Who Actually Runs the US Government? – Bernie Sanders

1. 0:00 – 8:35

   Income Inequality is at an All-Time High

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      I read something recently that I wanted to get your thoughts on. "The left's greatest enemy is not the right, but the hard left. The right's greatest enemy is not the left, but the hard right. The lunatics of your own side make you look much sillier than the opposition ever could."

   2. BSBernie Sanders0:14

      All right, maybe. But what I am most interested in right now is not left or right. Uh, what I am focusing on right now is that in an unprecedented way in American history, we have more income and wealth inequality, more concentration of ownership, more billionaire control over the media and our political system than we've ever had in the history of the United States. And you add all that together, that's what's called oligarchy. And that's the fight that I am engaging in right now. We should not be living in a nation where so few have so much wealth and power while at the same time, Chris, you got in the richest country on Earth, 60% of our people, got it? 60% are living paycheck to paycheck. They're struggling to pay for healthcare, for childcare, for education. Housing is off the charts. M- Very few young people can afford to buy their own homes. And parents are having a hard time even affording to buy decent quality food for their kids. That's the reality I'm focusing on right now.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:17

      What's the story of how we got here?

   4. BSBernie Sanders1:19

      Good question. Uh, here's a sta- Let me throw out a statistic and we can go from there. In the last 52 years, you got it? Go back to 1973, all right?

   5. CWChris Williamson1:32

      Mm-hmm, you would have been 31. Yeah.

   6. BSBernie Sanders1:34

      All right.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:34

      Yeah.

   8. BSBernie Sanders1:34

      I would have been i- Right. There has been an explosion in technology, correct?

   9. CWChris Williamson1:40

      Mm-hmm.

   10. BSBernie Sanders1:40

       Explosion in worker productivity. So how is the average worker doing with all of that increase in worker productivity and technology? They doing really much better now than they did back in the early '70s? No. In fact, real inflation accounted for weekly wages for the average American worker is lower today than it was back then. That's an extraordinary statistic. And at the same time, according to the Rand Corporation, we are seeing a $75 trillion transfer of wealth. Okay, you with me? From the bottom 90% to the top 1%. So what you have seen throughout that period is the very wealthiest people becoming much wealthier, all of the gains of worker productivity, increased worker productivity, et cetera, going to the people on top. And today, tens of millions of working class families are struggling, uh, to put food on the table for their kids.

   11. CWChris Williamson2:40

       Mm. I want to show you a chart, uh, in a second. So this tracks the price of consumer goods and services over the last 25 years. Broadly speaking, prices have increased by about 74% since 2000, but the actual numbers vary wildly depending on what type of good or service it is. So consumer goods, toys, TVs have gotten-

   12. BSBernie Sanders2:59

       Housing, got housing in there?

   13. CWChris Williamson3:00

       Uh, consumer goods like toys and TVs have gotten over 50% cheaper. TVs are nearly 100% cheaper.

   14. BSBernie Sanders3:05

       Yep.

   15. CWChris Williamson3:06

       But critical categories like healthcare, education have skyrocketed by 200%. Housing is in there too. One potential interpretation is that the less legislation that you apply to an industry, the more the free market is allowed to take over, the cheaper that things become. Even new cars haven't got that much more expensive. So this is price changes, and you can see as you basically get to the top, there's more legislation put in and down to the bottom. What do you make of that?

   16. BSBernie Sanders3:30

       I don't. Uh... (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson3:33

       (laughs)

   18. BSBernie Sanders3:33

       Yeah, look, to me, when I look at the economy, I look at what does a family need to do well? Okay, let's just go through what are the basic needs of life?

   19. CWChris Williamson3:42

       Mm-hmm.

   20. BSBernie Sanders3:43

       All right, everybody, right, rich, poor, young, old needs healthcare, correct? In America, by the way, we probably spend three times more per person on healthcare than you do in the UK.

   21. CWChris Williamson3:54

       Mm-hmm.

   22. BSBernie Sanders3:54

       Okay?

   23. CWChris Williamson3:55

       What are the outcomes like?

   24. BSBernie Sanders3:57

       Uh, UK has its problems, but I think, it depends. I think... A- again, I'm talking off the top of my head, I don't think there's all that much difference. In terms of international outcomes, I don't know just the UK, the United States does not do particularly well. Uh, we spend twice as much per capita as the average OECD country. We live three or four years shorter lives. We have 85 million Americans who are uninsured or underinsured. Uh, we don't have enough doctors. Even if you have decent insurance, sometimes it's hard to find a doctor. Not enough dentists, not enough nurses. So we have a very broken and dysfunctional healthcare system. Bottom line, it is enormously expensive, and if Trump gets his way, by the way, what this shutdown is all about, it will become much more expen- So that's what the book that I wrote deals with, all right? Second of all, all right, so you got healthcare is a basic need. What else is a basic need? Housing.

   25. CWChris Williamson4:46

       Housing.

   26. BSBernie Sanders4:46

       Both of us would like to have a roof over our head. Now you tell me, somebody your age in the United States, average young person, how old are you?

   27. CWChris Williamson4:54

       37.

   28. BSBernie Sanders4:54

       All right, take me back to 35, 30 years of age, that person can afford a housing, housing in the United States? Not again. Amazingly enough, you know, when I was a kid, before all this technology and all this increased worker productivity, it was, you know, a young married couple could afford their own home. So the cost of housing is off the charts. Uh, it's not just that we have 800,000 people who are homeless in America. That's a tragedy. You got 20 million households who are spending over 50% of their limited income on housing, and that's insane. So you're spending 40, 50%, you don't have much left over for anything else. All right, so you got a healthcare disaster, housing disaster, what about education? You got a young kid? Do you have any kids?

