Why Aren’t Men’s Issues Being Taken Seriously? - George TheTinMen

1. 0:00 – 3:11

   Mental Toughness is Toxic Masculinity

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      "Men's mental toughness is just toxic masculinity rebranded," writer Jill Stark says. "A cult hero, Ned Brockman's grueling 1,600-kilometer charity run has Aussies talking, but not everybody sees it in a positive light." What do you think about this?

   2. G(George (TheTinMen)0:16

      I mean, it's just one more absurd headline adding to the- the many, many things that we can blame for, blame toxic masculinity for, which is absurd. I mean, for me, it's part of like a bigger problem where men's mental health needs are often sort of different to women's. And like, some of the crazy things men do, such as run 1,600, uh, kilometers and raising millions of pounds, are just outside the view- the view of people like Jill who think such a thing is toxic and, uh, not actually an amazing achievement for anyone. Uh-

   3. CWChris Williamson0:46

      Despite the fact that they're raising tons of money for charity as well.

   4. G(George (TheTinMen)0:49

      Yeah. So a man, he ran 1,600 kilometers, raised maybe one and a half million Australian dollars for the homeless, which is like, I don't know what more you could possibly want. That's still toxic masculinity somehow, and uh, it just isn't. And uh, yeah, I mean, one of the many absurd... We could have a whole podcast just going through these headlines, and just one of the many things that just washes over you. But thankfully, some things are just a little bit too stupid to be offensive, and that sort of qualifies very much so under that category.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:16

      What do you make of the current world of advocacy for men?

   6. G(George (TheTinMen)1:22

      Honestly, it seems to be quite splitting a little bit. I feel like as it becomes... As any movement becomes lo- sort of larger, it reaches a critical mass, which is a lovely thing, it sort of... It seems to be fragmenting into different view sets, which we can't really afford to do. And I guess the elephant in the room is there's certain large organizations that are becoming, in my opinion, too entwined in politics and losing sight of their own mission statement, which is the first, second, and third priority is to help men and ultimately save men's lives. That's my priority. And some- unfortunately, we're in an area of advocacy that is just innately unpopular right now. It's uncomfortable, and it requires, you know, making some sacrifices and doing some things that are not gonna get a huge amount of credit but are necessary on the list.

   7. CWChris Williamson2:06

      It's interesting to think about when a movement is too big to be small but too small to be big. It's still kind of revolutionary but has sufficient size to warrant splinter factions-

   8. G(George (TheTinMen)2:18

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson2:18

      ... and, uh, different sort of approaches.

   10. G(George (TheTinMen)2:21

       Well, it's... Well, I'm- I'm really interested in things like the diffusion of innovation, where it basically maps how a movement becomes viral. And as I'm sure you know, you need about 13% of adoption by the- the public for it to go viral, and then it meet- hits that mass market success. So you have that bell curve of the diffusion of innovation. And I- I've always wondered, where are we on that bell curve? How- when are we gonna reach that tipping point of 12% where the mass- the mass market, the early and late majority as it's called, they're like, "Actually, this is something that I can now get on board with. The risk is now at a acceptable level." And I'm like, "We're- we're getting there." And I mean, I really want to get there together. I really feel like we need to work as a single unit here, and we need to keep communicating, and we need to sort of have the same shared objectives. So yeah, I mean, that's where I want to get to, and perhaps that'll be the end product of this podcast.

   11. CWChris Williamson3:09

       Who are the market

2. 3:11 – 11:46

   Movember’s Work on Male Mental Health

   1. CWChris Williamson3:11

      leaders in this?

   2. G(George (TheTinMen)3:12

      The market leaders. I mean, the money- the money is owned by Movember, which is the elephant in the room. Uh, Movember. People think Movember is just a meme, and it is a meme. Movember is like the whole idea of men, uh, growing a mustache for Mo- uh, for November. It started in Australia maybe 20 years ago, but it's far more than that. Movember now is one of the largest, most powerful NGOs in the world. I think it's one of the top 50. It's absolutely the most- the largest, richest, most powerful men's health and male suicide charity on the planet. And they are the ones that have the money, to be honest. They're the ones that through which the money is given. They don't do work directly themselves. They take money from different donors that grow their mustaches, fund runs, bake sales, et cetera, and they'll distribute it to other people. So researchers and groups and various other things. So, that's how it's structured. And to be honest, that- that comes with risks in its own right too.

   3. CWChris Williamson4:05

      How so?

   4. G(George (TheTinMen)4:06

      Well, I feel like any- any organization that has a- a huge amount of money and power and influence and others that don't, you've got to remember, the- the men's health and male suicide sector, the men's sector, is deeply impoverished. Like I know people that are doing groundbreaking research, and yet they're working second jobs, they're sitting dogs. I know- I know a guy called Jody who's trying to open the first men's abuse shelter in the UK, and he is sit- sat right now at his kitchen table just answering his own phone. He's answering the phone to men. He's taken a thousand calls this year. He's not- not been paid a single penny. He's taken no salary, and he's just answering the phone to anyone who'll call him. And there's so many charities that get nothing. Like, I- I got to mention ManKind, who are an amazing charity. They own the only shelters in England for male- male abuse victims. Zero pounds from the government funding it nationally, that is. Zero pounds. So, there is a massive lack of money and funding in the men's sector, and because it's all going to people like Movember. And it's- it's frustrating because everyone talks to me about, "No one cares about men. No one cares about men." And I do- they do care about men, because there's s- so much money raised for (laughs) Movember. There's lots of people doing amazing work in November, like right now. But the money just doesn't seem to be getting spent in the right way, in my opinion. And uh, that's a problem. It's not a lack of effort and not a lack of ambition or generosity or compassion from the public. It's- it's just not being used in the right way. What we can

   5. CWChris Williamson5:33

      What do you make of-

   6. G(George (TheTinMen)5:34

      ... bear into-

   7. CWChris Williamson5:34

      Yeah, what do you make of Movember's efforts?

