Who Actually Runs the US Government? – Bernie Sanders

Chris Williamson 0:00 I read something recently that I wanted to get your thoughts on. "The left's greatest enemy is not the right, but the hard left. The right's greatest enemy is not the left, but the hard right. The lunatics of your own side make you look much sillier than the opposition ever could."

Bernie Sanders 0:14 All right, maybe. But what I am most interested in right now is not left or right. Uh, what I am focusing on right now is that in an unprecedented way in American history, we have more income and wealth inequality, more concentration of ownership, more billionaire control over the media and our political system than we've ever had in the history of the United States. And you add all that together, that's what's called oligarchy. And that's the fight that I am engaging in right now. We should not be living in a nation where so few have so much wealth and power while at the same time, Chris, you got in the richest country on Earth, 60% of our people, got it? 60% are living paycheck to paycheck. They're struggling to pay for healthcare, for childcare, for education. Housing is off the charts. M- Very few young people can afford to buy their own homes. And parents are having a hard time even affording to buy decent quality food for their kids. That's the reality I'm focusing on right now.

Chris Williamson 1:17 What's the story of how we got here?

Bernie Sanders 1:19 Good question. Uh, here's a sta- Let me throw out a statistic and we can go from there. In the last 52 years, you got it? Go back to 1973, all right?

Chris Williamson 1:32 Mm-hmm, you would have been 31. Yeah.

Bernie Sanders 1:34 All right.

Chris Williamson 1:34 Yeah.

Bernie Sanders 1:34 I would have been i- Right. There has been an explosion in technology, correct?

Chris Williamson 1:40 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 1:40 Explosion in worker productivity. So how is the average worker doing with all of that increase in worker productivity and technology? They doing really much better now than they did back in the early '70s? No. In fact, real inflation accounted for weekly wages for the average American worker is lower today than it was back then. That's an extraordinary statistic. And at the same time, according to the Rand Corporation, we are seeing a $75 trillion transfer of wealth. Okay, you with me? From the bottom 90% to the top 1%. So what you have seen throughout that period is the very wealthiest people becoming much wealthier, all of the gains of worker productivity, increased worker productivity, et cetera, going to the people on top. And today, tens of millions of working class families are struggling, uh, to put food on the table for their kids.

Chris Williamson 2:40 Mm. I want to show you a chart, uh, in a second. So this tracks the price of consumer goods and services over the last 25 years. Broadly speaking, prices have increased by about 74% since 2000, but the actual numbers vary wildly depending on what type of good or service it is. So consumer goods, toys, TVs have gotten-

Bernie Sanders 2:59 Housing, got housing in there?

Chris Williamson 3:00 Uh, consumer goods like toys and TVs have gotten over 50% cheaper. TVs are nearly 100% cheaper.

Bernie Sanders 3:05 Yep.

Chris Williamson 3:06 But critical categories like healthcare, education have skyrocketed by 200%. Housing is in there too. One potential interpretation is that the less legislation that you apply to an industry, the more the free market is allowed to take over, the cheaper that things become. Even new cars haven't got that much more expensive. So this is price changes, and you can see as you basically get to the top, there's more legislation put in and down to the bottom. What do you make of that?

Bernie Sanders 3:30 I don't. Uh... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 3:33 (laughs)

Bernie Sanders 3:33 Yeah, look, to me, when I look at the economy, I look at what does a family need to do well? Okay, let's just go through what are the basic needs of life?

Chris Williamson 3:42 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 3:43 All right, everybody, right, rich, poor, young, old needs healthcare, correct? In America, by the way, we probably spend three times more per person on healthcare than you do in the UK.

Chris Williamson 3:54 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 3:54 Okay?

Chris Williamson 3:55 What are the outcomes like?

Bernie Sanders 3:57 Uh, UK has its problems, but I think, it depends. I think... A- again, I'm talking off the top of my head, I don't think there's all that much difference. In terms of international outcomes, I don't know just the UK, the United States does not do particularly well. Uh, we spend twice as much per capita as the average OECD country. We live three or four years shorter lives. We have 85 million Americans who are uninsured or underinsured. Uh, we don't have enough doctors. Even if you have decent insurance, sometimes it's hard to find a doctor. Not enough dentists, not enough nurses. So we have a very broken and dysfunctional healthcare system. Bottom line, it is enormously expensive, and if Trump gets his way, by the way, what this shutdown is all about, it will become much more expen- So that's what the book that I wrote deals with, all right? Second of all, all right, so you got healthcare is a basic need. What else is a basic need? Housing.

Chris Williamson 4:46 Housing.

Bernie Sanders 4:46 Both of us would like to have a roof over our head. Now you tell me, somebody your age in the United States, average young person, how old are you?

Chris Williamson 4:54 37.

Bernie Sanders 4:54 All right, take me back to 35, 30 years of age, that person can afford a housing, housing in the United States? Not again. Amazingly enough, you know, when I was a kid, before all this technology and all this increased worker productivity, it was, you know, a young married couple could afford their own home. So the cost of housing is off the charts. Uh, it's not just that we have 800,000 people who are homeless in America. That's a tragedy. You got 20 million households who are spending over 50% of their limited income on housing, and that's insane. So you're spending 40, 50%, you don't have much left over for anything else. All right, so you got a healthcare disaster, housing disaster, what about education? You got a young kid? Do you have any kids?

Chris Williamson 5:38 No, not yet.

Bernie Sanders 5:39 All right. Well, as soon as you have a young kid and you look for childcare, you're going to find out it is very expensive, all right? Uh, you will find that if, uh, you know, you're gonna send your kid to college in the United States, very, very expensive. Uh, interestingly enough, way back before the '60s, do you know how much tuition cost in, in very good quality, uh, public colleges and universities in the United States?

Chris Williamson 6:03 I'm gonna guess like 10 grand.

Bernie Sanders 6:05 No, it was free. Like it was in the UK, by the way, right?

Chris Williamson 6:09 ... yeah.

Bernie Sanders 6:10 Your best-

Chris Williamson 6:10 Yeah, yeah.

Bernie Sanders 6:10 ... your great universities-

Chris Williamson 6:11 Yeah, yeah.

Bernie Sanders 6:11 ... they used to be free, right?

Chris Williamson 6:12 Yeah, I did two degrees in the UK and came out with less debt than one year of university education in America.

Bernie Sanders 6:18 There you go. All right. So, you got education, which is very expensive, and food is a whole other issue. You can get cheap food, but one of the crises we have in terms of healthcare is obesity in the United States-

Chris Williamson 6:30 Hmm.

Bernie Sanders 6:31 ... uh, leading to diabetes, other problems, and a lot of that has a lot to do with junk food, sugar, et cetera. Good quality food, go to the grocery store, look for organic, decent quality food, very expensive. All right. So, those are the basic necessities. Now, the flat screen TVs are cheaper, fantastic, good.

Chris Williamson 6:47 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 6:47 Cars, cheaper, good. That's all great. But in terms of the needs of the average American family, uh, it, in the richest count- and, and the point that I want to make, and I'll make it over and over again, why is this happening? This is the richest country in the history of the world, tens of millions of people should not be struggling to put food on the table or pay the rent while the people on top, the oligarchs, have never had it so good.

Chris Williamson 7:11 So, is it an increase in costs or a decrease in earnings?

Bernie Sanders 7:16 Uh, it is that over the last 50 plus years, earnings for the average American worker have been pretty stagnant.

Chris Williamson 7:25 Right.

Bernie Sanders 7:26 Okay.

Chris Williamson 7:26 But you- you understand my question, right? Because you have your outlay, which is determined-

Bernie Sanders 7:30 Right, right.

Chris Williamson 7:30 ... by the price of the things you're buying, and then you have your availability to spend that-

Bernie Sanders 7:33 Right, all right.

Chris Williamson 7:33 ... which is determined by how much you want.

Bernie Sanders 7:34 So, the problem essentially is wages have been stagnant.

Chris Williamson 7:38 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 7:39 Housing costs gone up.

Chris Williamson 7:40 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 7:41 Healthcare costs gone up, education costs gone up.

Chris Williamson 7:42 You're right on this- you're right on this chart as well-

Bernie Sanders 7:44 Of course-

Chris Williamson 7:44 ... I'm looking at food, food and beverage, and that's nearly 100% more than 2000.

Bernie Sanders 7:47 But it's only food, all right? Uh, I don't know what, you know, of course, the McDonald's has been going up or down-

Chris Williamson 7:54 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 7:54 ... but junk food is still reasonably cheap. But we do have a nutrition crisis in America, really we do.

