Who Is Titania McGrath? | Andrew Doyle

1. 0:00 – 1:04

   Intro

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      Twitter cracks and crumbles at our feet as the man behind Titania McGrath, Andrew Doyle, joins me on Modern Wisdom. Let's say that someone hasn't seen the Titania account, how would you describe it?

   2. ADAndrew Doyle0:09

      I would describe it as a kind of social justice activist who is very humorless, is desperate to be offended, desperate to promote her own victimhood, and is not necessarily stupid, but has, has swallowed this ideology to the extent that they stop being able to think for themselves.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:23

      Questions for Titania, how would she answer? Let's see how we get on.

   4. ADAndrew Doyle0:27

      All right.

   5. CWChris Williamson0:27

      Number one, are all cats feminists? Which is the most oppressive vegetable?

   6. ADAndrew Doyle0:33

      It's like when Little Mix tweeted about the bombing of Syria.

   7. CWChris Williamson0:35

      (laughs)

   8. ADAndrew Doyle0:35

      They sent an apology saying that, "Oh, we're so sorry to the people of Syria." Bet the people of Syria were thinking, "Great, at least Little Mix have got our back." Look, I'm not saying these people shouldn't have a, the right to have an opinion. Of course they do, but I don't give a shit what Little Mix think about Syria. We are living in a culture where people are self-censoring out of fear of either what your peers will say, what the people on social media are gonna do to you. You know, in the UK, we have a horrible situation where we have hate speech laws that have led to people being imprisoned for jokes they've written on Facebook.

2. 1:04 – 4:37

   Welcome

   1. CWChris Williamson1:04

      Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back. Twitter cracks and crumbles at our feet as the man behind Titania McGrath, Andrew Doyle, joins me on Modern Wisdom. Andrew, welcome to the show.

   2. ADAndrew Doyle1:13

      Such a dramatic opening.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:14

      I know.

   4. ADAndrew Doyle1:15

      Yeah, it's almost apocalyptic. I like it.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:16

      It's kind of appropriate though, right?

   6. ADAndrew Doyle1:18

      Uh, well, I don't know. Like a deus ex machina who've sort of descended from the heavens.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:22

      That's exactly why you're here.

   8. ADAndrew Doyle1:23

      Yeah, I just got the train.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:25

      (laughs)

   10. ADAndrew Doyle1:25

       It's not, it's not as, it's not as exciting.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:27

       Yeah, like a phoenix from the ashes.

   12. ADAndrew Doyle1:29

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:30

       So how have you been the last few weeks?

   14. ADAndrew Doyle1:32

       I'm all right. I'm just a bit knackered 'cause I was out with a friend late last night, really late.

   15. CWChris Williamson1:35

       Yeah, but-

   16. ADAndrew Doyle1:36

       Um-

   17. CWChris Williamson1:36

       ... fully functioning?

   18. ADAndrew Doyle1:37

       I'm all right. He gi- he was over from Sweden, so I didn't have a choice, I had to stay.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:40

       (laughs)

   20. ADAndrew Doyle1:40

       Um, but, yeah, I'm, uh, yeah, I'm good, but I've been all over the place. I've been back and forth various places. I'm not a good traveler, I get really tired, so-

   21. CWChris Williamson1:46

       Okay.

   22. ADAndrew Doyle1:46

       ... I, I'm just, yeah. So if I'm a bit frazzled, that's why.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:50

       Totally fine.

   24. ADAndrew Doyle1:51

       And that's good because that means anything I say that's inappropriate, I can blame on my condition.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:55

       Fatigue.

   26. ADAndrew Doyle1:55

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson1:56

       100%.

   28. ADAndrew Doyle1:56

       Yeah. That's good.

   29. CWChris Williamson1:56

       100%. Um, so you're Fringing, plus Londoning, and Musing, and tweeting, and doing all this sort of stuff at the moment?

   30. ADAndrew Doyle2:03

       Yeah, so I've got, the Titania McGrath Show is on, uh, during the Fringe at the moment, but I'm not there most of the time, um, but I've got my own stand-up show which starts on Monday.
3. 4:37 – 6:03

   Twitter bans

   1. ADAndrew Doyle4:37

      this is me. I can say anything." Some of the early tweets were really vile, actually.

   2. CWChris Williamson4:41

      (laughs)

   3. ADAndrew Doyle4:41

      And, um, were really, um, just, just sometimes just provocative for its own sake.

   4. CWChris Williamson4:47

      Yeah.

   5. ADAndrew Doyle4:48

      Um, and you won't see them anymore because I had to de- delete them all, um...

   6. CWChris Williamson4:53

      Oh, no.

   7. ADAndrew Doyle4:53

      But what would happen is I'd get a s- I got a couple of one-day bans, then I got a seven-day ban, then I got another seven-day ban, um, and I thought, "Well, you know, the..." And then at one point, it must have been around September, something like that, I don't know, she got k- permanent banned.

   8. CWChris Williamson5:08

      Mm-hmm.

   9. ADAndrew Doyle5:08

      So Twitter said, they emailed saying, "You are permanently suspended. You can't come back."

   10. CWChris Williamson5:13

       (laughs)

   11. ADAndrew Doyle5:14

       And then there was a big uproar on Twitter, all these sort of prominent people complaining to Twitter.

   12. CWChris Williamson5:18

       Yeah.

   13. ADAndrew Doyle5:18

       And then Twitter brought her back again.

   14. CWChris Williamson5:20

       'Cause there's a provision on Twitter for satirical accounts, right?

   15. ADAndrew Doyle5:25

       Yeah, of course, yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson5:25

       Like a protection kind of thing if, as long as you, as long as it's apparent that it is-

   17. ADAndrew Doyle5:29

       Yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson5:30

       ... you can kind of get away with more.

   19. ADAndrew Doyle5:31

       Right. So their rule is if you, if you've got a parody account, which is a specific mocking of another person, you have to put parody in your bio.

   20. CWChris Williamson5:38

       Okay.

   21. ADAndrew Doyle5:38

       This isn't a parody account, it's a satire account. I'm not, I'm not parodying a particular person.

   22. CWChris Williamson5:42

       Oh, okay. Yeah, that's interesting.

   23. ADAndrew Doyle5:43

       So, um, I'm, uh, and people often don't understand that difference between satire-

   24. CWChris Williamson5:47

       Yeah.

   25. ADAndrew Doyle5:47

       ... and parody, so it's a different thing. Um, but there is provision that Twitter ostensibly in their rules say that's okay, you should be allowed to do that.

   26. CWChris Williamson5:54

       Mm-hmm.

   27. ADAndrew Doyle5:55

       Um, but they found some of the language and some of the imagery, I suppose, a bit unpleasant.... and then completely banned her, uh, or they took it literally.

4. 6:03 – 14:10

   The full ban

   1. ADAndrew Doyle6:03

      I don't know.

   2. CWChris Williamson6:03

      Can, can you remember what the tweet was that was the full ban? What-

   3. ADAndrew Doyle6:06

      The full ban was I'd been, uh, she was saying that she was going to a UKIP march to punch people in the name of tolerance.

   4. CWChris Williamson6:12

      (laughs)

   5. ADAndrew Doyle6:12

      And that was all it was. And I imagine that was probably just incitement to violence, maybe? I don't know.

