Whose Fault Was The Attack On Trump? - Former CIA Agent Mike Baker

Chris Williamson 0:00 How big of an intelligence failure was this?

Mike Baker 0:04 Well, it, it's, you, you have to think of it more as a logistical failure as opposed to an intelligence failure. This was a, a breakdown in, in what should be very standard security protocols. And look, the Secret Service does that very well, but clearly, right? And you always have to, you, I, I, I caveat this with one thing. You have to always wait for an investigation to, to finish, right? They're currently in the middle of their own investigation as to what the hell happened. Um, and obviously as soon as this happens, everybody on social media is an executive protection expert, right? So everybody's talking about, you know, exactly how this happened. Well, well, you know, uh, they, I, I, so I think it's important not to get out over your skis, but in a situation like this, clearly it would be insane to say that there weren't, uh, failures, there weren't breakdowns here. And even people with no experience can, can look at this and say, "I'm sorry. How, how did you not have somebody up on top of a roof that had line of sight to the stage, to the rally event?" Uh, and so typically, look, when, when something like this happens, and I, I've done countless, you know, advanced plannings and security assessments and risk and threat assessments, and, and, and typically when something happens like this, it's not one thing, right? It's, it's a, it's a series of, of mistakes or missteps that compound and then you end up with this, this goat rope that never should have happened. Um, so they're doing an investigation. Uh, Congress, of course, has called for an investigation. I wouldn't expect anything to come from that, um, because Washington DC is where all investigations go to die. And, uh, but the, uh, the, the bureaus is involved, uh, Secret Service obviously doing their own hot wash. Uh, and they sit underneath the Department of Homeland Security, you know, so if DHS does a review, fine. But there's so much video footage of this, right? And it happened in real time with so many people watching and so many different angles that I think in this case, unlike sometimes, sometimes you get investigations of a, of a, of a, of an event and you don't get much transparency, right? Because internally they're trying to figure out, okay, how do we improve this? Well, you don't wanna necessarily talk about all that activities because you're informing people who might have nefarious intent. But here, it was, it was clear for everyone to see that there was a significant number of issues and problems.

Chris Williamson 2:40 Whose responsibility, who does the buck ultimately stop with when we're talking about this? Homeland Security, Secret Service, local law enforcement?

Mike Baker 2:51 Well, I think what you're gonna find likely is, first of all, in terms of who has primacy on the ground, it's the Secret Service, right? So they established a security perimeter, and then according to at least early reports and what, what Secret Service is saying is then they designated local law enforcement as having control outside that designated security zone, which included the building where the shooter, uh, took up position. But that's, you know, ultimately it's the Secret Service's responsibility. So they should have obviously said, "Okay, so what are you doing in relation to those buildings that have line of sight?" And if local law enforcement said, "Well, we've got a, we've got a couple of unarmed officers that are patrolling the ground" (laughs) and, you know, interacting with the attendees out on the ground, then you'd say, "Okay, well how about you give me a state trooper or one of your local officers up on that rooftop and that one over there?" Any building, right? Uh, that's got line of sight. Uh, and you post somebody up there, just cover it down. That's Secret Service's ultimate responsibility, even if, you know, theoretically, okay, on paper this area over here is under the control of local au- authorities. So there is a procedural problem, there's a command and control problem, there's a communications problem during the course of this rally. I think you'll also find there was some, uh, command and control issues in terms of the ability for the sniper or the counter-sniper team on site, and they had a couple of them up there, um, to act, right? And there was probably, I don't know this, I'm speculating, right? But I'm speculating based on experience from past events that, you know, there may have been a lag time in getting the, you know, the go/no-go figured out in terms of taking a shot on the, on the target. Uh, there may have been problems at the top of Secret Service in terms of what did they allow for as a security package for former President Trump?

Chris Williamson 4:53 When you say that, you mean the, uh, number and quality of the people that were on the ground?

Mike Baker 4:59 Yeah. You've got a, you've kind of got a standard, you know, former president security package, uh, because they get coverage for life after they, they finish their, their time. And you could easily argue that perhaps the package for Trump, given that he's now the presumptive nominee for the November election, that clearly he, he draws a lot of heat from a lot of people.

Chris Williamson 5:27 Should have been beefed, should have been beefed up.

Mike Baker 5:29 Should have been beefed up. And look also, look, hey, hey, it was under the Trump administration when, you know, we tagged, uh, Soleimani, um, and the Iranians and their various proxies are still very upset about that. And we know that they've been looking at various opportunities to try to target individuals they feel responsible. So there were a variety of reasons why you could look and go, yeah, the package for, for, for former President Trump needs to be more robust than, say, what we would normally allocate. And so that may be, I don't know. I'm not saying it is, I'm just saying that may be an issue where now you've got more of a, of a, of a procedural problem with management, right?

Chris Williamson 6:07 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 6:07 Um, and then you've got the whole other issue of just general discourse. If you demonize somebody-... on either side and call them Hitler, um, fascist, you know, intent on destroying democracy, um, a- a- g- a threat to the nation, as President Biden's referred to him even the day before the shooting, um, you're probably, you know, inciting some irrational person who, you know, may not be able to process all that as hyperbole, right?

Chris Williamson 6:38 Yeah, and this is-

Mike Baker 6:38 And they're gonna take it literally.

Chris Williamson 6:40 This is a point that Tulsi Gabbard made, where she said that how can you expect someone to not try and stop Hitler if you keep calling him Hitler? Would you not go back in time and try and kill Hitler? And if literally Hit- there was a- a magazine that had him looking like the fu- a number of magazines that have had him-

Mike Baker 6:57 Right.

Chris Williamson 6:57 ... basically in the same, um, poster style that Adolf Hitler did in the past. You know, how many more analogies do you need to draw? And it's one of these things where until the repercussions and the consequences of doing that become kinetic, everyone-

Mike Baker 7:13 Right.

Chris Williamson 7:13 ... thinks that it's just a larp. "Well, Trump's bombastic. He's gregarious. He says crazy things. We need to push back with the same sort of technology that he uses, which is words and- and- and imagery." Uh, and then someone takes it up a notch.

Mike Baker 7:25 Yeah, look, I mean, it's- it's- it's clear, and people always say, "Ah, it's whataboutism," but it's clear it's- it's a problem on both sides, right? On the- on the edges of both sides, there's all this rhetoric and hyperbole. So there's no doubt about that, but you're right. Look, if the New Republican, that was one of the magazines that had the- the- sort of this propaganda poster of- of Trump as Hitler, um, they're throwing these things out there, and I- I think rational people look at that and go, "Okay, well, man, that's over the top. It's rhetoric. It's hyperbole. I g- I get it. You guys are using this as a campaign strategy." But there are a lot of people out there who aren't gonna process it that way-

Chris Williamson 8:01 Yeah.

Mike Baker 8:01 ... and disappear down these rabbit holes. So there's a- there's a lot of layers here. So when you say, "Who's responsible?" I, you know, it depends on at what altitude you are looking from.

Chris Williamson 8:11 Level of magnification you want to look at it from. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mike Baker 8:13 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 8:13 Where does the- where does the domino begin? One

Chris Williamson 8:16 of the things that I did read was that there was a lot of Homeland Security contractors on site as opposed to Secret Service agents, that-

Mike Baker 8:26 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 8:26 ... there was a more heavy reliance on local law enforcement than you would've done typically. I'm gonna guess that this is, uh, the package, the, uh, security detail-

Mike Baker 8:34 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 8:34 ... package as you mentioned, uh, th- just being more diluted than it should be. You have some talent, and the- some of the talent, I guess, is questionable based on the video footage. Um-

Mike Baker 8:43 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 8:43 ... but then you also have this sort of, uh, the outer regions which are maybe not even more as competent, and more of that was done by contractors, and more of that was done by local law enforcement than typical.

Mike Baker 8:54 Yeah, look, the election season, any election season, right, but particularly now when everything's so heated and- and both sides have been lobbing hand grenades at each other for quite some time, it- it- it's- it's a difficult time for Secret Service, right? They're just, they're- they're stretched, you know, uh, thin because there's so much to do, and they, and their resources are working constantly. So yes, they draw on, but they typically draw on even, you know, when- when it's not an election season, they draw on local authorities. Uh, and there was a significant presence at the rally of, uh, Butler County, uh, police. And, um, you know, there's gonna be some other issues about, you know, there was an encounter between one of those police officers who, you know, attempted to go up and interact with the shooter and then, you know, um, didn't, when the shooter pointed a gun at him. Uh, and then, you know, the- the- the firing started shortly thereafter. But-

Chris Williamson 9:47 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 9:47 ... look, there's a real breakdown there, right? Because, um, you've got a moment where obviously this guy has enough time to go to the building, try to get up to the top of the building to interact. Where are the comms with the, with the, you know, counter-sniper team saying, "We, I'm going up on the top of the building to interact with somebody who apparently has a weapon because lots of people on the ground saw him and alerted the authorities"?

Chris Williamson 10:09 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 10:09 So there's- there's, again, it l- a- as I mentioned, it's- it's never just one thing. It's a series of- of problems usually that contribute to a security breakdown.

Chris Williamson 10:17 It's interesting. I- I- I get what you mean about, uh, during an election cycle, there's more people, more places, more checks need to be done. But it's not like you don't know this.

Mike Baker 10:26 Right.

