nice people. We can be the nice people." They're never gonna think you're nice, sweetheart. Wake up, buttercup. Right? They're never gonna think you're nice. Conservative f- and conservatism aren't s- meant to be seen like that. And there's a different... There's a reason for that, right? You can hold up... As an environmentalist you can hold up a banner saying, um, I don't know, "Resist," right? And you think, "Oh, resist? That sounds very exciting. That's quite tantalizing. I'd have a bit of this." Were I to do a protest right now, I'd hand up a si- stand up with a sign saying, "Steady." You know, "Steady on. Steady as she goes. Should we really be doing this? Think again?" Very exciting.

   22. CWChris Williamson17:48

       Very exciting.

   23. DGDarren Grimes17:49

       Riveting, riveting.

   24. CWChris Williamson17:50

       There's hardly anyone on the street that's gonna be, like, beeping their horn at me, is there, and saying... (laughs) Well, maybe to get out the way, but not to actually say, "I want to join this person's movement." And that's the problem conservatism has, because it says, you know, uh, we actually, uh, want to look back through history. We want to actually see what's working and what isn't. We want to actually think about things before we do them. We don't want to say, "Okay, there's a problem here, let's do the most drastic thing possible."

   25. DGDarren Grimes18:15

       ... that's cut out, cut off our sort of energy intensive nose to spite our face as we're doing in, uh, steel manufacturing, cement manufacturing, all of these things. The farce of what we've done in Northumberland, right? We've said we're not going to open a coal mine with about 250 high-skill, high-paid jobs, but we are going to get the coal that we need for those bloody big wind farms, the wind turbine things, and for the, the cement and steel that we need for Boris Johnson's Levelling Up agenda from the likes of Russia, the Russian bae, from the likes of Australia, far-flung countries. I love Australia, don't get us wrong, but the idea that we should be importing things from Russia, do you really think they're doing things cleaner than we could do it in this country with open-cast coal mining, with safe practices? You know, it's gone are the days of me grandad going deep down a pit and not being able to fully extend his arm because of h- he's been down there so long. And, uh, y- just all of these things, the inconsistencies, and it's all, as I say, just a virtue signal, and it's going to hurt people. It's really going to hurt. And I think what-

   26. CWChris Williamson19:22

       So, I, I... (clears throat)

   27. DGDarren Grimes19:22

       ... th- th- there's a really important point, Chris, really quickly. I think that what we saw in Australia in their last general election, where the Labour Party was supposed to romp home, right? There was a, they were... Every poll put them ahead. And it, they turned around and said, "In places, up in t- the mining communities in Australia, there will be job losses, right, because of our climate change targets." And the people in mining communities in Australia said, "Well, actually, I'd quite like to keep my job, thanks. I'd quite like to keep pride over what I do, pride in my life, pride in my community." And they lost the election. I think that's going to happen. It could happen here in this country. I really, really do.

4. 20:05 – 32:23

   Laurel Hubbard & Gender Identity

   1. DGDarren Grimes20:05

   2. CWChris Williamson20:05

      So, I agree that, uh, tradition isn't sexy.

   3. DGDarren Grimes20:08

      It's not sexy. (laughs)

   4. CWChris Williamson20:08

      It's very hard, it's very hard to glam up shit that's been around for 300, 500 or 1,000 years. This quote from Donald Kingsbury that I love, and he says, "Tradition is a set of solutions for which we have forgotten the problems. Take the solution away, and the problem often comes back worse than it ever was before." And, uh, I, I agree, man. As I've got older, I think that reinventing the wheel and trying to go for total upending change is just, uh, we don't do it in any other form. Elon Musk hasn't decided to try and create a rocket that can immediately go to Mars. He's incrementally made improvements to a, to an existing model that he's made.

   5. DGDarren Grimes20:44

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson20:44

      Okay, we'll try this. We'll try this. And he's the most revolutionary guy when it t- when it comes to this technology.

   7. DGDarren Grimes20:49

      Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson20:49

      So, I think, yeah, uh, you're always going to be on the back foot when it comes to advertising because there's just not as much sort of pizzazz going on when it comes to conservatism. Um, and inevitably, as well, that's good, you know, for a TikTok generation that likes Instagram and stuff like that. And you've sort of got this bumbling fool, Boris, and he's like all uncool, and his umbrella is going inside out, and he feels like sort of old England. I see, especially if you're a working-class young person, I see why that's not tremendously seductive. On the other hand, you've got Dave, the rapper. He'll tweet something.

   9. DGDarren Grimes21:23

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CWChris Williamson21:23

       You think, "Yeah, Dave," like, "Dave says it, so I'll, I'll do what Dave says." So yeah-

   11. DGDarren Grimes21:26

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CWChris Williamson21:27

       ... I, I do get that, but it'll be, it'll be interesting, man. I think the UK, the UK is a, uh, an interesting case study because we're so, um, converse, at least in terms of what the polls have showed, to what happened in America. If America had had the same Trump whitewash that we'd seen, an equivalent-sized landslide to the right, um, I think that there would have been a really good case to make that, look, all of this sort of identity woke-y stuff, it's just, it's not resonating at all with the electorate. But the fly in the ointment, the massive Biden-sized fly in the ointment, is the fact that that didn't happen.

   13. DGDarren Grimes22:01

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson22:03

       And that, I think, has lent four more years of credence to more critical race theory, more divisiveness, so on and so forth, stuff like that. And, um, yeah, man, you see it play out in everything now. I mean, did you see... Here's another thing I, I noticed recently. You see this video of the weightlifter, Sarah Robles, being asked about Laurel Hubbard competing?

   15. DGDarren Grimes22:23

       Yeah. Mm-hmm.

   16. CWChris Williamson22:23

       So, she got asked, um, "What do you think?" It's this symbolic day where progression and the first trans athlete is now competing on the stage with you, and there's three female weightlifters in the 87 kilo category that I think must be the same category or maybe one down. British girl, uh, there's Sarah Robles and another girl, and there's a nine-second silence. And then she just leans forward and presses the button and goes, "No, thank you."