   6. CWChris Williamson6:19

      I guess so, yeah. Didn't you incite violence against yourself last night?

   7. ADAndrew Doyle6:22

      Yeah, I did!

   8. CWChris Williamson6:23

      (laughs)

   9. ADAndrew Doyle6:23

      Are you following me on Twitter?

   10. CWChris Williamson6:24

       (laughs)

   11. ADAndrew Doyle6:25

       Wow. Yeah, I did, 'cause I, I can't remember what I did now. I was drunk. What was it?

   12. CWChris Williamson6:30

       So... (laughs) I'll tell you.

   13. ADAndrew Doyle6:32

       Okay.

   14. CWChris Williamson6:32

       The Titania account retweeted your show flyer-

   15. ADAndrew Doyle6:36

       That's it.

   16. CWChris Williamson6:36

       ... and said, um, "This imposter is doing a show in the same, uh, place as me, immediately after me-"

   17. ADAndrew Doyle6:44

       Yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson6:44

       "... at Edinburgh. Um, go see it. Bring milkshakes."

   19. ADAndrew Doyle6:48

       Ah, yeah. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course I did.

   20. CWChris Williamson6:50

       And then you tweeted that saying, "Can I incite violence against myself?"

   21. ADAndrew Doyle6:53

       Yeah, and then she replied to that.

   22. CWChris Williamson6:55

       I didn't see that one.

   23. ADAndrew Doyle6:56

       Oh, yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson6:56

       I was a- I was asleep by then.

   25. ADAndrew Doyle6:57

       I th- I start-

   26. CWChris Williamson6:57

       I think you probably should've been asleep.

   27. ADAndrew Doyle6:58

       I started having a conversation with myself. (laughs)

   28. CWChris Williamson7:01

       We all do that, Andrew. It's fine.

   29. ADAndrew Doyle7:02

       I know. I did that at the time before people knew it was me. I had like-

   30. CWChris Williamson7:06

       Would you call her out about-
5. 14:10 – 17:00

   The battle cry of the politically homeless

   1. ADAndrew Doyle14:10

      actually.

   2. CWChris Williamson14:10

      Yeah. I agree. One of the things that's interesting, so for me, I'm not massively political. I'm a red-blooded capitalist, and have worked for myself as a sovereign individual since I was, like, 18.

   3. ADAndrew Doyle14:20

      Okay.

   4. CWChris Williamson14:21

      So my, um, exposure to the world of politics is very, very, uh, focused on myself.

   5. ADAndrew Doyle14:30

      Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson14:30

      Uh, my vote, if I was to vote, which I haven't in any of... I've never voted once.

   7. ADAndrew Doyle14:35

      Really?

   8. CWChris Williamson14:35

      N- no. Never once, as an educated guy. I've always been away on holiday-

   9. ADAndrew Doyle14:39

      Outrageous.

   10. CWChris Williamson14:39

       ... or I'm busy with work or doing whatever it is. But if I was to vote, one of the first things that would come up would be, how does this affect my interests?

   11. ADAndrew Doyle14:46

       Okay. Okay.

   12. CWChris Williamson14:47

       And there was a-

   13. ADAndrew Doyle14:48

       You're a capitalist. Fine. So you are political.

   14. CWChris Williamson14:50

       Okay. Fair enough.

   15. ADAndrew Doyle14:51

       (laughs)

   16. CWChris Williamson14:51

       Yeah.

   17. NANarrator14:51

       (laughs)

   18. CWChris Williamson14:52

       Perfect. Um, you tweeted an article, which I read earlier on, which has really broken down a lot of the things I wish that I could understand (laughs) . Uh, Bridget Phetasy?

   19. ADAndrew Doyle15:00

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson15:00

       Um, and it's called The Battle Cry of the Politically Homeless, and what she says is that people who don't have extremist views on either sides of the spectrum-

   21. ADAndrew Doyle15:10

       Yes.

   22. CWChris Williamson15:10

       ... or people who just aren't bothered about politics kind of get lambasted as being these wasteful vote... What is it? A cook-servative.

   23. ADAndrew Doyle15:18

       Yeah. Yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson15:19

       Um, uh, and a, a waste of a vote, and then on top of that, anyone who is but is moderate-

   25. ADAndrew Doyle15:24

       Yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson15:24

       ... anyone who has a slightly nuanced view-

   27. ADAndrew Doyle15:26

       Yeah.

   28. CWChris Williamson15:26

       ... just gets sort of thrown to the wayside. And I think that with Titania, what you're identifying is that the people who are the absolute extremes-

   29. ADAndrew Doyle15:34

       Yeah. Exactly.

   30. CWChris Williamson15:35

       ... that's, it is funny for that reason, that people can identify, well, most people, the vast majority of people-
6. 17:00 – 18:59

   What is a bigot

   1. ADAndrew Doyle17:00

      uh, cannot see beyond their own very narrow, sort of, parameters. And if you step outside that, particularly if you come from the left, like I do, and you step outside it just a little bit, you are the most, you're the persona non grata. You're the, you're the one they attack.

   2. CWChris Williamson17:13

      Pushed straight down the hill.

   3. ADAndrew Doyle17:14

      Yeah. Yeah. And, and, uh, and, and so s- people who have moderate views, people who just want to have a discussion about some of these difficult issues, they want to address the nuance of, say, the trans debate.

   4. CWChris Williamson17:26

      (clears throat)

   5. ADAndrew Doyle17:26

      Um, they will just be, uh, lambasted as bigots. But the big irony with this is, these people don't know what the word bigot means. I mean, the definition of bigot is someone who is incapable or, or completely intolerant of anyone else's opinion, someone who has a different opinion.

   6. CWChris Williamson17:41

      Mm-hmm.

   7. ADAndrew Doyle17:41

      But they, the people... So nine times out of 10, anyone who calls you a bigot is normally the bigot.

   8. CWChris Williamson17:45

      (laughs)

   9. ADAndrew Doyle17:45

      Because what they're saying is, "Your opinion shouldn't be allowed."

   10. CWChris Williamson17:48

       Yeah.

   11. ADAndrew Doyle17:49

       Uh, it shouldn't, you know, we shouldn't have to, it shouldn't be tolerated. So yeah, it's a real problem. Bridget's been on the receiving end of it. Um, a, a lot of us have now, and of course, what happens as well is, if you express an opinion that isn't within that Overton window of acceptable thought, um, people just say, "Well, you're being dishonest. You're being a provocateur. You're being a shock jock." Because it's a kind of narcissistic world view that, "I can't believe that someone else would have a different view than me, therefore this must be a lie."

   12. CWChris Williamson18:16

       Yeah.

   13. ADAndrew Doyle18:16

       Right? So, I mean, my, my, my...... I suppose my guiding principle, uh, is just to tell the truth, say what I think-

   14. CWChris Williamson18:25

       Yes.

   15. ADAndrew Doyle18:25

       ... uh, and see what happens, right?

   16. CWChris Williamson18:28

       Mm-hmm.

   17. ADAndrew Doyle18:28

       And I, if everyone did that, can you imagine? We'd be in a-

   18. CWChris Williamson18:30

       It would be cool.

   19. ADAndrew Doyle18:31

       ... we'd be in a much better position, wouldn't we?