Chris Williamson 10:26 You know reliably it's going to happen in four years' time and four years after that and four years after that. So all of this could've been prepared for in advance, whether it's training, whether it's recruitment, whether it's wha- whatever you need in terms of staffing. I remember reading not so long ago as well after Trump's indictment, conviction, whatever it is, uh, that there'd been some suggestion to completely rescind the security detail from him, or at the very least to dial it back as some kind of recompense that he needed to pay for now being a felon.

Mike Baker 11:00 Exact- (laughs) exactly. Yeah, that was- that was a move in- in Congress by, uh, uh, I think it was, uh, Congressman, uh, Jeffries maybe. I'm- I've- I've- I don't want to get caught with the wrong name. But, um, one or a handful had, I think, kind of floated the idea that, well, probably s- uh, somebody who's been convicted shouldn't have Secret Service protection. It's an asinine idea. I mean, it was a completely asinine idea because he's still the former president, and he's still the presumptive nominee. But they were trying to score some political points, right? And that's- that's been part of the problem. You get, you're getting a lot of dysfunctional and irrational behavior because, um, you know, the, an element within the Democrat Party has this- this, uh, I- I don't even how to describe that, the- the hatred for Trump. But then-

Chris Williamson 11:51 Vitriol, yeah.

Mike Baker 11:51 ... again, on the- on the right side, on the extreme right, you've, obviously you've got the same sort of rhetoric that goes and- and- and demonizes the Democrats and Biden and all this. It just, it, uh, it- it's not a, it's not a good place for the nation to be obviously, given what can happen and what we saw happen on Saturday.

Chris Williamson 12:09 It's I th- at least at the moment a little bit asymmetric that only one side has control over how much protection an ex-president gets. And, uh, you know, it's so-

Mike Baker 12:19 Mm-hmm. Yep, true.

Chris Williamson 12:19 ... it just seems to me, it- it- it seems to me like the...... amount of protection should be proportionate to the potential threat. And, you know, regardless of whether you like or don't like Trump, he's a pretty big target. I mean, you know-

Mike Baker 12:32 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 12:33 ... you, you, you don't need to do much to Biden to cause him to fall over but, you know, Trump's a, a, a much (laughs) much larger target.

Mike Baker 12:39 (laughs) Yeah, bro. Okay, I'm gonna let that one go. Um, but, uh, yeah, d- no, you're not, you're not wrong. Uh, and that's why you do, uh, risk and threat assessments on a constant basis, right? Because the risks, the threats, they change. Um, they can increase, they can decrease, and you're always doing that, whether you're talking about executive protection, um, you know, for a political candidate, whether you're talking about, you know, what sort of level of protection you provide to a facility or it, it doesn't matter. So you're absolutely right, and they should have been looking at this. Now they, they did say that they, there, there has been some comment that the Secret Service did, uh, heavy up the, uh, the security package to some degree back in June, I believe, for, for Trump. Um, but it's only now that they've, um, approved, uh, Secret Service protection for Robert F. Kennedy, right? And-

Chris Williamson 13:30 Yeah.

Mike Baker 13:30 ... you know, that's an indication-

Chris Williamson 13:32 Right.

Mike Baker 13:32 ... that really what the Democrats wanted was they just wanted him to go away. They didn't want (laughs) ... They almost didn't want to acknowledge that Kennedy was a, a candidate out there.

Chris Williamson 13:39 Uh, dude, so I've been to... I went to dinner with an R- with RFK at a friend's house maybe about a year ago, then I went to a, a rally thing of his in Austin about six months ago, and then-

Mike Baker 13:52 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 13:52 ... I went to another meet up with him about two months ago. And at each one of those, he's made it very, very plain, "I have no security detail. I have no, uh, extra special care from the government despite the fact that I come from the most assassinated family in American political history."

Mike Baker 14:10 Yeah, it was insane, and it were, you know, and, and has been. And I, but I do think it was a, it was essentially for a very, uh, political reason, which was, "We don't want to (laughs) acknowledge that he's a candidate, we just want him to go away." Could you-

Chris Williamson 14:21 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 14:22 I mean, you know, and, and-

Chris Williamson 14:22 So giving, giving him the detail is almost like a stamp of approval in some way, "This is a legitimate person."

Mike Baker 14:26 Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's kinda that formalizing of his candidacy in a way, right? That's-

Chris Williamson 14:31 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 14:31 A lot of people process it that way. They see the Secret Service detail and they ima- you know, okay, he's a presidential candidate, right?

Chris Williamson 14:37 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 14:37 And they were so afraid of him taking oxygen out of the room, um, but now as a result of what happened on Saturday, they've, they've, uh, reviewed, and I assume they're gonna, you know, increase the package for, uh, President Trump. They've approved a package for, for, uh, Robert F. Kennedy. Um, you know, they've been looking at... I'm, I'm in Milwaukee where they have the Republican National Convention. They're, you know, they immediately got on the ground here and started reviewing, uh, security. Go figure. I mean, that should've been done. Look, this is not... There's, there's, there's a, a methodology here, right? And you can have little bits and pieces that, uh, that change based on what the event is, but the standard practice, the standard protocols really don't change that much. And so more than anything there were, there was a command and control and a communications breakdown-

Chris Williamson 15:25 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 15:25 ... between Secret Service and, and local authorities that I would, I, I, I believe an investigation is gonna prove contributed mightily to what happened on Saturday.

Chris Williamson 15:37 What will the process from here internally be to investigate? I imagine it's just going to be a fucking nightmare to try and work out who's culpable, what happened, how is this going to occur, whilst also doing the investigation which requires resources from the very thing that you're trying to now beef up given the failure that just occurred during a time when you need them more than ever, but also their time is trying to be split working out what the fuck happened.

Mike Baker 16:03 Yeah. Well, th- yeah, and you raise a really good point, and that's where, that's where a Congressional investigation can really kinda muck up the works, get in the way, because you know, they, you know, they, they get out there and they start sucking up oxygen that really needs to be spent e- you know, doing operations. But, uh, look, it's important, uh, right after, after this go rope, um, you know, internally Secret Service was doing a hot wash, um-

Chris Williamson 16:27 What does this mean? Stop using these words. What do you mean? (laughs)

Mike Baker 16:29 Well, yeah, I mean, they were j- they were basically just, uh, doing a, a after-action review of, you know, what happened immediately in the aftermath of this thing, um, but there's a lot of moving parts as you pointed out. Look, it's, there's DHS personnel, there's the local law enforcement. Um, it's not a good sign that so soon after this event there's already some finger-pointing going on, um, saying, "Well, that was their zone, uh, not ours," and Butler County saying, "Well, that's, you know, doesn't matter. Secret Service has primacy so they should, you know, be telling us what to do in a sense." So that's not necessarily a good indication, uh, but, you know, I think this thing has got to play out in, uh, in public, i- in part because, you know, government agencies, whether it's the Secret Service or the Bureau or the CIA, whatever, they, you know, they- they've lost a lot of credibility, um, which is kind of a painful thing to admit, um, but they've lost a lot of credibility over the recent past. And so, you know, one of those things, one of those ways I think you build back some level of trust is to be more transparent. And, and again, they don't have anything to lose because everybody was watching-

Chris Williamson 17:43 They're starting at zero.

Mike Baker 17:43 Yeah. They're starting (laughs) ... Well, I meant, I meant because everybody was watching, they can afford to be more transparent, but, but okay, I take your point, yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 17:54 Uh, so, y- you know, going into the rest of this year, do you think these sorts of threats are over, or are there more serious risks to come as we get toward the presidential election?

Mike Baker 18:02 Uh, well, the, the, the threat's not over, for sure. You know, um, that never goes away, right? You never get this down to, to zero. That's not how the game is played. So they have to approach every event, whether it's the RNC happening outside or whether it's, um, any other campaign rally, uh, the DNC which will be taking place in Chicago, uh, they've got to approach every event in the same fashion, right? And yes, there'll be more...... um, under the spotlight, you know, from the public and, and from, you know, their own agencies and the various people involved. But ... And that's a good thing, right? It, it kinda refocuses the mind, um ... You know, I'm not saying that the event on Saturday was a good thing, I'm just saying that it's going to... One of the, uh, one of the, one of the end results will be everyone's gonna be a little bit more on their game, um, because they're gonna be reminded in a very terrible way what's at stake. They ... You could argue they shouldn't have to be (laughs) reminded, but, you know, you do these events and you do these events. And the thing about executive protection is it can be a grind. Mentally, it can be a real grind, right?

Chris Williamson 19:11 Why?

Mike Baker 19:12 Well, you're, you're standing out- outside a door, you know, t- uh, Secret Service details, there's a lot of hurry up and wait, you know. It's, it can be kinda mind-numbing in a way, right? There's ... You know, and then you got a movement, "Okay, fine, now I gotta go do another advance, and I'm doing the advance." And there's, there's a lotta routine, a lotta, uh, you know, rote, which, (sighs) you know, can, it can be a bit ... Again, it can be a bit mind-numbing. Um-

Chris Williamson 19:38 Which inevitably-

Mike Baker 19:38 Yup.

Chris Williamson 19:38 ... causes people to pay less attention, which then allows small-

Mike Baker 19:41 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 19:41 ... errors to, to kick up. Yeah, I was speaking to, uh, Tim Kennedy. I got him to break down the body language of the-

Mike Baker 19:49 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 19:49 ... uh, counter-sniper-

Mike Baker 19:50 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 19:50 ... uh, from the Secret Service that was on the roof. And he's, uh, you know, looking, he's coming up off his glass, he's going back down, then he flinches, and then he goes back down again. And, you know, he, uh, Tim's assessment was he thought that was a person who'd never been in a firefight before, um, that that was someone who potentially hadn't seen combat action.