   8. G(George (TheTinMen)5:37

      (sighs) Well, I mean, I want to qualify everything I say right now. Movember is a massive organization. Massive. I think they've done about 1,200 projects. They're in about 20 countries, including the U- mainly the UK, Canada, uh, Australia, and America. Uh, they do amazing work. They do amazing work especially in things like prostate cancer and men's health. They d- they've done some really great work recently where they're talking about men who die young in the UK. So they found that I think 15 men die young every hour.... in the UK. So in the end of this podcast, that's 15 men who have died young. Most of those, most of those deaths are avoidable if we can increase the sort of, the health literacy amongst men, and sort of do more work for men's health. And no one can argue with that. That's really, really important. My issue with Movember was in, within their mental health area, and, and certain things in terms of, prioritizing sort of parts of it. I mean, (laughs) I'm, it's hard to dance around the subject, but basically my main issue is their recent advocacy around violence against women. And you've got to remember, violence against men is a massive deal that no one's taking seriously. One in three victims of abuse in the UK is a man, and that is me being conservative. In America, it's one in two. If you look at the CBC data, it's one in two. And like people might say, "That's not true," but go check it for yourself. The research, I'm happy to present you with so much research. Ho- I can literally give you hundreds of papers to prove that. But it's at least one in three, and there is virtually no refuge for men, and virtually no res- refuge for, um, in America or the UK. And I think in America, there's maybe two shelters for men. In the UK, there's a few more, but really nothing. And Movember recently, and this is where a point of contention I have with them, they've been sort of allying themselves with organizations that are trying to end violence against women, and even giving money over to violence against women. And that, to me, is not right. That, to me, intuitively, is not right. That does not make sense, especially what I know about how impoverished and how desperate, uh, men, men's shelters and people like Jodie, my friend, are for, for money. I need to qualify another thing, is that when I criticize violence against women, that does not mean I am pro-violence against women. No one is pro fucking violence against women. The naming of violence against women is extremely effective because it's named after a really important sentiment, violence against women. Like who doesn't want to end that? Like I want to end violence against women just as much as anyone does. The issue that I have are a certain amount of policies around violence against women that basically gender it. Gendered violence, meaning that men and boys are, are taken out of the picture, and the funding, the, the policy, the shelter is given exclusively, more or less, to women and girls. And those, that one in three victims are men, which in the UK represents about 750,000 men every year, there's nowhere for them to go. There's no, there's really no help.

   9. CWChris Williamson8:23

      What is the abuse that you're talking about? What, what, what constitutes abuse or gendered violence? What is that?

   10. G(George (TheTinMen)8:29

       Difficult. I mean, this is why some stats say one in three, some stats say one in two. In Australia, it's one in four victims is a man. It really depends on what do you consider violence. Does that include emotional or psychological abuse or financial abuse or abuse by proxy? Are we specifically talking about physical abuse? In America, if you're talking specifically about violence, physical violence by a partner, there are actually more male victims of physical violence by a partner according to the ce- uh, center for, uh, CDC. And that's just a shocking stat, but that is also true, and like, that report, that survey comes out every few years, and I dread the years where there are more victims, more male victims, 'cause I'm like, "This is gonna be so fucking unpopular."

   11. CWChris Williamson9:09

       Your point being that you would have to talk about it, you're gonna report on the actual stats, and you can't say something that would be more popular publicly-

   12. G(George (TheTinMen)9:16

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson9:16

       ... because you have to say the thing which is unpopular publicly.

   14. G(George (TheTinMen)9:18

       Well, let's just say I, I prefer it when it's one in three, 'cause it just, it just takes the edge off a little bit. When it's more, when there's a greater disparity of men, uh, but I put it up nonetheless.

   15. CWChris Williamson9:27

       What would you say, what would you say to the people who go, "Uh, th- there's a, an imbalance in abuse, especially gendered violence, because men are more effective. Men are stronger, therefore the severity of the violence in one direction over the other is going to be much worse."

   16. G(George (TheTinMen)9:45

       I'd say that's sometimes true, sometimes not. The latest data for the Office for National Statistics, which is the, sort of the government's data body in the UK, finds the exact opposite, finds that men are more often injured. So male victims are more often injured by female partners than the opposite way around. So that intuitively sounds right, and I would totally understand people that would say that. And it often is right, but not always. I mean, this is the issue I find with the discussion of violence against women, is that it so often becomes centered around the very, very extreme, like mostly homicides, like people who are killed by partners. And that is mostly women, absolutely. But that is also a small part of the problem. That is like, you know, a tiny, tiny percentage. I interviewed Don Durton recently, and he, he summarized it well. He said, um, "We measure domestic homicide per million couples, but we measure domestic violence per hundred couples." So you can sort of see the disparity how it's, it's a much different scale. And that's not to say domestic homicide isn't important, and that's not to say that men aren't also killed by their partners. I think it's about one in four victims of domestic homicide is a man, and if you look at male, male victims, so including children, like it's even closer. It's really close to, to 50/50, 'cause there's a massive, um, disproportionate number of boys killed, often by parents. So if you bring in the boys, then it's very similar. I think in Australia, I think it's about 36 males and 44 females killed in domestic violence, rather than intimate partner violence. And it's so frustrating, 'cause people say, "Well, women are just killing their partners from self-defense." And I'm not, well, I'm not talking about women or men. I'm talking about children. And if you consider that the majority of males killed by their partners, by family members are boys, I'm like, well, who, who is defending themselves from a child? So it doesn't make sense. And I mean, I would just, I guess I'd underscore it by saying every, every victim needs to be spoken about. I don't, it doesn't matter if it's 1%. Doesn't matter. And like it doesn't matter if it's one single person, I would say they're just as important as anyone else.

3. 11:46 – 19:07

   Why is Movember Funding Female Issues?

   1. G(George (TheTinMen)11:46

   2. CWChris Williamson11:46

      What's the issue of a men's health charity like Movember getting behind a movement that tries to reduce violence against women?

   3. G(George (TheTinMen)11:56

      Nothing. Uh, Movember is a men's health charity, and there is lots of work, but by no means enough, but lots more work being done to end violence against women. Violence against men isn't even a thing. Violence against... And quite literally isn't a thing. Like if you're a male victim of abuse in the UK...... you are literally classified as a victim of violence against women.

   4. CWChris Williamson12:17

      How so? How-

   5. G(George (TheTinMen)12:18

      Like, like literally, like the government released a document not long ago, two years ago, and it, the title of this document was Supporting Male Victims of Violence Against Women. And I'm like, so you're a man being abused by a woman, and you're somehow a victim of violence against women. So we arrive at this crazy sort of backward somersault of sort of mental gymnastics where a male victim is now a victim of violence against women. And-

   6. CWChris Williamson12:45

      Give me, give me the steel man case for why it's framed like that, and then give me the more concerning potential reason for why it's framed like that.