   20. CWChris Williamson18:32

       Yeah. Well, th- th- you know, Jordan Peterson, who is a, a fan favorite of the show, um, he, his first rule, tell the truth, or at least do not lie.

   21. ADAndrew Doyle18:42

       He makes a point in his book a- about this actually, that it's actually very self-destructive to be dishonest.

   22. CWChris Williamson18:47

       Mm-hmm.

   23. ADAndrew Doyle18:47

       Uh, and when I read that, it really chimed with me. I think that's absolutely right. The, the, you're hurting yourself-

   24. CWChris Williamson18:52

       Yeah.

   25. ADAndrew Doyle18:52

       ... if you're, if you're dishonest. Um, and he also makes the point that absolutely there are times when lying is actually the compassionate thing to do, right?

7. 18:59 – 21:58

   Lying is compassionate

   1. ADAndrew Doyle18:59

   2. CWChris Williamson18:59

      Mm-hmm.

   3. ADAndrew Doyle18:59

      Fine. Um, but actually there's a way to do just evading the truth, as in you don't have to-

   4. CWChris Williamson19:03

      Lies of omission, not lies of commission.

   5. ADAndrew Doyle19:06

      Yeah, yeah. If, if it's for a compassionate reason-

   6. CWChris Williamson19:08

      Yeah.

   7. ADAndrew Doyle19:08

      ... that make, that makes sense to me. Um, but I think when it comes to just expressing your opinions and views, it's all about respecting people enough to tell them the truth. As in I, I, I can respect you, I can say something that I think you might disagree with, because I respect you enough as a human being not to, that I assume you're not gonna start throwing things and call me a Nazi, right?

   8. CWChris Williamson19:27

      Mm-hmm.

   9. ADAndrew Doyle19:27

      You're gonna have a debate and you're gonna have a discussion.

   10. CWChris Williamson19:29

       Yeah.

   11. ADAndrew Doyle19:29

       It's actually really disrespectful to say what you think the popular viewpoint is, uh, just for the sake of other people's, uh, um, sensibilities.

   12. CWChris Williamson19:38

       Mm-hmm.

   13. ADAndrew Doyle19:38

       That's actually very disrespectful to them because you're patronizing them.

   14. CWChris Williamson19:41

       Mm-hmm.

   15. ADAndrew Doyle19:41

       You're infantilizing them. You're saying that you wouldn't be able to cope with dissent.

   16. CWChris Williamson19:44

       Mm-hmm.

   17. ADAndrew Doyle19:44

       You know, it's a bit like being at school. You know, when you're at school, like, it's a particular thing with boys at school is that you won't say an opinion unless you're sure everyone else agrees, right?

   18. CWChris Williamson19:52

       Holds it. Yeah.

   19. ADAndrew Doyle19:52

       Right? Uh, and sometimes you're, you're, you, this happens to me all the time. You must have happened to you, like when you were a kid and someone said something and everyone was like, "Oh no, we don't think that, do we?"

   20. CWChris Williamson20:00

       Yeah.

   21. ADAndrew Doyle20:01

       And then it's like, "Oh, no, I didn't mean that."

   22. CWChris Williamson20:02

       Yeah. Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, yeah.

   23. ADAndrew Doyle20:04

       I actually saw a stand-up doing a bit about this this year, where he's talking about he, when, when a, a, a situation arises in the news and he, he offers an opinion a bit too early when it's not formed, and then he's like, "Oh no, can I take that back?" Right?

   24. CWChris Williamson20:16

       Yeah.

   25. ADAndrew Doyle20:16

       And which is what teenagers do. This isn't a teenage act, by the way, but it, but that's what teenagers do, and it's that thing of, well, actually, we'd all be better off being honest. It'd be, it, it... We'd know who we were voting for. We'd know what people think and we'd know where we stand.

   26. CWChris Williamson20:29

       Mm-hmm.

   27. ADAndrew Doyle20:29

       We'd have our views challenged. There's all sorts of reasons, uh, why honesty is a good thing. But no matter how many times I say that, it doesn't matter. People just say, "Yeah, you're lying. You're just lying because you want to cause trouble or whatever." And, and that's really sad.

   28. CWChris Williamson20:40

       I know. Anyone who wants to read a very good short book on lying, Sam Harris's Lying, one hour, one-hour read.

   29. ADAndrew Doyle20:47

       Okay, I haven't read that.

   30. CWChris Williamson20:48

       And it is a one-hour justification for why you should never lie.
8. 21:58 – 25:22

   Reducing difficult discussions to easy shortcuts

   1. ADAndrew Doyle21:58

      Well, we haven't left.

   2. CWChris Williamson21:58

      Well, okay.

   3. ADAndrew Doyle21:59

      It's that, it's that, it's that reductive thing-

   4. CWChris Williamson22:01

      Yeah.

   5. ADAndrew Doyle22:01

      ... of reducing actually a very complicated, nuanced political question to an easy, uh, shortcut, you know?

   6. CWChris Williamson22:08

      Why do you think that people are doing that at the moment? Why are people reducing down difficult discussions to these real tweet length?

   7. ADAndrew Doyle22:15

      There's a good psychological reason. There's a thing called the cognitive miser model, which means that you, you instinctively, uh, try and find the easiest train of thought. Your mind, that, you'll, you'll always go for the easiest. It actually takes a bit of effort, uh, to think about things. Um, if, if you've got this situation, for instance, with the Brexit vote, and you can just say, "Well, that side's good and that side's evil," well, it's easy, it's an easy choice to make. Otherwise you have to start understanding the issues.

   8. CWChris Williamson22:38

      (laughs)

   9. ADAndrew Doyle22:38

      It's a whole lot harder.

   10. CWChris Williamson22:39

       (laughs)

   11. ADAndrew Doyle22:40

       I get that. Um, and, uh, yeah, it's started, it's happened a lot. It happened with Trump, uh, it's happening now with, with, uh, with Boris Johnson. So there's gonna be... It's the same thing again. It's are you a good person? And this is why the polls never work anymore. This is why no one predicted Trump, no one predicted Brexit. It never works, because people have their opinions. They have, they have two sets of opinions. They've got the opinions that they actually feel-

   12. CWChris Williamson23:03

       Mm-hmm.

   13. ADAndrew Doyle23:03

       ... and they've got the opinions that they know they can express in public.

   14. CWChris Williamson23:05

       (laughs)

   15. ADAndrew Doyle23:06

       Right? And those two are no longer the same.

   16. CWChris Williamson23:08

       Yeah.

   17. ADAndrew Doyle23:08

       It used to be the case that they were the same. I remember talking to an old trade unionist about this. He was saying that, "You know, we used to be able to talk to, like, some of the miners and everything, uh, about..." And they would be really homophobic. They'd say like, uh, you know, they hate fags and all this sort of... They wouldn't use fags. They'd say queers back then when they were faggots.

   18. CWChris Williamson23:22

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   19. ADAndrew Doyle23:23

       Um, but, you know, but they were right on all these other issues. And rather than baulk at that and say, "Oh, well, you're obviously a fascist. I won't talk to you about anything."

   20. CWChris Williamson23:30

       Mm-hmm.