   29. CWChris Williamson5:38

       No, not yet.

   30. BSBernie Sanders5:39

       All right. Well, as soon as you have a young kid and you look for childcare, you're going to find out it is very expensive, all right? Uh, you will find that if, uh, you know, you're gonna send your kid to college in the United States, very, very expensive. Uh, interestingly enough, way back before the '60s, do you know how much tuition cost in, in very good quality, uh, public colleges and universities in the United States?
2. 8:35 – 14:03

   Why Trump Needs to be Challenged

   1. CWChris Williamson8:35

      What's the problem with consolidation of power? Typically, coming from the world that I used to come from, which was business, you get economies of scale. You centralize things, you don't have as many problems when it comes to communication, but it seems like in this situation, consolidation of power is an issue.

   2. BSBernie Sanders8:51

      Well, in some cases you have efficiencies, right? Due to scale. But on the other hand, when you have a handful of large corporations owning and controlling what is produced and engaging more or less in price fixing, uh, we got some serious problems. And I'll give you, in terms of concentration of ownership, today you have three major Wall Street, uh, e- firms, uh, BlackRock, State Street, uh, and Vanguard, that combined, when you combined the three of them, uh, are the major stockholders in 95% of American S&P corporations. That's a lot of power in the hands of very few people.

   3. CWChris Williamson9:35

      Mm-hmm.

   4. BSBernie Sanders9:36

      So, what we are talking about is not just income and wealth inequality, and I consider that to be a very serious issue, it is power. Power. You know, just yesterday I- I spoke in Washington DC to a couple of hundred thousand people as part of the No Kings rallies that took place all over America.

   5. CWChris Williamson9:52

      Main stage of Glastonbury.

   6. BSBernie Sanders9:53

      Pardon me?

   7. CWChris Williamson9:54

      Main stage of Glastonbury.

   8. BSBernie Sanders9:55

      Yeah. (laughs) And, uh, you know, the theme of the day is that in America, we took on the British a few years ago and saying, "No more kings." We don't... We want... What democracy is about is individuals, to as great a degree as possible, having the power to control their own lives. Not a president and not a bunch of oligarchs. And unfortunately, that's the direction we're moving in.

   9. CWChris Williamson10:22

      Mm-hmm. Something that we both agree on is that socialized healthcare should be available to everybody. What do you make of Marjorie Taylor Greene talking about fixing healthcare? I think this was a surprise to many.

   10. BSBernie Sanders10:34

       Well, it is. She is, look, she- her politics are like, you know, totally different than my politics. I- I don't know, I don't think I've ever met her. But I'll give her credit for at least having done what very few Republicans today are doing, having the guts to stand up to Republican leadership and Donald Trump. And one of the things that worries me about what's going on politically in the United States today, and this is a new phenomenon. (laughs) You know, when you got a Democrat president, Democrats rally around the Democrat, you got a Republican, Republicans rally around the Republican president. Nothing new about that. But what you're seeing today is almost the Stalinist type allegiance in the Republican Party, real fear that if you buck the president-

   11. CWChris Williamson11:18

       Hmm.

   12. BSBernie Sanders11:18

       ... you are in trouble, that Musk and his billionaire friends are going to primary you. I'll give you one example of this. Uh, there's a guy named Thom Tillis. I don't know if that name means anything to you.

   13. CWChris Williamson11:27

       Nope.

   14. BSBernie Sanders11:28

       Tillis is kind of your... He's a nice guy. He's- he's kind of average conservative Republican. So, when Trump's big beautiful bill, you're familiar with that, which I consider to be a terrible bill, uh, gets passed, uh, uh, is- is brought up, Tillis looks at the bill, he's from North Carolina, he looks at the bill and he says, "You know what? This is going to be a disaster for the people of North Carolina. Hundreds of thousands of people are going to lose their health insurance, costs are going to go up, I can't support this." This is a United States Senator running for re-election, okay? Within hours, Trump is all over social media denouncing this guy, billionaires are saying, "You're finished, we're going to primary you."

   15. CWChris Williamson12:07

       Hmm.

   16. BSBernie Sanders12:07

       And a day later, this guy says, "I'm out of here. I can't take this."

   17. CWChris Williamson12:10

       Mm-hmm.

   18. BSBernie Sanders12:11

       You know? So, what you have right now in the Republican Party-... is a cult of the individual where very few are prepared to differentiate themselves from Trump. And to her credit, uh, Marjorie Taylor Greene has been willing to do that.

   19. CWChris Williamson12:30

       Was there not a soft equivalent of that when you ran as well on the other side?

   20. BSBernie Sanders12:34

       There is, of course. And look, you know, I, the answer is in general, yes. But not, give you an example of that. Uh, you know, when Biden was president, Biden's a friend of mine, but his policies toward Netanyahu, uh, and to funding that horrific war in Gaza, which has caused so much destruction to the Palestinian people, I took him on. And I was out there, and this is a very important issue of foreign policy. And I took him on and along with others and said, "You know what, Mr. President? You're dead wrong. Stop funding the Netanyahu war machine which is causing so much death and destruction in Gaza." And on other issues we took him on. So in general, it's not surprising. You got a Democratic president, Democrats will support him, or Republicans. But this is new. This kind of, it reminds me, I don't know how familiar you are with this, you know, when Stalin was the leader of the USSR, you remember?

   21. CWChris Williamson13:28

       Yeah.

   22. BSBernie Sanders13:29

       And they used to have, he used to give a speech, and all these guys would stand up and they would applaud. And everyone looked around to see who would be-

   23. CWChris Williamson13:37

       No one would stop first.

