Modern WisdomWhat To Do When Life Feels Empty & Overwhelming - Simon Sinek (4K)
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
155 min read · 31,329 words- 0:00 – 9:32
Are We In A Crisis Of Purpose?
- CWChris Williamson
Do you think we're in a crisis of purpose right now?
- SSSimon Sinek
Uh, I mean, I think it's pretty obvious that we are. I mean, it's embarrassing that I have a career, right? (laughs) Um, there should be no demand for my work. (laughs) Um, yeah, I, I think that the... In general, I think people would admit it. I think the, the, you know... Who can say whether it's a, that it's the first time it's ever happened, but I think people are more open to say that they either want it or are missing it, so.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, but I think, uh, we've definitely seen the workplace change over the past few decades. Um, we've definitely seen the decline in church membership over the past few decades. We've definitely seen, um, you know, increased rates of loneliness and, and anxiety and depression. And, um, so, uh, and I think there's a lot of... And this, and the significant rise of sort of retreats and purpose, you know, events and things like that. So yeah, I've-
- CWChris Williamson
Men's groups.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. Well, yeah. So I think there's a, a... I think it's safe to say yes. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Where... What are the areas that have fallen away? You mentioned work, you mentioned church, community.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
These are things that perhaps 50 years ago-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... 100 years ago would have been more prevalent.
- SSSimon Sinek
Well, we... W- what's interesting is the, what we've seen in the world, like we... People used to get their sense of purpose from church, you know, s- or things like that. Um, we had bowling, uh, leagues, uh, and s- and, and, you know, extracurricular activities, where people had their friends group. Um, uh, you socialized with your neighbors. And work was a place you went to to make a living. It wasn't supposed to be this end all, be all of everything. And as those things fell away, we started to put more and more pressure on the workplace to provide those things. So now we're looking for our work to provide our sense of purpose, to provide our sense of community, to pro- e- to provide our social life, and, and now, and now we're also saying that work should be the place that agrees with my politics. That never used to happen. And so for better or for worse, there's a tremendous amount of pressure on the workplace and leaders in the workplace to be able to successfully offer all of those things. And people are quitting their jobs because they're not getting those things. Um, uh, and it never used to be a thing. Um, I think also we're doing the same thing in our relationships. There's, there's a correlation, which is, you know, you had your friends, you had your, your spouse, or your girlfriend, your boyfriend, and, uh, and, um, you didn't expect your partner, your romantic partner, to be able to provide everything. Be my rock, be my best friend, be my lover, be, you know, m- m- my stability, be the pers... And yet now we put overwhelming amounts of pressure on one person to be everything, the same way we're putting overwhelming amounts of pressure on our workplaces to be everything. We're setting both up to fail, by the way.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, which I think leaves us in a malaise and loss. So I think all of these weird, you know, concoctions are, are contributing to that sense of, of loss or, or looking.
- CWChris Williamson
Interesting that it's not necessarily that we're applying more pressure just to work and relationships because of some pivot in culture, but that the previous other, uh, contributors have fallen away.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And when there's less, uh, of a, um, hedged market in that regard, you've got all of your money into a couple of stocks, one of the stocks being work and another one of the stocks being your partner.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And that's an amount of pressure that is gonna be very difficult for them to fulfill, and also wo- not necessarily what they were entirely designed to fulfill.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. It's one, one person can't be everything. Um, otherwise we'd have no n- need for friends. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, uh, one person can't be everything, one place can't be everything. Now, having said that, we can't argue against it. It's the way of the world. We can talk about how we got here that might be a little bit useful, kind of maybe not. You know, s- technology definitely played a role. You know, for me to get entertainment, there wasn't that much TV. I had to leave the house. Uh, I went, I went d- now all of our entertainment is right at our fingertips on television or on our phones. I mean, there's no reason to leave the house. We're now at a point where you don't even have to go to the movies anymore 'cause you can just wait a week, or zero, and start streaming whatever you wanna watch. Um, uh, so there's no reason to leave the house.
- CWChris Williamson
How do you, how do you come to think about people deliberately cultivating meaning in their life? Is this a process that you can go through? Is this, uh, a... I- i- is it emergent or is it something that you can, um, decide to try and achieve, to cultivate?
- SSSimon Sinek
Oh, no, no, no, no, no. You can definitely seek it out. I mean, you can definitely seek it out. People find purpose many different ways. Um, some will stumble upon it. Um, there'll be a crisis. Um, there'll be a realization. They'll survive something. You know, you, you very often hear people who survived drug addiction or alcoholism or s- or some sort of battle, they devote their lives to helping other people overcome the thing that they overcame. They, that, that crisis gave them a sense of purpose. Um, you know, people have families and it gives them a renewed sense of, of purpose to, to, to take care of, uh, uh, of other human beings. Um, uh, leadership, you know, when you find yourself responsible for the lives of others, you know, people find purpose in that too. Um, you know, those are all, um... I would be hesitant to tell people to wait for something like that 'cause it may never happen, right? Or, or you may not learn the lesson if something does happen. Um, and so the process of uncovering purpose is an objective process, anyone can go through it. Um, m- mine, my discovering of my purpose came through crisis. Um, I lost my passion for my work. Um, I owned a small business, um, and I didn't wanna go to work anymore. Uh, I completely fell out of love, and I was very, very, very embarrassed because superficially everything looked good. I mean, I own my own business. I had good clients, like, "Oh, Simon doesn't wanna go to work," you know? And so I kept it to myself, which is a stupid thing to do.Um, turns out when you're in a dark place and you don't tell anybody about it, it gets darker. That's sort of how it goes. Um, and it wasn't until a friend of mine confronted me and said, "There's something wrong and you are not telling me." And I came clean, and it lifted a huge weight off my shoulders, 'cause now I did not feel alone in my pursuit of being lost. 'Cause when you're lost and you keep it to yourself, you stay lost.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, and this is just, we're human animals. Like, we need each other, right? Um, and so when you're lost and you simply tell somebody, "I'm lost," and they're willing to just hold your hand and make you not feel alone, even though the journey is still your own, um, the energy you have, the focus you have, the clarity you get exponentially increases. And that's what happened to me. And I now had the energy to find the problem and re- rediscover purpose. I made this discovery of this thing called The Why. Um, um, more important than finding my own, I h- I figured out how to help others find theirs. I started helping my friends. Their friends asked me to help their friends, and before you knew it, people were asking me to talk about it, and then I got an opportunity to write about it. So, there is a process to find your why, um, and, uh, I'm proud to be a part of the... proud to be a part of that to- to help people find it. It's completely changed my life, so...
- CWChris Williamson
Does this mean that going through a catastrophe or a low point is a gift in retrospect, in a bizarre way?