   21. ADAndrew Doyle23:31

       Uh, this guy was saying, "Well, what I'd say to them is, 'Well, okay, you're right about these social issues and these economic issues, so can we now talk about your issues about sexuality?'" And, and, and then it became a discussion, and then people changed their minds.

   22. CWChris Williamson23:42

       Mm-hmm.

   23. ADAndrew Doyle23:42

       And that was the, that was a great thing to happen, right?

   24. CWChris Williamson23:45

       Mm-hmm.

   25. ADAndrew Doyle23:45

       But now if, say for instance, you've got one opinion that is not acceptable. Say you are, uh, anti-abortion, right? So that, for, for many leftists, is, like, one of the, the sins.

   26. CWChris Williamson23:57

       Cardinal sin.

   27. ADAndrew Doyle23:58

       Right? So if you're in that, then, then suddenly we, we write off you, we write you off completely.

   28. CWChris Williamson24:02

       Yeah.

   29. ADAndrew Doyle24:03

       So even if we agree on other things, it doesn't matter anymore. You're now the bad person. You're now an evil person. Um, it's really unsophisticated.

   30. CWChris Williamson24:10

       Yeah, it is.
9. 25:22 – 29:06

   No one gets their own principles

   1. ADAndrew Doyle25:22

      never would.

   2. CWChris Williamson25:22

      Like this tiny little sliver-

   3. ADAndrew Doyle25:23

      They're correct about that.

   4. CWChris Williamson25:24

      ... of what they're saying.

   5. ADAndrew Doyle25:25

      No one gets their own principles, right? So a principle is either right or it's wrong.

   6. CWChris Williamson25:29

      Mm-hmm.

   7. ADAndrew Doyle25:29

      Okay? So you, you should be able to say, "I, I don't approve of anything that person says or does, but on that they're right."

   8. CWChris Williamson25:38

      Mm-hmm.

   9. ADAndrew Doyle25:39

      Because they don't own the principle.

   10. CWChris Williamson25:40

       There's no more room for nuance or-

   11. ADAndrew Doyle25:42

       No, not at all.

   12. CWChris Williamson25:43

       ... certainty in discussions, no. So (clears throat) the thing that keeps coming back to me... And again, I'm probably a good avatar for the layperson when it comes to seeing these things, right?

   13. ADAndrew Doyle25:50

       Yes.

   14. CWChris Williamson25:50

       Because I'm not embroiled in them and it's, it's not-

   15. ADAndrew Doyle25:53

       Good for you.

   16. CWChris Williamson25:53

       I know (laughs) . It must feel like it would be heaven for you, right? Um, looking from the outside in-

   17. ADAndrew Doyle25:58

       Yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson25:59

       ... people who are getting upset at the fact-

   19. ADAndrew Doyle26:02

       (clears throat)

   20. CWChris Williamson26:02

       ... that you're making comedy at these situations, to me-

   21. ADAndrew Doyle26:04

       Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson26:04

       ... that is potentially the most shocking thing of all, because Armando Iannucci must be itching his scripts to have a go at Brexit and Boris Johnson with another season of The Thick Of It. And there must be... You know, there must... It is the-

   23. ADAndrew Doyle26:17

       I think he said he could never do The Thick Of It again. There was an article a couple years ago, because of, because he says things have got too surreal.

   24. CWChris Williamson26:23

       Well, yeah, there we go. But do you... You know what I mean? Like, to me it looks like the perfect breeding ground. The current political climate is the perfect breeding ground for some comedy and some satire.

   25. ADAndrew Doyle26:32

       Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. It's, it's ideal. Um, p- people often say that to me, it's like, "Isn't it hard to satirize?" Like people like Trump who, who is self-satirizing. The funniest things said about Trump are by himself, right?

   26. CWChris Williamson26:44

       (laughs)

   27. ADAndrew Doyle26:44

       They're on his Twitter feed.

   28. CWChris Williamson26:45

       (laughs) Yeah, you're right.

   29. ADAndrew Doyle26:46

       You know, I mean, um, two days ago with, uh, Tlaib, you know, the, the thing about Rashida Tlaib, who'd, um, who writes... Sorry, I'm talking politics again, but she-

   30. CWChris Williamson26:53

       It's fine, fair enough.
10. 29:06 – 31:47

    Playing by their rules

    1. CWChris Williamson29:06

       Um, one of the things that I've been thinking about when seeing the way that... We recently had Zuby on the show.

    2. ADAndrew Doyle29:11

       Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson29:11

       Um, because of this weird game playing-

    4. ADAndrew Doyle29:16

       Yeah.

    5. CWChris Williamson29:16

       ... that the left's done with, uh, language and social constructs and things like that.

    6. ADAndrew Doyle29:21

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson29:22

       To me, what it appears to have allowed are very clever people to game that system-

    8. ADAndrew Doyle29:28

       Right.

    9. CWChris Williamson29:29

       ... and Zuby's tweet about, um, breaking the woman's deadlift record-

    10. ADAndrew Doyle29:34

        Yeah.

    11. CWChris Williamson29:34

        ... "PS I identified as a woman, don't be a bigot."

    12. ADAndrew Doyle29:36

        Yeah.

    13. CWChris Williamson29:36

        That is a perfect example of re-gaming this... The, the little gaps that have been created-

    14. ADAndrew Doyle29:42

        Yeah. Yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson29:42

        ... by the left in that.

    16. ADAndrew Doyle29:43

        Yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson29:44

        Is that one of the, one of the things that you think that, um, is helping us to identify where there's inconsistencies within their views and stuff like that?

    18. ADAndrew Doyle29:52

        I think ridicule is what does it best of all.

    19. CWChris Williamson29:54

        Yeah.

    20. ADAndrew Doyle29:54

        And, and, and part of the way you do that is you take on board their language.

    21. CWChris Williamson29:57

        Mm-hmm.

    22. ADAndrew Doyle29:57

        The problem with that is you find yourself tempted to play their... them by their rules. So when they talk about privilege and all of th-... I've seen this happen a lot. When there's an argument about privilege, and they often throw out this idea of white privilege, this blanket idea that if you're white, you are inherently privileged, which of course is not true. Uh, some white people are privileged, some aren't-

    23. CWChris Williamson30:14

        Mm-hmm.

    24. ADAndrew Doyle30:14

        ... right? In all sorts of ways. There's all kinds of ways you can be privileged, right? It's not just to do with race, ethnicity and sexuality. Um, but yeah, so you end up with a situation where, um...... people buy into the victimhood thing, and they'll say, "Okay. I've been accused of being privileged, so how can I come back and say, 'Actually, you know, I, I went to a rough school. I we- grew up on an estate. I did..." Righty, righty, right? And then you're getting into this com- You're playing their rules-

    25. CWChris Williamson30:37

        Yes.

    26. ADAndrew Doyle30:38

        ... back at them, and that's probably not healthy, you know?

    27. CWChris Williamson30:40

        Mm-hmm.

    28. ADAndrew Doyle30:41

        You can do it. Like, you can... And when they fall foul of their own rules, which they often do, right? Did you see the, the Democrat conference in America where someone made a point of personal privilege, yeah?

    29. CWChris Williamson30:51

        Yeah.