Chris Williamson 8:01 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 8:01 And a lot of our kids are eating cheap junk food, which is going to impact their health. So, if we're talking about decent quality food, pretty expensive. So, you know, what this book that I wrote is about, and I hope people will read it, is asking questions I think we don't ask enough. And that is, again, why in the richest country in the history of the world we have so much income and wealth inequality, so many of our people are struggling, and why we have a political system which is also dominated by big money interest in both political parties.

Chris Williamson 8:35 What's the problem with consolidation of power? Typically, coming from the world that I used to come from, which was business, you get economies of scale. You centralize things, you don't have as many problems when it comes to communication, but it seems like in this situation, consolidation of power is an issue.

Bernie Sanders 8:51 Well, in some cases you have efficiencies, right? Due to scale. But on the other hand, when you have a handful of large corporations owning and controlling what is produced and engaging more or less in price fixing, uh, we got some serious problems. And I'll give you, in terms of concentration of ownership, today you have three major Wall Street, uh, e- firms, uh, BlackRock, State Street, uh, and Vanguard, that combined, when you combined the three of them, uh, are the major stockholders in 95% of American S&P corporations. That's a lot of power in the hands of very few people.

Chris Williamson 9:35 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 9:36 So, what we are talking about is not just income and wealth inequality, and I consider that to be a very serious issue, it is power. Power. You know, just yesterday I- I spoke in Washington DC to a couple of hundred thousand people as part of the No Kings rallies that took place all over America.

Chris Williamson 9:52 Main stage of Glastonbury.

Bernie Sanders 9:53 Pardon me?

Chris Williamson 9:54 Main stage of Glastonbury.

Bernie Sanders 9:55 Yeah. (laughs) And, uh, you know, the theme of the day is that in America, we took on the British a few years ago and saying, "No more kings." We don't... We want... What democracy is about is individuals, to as great a degree as possible, having the power to control their own lives. Not a president and not a bunch of oligarchs. And unfortunately, that's the direction we're moving in.

Chris Williamson 10:22 Mm-hmm. Something that we both agree on is that socialized healthcare should be available to everybody. What do you make of Marjorie Taylor Greene talking about fixing healthcare? I think this was a surprise to many.

Bernie Sanders 10:34 Well, it is. She is, look, she- her politics are like, you know, totally different than my politics. I- I don't know, I don't think I've ever met her. But I'll give her credit for at least having done what very few Republicans today are doing, having the guts to stand up to Republican leadership and Donald Trump. And one of the things that worries me about what's going on politically in the United States today, and this is a new phenomenon. (laughs) You know, when you got a Democrat president, Democrats rally around the Democrat, you got a Republican, Republicans rally around the Republican president. Nothing new about that. But what you're seeing today is almost the Stalinist type allegiance in the Republican Party, real fear that if you buck the president-

Chris Williamson 11:18 Hmm.

Bernie Sanders 11:18 ... you are in trouble, that Musk and his billionaire friends are going to primary you. I'll give you one example of this. Uh, there's a guy named Thom Tillis. I don't know if that name means anything to you.

Chris Williamson 11:27 Nope.

Bernie Sanders 11:28 Tillis is kind of your... He's a nice guy. He's- he's kind of average conservative Republican. So, when Trump's big beautiful bill, you're familiar with that, which I consider to be a terrible bill, uh, gets passed, uh, uh, is- is brought up, Tillis looks at the bill, he's from North Carolina, he looks at the bill and he says, "You know what? This is going to be a disaster for the people of North Carolina. Hundreds of thousands of people are going to lose their health insurance, costs are going to go up, I can't support this." This is a United States Senator running for re-election, okay? Within hours, Trump is all over social media denouncing this guy, billionaires are saying, "You're finished, we're going to primary you."

Chris Williamson 12:07 Hmm.

Bernie Sanders 12:07 And a day later, this guy says, "I'm out of here. I can't take this."

Chris Williamson 12:10 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 12:11 You know? So, what you have right now in the Republican Party-... is a cult of the individual where very few are prepared to differentiate themselves from Trump. And to her credit, uh, Marjorie Taylor Greene has been willing to do that.

Chris Williamson 12:30 Was there not a soft equivalent of that when you ran as well on the other side?

Bernie Sanders 12:34 There is, of course. And look, you know, I, the answer is in general, yes. But not, give you an example of that. Uh, you know, when Biden was president, Biden's a friend of mine, but his policies toward Netanyahu, uh, and to funding that horrific war in Gaza, which has caused so much destruction to the Palestinian people, I took him on. And I was out there, and this is a very important issue of foreign policy. And I took him on and along with others and said, "You know what, Mr. President? You're dead wrong. Stop funding the Netanyahu war machine which is causing so much death and destruction in Gaza." And on other issues we took him on. So in general, it's not surprising. You got a Democratic president, Democrats will support him, or Republicans. But this is new. This kind of, it reminds me, I don't know how familiar you are with this, you know, when Stalin was the leader of the USSR, you remember?

Chris Williamson 13:28 Yeah.

Bernie Sanders 13:29 And they used to have, he used to give a speech, and all these guys would stand up and they would applaud. And everyone looked around to see who would be-

Chris Williamson 13:37 No one would stop first.

Bernie Sanders 13:37 That's right (laughs) . Or you stop first, you know, you're in trouble right now, like Saddam Hussein. So it's kind of what you got. You got everyone has got to praise Trump. "Oh, he's great." "No, he's not great." "He's fantastic." "No, he's not fantastic." "He's the greatest gift to humanity. Give him a Nobel Prize to be the greatest human being in the history of the world." You know, and they keep going on and on and on and on. They're afraid. Anyone says anything critical, they are in trouble. The moneyed interests will go after them. They'll lose their next election.

Chris Williamson 14:02 Mm.

Chris Williamson 14:03 Do you think Trump would deserve a Nobel Peace Prize if this plan in the Middle East works?

Bernie Sanders 14:09 Look, thank God, well, we've got some not so good news literally today that the fighting seems to be erupting, and we all hope that peace is established. But no. You know, and I got to, I got to tell you something, Chris. It, it does bother me this getting credit. Here is the reality. Under Biden, under Trump, American taxpayers have spent over $20 billion in providing military aid to Netanyahu and his extremists.

Chris Williamson 14:37 That's across both administrations?

Bernie Sanders 14:39 Yes.

Chris Williamson 14:39 Right, but I mean, we've only been in, Trump's been in power for what? Seven months?

Bernie Sanders 14:43 No, a little bit more than that.

Chris Williamson 14:45 Eight months.

Bernie Sanders 14:45 But, but Trump has also spent... You're right, most of it was Biden, but Trump has continued the policies. What's been the result of that? The result of that is in a area of 2.2 million people, you have 160,000 people who have been wounded, 65,000 people who have been killed, mostly women, children, and the elderly. That is 10% of the population of Gaza has been killed and wounded. And up until a few days ago, people were literally starving to death because of Israeli blockades, the humanitarian aid. No one deserves, no one in this country deserves a Nobel Peace Prize who has been part of that, and Trump has been part of it.

Chris Williamson 15:28 Even if they're bringing it to an end?

Bernie Sanders 15:29 Well, look, I'm delighted that it's coming, hopefully that it is coming to an end.

Chris Williamson 15:33 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 15:33 But you don't deserve... What we do need to do is to re-examine foreign policy and make sure that taxpayers in this country are never put in that position of having to support such an atrocious, uh, regime as Netanyahu's and what he's doing in Israel.

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Bernie Sanders 17:06 Look, AIPAC has been playing a horrific role. That's a good question. I don't know, I don't know the answer to that. Um, they're an American organization, probably not. But they have... One of the reasons that until very recently you have seen so many Republicans and Democrats, uh, support Netanyahu is precisely because of the money, the tens and tens of millions of dollars that AIPAC is spreading all around in both political parties. You're seeing that change now, because sentiment in the United States is saying, "What we have done in Gaza is unacceptable." And you're seeing even moderate-type Democrats saying, "Excuse me, thank you, I don't want your money anymore." That's a good thing.

Chris Williamson 17:47 Is that rare? Rare for somebody, anybody within government to refuse money?

Bernie Sanders 17:51 Yeah, it is.

Chris Williamson 17:52 In that sort of a way? I mean, I-

Bernie Sanders 17:53 It is, yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:54 I've, I've spoken to... God, who was, uh, the guy that founded Belvedere Vodka and Talenti Gelato? Dean...

Bernie Sanders 18:02 Phillips?

Chris Williamson 18:03 Yes, thank you. He was on the show last year, and, uh, he was telling me about what it's like to be inside of government, and you're spending two to one, three to one time raising money and kissing babies and whatever it is, extended foreplay.

Bernie Sanders 18:17 Kissing babies is the good part, but-

Chris Williamson 18:19 Um-

Bernie Sanders 18:19 ... the raising money I don't know. Each person does it differently. But he is right-... in saying that politicians in both parties spend, a, an enormous amount of time on the phone, or at fancy, uh, fundraising dinners-

Chris Williamson 18:36 Hmm.