   24. BSBernie Sanders13:37

       That's right (laughs) . Or you stop first, you know, you're in trouble right now, like Saddam Hussein. So it's kind of what you got. You got everyone has got to praise Trump. "Oh, he's great." "No, he's not great." "He's fantastic." "No, he's not fantastic." "He's the greatest gift to humanity. Give him a Nobel Prize to be the greatest human being in the history of the world." You know, and they keep going on and on and on and on. They're afraid. Anyone says anything critical, they are in trouble. The moneyed interests will go after them. They'll lose their next election.

   25. CWChris Williamson14:02

       Mm.

3. 14:03 – 19:36

   Does Trump Deserve the Nobel Peace Prize?

   1. CWChris Williamson14:03

      Do you think Trump would deserve a Nobel Peace Prize if this plan in the Middle East works?

   2. BSBernie Sanders14:09

      Look, thank God, well, we've got some not so good news literally today that the fighting seems to be erupting, and we all hope that peace is established. But no. You know, and I got to, I got to tell you something, Chris. It, it does bother me this getting credit. Here is the reality. Under Biden, under Trump, American taxpayers have spent over $20 billion in providing military aid to Netanyahu and his extremists.

   3. CWChris Williamson14:37

      That's across both administrations?

   4. BSBernie Sanders14:39

      Yes.

   5. CWChris Williamson14:39

      Right, but I mean, we've only been in, Trump's been in power for what? Seven months?

   6. BSBernie Sanders14:43

      No, a little bit more than that.

   7. CWChris Williamson14:45

      Eight months.

   8. BSBernie Sanders14:45

      But, but Trump has also spent... You're right, most of it was Biden, but Trump has continued the policies. What's been the result of that? The result of that is in a area of 2.2 million people, you have 160,000 people who have been wounded, 65,000 people who have been killed, mostly women, children, and the elderly. That is 10% of the population of Gaza has been killed and wounded. And up until a few days ago, people were literally starving to death because of Israeli blockades, the humanitarian aid. No one deserves, no one in this country deserves a Nobel Peace Prize who has been part of that, and Trump has been part of it.

   9. CWChris Williamson15:28

      Even if they're bringing it to an end?

   10. BSBernie Sanders15:29

       Well, look, I'm delighted that it's coming, hopefully that it is coming to an end.

   11. CWChris Williamson15:33

       Mm-hmm.

   12. BSBernie Sanders15:33

       But you don't deserve... What we do need to do is to re-examine foreign policy and make sure that taxpayers in this country are never put in that position of having to support such an atrocious, uh, regime as Netanyahu's and what he's doing in Israel.

   13. CWChris Williamson15:49

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   14. BSBernie Sanders17:06

       Look, AIPAC has been playing a horrific role. That's a good question. I don't know, I don't know the answer to that. Um, they're an American organization, probably not. But they have... One of the reasons that until very recently you have seen so many Republicans and Democrats, uh, support Netanyahu is precisely because of the money, the tens and tens of millions of dollars that AIPAC is spreading all around in both political parties. You're seeing that change now, because sentiment in the United States is saying, "What we have done in Gaza is unacceptable." And you're seeing even moderate-type Democrats saying, "Excuse me, thank you, I don't want your money anymore." That's a good thing.

   15. CWChris Williamson17:47

       Is that rare? Rare for somebody, anybody within government to refuse money?

   16. BSBernie Sanders17:51

       Yeah, it is.

   17. CWChris Williamson17:52

       In that sort of a way? I mean, I-

   18. BSBernie Sanders17:53

       It is, yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson17:54

       I've, I've spoken to... God, who was, uh, the guy that founded Belvedere Vodka and Talenti Gelato? Dean...

   20. BSBernie Sanders18:02

       Phillips?

   21. CWChris Williamson18:03

       Yes, thank you. He was on the show last year, and, uh, he was telling me about what it's like to be inside of government, and you're spending two to one, three to one time raising money and kissing babies and whatever it is, extended foreplay.

   22. BSBernie Sanders18:17

       Kissing babies is the good part, but-

   23. CWChris Williamson18:19

       Um-

   24. BSBernie Sanders18:19

       ... the raising money I don't know. Each person does it differently. But he is right-... in saying that politicians in both parties spend, a, an enormous amount of time on the phone, or at fancy, uh, fundraising dinners-

   25. CWChris Williamson18:36

       Hmm.

   26. BSBernie Sanders18:36

       ... or cocktail parties raising money. That's number one. So-

   27. CWChris Williamson18:40

       Expensive cocktail parties.

   28. BSBernie Sanders18:41

       Exactly.

   29. CWChris Williamson18:42

       Yeah.

   30. BSBernie Sanders18:42

       So instead of sitting down and saying, "All right, how are we going to deal the major, with the major crises that we're facing?" They're busy raising money. Uh, but number two, by and large, they raise money from very wealthy people. And therefore, you know, if you're a billionaire and you're going to give me a whole lot of money or you set up a super PAC, uh, you know what? When I get elected, I'm going to say, "Hey, thanks."
4. 19:36 – 27:23

   Can Democracy Be Bought?

   1. BSBernie Sanders19:36

   2. CWChris Williamson19:36

      What can be done with regards to this? I don't think anybody really says the amount of money that gets thrown around with regards to consolidation of power and impact is great for democracy. It makes it much more like a financial version of The Hunger Games than it does the best policies and the best candidate with the most competent team being able to win. Uh, but it seems endemic and locked in and bizarre, and unfortunately for you guys, kind of American. Um, what, w- give me nuts and bolts, gross and small, how do you, what do you do?

   3. BSBernie Sanders20:12

      It's not really hard. You gotta do two things. And by the way, you're right. This is other countries. In other countries, money plays a role. But not like here in the United States. Uh, so we can learn from other countries.