    30. ADAndrew Doyle30:51

        And the point of personal privilege w- was, "Guys, can you just keep the voi- noise down? Because I'm very sensitive, I get sensory overload and I get triggered." Then someone said, "Point of personal privilege back to that point of personal privilege. Uh, don't say 'guys.' That's gendered language, I'm really offended by that. Don't do that." So you have people calling out each other's calling out. It's like this endless inception of wokeness, right?
11. 31:47 – 34:20

    Push and pull

    1. ADAndrew Doyle31:47

       game.

    2. CWChris Williamson31:47

       So that's, that's something that I've been... I've got written down here as something that I totally can't work out, but you're gonna help me do.

    3. ADAndrew Doyle31:53

       Okay.

    4. CWChris Williamson31:53

       You may have been in a relationship, but a lot of listeners will have been, where your partner brings up a particular issue.

    5. ADAndrew Doyle32:00

       Yeah.

    6. CWChris Williamson32:00

       You don't care about this issue.

    7. ADAndrew Doyle32:01

       Okay.

    8. CWChris Williamson32:02

       That you spoke to that girl, or, um, you didn't reply in time, or you're, you were late, or something like that.

    9. ADAndrew Doyle32:10

       Yes.

    10. CWChris Williamson32:10

        And that's not an issue that you usually would do, but they set a precedent by doing that.

    11. ADAndrew Doyle32:14

        Yeah.

    12. CWChris Williamson32:15

        And then what you find yourself doing, next time that something happens that you find them culpable for that same thing for-

    13. ADAndrew Doyle32:22

        Yeah.

    14. CWChris Williamson32:22

        ... is you go, "Hang on a second, are you talking to that guy?"

    15. ADAndrew Doyle32:25

        Yeah.

    16. CWChris Williamson32:25

        "I didn't care, and I still don't care, but I'm going to use the opportunity to identify your inconsistency-"

    17. ADAndrew Doyle32:31

        Okay. Yeah, that's fine.

    18. CWChris Williamson32:31

        "... straight off the bat."

    19. ADAndrew Doyle32:32

        Yeah.

    20. CWChris Williamson32:32

        And that push and pull-

    21. ADAndrew Doyle32:34

        Yeah.

    22. CWChris Williamson32:34

        ... that happens in relationships, I think is very similar to what's happening here.

    23. ADAndrew Doyle32:39

        Yeah.

    24. CWChris Williamson32:39

        And I almost think that looking at the way that the left has, kind of, adopted this... The way that, uh, Andy Ngo was assaulted in the street-

    25. ADAndrew Doyle32:47

        Yeah.

    26. CWChris Williamson32:47

        ... and they're taking bike lots around and throwing milkshakes at people. You know, that would have been a characteristic of the right previously.

    27. ADAndrew Doyle32:54

        Oh, absolutely.

    28. CWChris Williamson32:55

        A very aggressive approach.

    29. ADAndrew Doyle32:56

        Right.

    30. CWChris Williamson32:56

        And it's almost like they're, um, absorbing, taking on that persona, that push and pull thing. And then you think well, hang on a second. If you keep on doing that as the left and throwing bike locks around, there are some people on the right who have got very, very large guns.
12. 34:20 – 37:43

    Antifascists

    1. ADAndrew Doyle34:20

       there's hardly any fascists out there, so the assumption-

    2. CWChris Williamson34:21

       It's like being an anti-dog shagger.

    3. ADAndrew Doyle34:23

       Yeah, exactly, exactly. You don't declare that, do you?

    4. CWChris Williamson34:25

       Yeah.

    5. ADAndrew Doyle34:26

       You don't declare that you don't have a predilection to penetrate livestock, do you?

    6. CWChris Williamson34:30

       (laughs)

    7. ADAndrew Doyle34:30

       Do you? I don't know.

    8. CWChris Williamson34:31

       No. (laughs)

    9. ADAndrew Doyle34:31

       And I wouldn't assume that you would have.

    10. CWChris Williamson34:34

        Yeah.

    11. ADAndrew Doyle34:35

        You know? Although now we're talking about it, my suspicions are... No, you see... But look... And I see it on Twitter all the time, "Anti-fa-..." "Proud anti-fascist." Like, you don't need to tell me that.

    12. CWChris Williamson34:42

        Mm-hmm.

    13. ADAndrew Doyle34:43

        And it makes me suspicious, right? (laughs)

    14. CWChris Williamson34:44

        Mm-hmm. What you're projecting about.

    15. ADAndrew Doyle34:45

        Yeah, exactly.

    16. CWChris Williamson34:46

        It's the same as the, the people who... There's a statistic somewhere that Yousef, one of the co-hosts of the show has put out.

    17. ADAndrew Doyle34:51

        Yeah.

    18. CWChris Williamson34:51

        People that are very, very, sort of, vitriolic about, um, being against gays-

    19. ADAndrew Doyle34:56

        Yeah.

    20. CWChris Williamson34:56

        ... are the ones that are most aroused when they see, like-

    21. ADAndrew Doyle34:58

        Yeah, there's been studies into that.

    22. CWChris Williamson35:00

        Yeah.

    23. ADAndrew Doyle35:00

        There's been studies. I mean, they, they literally measured the extent of people's arousal-

    24. CWChris Williamson35:04

        Yeah.

    25. ADAndrew Doyle35:04

        ... you know, to... Like, how hard they got, basically.

    26. CWChris Williamson35:06

        Yeah.

    27. ADAndrew Doyle35:07

        On the b- And, and it tended to be when, when the, the most overtly homophobic people watched gay porn.

    28. CWChris Williamson35:14

        (laughs)

    29. ADAndrew Doyle35:14

        It's so... It's... But it's such a no-brainer.

    30. CWChris Williamson35:16

        (laughs)
13. 37:43 – 40:31

    Trump hangover

    1. ADAndrew Doyle37:43

       It was unjust. Um, what they should've done, now obviously all this stems from an ar- from an article he wrote, or a couple of articles he wrote for Quillette.

    2. CWChris Williamson37:50

       Mm-hmm.

    3. ADAndrew Doyle37:50

       What you do in that case, if you disagree with a journalist, is you go up to them and say, "Oh, I disagree with this. Can we have a discussion about it?"

    4. CWChris Williamson37:55

       Mm-hmm.

    5. ADAndrew Doyle37:56

       That's it. And as soon as you hit someone on the basis of, "Oh, they are normalising," uh, "supremacist language or discourse," you, you know, you over-theorize to justify your own violent acts.

    6. CWChris Williamson38:07

       Yeah.

    7. ADAndrew Doyle38:07

       And it can't be justified.

    8. CWChris Williamson38:09

       Mm-hmm.

    9. ADAndrew Doyle38:09

       Um, and it's really, really sad that we've got to this point where this is happening.

    10. CWChris Williamson38:14

        Is all of this just reaction? Is it still this big hangover from Trump being elected?

    11. ADAndrew Doyle38:20

        Partly. I mean, I'm sure there's a frustration, um, about it. Trump, I s- I suppose, was the start of it, wasn't it? The... And because people just decided that he was a fascist 'cause they didn't really know what fascist meant. Um, you know, he said a lot of stuff that I find contemptible, and a, a lot of stuff that I think you would be hard pushed. I think when he talked about Ilhan Omar and the squad, you know, and said, "Send them home," or they can go, they should just go home, I mean, three of the four were born in America, they were born in America, and the fourth is a US citizen anyway, right? It's difficult for me to see how that can be, uh, interpreted as anything other than a racist trope, actually.