Bernie Sanders 18:36 ... or cocktail parties raising money. That's number one. So-

Chris Williamson 18:40 Expensive cocktail parties.

Bernie Sanders 18:41 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 18:42 Yeah.

Bernie Sanders 18:42 So instead of sitting down and saying, "All right, how are we going to deal the major, with the major crises that we're facing?" They're busy raising money. Uh, but number two, by and large, they raise money from very wealthy people. And therefore, you know, if you're a billionaire and you're going to give me a whole lot of money or you set up a super PAC, uh, you know what? When I get elected, I'm going to say, "Hey, thanks."

Chris Williamson 19:02 Hmm.

Bernie Sanders 19:03 "What do you need? I'll do it for you." And that is, into my mind, one of the great crises facing America today. We have a corrupt campaign finance system, uh, and we have got to get rid of this Citizens United Supreme Court decision which basically allows billionaires to establish super PACs. If you're a billionaire, you can put hundreds of millions of dollars, you know, into a super PAC, elect whoever you want, defeat whoever you want. You know, Musk spent, I think, 270 million to help elect Donald Trump. Does anybody think that that is what democracy is supposed to be about? I don't think so.

Chris Williamson 19:36 What can be done with regards to this? I don't think anybody really says the amount of money that gets thrown around with regards to consolidation of power and impact is great for democracy. It makes it much more like a financial version of The Hunger Games than it does the best policies and the best candidate with the most competent team being able to win. Uh, but it seems endemic and locked in and bizarre, and unfortunately for you guys, kind of American. Um, what, w- give me nuts and bolts, gross and small, how do you, what do you do?

Bernie Sanders 20:12 It's not really hard. You gotta do two things. And by the way, you're right. This is other countries. In other countries, money plays a role. But not like here in the United States. Uh, so we can learn from other countries.

Chris Williamson 20:26 Capitalists through and through, even into the...

Bernie Sanders 20:28 Buying elections, right.

Chris Williamson 20:28 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bernie Sanders 20:29 Right. And, and I will tell you that I think there is a revulsion over this, whether you're a conservative Republican, a moderate, progressive, socialist, whatever you may be.

Chris Williamson 20:37 I don't hear anybody saying, "I love how much money is in politics."

Bernie Sanders 20:40 Right.

Chris Williamson 20:40 No.

Bernie Sanders 20:40 I don't hear that either. So what do you got to do? You got to get rid of this terrible Supreme Court decision, and we can do that. And you have to move the public funding of elections. So what does that mean? Right now today, an incumbent, I'm an incumbent, all right? I have a tremendous advantage over you. I know everybody, right?

Chris Williamson 20:56 Hmm.

Bernie Sanders 20:56 . I have a... This is not me, by the way. I don't raise money that way.

Chris Williamson 21:00 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bernie Sanders 21:00 Uh, Senator X, okay? If you want to challenge Senator X, the likelihood is the incumbent could raise a lot more money than you can. All right? So what you say, you move to a system which says, all right, if you as a challenger can show that you have a certain amount of support, you can get a $5 donation from, you know, 5,000 people in your district or whatever it may be, all right? You will then be eligible for public funding, which is, by the way, exactly what's going on right here in New York City. Mamdani-

Chris Williamson 21:28 Hmm.

Bernie Sanders 21:28 ... who with a little bit of luck will become the next mayor of New York City-

Chris Williamson 21:31 Hmm.

Bernie Sanders 21:31 ... receives public funding. So he's not out, you know, hustling money. He has, there's a limit to what he can get. Point is, if you are running against me, I should not have, be able to raise 10 times more than you. You should have as much money as I do, and it should be p- Now, people say, "Oh, public funding. Yeah, you want the taxpayers to fund all these politicians." Well, that's better than having Elon Musk and the other billionaires funding politicians-

Chris Williamson 21:54 Hmm.

Bernie Sanders 21:55 ... in my view.

Chris Williamson 21:56 Can you explain to me how the left is split up at the moment? Progressives, liberals, leftists, Democrats, centrists, populists. There seems to be splinter factions inside of the left that, first off, I don't understand, and secondly, don't seem to exist in quite the same way on the right, although I may be wrong.

Bernie Sanders 22:14 Well, Trump has played a profound role in transforming the Republican Party, and as I said, there are differences of opinion, but most Republicans are afraid to stand up to Trump. All right, here's what you got, in my view. Others will disagree with me.

Chris Williamson 22:28 Cut this pie up for me. Cut this birthday cake up.

Bernie Sanders 22:30 That's a big cake you want me to cut up. I, I can't cut it into that many slices, but this is what I'll tell you. You got a Democratic establishment. All right? Democratic establishment. Uh, and these are folks who deserve, in my view, credit, uh, for over the last, you know, 30, 40, 50 years, pushing this country in some very important directions in terms of women's rights, in terms of the right of women to be able to control their own bodies. That's under attack right now, but many of these folks fought that fight. Civil rights, you know, uh, making sure that we do our best to end bigotry in this country, that we don't judge people by the color of their skin or where they were born.

Chris Williamson 23:14 Hmm.

Bernie Sanders 23:14 And we've made some progress in that area. Gay rights. You know, we have made enormous progress. The idea that, you know, 30, 40 years ago, nobody would have dreamed that we'd have something called gay marriage today. Democrats, I think, deserve a lot of credit for that. But back in the 1970s, some geniuses in the Democratic Party said, "You know what? Republicans get all this money from the rich and large corporations. Why the hell don't we do the same thing?" So they started reaching out to corporate America and the wealthy, and what then began to happen is that when back in the '60s, the '50s, certainly under Franklin Delano Roosevelt in the '30s, the Democratic Party was known, you may like them or not, they were known as the party of the working class in this country. You worked in a factory, you were a low-wage person, you voted Democrat.

Chris Williamson 24:05 Hmm.

Bernie Sanders 24:06 And starting in the 1970s, the Democrats, you know, started talking about other issues, important issues, but not the needs of the American working class. They supported trade agreements, NAFTA, permanent normal trade relations with China, which resulted in the loss of thousands of factories in America, millions of good-paying jobs.... they did not fight effectively for healthcare, they did not fight effectively, uh, for education. S- cost of education went up in this country, housing, et cetera, et cetera. And what evolved over that period of time is to where we are today, where actually more working-class people are voting for Donald Trump-

Chris Williamson 24:45 Hmm.

Bernie Sanders 24:46 ... than voting for the Democratic candidate. And, in my view, it's not because working-class Republicans like Trump's idea of giving a trillion dollars in tax breaks to the 1%, or throwing millions of people, uh, off of healthcare. It's because they feel the Democratic Party has abandoned them, and they don't see an alternative to Trumpism.

Chris Williamson 25:07 Do you watch tennis? Do you watch much tennis?

Bernie Sanders 25:09 There, I love the game-

Chris Williamson 25:10 Okay.

Bernie Sanders 25:10 ... uh, I, but I gotta, no, I'm not.

Chris Williamson 25:13 You understand the idea of an unforced error?

Bernie Sanders 25:15 Yeah, I do.

Chris Williamson 25:15 Yeah. How much of this do you think is an unforced error?

Bernie Sanders 25:18 It's not unforced.

Chris Williamson 25:19 Well, come on. I mean, we're talking about-

Bernie Sanders 25:21 No.

Chris Williamson 25:21 ... the, you just said there that the left has largely abandoned most of the things-

Bernie Sanders 25:25 That's not unforced.

Chris Williamson 25:25 ... they were supposed stand for.

Bernie Sanders 25:27 That's taking money. So look, if you ma- if I say to you-

Chris Williamson 25:30 Hmm.

Bernie Sanders 25:30 ... if I say to you, "Chris-"

Chris Williamson 25:31 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 25:32 "... look, man, I can fund your campaign. You know, you don't have to knock your brains out talking to people, standing up fighting for working-class people. I'll help fund your campaign." "Okay, Bernie, that's great. Thanks." So it's not unforced. You're taking money. You're becoming beholden-

Chris Williamson 25:47 Coerced.

Bernie Sanders 25:47 ... to the people on top rather than the working class of this country. So I don't, I wouldn't use the word unforced. I think it's a tragic era. And what you're seeing right now is a significant split. You know, you talk about the divisions.

Chris Williamson 26:00 Hmm.