- SSSimon Sinek
Everybody I've ever talked to who's learned a significant lesson from catastrophe or low points, we all are secretly grateful. Like, n- none o- nobody wants to go through it again. Like, I hope I never go through anything like that again. It was awful, but I'm glad it happened, you know? Um, I think there are lessons to be learned in everything that goes wrong in our lives, and the question is, are you willing to learn those lessons? Um, and for those who are, who are, who, who... to simply go through something awful... And by the way, it's all relative. A, a breakup could be the thing, you know? I mean, it, it doesn't have to be something y- you know, that the world regards as catastrophic, you know? Um, but something that's, you know, losing a job, I mean, anything that challenges you emotionally, the question we have to ask ourselves is like, "Well, can I learn from this?" And a part of that is accountability, you know? I th- and I think that if we wanna talk about... If you wanna find purpose, you have to take accountability for your life. And what I mean by that is, is like no one can bestow it upon you. No one can just give you a purpose. It is within you and you- it is there to be discovered, right? But at the same time, everything that happens to us in our lives, um, we have to say, "Okay, how did I contribute to this? How am I responding to this? How can I make this bad situation better? What did I do to make this situation happen?" And if it was just bad luck, then, and then... it... we can all easily fall in and out of victimhood, and it, it plays its role if something bad happens. Like, it, it makes us feel better to be like, "The world hates me." You know?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, but at the same time, at some point, we take accountability for the life that we're living in the present. We... The past we can't change, um, but we can, we can be, we can be fully present to say, "Okay, what am I gonna... I- if this has happened, how can I grow from this?" And that's accountability.
- 9:32 – 22:24
Why It's Important To Sit In 'The Mud' With Someone
- SSSimon Sinek
That's accountability.
- CWChris Williamson
What else are the differences between the people who go through a bad time and learn lessons from it and in retrospect say, "I don't wanna do it again, but I'm glad it happened," and the people who go through a bad time and there's no alchemy out the other side of it?
- SSSimon Sinek
I th- I really do believe it's, it's having people by our side that make us feel not alone as we go through it. I've talked about this before where, you know, the mistake we make as friends is we think we have to fix, um, or offer advice to people who are going through something. You know, somebody's going through something horrible, a breakup, they got fired, whatever, you know, whatever it is. Something went horribly wrong. Um, and we... Well-intentioned, say, "Well, you should do this," or, "Why don't you just go get this?" And, you know, a friend of mine who had a, who had a job at a company for mo- most of his career got fired, didn't see it coming. Um, and he went through this deep depression, and like most of the advice he got was, "Just get another job," and, you know, "Success is the biggest F you," and, you know, "You'll show them." And, um, uh... And they were well-intentioned in their advice, but that's not what he needed. He needed somebody to just sit in the mud with him, and, you know, it was just by happenstance, you know, I was the first frie- friend, friend to come to him and just be like, "Boy, that... that really hurts." That's all I said. Like, "That really... that really hurts."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
"That's... This really... This is really hard." And he goes, "Yeah." I was like... He's like... I said, "Don't worry about getting another job. Just sit for a little bit." Like, "Yes, at some point you're gonna have to, but not today." You know? Mourn the loss. And that, that... Just being told it's okay to have a feeling as opposed to action, action, action, action, which is our default, especially in the States, you know, and the West, like, if you're not doing something, you're a loser, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, and all it takes is one friend to say, "I'll sit in the mud with you." Um, amazingly, people know what they need. Amazingly, people know what they need. I, I was going through a hard time. I was going through... I wasn't, I wasn't my best self. I was, I was in a bad place. And, uh, a friend called me up and said, "How are you?" And I s- started saying, "I'm in a bad place, and this is what I'm feeling," and, and, uh, and she started offering me advice. Well-intentioned. And I said, "Can you not? I don't want that."... "Can you just let me tell you? I just need to- I just need to get it out?" And she's like, "Yeah, so- totally sorry, totally sorry." So you can tell somebody what you need and you can reset.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You can reset, it doesn't ruin anything. At the same time, you can ask somebody as well. You know? So if somebody's like, "I'm going through hell," you can say, "Do you want me to offer you advice? Do you want me to give you some op- opinions? Or do you want me to just sit in the mud with you?" And they'll be like, "Ah, just sit in the mud with me." Like, people know what they need. And at the right time, they'll say, "I think- I think I'm ready now for that advice." Right? And so we- we- we're- most of us are well intentioned where we either offer, you know, um ... Or if somebody's, like w- if somebody's giving us advice where we don't want it, we just sort of shut them out, which is also the wrong thing to do. Just tell people. Uh, it goes back to communication, but at the end of the day, doing any of this stuff alone, and this is what we're getting to, you know, if s- one of these things happens, tell somebody. Tell somebody. You don't need to have a best friend, you just need somebody who you can tell.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know, this is why there's a rise of therapy and things like that. Like, that's a stranger ...
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
... that you can tell.
- CWChris Williamson
Surrogate confidant.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know? Um, uh, you know, the diff- the difference between a therapist and a friend is, you know, your friend never says, "Time's up." You know? (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
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- SSSimon Sinek
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
I love that insight around ... the subtext of what somebody giving you advice is saying, and it's well intentioned, and they're really trying to help.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, and it's th-
- SSSimon Sinek
And even if it's the wrong thing, it's coming from a good place.
- CWChris Williamson
They're saying, "Hey, my friend's in trouble and I want to get them out of trouble."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
From an emotional standpoint, I think what your brain tells you is, "I'm not okay, and my not okayness is making them not okay."
- SSSimon Sinek
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
"So they have to fix me. I can't be not okay because it's causing an impact over there." And even if ... Uh, uh, there's a great scene in The Kardashians my friend Charlie did an analysis of, he compared Theo Von talking to Sean Strickland to, uh, the mother Kardashian talking to one of the daughter Kardashians. Sean Strickland's really, really struggling, and Theo's response to him is, "It's okay, man. We don't need to talk. We can just sit here for a while if you want."