   7. G(George (TheTinMen)12:55

      One of my more tin hat reasons behind why we don't care about men, I asked Erin Pizzey this, who was the founder of the first domestic violence shelter anywhere in the world, which was in Chiswick, London, and I- I- she was thrown out of her own charity because she wanted to help male victims, and, uh, she, she wanted to talk about interactive violence where both partners were abusing each other and which is half of all domestic violence is, is that. I asked her, "Why are we doing this? Why don't we help men? Why d- why is not, why is there not more support?" And she just said one word, "Money." She just said, "Money," like they don't want to share the money. Like if you look at S- um, Sandra Hawley, who w- who was the CEO of Refuge UK, which is the largest domestic violence charity in the world, like she's, she's on record saying, "If we were to say men are as likely to be abused as women, we would have to share the money." And they don't want to do that. So they're-

   8. CWChris Williamson13:45

      But this is going in the other direction. You're talking about an organization like Movember, which already has lots of money, probably, I would guess, receives like 90 out of every 100 pounds given to men in one form or another, maybe even more. Um, uh, I don't understand why this reverse trick h- is being played in that regard. If the women's charities already have more than they need, why is a m- men's charity-

   9. G(George (TheTinMen)14:10

      Well-

   10. CWChris Williamson14:10

       ... donating money to it?

   11. G(George (TheTinMen)14:11

       They seem to stick to a more antiquated model of men's health that is more around, you know, like blood pressure and obesity and like the physical side of men's health. Whereas I can s- I wanna look more broadly, I'm more interested in the systemic societal causes of men's health that hurt men. So that's, that's where the divide is. Like, I would say, like, uh, for instance, a man who's raped in prison is a men's health issue. A father losing his child in family court is a men's health issue. A husband abused by his wife is a men's health issue. A boy being bullied is a, a men's issue. Like men's health isn't just about prostates and, you know, BMIs and all that, and those are important, but we have a different definition of men's health. That's where the divide is. I- I think men's health is out there, and Movember seems to think men's health is in here, and they, they just don't consider it. Um, they consider, from what, what I can understand, they consider violence against women a men's health issue, which doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me. But from their perspective, they want to help treat violent men to stop them from abusing women, which is a, a, a noble cause, but again, you're just looking at one side of the problem. Like you, you can't solve any equation for one side. You've got to look at both sides, like both partners need help. Like I said, half of all violent relationships, both partners are doing it. They're both participating in a cycle of violence that spirals out of control and, you know, an argument will become yelling, and yelling will become shoving, and shoving, someone gets slapped, and then the slapping, it becomes punching, and it gets worse and worse and worse. So it's certainly important to help men be less violent through certain treatments. But that, again, that's only one half of that cycle. So yeah, they, they want to reduce violence by men against women by seeing it as a men's health issue and I guess doing certain therapies to encourage what they consider healthy masculinity, which is a rather nebulous term in its own right.

   12. CWChris Williamson16:05

       So violence against women is a men's health issue, and violence against men is a violence against women issue?

   13. G(George (TheTinMen)16:14

       Yeah. (laughs) Yeah, I mean, that's how, it's, they- they certainly don't consider violence against men a men's health issue, but violence against women is a men's health issue. And it just, it re- it just reminds me of like this strange political dancing where they're basic- in my opinion, they're just afraid. They're afraid to talk about violence against men.

   14. CWChris Williamson16:30

       Well, I understand why. Look, look, I had this conversation with Richard Reeves, which you got to see, and-

   15. G(George (TheTinMen)16:35

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson16:35

       ... I, I, I get this sense that anybody who is trying to run a public-facing legitimate, not like you or me, illegitimate-

   17. G(George (TheTinMen)16:46

       Yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson16:46

       ... uh, you know, outside of wedlock, uh, f- communicators, um, anybody that's trying to do forward-facing stuff in Washington DC, in Sydney, Australia, or in London, England, and is trying to have these conversations, they need to do the, pay this penance. They need to sort of kiss the ring of, of the existing gendered mental health, gendered health, gendered violence, gendered marital issues, uh, cliches and stereotypes and, and, and caricatures in the way that this stuff runs. Um, because it is still too big to be small, too small to be big. It is not yet sufficiently big or widely adopted that you can talk about the problems of boys and men without first saying, "We know the problems of girls and women are a big deal as well."

   19. G(George (TheTinMen)17:31

       Mm-hmm. That's true.

   20. CWChris Williamson17:31

       And this is like a, a structural operational policy political nod. The, uh, we know, we know, we know. Look, we, all of the support or the support that we give to men, uh, can't be done. It, you, you can't, uh, call us, castigate us for being uncaring misogynists that are anti-feminist. Look, we gave money to Vogue and i- in, in, in, in that regard-

   21. G(George (TheTinMen)17:55

       Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson17:55

       ... I think, well, maybe that's a weird kind of entry price that you need to pay. But something tells me, in your opinion, that-

   23. G(George (TheTinMen)18:01

       No.

   24. CWChris Williamson18:01

       ... you don't need to do this.

   25. G(George (TheTinMen)18:02

       I think it's mostly bullshit, in my opinion, to call it what it is. Like, I mean, go look and talk about your Richard Reeves podcast, uh, it's self-evident that you both spent 20 minutes talking about that. The, the first 20 minutes of a podcast about men, you spent talking about women. And I was like, that makes the point, like how many people dropped out?... as a result? Probably quite a few. And it's not good enough. Like you're only undermining yourself long term. It reminds me of people that say, "Oh, well, I'm not a racist, but..." Well then, I'm like don't fucking say it then. Don't say it, you don't need to say that. Like the proof is self-evident. Like no one could ever accuse Richard Reeves of being a misogynist, and someone that would c- should not, should not be bargained with, can't be bargained with. And you shouldn't... Like I just feel all this penance paying and apologies, and this long litany of small print that has to seemingly come with every single piece of well-meaning advocacy men who are always... You're just burning bridges with people like me that are not doing that, and refuse to do that. And it's not... I don't think it works long term. I think you weaken your point. I feel like you're setting a precedent that we don't want to follow, and we won't be following. Um...

4. 19:07 – 22:53

   Biggest Elephant in the Room in Men’s Issues

   1. G(George (TheTinMen)19:07

   2. CWChris Williamson19:07

      What's the biggest elephant in the room around men's issues at the moment?