Bernie Sanders 26:00 The major division right now is the establishment who wants to continue, uh, receiving money from, uh, wealthy individuals, super PACs. You're seeing it playing out right here in New York City with Mamdani, okay? Here you have a guy who, in my view, and I- I'm strongly supporting him, uh, is running a brilliant campaign. I, I think few would deny that, whether you like him or not. He has, as last count, some 80,000 volunteers knocking on doors in this city right now. Uh, and leaders, some of the major leaders of the Democratic Party refuse to support him. Why is that? Why would you not support a guy who's running an extremely exciting campaign, mobilizing the grassroots? You would think that's exactly what you want to do, right? If you're a politician, you want to get people involved. Well, the choice is Mamdani is antagonizing the ruling class of New York City, the oligarchs.

Chris Williamson 26:54 Do you see some of yourself in Mamdani?

Bernie Sanders 26:58 Yes. Uh, except he's smarter than I am, uh, more articulate than I am. Uh, yeah, uh, in fact, I'm very proud both he and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez worked in my 2016 campaign.

Chris Williamson 27:12 Hmm.

Bernie Sanders 27:12 So they got some experience running around the country.

Chris Williamson 27:15 Presumably also got some experience feeling what it's like to go against the grain of the Democratic Party, and to see where some of the pitfalls are as well.

Bernie Sanders 27:22 Absolutely.

Chris Williamson 27:23 Do you feel like, do you think America's ready for socialists like AOC and Mamdani?

Bernie Sanders 27:28 I do.

Chris Williamson 27:28 Like, really, do you think the country's ready for that?

Bernie Sanders 27:30 W- w- the answer's yes, but then you gotta define what we mean by socialism. And, you know, you come from the UK, so that word is not quite as frightening.

Chris Williamson 27:36 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 27:36 Right?

Chris Williamson 27:37 Yeah. (laughs)

Bernie Sanders 27:37 You're, you're from-

Chris Williamson 27:38 Nowhere near as frightening. No.

Bernie Sanders 27:39 All right. Um, this is what I think. I think the media and some politicians make a big deal about the divisions that exist in America, and they are real, all right? Uh, does a woman have a right to control her own body? I think yes, a majority of Americans think yes, there are a hell of a lot of people who do not think yes. There's a division there. What about guns? Do I think you have a right to have a semiautomatic rifle in your back pocket despite the fact that you beat your wife and you did all, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah? No, I don't. You know, I think we need sane, uh, uh, uh, common sense gun control legislation. Uh, other people, uh, do not, et cetera, et cetera. So there are some real divisions. I believe that regardless of your sexual orientation, you have a right to get married. A lot of people do not. But you go out, Chris, and you say to people, "Hmm, is the American healthcare system working?" What do you think people say? N-O, no. Do you think everybody in America should be entitled to healthcare as a human right? Yeah, I do. Okay, now the argument then comes do you do a British-type system, in the UK, the national health sy- uh, system there has its problems, do you do a Canadian-type system? There are various systems around the world, okay? But every single one of them has this feature. In the UK, no matter who you are, you got healthcare as a right. Is that true?

Chris Williamson 29:09 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 29:10 Okay. Same thing in Canada, same thing all over Europe. And yet in America, we got so many people uninsured or underinsured and we're spending, in the case of the UK about three times per person more than you do, Canada maybe twice as much. So what the American, th- the American people say, "Yeah, give us a healthcare system guarantees healthcare to all people that's cost-effective." There is no division there. That is what the American people want. If you ask the American people that at a time when we have massive income and wealth inequality... Now here's a fact, you tell me, I'm gonna throw it back to you, all right? I think this is, like, pretty crazy. Maybe I'm alone. Our good friend Elon Musk now owns more wealth than the bottom 52% of American households. What do you think?

Chris Williamson 30:02 Feels extreme.

Bernie Sanders 30:04 Yeah. Right. That's it. It is extreme. That one man should own more wealth than over half the households in America sounds a little bit crazy to me.

Chris Williamson 30:12 To, to make a, a comment on the way that Musk's wealth has worked, at least in the past, he has basically burned everything that he has-

Bernie Sanders 30:20 I, I know.

Chris Williamson 30:20 ... in order to restart companies over and over again.

Bernie Sanders 30:23 This is not-

Chris Williamson 30:23 PayPal got spun up and then it's-

Bernie Sanders 30:25 I, no, no, no, no. Okay, we can talk about Musk. This is not even, I'm not even, this is not even, I don't like Musk. But this is not a criticism of Musk.

Chris Williamson 30:30 Really?

Bernie Sanders 30:30 All I am talking about is this one fact. Whether you love Musk, you don't like Musk-... whoever it may be.

Chris Williamson 30:36 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 30:36 I think it's kind of insane that we have a system where so many people are struggling, this guy owns more wealth than the bottom 52%, and he's on his way to become a trillionaire.

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Chris Williamson 32:12 What do you make of his new compensation package?

Bernie Sanders 32:14 What, giving him, uh, uh, uh-

Chris Williamson 32:16 A trillion dollars. If y- I mean, the stretch goals are unbelievably stretch. It's a, a robot in every house, a e- electric vehicle on every corner. So, uh, and this is a serious question, right, because the trillion dollar package sounds, sounds absurd, especially given the fact that you've just trotted this stat out about 52%. However, if somebody achieves unbelievable one in a trillion progress, which presumably is going to reduce carbon impact, which presumably is going to generate a lot more jobs, which presumably is going to do a lot of stuff...

Bernie Sanders 32:51 Presume, you got a lot of presumablys there. I want to talk about your presumablys.

Chris Williamson 32:54 Let's get, get in, get stuck into my presumablys.

Bernie Sanders 32:56 Okay. All right. Let's start off. Is Musk a brilliant guy? Yeah. Is he an incredibly innovative guy? Absolutely. Okay. But I don't care whether he is the world's nicest person, the world's worst person, I happen not to believe that anybody should have that much wealth when so many people are struggling. All right? That's what I believe. And I, I think that gets back to a fundamental issue as to why I am a democratic, a socialist. Look, you, you work hard, somebody works hard, they make some money, God, great, you're rich, terrific.

Chris Williamson 33:28 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 33:28 But there should be a limit. You know, you want a billion dollars? Fine. Do you really need $50 billion, $100 billion? What do you need?

Chris Williamson 33:34 I was gonna say, where does the watershed line start to kick in for you?

Bernie Sanders 33:38 I, I think most people would be happy with a billion dollars, I think.

Chris Williamson 33:41 Okay. Bernie Spidey-sense begins at $1.52 billion.

Bernie Sanders 33:45 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 33:45 Okay?

Bernie Sanders 33:46 Right. All right, but now you ask the next question. You say... And, and it's a very... Your point is very well taken. And, and let me paraphrase it a little bit. You're saying, all right, this guy Musk and others are coming up with these extraordinary ideas, gonna transform our world. Correct? All right. Now here's what we have to take a deep breath and ask ourselves. This is a very serious issue that we are not discussing. There was a poll done a couple of years ago by the Pew, P-E-W, Research Center. They're quite reputable. And this is what they did. They asked the American people a very simple question. This was two years ago. They said, "Do you think people like you," you're middle class, you're working class, you're rich, whatever you may be, "were better off or worse off... Are better off or worse off today than they were 50 years ago?" You got the question?

Chris Williamson 34:37 Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Bernie Sanders 34:38 What do you think the answer was? What did people say?

Chris Williamson 34:40 Most people, most people would say no.

Bernie Sanders 34:42 Right. All right. So we've got to think about that.

Chris Williamson 34:46 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 34:47 In the last 50 years, we've sheen- seen just, right, computers. 50 year goes, there weren't computers. Cell phones-

Chris Williamson 34:55 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 34:56 ... flat screen TVs, driverless cars, all of these things. Great advances in medicine, right? You get cancer today, there's a chance you could be treated certainly in a way you could not have 50 years ago. Right?

Chris Williamson 35:06 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 35:06 Good things. All right, you tell me. Why would... And, and the answer from Pew, that research was 58% of the people said, "I think life was better for people like me 50 years ago." Why would they say that? And what does this have to say with what Musk is trying to do into the future?

Chris Williamson 35:24 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 35:25 Is that a good question?

Chris Williamson 35:26 Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is. Uh, the interesting thing there, you, you, you bring up a good point, which is ease of entertainment, uh, a n- number of different opportunities for people to be able to interact with the world around them, to learn, to be able to relax, et cetera, et cetera. So if people do think that they are worse off... Now, remember this is people feel that they're worse off.

Bernie Sanders 35:48 I know. That's good. Fair enough. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 35:49 Right? Intergenerational competition theory-

Bernie Sanders 35:51 Right.

Chris Williamson 35:51 ... suggests that you compared with where your parents were at your age, but it's not where your parents were, it's where you think your parents were. I know.

Bernie Sanders 35:57 Right?

Chris Williamson 35:57 Fair enough. That, that's- And when we've got comparison from social media, we're seeing the best of everybody else's lives, we see the worst of our own from a front row seat.