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
That's lit-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... or as close to saying "Let's sit in the mud" as-
- 22:24 – 35:45
Simon’s Definition of Friendship
- SSSimon Sinek
and so it's really hard to be human, and we actually have to learn and practice and read and watch things and ask people to get better at being human, and some people choose to be the best human beings they can be and they go on that journey. By the way, you'll never be a great human being, you'll never be perfect. You'll just be varying degrees of good. Some of us choose to go on that journey for both reasons. It feels good, it makes me a better version of myself, I like who I am more now than I did before, and for others. I am a better friend, I'm a better partner, I'm a better son, I'm a better father, whatever it is, because I chose to go on this journey. And then it goes right back to, what is a friend? Why do we need friends? What is a friend? And I'm thinking a lot about friendship these days. We know that a lot of people are struggling with friendships these days. I think men are struggling more than women. As I talk about this concept of friendship, women come up to me, but men come up to me, like, with much more sort of... They're r- they're hurting, and it doesn't matter how successful, it doesn't matter how old, I'm getting it from every age, every income bracket. In fact, the more successful ones are struggling the most. Um, and, uh... But how can we talk about friendship? We know what a romantic partner is. We know what a, a relationship at work is. We have formal hierarchies that helps us understand where we are in the pecking order, but what is a friend? Does every friend have to be a deep, meaningful relationship? No, clearly. Do you want every friend to just be superficial fun? No, don't want that either. Do we have to make every, every fun friend a deep meaning? Does every engagement... No, of course not. So what is a friend?You have to have a definition of something before you know you can build it. My definition of friend is the exact same definition I have for a romantic relationship, and it's the exact same definition I have for community. A friend is a, is, a friendship is when two people agree to grow together. A relationship is when two people agree to grow together. A community is a group of people who agree to grow together. And what that means is, I will take myself on, I know you're taking yourself on. I'm gonna ask you to help me, and I'm gonna be there to help you. And if we get this right, community, corporate culture, friendship, romantic relationship, if we get this right, whether we stay in this relationship for a short term or a long term, whether it is successful or not, whether we actually i- end up hating the relationship or hating the job, one thing we can say for sure is if we agree to this, we will come out of this better versions of ourselves than when we went in. And so the success or failure of a relationship is not the point. Clearly, we want relationships to succeed. But if they don't, you better have gotten something out of it, and it goes full circle back to where we started, which is if you're gonna go through shit, you might as well learn something. And if you start with that intention from the beginning, and you say to the person after you develop a relationship or rapport, it, you don't even, I mean, you don't have to say it, but it's nice to say things. I'm, I'm a great believer in putting it all on the table. "I really like you. I feel like I'm growing because of you. You teach me things, you show me things, you hold me accountable when I screw up. I like that." Invariably, you're probably gonna get a response that says, "You're doing the same for me, and I really appreciate it too," or, "Well, I'm glad you like it. I don't get that from you." Like, you're gonna get information. But I think that the pursuit of friendship is to find someone who's willing to grow with you. Now, the big caveat is are you willing to grow yourself? Are you willing to grow yourself? And I think where people get stuck, when, and I've, and this is the saddest part, I hear people tell me, "I have no close friends." They have friends they hang out with, people they have a good time with, go out, play video games with, whatever it is, you know. But they wouldn't call any of them to say, "I'm struggling." And so that's where the loneliness sets in. And there is some degree of accountability there, right? Where we can play the victim. And the vic- t- to be a victim means I am not accountable, right? That's, that's what it is. It is being done to me, but I am not, I'm a passive player in this, right? And even if that's true, you still have a role in this thing called your life. You're, you're the actor in this play, right? You still have a role to play. And so even if things are being done to you, you, you, how you respond is you, right? Um, um, how you respond to conflict is you. You can choose to just disengage. I've seen that happen professionally, I've seen that happen personally. Something goes haywire, whether they deserve it or not, um, and they choose to just disengage, "Well, screw this," as opposed to learning how to have a confrontation, which doesn't mean coming and screaming and yelling and pointing. It means and come saying, "I am struggling. There is a story that I'm telling myself. I don't know if it's true or not, but can I tell you my story?" Um, and there's a great irony in it when you have a, a, a confrontation like that, which is your job is to help, is to help the other person feel safe, even though you feel that they're the oppressor. Hmm. Okay, let's unpack that. Dia Khan, who is a BAFTA-winning, think she's an Emmy-winning as well, uh, documentarian, um, grew up, uh, she's a Muslim woman living in the UK. She made some comments on the BBC that went viral about multicultural society, and she started getting trolled by the far right, by the whites, by white supremacists. It got so bad that the police advised her to stay away from open windows. The way that Dia responded was to move to the United States and try to get to know white supremacists. She was at Charlottesville walking with them, not marching with them, but walking with them, big difference, and she offered them a safe space to feel heard. Now, this sounds insane, right? They should be giving her a safe space to feel heard. Yeah, but that's never gonna happen, and that's part of the problem. And I've t- I talked to Dia after George Floyd, I talked to her after January 6th, I talked to her after all of these sort of big events, and she said to me, "You're not gonna like my answer," but in all the research that she's done with jihadis and white supremacists and all of it, in every circumstance, she says, "The victim has to go first."
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Because the quote unquote "oppressor" will never go first. They will never do it. And so what she did, and she made a documentary called White Right: Meeting the Enemy, you can go watch it happen, you can see it. She doesn't agree with them, she doesn't affirm their beliefs, but she offers them a safe space to feel heard. And then over the course of time, something happens. You see the transformation. They can no longer reconcile their racist points of view with the fact that they now trust this woman and consider her a friend.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And one by one they drop out of the movement.And so if there is a boss who is a bad boss, or a friend who's a bad friend, or a partner who's a bad partner, you can play the victim and you can wait and wait and wait for them to do the right thing. Which, should they? Yeah, they should. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's your boss, they should know better. They should be the one that comes and says, "Hey, it's not working out. Let's, can we co- have a conversation? All this tension, I'd like to lean into the tension." "You're with a partner. I'd like to lean, we've been tense for the past three weeks, I'd like to lean into it." Yeah. Yeah, they should. They won't, either because they don't care, they don't know, they don't have the skills, they're embarrassed, they're afraid. Who knows what the reasons are. Only f- a few times it's 'cause they hate you and they want to hurt you. Most of the times it's obliviousness, fear, lack of skills. And so yeah, you're the one who has to go, and this is where the accountability comes in. You're gonna have to walk in and be like, "Hey, here's the story I'm telling myself. I feel like you hate me." You don't say, "You hate me!" That's an accusation. "I feel. I feel like you hate me. And there's a few things, and maybe I'm looking for the evidence because I'm really sensitive right now, but let me tell you the three things that make me feel like you hate me. And I want to put it on the table, because I don't want to hate you and I don't want us to fail. And I don't know how to have this conversation, but I want to put it on the table." That is a human skill, and those are the skills we're lacking. Those are the skills we're lacking. And t- the, the, the, the, the only reason to want to learn those skills is because we take accountability for the people that we are. I can't control anything in this world. I can't control how people treat me. I can't control world, world events. I can't control politics. I can't control natural disasters. I have zero control over any of that. So I can sit around and wait for the world to look after me, and sometimes I'll get lucky and sometimes I'll get, I'll get unlucky, you know? Things have gone my way by no talent of my own, and things have gone badly no matter how much I tried. Before we continue, I've been drinking AG1 every morning for years now, and it just got even better. AG1 Next Gen keeps the same simplicity, one scoop once per day, but now comes with four clinical trials backing it. In those trials, AG1 Next Gen was clinically shown to fill common nutrient gaps, improve key nutrient levels within three months, and increase healthy gut bacteria by 10 times, even in healthy adults. Basically, they've upgraded the formula with better probiotics, more bioavailable nutrients, and clinical validation. Plus, it's still NSF certified for sport, so even Olympic athletes can use it. AG1 genuinely care about holistic health, which is why I've got my mom to take it, my dad to take it, and tons of my friends too, and why I put it inside of my body every day. And if I found anything better, I would switch, but I haven't, which is why I still use it. And if you're still unsure, they've got a 90-day money back guarantee, so you can buy it and try it for three months. If you don't like it, they'll just give you your money back. Right now, you can get a year's free supply of vitamin D3, K2, and five free AG1 travel packs, plus that 90-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinkag1.com/modernwisdom. That's drinkag1.com/modernwisdom. So, part of not being a victim... There's the flip side as well, is you can't take full responsibility when things go right either. Mm-hmm. You can't mix your logics, right? I love talking to, like, finance people. I love talking to bankers, because when they make tons of money, they'll tell you it's 'cause they're geniuses. And if they lose tons of money, they'll tell you it's 'cause of the market conditions. You can't mix your logics. You're either lucky and unlucky or you're a genius and an idiot, but you can't mix the logics. And the same goes with ourselves. I can't take all the credit when things go right if I won't take some responsibility when things go wrong. I can either choose to say all of my success is dumb luck and all of my failures are bad luck, or I can say, "I work hard and I'm an idiot." Right? I, I can't mis- mix the logics. Um, you can pick which logic you want, I don't care. Uh, but you can't mix them. And I think this is part of what we're saying, which is, "I can choose to go through life lucky or unlucky." It's, it's a mode. You can choose to just walk through life, you know? I don't... It's not a criticism. Or you can choose to say, "No, no, no, I take responsibility that I, in some way, shape, or form contribute to the situation that I'm in and the feelings that I have. And even though I may not have been able to control the circumstances, I can control my reaction to those circumstances. Did I go off the handle? Did I attack somebody personally? Did I attack them versus their behavior?" We do that... That one is the easiest one to fix and the most common one we make, the co- common mistake we make. "You're a liar," versus, "You told me a lie." You attack someone's character, watch how they respond. They will come back with ferocity. If you say, "You told me a lie," you can actually have a conversation about that. It's a behavior. "You're a cheat. You cheated." I am not a cheat, but I did, I did cheat. Like, it's not my character.
- 35:45 – 44:04
Everyone Thinks They Are On The Side Of Good
- SSSimon Sinek
Remember, everybody thinks they're good. And this is the, this is the, this is the thing that I think people get wrong all the time, which is really funny, just to have these little awarenesses. Uh, I, I'll give you a great example. So, um, uh, do you remember the movie Inglourious Basterds? I never watched it. Oh. It's one of the greatest films ever made. I mean, I cannot recommend it enough. Christoph Waltz, who plays the Nazi, he plays the main Nazi, it put him on the map. He was this obscure Austrian actor, and then this movie made him an international star and I think he won an Oscar for it actually. Um, he's brilliant in it.... he's chillingly brilliant, how good he is in this-- in this Nazi role, right? And he's relaxed and he's got a sense of humor. He doesn't play this caricature of evil.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
You know? That's one of the reasons he's so chilling. He's so good at it. So he was on a talk show when the movie-- when he was promoting the movie, and the host asks him, "What did you have to do as an actor to play evil so effectively?" And he's-- you literally look-- he's got this look of total confusion on his face. He doesn't understand the question. He goes, "What?" And the host says again, "You were so good, what did you have to source yourself from to play evil? You were so scary." And he looks at the host and he goes, "He wasn't evil." And this is why he was so good at his role, because what he understood is no one thinks they're evil. Everyone thinks they're on the side of good. Everyone thinks they're on the side of good, and we look at our political discourse these days, it's fricking hilarious. Everybody's accusing each other of being evil and bad, but both sides, if you talk to them, actually think that they're trying to do good. Both sides are on the side of good, and if you just remember that, that people think they're on the side of good, now they may be misdirected and all of those things are still true, but everybody thinks they're on the side of good. If you just start with that basic knowledge, how we interact is very different, where we no longer seek to criticize because you're evil, that's my judgment, but I seek to understand where you're sourcing that good from. And curiosity is a great way to interact with human beings with whom we disagree.
- CWChris Williamson
Isn't it interesting that we are better at giving advice to other people than we are to ourselves? You know, a little bit of time spent refining our... Are we in the advice giving mode or in the listening mode?
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, learning to have a mindfulness gap and-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... being able to sit with silence and all of this other stuff, that is a skill that I think most people can develop really well for a friend.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, I think so.
- CWChris Williamson
That is a skill that I think most people will really struggle to develop for themselves.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah, I think that's true too. Um, and you make a good point, which is, are you a good friend to yourself? My friend Rick, who's sort of this remarkable entrepreneur monk, not literally, but he's just one of the coolest sort of advice givers I know, I was talking to him about loneliness, and I asked him point blank, "Do you ever get lonely? Do you ever feel lonely?" And he smiled and said, "No. I'm always with myself." He's cultivated such a beautiful relationship with himself-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
... that he allows himself to have all the things, all the feels.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you know Dry Creek Dwayne? Do you know who that is?
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-mm.
- CWChris Williamson
He's a rancher and wrangler from Wyoming, uh, big beard, permanently affixed with a cigar between his fingers.
- SSSimon Sinek
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
And, uh, I had him on the show about the back end of last year, and, uh, we were talking about something not too dissimilar, and he said, "I like me. I'd buy me a beer."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It was just such a simple way-
- SSSimon Sinek
I love that.
- CWChris Williamson
... to put across, "I'd buy me a beer." And it took a long time. You know, he's in his 60s now.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, and it took him a long time to cultivate in himself the sort of person he would want to be friends with.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And if you're the kind of person who regularly makes promises and doesn't keep them to you-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... if you're the sort of person who places the opinions of others over the opinion of yourself, you're an untrustworthy ally-
- SSSimon Sinek
You're a bad friend.
- CWChris Williamson
... to yourself.
- 44:04 – 53:40
Reverse Frankl Law & How Maslow Got It Wrong
- SSSimon Sinek
- CWChris Williamson
Let's have a look.
- SSSimon Sinek
Let's have a look.