   17. DGDarren Grimes22:51

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson22:51

       And then stops.

   19. DGDarren Grimes22:52

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson22:52

       What are your thoughts on that?

   21. DGDarren Grimes22:53

       Well, apparently, she had be- she had, they had actually asked and said, "Don't ask us any questions about that particular topic." So, it could have been, to be fair to them, it could have been a, you know, next question. I- I'm not... But it did look amazing when I first watched it and didn't know any of the, the background behind it. I thought, "You know, good for yous, because it's not fair. Good for yous." And this is a topic that actually I've fallen out with, um, a fair few of my Conservative Party friends in the LGBT Tory, or whatever it's called now. I'm not sure it is called that anymore. What's LGBT... la-la-la-la-la-la-la. I don't even know what that alphabet soup actually represents anymore. But anyway, putting that to one side, I've fallen out with a fair few people over this very topic. And it's quite sad, really, because I've never really understand- understood why people aren't willing to hear you out, because I actually think that my view on this, once you scratch below the surface, is actually quite nuanced. And it comes from, after watching, believe it or not, after watching a, a BBC whistleblower report. It was BBC Newsnight, and they had this most fantastic expose of the NHS Tavistock Clinic, which is the... NHS is the un- E- England's only gender identity clinic, basically, for, for kids. Um, and there were kids...... that were evidenced in this, in whistleblower reports from people who had resigned from this clinic, which is now, by the way, in, in special measures. It's under investigation. And they had heard from kids getting younger and younger, and each time, the case for medical intervention supposedly getting stronger and stronger. And these kids were saying things like, "Well, you know, I just don't like my body." "Well..." Some parents started coming out and saying that, "I would prefer a trans outcome over a gay outcome." And you hear some of these stories, and I actually felt really upset. I actually felt... The people who are calling me, you know, transphobic online and things like that, I don't think that's right. I think for some of these kids, you, you don't need medical intervention. You need a hug, sweetheart. You know, you need, you need some, you need s- to actually be able to sit down with someone and have some therapy and h- and discuss these things. And if, in the future, you know, when you're old enough, and you can decide to, to have a life-changing, life-altering medical procedure like that, I've got no problem with that whatsoever. You know, if y- if that's gonna make you feel better, feel happier, feel more at home in yourself, then happy days. And that's the same position as someone like J.K. Rowling. She only said... The only thing she said was that she has deep reservations about what's going on as far as self-identification is concerned. So, you know, if you, Chris, decide that you are now Christine, and in the gym tomorrow, you're gonna walk into the girls' changing room and have a good old time in there, then, uh, you know, she said, "I think that's gonna present some problems." And most people at home watching this will be thinking, "Well, aye, I agree." But if they're not, I ask them to look a bit deeper at what she was saying. 'Cause in this essay that she published on her website that caused much hysteria, she actually was saying, "I was a victim of domestic violence in the past. I had to use a women's refuge." It... To me, seg- single-sex spaces must be protected. And I know people, you know, at places like this, there's a lot of alcohol misuse. I've known people go... that have gone through domestic violence, horrible as it is. And you, you just think, "I cannot imagine a more vulnerable position," one for children to be placed in. We've seen over recent days a therapist, uh, uh, uh, who volunteered at ChildLine for the last five years, he... James Esses, he's lost his position as, as a volunteer for... and his degree, his qualification. Uh, uh, from... for the crime of actually saying, "Well, I think, actually, we shouldn't be just affirming that these kids have gender dysphoria. We should actually be saying to them, 'Well, I wanna h- have a few sessions with you. I wanna talk things out and see if there are anything else that's underlying your... the issues that you feel that you're having at the minute.'" And you think, "Well, again, that's sensible." J.K. Rowling saying, "I, I really worry about sex-segregated spaces as someone who had to use them myself, as someone had... who had to use women refuge myself." And you think, "Well, again, that sounds sensible." But these people are derided and canceled. J.K. Rowling hasn't been canceled 'cause she's too rich to be canceled, too successful to be canceled. But someone like James Esses has been for saying, "Actually, I'm too worried about the kids I've seen that are getting younger and younger, but the me- the sort of methodology that's being pushed at them is getting more and more severe each time." Three-

   22. CWChris Williamson28:27

       I definitely think... Um, I, I definitely think that there's a, a difficulty in justifying how someone that legally can't have sex is able to change their sex.

   23. DGDarren Grimes28:36

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson28:37

       That to me seems like... Look, if, if you're not trusting them to put their-

   25. DGDarren Grimes28:39

       Gender.

   26. CWChris Williamson28:40

       Whatever.

   27. DGDarren Grimes28:40

       I must stop you there, sorry. (laughs)

   28. CWChris Williamson28:42

       What, what... Well, I mean, if... Uh, those, those two words used to be interchangeable.

   29. DGDarren Grimes28:45

       Mm-hmm.

   30. CWChris Williamson28:46

       Uh, s- yes, those people who want to change their gender are too young to have sex, but can change that gender. That seems like... Uh, y- you can't give somebody responsibility over one thing that is an immutable change for the remainder of their life, and another thing that is going to happen in any case.
5. 32:23 – 38:57

   The Twitter Battleground

   1. DGDarren Grimes32:23

   2. CWChris Williamson32:23

      Di- did you ever second-thought about the tweet that you sent to Marcus Rashford? Obviously, you're someone who's been the target of some, some pretty mean stuff online, and I imagine that if you'd just failed on a very tall-

   3. DGDarren Grimes32:34

      Yes.

   4. CWChris Williamson32:35

      ... stage and you'd gone online, I... there's almost a 0% chance that Marcus did see that. But I'm sure that it wouldn't have made you feel good if the equivalent had happened to you. Have you reflected on this?