Bernie Sanders 36:04 Very good. Fair point. And, and you know, good old days. Well, the good old days were not necessarily, believe me, quite so good.

Chris Williamson 36:09 Interesting point on that, uh, no one ever thinks that they're living through a golden age.

Bernie Sanders 36:14 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:15 No one ever actually believed. Golden eras only exist in retrospect.

Bernie Sanders 36:18 That's right. All right. Well, I don't know how many golden ages we've lived through. All right, anyho- anyway-

Chris Williamson 36:21 I wonder if we'll, I wonder if we'll look back in 50 years time and go, "Oh."

Bernie Sanders 36:24 All right.

Chris Williamson 36:24 "The Roaring Twenties."

Bernie Sanders 36:25 All right, the reason I raise this issue. Why do I raise this issue? Because the point you made is that Musk and others are moving very rapidly to transform our way of life. Correct?

Chris Williamson 36:34 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 36:34 Okay.... why are they doing that? Do you think Mr. Musk is saying that, "I want to improve life for ordinary people. My goal is to make it, make, wipe out poverty in America, make healthcare available to all, lower the cost of housing. I'm gonna... That's what I'm working on."

Chris Williamson 36:54 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 36:56 The answer is, I don't think so. You know-

Chris Williamson 36:58 Does it matter about what his, uh-

Bernie Sanders 36:59 Yeah, it does-

Chris Williamson 36:59 ... intentions are?

Bernie Sanders 37:00 Yes, it does, because what matters is what the goal, what ends up happening. So, the point that I made, and, you know, you made a fair point that, you know, 50 years ago with judging today, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Chris Williamson 37:13 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 37:13 But I think there are a lot of people today who are very, very uncomfortable with society as it exists, right? One of the reasons basically is economic. If you have-

Chris Williamson 37:25 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 37:25 ... 60% of people living paycheck-to-paycheck, they're struggling, that's tough.

Chris Williamson 37:30 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 37:30 All right? If you worry, which is likely the case, that your kids are going to have a lower standard of living than you do, that hurts as well. But it is, it is not just economics, as important as that is. Something else is missing, and I think Musk and his friends will make that situation even worse. In a broad sense, we are losing what might be called a sense of community, right? You know, of relating to each other as human beings. And I worry very, very much about kids who spend their lives on the internet, whose best friends are somebody at chatbox, and what that means. And that is, if Musk gets his way, uh, that is only going to intensify. Now, what does it mean? We talk about robots, right? I happen to believe that we should rebuild manufacturing in America, and I oppose many of these disastrous trade policies that cost us a lot of jobs. But what does that mean if robots are gonna do the work? So, it's good that we produce stuff in America-

Chris Williamson 38:34 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 38:34 It's important for the supply chain, good, but ain't gonna be jobs. Now, there are people, including Musk, uh, including Bill Gates, you know, smart people know a lot about this stuff, who really think... Now, others disagree with them, who really think there's gonna be a, an incredible loss of decent-paying jobs as a result of robotics and AI-

Chris Williamson 38:55 Hm.

Bernie Sanders 38:55 That a lot of entry-level jobs, kids graduate college and are gonna move up the ladder. Well, that first job may not be there because AI has taken that job.

Chris Williamson 39:03 Hm.

Bernie Sanders 39:03 Is that a good thing? I mean, should we... What Musk will say is, "I want, we're creating an efficient society. It's great. We're going to have AI, robotics doing everything."

Chris Williamson 39:12 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 39:13 Yeah, well, the operation was suc- sex- success. Unfortunately, the patient died.

Chris Williamson 39:18 Question on that. Have you looked into the current birthrates of the US much?

Bernie Sanders 39:22 No, I don't.

Chris Williamson 39:23 Right. So, uh, this has been a very unpopular, as you can imagine, uh, campaign of mine. I think that it's something that is a creeping crisis.

Bernie Sanders 39:35 Why is it unpopular?

Chris Williamson 39:37 Because it is very right-coded, because it's very family-values coded. It is, uh... I- I've been accused of slipping my, uh, right-wing conservative, hetero- heteronormative talking points in, uh, under the guise of not wanting the population to go down. Um, what's your perspective on the birthrate in the US?

Bernie Sanders 40:01 I think it's of concern. Look, I, I come from Vermont. It's, uh... And we are one of the oldest states. Our birthrate is, is very low. Uh... I happen to think that, uh, a- as the father of four, the grandfather of seven-

Chris Williamson 40:21 Above 2.1.

Bernie Sanders 40:22 ... that ha-

Chris Williamson 40:22 Congratulations.

Bernie Sanders 40:22 Thank you.

Chris Williamson 40:23 You're contributing.

Bernie Sanders 40:23 You know, that having kids is a beautiful thing, you know, and that makes us human.

Chris Williamson 40:28 Hm.

Bernie Sanders 40:29 I mean, I just think, you know, it's part of what being human is about. Uh, and I think one of the reasons... You know, I talk to... I have a lot of young people who work for me in my office, and I talk to a lot of young people, and they're saying, "Bernie, you know, we can't... Bernie, do you know how much childcare costs? On my salary, we can't even afford to have kids."

Chris Williamson 40:51 Yeah. Yeah, I so-

Bernie Sanders 40:52 And that's, there's truth to that. Don't-

Chris Williamson 40:54 There's some truth to it, but the poorest countries have the, have the most children.

Bernie Sanders 40:57 Well, there are other reasons for that. I mean, you know, in poor countries, the children end up doing work-

Chris Williamson 41:01 Extracted for labor.

Bernie Sanders 41:02 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:03 Yeah, I underst-

Bernie Sanders 41:03 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:03 I, I understand. I think-

Bernie Sanders 41:04 All right, but I, I think that is about... And, and I'll tell you something else, which you may not agree with.

Chris Williamson 41:09 (laughs)

Bernie Sanders 41:09 You know, they're saying, "Look, I, I worry about climate change and I worry about what-"

Chris Williamson 41:13 Oh, that's silly.

Bernie Sanders 41:14 No, it is not silly.

Chris Williamson 41:14 I, I really... It's, no. The worrying about climate change is not silly. Worrying about climate change for your children is very silly.

Bernie Sanders 41:21 No, I don't agree. That's... I'm, all I'm saying is that is-

Chris Williamson 41:24 Let me just... Can I hunt that?

Bernie Sanders 41:25 Sure.

Chris Williamson 41:25 So, South Korea, the birthrate of South Korea at the moment, for every 100 current South Koreans, there will be four great-grandchildren, 96% decrease over the next 100 years. Right? The US is, we're gonna peak probably 2090, something like that. The world population is going to hit nine, 10, might just bounce off the bottom at 10, and it is going to go like this. It is going to be precipitous because you cannot create any more one-year-olds, right? It's impossible. Demography is destiny, as they say. Climate change is a, uh, concern and it is something that we should apply attention to. The timeline that that occurs on is nowhere near the same as birthrates are. Birthrates are going to happen this generation and next generation-

Bernie Sanders 42:12 Okay, hold on a second.

Chris Williamson 42:12 ... and the next generation.

Bernie Sanders 42:13 It, it is a reason that I think that many young couples are hesitant to have kids. It's very-

Chris Williamson 42:18 Question of just one-

Bernie Sanders 42:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:19 ... one final bit on that.

Bernie Sanders 42:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:20 Do you think it would be useful to educate people on the imbalance in terms of the immediacy of birthrate decline and what that's going to mean for the future of the economy, for what their g- their quality of life is going to be like when you compare the sort of timelines of parts per million?

Bernie Sanders 42:35 Uh, we can talk-

Chris Williamson 42:36 Parts per million in the atmosphere, CO2, uh, global warming-

Bernie Sanders 42:39 I wouldn't-

Chris Williamson 42:39 ... et cetera, et cetera.

Bernie Sanders 42:40 Look, the bottom line is I think we should create a nation where people...... want to have kids, enjoy having kids-

Chris Williamson 42:46 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 42:47 ... uh, and so forth. That-

Chris Williamson 42:49 I'm glad to- I'm really glad to hear that. And that's not to say that I was surprised-

Bernie Sanders 42:52 That doesn't surprise you?

Chris Williamson 42:52 No, not at all. It doesn't surprise me, but it does surprise me to hear it sort of coming from that side of the aisle. I don't think that the- the Democrats have done a fantastic job being pro-family values over the last four years or so. There was a vasectomy station outside of the DNC. Free vasectomies outside of the DNC.

Bernie Sanders 43:10 People who want vasectomies, they should have vasectomies.

Chris Williamson 43:13 (laughs) Yeah.

Bernie Sanders 43:13 But, you know-

Chris Williamson 43:13 I know, but you understand the message.