    12. CWChris Williamson38:56

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    13. ADAndrew Doyle38:57

        Um, so, but this does not necessarily mean he's a white supremacist. That's a massive leap-

    14. CWChris Williamson39:02

        Mm-hmm.

    15. ADAndrew Doyle39:02

        ... uh, to make. Um, again, I'd need the evidence on it. But yeah, I think, I think that's the problem, is that there's a sense of frustration. People were angry. Uh, understandably so. You know, it's not nice to lose, is it? Um, and it's easier if you can then paint everyone who made that thing happen as evil. If you say that everyone who voted for Trump is as deplorable, as Hillary Clinton re- so memorably did, and that worked out really well for her, didn't it? Um, then of course you, you go on the offensive and you end up guaranteeing Trump's victory in 2020. That's what you do. That's what they've done.

    16. CWChris Williamson39:33

        What would you predict?

    17. ADAndrew Doyle39:34

        Well, he's definitely gonna win.

    18. CWChris Williamson39:35

        You reckon?

    19. ADAndrew Doyle39:35

        Yeah, I mean, the, well, he's playing a very smart game because he's putting the s- the squad, the four Democrat, uh, politicians who play identity politics all the time, so Ilhan Omar, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, uh, Ayanna Pressley and, and, uh, Rashida Tlaib, who are never gonna play well with the electorate 'cause they're always going on about grievance and intersectionality and, and white privilege and all that sort of stuff. That doesn't win votes. Never has and never will. Um, and what Trump is doing is he constantly talks about them to make them the face of the Democrat Party. So people like Nancy Pelosi-

    20. CWChris Williamson40:06

        It's giving them enough rope.

    21. ADAndrew Doyle40:07

        Yeah. N- but the people like Pelosi are hating this. Like, she, she, she wants to distance herself from, from these four.

    22. CWChris Williamson40:12

        Mm-hmm.

    23. ADAndrew Doyle40:12

        But when you think Democrat, now you think uber woke, crazy identitarians, right?

    24. CWChris Williamson40:17

        (coughs)

    25. ADAndrew Doyle40:17

        And that's largely because of Trump and because the way he puts them at cen- at the center. So it's a smart tactical move. Um, the Democrats need to distance themselves from this kind of politics. Identity politics never works. And what's so funny about it-

    26. CWChris Williamson40:30

        Why, why doesn't it work?

14. 40:31 – 42:15

    Worker movement

    1. CWChris Williamson40:31

    2. ADAndrew Doyle40:31

       Because it divides everyone up.

    3. CWChris Williamson40:32

       Mm-hmm.

    4. ADAndrew Doyle40:32

       It says, uh, you know, "You, you stay in your lane over here. You stay in your lane. We're gonna s- we're gonna really help you. We'll help the Hispanics, we'll help the gays, we'll help the women," you know, with the... And, and everyone is like, "What about us? What about us?" You know? And then it becomes competing-

    5. CWChris Williamson40:43

       Mm-hmm.

    6. ADAndrew Doyle40:43

       ... uh, com- uh, competing interests. Um, you can only win, um, an election by unity, by, by saying that we are doing what's best for absolutely everyone.

    7. CWChris Williamson40:54

       Mm-hmm.

    8. ADAndrew Doyle40:54

       And because the woke movement is essentially a movement that, that rehabilitates racial thinking, it makes us think about race more, it makes us think about sexuality, and it makes us, uh, aware to the point of discrimination, and it, and it, and it separates us all out. Uh, and it, it wa- it wants to undo the work of the civil rights movements. It wants to undo the work of Martin Luther King. It wants us no longer to thi- to think about content of character but to think about color of skin. Uh, so it's a regressive backward movement. Um, it isn't helpful for human rights. It feeds the far right. It helps the far right. The far right is on the rise. They're still thankfully a very fringe group, but they are on the rise because of the woke movement, because of the woke left giving them all the ammunition they need.

    9. CWChris Williamson41:34

       Mm-hmm.

    10. ADAndrew Doyle41:34

        Okay? Because if you constantly say that all these working class white people, "You're just privileged. All you boys, you're just rapists in waiting. Uh, you know, you've got toxic masculinity. You should be ashamed of yourself," all of this sort of stuff, and then you've got the alt-right, white nationalist group saying, "Well, come, come to us, then. We're not gonna treat you like that."

    11. CWChris Williamson41:51

        It becomes a, it becomes an almost moderate and attractive-

    12. ADAndrew Doyle41:54

        Exactly.

    13. CWChris Williamson41:54

        ... pla- place to be.

    14. ADAndrew Doyle41:55

        Exactly, and that's a really terrifying prospect for me. The main reason I attack the woke left is because I'm scared of the f- the rise of the far right. That genuinely frightens me, um, because whereas the woke left are well intentioned on the whole, I think they're well intentioned. They want, they want the world to get a place. They're just in a cult so they can't see the reality of it, right?

15. 42:15 – 44:44

    Its not evil

    1. ADAndrew Doyle42:15

    2. CWChris Williamson42:15

       (laughs)

    3. ADAndrew Doyle42:15

       You know, it's like anyone in a cult. They c- they, they're believing, they believe it, right? It's not evil. They, they, they see the world as, uh, full of fascists. They see the world as full of injustice.

    4. CWChris Williamson42:24

       Mm-hmm.

    5. ADAndrew Doyle42:24

       And they want to do something about it. That's a laudable aim. The problem is the world isn't full of fascists, and they just end up hitting people with bike locks-

    6. CWChris Williamson42:30

       (laughs)

    7. ADAndrew Doyle42:31

       ... because they vote the wrong way, right? So-

    8. CWChris Williamson42:32

       Yeah.

    9. ADAndrew Doyle42:32

       So that's, that's, that's the pro- and what all of that does is generate all of this resentment, and, and to- it's a gift, it's a boon to the genuine, like, really vile white supremacist alt-right-... just, just repugnant people-

    10. CWChris Williamson42:46

        Mm-hmm.

    11. ADAndrew Doyle42:47

        ... who can thrive on this stuff. What, you know, that's ... I mean, as far as I can see, the only way to get beyond that is to, is to, is to take down the woke left, to make it okay to mock them again, to, to, to, to restore reasonable political conversation. That's what we need to do.

    12. CWChris Williamson43:02

        Mm-hmm.

    13. ADAndrew Doyle43:02

        It's so important.

    14. CWChris Williamson43:03

        There must be ... So there's a, a really interesting, um, podcast, Eric Weinstein on Joe Rogan.

    15. ADAndrew Doyle43:09

        Okay.

    16. CWChris Williamson43:09

        And Eric is-

    17. ADAndrew Doyle43:10

        I've seen Joe Rogan's podcasts a lot, but I haven't seen that, that one.

    18. CWChris Williamson43:12

        So Eric is the, um, managing director of Thiel Capital, Peter Thiel, one of the PayPal, Matthew's-

    19. ADAndrew Doyle43:17

        Yeah.

    20. CWChris Williamson43:18

        ... uh, companies, and he is fairly widely regarded as one of the smartest p- people, like public intellectuals on the planet.