   5. DGDarren Grimes32:44

      Yeah, no, I think, I think you're right. I think that's a fair criticism. I think that, uh, I certainly wouldn't have enjoyed that very much. But, you know, everything that happened with, with Marcus, that sort of little run that he did up to the, the ball, and it was just, like, it's the showmanship, it's the, it's the, the, the... well, of course, the politics, which we're, we're discussing, we can discuss, and, and people saying, "Well, oh, you must be pro-starving children." I mean, Chris, I w- I went to a school on... I had free school meals myself, right? We, we struggled. My mum got divorced when, uh, I was still at school, and, uh, she had to remortgage the house and everything. We, we were going through financial difficulties. Had to turn to a food bank at one point. I'm not someone who isn't supportive of charity and isn't supportive of, uh, looking after kids. I am someone who's critical of, I think, getting abolishing, what is slowly happening, the abolishment of the role of the parent. That really worries me. And, and I think that's increasingly happening, actually. There's now a sort of, a view that even getting your kids eyes tested, "Oh, well, the school should do that. That's the school's responsibility." Teaching your kid to read, "No, that's the school's responsibility." There's this, uh, I guess, devolving of your responsibility as a parent. If you're, if you're not willing to teach your kid how to read, you shouldn't be a mom or dad, if you ask me. That's my view. And some people won't like that, but at this point, I couldn't care less. But yes, the one thing I do regret is, is the, the tone, I guess, of that tweet. The, the, the... I guess it could've come across as being mean-spirited, but I still... I'm, I'm afraid (laughs) I still stand by that I, I don't like politics in sport, you know. I want, I want Rashford to be winning for England. I'd like him to be doing a little less winning for, for Manchester. But apart from that, you know, I'd like him to, to be, to be p- doing his sport, playing. Because you're right, there's a politicization of everything now. I mean, the BBC This Morning, posted out from BBC Women, the, the BBC Women account, quite why there's a BBC Women account, I don't know. But they posted out saying that, "Is it right?" sort of asking for questions or, or comment on the debate about showing children pornography to teach them about consent and other issues.

   6. CWChris Williamson35:19

      Didn't someone from GB News get annihilated about this only last week?

   7. DGDarren Grimes35:24

      Yes, I think so, yeah. So there's, uh... I mean, there's been a fair few little bits about this coming c- out and about, and I think the reason why the BBC actually, uh, ran this is because it was someone, it was Amber Rudd's daughter had tweeted something to that effect, saying, "I think a good idea to teach kids about consent, uh, you know, would be to, to do this, to advocate in it." And she quickly deleted it.

   8. CWChris Williamson35:48

      I mean, so, so does, does, does porn assist with consent? Like, what, what do you highlight, like, how does porn teach anybody about consent?

   9. DGDarren Grimes35:57

      I think the ba- I think the, the... uh, actually contained within this thread, uh, uh, I... it wasn't a logical thread, I mean, an actual thread on Twitter, and it basically said, "Well, there wouldn't be any choking or things like that." And you think, "My God, was any- would anyone really propose that with bairns, with kids, with children? What, what world are we living in? What sick, twisted reality?"

   10. CWChris Williamson36:20

       But that also presumes-

   11. DGDarren Grimes36:21

       "Have I won today?"

   12. CWChris Williamson36:21

       ... as well that choking can't be consensual, which is also wrong.

   13. DGDarren Grimes36:24

       Yes, of course, but I still think that children shouldn't be-

   14. CWChris Williamson36:27

       I think porn and ch-

   15. DGDarren Grimes36:28

       ... exposed to those themes.

   16. CWChris Williamson36:29

       I think p- p- porn and children, just, like, if, if you're thinking-

   17. DGDarren Grimes36:33

       No. Exactly.

   18. CWChris Williamson36:33

       ... if anybody that's listening to this is thinking, "Got this idea about..."... it's sort of porn and children. I might tweet about it, just that. Those are two of the sort of red boxes and you're like, nah. If, if those two things are in the tweet, just don't put it out.

   19. DGDarren Grimes36:49

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson36:49

       There's, there's, there are, the final ultimate taboo is anything around underage kids and sex.

   21. DGDarren Grimes36:56

       Absolutely.

   22. CWChris Williamson36:56

       Like it, it's, it is, it is the one that no matter where you stand, there is not a single person that's going to be on your side. So doing that just seems like, it just seems so dumb. And then yeah, for BBC Three or B- whatever, BBC Women to tweet out about, you're like, "What? What are we achieving here?" Like really? I mean-

   23. DGDarren Grimes37:12

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson37:13

       I don't know, man. I don't know. I, here's another one. So Twitter again. Uh, Owen Jones trending today. I've had an idea, 'cause I come from an events background. How do you feel about UK political commentary celebrity boxing? And then-

   25. DGDarren Grimes37:28

       Right.

   26. CWChris Williamson37:28

       ... maybe Owen Jones-Douglas Murray, 'cause I'd pay very good money to watch that happen.

   27. DGDarren Grimes37:35

       I mean, you on this very show were talking to Douglas about his exercise routine, about what he's been doing with his arms, and that he's got some pretty serious arms.

   28. CWChris Williamson37:44

       He does, man. Seriously.

   29. DGDarren Grimes37:44

       I really think he could take Owen Jones on. (laughs) Um, not that I've been admiring Douglas' arms with, with any great, uh, depth. Wink wink. Um, but I, I think that's probably a good idea, canny idea. Because actually the problem is with people like Owen Jones and, and others like them, they're just not willing to engage with, with people on the other side of the argument. They think that... Uh, I go back to Roger Scruton again actually, which is Roger Scruton said that, "I don't think the left are evil. I just think they're mistaken." And that's the difference between me and, you know, the likes of Owen Jones. He genuinely thinks that people like me are evil scum of the earth. And I just-

   30. CWChris Williamson38:24

       That's a really nice distinction. It's a really nice distinction-
6. 38:57 – 48:14

   Over-sexualised Society

   1. DGDarren Grimes38:57

   2. CWChris Williamson38:57

      Lil Nas X-

   3. DGDarren Grimes38:59

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson38:59

      ... he's got a new song out which is kind of like the gay male equivalent of WAP, of the WAP video.