   4. CWChris Williamson20:26

      Capitalists through and through, even into the...

   5. BSBernie Sanders20:28

      Buying elections, right.

   6. CWChris Williamson20:28

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   7. BSBernie Sanders20:29

      Right. And, and I will tell you that I think there is a revulsion over this, whether you're a conservative Republican, a moderate, progressive, socialist, whatever you may be.

   8. CWChris Williamson20:37

      I don't hear anybody saying, "I love how much money is in politics."

   9. BSBernie Sanders20:40

      Right.

   10. CWChris Williamson20:40

       No.

   11. BSBernie Sanders20:40

       I don't hear that either. So what do you got to do? You got to get rid of this terrible Supreme Court decision, and we can do that. And you have to move the public funding of elections. So what does that mean? Right now today, an incumbent, I'm an incumbent, all right? I have a tremendous advantage over you. I know everybody, right?

   12. CWChris Williamson20:56

       Hmm.

   13. BSBernie Sanders20:56

       . I have a... This is not me, by the way. I don't raise money that way.

   14. CWChris Williamson21:00

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   15. BSBernie Sanders21:00

       Uh, Senator X, okay? If you want to challenge Senator X, the likelihood is the incumbent could raise a lot more money than you can. All right? So what you say, you move to a system which says, all right, if you as a challenger can show that you have a certain amount of support, you can get a $5 donation from, you know, 5,000 people in your district or whatever it may be, all right? You will then be eligible for public funding, which is, by the way, exactly what's going on right here in New York City. Mamdani-

   16. CWChris Williamson21:28

       Hmm.

   17. BSBernie Sanders21:28

       ... who with a little bit of luck will become the next mayor of New York City-

   18. CWChris Williamson21:31

       Hmm.

   19. BSBernie Sanders21:31

       ... receives public funding. So he's not out, you know, hustling money. He has, there's a limit to what he can get. Point is, if you are running against me, I should not have, be able to raise 10 times more than you. You should have as much money as I do, and it should be p- Now, people say, "Oh, public funding. Yeah, you want the taxpayers to fund all these politicians." Well, that's better than having Elon Musk and the other billionaires funding politicians-

   20. CWChris Williamson21:54

       Hmm.

   21. BSBernie Sanders21:55

       ... in my view.

   22. CWChris Williamson21:56

       Can you explain to me how the left is split up at the moment? Progressives, liberals, leftists, Democrats, centrists, populists. There seems to be splinter factions inside of the left that, first off, I don't understand, and secondly, don't seem to exist in quite the same way on the right, although I may be wrong.

   23. BSBernie Sanders22:14

       Well, Trump has played a profound role in transforming the Republican Party, and as I said, there are differences of opinion, but most Republicans are afraid to stand up to Trump. All right, here's what you got, in my view. Others will disagree with me.

   24. CWChris Williamson22:28

       Cut this pie up for me. Cut this birthday cake up.

   25. BSBernie Sanders22:30

       That's a big cake you want me to cut up. I, I can't cut it into that many slices, but this is what I'll tell you. You got a Democratic establishment. All right? Democratic establishment. Uh, and these are folks who deserve, in my view, credit, uh, for over the last, you know, 30, 40, 50 years, pushing this country in some very important directions in terms of women's rights, in terms of the right of women to be able to control their own bodies. That's under attack right now, but many of these folks fought that fight. Civil rights, you know, uh, making sure that we do our best to end bigotry in this country, that we don't judge people by the color of their skin or where they were born.

   26. CWChris Williamson23:14

       Hmm.

   27. BSBernie Sanders23:14

       And we've made some progress in that area. Gay rights. You know, we have made enormous progress. The idea that, you know, 30, 40 years ago, nobody would have dreamed that we'd have something called gay marriage today. Democrats, I think, deserve a lot of credit for that. But back in the 1970s, some geniuses in the Democratic Party said, "You know what? Republicans get all this money from the rich and large corporations. Why the hell don't we do the same thing?" So they started reaching out to corporate America and the wealthy, and what then began to happen is that when back in the '60s, the '50s, certainly under Franklin Delano Roosevelt in the '30s, the Democratic Party was known, you may like them or not, they were known as the party of the working class in this country. You worked in a factory, you were a low-wage person, you voted Democrat.

   28. CWChris Williamson24:05

       Hmm.

   29. BSBernie Sanders24:06

       And starting in the 1970s, the Democrats, you know, started talking about other issues, important issues, but not the needs of the American working class. They supported trade agreements, NAFTA, permanent normal trade relations with China, which resulted in the loss of thousands of factories in America, millions of good-paying jobs.... they did not fight effectively for healthcare, they did not fight effectively, uh, for education. S- cost of education went up in this country, housing, et cetera, et cetera. And what evolved over that period of time is to where we are today, where actually more working-class people are voting for Donald Trump-

   30. CWChris Williamson24:45

       Hmm.
5. 27:23 – 32:12

   What Really Divides the American People?

   1. BSBernie Sanders27:23

   2. CWChris Williamson27:23

      Do you feel like, do you think America's ready for socialists like AOC and Mamdani?

   3. BSBernie Sanders27:28

      I do.

   4. CWChris Williamson27:28

      Like, really, do you think the country's ready for that?

   5. BSBernie Sanders27:30

      W- w- the answer's yes, but then you gotta define what we mean by socialism. And, you know, you come from the UK, so that word is not quite as frightening.

   6. CWChris Williamson27:36

      Mm-hmm.

   7. BSBernie Sanders27:36

      Right?

   8. CWChris Williamson27:37

      Yeah. (laughs)

   9. BSBernie Sanders27:37

      You're, you're from-

   10. CWChris Williamson27:38

       Nowhere near as frightening. No.