- CWChris Williamson
I wanted to, uh, give you, uh, a read an essay that I wrote last week-
- SSSimon Sinek
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
...that I, that I thought might be interesting to you, and it relates to something we've been talking about so far. Lots of people that consume work like yours, listen to shows like this, um, many of them would identify as something like an insecure overachiever-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
...I think. Somebody that's very introspective, they ruminate, they like to improve themselves, they're growth-minded, they're upward aiming. Uh, and I think they sometimes focus on, uh, working hard, eh, the, almost a Puritan work ethic-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
...would be the way that they, they approach life.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
So, there's a famous Viktor Frankl f- quote, "When a man can't find a deep sense of meaning, they distract themselves with pleasure." Frankl is arguing that a lack of meaning causes people to seek temporary relief in superficial pursuits rather than addressing the underlying existential void. Perhaps for many, maybe even most people, this is a big issue, but there is another group who suffer with the opposite problem, Frankl's inverse law: When a man can't find a deep sense of pleasure, they distract themselves with meaning. If ease, grace, joy, and playfulness don't come easily to you, one solution is to just ignore moment-to-moment happiness entirely and always pursue hard things. You become a world champion at winning the marshmallow test. You convince yourself that delayed gratification in perpetuity is noble because you struggle to ever feel grateful. TLDR, you prioritize meaning over happiness because happiness doesn't come easily to you. As my friend Bill Perkins says, "Delayed gratification in the extreme results in no gratification." Or Alan Watts, "If we are unduly absorbed in improving our lives, we may forget altogether to live them." Everyone is taught that on the other side of discomfort is something valuable. We're told that worthwhile things are difficult to attain, because if they weren't difficult to attain, they wouldn't be worthwhile. This is how non-valuable but difficult things get slipped into our desires without us noticing. Some people are hyper-responders to this instruction and go on to become workaholics and insecure overachievers. From the outside, this looks like you've transcended the shallow need for pleasure, but in reality, it's just cope to avoid facing the fact that you struggle to feel joy. So instead, you perpetually promise yourself that happiness might finally come tomorrow, but like running toward the horizon, tomorrow never arrives. Congratulations, you've managed to subjugate your joy as a tribute to your work. Do not confuse humorless and fun-lacking seriousness with being sophisticated and caring about your pursuit. Thoreau says, "The price of anything is the amount of life that you exchange for it," and by this logic, many of us are paying into a bank account that we never withdraw from. I think with this, Olympic champion, the LeBron James of winning the marshmallow test-
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
...uh, I wonder how many people are bypassing more simple day-to-day joy because it feels, originally it was hard for them to access and now it feels flimsy, unsophisticated, uh, th- this is, this is, uh, I, I should be aiming for something higher than this.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, and I wonder how many, uh, people can be fulfilled with much simpler pleasures than the ones that they're, uh, pursuing delayed gratification to try and achieve.
- SSSimon Sinek
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it's very well said and very well written. Um, look, I think the, uh, that bo- both are true, right? At the, at the end of the day, and you and I were talking about this off, off camera before we started, which is there's a paradox to being human, which is, and this is where, this is where, uh, Maslov and his hierarchy of needs ... Maslov got it wrong, and it speaks to what you're speaking about, right? Maslov's hierarchy of needs, people, you know, the basic level of the triangle, of the pyramid is food and shelter, that we need food and shelter first. The third level up is relationships, and then the top is self-actualization, right? But he's wrong, because Maslov made the classic mistake which is he forgot that there's a paradox to being human, which is every moment of every day we are both individuals and members of groups. Every day. And every day we're confronted with small or big c- uh, choices. Do I put myself first at the sacrifice of the group or do I put the group first at the sacrifice of myself? And we can debate which one you're supposed to do, and the answer is you're both right and you're both wrong. It's a paradox, because we have to be ourselves and pursue our own purpose, but we're also supposed to be social animals and contribute to the society, the family, the, the team that we're a part of.... go. And you're saying the same thing here, which is, and this is where Maslow got it wrong. He only thought about us as individuals. I've, right? As an individual on a desert island, you're right, food and shelter comes first. You know, relationships, I'll deal with that later. But can you imagine living a whole life for self-actualization? How lonely. What about shared actualization?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
I've never heard of anybody dying because they were hu- uh, I've never heard of anybody dying by suicide because they were hungry. I've heard of people dying by suicide because they were lonely. So that means relationships, as a member of a group, is more important than food and shelter. If you consider us members of groups, not just individuals. And it's both. And I think you're saying the same thing here. It's not a debate of do I put happiness ahead of purpose or purpose ahead of happiness? The answer is it's both, and it's messy and sometimes competitive, but there's entire camps. You know, you have the, on the extreme, the hedonists that say, "No, happiness in the moment, purpose be damned, we're all gonna die."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And on the other end, you're like, "No, no, longevity, purpose. What's it all mean at the expense..." And the answer is yes and. It's both. And I think this is where we've made this mistake, and we keep doing this in our lives. We make, uh, uh, we make complex arguments binary, and then we choose one, and we attempt to build lives around one pillar when the reality is it's both. And sometimes it'll be in balance and sometimes it'll be out of balance. And I think to let go, and you're a h- I think what, the way you construct it is, is, is, is right. You have the insecure high performer, but you also have the insecure low performer, right? And the question is, okay, so what does the secure high performer look like? And I would argue that the secure high performer is not following the game plan that these people are following of grow, grow, grow, retreat, retreat, retreats, you know, off to Costa Rica again, you know? Uh, read every book, do every practice, take every supplement, you know, wake up at 5:00 in the morning, cold plunge, cold plunge, right? Um, you talk to the happiest people in the world, they do some of that. They don't do all of it. They all have great relationships. And so I wish people would pay as much attention to how they show up for their friends as they do to which supplements they take...
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
... how many hours of sleep they're getting, whether they're cold plunging or not, or what their exercise regime is. I wish they would pay that much attention to the kind of friend they are, to the kind of partner they are. That would find balance. Even like the blue zones, like everybody's obsessed with like, look at their diet, look, they walk every day. They also convene and eat with their friends every single day, and they have senses of humor, and they're okay with being underachievers, right? Like, and I think, and I think you're right. You, you talked about gratitude. Gratitude is a big part of it, right? Which is just, just be grateful what, for what you have. Like, what if you, everybody's chasing some sort of finish line, but what if you just today just made the decision, 'cause they're all decisions, I've already won. I've already won. That's it. I'm alive. I've got one good friend. I've got one p- I, I am sure everyone of us can find something in our lives that we like. I got a great score on my video game yesterday. Really happy about that. Like, it can be something stupid and mundane, but something that you're a little bit proud of, even if it's a little bit embarrassing. Like, I like that pair of jeans, right?I went on a good date. Whatever it is, right? Things are okay. And this idea of already thinking of yourself as having won the game and the rest of life is simply, it's all after the finish line.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's anything you wanna do after the finish line. Go have, go have a good time. And, um, somebody gave me that advice, uh, my friend Rick. He said, "What if you just decided you won already?" And I was like, "Oh my God, everything's great." You know?