Mike Baker 20:10 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 20:10 But another thing to consider is that this isn't training. You haven't just rocked up, ca-

Mike Baker 20:14 Right.

Chris Williamson 20:14 ... full of caffeine, you know, on the range, with your buddy, that's your spotter, and "I know when I'm going to need to shoot." You've been there for, uh, how many hours? Sat up there doing this thing, you know, that sort of endurance, um, and as it continues to go on. But again, that, uh ... It seems to me that all of that can be fixed just by more volume and higher-quality personnel. You know, if you've got someone that's doing the night shift, don't make them do the day shift.

Mike Baker 20:39 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 20:39 You know, con- have sufficient resources that you don't need to, to drain everyone like that.

Mike Baker 20:44 Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. You've gotta have, you've gotta have sufficient staffing. And, and, you know, again talking about how m- much of a grind it can be, uh, it's not the sort of business where you can just, you know, you know, just, just work through people until they're exhausted, right? You've got, people have to be at a, at an optimum level, um, all the time. And so that requires you to be able to work through a number of shifts, uh, of rotations, and so you have to have those resources. But look, I ... Uh, and, and, and training, you know, you've gotta, you've gotta have constant training, um, and, and that costs money and time. And so sometimes those things get kicked aside. I don't, I'm not saying they did, I'm just saying that, you know, sometimes in, in, in the world of government, you know, certain things can be pushed aside in, in favor of other things that aren't really as operationally beneficial. So-

Chris Williamson 21:33 How likely do you think it is that the heads of Homeland Security or the Secret Service are going to end up getting fired or disciplined for this?

Mike Baker 21:43 Well, I don't think DHS, uh ... Mayorkas, I don't think, isn't going (laughs) anywhere. He's, he seems to be, uh, you know, coated in Teflon, um, because, you know, you could argue he should've been fired for the, you know, for the, the lack of management of the US southern border for the past three years. But I don't think he's going anywhere. Uh, Kimberly Cheatle over at, at, uh, Secret Service, look, she, you know, she's been there, m- what, almost 30 years, maybe longer? She was, you know, an agent and a supervising agent for 27 years, finished up then went to, I, I forget, uh, Pepsi, I think, where she was global security director, and then she got called in. She had worked on Vice President Biden's detail years and years ago, and so that ... And who knows? Maybe that was part of the connection, but she came back in to run the Secret Service. Is she gonna be kicked out? I don't think so. Um, Washington, DC is not typically a place where people get fired. Um-

Chris Williamson 22:40 Why, why is that? Just nepotism and people know people and people know things and "You scratch my back"?

Mike Baker 22:46 Yeah, I think, you know ... Look, uh, you know, people, people get reassigned at lower levels, you know, if, if there's, if, if things go sideways. Um, typically, you know that, that shit rolls downhill. And, uh, so you may get, you know, mid-level officers or agents, you know, they get reassigned or put on ice. But typically people don't ... You know, at higher levels, you know, they're not expected to pay the price. Uh, I don't know why. Uh, but it's a little bit like, um, it's a little bit like this problem with, with the civil discourse and people talking about how we have to turn the temperature down, right? Well, that requires self-awareness, and it requires a willingness to accept some responsibility for where we got to now, right? Because they were part of the problem. But I don't think politicians necessarily, um, or political appointees tend to be, you know, loaded for bear with self-awareness or willingness to accept responsibility.

Chris Williamson 23:41 What do you think happens to the political discourse moving forward from here? How do you think it changes or doesn't?

Mike Baker 23:48 (laughs) Uh, I think give it another, uh, m- I don't know, 15 minutes, um, and we're gonna be right back, we're gonna revert to the mean. I don't ... I, I, I have no doubt, uh, that the- there, there will be a, a short period of time, uh, including, I, I think including Trump's, uh, nominating speech at the RNC. I think, you know, that's going to be more, uh, dialed back than people would imagine f- coming from Trump, but I don't-

Chris Williamson 24:16 He said that he re- he wrote a, a brand new one for it.

Mike Baker 24:19 Yeah, yeah, and I'm sure he did. Uh, look, he's got ... Look, it's you, you ... I don't think you can go through that, an experience like that, uh, and not have some moment of reflection, right? Um, now whether it lasts, whether he can change his stripes, I don't know, whether the Democrats can change their stripes, who knows? You know, look, they've, they ran a campaign based on Trump is a fascist and he's gonna destroy democracy, and it was working for them.... right? It was energizing at least their, their base and, and I think they felt like that's the narrative they were gonna run with for the next few months. I don't think, I don't think either side's really going to dial it back significantly for any period of time. So yes, there'll be this, there'll be a moment, but then I think everyone's gonna kind of revert back to the normal, jump back in their trenches and, you know, we'll be right back to that.

Chris Williamson 25:08 Biden said, or at least the Dems said that they'd turned off their campaign ads for a little while, sort of a show of, a mark of respect. I imagine that if you'd kept running those, there'd be some in there that are absolutely tone-deaf for a guy that just got shot.

Mike Baker 25:21 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:21 Um, but yet there is a big question. Can you say that Trump is Hitler one day and then the next day wish him well, given that he was just shot?

Mike Baker 25:33 (laughs) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:33 It does seem-

Mike Baker 25:34 Yeah. I know, I know. Uh, he's Hitler, but-

Chris Williamson 25:37 Fortuitous blowing with the wind.

Mike Baker 25:39 Thank God he was only grazed. Um, yeah, I, it's, it's a, it's a, yeah, it's a really good question, but I think what they're counting on is the attention span of the, uh, uh, of Americans maybe. Um, you know, everybody's so busy just trying to get by and feed their families and do their work and kind of whatever, and they're all staring at TikTok anyway. Um, so, yeah, I, I think they honestly think, "Yeah, sure, we can, we can get away with this incredible pivot from he's going to terminate the Constitution and, and take away all your rights and he's, you know, the biggest threat to the nation," and, and then turn around and go, "Well, we sure... I talked to Donald and I told him I was your-"

Chris Williamson 26:21 (laughs)

Mike Baker 26:21 "... and, you know, so." I, I, but I think they feel like, you know, they can get away with it because they've done it, so, yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:29 Fucking hell. Yeah, yeah, selective amnesia of the entire populous. So, uh,

Chris Williamson 26:33 yeah, I'm, I'm glad that you brought up TikTok, your favorite, uh, topic of discussion. I... This is the first time that I've observed... Actually, I didn't even do this with January 6th 'cause with January 6th, I actually watched mostly Fox News, CNN coverage. I was watching things be streamed live.

Mike Baker 26:51 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 26:51 Uh, but on Saturday, this happened just as I was going to dinner here in Montana, and I, for the first time, realized just how important X, Twitter, is as a social media. It was a genuine utility for everybody that wanted to know what was going on, and I wasn't... I- I'm not going to Facebook to find out this information.

Mike Baker 27:15 Yep.

Chris Williamson 27:16 I'm not going to TikTok to find out this information. I'm not going to Instagram to find out this information. I'm not going to the mainstream media to find out this information, like mostly peaceful but fiery assassination attempt from CNN or whatever (laughs) the headline was.

Mike Baker 27:29 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:30 Um-

Mike Baker 27:30 There were some headlines, there were some headlines that he was pulled from the rally because he fell down. And, uh-

Chris Williamson 27:35 "Secret Service Interrupts Trump Rally."

Mike Baker 27:37 Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and, or there was, there was a New York Times, uh, article just today that said, you know, that referred to the, the assassination attempt as, uh, that somebody shot at the President during a rally. And you think, okay, so, so I, I, I agree with you, uh, you know, uh, I think X has kind of proven its, its, its usefulness in this-

Chris Williamson 28:00 Agreed.

Mike Baker 28:01 ... event over the weekend. Yeah, I was, I was, uh, I, I spent probably more time monitoring what was happening there than I think pretty much anything else. Al- although I was perf-

Chris Williamson 28:11 Me too.

Mike Baker 28:11 ... I was perfecting a new TikTok dance, so I had to-

Chris Williamson 28:14 (laughs)

Mike Baker 28:15 That wasn't easy, but it's gonna be a hit.

Chris Williamson 28:18 I'll tell you what else I didn't see much of. Um, I didn't see much sort of crazy misinformation, uh, wild accusations. I haven't seen much that people have really needed to roll back. Now, uh, is that the, um, is that the benefit of the platform or is that simply just because of what users were talking about? Um, you know, you, you, you can't promote a tweet which lies about something that somebody doesn't actually post. You can only actually promulgate whatever messages people say.

Mike Baker 28:49 That's fair.

Chris Williamson 28:49 Um, but yeah, I was, I was really impressed. I was looking at X and going, "Holy fuck. Like, we need this thing." And I've not, I've, I've not had that sense really before. It's just like, oh, it's, you know, if you've got Truth Social on one side and you've got X kind of more toward the middle and then you've got Threads on the other side, you know, it's just, it's just another one of these. But it, yeah, it made me think, uh, differently, I think.

Mike Baker 29:11 Yeah. I think the cr- it, it, it takes a little while for the crazy to come out, right? So I have seen some conspiracy theories that, you know, this was an inside job, you know, and, and, uh, you know, and then, of course, all the, all the, you know, the, sort of the armchair executive protection specialists, you know, talking about exactly, you know, how, what went wrong five minutes after the event, right? Are they... Okay, well, at least, let the dust settle a little bit-

Chris Williamson 29:36 Yeah.