   11. BSBernie Sanders27:39

       All right. Um, this is what I think. I think the media and some politicians make a big deal about the divisions that exist in America, and they are real, all right? Uh, does a woman have a right to control her own body? I think yes, a majority of Americans think yes, there are a hell of a lot of people who do not think yes. There's a division there. What about guns? Do I think you have a right to have a semiautomatic rifle in your back pocket despite the fact that you beat your wife and you did all, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah? No, I don't. You know, I think we need sane, uh, uh, uh, common sense gun control legislation. Uh, other people, uh, do not, et cetera, et cetera. So there are some real divisions. I believe that regardless of your sexual orientation, you have a right to get married. A lot of people do not. But you go out, Chris, and you say to people, "Hmm, is the American healthcare system working?" What do you think people say? N-O, no. Do you think everybody in America should be entitled to healthcare as a human right? Yeah, I do. Okay, now the argument then comes do you do a British-type system, in the UK, the national health sy- uh, system there has its problems, do you do a Canadian-type system? There are various systems around the world, okay? But every single one of them has this feature. In the UK, no matter who you are, you got healthcare as a right. Is that true?

   12. CWChris Williamson29:09

       Mm-hmm.

   13. BSBernie Sanders29:10

       Okay. Same thing in Canada, same thing all over Europe. And yet in America, we got so many people uninsured or underinsured and we're spending, in the case of the UK about three times per person more than you do, Canada maybe twice as much. So what the American, th- the American people say, "Yeah, give us a healthcare system guarantees healthcare to all people that's cost-effective." There is no division there. That is what the American people want. If you ask the American people that at a time when we have massive income and wealth inequality... Now here's a fact, you tell me, I'm gonna throw it back to you, all right? I think this is, like, pretty crazy. Maybe I'm alone. Our good friend Elon Musk now owns more wealth than the bottom 52% of American households. What do you think?

   14. CWChris Williamson30:02

       Feels extreme.

   15. BSBernie Sanders30:04

       Yeah. Right. That's it. It is extreme. That one man should own more wealth than over half the households in America sounds a little bit crazy to me.

   16. CWChris Williamson30:12

       To, to make a, a comment on the way that Musk's wealth has worked, at least in the past, he has basically burned everything that he has-

   17. BSBernie Sanders30:20

       I, I know.

   18. CWChris Williamson30:20

       ... in order to restart companies over and over again.

   19. BSBernie Sanders30:23

       This is not-

   20. CWChris Williamson30:23

       PayPal got spun up and then it's-

   21. BSBernie Sanders30:25

       I, no, no, no, no. Okay, we can talk about Musk. This is not even, I'm not even, this is not even, I don't like Musk. But this is not a criticism of Musk.

   22. CWChris Williamson30:30

       Really?

   23. BSBernie Sanders30:30

       All I am talking about is this one fact. Whether you love Musk, you don't like Musk-... whoever it may be.

   24. CWChris Williamson30:36

       Mm-hmm.

   25. BSBernie Sanders30:36

       I think it's kind of insane that we have a system where so many people are struggling, this guy owns more wealth than the bottom 52%, and he's on his way to become a trillionaire.

   26. CWChris Williamson30:48

       A quick aside, I've been drinking AG1 every morning for years. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And it just got even better. AG1 next gen keeps the same simplicity, one scoop once per day, but now comes with four clinical trials backing it. In those trials, AG1 next gen was clinically shown to fill common nutrient gaps, improve key nutrient levels within three months, and increase healthy gut bacteria by 10 times even in healthy adults. Basically, they've upgraded the formula with better probiotics, more bioavailable nutrients, and clinical validation, and it's still NSF certified for sport, which means that you know the quality is legit. I actually got to meet the team that runs AG1, all of the top bods, at a off-site a couple of months ago here in Austin, and I was really impressed. They took my feedback on board, they were very receptive, and I actually think that they put some of my ideas, uh, into the product and the new marketing. So, uh, any success that you see going forward from now can be exclusively attributed, uh, to me. So, hooray for me. And if you're still unsure, they've got a 90-day money back guarantee. So you can buy it and use it every single day for three months, and if you don't like it, they'll just give you your money back. Right now, you can get a year's free supply, vitamin D3, K2, and five free AG1 travel packs, plus that 90-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinkag1.com/modernwisdom. That's drinkag1.com/modernwisdom.

6. 32:12 – 49:51

   Can Billionaires Improve the Way We Live?

   1. CWChris Williamson32:12

      What do you make of his new compensation package?

   2. BSBernie Sanders32:14

      What, giving him, uh, uh, uh-

   3. CWChris Williamson32:16

      A trillion dollars. If y- I mean, the stretch goals are unbelievably stretch. It's a, a robot in every house, a e- electric vehicle on every corner. So, uh, and this is a serious question, right, because the trillion dollar package sounds, sounds absurd, especially given the fact that you've just trotted this stat out about 52%. However, if somebody achieves unbelievable one in a trillion progress, which presumably is going to reduce carbon impact, which presumably is going to generate a lot more jobs, which presumably is going to do a lot of stuff...

   4. BSBernie Sanders32:51

      Presume, you got a lot of presumablys there. I want to talk about your presumablys.

   5. CWChris Williamson32:54

      Let's get, get in, get stuck into my presumablys.

   6. BSBernie Sanders32:56

      Okay. All right. Let's start off. Is Musk a brilliant guy? Yeah. Is he an incredibly innovative guy? Absolutely. Okay. But I don't care whether he is the world's nicest person, the world's worst person, I happen not to believe that anybody should have that much wealth when so many people are struggling. All right? That's what I believe. And I, I think that gets back to a fundamental issue as to why I am a democratic, a socialist. Look, you, you work hard, somebody works hard, they make some money, God, great, you're rich, terrific.