    21. ADAndrew Doyle43:25

        Yeah.

    22. CWChris Williamson43:25

        Um, and he has this really interesting point he makes about how, um, the moderates on both the left and the right are allowing the extremists of that side to do all of the work for them-

    23. ADAndrew Doyle43:35

        Yeah, exactly.

    24. CWChris Williamson43:36

        ... and that by not shouting up as someone who is moderate left and saying, "Hang on a second. That's wrong." Or by being moderate right and saying, "Hang on a second. That's also wrong." Like Charlottesville, Charlottesville is wrong-

    25. ADAndrew Doyle43:46

        Yeah.

    26. CWChris Williamson43:46

        ... whatever it might be. You are ... He, he says it with much more nuance than this, but he says essentially you're supporting it by not-

    27. ADAndrew Doyle43:55

        Yeah.

    28. CWChris Williamson43:55

        By saying, "Oh, well, you can, you can go out." Like, it's the vanguard of your, uh, particular political leaning.

    29. ADAndrew Doyle44:01

        Yeah.

    30. CWChris Williamson44:03

        Push them forward a little bit.
16. 44:44 – 47:50

    Moderates

    1. CWChris Williamson44:44

       him in traffic.

    2. ADAndrew Doyle44:45

       Right. That's a very different, uh, uh ... It's important 'cause I'm ... I think peaceful protest is the way all the time. Peaceful protest and ridicule. Um, but yeah, certainly. So, so, sorry, to go back to the point. Sorry, I've missed it. I've, I've gone on a different angle.

    3. CWChris Williamson44:57

       Uh, the extremes, extremes pulling in, uh, for the, for the moderate people.

    4. ADAndrew Doyle45:01

       Yeah. Well, I think that goes back to what Bridget was saying, doesn't it, is that when a movement gets characterized by its worst elements, that's a problem.

    5. CWChris Williamson45:09

       Mm-hmm.

    6. ADAndrew Doyle45:10

       In the way that, uh, Islam, for instance, has been mischaracterized by its most reactionary elements.

    7. CWChris Williamson45:14

       100%.

    8. ADAndrew Doyle45:15

       Uh, you get the same thing here, where, uh, suddenly you think of the left ... I mean, if I say the left, what do you think of? You think of these screeching offense seekers, don't you?

    9. CWChris Williamson45:24

       Mm-hmm.

    10. ADAndrew Doyle45:25

        You think of the-

    11. CWChris Williamson45:25

        Purple hair.

    12. ADAndrew Doyle45:26

        Yeah. You think of the worst ... Well, actually that's not what being on the left means, you know? It's, it's, uh, and, and that's a real shame. So I think, yeah, I think we need to restore moderation. I think we need to be ... Uh, we need to stop having fealty to ideology so that we can say, "Yeah, broadly speaking, my principles are left wing, but that, that, that you've just said, this right-winger has said this interesting thing, which I might take on board and actually I might adopt as well."

    13. CWChris Williamson45:51

        Mm-hmm.

    14. ADAndrew Doyle45:52

        Um, and then, and restore the nature of the individual. The individual is sovereign, as John Stuart Mill said. Like, the ... It, it matters what you think. You have to, you have to be a free thinker, not let other people do your thinking for you.

    15. CWChris Williamson46:04

        Mm-hmm.

    16. ADAndrew Doyle46:04

        Um, and that's where we've got to where people don't, they don't do that anymore.

    17. CWChris Williamson46:08

        Yeah.

    18. ADAndrew Doyle46:08

        Like if, if, if you, if you were on the left, say, and you told me one of your principles, I could pretty much guess what all your other views are. And that should never be the case.

    19. CWChris Williamson46:16

        Mm-hmm.

    20. ADAndrew Doyle46:17

        You should surprise me now and then with what you think.

    21. CWChris Williamson46:19

        Did you see Jordan Peterson on GQ?

    22. ADAndrew Doyle46:21

        Nope.

    23. CWChris Williamson46:22

        This interview is fantastic. I'll send you it for you, for you to ...

    24. ADAndrew Doyle46:25

        Oh, wait. With Helen Lewis?

    25. CWChris Williamson46:27

        Maybe.

    26. ADAndrew Doyle46:28

        It was a, it was a, uh, one-to-one interview two hours long?

    27. CWChris Williamson46:30

        Yes. They-

    28. ADAndrew Doyle46:30

        I did. Sorry.

    29. CWChris Williamson46:31

        They tried to take me down. There was lots of options to take you down.

    30. ADAndrew Doyle46:32

        Yeah, sorry.
17. 47:50 – 50:25

    Hope for the best

    1. CWChris Williamson47:50

       problem of you having faith in people. It's the problem of you ... It literally is. It's the problem of you, uh, hoping for the best in people. And we do this all the time.

    2. ADAndrew Doyle47:57

       Well, it's partly that, but it's also that, um, I can't ... It's a g- it's ... That goes back to the thing about not playing by their rules, right? The one, the, the thing that I get all the time is people telling me what I secretly think.

    3. CWChris Williamson48:07

       (laughs)

    4. ADAndrew Doyle48:07

       That's the one common factor I get it all the time. So, so people will say-

    5. CWChris Williamson48:10

       What do they say you think?

    6. ADAndrew Doyle48:11

       Well, so actually virtually all the major criticisms of me on Twitter, the people who really go for me-

    7. CWChris Williamson48:16

       Mm-hmm.

    8. ADAndrew Doyle48:17

       ... have decided that I have these secret racist thoughts, that I have internalized homophobia, uh, that I, that I ... They ... I, I had one the other day about how I, I ma- what my ... Uh, I don't know. Like, who knows, right? All this stuff is like, um, "You're a right wing. You're a Tory." I get that a lot, a Tory. I've never voted Tory.

    9. CWChris Williamson48:35

       (laughs)

    10. ADAndrew Doyle48:36

        It doesn't matter.

    11. CWChris Williamson48:36

        Yeah.

    12. ADAndrew Doyle48:37

        They know that secretly I have.

    13. CWChris Williamson48:38

        Mm-hmm.

    14. ADAndrew Doyle48:39

        They know my secret thoughts, right?

    15. CWChris Williamson48:40

        Mm-hmm.

    16. ADAndrew Doyle48:40

        And that's a problem. And if I turn around and say, "Yeah, but you secretly think this," then I'm just reducing myself to their level. So what I will always do is take an argument at face value. I'm never gonna assume someone's lying about their argument for, for, for whatever reason, because the argument will be demolished irrespective of the truth behind it.

    17. CWChris Williamson48:56

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    18. ADAndrew Doyle48:57

        You can, you can defeat a bad argument-... whether the person is sincere about it or not.

    19. CWChris Williamson49:01

        I understand.

    20. ADAndrew Doyle49:02

        So that, I think, is a much better strategy. Um, and I'm sure there are people who are paid for extreme opinions, you know?

    21. CWChris Williamson49:09

        Mm-hmm.

    22. ADAndrew Doyle49:09

        I, I, I think we all know who we're talking about, right? People, you know, p- who will put extreme opinions out there because it gets them clickbait.

    23. CWChris Williamson49:14

        Yeah.