Mike Baker 29:36 ... um, before sorting-

Chris Williamson 29:37 Let's mop the blood up off the, off the stage canvas before you-

Mike Baker 29:40 Yeah, might be, might be good. But no, the, the, the, look, the, the imagery was amazing. Um, the like him or hate him, right, and there's a lot of people on both sides of that for Trump, but you have to, you have to think, "Good God," right? I mean, he, the, the fact that he stood up, had the wherewithal to kind of like face the crowd, you know, give them that indication that he was fine, that he was, you know... I mean, that's, those instincts, right, you can't teach that, right? That's, that's, uh, kind of in there somewhere and, and so I think that was, that was amazing, right? Again, people who hate him are gonna say it was terrible. He shouldn't have like shook his fist at... I did hear CNN was upset with him 'cause he shook his fist at the crowd and said, "Fight," and they were like, "Well, that seems inappropriate."

Chris Williamson 30:26 He's stoking, he's stoking a wartime rhetoric.

Mike Baker 30:28 Right.

Chris Williamson 30:29 He just got shot.

Mike Baker 30:30 He just got shot.

Chris Williamson 30:30 He just got shot.

Mike Baker 30:31 They're upset because he's like shaking his fist and he's, he's and then they're like, "Well, that's, that's, that's not approp- appropriate."

Chris Williamson 30:38 An- inappropriate, inappropriate to get aggressive when you've b- when you've just been shot.

Mike Baker 30:41 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:41 Yeah. I, dude, I, I said this to Tim. Look, I...... have ki- I, I sort of respect Trump in that I find him a, an interesting orator and his sort of staying power has been, has been impressive.

Mike Baker 30:55 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 30:55 But I've never before said that I admired him. Uh, you know, I, I don't know whether it's because he's kind of like a WWE character, which he also happened to be briefly for a little while.

Mike Baker 31:07 Right.

Chris Williamson 31:07 Um, uh, he's super gregarious and he's out there and he's all of these things. And he, he's, like, older and he's from a different culture and all of these things, lots and lots and lots of things, right?

Mike Baker 31:15 Right.

Chris Williamson 31:16 And I saw that video and then I saw that imagery and I was like, "That is fucking badass." That is a y- there is no amount of media training or, uh-

Mike Baker 31:29 No, exactly.

Chris Williamson 31:29 ... sort of top-down, dictatorial rhetoric building and image sort of, um, promoting that you can do to make being shot then standing up and putting your fist in the air and going, "Fight, fight, fight," that is him. That's his character.

Mike Baker 31:46 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:46 That is his character. We saw everything stripped back. Who is the guy... Like, if you wanna know who someone is, shoot them in the ear, right? (laughs)

Mike Baker 31:54 Well, well, let's say, okay, no, for, for those of you watching at home- (laughs)

Chris Williamson 32:00 (laughs)

Mike Baker 32:00 ... that's, that, that's, you know, let's, let's step back on that guidance. But, um... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 32:05 (laughs)

Mike Baker 32:07 Okay, kids.

Chris Williamson 32:08 Yeah.

Mike Baker 32:08 Uh, no, but I, I take your point. And also the, the striking thing is just the, the, the, the, the contrast, right, between that-

Chris Williamson 32:18 Yeah.

Mike Baker 32:18 ... and, and what we had been talking about on-

Chris Williamson 32:20 Yep.

Mike Baker 32:21 ... nonstop, right, on Friday and Thursday and Wednesday before that which was-

Chris Williamson 32:24 Feebleness, fragility.

Mike Baker 32:25 The feebleness, the mental acuity issues for Biden. And so tho- that contrast, I think, is going to hit really hard for some time now, uh, going through this election. And obviously, you know, the Republicans will use that imagery, um, you know, but I think they have to be care-

Chris Williamson 32:40 For the rest of time. (laughs)

Mike Baker 32:42 They have to be, but they do have to be careful, right? I mean, just 'cause you don't wanna, you know, 'cause look, what, you know, we... There was a fatality there, um, you know, people were injured.

Chris Williamson 32:50 Maybe, maybe more.

Mike Baker 32:52 Yeah, maybe more. And so, uh, I think they, they're gonna wanna... So I'm hoping what this does is I hope it dials down the discourse, I hope it keeps things for a little bit of time. (laughs) You know, again, I'm cynical, but-

Chris Williamson 33:05 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 33:06 ... ma- uh, you know, civil, and I hope it makes the Trump campaign more reflective, right, about their strategy and their tone and the way that they approach things.

Chris Williamson 33:19 What, what does, what does that mean? Be more specific for me.

Mike Baker 33:21 Well, I think, look, everybody talks about, everybody talks about how you gotta win the moderates, right? You gotta win the, the independents, you know, if you're, if you're gonna win it all in November. And I think, um, if, if, if what we got was the Trump of old, right? He's not winning those people, right? 'Cause they already left him in 2020. That's why he didn't win, right? 'Cause they were like, "I'm tired of the chaos. I'm tired of the noise. I'm tired of the, the, you know, the, all of this, and, and..." Uh, so I think that if this makes him more, or the campaign more reflective and they say, "You know what, you know, let's, let's, let's continue to dial it back." The Democrats are gonna do whatever they're gonna do. If they get back to throwing hand grenades, okay, fine, let them. But let's be the, let's be the contrast, right? I think that's the way that you get... And, and then just focus on policies. Just talk about policies, nothing else, right?

Chris Williamson 34:16 Well, you already had a, a little bit-

Mike Baker 34:18 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:18 ... more of a pivot to a slightly more statesman-like version of Trump during the debate, and then after the debate.

Mike Baker 34:24 True.

Chris Williamson 34:24 You know, there was no, uh, posting about Biden. There was no silly tweet or what equivalent. There was n- there was none of that. He, he... Silence was his greatest weapon for the first time ever, um-

Mike Baker 34:35 Absolutely. Absolutely. When, when your enemy's imploding, don't, (laughs) don't get in the way.

Chris Williamson 34:39 Don't get in the way, yeah.

Mike Baker 34:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:40 Precisely. Um, w- talk

Chris Williamson 34:42 to me about what you think this does to Trump's image among the American populous. How do you think that this incident changes it, if, if at all?

Mike Baker 34:51 Well, I, I don't know that it, uh... Look, I, I, I think it, I think it will make a difference with some who were undecided. Not necess- I'm not talking necessarily about, you know, uh, independents and moderates who are focused on politics, but I think those people who, you know, maybe don't spend a lot of time thinking about politics, but were still kind of undecided-

Chris Williamson 35:10 Maybe, maybe unregistered or-

Mike Baker 35:11 Yeah, maybe unregistered-

Chris Williamson 35:12 ... not unregi- like, "I wasn't, I wasn't sure if I was gonna vote at all."

Mike Baker 35:15 Yeah. I, I think that that... And it, and part of that will be that contrast between this guy standing up after he's shot (laughs) and what they saw during that debate if they happened to see clips or they watched some of the debate. I think that contrast will influence a certain group. Um, I think if he can, if he can... I don't, I don't know if statesman's the right word, but (laughs) I think if he can be more moderate then, and speak to the issues and just stay there, then I think that can influence those moderates and independents perhaps that, that are a little more focused on politics and did abandoned, uh, or abandoned the c- the campaign the last time around. So I think it can have an impact. Uh, look, uh, the Democrats, you know, they must be amazed right now, right? Because all that conversation about Biden, that's, that's nowhere to be found, right? That's done.

Chris Williamson 36:00 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 36:00 At least for now. People are not talking about Biden. They're not talking about his feebleness, his mental acuity, is he still fit to serve.

Chris Williamson 36:08 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 36:08 And so I think the White House is, if anything has taken a breath in going, "Oh, thank God."

Chris Williamson 36:12 I, I, I'm not sure there. So I th- I think that... Uh, I get what you mean. The, it's a good day for bad news or it's a good day to be senile, I suppose. Um, but the problem is that this recent shooting, assassination attempt, is framed against the, uh, foundation that we already had. Everyone still already has that-

Mike Baker 36:33 Hm.

Chris Williamson 36:34 ... in the back of their mind.

Mike Baker 36:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:35 We know the fragility that we've seen of the existing president, the fact that he doesn't have that sort of gusto and that get up that, that we want to show from a, uh, a leader up against China or up against Russia, et cetera.

Mike Baker 36:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 36:46 Uh, and then you have this... Even if you're not looking at it anymore, it's like just being in a cold bath and getting into a hot one. You're like-

Mike Baker 36:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:53 ... "Holy fuck, this is different." So I th- I, I do think that that's going to be there. I also agree. I think the more-... Mature and, uh, standoffish that the Republicans can be when it comes to messaging around this. I think that's going to benefit them more. For the first time ever, this is one of my- uh, George, who I'm traveling with at the moment, told me this yesterday, for the first time ever, Trump has a victim card. He's never had a victim card before. Uh, Trump has- that's- th- he has a fucking victim card.

Mike Baker 37:24 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:24 You know?

Mike Baker 37:25 Well, al- al- although I would argue that the- the base, right, his- his loyal, loyal supporters view him as- as the- the supreme victim, right? Just being victimized by lawfare-

Chris Williamson 37:35 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 37:35 ... and the- the Biden Administration, and so I think that group always looks at him in that regard, right?

Chris Williamson 37:40 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 37:40 You know, "Look what they're doing to him again." And-

Chris Williamson 37:42 And now he's been shot in the- in the ear.

Mike Baker 37:44 And now he's been shot, yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 37:45 Yeah, in the- in the fucking ear. Well, I- uh, so I- another interesting thing is how much damage does this incident do to the left's moral high ground around not being the violent ones?