Bernie Sanders 43:14 But that's- I- yeah. But, look, once again, as a very proud father of four and a- a grandfather who enjoys his kids very, very much, you know, I- I think it's a natural part of being human.

Chris Williamson 43:26 Good.

Bernie Sanders 43:26 And we want to create the conditions that- where families feel good about having kids.

Chris Williamson 43:31 And it's families feel, which is really important, right? It's how- what is the sense? So there are some hard objective facts, and there are also this sense, how are they interpreting their life? How are they comparing it to those around them? The reason that I brought up the birthright thing was that you were talking about AI, robotics, outsourcing of work. Uh, there is this odd, we want to bring manufacturing back to the US, but if you have a decreasing population, who is it- and an increasingly aging population, there is this strange, "Well, one of the ways that we can fix this is by outsourcing things to AI." As somebody who's spent a good bit of time thinking about birth rate decline, I have a big problem with that, because you are now putting into the hands of five companies, 10 companies, with five in robotics, five in-

Bernie Sanders 44:17 Eight.

Chris Williamson 44:17 ... uh, AI. That is, oh, the entire economy-

Bernie Sanders 44:21 That's right.

Chris Williamson 44:21 ... now hinges on this. And who says that you, who says that your power is supposed to be on all the time? Who says that you're supposed to get... That is a level of centralization that I don't think we've even seen before.

Bernie Sanders 44:33 That's right. That's all. All I am saying is that Mr. Musk and his friends are making incredibly large investments to the tune of hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars into robotics and AI.

Chris Williamson 44:48 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 44:49 I don't think that their motives are to improve human life, and I think we are going to have to have a real debate about how we handle this issue. Now, one of the things, for example, is that if we're going to see an increase in worker productivity, it seems to me that we should lower the work week from 40 hours to at least 32 hours so that workers benefit from that without losing-

Chris Williamson 45:14 Would that be a four- a four-day week? Is that how you do it?

Bernie Sanders 45:16 Yeah. Exactly.

Chris Williamson 45:17 Yeah.

Bernie Sanders 45:17 Yeah. I think that would take the pressure off a lot of families who today are living under a great deal of stress. Uh, second of all, again, I think it's absolutely imperative that we guarantee healthcare to all people as a human right, that we live in a country where nobody is working for starvation wages, that we raise the minimum wage to a living wage, that we make sure that education is available to all people regardless of their income.

Chris Williamson 45:45 Mm.

Bernie Sanders 45:45 We did it 70 years ago. We had pub- free public colleges and universities. We could do it today. So all I'm saying is, we are looking at a transformational moment in the world and in this country as a result of robotics and AI. We cannot let a handful of multi-billionaires make the decisions for us.

Chris Williamson 46:04 It feels like an intersection.

Bernie Sanders 46:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:06 It feels like a crossroads, I would agree. In other news, this episode is brought to you by Momentous. If your sleep's not dialed, taking ages to nod off, you're waking up at random times and feeling groggy in the morning, Momentous's sleep packs... How did I miss both of those? ... are here to help. They're not your typical knock-you-out supplement overloaded with melatonin, just the most evidence-based ingredients at perfect doses to help you fall asleep more quickly, stay asleep throughout the night, and wake up feeling more rested and revitalized in the morning, which is why I take these things every single night and why I trust my Momentous with my life, or at least with my sleep, because they make the highest quality supplements on the planet. What you read on the label is what's in the product and absolutely nothing else. And if you're still unsure, they've got a 30-day money back guarantee. So you can buy it completely risk-free, use it, and if you do not like it for any reason, they will give you your money back. Plus, they ship internationally. Right now, you can get 35% off your first subscription and that 30-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemomentous.com/modernwisdom and using the code MODERNWISDOM at checkout. That's L-I-V-E-M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S dot com/modernwisdom, and MODERNWISDOM at checkout. I often think about everybody believes that their moment in history is the one, right? Everybody sort of thinks that this is a- a very important moment, that we're on the cusp, because everything that's new is new. And, uh, I- maybe this is just me repeating something that everybody's said every generation previously, it really, really does feel precipice-y for me.

Bernie Sanders 47:40 I- I agree. And I'm- you're right, maybe they said that 50 years ago as well, but I think for a variety of reasons, and I'll tell you the reasons, uh, that I think this is an extraordinary moment. I think climate change is real, and I think if we don't get a handle on it, I worry very much what kind of quality of life our kids and future generations will have. I think that's real. Number two, I worry very much not only about oligarchy, and again, that's what this book was about, in the United States. It's taking place all over the world. You know, I was stunned. In the UK, I keep going back to the UK 'cause you're from there, but you got a- in the UK, great, beautiful nation, something like 35% of your kids are living in poverty right now. Do you know that?

Chris Williamson 48:24 Huh.

Bernie Sanders 48:25 I mean, that's extraordinary, a modern, developed country like the UK. You have countries like Saudi Arabia, where you got a family with a trillion dollars, uh, Qatar, uh, UAE, enormous wealth and power. Uh, Latin America, the guy in Mexico, one guy's- owns more wealth than the bottom half of that society. So what you are looking at is a world, and I touch upon it a little bit in the book, not thoroughly, a little bit-... is a few thousand families, so we got eight billion people in the world today or something like that. You got a few thousand families that have unbelievable economic and political power over this world.

Chris Williamson 48:58 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 48:59 So, you talk about this moment, never before, I do believe, in world history have so few had so much wealth and so much economic and political power. That concerns me. And what you're also seeing throughout Europe and here under Trumpism, is a lot of people are giving up on democracy. All right? And one of the even- you know, the event that we did yesterday is simply to point out that you got a president who is authoritarian, wants more and more power in his own hands, uh, and is prepared to arrest his political opponents, uh, to take power away from universities, from law firms, from the media, suing the media. And this is a very dangerous trend, not only in the United States. You're seeing the growth of right-wing extremism, uh, all over Europe as well. So, I worry about that in terms of the moment that we're living in.

Chris Williamson 49:51 You mentioned before, uh, gay rights, women's bodies, uh, ability for people to get married, immigration. In retrospect, how much of an own goal for Democrats do you think the focus on identity politics has been?

Bernie Sanders 50:08 How m- I'm sorry. How much, I'm sorry?

Chris Williamson 50:10 An own goal or an unforced error has the focus on identity politics been?

Bernie Sanders 50:14 I would- again, you use the word unforce. I wouldn't... I- I think it has been really-

Chris Williamson 50:16 Let's go with own goal.

Bernie Sanders 50:17 Okay. I- i- this is what I think. I think fighting to make sure that women can control their own bodies and are not second-class citizens, enormously important. The need to end all forms of bigotry in this country, enormously, uh, important. But you can, you know, chew bubblegum and walk at the same time. You can fight for women's rights and fight for an economy that works for the working class of this country, not just the billionaires. It's not either or.

Chris Williamson 50:47 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 50:48 The Democrats have been strong on those social issues, identity politics, but they have not been strong in standing up for the working class of this country.

Chris Williamson 50:56 But I think, I think, I think that the focus on identity politics, unless the Democratic Party has a sane answer to questions around immigration, crime, transactivism, DEI, I think it's going to be difficult to get the electorate to resonate. I mean, look at the m- what was the most powerful ad that was run during the, the campaign? "Kamala is for they, them. Trump is for you." Uh, why did that resonate so much?

Bernie Sanders 51:23 Oh, well, you're raising another question. I don't know. Maybe you know the answer. How many people are trans in America, do you know? What percentage of the population?

Chris Williamson 51:30 It'll be, it'll be less than are gay, and that's between 1 and 3%.

Bernie Sanders 51:33 Yeah. Yeah. A tiny, tiny number of people.

Chris Williamson 51:36 So, why is so much attention being focused on that?

Bernie Sanders 51:37 I'll tell you why. Glad you asked that question. All right. What do demagogues always do? All right.

Chris Williamson 51:42 Diminish.

Bernie Sanders 51:44 That's right. All right. So, here you have a country. We have massive income and wealth inequality. We got 60% of people struggling to put food on the table. You got a climate crisis. You have the United States in recent international exams, our kids were 37th in the world in terms of Math and Science, falling far behind China-

Chris Williamson 52:08 Yeah, yeah.

Bernie Sanders 52:08 ... in terms of their educational attainments. Uh, we have a healthcare system falling apart, et cetera. Same people... Now, you may disagree with me on an issue, but we put them on the table, right? Okay, do we have a healthcare crisis? Yeah. Yes. What's your idea? Here's my idea. Argue it out. Let's do it. Correct or not correct?

Chris Williamson 52:27 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 52:28 Got a housing crisis. All right. That's what Democratic with a small D-

Chris Williamson 52:32 But that was not what was focused on.