    24. ADAndrew Doyle49:14

        You know? Um, but the argument either stands or falls on its own merit. It doesn't really matter whether they mean it or not.

    25. CWChris Williamson49:20

        Mm-hmm.

    26. ADAndrew Doyle49:21

        Um, and also, you can't demolish the argument by assuming they don't mean it, because you've got no evidence for that.

    27. CWChris Williamson49:26

        Yeah.

    28. ADAndrew Doyle49:27

        That's just your speculation.

    29. CWChris Williamson49:27

        They've got to defeat you on its own terms-

    30. ADAndrew Doyle49:29

        Yeah.
18. 50:25 – 53:36

    Dont apologize

    1. ADAndrew Doyle50:25

       Well, every time someone does that, it gives more power to the woke movement. Uh, and it gives, it gives that sort of Twitter mob the, the upper hand. Because it means they know it works.

    2. CWChris Williamson50:36

       Mm-hmm.

    3. ADAndrew Doyle50:36

       It's like capitulating to terrorists. You know, once you, once you do it, they know it works and they'll do it again and again and again, and we've seen it all the time. People are forced to apologize for things they said years ago.

    4. CWChris Williamson50:45

       Mm-hmm.

    5. ADAndrew Doyle50:46

       Things that probably weren't even that offensive.

    6. CWChris Williamson50:48

       Mm-hmm.

    7. ADAndrew Doyle50:48

       That's not offensive. That's an opinion.

    8. CWChris Williamson50:50

       Mm-hmm.

    9. ADAndrew Doyle50:51

       So, and if he r- either he believed it or he didn't, right? If he believed it, stand by it.

    10. CWChris Williamson50:56

        Yeah.

    11. ADAndrew Doyle50:57

        You know? I mean, sure, you can change your mind about stuff.

    12. CWChris Williamson51:00

        In three days.

    13. ADAndrew Doyle51:01

        Unlikely.

    14. CWChris Williamson51:01

        (laughs) To that degree of-

    15. ADAndrew Doyle51:03

        What, what you're actually having is a lot of pressure from, you know... I mean, people can say to him... But maybe someone sat him down and said, "oh, think about this, think about this," and he did change his mind. That's possible, right?

    16. CWChris Williamson51:11

        Mm-hmm.

    17. ADAndrew Doyle51:11

        Um, even in that case, I would advise not apologizing.

    18. CWChris Williamson51:14

        Mm-hmm.

    19. ADAndrew Doyle51:15

        Because it just feeds the beast.

    20. CWChris Williamson51:16

        Yeah.

    21. ADAndrew Doyle51:17

        You know? I don't... We saw this with Kevin Hart and the Oscars for, for jokes he tweeted eight years ago, 10 years ago, something like that.

    22. CWChris Williamson51:23

        Mm-hmm.

    23. ADAndrew Doyle51:24

        And they were jokes. It doesn't matter if they're offensive. They were jokes. I, I don't care. Uh, so, uh, again, apolo- but good for him, he didn't apologize. He said, "I ap-," he said, "I apologized at the time, I'm not gonna keep apologizing for this."

    24. CWChris Williamson51:35

        Yeah.

    25. ADAndrew Doyle51:36

        You know? Uh, I just-

    26. CWChris Williamson51:37

        Did you s- did you see the, um, Liam Neeson thing about, was it in February time?

    27. ADAndrew Doyle51:42

        Yeah.

    28. CWChris Williamson51:42

        Where he said that his, uh, close family member had been, uh, sexually assaulted-

    29. ADAndrew Doyle51:48

        I did see this.

    30. CWChris Williamson51:49

        ... by a black guy.
19. 53:36 – 1:04:44

    Gender discussion

    1. CWChris Williamson53:36

       you get-

    2. ADAndrew Doyle53:36

       Right, but that... And the point he was raising is a, is a, is a discussion we need to have, right? The question about gender is a discussion we absolutely need to have.

    3. CWChris Williamson53:43

       Mm-hmm.

    4. ADAndrew Doyle53:43

       So anyone who knows anything about gender and has read, uh, sort of theories of gender, gender is not, as the woke movement claim, a social construct. It is a, a very, very complicated, uh, combination of social and biological factors, right? And the problem is that their faith-based position about gender, uh, has be- has been adopted, particularly in Canada, for instance, by governments. Um, and actually, we need to have a much bigger discussion before these sort of policies are, are adopted. We need to actually talk about and decide whether they're right or not. It's not correct, um, that, that, uh, gender is solely something to do with culture. Largely... I mean, certainly the, the obvious example is that you dress boys in blue and girls in pink, whereas in fact, you know, go back 100, 200 years, it was the reverse, right?

    5. CWChris Williamson54:26

       Mm-hmm.

    6. ADAndrew Doyle54:27

       So those things are arbitrary.

    7. CWChris Williamson54:28

       Mm-hmm.

    8. ADAndrew Doyle54:29

       Um, feminism, second-wave feminism, spent years trying to break down the idea of, of, of gender norms and gender stereotyping, right? What's wrong with a boy being effeminate? Wh- wh- why do you start questioning and saying, "Well, let's, let's... Maybe he's a girl."

    9. CWChris Williamson54:41

       Mm-hmm.

    10. ADAndrew Doyle54:42

        No, maybe he's an effeminate boy-

    11. CWChris Williamson54:43

        Yeah. (laughs)

    12. ADAndrew Doyle54:43

        ... and that's okay. What's wrong with a girl being a tomboy, being butch? What, like, what... There's some-

    13. CWChris Williamson54:48

        Do you remember, do you remember tomboys?

    14. ADAndrew Doyle54:50

        Yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson54:50

        'Cause tomboys haven't been around, as far as I can remember, for about 10 years.

    16. ADAndrew Doyle54:54

        Well, well, in fact, the recent, uh, play of the, um... Was it a Enid Blyton play? Was it Malory Towers, even? And they cast a, uh, j- um, non-binary actor to play the tomboy character.

    17. CWChris Williamson55:03

        Okay.

    18. ADAndrew Doyle55:03

        It was an Emma Rice production. Now that, this says, this says a lot, that it's almost like the concept of a, of a, of a butch girl is now something we don't understand anymore.

    19. CWChris Williamson55:11

        Mm-hmm.

    20. ADAndrew Doyle55:11

        No, no, no, it's a boy in a girl's body.

    21. CWChris Williamson55:13

        Mm-hmm.

    22. ADAndrew Doyle55:13

        This is deeply conservative.

    23. CWChris Williamson55:15

        Mm-hmm.

    24. ADAndrew Doyle55:15

        Right? It's, it's hugely conservative. I saw a, um, a documentary about trans kids, where the, the parents were talking about their... They've g- they said that, "We've got this little girl now and we're so happy because we don't have to watch our little boy mincing about like a," basically-

    25. CWChris Williamson55:29

        (laughs)

    26. ADAndrew Doyle55:29

        ... like a little gay. Right? So we fixed him. We fixed the problem.

    27. CWChris Williamson55:33

        Oh my God. (laughs)

    28. ADAndrew Doyle55:34

        You know? And it-

    29. CWChris Williamson55:35

        That's so... (laughs)

    30. ADAndrew Doyle55:37

        N- no, it said, i- i- a- an- and without-

Episode duration: 1:16:22