- CWChris Williamson
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- 53:40 – 1:04:19
Success Is Learning Failure Can Be A Good Thing
- CWChris Williamson
- SSSimon Sinek
Um, uh, this idea of what does it be, what does it mean to be a success? I, I went through this recently where I think one of the reasons I, I tend to find peace in things is I'm, I'm not competing with anybody else but myself. There's always somebody smarter. There's always somebody who's s- sold more books. You know, there's always some- Like, you read that statement and I sat here and went, "Wow, that is beautiful. Wow. That is great. That is..." And didn't think, "Oh, I should have come up with that. Oh my God, he said it better than me. Ugh, I have to be the one that comes with this..." No, that was freaking gorgeous. Thank you for sharing. Wow, right? Like, but by thinking to myself that I have already won, I'm not in competition with you and what you've written.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
If I think that I haven't won yet, then I sit here and seethe, maybe get competitive.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And so I had this, I had a, it was a disagreement, um, with somebody recently where, um-... our team missed a goal, pretty significantly. Hmm, and that's okay, right? Like, I think goals are important like mile markers are important, but they're not the end all, be all. It's not the end of the game, just measurement of speed and distance. And we had a five-year plan, and we missed the first year goal to- so we're off plan now, right? And so one of my colleagues wanted to change the second year goal, make it lower. I said, "Well, why would we ch- why would we do that?" "Well," she said, "because we're not gonna hit the second year goal." I'm like, "I know, 'cause we missed the first year goal. But if we d- if we change the second year goal, that- that means you're changing the whole five-year goal just 'cause we missed year one? How about we just work harder, be more creative, and find new ways? And maybe we'll miss the second year goal, but man, we can keep trying. No, we're not changing the goal. Why would you want to change it?" And she said, "Because I don't like to fail, and I know you don't either." And that's when I realized she's wrong. I'm totally fine being a failure. In fact, I came to the realization that most of my life is a failure. And what I mean by that is- is my desires and my ambitions are greater than my talents or my achievements. Like, I want to do things in the world that I don't know how to do them. The reality is I'm probably not gonna do them. And the things that I've accomplished, like, they're- they're coming close to what I want to achieve, but I haven't gotten there, and I may not. And a couple things have gone well that I planned, but most of the things fell short. And so I've been very comfortable being a failure, meaning I'm comfortable falling short of big goals, and I would rather fall short of a big goal and consider myself a failure than lower the goals to the level which I can accomplish all of them just so I can feel like I'm a success. Mm-hmm. And it's less about the goal setting, and it's more about the mindset of being okay being the failure. Because what it does is it frees you to imagine bigger, take risks like you never imagined you could before, because failure is not the thing you're afraid of. Um... You know, that entrepreneurial mindset, anybody who starts a business is an idiot. You have an over 90% chance of failure. Why would you do that? 'Cause their vision is bigger, their ambition is bigger than their skills or- or their accomplishments. Um, and if you're okay with that, you actually have a good time. And so I've been through it where I'm depressed when I realize I haven't achieved something, and I feel like a failure. Mm-hmm. And I feel like a failure. And now I'm just cool with it. And like... And it's not f- false modesty or rev- it's a- it's a- it's a hack. It's a mental little trick. Like even, like, we- we- I'm trying something new at- that work, and I said to the team, "This could be a wild success or a total failure, I don't know, but let's have a blast and find out which one." Now, you and I sitting, listening to this going, "Well, that seems like a pretty good mentality for the success side, having fun." Yeah. Low stress. And by the way, it absolutely might fail, but the team is like, "All right, well, it's on us, and we're all taking a bet on ourselves." Not each other. Like, yeah, well, and each other, but, like, the point is is we all see ourselves as contributors, and it goes back to right back to what we were saying before, which is do you want to be a victim and wait things to happen or do you want to be a contributor? And if it fails, you'll be like, "Oh ho-ho, we screwed that up." And I think so much of this is mindset. So much of this is mindset. I just watched the thing yesterday. So funny how things show up at the right time, right? I just watched the thing yesterday where a guy compared the top five tennis players, do you know about this? Compared the top five tennis players from the top 25 tennis players. So what makes the top five so much better than all the others? And he goes through the list. Is it their diet? Is it their coaching? Is it their work ethic? No, no, they all have that, right? And he literally goes through all the lists of what it could be, and it's none of those things. The one thing that the top five have that the others don't is- is that when they score a point, they go, "That's fun. I love this g- I love this game. I love this game." When they miss a point, they go like, "Oh, I missed that one, but wait till you see what I do in the next one." And there's sort of a joy and love of what they're doing, and a- and a success or failure, their mindset in the moment. And what he found is that when they have that sort of joy, "Oh, I love this game when it goes well. Don't worry, you'll get the next one," their heart rate goes down. And if you keep adding all up those little... So when you have your heart rate goes down, you have more, you preserve energy, you're more relaxed. For one point or two points, it means nothing, but if you s- now go to the end of the match, all those little things you've now stored up, you have way more energy at the end and you're way more relaxed to- to play each point. And that's life. I think it's a great metaphor, which is all of this is infinite. It's all 1% better. It's all the British cycling team that- that James Clear writes about, you know? That just, this stupid little thing but- that by itself means nothing. And I'll give you an example, right? Go back to relationships. Like, how do you find love? Like, how do you- how do you get someone to love you? Do you buy them flowers on Valentine's Day and make sure to get them a cake on their birthday? Sure, those things are nice. Won't make them love you. It's the millions of innocuous little things that by themselves do nothing, that when you wake up in the morning, you say good morning before you check your phone.... that when you go to the fridge to get a drink, you're like, "Hey, babe, you want a drink?" And you bring them one. Or you write them a little card for no reason than to say, "Hey, I wrote this card just to tell you thank you. I'm glad you're in my life." By themselves, each one of those things does very, very little. But if you add them up over time, someone will fall in love with you. And the same thing will happen to you. And this is the great thing about love, is you never know when it happens. It's not like if you do these things on this date at this time, love is the reaction. You just... I don't know. It happens at some point, and nobody ever sees it coming. Now, treat joy and life that way. There's no date. There's no back plan. You have to trust. It's like exercise, right? Which if you say, "Simon, I want to get into shape, can you teach me how?" I'm like, "Absolutely I can. I want you to work out every single day for 20 minutes. You're gonna have to do upper body, lower body, core. You're gonna have to do all these." You say, "Well, where should I start?" "Yes, doesn't matter. Pick one. Whatever one you wanna do. But eventually, you're gonna have to do them all, and you have to work out every day for 20 minutes." "Well, can I take a day off 'cause I'm tired?" "Yes." "How many days can I take off?" "I don't know, but not too many." 100% of the time, you will get into shape. Everybody will. Some people a little sooner, some people a little later. "Simon, what's the date and time that I will be in shape?" "I don't know, and neither does any doctor, but you trust the process." We all know that that 20 minutes every day, 100% of people will have 100% success. How many things in life can you say that about? Well, I think that living our lives and finding joy is exactly the same. Which is, if you can trust the process of little things, that the big retreat and the big this and the big that and the moving across the country, those things are good, those things are helpful.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
That's called intensity. Like, going to the dentist twice a year is intensity, but if that's all you do, all your teeth will fall out. It's the consistency of brushing your teeth every day, that even though brushing your teeth once does nothing, if you do it every single day, it works. And so yes, go on the retreats, have fun, but those aren't the things. It's the consistency. And I think that's where we miss out.