   7. CWChris Williamson33:28

      Mm-hmm.

   8. BSBernie Sanders33:28

      But there should be a limit. You know, you want a billion dollars? Fine. Do you really need $50 billion, $100 billion? What do you need?

   9. CWChris Williamson33:34

      I was gonna say, where does the watershed line start to kick in for you?

   10. BSBernie Sanders33:38

       I, I think most people would be happy with a billion dollars, I think.

   11. CWChris Williamson33:41

       Okay. Bernie Spidey-sense begins at $1.52 billion.

   12. BSBernie Sanders33:45

       (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson33:45

       Okay?

   14. BSBernie Sanders33:46

       Right. All right, but now you ask the next question. You say... And, and it's a very... Your point is very well taken. And, and let me paraphrase it a little bit. You're saying, all right, this guy Musk and others are coming up with these extraordinary ideas, gonna transform our world. Correct? All right. Now here's what we have to take a deep breath and ask ourselves. This is a very serious issue that we are not discussing. There was a poll done a couple of years ago by the Pew, P-E-W, Research Center. They're quite reputable. And this is what they did. They asked the American people a very simple question. This was two years ago. They said, "Do you think people like you," you're middle class, you're working class, you're rich, whatever you may be, "were better off or worse off... Are better off or worse off today than they were 50 years ago?" You got the question?

   15. CWChris Williamson34:37

       Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

   16. BSBernie Sanders34:38

       What do you think the answer was? What did people say?

   17. CWChris Williamson34:40

       Most people, most people would say no.

   18. BSBernie Sanders34:42

       Right. All right. So we've got to think about that.

   19. CWChris Williamson34:46

       Mm-hmm.

   20. BSBernie Sanders34:47

       In the last 50 years, we've sheen- seen just, right, computers. 50 year goes, there weren't computers. Cell phones-

   21. CWChris Williamson34:55

       Mm-hmm.

   22. BSBernie Sanders34:56

       ... flat screen TVs, driverless cars, all of these things. Great advances in medicine, right? You get cancer today, there's a chance you could be treated certainly in a way you could not have 50 years ago. Right?

   23. CWChris Williamson35:06

       Mm-hmm.

   24. BSBernie Sanders35:06

       Good things. All right, you tell me. Why would... And, and the answer from Pew, that research was 58% of the people said, "I think life was better for people like me 50 years ago." Why would they say that? And what does this have to say with what Musk is trying to do into the future?

   25. CWChris Williamson35:24

       Mm-hmm.

   26. BSBernie Sanders35:25

       Is that a good question?

   27. CWChris Williamson35:26

       Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is. Uh, the interesting thing there, you, you, you bring up a good point, which is ease of entertainment, uh, a n- number of different opportunities for people to be able to interact with the world around them, to learn, to be able to relax, et cetera, et cetera. So if people do think that they are worse off... Now, remember this is people feel that they're worse off.

   28. BSBernie Sanders35:48

       I know. That's good. Fair enough. Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson35:49

       Right? Intergenerational competition theory-

   30. BSBernie Sanders35:51

       Right.
7. 49:51 – 58:37

   Have Democrats Turned Their Backs on Economic Issues?

   1. BSBernie Sanders49:51

   2. CWChris Williamson49:51

      You mentioned before, uh, gay rights, women's bodies, uh, ability for people to get married, immigration. In retrospect, how much of an own goal for Democrats do you think the focus on identity politics has been?

   3. BSBernie Sanders50:08

      How m- I'm sorry. How much, I'm sorry?

   4. CWChris Williamson50:10

      An own goal or an unforced error has the focus on identity politics been?

   5. BSBernie Sanders50:14

      I would- again, you use the word unforce. I wouldn't... I- I think it has been really-

   6. CWChris Williamson50:16

      Let's go with own goal.

   7. BSBernie Sanders50:17

      Okay. I- i- this is what I think. I think fighting to make sure that women can control their own bodies and are not second-class citizens, enormously important. The need to end all forms of bigotry in this country, enormously, uh, important. But you can, you know, chew bubblegum and walk at the same time. You can fight for women's rights and fight for an economy that works for the working class of this country, not just the billionaires. It's not either or.

   8. CWChris Williamson50:47

      Mm-hmm.

   9. BSBernie Sanders50:48

      The Democrats have been strong on those social issues, identity politics, but they have not been strong in standing up for the working class of this country.

   10. CWChris Williamson50:56

       But I think, I think, I think that the focus on identity politics, unless the Democratic Party has a sane answer to questions around immigration, crime, transactivism, DEI, I think it's going to be difficult to get the electorate to resonate. I mean, look at the m- what was the most powerful ad that was run during the, the campaign? "Kamala is for they, them. Trump is for you." Uh, why did that resonate so much?

   11. BSBernie Sanders51:23

       Oh, well, you're raising another question. I don't know. Maybe you know the answer. How many people are trans in America, do you know? What percentage of the population?

   12. CWChris Williamson51:30

       It'll be, it'll be less than are gay, and that's between 1 and 3%.

   13. BSBernie Sanders51:33

       Yeah. Yeah. A tiny, tiny number of people.

   14. CWChris Williamson51:36

       So, why is so much attention being focused on that?

   15. BSBernie Sanders51:37

       I'll tell you why. Glad you asked that question. All right. What do demagogues always do? All right.

   16. CWChris Williamson51:42

       Diminish.

   17. BSBernie Sanders51:44

       That's right. All right. So, here you have a country. We have massive income and wealth inequality. We got 60% of people struggling to put food on the table. You got a climate crisis. You have the United States in recent international exams, our kids were 37th in the world in terms of Math and Science, falling far behind China-

   18. CWChris Williamson52:08

       Yeah, yeah.