   3. G(George (TheTinMen)19:12

      Oh. Like th- the clear intertwining of politics. Once money's put into large organizations... Like I've been very enthused by th- by Richard, for example, $20 million from Melinda Gates. Uh, Movember are about to open up a $100 million Movember Institute. There's money to be spent, and with money comes expectations and politics. So I can understand there are political expectations. Uh, I'm sure they're sat around tables, women's organizations being told what they can and can't say, what they can and can't argue about. I don't... I have no doubt people at Movember care. Actually, I know they do care 'cause people have contacted me from within Movember to say, "We do care, but we can't do anything, because we're playing this political dance." And that is just not good enough for Movember to seemingly be scared of just sharing the truth of male victims of abuse, in this example, to be afraid or browbeaten by, who knows, unknown feminist organizations it seems. Not en-... And also, our own government are afraid of these organizations, and they're on record in saying that. It's not good enough. Now, I'm sat here with nothing. I don't have that $100 million. I don't have their large legal teams to defend me. Uh, I have noth- I'm just sat here with a laptop, and I'm doing the hard work. I'm the one that's actually taking risks, and those like me. And to hear these large organizations suggest that they're afraid or, you know, "We'd love to do what you do, George, but, you know, we just can't." I say, "Of course, you can. You're the one person that can do it." You are... (laughs) You're not a small organization, Movember. You're one of the biggest... You are the biggest men's health organization on the planet. Like if not you, then who is it gonna be? And you don't see it from women's organizations, like f- a- and more power to them. They're constantly pushing the boundaries. They're constantly asking for more. They're constantly making more and more things women's health issues as they r- as they should. They don't toe the line in the same way, and they're not browbeaten, and they're not afraid, and that's, that's admirable. And I would just, I would just remind them of your obligation to men. Now you are obligated to help men. That is your first, second, or third priority. And that is really it. Like, I'm sorry if that's uncomfortable. I'm sorry if saying that in a meeting is gonna get you into trouble. I'm sorry if, you know, it's hard. I'm sorry if you lose money. But unfortunately, your job is to save men's lives. And I'm sorry, but that is unpopular. The things that are causing male suicide are often unpopular to talk about. And if you can't talk about them, then this isn't for you. Like give me-

   4. CWChris Williamson21:33

      What are the... What are the unpopular things causing male suicide?

   5. G(George (TheTinMen)21:38

      Well, Martin Seeger has attributed 20% of male suicides in the UK to family breakdown and child custody battles, so a child being lost in a family court and a relationship breakdown. That's 20% of suicides. And that's what I mean. That is a men's health issue, in my opinion. Of course, it is. And so if we could fix family courts, and if we could help support men after divorces, we could potentially reduce suicide, male suicide, by up to 20% like that. Again, domestic violence. I said it has a massive detrimental impact on, uh, men's health. 11% of suicides... Sorry, 11% of men being abused will consider suicide, and like I said, 750,000 men being abused in the UK every single year. What's 11% of that? You do the maths. In America, it's 50 million men in their lifetime being abused, 11% of that are potentially at risk to suicide. And these are the men that are just being betrayed, left behind because powerful political men's health ad- advocates are just too afraid to say the simple truth that domestic violence is not gendered, there are a significant amount of male victims of abuse, and that abuse has a massive detrimental impact on their mental health, does lead to suicide, and they are not being helped. Like I'm really struggling to make sense of it myself.

   6. CWChris Williamson22:52

      Well, you

5. 22:53 – 27:13

   When George Met With the Head of Movember

   1. CWChris Williamson22:53

      had a... You, you got to have a chat with Zach, uh, and maybe some more people, I don't know. What, what did you learn when you had a, a chat with Movember? And the reason I ask is I must have done between 30 and 50 episodes on this podcast talking about mental health relating to men in one form or another, whether it's loneliness, sexual dynamics, mating market, socioeconomic status, education, employment, training-

   2. G(George (TheTinMen)23:20

      Mm.

   3. CWChris Williamson23:21

      ... uh, i- incel going deep into the world's like leading researchers on the incel movement, all sorts of stuff, everything, everything from top to bottom, left to right. And, um, I have asked myself the question, "Why am I not a massive, like, card-carrying Movember guy?" Like I should be. I should be the, I should be the poster boy for e- always talking about... I love the work that they're doing. They're doing this, they're doing that, they're doing the other. You know, I should be like balls deep-

   4. G(George (TheTinMen)23:47

      Mm.

   5. CWChris Williamson23:47

      ... behind them, uh (laughs) li- literally, uh, saying, saying that I love the work that they do. And for some reason, I'm not. So I'm interested in what you learned when you got to speak to the people running Movember and what, what assumptions maybe were, uh, certified and, and what questions were unanswered and answered and so on.

   6. G(George (TheTinMen)24:05

      If you're gonna hand over... I think they handed over maybe three million Australian dollars to violence against women. I'm like well then presumably you're gonna give at least that to violence against men. And as far as I can tell, they're not. There just doesn't seem to be any plans to open any shelters for men or do any programs for men or to help violent women be less violent. I, I just want to know what are you doing. They're just basically making things either men's health or not men's health because one is politically convenient and one isn't.

   7. CWChris Williamson24:30

      And that, the, the-... stuff that is politically convenient. Seems to be more things around eating habits, physical fitness, diet interventions-

   8. G(George (TheTinMen)24:39

      Prostate cancer.

   9. CWChris Williamson24:40

      ... prostate cancer.

   10. G(George (TheTinMen)24:40

       Which are important, which are important, but men's health isn't just in here, men's health is out there and, like, they're just holding onto an antiquated model of men's health.

   11. CWChris Williamson24:50

       Well, I don't know. Y- you say that they've got lots of money flowing in, maybe they don't have enough money to be able to afford to raise shelters or give your mate Jodie some cash so that he can man his one-person thousand call phone line.

   12. G(George (TheTinMen)25:02

       Well, no. (laughs) I mean, certainly lots of money flowing in, but a lot less flowing out, it seems. Like, uh, UK Charity Commission is basically a space where you can actually look at the accounts of all the charities, which is excellent. And it's quite clear, you can look at Movember's accounts and you can see they have at least 35 million pounds in cash, perhaps up to 50 million pounds. It's difficult because 50 million assets, 35 million in cash at least, and that's not right. They're not, that's not their money, first of all. That's money they were given to help men in the ways I've described, and it's just sat in a bank account. Like 35 million pounds, or more, sat in a bank account not being spent, accumulating interest, it seems, for their own benefit. That is not right. Especially, like I said, I know people that are desperate for just a tiny, tiny percentage. I'm here running, like, crowdfunders, like rattling a tin can for money to help my friends, to help support male victims of abuse. Movember are sat back on a big mountain of cash. Milli- I cannot explain how much I could do with just 0.1% of that amount of cash. I could do huge things. And yeah, they say it in their own, their own, in their own accounts they say it's, it, they are, "At risk of reputational damage if people find out how much cash they are sat on." And it is a lot, it's 35 million pounds. Like-

   13. CWChris Williamson26:22

       Why do you think that would be the case? Because it's not like people can be drawing massive salaries or else everyone will be up in arms, so I don't know where that money goes.