   5. DGDarren Grimes39:07

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson39:07

      Have you seen this video?

   7. DGDarren Grimes39:08

      I haven't seen the video, I'm afraid, no.

   8. CWChris Williamson39:10

      Okay. So-

   9. DGDarren Grimes39:10

      I have seen the WAP video.

   10. CWChris Williamson39:11

       Right, okay. So it's, it's kind of like that, but it's in a prison and it's all men instead of-

   11. DGDarren Grimes39:17

       Right.

   12. CWChris Williamson39:17

       ... instead of all women. And Lil Nas X and his, his backup dancers are completely naked, but, and then there's sort of blurred, blurred over the top of the areas that matter. And, um, I was just quite surprised because when WAP came out, that it was so provocative, and maybe the lyrics were a tiny bit more provocative. But yet it sort of created this furor online about women empowering, being empowered by their own bodies and stuff like this, and not being an object for the male gaze. It's sort of we're retaking control of our personal sovereignty and stuff like that. And we haven't seen the equivalent with a man also doing it for the male gaze. Uh, we haven't seen the same with that. I don't really know why, and I wondered, uh, given your sexual predilection, if you had a-

   13. DGDarren Grimes40:03

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson40:03

       ... unique insight into this.

   15. DGDarren Grimes40:06

       I, I think there's, with gay men, there is a lot of deep-rooted shame with a lot of gay men still. I think there's a lot of a sense of actually... And one thing I find quite sad is this idea that I think there's a lot of gay men who... (laughs) I'm gonna get very deep here. I'll get me violin out. There's a lot of gay men who don't think, for example, they're sort of, they don't recognize any form of self-worth. I think they could do with listening to a lot of your sort of motivation and positive thinking mantra. Because I think there's a lot of people who have been made to feel shame throughout their life. I think that still ex- My brother's generation, he's, uh, eight years younger than I am. I think my brother's generation have, have had it different at school to, to what I did at school. And that's a pretty fast trajectory. You know, things have changed at breakneck speed. So I think future generations won't have that problem. Whether or not you need to... Do, do I need to bring sort of show off my bits, dangly bits to, to feel liberated? I don't, I don't, I don't necessarily think that's, that's true. I think to feel liberated, I need to feel like a ordinary member of society. That's why I supported same-sex marriage. I want to be as boring as all, all of you straight people, right? I want to be able to walk around and I come from that, I guess, old tradition of, of gay men that actually just want to be boring, that actually just want to... They s- they would s- they would say that I'm pandering to hetero, uh, being heteronormative I think is, is what they call it. And I'd say, "Well, no, I just wanna live life." You know, I just want to be accepted by society, be a part of society. Uh, and I don't think that it's necessary to, to put out music videos like that. I'm just not sure what you gain from it, to be honest with you.

   16. CWChris Williamson41:59

       What... So I understand the, uh, the desire not to have your sexuality as the first and foremost part of your personality. Like I definitely understand that. I think the, the thing that was quite interesting was, uh, something Douglas said on this show where he said, "You realize that you have true equality when you have to put up with the same level of shit as everybody else." And that, um, lack of special treatment I actually think is quite... At least, like I only found out about this video seven days after it was released. It's had like 200 mi- some r- ridiculous number of views. It's number two trending on YouTube at the moment, and it's been out for a week, and I only found out about it in the sauna chatting to a mate yesterday.

   17. DGDarren Grimes42:37

       Mm-hmm.

   18. CWChris Williamson42:37

       So, and that, it, it completely slipped by me and I'm usually fairly active online looking for interesting stories. So-That was like, okay. Well, cool. That is a rapper releases a music video and in it he's naked.

   19. DGDarren Grimes42:52

       Mm-hmm.

   20. CWChris Williamson42:52

       And he's gay.

   21. DGDarren Grimes42:53

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CWChris Williamson42:53

       And his fans care, but nobody else does. I'm like, right, okay, that's progress. That really does feel like progress. Nobody gives a shit. Like that's the level ... Indifference-

   23. DGDarren Grimes43:03

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson43:03

       ... is the level that everybody should be aiming for with equality, I think.

   25. DGDarren Grimes43:08

       Yeah, I mean, there's a certain extent to which I think we're sort of taking things, everything is sex these days. You know, you've got Love Island, you've got, um, what, Too Hot to Handle on Netflix. You've got these music videos. You've got ... I, I just sort of think there, there's (laughs) probably such a thing as too much sex, right? I'm not sure why we, we are so obsessed with this now, to, uh, to what extent the, the sort of, I guess, children are being, you, you know, brought up ... I remember we used to watch music videos in the, the sort of common room at school, to what extent we did have a common room. And, um, uh, you, you would watch them back to back and I'm thinking, God, the kids that are watching music videos these days. You know, back in my day when, I don't know, The Sugababes were bopping about on a stool, it's quite different these days when people are, I don't know, patting themselves. And you just think, good God, what are kids watching? I ... So I'm turning into a right old fart. (laughs)

   26. CWChris Williamson44:10

       Well, dude, maybe this is part of the reason why increasingly people are needing ... We ... There's a, a, an insight that some young people need to learn about sex sooner. I mean, taking the, the porn thing out of it, like kids are being sexualized sooner-

   27. DGDarren Grimes44:24

       Yeah.

   28. CWChris Williamson44:24

       ... because it's at the forefront of everyone's conversation at the moment. But then it doesn't really seem to be about the thing that everybody's actually bothered with.

   29. DGDarren Grimes44:32

       Mm-hmm.