   19. BSBernie Sanders52:08

       ... in terms of their educational attainments. Uh, we have a healthcare system falling apart, et cetera. Same people... Now, you may disagree with me on an issue, but we put them on the table, right? Okay, do we have a healthcare crisis? Yeah. Yes. What's your idea? Here's my idea. Argue it out. Let's do it. Correct or not correct?

   20. CWChris Williamson52:27

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   21. BSBernie Sanders52:28

       Got a housing crisis. All right. That's what Democratic with a small D-

   22. CWChris Williamson52:32

       But that was not what was focused on.

   23. BSBernie Sanders52:34

       I know. I know, know, know (imitates self) .

   24. CWChris Williamson52:36

       (laughs)

   25. BSBernie Sanders52:36

       That is what real, with a small D, democratic politics is supposed to be about.

   26. CWChris Williamson52:41

       Mm-hmm.

   27. BSBernie Sanders52:41

       How do we work together to solve those problems that we, you and I and others recognize as real problems, right?

   28. CWChris Williamson52:46

       Mm-hmm.

   29. BSBernie Sanders52:46

       Okay. What does Trump do? Trump essentially-

   30. CWChris Williamson52:49

       Uh, but come on, just on that, w- i- it doesn't need to be about what is it that Trump was focused on. This, to me, feels like an own goal. The focus was so much... Uh, this wasn't being made up out of nowhere by the Republican Party. There seemed to be things that were being said by the Dems-
8. 58:37 – 1:05:58

   Democrats Need to Start Talking About Men’s Issues

   1. BSBernie Sanders58:37

      exactly.

   2. CWChris Williamson58:37

      ... stuff. Okay. Uh, I want to talk about something that's really important to me. So, you're big into inequality, uh, as am I. I, I grew up as working class as is possible. The only thing that was famous about the town that I grew up in in the UK is it had the highest teen pregnancy rating in the UK. And then it lost that, so it didn't even have that anymore. Um, fatherlessness. Boys who grow up apart from their biological father are about two times more likely to land in prison or jail by age 30. Fatherlessness is a better predictor of incarceration than race or growing up poor. Young men are more likely to end up in prison or jail in the US than they are to graduate from college if they are raised in any non-intact family setup. Regardless of family income, children in intact families are about half as likely to be diagnosed with depression. What do you make of that?

   3. BSBernie Sanders59:27

      I make it to be a serious crisis. And I make it... Uh, I believe in family. Uh, and I believe we have got to create the conditions for young people to be good dads and good mums, uh, and to raise healthy children.

   4. CWChris Williamson59:47

      Mm-hmm. Thinking about some of the groups that you brought up today, one of the ones that's, um... Obvious in its absence is men. Uh, why have the left tended to not talk about men's issues, do you think?

   5. BSBernie Sanders1:00:04

      That's a good question, and I think... I mean, we saw it with... I, I think the underlying issue is that for a very long time, women were second-class citizens in this country. And people were saying, "Does it make sense that you have women who cannot become police officers, soldiers, carpenters, governors, presidents of the United States?" And that's wrong. If we believe in equality, we want to give everybody an equal opportunity. So, I think there was that focus on that. I think the issue you're raising is getting more discussion, and it needs far more, is that what we have seen right now in... I, I was on a plane coming from Washington back to Vermont, sitting next to a woman, and, uh, she was visiting her daughter at the University of Vermont. And we were chatting, and she mentioned to me that something like over 60% of the college...... of the kids in her daughter's class were women.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:01:01

      Correct.

   7. BSBernie Sanders1:01:01

      Okay.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:01:01

      Two women for every one man completing a four-year US college degree, basically, yeah.

   9. BSBernie Sanders1:01:05

      Is that what it is now? All right. Not a good situation.

   10. CWChris Williamson1:01:06

       Yeah. That's more, that's a bigger gap than when Title IX came in 50 years ago-

   11. BSBernie Sanders1:01:09

       All right, all right. This is-

   12. CWChris Williamson1:01:10

       ... in the other direction.

   13. BSBernie Sanders1:01:11

       This is a serious issue. And I think i- i- i- it is not incompatible to say that we believe in women's rights, the right of women to control their own body, that we don't want women to be second-class citizen, but say it the same thing, of course, we want our young men to be able to have all of the opportunities that they deserve as well.

   14. CWChris Williamson1:01:32

       Mm-hmm.

   15. BSBernie Sanders1:01:32

       And there has not been the kind of focus on that that I think, uh, needs to be.

   16. CWChris Williamson1:01:37

       Before we continue, if you haven't been feeling as sharp or energized as you'd like, getting your blood work done is the best place to start, which is why I partnered with Function, because they run lab tests twice a year that monitor over 100 biomarkers. They've got a team of expert physicians that take the data, put it in a simple dashboard, and give you actionable insights and recommendations to improve your health and lifespan. They track everything from your heart health to your hormone levels, your thyroid function and nutrient deficiencies. They even screen for 50 types of cancer at stage one, which is five times more data than you get from an annual physical. Getting your blood work drawn and analyzed like this would usually cost thousands, but with Function, it is only $500. And right now, the first 1,000 people can get an additional $100 off, meaning it's only 400 bucks. To get the exact same blood panel that I use, just go to the link in the description below or head to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. That's functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. Do you know Richard Reeves? He does the American Institute for Boys and Men. Policy wonk-

   17. BSBernie Sanders1:02:35

       I have heard of him, but I don't know.