Mike Baker 37:57 Yeah, I don't think they care. Uh, I think they just- they'll- they'll just- uh, I've never seen any awareness on their part that that could be an issue, right? It's just- it's sort of like that mostly peaceful Antifa riots and- and, you know, burnings and- and violence, I- I think that they just brush that aside. And so, I don't know that, um, they're worried about that idea. They all jumped on the notion, they were- they were- they were really wordsmithing, but they jumped on the notion in their statements about the, uh, assassination attempt that the shooter was a registered Republican (laughs) and, uh- uh, they, you know... And by the way, why do all these guys look the same? I don't- I don't understand.

Chris Williamson 38:38 (laughs)

Mike Baker 38:39 Um, (laughs) they all... You know, and I didn't- I didn't say that. My oldest boy said that. He said, "What the hell is it with- with- with people like th- uh, what do- what do they- what do- what is the commonality?" You know, his point was maybe they need to do a study of all these (laughs) people and find that one thing.

Chris Williamson 38:53 Wait, what was that- what was that thing that was super racist and done in the nine- was it phrenology, or physiognomy, or whatever it was?

Mike Baker 38:59 Oh, something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:01 Like, face shape as being indicative.

Chris Williamson 39:03 What- what do we-

Mike Baker 39:03 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:03 ... what- what do we know about the shooter?

Mike Baker 39:08 (sighs) You know, uh, what? 20 years old, from the- from the area, Bethel, Bethel Park in Pennsylvania. Um, y- you know, I've only heard a few comments from people who claim that they knew him in high school, and those are typical comments, quiet, loner-

Chris Williamson 39:23 Bullied.

Mike Baker 39:23 ... bullied. Um, uh, you know, his dad purchased legally, legally apparently, the long gun that was used on Saturday by his kid, um, some six months ago. Um, and, you know, so there's not a lo- there's not a lot of information out there. It's interesting, the Bureau's got his- obviously, they got his electronic devices. They took his phone down to Quantico and, you know, once again, they're- they're, you know, struggling. It- according to reports, I don't know whether that's the case or not, but they say they're struggling to unlock it. Um, and...

Chris Williamson 39:57 The phone of a 20-year-old loner from Bethel-

Mike Baker 40:00 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:01 ... Green or whatever it is.

Mike Baker 40:02 Yeah, so I think it's- it's, uh, you know, we'll- we'll get more detail, but that's one of those areas, right, where you have to be... I always hate to see people speculating about motives because that's one of the things in terms of an investigation regardless of what type of shooting event it is, that you really need to let the facts, you know, come to light before you start talking in- in earnest about, "Oh, I- you know, what the motivation of the shooter was."

Chris Williamson 40:27 So bizarre, man. I- there's definitely, I think, another discussion to be had around what is the training of local law enforcement. You know, we've had it before.

Mike Baker 40:35 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 40:35 I- I was watching this documentary about, um, I- I- there's a name for them. What's the name for police officers that don't enter firefights even though they should do? It's like the- it's not coward or whatever. It's like there's a specific name for it, you know, like, uh, um, false valor or whatever. There's, like, an equivalent sort of name for it. But-

Mike Baker 40:53 Douchbag. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:54 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, just failing at duty.

Mike Baker 40:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:56 And, uh, you know, th- I saw in this same, uh, documentary I was talking about that a lot of the police officers were saying that they spend more time in diversity meetings than they do with their firearm in their hand.

Mike Baker 41:08 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:09 That- yeah.

Mike Baker 41:09 Well, and that is true. I- when you look at the consistency of training, that's why that- you know, s- one of the things that could drive you crazy w- during that- the- sort of the height of the "defund the police" was really, uh, well, uh, y- you're just fucking stupid because if you want a better police force, a more responsive police force, a more responsible police force, you wanna actually give them more funds for training. That's where it all starts, right? So, part of the problem is, again, going back to something we talked about, uh, uh, earlier is that, you know, a lot of times when you hit budget cuts, training's one of the first things to go, and that can't be the case when you're talking about law enforcement. Right?

Chris Williamson 41:41 Especially not if you're gonna be a guy who goes up a ladder and sees a dude with a- a long gun and-

Mike Baker 41:46 Yeah. And that- again, I- I- I- I- I am- I'm fascinated by the comms portion of this and- and the- the line of communication because there's a period of time there, right, where the attendees alert the local authorities, local authorities decide someone- you know, Bob's gotta go over there and investigate. While at the same time, all that communication should've been shared with the counter-sniper teams and command and control from the Secret Service, right? They should've been making decisions in real time. So if that person was going up a ladder on that building, they should've had him in their sights at that point, right? Now, maybe they didn't have line of sight on the- on the shooter. Maybe he, you know, he was out of range- uh, not out of range but out of sight.

Chris Williamson 42:25 Yep.

Mike Baker 42:25 And then he pops up and points his weapon at the- but that's the time to shoot him. As soon as that- uh, you know, I- so there's little steps here, but again, you know, is it fair for me without the investigation being done to make all these s- you know, statements? I don't know. I'm just speaking from, you know, from p- past experience on other events.

Chris Williamson 42:41 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 42:41 But e- e- you know, we- they gotta let the investigation play out. It's just- it's such a- the event had such magnitude and such impact that it's natural, I get why people rush to make judgment or statements or talk about things. It makes sense.

Chris Williamson 42:56 Do you think that this stops Biden from stepping down because Trump now has a- a martyr vote?

Mike Baker 43:06 Y- well, I think, um... Yeah, that's, that's a... Yeah, that's a really interesting point. But I think it goes back to what I was saying when, uh, I was, I was trying to refer to the, the, the fact that the noise around Biden's situation has died down, uh, to no noise, right? So I think it does, uh, buy him significant time. And I think him coming out and saying, you know, "Look, we need to be civil. We need to think about how we talk about each other," and he's trying to be presidential. He's trying to show obviously, like with every event that he's had since the debate, that he's, he's up to the job. But I think it's making it more difficult, right, for the Democrats to continue to beat the drum. There were probably, prior to Saturday, there were probably more Democrats in Congress or in the Senate who were going to step out, you know, and say, "We think he needs to go," right? That, that was a building drumbeat. I think that i- it's more difficult now for them to do that because of the events of Saturday and because of the feeling like, "Okay, well maybe, you know, maybe we just gotta stick with Joe." Um...

Chris Williamson 44:11 Dude.

Mike Baker 44:12 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:12 Think about the last three weeks of fucking news.

Mike Baker 44:19 Yeah. Well, think about the la- I mean, really think about this past year, right? Everything that's been going on. I mean, uh, uh, obviously, you know, Ukraine, fucking Gaza, right? Um, you know, the, the, the discourse on the, around the election, this event on Saturday. I mean, good God. Um, you know, all we need is a pandemic.

Chris Williamson 44:40 (laughs)

Mike Baker 44:40 Um... Shit, sorry.

Chris Williamson 44:43 Uh-

Mike Baker 44:43 Sorry I shouldn't say that. That's terrible, but-

Chris Williamson 44:45 You, you know, dude-

Mike Baker 44:46 You know, not that we won't get one. We're gonna get another pandemic, by the way-

Chris Williamson 44:48 It'll happen. It'll happen.

Mike Baker 44:49 ... but, you know.

Chris Williamson 44:49 It'll continue to happen.

Mike Baker 44:50 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:50 Uh,

Chris Williamson 44:51 talk to me about J.D. Vance.

Mike Baker 44:55 Yeah, interesting. I guess not an, uh, unexpected choice. You know, they'd been banging on for a while saying it was either gonna be Vance or, or, uh, Burgum or, uh, Rubio. Um, and look, J.D. Vance is close to his, to Trump's son. They're very good friends. Uh, he's, he's an interesting cat, right? Has almost no poli-

Chris Williamson 45:16 I don't know anything about him. Explain to me who he is.

Mike Baker 45:19 Yeah, he's got almost no political experience. Uh, he wrote, uh, that book, Hillbilly Elegy, which was a very interesting book. I mean, a very interesting book. Um, and, you know, they made a movie out of it, I think. But he's a political newcomer. Um, he's been a very, uh, staunch supporter of Trump. Out o- he's outta Ohio. Um, and, you know, of the candidates, I don't know that... If what you were saying was, "I want to, I wanna pick a candidate who can really help me win over, um, you know, uh, groups that I'm, I'm, I, I need to win," I don't know that J.D. Vance is that person because he's, he's already got his base, right? And so I think J.D. Vance kinda shares the same supporters. Uh, Rubio, you know, could have shown up, uh, showed up Florida. Obviously, you know, with the Hispanic vote as well would help. He's a much more seasoned politician. Uh, Burgum is, you know, he's, he's a good friend of Trump's. He's, he's got, you know, very good political instincts, business instincts. Um, Nikki Haley was hanging out there, and I gotta tell you, if you wanted the moderates or you wanted the independent voters, um, y- you could argue f- Nikki Haley could have been a terrific choice, except they got, you know, they were so sideways with each other during the, the primary.

Chris Williamson 46:44 What do you think... Do you think there's any chance that Trump changed his VP pick post-Saturday?

Mike Baker 46:52 Oh, that's interesting. Uh, n- no, probably not. I think, I think the, the, the, the-

Chris Williamson 46:59 Wheels are in motion two months earlier.

Mike Baker 47:01 Yeah, I think the factor that would have changed his decision possibly would have been if Biden had stepped out, um-

Chris Williamson 47:07 Hmm.