   30. CWChris Williamson44:33

       Like, no one's ever actually talking about how to find a good relationship, about how-
7. 48:14 – 52:19

   Encouraging Young People

   1. CWChris Williamson48:14

      an American and we were talking about one of the problems that the American culture has is when these young kids get older, because the American dream still, still very much sort of is alive. You can be whatever you want to be, the sort of American dream is still yours, even if that dream is kind of changing, I think the encouragement's still there. Whereas in the UK, it's a lot more tall poppy syndrome. You know, coming from a state school, if you talk a little bit differently, if you sound a bit differently, if you have different interests or whatever, like it's, it's a, it's a tough road. And what you get from ... The, the advantage that you have in the UK of that is that you don't ever believe your own bullshit.

   2. DGDarren Grimes48:49

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson48:50

      But the problem is you don't ever believe that you can be worth anything.

   4. DGDarren Grimes48:52

      Exactly.

   5. CWChris Williamson48:53

      So-

   6. DGDarren Grimes48:53

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson48:53

      ... you do get two sides of the coin. We're brought down to earth, and this is why I think you're seeing the super progressive, um, talking points just not land quite so well in the UK because we're quite salt of the earth people, generally.

   8. DGDarren Grimes49:07

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson49:07

      Uh, e- especially the place that me and you are from, you know-

   10. DGDarren Grimes49:09

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson49:09

       ... the Northeast of the UK. No one's bothered about that. It... When you're concerned about your next paycheck and keeping the- the lights on-

   12. DGDarren Grimes49:16

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson49:16

       ... you don't have time to worry about gendered pronouns and bathrooms-

   14. DGDarren Grimes49:18

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson49:18

       ... and stuff like that. Um, but the disadvantage you get is you don't have as much encouragement. And, you know, that's something for the people that have got younger brothers and sisters, like, that's your role. I, I, I'm an only child so I never had the opportunity to do that. But that's your role 100% to be the person that gasses them up. Like tell them they can do stuff, because they can. I mean, like, the number one desired job of primary school kids now is YouTuber. Like that's-

   16. DGDarren Grimes49:44

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson49:45

       ... the most desi- not policeman, not fireman, and, you know, m- maybe we're making this situation worse, but-

   18. DGDarren Grimes49:51

       (laughs)

   19. CWChris Williamson49:52

       ... uh, I, I definitely think that if, if that's the case then you literally can do it. Anybody can do it. There's like kids-

   20. DGDarren Grimes49:57

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson49:57

       ... that are making millions reviewing toys and stuff like that.

   22. DGDarren Grimes50:00

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CWChris Williamson50:00

       But I bet that there's still the same tall poppy syndrome challenge going on there. So yeah, that's... If I could change something about the UK, one of the top parts of the culture that I would do is this desire to mock or sort of drag people down that do non-typical pursuits.

   24. DGDarren Grimes50:17

       Absolutely. Definitely. And that's why we need to start talking about more things like technical education. You know, one of my brothers is a... works in distribution for a supermarket, you know, pulling, pulling out loads from factories and things like that all day long. Um, and he's in and out of work like that. And if... For, for someone like him, he would've really been able to benefit from a technical education. And it's interesting that you mentioned being a single child, because I actually think, you know, a lot of, a lot of my... what I'm passionate about comes from my experience with watching my brothers who, who have gone through the... exactly the same upbringing but with very different sort of pursuits. And so for him, technical education. And I think for my other brother, grammar school education. You know, there are... I think it's... I'm so passionate and so of the view that school choice and a diversity within education is, is the way we go about actually... Y- you put like-minded kids together and you say, "All right, well, you're interested in this, you're gonna be passionate, you're gonna give it your all." That's fantastic for kids. Uh, let's do more of that. And let's give people the, the chance to actually think, "I'm not stupid. I can actually... I am good at something." You know, that there's something here I'm passionate about. And make them feel that they can do something and achieve something with their lives. Because far too many people in, in places like this, and it's, it's utterly horrible, I know a fair few people from school, d- who are... have gone into just, you know, basically being alcoholics or, or drug addicts. And it's, it's sad to see. It's so sad to see. Um-

   25. CWChris Williamson51:57

       Too much porn. That's the problem. Too much porn.

   26. DGDarren Grimes51:59

       Well, maybe it's-

   27. CWChris Williamson52:00

       It-

   28. DGDarren Grimes52:00

       Maybe it's the porn, aye. Maybe it's the porn.

   29. CWChris Williamson52:01

       Too much porn in school. I think that might be-

   30. DGDarren Grimes52:03

       Definitely.
8. 52:19 – 1:02:12

   Hostile Societies in UK and USA

   1. CWChris Williamson52:19

      imagine... What do you think is the difference between the culture of the UK and the USA over the last 16 months that has occurred and the culture that Russia and China would have wanted to happen if they wanted to begin the disintegration of those two countries?

   2. DGDarren Grimes52:40

      Yes. Well, a culture that's basically eaten itself, we're at each other's throats, you know, it really does feel like that. It, it actually feels like the sort of environment, and I, I've heard this said before, the sort of environment that you'd expect before a, a sort of... especially in America, civil war, you know, where people really are. The, you're... A delegitimate, uh... I guess the delegitimization of an election, um, you've got people arguing over that, of course. You've got people arguing over Kamala Harris is one of the most unpopular vice presidents in quite some time. That's a really interesting, uh, statistic, I think. There are so many ways in which China-

   3. CWChris Williamson53:24

      Like hatred of the flag, like self-hatred of the flag.

   4. DGDarren Grimes53:26

      Absolutely.

   5. CWChris Williamson53:26

      Like that's literally the symbol of your country.