   18. CWChris Williamson1:02:36

       Yeah, he wrote Of Boys And Men. So this is just a passage from an article he wrote a little while ago, so let me get you to react to this. "Suicide rates among men under 30 have risen by 40% since 2010, and are four times higher than among young women. Male suicides account for as many deaths as breast cancer. Men are less likely than women to go to college or to buy a home. They're more likely to be lonely and more vulnerable to addiction. Young white men from lower income homes are worse off than their fathers on almost every economic and social indicator."

   19. BSBernie Sanders1:03:00

       Yep.

   20. CWChris Williamson1:03:00

       "There is a bigger gender gap on campuses today than in 1972 when the government passed Title IX to prevent sex-based discrimination in education, but today, the disparities in college enrollment and performance are the other way around. There is no strong evidence that young men are turning against gender equality, but they have turned away from the left because the left has turned away from them. The problems of young men are not the confections of reactionaries. This is a story of elite neglect, not voter chauvinism. The Democrats have failed to address these issues. Under the Biden administration, the Centers for Disease Center Control and Prevention has refused to acknowledge the gender disparity in suicide rates. The White House Gender Policy Council has not tackled a single issue pri- primarily facing boys and men. There have been initiatives to promote me- uh, women in STEM and construction, but nothing about encouraging men into teaching or men's health. There is women's health research initiatives, but no office on men's health. The Democrats and progressive institutions have a massive blind spot when it comes to male issues, and this was exposed in the election. At worst, men are seen as not having problems, but as being the problem."

   21. BSBernie Sanders1:03:58

       Uh-

   22. CWChris Williamson1:03:59

       That was Richard. He's as policy wonky, DC fluffy as you get.

   23. BSBernie Sanders1:04:01

       I agree with much, not all of what he's saying. I think, look, here is the issue. The world, in the fight for women's equality, the world has changed. All right? 50, 60 years ago, men were the breadwinners in most households, right?

   24. CWChris Williamson1:04:18

       Mm-hmm.

   25. BSBernie Sanders1:04:18

       Men were the bosses.

   26. CWChris Williamson1:04:20

       Mm-hmm.

   27. BSBernie Sanders1:04:21

       Men made the most money. Men were the governors, men were the presidents, men were the senators. It was a man's world. That's changed. And the fact that we have fought and achieved more equality for women is a positive thing.

   28. CWChris Williamson1:04:34

       I agree.

   29. BSBernie Sanders1:04:34

       All right. But, but you're suddenly seeing, and I think half of what he says is, is very true-

   30. CWChris Williamson1:04:41

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
9. 1:05:58 – 1:08:57

   What Keeps Bernie Up at Night

   1. BSBernie Sanders1:05:58

   2. CWChris Williamson1:05:58

      I'm interested in, after however long you've been doing this, what keeps you up at night the most. After all this time, I would imagine-

   3. BSBernie Sanders1:06:08

      What keeps me, I'll tell you what keep- and literally it does. I don't sleep all that well anymore. I worry about the future of this country and whether or not we will be a democracy. I worry about a president who is a megalomaniac, who is a pathological liar, uh, and who is working at the service of oligarchs who want more and more wealth for themselves. That is precisely what keeps me up at night, and that is why I'm working as hard as I can, uh, to stop Trumpism in this country.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:06:38

      Are you hopeful about the future?

   5. BSBernie Sanders1:06:42

      Uh, on Mondays I am-

   6. CWChris Williamson1:06:44

      (laughs)

   7. BSBernie Sanders1:06:44

      ... Tuesdays I'm not, Wednesdays I am.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:06:47

      (laughs)

   9. BSBernie Sanders1:06:48

      Uh, I see some very hopeful things. Uh, yesterday-

   10. CWChris Williamson1:06:50

       Yeah.

   11. BSBernie Sanders1:06:50

       ... you know, we had some seven million people coming out-

   12. CWChris Williamson1:06:53

       Mm-hmm.

   13. BSBernie Sanders1:06:53

       ... all over this country in small towns, big cities, to say no to-

   14. CWChris Williamson1:06:57

       Mm-hmm.

   15. BSBernie Sanders1:06:57

       ... no kings in America. Uh, on the other hand, there are ominous trends, uh, which I, I worry about. I think, you know, and it's not just men, but it is, the world is changing so fast and people are worried about AI and robotics and losing their jobs. They're worried about putting food on the table. They're worried about climate and other issues. And you got a president out there who's taking advantage of that and saying, "You know what? What you really need is a strong guy. I'll take care of everything. We really don't need a democratic form of society." That worries me very much.

   16. CWChris Williamson1:07:33

       Mm. I wonder what the appropriate way to counterbalance that is in three years time, two, two and a half years time.

   17. BSBernie Sanders1:07:44

       Well, I think, uh, we have got to develop, uh, a strong grassroots movement in this country to understand that under our constitution, power rests with the people, uh, not with a, uh, guy who wants more and more power for himself. But this is, you know, you talked earlier about maybe every generation says this is the most, this is a very pivotal moment in American history, but I am confident that if we do not allow Trump to divide us up based on the color of our skin or our sexual orientation or where we were born, the American people are decent. I've had the privilege and the honor of being in every state in this country. I've talked to literally millions of people. We are a good people. Most people believe in justice. Most people are not bigots. Most people believe in democracy. Most people believe that we should have an economy and a government that work for all of us. It's going to take a lot of work to bring that about, but it's what I do. On that note, I think I gotta get going. Is that all right?

   18. CWChris Williamson1:08:44

       Senator Bernie Sanders, ladies and gentlemen, I appreciate you.

   19. BSBernie Sanders1:08:46

       Well, thank you very much, Chris Andrew. (instrumental music plays)

   20. CWChris Williamson1:08:49

       Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, you will love this one with the one and only Tulsi Gabbard. Come on, press it.

Episode duration: 1:08:57