   14. G(George (TheTinMen)26:30

       I have no idea. All I know is they have a lot of cash. I know that their trustees, there are seven trustees of Movember, Movember Europe, which is basically the UK arm of Movember, and not one of those trustees is based in the UK. Not one of those trustees is even living in Europe, they're all based in North America and Australia. So I guess the difficult questions at Movember are going to be asked. What I'm now asking, and I will continue to ask, is why are you sitting on so much cash when the men's health, uh, industry is struggling so much? And why are none of your trustees based in this country? Why are none... How could a trustee who's not even living in this country claim to know how best to spend men and money for British men? Uh, that's a good question.

6. 27:13 – 36:03

   Movember’s Anti-Manosphere Campaign

   1. G(George (TheTinMen)27:13

   2. CWChris Williamson27:13

      You used a term earlier on which I'm seeing, uh, increasingly thrown around, which is healthy masculinity. Healthy masculinity being what I think seems to be the answer to toxic masculinity, or at least a, a, an attempted sort of, uh, retconning of, of what that is. I've heard that there is potentially some footage from guests who've been on this podcast being featured in an upcoming anti-manosphere campaign-

   3. G(George (TheTinMen)27:40

      Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson27:41

      ... by Movember. Do you think this is where they should be focusing their attention?

   5. G(George (TheTinMen)27:44

      No, no. I mean, Movember seem to be declaring war on the manosphere. I don't know what the manosphere is. I'm, I'm sure I'm seen as part of it. I'm sure you're seen as some sort of president of the manosphere. (laughs) And, like, the frustrating thing is, like, I hate the manosphere, I hate the red pill. Like, I'm more than happy to point and make fun of people like Andrew Tate, and I will bang that drum forever, but I don't think it needs to be talked about in the same, in the way that they want to talk about it. I don't think it needs to be a war against the manosphere. Like, I feel the manosphere is just burning, I feel like it's gone in many ways. Like, who, what is Andrew Tate doing these days? He just seems to have descended into madness. Like, the people that were once sort of, um, s- sort of, uh, symbolic of the manosphere, like, where are they? It's gone, it's over. Let's move on. Let's actually, you know, actually help men. Let's spend our money setting a better example for boys, so they don't have to go to these sort of nefarious figures. I feel like just fighting the manosphere, you're just fighting ghosts. You're just... What are you fighting? Like, what the...

   6. CWChris Williamson28:40

      Sh- shadowboxing, shadowboxing an imaginary opponent, yeah.

   7. G(George (TheTinMen)28:43

      Yeah, I always think of it like an angry gorilla fighting mist, is how I describe it.

   8. CWChris Williamson28:47

      Does Movember want to challenge what it is to be a man?

   9. G(George (TheTinMen)28:51

      Yeah. This is what I mean. There are certain things, like, Movember are very keen to encourage all of us to challenge stereotypes of what, about what it is to be a man, which I am on board with, but they don't seem to want to challenge themselves, their own gender stereotypes, i.e. that men are violent and women are victims. Like, violence against women, in my opinion, that is a stereotype in its own right, so that ought to be challenged. Like, this gender narrative of domestic violence is a stereotype, that needs to be challenged too. So, it's not good enough to make s- to demand that we challenge our stereotypes if you're not going to challenge your own. So yes, I just think it's absurd the amount of time they seem to be spending fighting the manosphere. I don't know who's even part of it, I don't know what it is, and, like, there, there's better things to be spending your money on.

   10. CWChris Williamson29:34

       It stinks to me as, you know, somebody who's at the coalface of internet culture, and I think that you're right as well, I think that whatever the manosphere wa- was or is, uh, is largely on a decline. I mean, you're selling your stock like fuck. These NFTs, you're just pumping them. You can't, can't wait to get rid of them because they're declining by the day.

   11. G(George (TheTinMen)29:52

       Mm.

   12. CWChris Williamson29:52

       I don't think that whatever it was... But it, it stinks massively of, um, people in the mainstream media finally hearing a term that is catchy and does catch on, uh, and going, "This is a big deal." And you go, "No, it was a big deal in 2021, it was a big deal."

   13. G(George (TheTinMen)30:11

       Yeah. (laughs)

   14. CWChris Williamson30:11

       But the internet moves quickly-

   15. G(George (TheTinMen)30:12

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson30:12

       ... but there's, you know, the conceptual inertia of these big fuck-off lumbering behemoths that take forever to actually catch up to anything. And this isn't me saying that that's how it is about Movember, but I'm starting to see the manosphere be talked about more online. Toxic masculinity sort of contin-... I mean, that's still... I'd definitely put a little bit of cash into that stock if I could. That's certainly something that seems to be continuing to, uh, to drive, uh, drive the stock price up. But, like, it just doesn't seem...... to me to be on the money about exactly where the conversation around men is happening online. And then when you say, you know, challenging stereotypes, I, I would be absolutely fascinated to hear what the world sort of thinks of a stereotype like Chris Bumstead. So Chris is just retired as six-time Mr. Olympia Classic Physique champion. He's cried on stage-

   17. G(George (TheTinMen)31:07

       Mm.

   18. CWChris Williamson31:07

       ... during his acceptance speech, I think, ff- at least 50% of the time, if not four out of six of the times. Fully broke down crying when he did his leaving speech. Regularly tells stories about how he goes to therapy, regularly tells stories about how he breaks down in his girlfriend's arms before he does this thing.

   19. G(George (TheTinMen)31:24

       Mm.

   20. CWChris Williamson31:24

       Not one person is calling him, uh, soft or weak or vulnerable or, y- like a, a, a-

   21. G(George (TheTinMen)31:30

       Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson31:30

       ... puss boy. Uh, and on the flip side, nobody would also call him toxically masculine. But my, my concern is that when you take this sort of rough-hewn, anybody on the internet talking about stuff-

   23. G(George (TheTinMen)31:41

       Mm.