Bernie Sanders 52:34 I know. I know, know, know (imitates self) .

Chris Williamson 52:36 (laughs)

Bernie Sanders 52:36 That is what real, with a small D, democratic politics is supposed to be about.

Chris Williamson 52:41 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 52:41 How do we work together to solve those problems that we, you and I and others recognize as real problems, right?

Chris Williamson 52:46 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 52:46 Okay. What does Trump do? Trump essentially-

Chris Williamson 52:49 Uh, but come on, just on that, w- i- it doesn't need to be about what is it that Trump was focused on. This, to me, feels like an own goal. The focus was so much... Uh, this wasn't being made up out of nowhere by the Republican Party. There seemed to be things that were being said by the Dems-

Bernie Sanders 53:04 Right.

Chris Williamson 53:04 ... and the focus that was-

Bernie Sanders 53:05 All right. Said by... Well, f- first of all, I am not gonna argue with you as to whether or not the Democrats have, by and large, turned their backs on the economic needs of working people.

Chris Williamson 53:16 To focus on other issues?

Bernie Sanders 53:17 Yes. I- I- that's... (laughs) I've been making that point for quite a while. And the other critique of the Democrats is they have refused to recognize the severity of the crises that we face.

Chris Williamson 53:33 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 53:33 As you and I speak, there's real pain in this country. Right? People are really struggling.

Chris Williamson 53:39 It's kind of a double whammy, right, that you are focusing on something which only affects a minority of people, which is pretty horrendous in terms of messaging, which doesn't seem to resonate in the same way, and also, there are all of these problems that would be really good for you to focus on.

Bernie Sanders 53:54 If you address them.

Chris Williamson 53:54 Yeah, and probably would resonate with more people, which is why, I mean, both me and you agree on this, which is, it does feel an awful lot like the Democrats are out of touch with the working class. And is it surprising that they lost ground with them?

Bernie Sanders 54:06 Well, the answer is, I think after the election, and I worked very hard for Kamala Harrison. After the election, I said, uh, something to the effect that the, uh, we should not be surprised that having... That after the Democrats abandoned the working class of this country, the working class abandoned the Democrats.

Chris Williamson 54:25 Yeah.

Bernie Sanders 54:25 All right? And, and I believe that to be true. I would say that there's good news out there, and you're seeing it again with Mr. Mamdani here in New York and elsewhere, some people are catching on that we got to, uh, uh, deal with, uh, with that reality.

Chris Williamson 54:38 But, um-

Bernie Sanders 54:39 But I want to get back to Trump, 'cause you talked about, you know, this, these ads, that success.

Chris Williamson 54:43 Okay.

Bernie Sanders 54:43 But demagogues always... What do they do? It's, it's them and us. You take a powerless minority, right? In the '30s in Germany, it was the Jews, it was Gypsies. In this country, historically, it has been Blacks and gays.... you take a people and you say, "You can't afford housing. You're not making enough money. You know whose fault it is? Hey, Chris, you know whose fault it is? It's the undocumented."

Chris Williamson 55:04 I'm not convinced... Well, maybe the undocumented thing, actually, yes. Uh, if you were going to say the trans side of stuff, uh, which was the ad that we're talking about in particular, I think the finger was being pointed at Kamala, rather than being pointed at the group. It wasn't these people, this group of people are who's wrong-

Bernie Sanders 55:22 That she was focusing on.

Chris Williamson 55:22 ... it's... Exactly.

Bernie Sanders 55:23 And they took that out of, you know... Do you think... How many times during her campaign did she talk about that issue? You know, you take something-

Chris Williamson 55:29 A thousand hours of someone talking, they're going to slip up every so often.

Bernie Sanders 55:31 Yeah. Or you, you say one thing and you take it out of context. But the point about demagogues is they do not address the real problems facing the overwhelming majority of the people, they demonize. I mean, you listen to some of Trump's speeches, and I was... You know, I heard him. I was there at the State of the Union, you know, a few feet away from him. The horrible and ugly things he says on them. "They're rapists, they're murderers, they're drug dealers." Truth is, the crime rate in the undocumented community in America is lower than it is for Native Americans, you know? They're hardworking people, all right? Should they... You know, etc., etc. But what he does successfully is takes people's frustrations and points them at, to a powerless minority. And that's kind of a horrific thing to do.

Chris Williamson 56:16 Do you agree with the activists calling to abolish ICE?

Bernie Sanders 56:19 No, not right now. But you want... But do I believe, on the other hand, that you should have ICE now running amok, knocking down doors, dragging people? I mean, this is America. People with masks around themselves, often in plainclothes, picking people, picking people up off the street, throwing them in vans, and in some cases, deporting them to Sudan? Really? Is that really America? So, you know, we-

Chris Williamson 56:47 What's-

Bernie Sanders 56:47 ... we need to have sensible... What we need, and what we have needed for decades, since Ronald Reagan in fact, is a sane, uh, immigration, comprehensive immigration policy. So, I think what ICE is doing right now under Trump's directive is horrific. Uh, and it is part of this movement toward authoritarianism. It's not dissimilar from his sending the military into Portland, Oregon, or Chicago, or wherever he's sending them-

Chris Williamson 57:15 Yeah.

Bernie Sanders 57:16 ... to control a rebellion, really. I'm not aware that the people of Portland are trying to overthrow the United States government.

Chris Williamson 57:23 I saw a video from what looked like maybe the subway in New York, of some guy that didn't look to have official credentials, holding up a subway, flashing a light toward what must've been the driver, and trying to accost some person that maybe didn't look like they were fully American in terms of heritage. But I don't think was in a ICE official uniform. What... Is this... 'Cause in the UK, there's this meme of citizen arrests. Have you ever heard of that?

Bernie Sanders 57:56 Sure.

Chris Williamson 57:56 Right. What's happening? What is that?

Bernie Sanders 57:58 Well, look, if you have people... And sometimes they have masks, sometimes they don't. No one disputes the fact that they are picking up people who are American citizens, right? But i- in this country, you have a history of due process. If I want to... If I think you are guilty of something, you get arrested, you have due process, your right to an attorney, a right to defend yourself.

Chris Williamson 58:18 Is this a grassroots thing? Is this-

Bernie Sanders 58:20 Right. And then what... To answer your question, if you have government agents doing it, somebody else comes along and says, "Hey, they're doing it. You're under arrest." Really? And you're seeing some of that as well. And that is vigilantism and frightening.

Chris Williamson 58:33 Right. Okay. It's, it's, uh, amateur bounty hunter type-

Bernie Sanders 58:36 Yes,

Bernie Sanders 58:37 exactly.

Chris Williamson 58:37 ... stuff. Okay. Uh, I want to talk about something that's really important to me. So, you're big into inequality, uh, as am I. I, I grew up as working class as is possible. The only thing that was famous about the town that I grew up in in the UK is it had the highest teen pregnancy rating in the UK. And then it lost that, so it didn't even have that anymore. Um, fatherlessness. Boys who grow up apart from their biological father are about two times more likely to land in prison or jail by age 30. Fatherlessness is a better predictor of incarceration than race or growing up poor. Young men are more likely to end up in prison or jail in the US than they are to graduate from college if they are raised in any non-intact family setup. Regardless of family income, children in intact families are about half as likely to be diagnosed with depression. What do you make of that?

Bernie Sanders 59:27 I make it to be a serious crisis. And I make it... Uh, I believe in family. Uh, and I believe we have got to create the conditions for young people to be good dads and good mums, uh, and to raise healthy children.

Chris Williamson 59:47 Mm-hmm. Thinking about some of the groups that you brought up today, one of the ones that's, um... Obvious in its absence is men. Uh, why have the left tended to not talk about men's issues, do you think?

Bernie Sanders 1:00:04 That's a good question, and I think... I mean, we saw it with... I, I think the underlying issue is that for a very long time, women were second-class citizens in this country. And people were saying, "Does it make sense that you have women who cannot become police officers, soldiers, carpenters, governors, presidents of the United States?" And that's wrong. If we believe in equality, we want to give everybody an equal opportunity. So, I think there was that focus on that. I think the issue you're raising is getting more discussion, and it needs far more, is that what we have seen right now in... I, I was on a plane coming from Washington back to Vermont, sitting next to a woman, and, uh, she was visiting her daughter at the University of Vermont. And we were chatting, and she mentioned to me that something like over 60% of the college...... of the kids in her daughter's class were women.

Chris Williamson 1:01:01 Correct.

Bernie Sanders 1:01:01 Okay.

Chris Williamson 1:01:01 Two women for every one man completing a four-year US college degree, basically, yeah.

Bernie Sanders 1:01:05 Is that what it is now? All right. Not a good situation.