Mike Baker 47:07 ... and had pulled himself out. That, that may have re- recalibrated the thinking perhaps, uh, over the VP pick, but I, I don't think Saturday. I think at that point he, he, you know, he just, he went with Vance, um, and didn't change his mind. Uh-

Chris Williamson 47:24 I, I was in a, I'm in a group chat with a bunch of different people here. Uh, one of them saying, uh, "Thiel hired him at his VC firm Mithril, uh, also endorsed his Senate campaign with the biggest individual donation ever for a Senate campaign of $15 million. Very happy with Vance. Super smart, competent veteran, Rust Belt, blue-collar orientation. Also, and sad that this is the case, he provides assassination insurance."

Mike Baker 47:50 (laughs) Yeah, well, look, I mean, Trump had been saying that, right? He said, you know, his, his decision over who to pick would be, you know, if something bad happens, are they ready to step in. But okay, to be fair, uh, you know, every presidential nominee says that, "I want my VP pick to be ready on day one." Um, and look, I, I like, I like Vance in the sense that he's, he's unique, right? He's not a, he's not a 110-year politician, right? And, uh, that's not a bad thing at all. And I like the fact that he's a veteran. That's a very good thing. Um, so I'm, I'm just saying it's an interesting choice in the sense that I don't know that it expands the voting block necessarily for the campaign because it's drawing from the same kinda block-

Chris Williamson 48:38 Hmm.

Mike Baker 48:38 ... as opposed to maybe one of the other picks, but then again, you know, you want somebody that you can, you know, be simpatico with, and Vance has been a staunch supporter.

Chris Williamson 48:48 Nikki, Nikki Haley might have just been a fucking nightmare from behind the scenes from day one.

Mike Baker 48:53 Y- well, I think it would have been (laughs) it would have been a very interesting dynamic.

Chris Williamson 48:57 Rusty.

Mike Baker 48:58 Yeah, yeah, I think that's, uh, that's the case, and maybe Rubio, you know, was a bit of the same way, you know. Maybe there was some, you know, concern over past, you know, you know, uh-... punches they'd thrown at each other, so who knows? Uh, uh, uh, at the end of the day, does it, does it matter all that much? I, I don't know that a VP pick matters all that much. Look, if, if Biden stays in, um, you know, I, I think the, the, the key has got to be saying, "Look, you're, you're not running against Biden. You're running against, you know, President Harris," because I don't think anybody in their right mind believes that Biden, you know, makes it through four years if he wins. So a, a vote for Biden is a vote for Kamala Harris, and you're willing to say that Kamala Harris, you know, is, is (laughs) could be the leader of the free world.

Chris Williamson 49:43 Jesus fucking Christ.

Mike Baker 49:44 And I can't even say that with a straight face.

Chris Williamson 49:46 I mean, that's, that's more terrifying than the president getting shot, or the presidential candidate being shot in the ear. Uh, I s- I've seen this map, the election map of when Reagan got shot afterward, and you've got red, red, red, red, red, red, red, red, red, and then this one blue dot that remained up at the top. How likely or how unlikely is that to be the case given the sort of never die, never Trump, et cetera, kind of, even after all of this? You, you've basically got the ultimate one-two punch, like jab in the face, Biden's completely incompetent. Punch, the other guy is totally competent and can literally get shot and stand up 15 seconds later.

Mike Baker 50:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 50:27 Uh, uh, uh, it ... But that's just ... Surely there's no way that we can see a, a huge red sweep in the same way.

Mike Baker 50:33 No.

Chris Williamson 50:33 Because people are just so, uh, passionate about hating Trump.

Mike Baker 50:37 Yeah. Yeah. It's that's it's a different, it's a, i- i- it's a different situation. You can't ... It's apples and oranges when you're talking about what happened with Reagan, I think, and, and so, look, there's no way he's gonna run the table or get anywhere close. It's gonna be a close race still, um, and I think that, you know, the, the, the jury's still out. Maybe, maybe when the noise dies down, right, and, you know, the election really heats up again and the rhetoric, you know, comes back kinda the way it was, that the Democrats, you know, start re-evaluating again, uh, Biden's, you know, uh, suitability. And, you know, so that could be, that could be the next big event in terms of the election season that we're, we're in the middle of.

Chris Williamson 51:17 Fucking

Chris Williamson 51:18 hell. Okay, so one other thing-

Mike Baker 51:20 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:20 ... that I really wanted to ask you, uh, one of your expertise, international relations.

Mike Baker 51:25 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 51:25 Uh, first off, have any other world leaders of interest said anything that's interesting, and secondly, how do you think other countries, the China's, the Russia's, the Iran's of the world, how do you think they interpret the ease with which a 20-year-old-

Mike Baker 51:43 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 51:43 ... bullied kid with bad hair was able to shoot the president's ear off?

Mike Baker 51:46 Yeah. Well, I think the, I think the jihadists are looking at it and going, "What? That's it? That's all they asked-"

Chris Williamson 51:51 (laughs)

Mike Baker 51:51 "... wanted me to do was climb up on a damn shed?" Um, yeah. So I think that they're looking at it from a security breakdown and thinking, "Oh my God, maybe we've been overthinking this." Right? Um ...

Chris Williamson 52:02 Gave them too much credit.

Mike Baker 52:03 Yeah. And so, uh, the, but the, look, the Chinese regime has always, Xi Jinping and, and the Foreign Ministry, they, you know, they were very muted in their response, uh, after the assassination attempt, and, you know, they, you know, wished, wished him well. Um, but they, they tend to, you know, try to be seen as not wading in because they don't want anybody stepping in their business. Um, European leaders said exactly what you would imagine. You know, everybody was condemning the political violence. Um, there was, weren't really many, um, mm, I'm trying to think. Slovakia, Robert Fico, you know, he made a couple of interesting comments (laughs) 'cause he had been, you know, the, uh, they'd tried to assassinate him not that long ago. Shot him, I think, four times. Um, so he, uh, he alluded to the idea that, you know, the, the rhetoric from the opposition party, you know, probably played a role.

Chris Williamson 52:58 Mm.

Mike Baker 52:59 But there, there, there was pretty much just what you would expect. You know, condemnation of, of political violence from, from world leaders, y- you know, UK, uh, Keir Starmer, the new prime minister, he came in and weighed in very quickly. Um, and, and so that makes sense. It's ... You wouldn't expect anything different. Um, the, I think Russian-

Chris Williamson 53:19 Did, do you think that-

Mike Baker 53:19 ... Russian, uh, I, I'm trying to remember what, what they, they, they didn't really say much. I think, uh, Peskov, the spokesperson for the Kremlin made a, made an off-handed comment, um, but, you know, basically it was-

Chris Williamson 53:31 Is it-

Mike Baker 53:31 ... not that interesting.

Chris Williamson 53:32 Is it another, another advertisement of America's infighting, operational poor management, the fact that one party that's kind of in charge of the protection detail for the other party isn't capable of e- s- stopping this? It's, it's more sort of America falling flat on its face on the world stage only recently after the guy that's in charge couldn't string a sentence together?

Mike Baker 53:56 Yeah. It was interesting. I mean, I, uh, uh, speaking of that, you know, the, the White House, during the NATO summit, which was just, you know, concluded last week, um, uh, John Kirby was, was asked, and he said, "Look, I, you know, the, nobody in NATO questions, uh, Biden's abilities," right? "We don't have to justify Biden to anybody. They all, you know, firmly believe..." Well, what else are the NATO leaders gonna say, you know? I mean, they, you know... But it was, it was interesting that, that even at that point when it was clear that there were some issues, um, the White House was still trying to portray Biden as, as, you know, being on top of his game and sharp as a tack and all the other ... Look, I, uh, again, we're all getting older, right? You know, you, me, everybody, we're all getting older. We all age differently, right? It's not age, it's mental acuity. And we've all got elderly parents. We've all got elderly grandparents. We all know what it looks like. So, um, I think the problem the White House has, even during this moment when that talk has died down, is that people understand that process, right? And they know what it looks like 'cause they've seen it or they've had to deal with it directly. So I don't know ultimately that they're gonna be able to hold the line and keep him in there, uh-But, frankly, Kamala Harris and John Kirby and Karine Jean-Pierre and, you know, everybody in his little circle and his family, um, they've kind of been lying to the American public, um, for quite some time now and trying to cover up what's been happening, despite the fact that we've been seeing bits and pieces of it. But that's why he hasn't been out there, right?

Chris Williamson 55:35 What was it called? What was it called when you, when you take videos out of context? What was that? There was a name for it.

Mike Baker 55:39 Oh, a cheap fake.

Chris Williamson 55:40 Cheap fake.

Mike Baker 55:41 Yeah, that's what... How they were referring to it. It was a, it was a cheap fake, uh, e- every time that there was a reference to it, or that we were just... And the media, for the most part, were willing to cover it up as well.

Chris Williamson 55:50 Fucking complicit, dude. Fucking complicit. Did you read, I think it was Ben Usher, he wrote an article called Common Knowledge?

Mike Baker 55:57 I didn't read that, no. Mm-mm.

Chris Williamson 55:58 I'll send it to you. I'll send it to you afterwards.

Mike Baker 55:59 Yeah, please.

Chris Williamson 55:59 So th- basically, the, the break... It's fucking phenomenal. It's so good. And, uh, it basically says that it's not enough for you to know a thing. You need to know that other people know that thing too. So for instance, it's not enough for you to know that Biden... It's the emperor's new clothes.

Mike Baker 56:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:17 Right?