   24. CWChris Williamson31:41

       ... that is pro-men, uh, in a manner that doesn't concord with our cliches of what people on the internet think masculinity is, which is Chris Bumstead, big, big hulking guy, must be toxically masculine. He needs to... like, it, there's no place for him to fit. And for me, I would love, like... make him minister for men. He's just retired from bodybuilding. I'd love h- to have Chris Bumstead as minister for men.

   25. G(George (TheTinMen)32:03

       Yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson32:03

       Ev- y- you've got 25 million men, mostly, that follow him on, uh, Instagram, because by the way, if you get big muscles, it's not girls that care, it's guys that care. And-

   27. G(George (TheTinMen)32:13

       (laughs)

   28. CWChris Williamson32:14

       ... he would make j- a phenomenal role model. He encourages me to be a braver, more open, more vulnerable, emotionally attuned man. That's-

   29. G(George (TheTinMen)32:24

       Mm.

   30. CWChris Williamson32:24

       ... wha- and that... But the problem with it is, it doesn't fit into an easy narrative, right? Because he doesn't look the way that he presents. He presents in the way of, like, a sort of worse guy that's never actually, uh, d- done any... like, a super sort of, uh, agreeable dude, but has made all of the achievements of somebody that's hyper-masculine. And it's not easy enough for people to grasp, I don't think. Um, but yeah, I just... I don't know, the challenging-
7. 36:03 – 43:50

   How Men Find Meaning

   1. CWChris Williamson36:03

      Russ Cook, that guy that ran the length of Africa?

   2. G(George (TheTinMen)36:06

      No, but that sounds fascinating.

   3. CWChris Williamson36:08

      He's, uh, hardestgeezer on Instagram, and I think he ran... it was a, um, a- either in e- a full year or maybe even over a year, and he ran basically a marathon every day, uh, and he's the first person in history to have gone from basically Cape Town to, uh, whatever the fuck's at the top. Tunisia, Turkey, some shit?

   4. G(George (TheTinMen)36:27

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson36:27

      Whatever's the very, very top. And, uh, he... it took him a year to do that. There's videos (laughs) there's some f- really, really raw videos of him. One day he must have drank from, uh, a classically unclean drinking source, and he had, uh, vomiting and diarrhea while he's running, and he's just not stopping, and he just keeps on going. I can absolutely see...... a headline that says, "This is the denial of emotions. This is feeding into the sort of toxic men must always be strong narrative." And it's like, no, men want to be strong.

   6. G(George (TheTinMen)37:03

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson37:03

      They don't n- they don't want to feel the compulsion to need to be strong all the time, but they want to be strong. And the difference between telling men, "It's okay to talk about your emotions. It's okay to not be strong and competent all the time, and you can't be those things because if you are being those things, you're not choosing to be them," is denying from men one of the greatest sources of meaning that they have in their life.

   8. G(George (TheTinMen)37:25

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson37:25

      One of the greatest sources of meaning is doing a thing that's difficult and getting fucking better at it. It's exactly why I... Like, men would rather produce f- 850 episodes of a podcast than go to therapy-

   10. G(George (TheTinMen)37:36

       (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson37:36

       ... but then actually go to therapy during the last year of the podcast. So, it- it- it always re- it always takes me back to Elon Musk when he first bought Twitter. Um, he got rid of all the middle management and 90% of the coding team, and there's this famous selfie of him and, like, 20 Asian dudes behind him. And it's him basically saying, "I'm gonna run this entire company with these people. If you want to work harder than you ever have in your entire life on the most difficult and important problems in coding, come work for me." And he got castigated 'cause it was, "This is going back to Industrial Revolution era, pushing people to work beyond their limit. Are we not, are we not got past this? What about Mental Health Mondays and what about Holistic Tuesdays and what about, you know, Smoothie Wednesdays and stuff like that? This is pushing people to go too hard." And it's like, you... May be true, and may be even true on average for most people, but there is a huge subset of people for whom you put that kind of a challenge in front of them, or you tell them to run 1,600 kilometers for homeless people, or you tell them to run the entire length of Africa, and they go, "Yes." Like, do you think that Russ Cook ran daily for th- over a year because of toxic masculinity, or do you think he did it because it gave him an innate feeling of meaning and contribution and, and conquer and mastery? The, uh, d- denying that is literally denying him, uh, denying his nature. And y- we all know how dangerous that can be in the modern world of the LGBTQIA+ community. So, you know, his- s- him living out his truth was him running every single day because that's where he took his meaning from.

   12. G(George (TheTinMen)39:09

       Yeah. I mean, I, I have a friend called Sam who walked the length of New Zealand to raise money for boys who were sex- he's a survivor of sexual abuse himself, and he wants to raise money for, uh, s- s- male survivors of abuse, and he walked across the whole of New Zealand. It took him, I think, maybe 70 days. That's n- there's n- that is, could not be less toxic. That is so admirable. And, like, I just, like, this idea of it seems that men like to value achievement. They like to do something. They like to be productive. A lot of women... And I, I've written a lot about this, and a lot of women have contacted me and been like, "I, I want this too." Like, "I, I don't like this therapeutic model of, um, this psychological model of therapy." Like, "I wanna do these things too. I wanna make the, the steam engine. I wanna sort of re- (laughs) reenact the Holy Roman Empire." But we seem to want to vilify these things where men want to do and achieve great things, like in the way that Elon said, like... I mean, put him in some manosphere as well. Same for Goggins, perhaps to a greater degree. And sometimes these people can be enforcing, like, an unhealthy archetype of masculinity, but then sometimes they can just be lifting men up. Like, I've s- I've seen the videos from within Movember, and they have been leaked to me, I'm afraid. And I remember the first clip I saw was Andrew Tate. And I do not like Andrew Tate, let me be clear. But the bit, the bit he said, and it's not perfectly quoted, but he said something like, "You don't achieve anything by talking about it, you achieve it through action." And I was just li- I was, like, waiting for the offensive bit, and that was it.

   13. CWChris Williamson40:30

       You've picked, you've picked-

   14. G(George (TheTinMen)40:30

       And I was just like, "Shit."

   15. CWChris Williamson40:31

       ... the most-

   16. G(George (TheTinMen)40:31

       He said something-

   17. CWChris Williamson40:31

       ... the most acceptable Andrew Tate quote.