   6. DGDarren Grimes53:29

      Uh-huh. And a, a symbol of, for many people throughout the world who really, really want to be, um, um, part of American life, American values, who look at that flag and think, "Oh, wow, the freedom and liberty..." You know, when my granddad, um, served in Korea in the '50s and alongside th- the Americans and Australians and Gurkhas and a few others, but he, looking at the, the American flag, looking at the, the... our own flag, looking at the Union Jack, I daresay that they looked at those flags and felt immense pride in what we... they, they were doing. Because look at South Korea now, it's a beacon of freedom, of hope and prosperity. And you look at them in, uh, North Korea, a different example, and you think, "Wow, life there, not for me, gonna be honest. Looks pretty grim, pretty tough, pretty horrible." And you think, "Well done you, Grandad. I'm proud to know you, man." And you think... You look at the petulant prats today turning their backs on flags like the, the two of those I've just mentioned, the American or the UK flag, there are... we are... we have a, a period of self-loathing going on at the minute that'll have the Chinese and Russia rubbing them hands with glee. They must be delighted by this. They must be thrilled.... because it, it, that's the only way I can describe it, hatred. There is a deep-rooted resentment of your own country, and I don't understand it. And that's why I say conservativism is the philosophy of love, because there is certainly (laughs) none of that on our side of the argument. It seems to be exclusively coming from the so-called progressives. And to me, there's nothing progressive, there's nothing that's gonna leap- lead us forward about this self-loathing, about this everything my country does must be bad. And Douglas has said this before, I think he said it on your show, where if someone... if a, a person that you know does not have your best interests at heart says to you, "Chris, you should be doing X, you should be doing this. I think what you're doing now is really bad. Bit shite," you're gonna say, "Oh, well, (laughs) I'll take that with a pinch of salt, mate, 'cause you don't have my best interest at heart." I think that's exactly what we should be doing with these people who sneer at our flag, who do not wish our nation well, who seem to want to see it fail at almost any opportunity.

   7. CWChris Williamson55:58

      It's like gaslighting, like nation-

   8. DGDarren Grimes56:00

      It is.

   9. CWChris Williamson56:00

      ... nation-sized gaslighting. You're being taught, like, "I'm, I'm hitting you, but I'm only hitting you because I love you."

   10. DGDarren Grimes56:06

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson56:06

       And then it's almost like when you get that Stockholm syndrome of the person. They say, "Look, like, I stay with them for this reason," and it just appears to be self-perpetuated hatred coming from somewhere. And I found this out, uh, I can't remember who it was that I was speaking to, but I've found out that the largest Black Lives... the pro-Black Lives page on Facebook before BLM was started by the Internet Rese- Internet Research Agency in Russia.

   12. DGDarren Grimes56:34

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson56:34

       Like, it was... It... That was who began the page. So you think, "Okay, what are the chances that at least... Let's say that it's 10% of the last year's, um, violent and vociferous problems have come from those sorts of agents. What if it was the first 10%? What if that was the pebble at the top of the avalanche, and then you just allow people to do the social media thing?" So going back to the, the England, um, football analogy-

   14. DGDarren Grimes57:01

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson57:01

       ... the, the, the way that the press decided to perpetuate narratives about racism after the match. Now, I don't want that... uh, th- those idiots, absolute morons, th- the people that decided to tweet that stuff online-

   16. DGDarren Grimes57:13

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson57:13

       ... or, or contact the players, or deface m- murals and stuff like that. But I don't feel too good about what the press did either, because all that did was they said, "Look, the headline of, 'We played well but, unluckily, we didn't win,'" it isn't gonna generate that many clicks.

   18. DGDarren Grimes57:28

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson57:28

       But look at these closet racists from Romford and Blyth and, you know, Carlisle and all of these working-class towns. We always knew that this was the case, and now they've finally had their opportunity to do it, and then to perpetuate it for days and days and days. You think like, "Well, what's this achieving?" Like is it-

   20. DGDarren Grimes57:45

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson57:45

       ... do you think this is for the betterment of the country? Is it, is it educating people on, on racism or is it using fringe examples to limbically hijack people? And then after you've limbically hijacked them, are you just creating more divisiveness within it? I mean, you did see a really good response, as m- maybe you could say from that you saw th- this sort of beautiful presentation on Rashford's mural where people went and they made this really sort of nice display where it was fixed and, and, and people showed love. But I think you, you probably could have got away with that with just one story. I don't think you would've needed to keep it going for a full week.

   22. DGDarren Grimes58:18

       Well, actually, the Rashford memorial, uh, the ma- Rashford mural rather memorial is, is actually important, because of the fact that the police had to release a statement saying that they didn't think that it was racism. (laughs) It... there was no sort of racist graffiti on the, the mural. And you-

   23. CWChris Williamson58:35

       Oh, it's just like you, you take bad penalties or something.

   24. DGDarren Grimes58:37

       Something like that. I don't know. It wasn't me, I promise. And, um, you, you look at these things and you think, "Well, hang on a minute." Because this was, this was going round and round on Twitter. You had people standing next to this mural on their bended knee, Black Lives Matter posters and things like that, and you're thinking, "Well, hang on a minute. It had s-... The police have just told whether it had sod all to do with racism, and it had everything to do with some, (laughs) you know, some silly bugger just graffitiing af- uh, probably being a bit miffed about the footie match that had just been played in." And you think, "Well, why would they do that? Hmm, that's interesting." And it's, it's to stir up, uh, that divisiveness. It's exactly what we on the conservative right get accused of all the time, this stirring up of hatred. You know, "Oh, you're hate- hateful speech," and all the rest of it. I'm sorry, but I think the ones that are stirring up hatred here are those trying to perpetua- th- that push this narrative of racist old Blighty. You know, br- post-Brexit Britain backwater that it is, racist backwater, doesn't like immigrants, doesn't like people, footballers that play well like Marcus Rashford, which is, it's palpable nonsense. I mean, the number of people... Uh, if I look back throughout my life, I kinda think of many examples where I've, I've heard of racism directed at, at footballers because of the fact that people don't seem to care much about the color of the skin of the footie players on the pitch. They just care about the fact that the, the footie players, no matter what their color, no matter what their, their sexuality, they are good on the pitch. They can perform well for their teams. That the color of their skin, their immutable characteristics, has absolutely sod all to do with their performance. And you think, "Is a country like that racist?" And you're right, all of the examples of racism tended... uh, they seem to come from abroad with... You know, I think it was even BBC Newsnight that looked into that and found those statistics. And then you look a bit further and you think, "Well, hang on. What's going on here? Why are they... Why are people doing this? Why is this happening? Why is my country having this?"You know, all- as you say, all of these newspapers, there was a collective sort of circle jerk of hysteria over this stuff, saying, "Nasty Briton," "Horrible, racist blighty." And that's- we have fallen to such a large extent if we genuinely have pockets of society that th- those that are publishing the news stories, those that are tweeting, those that are... And y- you mentioned there that 20% of people on- are on Twitter, you mentioned that earlier. Th- uh, 20% is actually quite disproportionately high if you cons- compare it with the likes of India, for example. If you compare it with other economies, th- it's actually quite high. There are a lot of British people on it compared to other countries around the world. And you think, as far as the, the cultural clout that Twitter has in this country as well, tweets will end up in papers, right? Tweets will make news. Tweets will decide the headlines of stories. And you think, "Why are these people so self-loathing?" And that's something I cannot answer.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:02:07