- CWChris Williamson
The original name for this podcast when I was brainstorming, uh, was Crushing a Tuesday. Glad that went with Modern Wisdom, but Crushing a Tuesday is an idea from Tim, and he says your life is made up of ordinary Tuesdays. So your goal should be to construct your life in a manner that an ordinary Tuesday gets crushed, that you do well, that it moves you in the right direction, that you enjoy it, that it's positively rewarding. It's like, ah, what a cool idea, that life is made up of very normal Tuesdays.
- SSSimon Sinek
I, I don't know the concept that he talks about, but the way you've described it, I would actually push back a little bit.
- CWChris Williamson
Why?
- SSSimon Sinek
What if you don't crush the Tuesday? What if you sit and watch TV all day and get nothing done? Are you a failure? Has it... Have you not crushed Tuesday? Should you be depressed and do double effort on Wednesday? Or maybe watching TV all day and being a vegetable is crushing Tuesday.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
So that's the problem with words like Crushing Tuesday, which is that it, it doubles down on achievement, it doubles down on productivity. And
- 1:04:19 – 1:10:41
How To Stop Feeling Guilty When You Take A Day Off
- SSSimon Sinek
I, I learned this, I, I, uh, this goes back many years, and I would wake up on a Sunday, wake up a f- you know, pretty early, just, just when I woke up, and then I would sit in bed and do I have no idea what until noon. And the guilt. And then somebody'd be like, "What..." You know, I'd see somebody in the afternoon, they're like, "So, uh, wha- how was your day? What'd you do today?" 'Cause it's 3 o'clock in the afternoon, right? And I'd be like, "Uh..." And I had this tremendous shame that I sat in bed until noon. And this went on for a while, and I thought myself lazy, and I would do stupid stuff. Yeah, I'd read the newspaper a little bit, but I'd play games, maybe go get a cup of coffee, come back into bed, you know? And then I realized, it's my Sunday, I can do whatever the hell I want with my Sunday. I love sitting in bed till noon on a Sunday. And if somebody's like, "What'd you do today?" I'm like, "I sat in bed till noon." "What'd you do?" "Don't remember. Don't know. Couldn't tell you. Nothing worthwhile."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
And it's just what gave me, what, what gave me the relaxation and recharged my batteries was not sitting in bed until noon. What gave me relaxation and recharged my batteries was liking that I sat in bed until noon.
- CWChris Williamson
Not being in tension against it. Yeah. Well, that's crushing a Sunday, you know?
- SSSimon Sinek
(laughs) Ag- again, but this is the problem with our vernacular in the modern day.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Which are, these words remind us, crush. These are achievement words.
- CWChris Williamson
Grind, hustle.
- SSSimon Sinek
Grind, hustle. Br-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah. And that's the problem. The words matter.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
How about love a Tuesday?
- CWChris Williamson
Winning a Tuesday.
- SSSimon Sinek
No.
- CWChris Williamson
No?
- SSSimon Sinek
No.
- CWChris Williamson
Loving a Tuesday.
- SSSimon Sinek
Enjoy a Tuesday. Love a Tuesday.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- SSSimon Sinek
Have a Tuesday. You know?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SSSimon Sinek
Survive Tuesday.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- SSSimon Sinek
Get through Tuesday.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah.
- SSSimon Sinek
Right? Like, winning, like all of these binary, win/loss, crush/fail, you know? There, that's the problem is the binary. We're going right back to that problem again of those, those constructions that you talked about in your eloquent essay. It's not binary.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- SSSimon Sinek
It's messy.
- CWChris Williamson
I wanted to just loop back-
- 1:10:41 – 1:22:38
Don’t Confuse Your Goals With Life Purpose
- CWChris Williamson
When it comes to the purpose and meaning point, how do you advise people to manage the transition if a why that previously motivated them and fulfilled them starts to fall away? You mentioned yourself, there's this sort of sense of shame-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... guilt, of concern-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, a wistfulness, I would imagine. Like, "This used to be my thing-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... and now you're telling me that the thing that gave me loads of positive reinforcement isn't my thing anymore."
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"And I have to go and find a new thing? That sounds pretty terrifying." So how do people who have lost-
- SSSimon Sinek
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... fulfillment in their why cope with that transition?
- SSSimon Sinek
Very simple answer. That was never their why to begin with. People confuse goals with purpose. It happens all the time. You see it in company vision statements, "To be the best." That's not a vision, that's a goal. By the way, based on what metric that you chose (laughs) , right? So sometimes we have goals that drive us and they're exciting, but then what? And you see this very often with high achievers. So let's take extreme examples, right? Olympic athletes. Let's just an extreme example. They're very goal-oriented and they've confused their goal with their purpose. "My purpose is to win the Olympics." I love how they say that. "I'm gonna win the..." Nobody wins the Olympics. That actually is not a... It's not a... You can't... There's no medal for winning the Olympics, right? But that's how they all talk, "I'm gonna win the Olympics," right? Um, and all of their lives are completely architected around this goal. All of their relationships. Are you useful? All of their sacrifices, "I missed Thanksgiving, I missed birthdays, I missed all of these things because I'm disciplined." And let's say they achieve it. Let's, let's give them the success. They win a gold medal in the Olympics and now they're too old to compete. Their bodies are broken, whatever it is. Now what? Now what? And what you find, like Andre Agassi becomes the most storied tennis player in all time. What happens right after he retires? Depression. Michael Phelps becomes the most medaled Olympian in history. What happens right after he retires? Depression. You know, uh, my friend who her entire goal of her entire life from Fargo or North Dakota was to be on Broadway and become a New York City Rockette. She achieved both those things. She became a New York City Rockette, and she became a performer on Broadway. What happened right afterwards when she retired? Depression. We've ach- we've confused a goal with purpose.A goal is one of the ways, even if it's extreme, one of the ways in which we are looking to advance our purpose, but a purpose is im- immutable. A purpose does not change. Your purpose is fully formed by the time you're in your mid to late teens. Who you are is fully formed by the time you're in your mid to late teens, and the rest of your life is looking for opportunities to bring that l- that cause to life. Right? Um, very common, and particularly in high achievers. And they confuse their jobs with their purpose, with their identity, right? So you see, they, uh, these high-flyers who literally are afraid of not working, because, "Who am I if I'm not doing this thing?" And they've forgotten that the thing you're doing is just one of the ways you can bring your purpose to life. So, so my why, my purpose is not to write books. My why is not to achieve some goal, some TED Talk over which I have no control. My why is to inspire people to do things that inspire them. That's why I get out of bed in the morning. That is permanent for the rest of my life till the day I die. Now, what are the opportunities that I can do that? Some of them big, some of them small. Some of them risky, some of them not. And I can have goals that motivate me in the middle of that, but if I pick a goal that's just for the money or just for the accomplishment or whatever, odds