Mike Baker 56:18 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:18 You can pick your favorite fairy tale of choice. Um, and the problem being that until you have reliable insight that other people will agree with your position, nobody is prepared to, uh, take the position. So it's not enough for you to know that you know.

Mike Baker 56:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:35 You need to know that everybody else also knows.

Mike Baker 56:37 Got it. Yep.

Chris Williamson 56:37 And what we saw on the debate night was common knowledge be distributed to the masses. There was nowhere else for anybody to hide. Therefore, when you come out as someone who previously has said, "Biden's sharp as a tack," or what... You know, pick New York Times, fucking, like, Washington Post, whoever it is-

Mike Baker 56:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:55 ... and then you pivot and say something else, well, it's a completely costless position to hold, because everybody else knows it. Like, it's the same with the free speech position. You know, free speech doesn't matter for people who agree with you or who you agree with. Free speech only matters for the people who you disagree with, because it's a costly position in order to be able to hold that. And it's the same with this common knowledge thing. And it's so interesting to me, because for those of us that exist terminally online in the heterodoxosphere of Substackistan, we have all known this for forever. This is something-

Mike Baker 57:31 Yep.

Chris Williamson 57:31 ... this is... To me, talking, like, doing jokes about Biden's mental degradation was hacky.

Mike Baker 57:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:37 It was so obvious-

Mike Baker 57:39 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:39 ... that it felt low-ball to say. And then you watch the debate and you go, "Oh, there's people in the world-

Mike Baker 57:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:47 ... who don't have access to my common knowledge." Now, I'm sure that there's shit tons of stuff that I don't know about, but that was one of the things that I did, so much so that I take it for granted. It's an accepted fact, and it's so much of an accepted fact that it would be hacky and low-ball to make a joke about it. And-

Mike Baker 58:01 Right.

Chris Williamson 58:02 ... "Oh, the world thinks that this is fucking revolutionary." And it really broke my brain for a while when I realized, oh, my understanding and the way that I see certain parts of the world and the way that maybe the rest of the pop- uh, a big chunk of the populous does-

Mike Baker 58:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:16 ... is, is fucking miles apart. I, I'm no fucking clairvoyant political divinity guy, but fuck me, I knew that. And for it to be a revelation was just like, oh, wow, this really does show how, uh, echo bubbles and the, still, the power of legacy media to be able to filter what actually gets down to the sort of ocean floor of most people. Uh, it, it... Wild, wild

Mike Baker 58:39 Yeah, and the, and the, and the ability to repeat a message, right? If you're, uh, you know, if you just keep saying the same thing over and over again-

Chris Williamson 58:45 "Sharp as a tack. Sharp as a tack. Sharp as a tack."

Mike Baker 58:46 Yeah, and, and then it... And then it works. And then, then we find out that they, you know, had been basically complicit in hiding this, and, you know, that's why... Uh, a- and then, of course, you know, people come out and pundits come out and, and people who had just been on, on their shows, you know, talking about how great he is, you know, saying, "Well, I... You know, we've kind of seen this for a while. I can't believe that they've hid it from us." And I think, uh, it's, it's kind of like, it's kind of like, again, what we talked about earlier, calling Trump "Hitler" and then the next day wishing him well. You know, it's, it's, it's that, it's that immediate turnaround that to me is shocking. But, but people just move on, right? And they, uh, and they know that, right? They know they can do this. There's almost no shame, because they're just like, "Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna pivot and completely reverse my position, and, eh, I'll be fine in a day or two." Um, it's, it's shocking. But anyway...

Chris Williamson 59:35 In the interim, just,

Chris Williamson 59:36 just rounding out the conversation on security-

Mike Baker 59:39 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 59:39 ... does Tim Kennedy or Erik Prince need to be called in? Do you, do you go private security to, uh, bolster, uh, Trump's security detail, or maybe, maybe other people's security details?

Mike Baker 59:51 No. No. I think, look, I'd, I'd, you know... I was out in... We had a large operation out in Iraq, um, early days of Iraq, right? I'm talking '03, '04, '05, '06. I mean... And, uh, you know, we were... We had a large private security operation out there, and, and, um, uh, that's a, that's a, that's a war zone, so it's a little bit different. But when we're talking about augmenting Secret Service with, you know, private security, I, I, I, I, I don't think so. I think, look, they-

Chris Williamson 1:00:23 What are the challenges that you face when you try to augment Secret Service with, with private guys?

Mike Baker 1:00:28 Uh, you kn-

Chris Williamson 1:00:28 Hierarchy? Power?

Mike Baker 1:00:29 Yeah, you're just, you're just layering on potential communications and command and control issues, and, and I just think it's... And it's also, um... I think... Look, the Secret Service, uh, they're staffed with some great people, right? We always have to be careful about... You know, there's, there's this tendency to say, "Oh, they're all screwed. Dismantle it." Do you know? That's it. There's that cry about, "You gotta get rid of the Bureau and get rid of the agency," and do all these things. And I'm thinking, really? That's, that's (laughs) that's your take on this? Um, how about just f- fixing problems? And, uh, so the Secret Service, uh, augmented by, uh, local and state, uh, you know, law enforcement, uh, they can do the job. They've been doing the job, right? Um-You know, part of this is th- y- they've got to, they've got to be transparent again. They've gotta come out and say, "These are the steps that, that occurred." And, and-

Chris Williamson 1:01:24 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 1:01:24 ... some of them won't surprise us because we all watched, right? Um, but they've gotta be very clear about what those steps are, and they've gotta be very clear about how they intend to not have it happen again, right? And that's gonna require some people taking responsibility, and that's where I think that can be a problem. Because you have to make people at the top take responsibility and maybe suffer some consequences, as opposed to just saying, you know, the officer on the ground who failed to communicate in real time what he was about to do by going up on that building, you know, that's the guy who's, you can all blame.

Chris Williamson 1:01:55 Yeah. I- I have had it in my head since Saturday, I wonder whether there is a level of negligence you reach where it almost becomes complicity.

Mike Baker 1:02:04 (inhales sharply) Well, I don't, I don't think it's complicity. It could be, um, what's the word I'm looking for? Complacency, you know, maybe at, at times. Um, well, you know-

Chris Williamson 1:02:12 I think, you know, it just, the, the, the reason that I brought up the private security thing is I saw that trailer saying, "30% of Secret Service staff are going to be female by 2030."

Mike Baker 1:02:24 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:02:24 I, I spoke to Tim, and Tim explained to me that the mile time for guys versus girls to run is different. The weight load that you need to be able to lift is different.

Mike Baker 1:02:33 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:02:33 The height, all of the rest of the stuff. You know, you saw a, a woman who was, he came up, she came up to Trump's nipple, maybe? You know, we got this big guy, got this big dude, and this, like, little woman in front. Really? That's where he decided, that's where he decided to go as far as the height measurement was the nipple? (laughs) Yeah, the nipple. I think that's precisely where she, that's precisely where she got to.

Mike Baker 1:02:52 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:02:52 And, um, you know, I, I want-

Mike Baker 1:02:54 No, I, I know what you mean. And then, you know, there were, you had a, you had an agent, you know, kind of fumble fucking with their weapon, trying to re-hol, you know, holster it.

Chris Williamson 1:02:59 That was the same one who used Trump, hid behind Trump like this, like sort of in-

Mike Baker 1:03:05 So-

Chris Williamson 1:03:05 ... that kind of like, uh, t- for the fucking, the gu- woman in the kitchen from Tom and Jerry, like, "Ew."

Mike Baker 1:03:12 (laughs) Yeah, that's a great cultural pull right there.

Chris Williamson 1:03:15 Yeah, you haven't thought about that for a while, have you?

Mike Baker 1:03:17 These kids right now are looking up-

Chris Williamson 1:03:17 Have you?

Mike Baker 1:03:17 ... Tom and Jerry.

Chris Williamson 1:03:19 Fuck, yeah.

Mike Baker 1:03:19 Uh, look, I, I-

Chris Williamson 1:03:20 But, my, my-

Mike Baker 1:03:20 ... think, I think there's, uh, you, there's no room for DEI in, in the world of operations and security, right? You just simply choose the b- And it should be the way it is in everything, not just those sectors, but you, you choose the most qualified, capable people. Um, and if they can't cut it, then you move them out, and you bring in somebody who's more capable and qualified. And you're right, you can't... You, y- there's a problem when you, when you... 'Cause I think the Secret Service will say that, "Look, we didn't lower the standards," right? "That's not, that's not what we did," right? But you hear that all the time. Problem is that that belies the reality, right? Out in Iraq is a good example, right? For a while there, it was only, "We're only bringing former, you know, Spec Ops guys out," right? Well, that's a, that's a, that's a small pool, right? There's not a lot, (laughs) there's not a lot of former guys there with that qualification. So then you started seeing, you know, everybody, squaddies and everybody coming out there and claiming that they were a Spec Ops former, you know, this and that. And, and so, uh, you've got a, you've got a limited pool of capable people, I believe, right? That you can choose from for certain jobs. And you just have to take those people and say, "Fuck DEI. That's not what's important in this business," right? Um, and, and again, I'm, I, I don't wanna rush to judgment, right? I don't know the qualifications of these people. We have to kind of look and see. You always, you know, let's be measured, that sort of thing. But I take your point, and I, I don't disagree with it at all.