       I was gonna say, have you got any impression about why-

   26. DGDarren Grimes1:02:10

       (laughs) I haven't. I haven't.

   27. CWChris Williamson1:02:10

       ... because I- so I, I understand

9. 1:02:12 – 1:12:06

   Scepticism of Media & Government

   1. CWChris Williamson1:02:12

      in the first instance that limbically hijacking people is good for traffic, because things that you really agree with or things that you really hate are both shit that you're gonna click on. That makes sense. Um, but it just feels like there was- it felt like there was more going on than that. It was just so perpetuated over and over and over again. I don't know whether it was a slow week for news, um, maybe, maybe they genuinely do, the people in the BBC or the, The Guardian or whoever's commenting on this stuff, maybe they genuinely do believe that this is, um, s- such a, a, a righteous, um, cause that they do need to continue talking about it because people need to know and they haven't known enough just yet. And (exhales) I mean, that's the be- if that's the best interpretation, this sort of oddly paternalistic, uh, uh, view of the world, and then from there, it's just, like, China and Russian agents and share bots all the way down, as far as I can see.

   2. DGDarren Grimes1:03:05

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:03:05

      It just gets potentially worse and potentially worse and potentially worse. And, um, yeah, man, I, I want to find out about this, uh, about this China stuff because the small insight that I've had into what Russia's doing at the moment is terrifying.

   4. DGDarren Grimes1:03:17

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:03:17

      And it just feels like- it feels to me like there's something else going on. It feels like I- my real world experience doesn't match up with the things that I'm seeing on the internet and the stories that are being noted. Like, I've met a million people on the front door of nightclubs. I've watched a million people go in and out of events that I've done. I must have seen maybe two things that are racist ever. That's in 15 years.

   6. DGDarren Grimes1:03:42

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:03:42

      A million people. Like, there is no sample size that's going to be bigger than that. And I stand on the door, so I see when the Black bouncer drags a white customer out for being too drunk or having a fight or snogging someone in the corner or whatever. I see when that happens. And this white guy, or could be in reverse, has got every reason in the world to be very, very angry at this person. They've just lost their night, they've- away from all their friends, they've had a little bit of booze. And even in that sort of the most base, unfiltered version of ourselves, like the least gracious natures of ourselves comes on nights out, even then, I don't see it.

   8. DGDarren Grimes1:04:19

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:04:19

      I'm like, if that's not the situation in which it's going to happen... So I don't know. I just- I, I, I really think that the last 16 months, one of the main things that I've learned is to be increasingly skeptical, not only of the people-

   10. DGDarren Grimes1:04:31

       Yes.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:04:31

       ... that are in power, but of the things that I see in the press. And this may be like, "Uh, duh, mate." Like, you know, the Michael Malices of the world-

   12. DGDarren Grimes1:04:37

       (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson1:04:38

       ... are messaging me and going, "You're an idiot." Like-

   14. DGDarren Grimes1:04:40

       (laughs)

   15. CWChris Williamson1:04:40

       ... "Why were you ever believing this in the first place?" But again, like, you know, if you're the sort of person that's a bit orderly and has faith in institutions, you don't think that there's something to bring up.

   16. DGDarren Grimes1:04:49

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson1:04:49

       You don't usually consider that m- maybe they don't have my best interests at heart. But, like, holy fuck, man. Like this last year-

   18. DGDarren Grimes1:04:56

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:04:56

       ... has completely eroded any of my trust in legacy media and in the people that are supposed to be in power.

   20. DGDarren Grimes1:05:04

       But it's interesting that you mention that, that, that line there about middle class people who are paternalistic, because it seem- it does strike me as a really patronizing view. Like, oh, well, actually, what, what, um, racial arguments and, and tensions need is me to patronize people and say, "I know what's good for you." You know? I, I don't- I'd, I'd like to hear more conversations from, I don't know, Black mothers, for example, in the likes of London, that are saying to, to these middle class liberals who are clutching their pearls and saying, "We must stop stop and search because it disproportionately affects certain communities in this country." There are mothers who have been interviewed about this stuff and they're saying, "I like stop and search. I want stop and search because actually it's making me feel like my child is safe, that my child might actually stand a better chance of coming home tonight." And you look at- you hear that argument and the fear. Imagine fearing that your child's not gonna come home because-

   21. CWChris Williamson1:06:05

       Wha-

   22. DGDarren Grimes1:06:05

       ... they're gonna be stabbed to death.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:06:07

       Imagine being a Black mother of a young kid and realizing that the potential reason that your now dead child didn't make it home is because somebody sat in Westminster or somebody that was at The Guardian put enough political pressure on to say this is discriminatory.

   24. DGDarren Grimes1:06:26

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:06:26

       And again, like it, it does come back, like it's, it's- for me, the more that I think about it, especially over the last year, there were certain things that needed to be done very quickly. There were things that required rapid and un-, uh, unmolested progress in order to be able to keep up with the pace of change that was happening in the world, but it doesn't need to be spread across everything. And I really do think- what was- what did your sign say? Steady on or something?