   18. G(George (TheTinMen)40:34

       That list some horrible things he said, and I'm like, "You've picked something that's actually good?" (laughs) And I was just like, I can't believe that's seen as controversial, and what he's saying is really important and true for a lot of people. Like p- men want action. Men want change. Men want solutions. It goes back to sort of, um, the classic trope of like, uh, women want to be heard and men want their p- uh, solution, their problem solved. Like, a lot of the time when a woman comes to you with a problem, they don't want a solution, they just wanna be heard. But sometimes men just want a solution. They don't wanna be heard, they want an answer. And that's when you get into sort of the men are from Mars, women are from Venus thing where a man's giving a solution where his wife just wants to be heard, and his wife's not giving a solution 'cause she's just talking or, or listening. And I don't know, I guess at the bottom of it, there's a fundamental difference in, generally speaking, how men and women present distress and how men and women want to be helped. And sometimes men more often want a solution or they want to achieve something-

   19. CWChris Williamson41:28

       Mm-hmm.

   20. G(George (TheTinMen)41:28

       ... and fulfill purpose.

   21. CWChris Williamson41:29

       But, you know, this is a, uh, a RichardReedism to say that a lot of the time men are told that their biggest problem is that they're just too masculine. That if they were a little bit more like women, if they talked about-

   22. G(George (TheTinMen)41:40

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson41:40

       ... their problems, if they were less concerned with conquer and mastery and progress, that they would be fine. And you go, "Well, if I was to deny women what they want, what their predisposition on average is, that would be s- that would be, like, catastr- like, that is probably not far off patriarchy." Right? Like, you, you denying the other sex's right to live out their innate, uh, inbuilt desires and, like, what it is they want to do. Especially if it's not hurt- or y- b- like, running 1,600 kilometers is toxic masculinity. Like, who's that hurting? Shy of the tarmac. Who's that hurting? Who's David Goggins, uh, like, yes, okay. Is David perha- d- c- would David benefit from, like, a century or so of a little bit of talk therapy-

   24. G(George (TheTinMen)42:28

       (laughs)

   25. CWChris Williamson42:28

       ... uh, to get in touch with his emotions? Yeah, maybe. But he lives a, uh, a very important niche, I think, which is someone who doesn't ever stop. Okay, what is it like if you don't have any quit? Any man that looks at G- (laughs) Goggins and goes, "I can be that in its entirety." Uh, that's not how men... y- uh, how infantilizing to think that that's the way that men look at that person as opposed to go-... "Hey, when I'm going through a tough time, I'm gonna call on my inner Goggins. And when I'm going through an emotional time, I'm gonna call on my inner Cbum." I'm not gonna call on my inner Cbum and, like, get in touch with my emotions if I'm going through a really, really rough workout or something like that. Like, it's all... I'm gonna use the different tools that I have for the job.

   26. G(George (TheTinMen)43:09

       Mm.

   27. CWChris Williamson43:09

       And, uh, yeah. There was... What was that Peterson quote about something about being cruel? You gotta learn to be cruel, or you have to... You- you- you're weak if you're not able to be cruel or something?

   28. G(George (TheTinMen)43:17

       Yeah. That's- that's on the hit list as well, I'm afraid. Yeah, that's one of the- the blacklisted, often. It was- it's completely out- out of context, that's often quoted. But when you're talking about Goggins, et cetera, it reminds me of, like, some- the words of my mum. And she'd always say, "Everything in moderation." And like, if no one's sat there just watching Goggins like their eyes are this for, like, several hours a day, and if you did, I'm sure that would be unhealthy. You're watching a bit of Goggins, you're watching a bit of Jordan Peterson, you're watching a bit of Chris Williamson, maybe watching a bit of me. Like, you're having everything in moderation. Like, nothing on its own is good, and I wouldn't suggest just watching Goggins.

8. 43:50 – 51:57

   Who Are the Proposed Role Models for Men?

   1. G(George (TheTinMen)43:50

   2. CWChris Williamson43:50

      Who do, um... Who do the powers that be in men's advocacy put forward as positive role models?

   3. G(George (TheTinMen)43:58

      I don't- I don't... Honestly, I do not know. I do not... Like, this is a question we've- (laughs) we had maybe a year ago. Who are- who are the positive, masculine role models for men? And I don't know. We didn't have an answer there. I have answers, but I'm not sure who they're supposed to be. Like, I think they- I think these- at least this certain type of advocacy really struggles to present a male role model, a healthy male role model, especially one that is masculine, and I'm still waiting for them to present one. Like, have- have you seen one? Like, who are- who are we supposed to look up to, if not all these manosphere men?

   4. CWChris Williamson44:31

      Well, it's a... The vacuum of any role models has pre- left the gap that has been precisely filled by people that-

   5. G(George (TheTinMen)44:40

      Mm.

   6. CWChris Williamson44:40

      ... those- those supposedly providing us with role models say aren't role models. Right?

   7. G(George (TheTinMen)44:44

      Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson44:44

      Like, it's- it... The- the issues that you have are laid at the feet of the vacuum.

   9. G(George (TheTinMen)44:49

      Mm.

   10. CWChris Williamson44:50

       Um, you know, I think very much the rise of the manosphere and whatever version that is, like the degen internet version of the manosphere, the proper one. Uh, I think that that largely was laid at the feet of Jordan abandoning his conversation about boys and men.

   11. G(George (TheTinMen)45:02

       Mm.

   12. CWChris Williamson45:03

       You know, he moved on to other things. He moved on to talking about political issues and- and religion and- and faith and stuff like that. And he'd opened up a market. There evidently was a market. He'd inspired a lot of people to have these sorts of conversations, and it showed proof of concept that you can be very popular by doing it. But he didn't continue servicing the market.

   13. G(George (TheTinMen)45:23

       Yeah.

   14. CWChris Williamson45:23

       So, there was demand and no supply, which sucked in a lot of other people.

   15. G(George (TheTinMen)45:27

       Well, I think- I think Jordan probably gave up on that because he got so much backlash. Like, he clearly cares a lot about men and boys, and he- he must have just been sick about being vilified for it. The same for, like, Warren Farrell. Like, he could have been a really great role model and champion for men and boys. No one really knows who he is, but he's a- a wonderful man, very thoughtful and sensitive, a lot like Jordan. And he was just, I guess, castigated. And I don't know. Like, I- I can understand why Jordan would give up. I often feel like giving up too. And, um, you're right that there is a massive lack of positive male role models, especially when you think about how many boys haven't got fathers at home, and how few men there are in classrooms, and how bad the role models are on TV, especially like sitcoms. And people like Andrew Tate capitalized upon that. He just stepped into that vacuum 'cause he does speak positively about masculinity, whether you like it or not. He does speak positively about men and boys, and they just naturally gravitated towards it. Like, I- I always like to think that-

   16. CWChris Williamson46:24

       Who could have predicted?