are, the stress is gonna be far greater than the reward, because it doesn't contribute to my purpose. And that's ... raises the second question, which is, how do I know when to quit? And some people have this false belief that grit is the thing that makes you, and you never quit. That's stupid. Just as it as stupid, it- it is just as stupid as to say you always quit whenever it gets difficult. Both are the wrong mentality. My test is very simple. Does the sacrifice feel worth it? If the sacrifice feels worth it, because there's some higher goal you're trying to achieve, some higher purpose, not even goal, a higher purpose you're trying to achieve, then you better show up the grit and you keep going. But if it just doesn't feel worth it anymore, it doesn't feel like I'm contributing to something bigger than myself, then it's time to move on. Mm-hmm. I was writing a book called Leaders Eat Last. It's the single most difficult thing I've ever done in my life. It was impossible to organize. Each, each chapter could've been its own book. It was ridiculous, the amount of content that I was ... Like, Start With Why was something like, I can't remember, like 68,000 words or something. When I was writing Leaders Eat Last, I wrote 150,000 words when I was just getting started. I called up the publisher. I said, "I think this needs to be multi-volumes." Like, that's, I mean, it was impossible. And it got to the point where I couldn't do it. It just, I, I, I, and I, I, it, I couldn't, I couldn't figure it out. And so it was about 8:00 at night, and I decided I was done. I couldn't do it. I was gonna quit. And I literally went for a long walk and planned my exit, planned quitting. I went through the checklist of the things that I'm gonna have to do over the next few days in order to unwind from this project. I'm gonna have to call my publisher and say, "I, I can't do it." I'm technically in breach of contract, which means I'm gonna have to return the advance. Um, I'm gonna have to make a public statement. I've been telling everybody, "I'm writing a new book!" And I'm gonna have to say, "It's not coming," so I'll be publicly humiliated for a short period of time where people are like, "What do you mean?" They're like, "We've been looking forward to it. Why can't you do it?" Right? So I'm gonna be publicly humiliated. I'm gonna have to tell my friends I can't do it, so I'm gonna be privately humiliated. I'm gonna hate myself for a while. I'm gonna regret it, and I'll get over it. I literally went through the checklist of all the things I'm gonna have to do and prepare myself for. Not sure why I did, but I picked up the phone and called a friend of mine, who at the time was in the Air Force Special Forces. I don't even think I said hello. He picked up the phone, and I said, "What do you do when you can't complete the mission?" And as is his nature, he started telling me a story. He was in Afghanistan, and he was ordered to go on a mission, he's a helicopter pilot, where all of the intelligence said that they were gonna get shot down. And this wasn't like a Kill Hitler mission where you're all gonna die but you'll kill Hitler. This is like, you're all gonna die and the mission will fail. Like, it was just a pointless suicide mission, right? All the intel was, was compelling. And so he and his wingman, they're prepping their helicopter, getting ready to go on this ridiculous, stupid mission. And his wingman turns to him and says, "What do we do? We've got wives. We got kids. This is literally a suicide mission. Like, do we refuse to go? What do we do?" And my friend said to his wingman, "No. This is what we signed up for. We go." And what he was saying is, "We go together." Um, obviously cooler heads prevailed and the mission was scrubbed. And so he says to me, "Is this book more or less powerful than Start With Why?" I said, "The research that I'm doing has impacted me more than Start With Why." He goes, "Okay, I'm gonna tell you a funny little story," he goes, "Before I met you, I became disillusioned with the Air Force. I didn't want to be in it anymore and I was gonna leave, and I found this kooky little book called Start With Why, and it completely inspired me and made me a better leader, and I stuck to the, I stayed in the Air Force, and I am so glad I did because I'm, I'm, I'm better than I was before. And if you're telling me that this book is more powerful than the first one," he goes, "you have to finish it." He goes, "This is what you signed up for. You do it." And what he was saying is, "And I will be here with you." He made me feel not alone, but he also reminded me that it wasn't about the book. The book was contributing to something even bigger than myself, which is, I agreed that I would commit myself to a life where I would work tirelessly to tie- to inspire people to do things that inspire them. And if this is one of the things that I know will work, this is what I signed up for. The sacrifice is worth it. Mm.And I wasn't alone anymore. I now had somebody I could call and be like, "I can't do this." And he's like, "Come on. I gotcha." And this is the thing that I learned about folks in the military, which is our friends give it advice, give us advice like, "You got this. Yeah, you go," which is basically like saying, "Off you go." In the military, it's things like, "We go." Even though I have to do the work, we go. I had another experience in the military where I was standing on the stage presenting to a bunch of officers, senior officers, generals and colonels, and I was telling a story that was really difficult, and I started to well up. And I'm starting to tell myself, "Should I just skip over this?" I could easily just... And I was stuck. I- I paused because, you know, when you- when you're welling up, you- you know that if you take one more word, you're gonna lose it. And I was right there. I was at that word. And I just stopped quietly. Now, if this was in the private sector, 'cause I know, 'cause it's happened, it's happened for you too, somebody will say, "It's okay. Take your time." As if to say, "You go over there, you- you take whatever... We'll be- we'll be waiting over here when you're ready." That's not what happened. I s- get stuck on the stage. I'm welling up with tears, and the four-star general at the back of the room goes, "Go on." As if to say, "We're here with you, you're not alone." It cracks me up just talking about it now. And this is what I learned about them. The reason they are high achievers, the reason they have the kind of grit that they do, the reason they do things that most of us don't want to do or can't do, is because at no point do they ever make each other feel like they're alone. At every point along the way, they know that someone has their six, someone has their back. They will sacrifice their lives for people they don't even like because they know that that person will sacrifice their lives for them. And I think this is the th- this is the missing thing that we don't talk about enough in all of this high achievement stuff and finding your purpose stuff. It's too hard to do alone. Human bei- human beings aren't made to survive by ourselves. You go out into the wilderness by yourself, you'll get eaten by something, you will die. Go out in a group, you're fine. We're fine. We are social animals. And we spend so much time over-indexing on individual accomplishment and indivilachie- individual achievement and individual happiness and individual fulfillment. We've- we've- we've just overdone it. That we've forgotten that the hack is together. Friendship is the ultimate biohack. And if you want to find happiness, instead of going on another retreat or reading another book, what I would recommend is help someone who's struggling with the thing that you're struggling with. Commit yourself to a life of service to help somebody who's struggling with the exact same thing you're struggling with, and instead of over-committing yourself to whatever you're struggling with, over-commit yourself to helping them find whatever it is that you're also looking for, with no selfish intent whatsoever.
- 1:22:38 – 1:36:03
Reflecting On The “Millennial Question” 10 Years Later
- SSSimon Sinek
Episode duration: 1:43:44
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