   26. DGDarren Grimes1:06:51

       Hmm. Well, w- yeah, steady, just the word steady.

   27. CWChris Williamson1:06:54

       Steady. Yeah. So I do think, you know, test things away. I mean, have you seen this Refund The Police now? So the studies came out in America that said that last year, murders are at, uh, an all-time high from the last 30 years. It was a 20 or 25% year-on-year increase, largest since the mid-'90s. And so far this year, it's 15% up.... on top of that, and all of the researchers, every single one of them seems to agree that police presence is the best way to reduce homicides.

   28. DGDarren Grimes1:07:26

       And I mean, the number of police officers in DC that have killed themselves from mon- uh, that one force, that-

   29. CWChris Williamson1:07:32

       I haven't seen this. What's this?

   30. DGDarren Grimes1:07:33

       ... got, yeah, that got involved with the Capitol, what happened at the Capitol Building with the, uh, the, uh, the c- I guess storming of the Capitol Building.
10. 1:12:06 – 1:21:37

    Narcissistic Middle-class Technocrats

    1. CWChris Williamson1:12:06

       I don't know, man. I, I, I was talking the other day to Jay PCers and he used to be a life coach, and he was saying that, um, empathy is actually a very narcissistic emotion.

    2. DGDarren Grimes1:12:15

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:12:15

       Because when you're caring about other people in that way, what you're presuming is, "Without me, your life is going to suffer so much." And that, I think, that sort of... Uh, maybe there is a little bit of guilt of being born with more access to resources or a better education and stuff like that, and perhaps that does trickle down to these people thinking, "Well, what I need to do, what my duty is, is to bestow-

    4. DGDarren Grimes1:12:41

       Mm-hmm.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:12:41

       ... this gated information-

    6. DGDarren Grimes1:12:43

       Mm-hmm.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:12:43

       ... that me and my friends are the only ones that we, that we have access to." But the dumb thing is, especially, you know, coming from a working class background and state schools like we both have, like, I w- I arrived at university and met people from private school for the first time. I'd never met anyone from-

    8. DGDarren Grimes1:13:00

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:13:00

       ... a private school really prior to that. I'd just been at state schools. And I looked at the people who arrived at Newcastle Uni, a red brick, a proper university, and I saw just as many, if not more fuck-ups come from the people that had been away at boarding school, like, uh, Pocklington, Hymers, you know, like all of these, like, sort of middle Yorkshire really expensive schools-

    10. DGDarren Grimes1:13:23

        Mm-hmm.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:13:23

        ... boarding, 30 grand a year plus, and they came... (laughs) ... they came and they were just as fucked as everybody else.

    12. DGDarren Grimes1:13:28

        Mm-hmm.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:13:29

        Like, they didn't have, they didn't have their stuff sorted at all. And, um-

    14. DGDarren Grimes1:13:33

        Yep.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:13:33

        ... yeah, p- presuming that levels of education imbue you with some sort of better moral sense, I think, at the very least, is probably inaccurate and actually might run in the opposite direction.

    16. DGDarren Grimes1:13:47

        Oh, yeah, absolutely. Because you, what you quickly find right is, is with... And I've noticed this as well, I hadn't met anyone really, until I moved down south, until I went to Brighton, anyone that went to private school, 'cause I'd worked in... uh, I, the only, my jobs were working in a supermarket and working in a hairdresser's, right? You don't meet many people that went to private schools in those sort of lines of work. And, um, I, I thought it was like another world. And you think... You, you talk to some people and they're, they just... They're so infantilized 'cause they haven't had a... And this, this isn't... I'm generalizing massively, and I've, I've got many friends (laughs) who went to private schools and they are not like this. But there, there's this sort of infantilization where the kind of person that I assume you're talking about at Newcastle Uni would be the sort of person that is like, "Oh, my word, there's this... Look how cheap the drinks are," right? There's this sort of, uh, like-

    17. CWChris Williamson1:14:48

        It's Newcastle, man. It's three trebles for £5.50.

    18. DGDarren Grimes1:14:50

        Exactly.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:14:50

        Catch up, come on.

    20. DGDarren Grimes1:14:51

        And there are, like, bends in sort of sweet shops, right? And you're just, you're, like, looking at them, like, "What world have you been living in?" Like, "What world have you experienced?"

    21. CWChris Williamson1:15:04

        So I think that you're right, there's, there's definitely a minority of people that were like that. Um, and the, the worst culture that I saw, and I... This may trickle down to when they become adults and perhaps they get into positions of power, and maybe they go into journalism and become, become influential in that way or something.

    22. DGDarren Grimes1:15:19

        Mm-hmm.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:15:19

        Um, the way... The thing that really, really riled me up was when everything felt a little bit like a game. It was the individuals to whom everything felt like a... Nothing was taken seriously-

    24. DGDarren Grimes1:15:33

        Mm-hmm.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:15:33

        ... um, because the, the, the subtext of that was, "I will be able to either pay or talk my way out of some sort of a problem." And it all felt, university and some of the situations, kind of all seemed a bit like, like a summer holiday-

    26. DGDarren Grimes1:15:51

        Mm-hmm.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:15:51

        ... to them, you know. Like, "Right, I'm just here for a while. Like, I'll fuck shit up, I don't really care."

    28. DGDarren Grimes1:15:55

        Mm-hmm.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:15:55

        "I don't need to act virtuously." Um, and, you know, fortunately, I ended up in, uh, living with four other guys, I think all of whom went to private schools, but I was finding the ones that I really resonated with, and there was an equal, if not greater number of people who had this sort of... And, you know, you could have people that didn't go to private school, went to state schools, but had quite a privileged upbringing, maybe they were from London, perhaps they were from, you know, just somewhere that seemed, yeah, a little bit more walled off, a little bit more protected.

    30. DGDarren Grimes1:16:26

        Mm-hmm.

Episode duration: 1:22:05