Chris Williamson 1:04:47 Well, the, the problem being, the reason that I ment- I mentioned, uh, Eric or Tim or some other private contractor is that, you know, uh, Tim brought it up to me. He said, "The people that you see that are on Trump's detail, even though they may not have performed like the A-team, they weren't hired yesterday." You don't get hired and then get put on a-

Mike Baker 1:05:05 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:05:05 ... presidential candidate's detail.

Mike Baker 1:05:07 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:05:07 You have been in the agency for a while. You've been hired and trained long ago. You've been around for a long time. So-

Mike Baker 1:05:13 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:05:13 ... in order to say, "Well, we're going to rectify it, we're going to train better, we're going to hire better, we're going to change the DEI initiative, we're gonna do whatever it is that they say that they're going to do," brilliant. You know, the '28- Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 1:05:23 ... election may very well be more, way more secure than this one. But, you know, when you're thinking what's gonna happen over the next however long, R- RFK Jr. has just been given, uh, S- Secret- Right.

Chris Williamson 1:05:33 ... uh, Service detail. That's gonna take some of the resources away. And how many people are going to have their time taken up going through fucking meeting after meeting after hearing after court case after jo-

Mike Baker 1:05:44 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:05:44 ... investigation? As you said, sucking the oxygen out of the room and taking the attention away from the thing that it needs to be focused on. So yeah, I, I, I don't know, man. I mean, it, America is not showering itself in glory. And oddly, the only person that is at the moment is Trump.

Mike Baker 1:05:58 (laughs) That's a great way to put it. That's, no, I, yeah, that's, that's gonna drive a lot of people crazy when they hear you say that, but, um-

Chris Williamson 1:06:08 It's fucking true. Dude, I, I, people can go back and listen. I, I don't think I've ever been complimentary about Trump. Not that-

Mike Baker 1:06:14 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:06:14 ... I was particularly critical of him over Biden, but I'm like-

Mike Baker 1:06:16 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:06:17 ... he's just a fucking dude. He's a dude that's kind of a bit crazy. And n- I just think, s- tell me, tell me that you look at that photo and you don't think, "Fuck yeah." Like that's-

Mike Baker 1:06:26 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:06:26 ... some late '80s flag-flying Americana-

Mike Baker 1:06:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:06:32 ... like legitimacy. Um-

Mike Baker 1:06:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:06:35 It's, it's, it's crazy, but-

Mike Baker 1:06:36 It's almost like he's out there yelling, "Wolverines," right?

Chris Williamson 1:06:38 (laughs)

Mike Baker 1:06:39 You know? Yeah, no, I, I, again, and, and it's that imagery that's so important, right? Because people make decisions quickly. People don't dig deep, you know, then, and, and they're gonna see that, and maybe they make up their mind. And, and you know what? Uh, again, you can't... What, are you gonna argue with that? Are you gonna look at that, and then you're gonna look at, at President Biden from the debate, and you're gonna go, "Okay, who's more fit?"

Chris Williamson 1:06:56 Fucking obviously.

Mike Baker 1:06:57 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:06:58 Tell you what's, tell you what's an

Chris Williamson 1:06:59 awesome, awesome video that you can get a hold of. So, uh, Evan, the guy that took the photo, um-

Mike Baker 1:07:06 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:07:06 ... he is a Brazilian jiu-jitsu guy, looks an awful lot like a Navy SEAL. Like mass-

Mike Baker 1:07:11 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:07:11 He looks like, he looks like a young Jocko Willink. Hard fucking dude.

Mike Baker 1:07:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:07:15 And, um, if you watch the video, there's a panned-out version of the stage. And-... those shots start firing. He doesn't stop and cower. He starts strafing across the front of the stage to get those shots. There's two-

Mike Baker 1:07:28 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:07:28 ... guys that get them. Really interesting video that you can find, um, which was shot on a pair of Ray-Ban Meta glasses. So I've, I've got a pair of those too.

Mike Baker 1:07:35 Yes.

Chris Williamson 1:07:35 So it's a pair of sunglasses-

Mike Baker 1:07:36 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:07:37 ... that you wear, and they've got two little lenses on either side, and they can shoot up to about a minute of video in very high quality, and the color representation is really good. And this guy... So Evan's the guy that took the photo, the photos-

Mike Baker 1:07:48 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:07:48 ... that are going around everywhere. There's another dude who presumably got very similarly good photos as that one.

Mike Baker 1:07:52 Yeah, I think he's from the New York Times, I think. Yeah, Doug Mills maybe. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:07:55 So he... Yeah, it is Doug Mills. He had the foresight when he's round the back, he's round the back of the stage, and the video begins, but you can't remotely start those glasses. So he's had, uh, his, his camera like this, or whatever it is, like this-

Mike Baker 1:08:11 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:08:11 ... and he's shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, and he's taken his hand off, pressed the button, held it, because you have to hold it if you want to take a video, and then gone back to that. And if you watch, I, I messaged Dean, the guy that'll edit this episode, you met him in, in Miami, my video guy.

Mike Baker 1:08:23 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:08:24 I was asking him, "What is that dude..." Doug? "What's, what's that dude doing?" Because you actually see, from his glasses, you can see both of his hands, right? So he's got his-

Mike Baker 1:08:33 Hm.

Chris Williamson 1:08:33 ... hands up like this and you're looking at this thing. And, um, he, uh, he's shooting a lot... This is during a firefight.

Mike Baker 1:08:39 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:08:40 These guys, it's so cool. I love seeing people who know their craft inside out doing something. And what's coolest about this isn't the sho- the shots that you get, it's the seamlessness with which he does it. So you can see that he's shooting and he can't frame up properly, so he takes his hand off the front of the, the camera, flips the screen down so that he can get a better look-

Mike Baker 1:09:01 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:09:01 ... and he's, uh, he's working on his, I think, either exposure or focus, whatever Dean said, and then, uh, he's checking, he's checking the screen. He's going like this. And Dean was like, "He's working about every one to tw- one and a half seconds, he's looking at the composition of his shot during this." So he's shooting, shooting, shooting, look. Shooting, shooting, shooting, looks. Shooting, shooting, shooting, shooting-

Mike Baker 1:09:21 Huh?

Chris Williamson 1:09:21 ... and then burst, burst, burst, burst, burst. I was, I'm like, "That's one of the coolest parts of it." Unbelievable.

Mike Baker 1:09:26 You know what else? You know what else is amazing? If you watch right behind Trump, there's some lady, right? As soon as the shooting starts, literally the shooting starts, she puts up her phone. I- and she just, she's just in the audience, right? She's like w- first or second row behind Trump. So you gotta watch th- watch the videos that are out there and you'll see. She's got a... I think she's got a white case on her phone.

Chris Williamson 1:09:49 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 1:09:49 And she's sitting there and wearing a white shirt, I think, and she... And, and then literally the... it starts off and th- her, she just puts her phone up. And I'm like, "God."

Chris Williamson 1:09:59 So I, I don't know whether this is true. Tim is the only guy that's told me this. He said that the man who died, uh, Com- Com- Compam... What's his name?

Mike Baker 1:10:08 Compitore.

Chris Williamson 1:10:09 Com- Yeah, Th-

Mike Baker 1:10:09 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:10:09 Thank you.

Mike Baker 1:10:09 Corey Compitore.

Chris Williamson 1:10:11 Yes. Um, he apparently, this is what Tim said, threw himself on top of his family-

Mike Baker 1:10:18 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:10:18 ... and that he took the, the shot in his head whilst basically-

Mike Baker 1:10:22 Yeah, that's what the reports are saying. Yeah, that's what people have said.

Chris Williamson 1:10:23 ... using his body, which is the Aurora, Colorado shooting all over again, right? That-

Mike Baker 1:10:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:10:27 ... someone goes in and boyfriends throw themselves on top of girlfriends.

Mike Baker 1:10:30 That's right. Yeah, yeah. No, it's... You know, and I think, uh, I think that's another reason why... Look, y- you know, if, if no one else had been hurt, maybe they would treat it a little bit differently, but you can't... You gotta be very measured about how they talk about this, uh, from the Republican side, from the campaign side. And I think they, th- their best thing to do is just let it go. Obviously, they'll probably reference it during the RNC speeches or whatever, but they gotta let it go. Just go, and then just, and then just let... You know, some of the imagery speak for itself-

Chris Williamson 1:10:55 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 1:10:55 ... but move on and go to the issues and, and, and-

Chris Williamson 1:10:57 So it, it looks too, um, callous to-

Mike Baker 1:11:02 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:11:03 ... uh, to use it as a, "Look at how awesome we are, we're hard as nails," whilst a guy died and there's m- one or two people still in intensive care.

Mike Baker 1:11:09 Exactly. Dude, I, I hate to say this, but I gotta pop.

Chris Williamson 1:11:13 That's all right. Dude-

Mike Baker 1:11:14 I'm out.

Chris Williamson 1:11:14 ... I appreciate you for doing this. Emergency episode, I needed to get

Chris Williamson 1:11:17 you on. Uh, Mike Baker, ladies and gentlemen, MB Company man?

Mike Baker 1:11:21 MB Company man. Um, also, uh, the President's Daily Brief podcast. Look at me marketing right now. Just before we finish up, I'm putting that ........................ talk about that, but the President's Daily Brief podcast available on all podcast platforms, and we do a weekend TV show now called The Situation Report.

Chris Williamson 1:11:38 Well, you'll have a lot to talk about next weekend. Mate, I really appreciate you. Uh-

Mike Baker 1:11:41 Absolutely.

Chris Williamson 1:11:41 ... stay safe at the RNC. If you enjoyed that episode, you will love a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last couple of months, and it's available right here. Go on, give 'em a watch.