Chris Williamson 1:01:06 Yeah. That's more, that's a bigger gap than when Title IX came in 50 years ago-

Bernie Sanders 1:01:09 All right, all right. This is-

Chris Williamson 1:01:10 ... in the other direction.

Bernie Sanders 1:01:11 This is a serious issue. And I think i- i- i- it is not incompatible to say that we believe in women's rights, the right of women to control their own body, that we don't want women to be second-class citizen, but say it the same thing, of course, we want our young men to be able to have all of the opportunities that they deserve as well.

Chris Williamson 1:01:32 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 1:01:32 And there has not been the kind of focus on that that I think, uh, needs to be.

Chris Williamson 1:01:37 Before we continue, if you haven't been feeling as sharp or energized as you'd like, getting your blood work done is the best place to start, which is why I partnered with Function, because they run lab tests twice a year that monitor over 100 biomarkers. They've got a team of expert physicians that take the data, put it in a simple dashboard, and give you actionable insights and recommendations to improve your health and lifespan. They track everything from your heart health to your hormone levels, your thyroid function and nutrient deficiencies. They even screen for 50 types of cancer at stage one, which is five times more data than you get from an annual physical. Getting your blood work drawn and analyzed like this would usually cost thousands, but with Function, it is only $500. And right now, the first 1,000 people can get an additional $100 off, meaning it's only 400 bucks. To get the exact same blood panel that I use, just go to the link in the description below or head to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. That's functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. Do you know Richard Reeves? He does the American Institute for Boys and Men. Policy wonk-

Bernie Sanders 1:02:35 I have heard of him, but I don't know.

Chris Williamson 1:02:36 Yeah, he wrote Of Boys And Men. So this is just a passage from an article he wrote a little while ago, so let me get you to react to this. "Suicide rates among men under 30 have risen by 40% since 2010, and are four times higher than among young women. Male suicides account for as many deaths as breast cancer. Men are less likely than women to go to college or to buy a home. They're more likely to be lonely and more vulnerable to addiction. Young white men from lower income homes are worse off than their fathers on almost every economic and social indicator."

Bernie Sanders 1:03:00 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:03:00 "There is a bigger gender gap on campuses today than in 1972 when the government passed Title IX to prevent sex-based discrimination in education, but today, the disparities in college enrollment and performance are the other way around. There is no strong evidence that young men are turning against gender equality, but they have turned away from the left because the left has turned away from them. The problems of young men are not the confections of reactionaries. This is a story of elite neglect, not voter chauvinism. The Democrats have failed to address these issues. Under the Biden administration, the Centers for Disease Center Control and Prevention has refused to acknowledge the gender disparity in suicide rates. The White House Gender Policy Council has not tackled a single issue pri- primarily facing boys and men. There have been initiatives to promote me- uh, women in STEM and construction, but nothing about encouraging men into teaching or men's health. There is women's health research initiatives, but no office on men's health. The Democrats and progressive institutions have a massive blind spot when it comes to male issues, and this was exposed in the election. At worst, men are seen as not having problems, but as being the problem."

Bernie Sanders 1:03:58 Uh-

Chris Williamson 1:03:59 That was Richard. He's as policy wonky, DC fluffy as you get.

Bernie Sanders 1:04:01 I agree with much, not all of what he's saying. I think, look, here is the issue. The world, in the fight for women's equality, the world has changed. All right? 50, 60 years ago, men were the breadwinners in most households, right?

Chris Williamson 1:04:18 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 1:04:18 Men were the bosses.

Chris Williamson 1:04:20 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 1:04:21 Men made the most money. Men were the governors, men were the presidents, men were the senators. It was a man's world. That's changed. And the fact that we have fought and achieved more equality for women is a positive thing.

Chris Williamson 1:04:34 I agree.

Bernie Sanders 1:04:34 All right. But, but you're suddenly seeing, and I think half of what he says is, is very true-

Chris Williamson 1:04:41 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 1:04:42 Uh, you're suddenly seeing men feel, "Does anyone give a damn about me?" You know, "What's going on in my life?" Good. If we want women's equality, what about me? Have we paid enough attention to that, attention to that? I think, uh, we have not, and I think we need to do a better job. But I don't believe that everything that Reeves is saying is accurate.

Chris Williamson 1:04:58 Yeah. I understand.

Bernie Sanders 1:04:59 But-

Chris Williamson 1:04:59 I was watching that, uh, uh, now infamous, uh, interview that you and AOC did on CNN last week, I think.

Bernie Sanders 1:05:06 It was infamous? What, because Fox television picked up on it?

Chris Williamson 1:05:09 Yeah, yeah.

Bernie Sanders 1:05:09 No, I don't really see the good-

Chris Williamson 1:05:09 Well, it's just gone everywhere. It's gone everywhere, right? It was, it's-

Bernie Sanders 1:05:12 What was infamous about it?

Chris Williamson 1:05:13 Well, the, "Well, this is what we're talking about!" And then you kind of, uh, blew through when it was asked, "Is this going to be a challenge?" That wasn't what I was interested in, primarily. What I thought was real interesting was she said, uh, "The reason that Republicans have appealed to young men is a dangerous way. They are able to radicalize and target and exploit a generation of young boys in particular away from healthy masculinity and into an insecure masculinity that requires the domination of others who are poorer, browner, darker or a different gender than them." Do you think Democrats have done a good job of giving men a positive vision about themselves? She's saying that this is an insecure masculinity as opposed to a healthy one.

Bernie Sanders 1:05:49 Look, all I, look, I, you know, I'm not a great expert on this.

Chris Williamson 1:05:52 Yep.

Bernie Sanders 1:05:53 Uh, I think this is a real issue.

Chris Williamson 1:05:55 Yeah.

Bernie Sanders 1:05:55 Uh, and I think we've got to pay a lot more attention to it.

Chris Williamson 1:05:58 I'm interested in, after however long you've been doing this, what keeps you up at night the most. After all this time, I would imagine-

Bernie Sanders 1:06:08 What keeps me, I'll tell you what keep- and literally it does. I don't sleep all that well anymore. I worry about the future of this country and whether or not we will be a democracy. I worry about a president who is a megalomaniac, who is a pathological liar, uh, and who is working at the service of oligarchs who want more and more wealth for themselves. That is precisely what keeps me up at night, and that is why I'm working as hard as I can, uh, to stop Trumpism in this country.

Chris Williamson 1:06:38 Are you hopeful about the future?

Bernie Sanders 1:06:42 Uh, on Mondays I am-

Chris Williamson 1:06:44 (laughs)

Bernie Sanders 1:06:44 ... Tuesdays I'm not, Wednesdays I am.

Chris Williamson 1:06:47 (laughs)

Bernie Sanders 1:06:48 Uh, I see some very hopeful things. Uh, yesterday-

Chris Williamson 1:06:50 Yeah.

Bernie Sanders 1:06:50 ... you know, we had some seven million people coming out-

Chris Williamson 1:06:53 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 1:06:53 ... all over this country in small towns, big cities, to say no to-

Chris Williamson 1:06:57 Mm-hmm.

Bernie Sanders 1:06:57 ... no kings in America. Uh, on the other hand, there are ominous trends, uh, which I, I worry about. I think, you know, and it's not just men, but it is, the world is changing so fast and people are worried about AI and robotics and losing their jobs. They're worried about putting food on the table. They're worried about climate and other issues. And you got a president out there who's taking advantage of that and saying, "You know what? What you really need is a strong guy. I'll take care of everything. We really don't need a democratic form of society." That worries me very much.

Chris Williamson 1:07:33 Mm. I wonder what the appropriate way to counterbalance that is in three years time, two, two and a half years time.

Bernie Sanders 1:07:44 Well, I think, uh, we have got to develop, uh, a strong grassroots movement in this country to understand that under our constitution, power rests with the people, uh, not with a, uh, guy who wants more and more power for himself. But this is, you know, you talked earlier about maybe every generation says this is the most, this is a very pivotal moment in American history, but I am confident that if we do not allow Trump to divide us up based on the color of our skin or our sexual orientation or where we were born, the American people are decent. I've had the privilege and the honor of being in every state in this country. I've talked to literally millions of people. We are a good people. Most people believe in justice. Most people are not bigots. Most people believe in democracy. Most people believe that we should have an economy and a government that work for all of us. It's going to take a lot of work to bring that about, but it's what I do. On that note, I think I gotta get going. Is that all right?

Chris Williamson 1:08:44 Senator Bernie Sanders, ladies and gentlemen, I appreciate you.

Bernie Sanders 1:08:46 Well, thank you very much, Chris Andrew. (instrumental music plays)

Chris Williamson 1:08:49 Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, you will love this one with the one and only Tulsi Gabbard. Come on, press it.