   17. G(George (TheTinMen)46:26

       ... well, his... I always like to think that his- his meteoric success, like, I think he was the fastest-growing influencer in history, that massive success is exactly proportionate to our failure. That's how badly we've done. That's how big our failure has been. So, if we- we need to stop pointing the finger at boys, calling them toxic, misogynistic, or oppressive, and start pointing the finger at ourselves for not helping them, not talking to them, only ever talking about them, never talking to them. That's the real big problem. Like, we always talk about boys, we always talk about men. We never talk to them. Like, I actually spent last Friday on the streets of London just interviewing random men. And I'll tell you what, every single man I spoke to was fucked in his own unique, horrible way. Like, losing his children, addicted to alcohol, his parents are dying. Like, he's... Like, every single man was going through something horrific. And yet the archetype of men as privileged just didn't- does not line up with my lived experiences. And I get DMs every day from these men, like, really, really struggling, often with the issues that we talked about earlier. And they're not being helped, and they're not even being seen, and they're actually being mocked a lot of the time. And those are the men that gravitate towards people like Andrew Tate because we are not doing a good enough job, in my opinion. And so like I said, like, instead of us fighting the- the manosphere, like this ghost, let's start actually questioning, "Are we doing a good enough job? Can we do better? And can we bring these men and boys back?" 'Cause I think we can. I think you already have. And I would- I mean, I would give you... I mean, you don't need any more money, but I would give you a lot more support. Like, I would be like... I'll be ca- I'll be calling you every single day if (laughs) I was Out Movember, like, "Chris, can I... Can... What is the secret sauce?" Like, you've got the secret sauce.

   18. CWChris Williamson48:07

       Well, for instance, one of the things that I rely on you for is, uh, stats. You know, I'm not balls deep in the data. I don't know what the cutting-edge, uh, most recent CDC intimate partner violence stuff is saying, so I have to pick it up from your Instagram or DM you. And, you know, like, I- I feel like if you had a... if you really wanted to make an impact, you would have a big email chain or some big folder, and Scott Galloway would have access, and I would have access, and you would have access, and it would... Everybody would be working collaboratively together. Um, and that's not to centralize me in this. I'm hardly like the vanguard of like fixing this problem. My point being that when I look at important and successful social change campaigns, they work with the people who are already on their side, but the incentives align to push people away if-... human tribalism is so strong, i- if you make someone feel like an other, they will position-

   19. G(George (TheTinMen)49:05

       Hmm.

   20. CWChris Williamson49:05

       ... themselves in opposition to you. And, uh, I think you're, I think you're seeing that-

   21. G(George (TheTinMen)49:09

       I-

   22. CWChris Williamson49:09

       ... an awful, an awful lot.

   23. G(George (TheTinMen)49:11

       I relate so much to that. I feel othered so often. I feel let down, left behind, excluded, like shut out of the party so, (laughs) so often. And it's so difficult not... I have to take breaks, not because I struggle, like I'm not like running out of energy, but I genuinely feel like alienated and I'm like, "I don't wanna become resentful, I don't wanna become bitter, I need to step away for like two weeks." And I'll c- I'm on a break right now, for example.

   24. CWChris Williamson49:31

       Hmm. But tell me this, what does good advocacy for men look like and what does bad advocacy look like?

   25. G(George (TheTinMen)49:39

       Well, I mean, my, my particular brand of advocacy, I, I try not to get too caught up in subjective conversations about masculinity and healthy masculinity and toxic masculinity. I just think masculinity is, it, it just is. It's neither good nor bad, it just is. My, m- what I try to do, my own little part of the pie is just, as you said, presenting data in the most reliable way possible so we can have a conversation about men and women in a, in a way, in a foun- on a foundation of objective truth. And unfortunately that truth is often unpopular and difficult to read. And it annoys me when people say I'm wrong about certain things. Like Richard Reeves, for example, said, um, on your podcast, uh, that my, the evidence I present on gender parity or domestic violence is, is wrong, completely wrong. And I'm like, "It's not though. If you think I'm wrong, then you are also accusing the CDC of being wrong 'cause that's all I'm showing you." I'm literally holding a mirror up. And if you don't like what's reflected back, that's just not my problem. That's just called science. So, I would encourage those people who think I'm misleading people, such as Richard seems to, I would... Why don't you send an email to the CDC and accuse them of the same thing? And not just me, but like the da- the data for that particular claim is so overwhelming we can no longer ignore it. I often like to quote Murray Straus because Murray Straus, essentially the godfather of family violence research, quite literally set up the field itself, founded it. Uh, he designed the, the instruments we still use today. And he's presented hundreds of papers over maybe three or four decades that show gender parity in partner violence between men and women in terms of risk factors and victimization. And I'm like, "You can't just ignore him. Like he is the most influential family violence researcher who's ever lived and he's presented hundreds of papers." And I'm like, "That is uncomfortable. I'm sorry but what more do you want me to show you? Like 400 papers? 500 papers?" The biggest domestic violence database in the world which has 1,700 papers finds the same. The consensus finds it's not gendered. It's bi- mostly bilateral and then actually if you look at non-bilateral violence, it's usually women doing it, but it's certainly not gendered. And I'm so sick of being accused of misleading people when I'm simply just showing you the data. That's all I'm doing.

9. 51:57 – 54:18

   What is the Conflict Tactics Scale?

   1. G(George (TheTinMen)51:57

   2. CWChris Williamson51:57

      What's the conflict tactics scale?

   3. G(George (TheTinMen)52:00

      Conflict... What is it? W- we talked earlier about how asking different questions in different ways can give you different results. So like you said like one in three victims of abuse, uh, in UK is male but one in two in America is male and one in four in Australia is male. Those are all significant numbers but you get different results depending on what you ask. So the CTS, the Conflict Tactics Scale, which was designed by Murray Straus and that is the most, uh, most widely used tool for studying domestic violence is basically a way of asking people about domestic violence. So back in the old days they would do surveys and they would call people up like "Hi Chris, how many times have, uh, have you had a criminal sort of charge for domestic violence?" Or, "How many times has this happened?" Like framing talk of domestic violence in a criminal language. But a Conflict Tactics Scale doesn't do that because it, that, people find that that use of criminalized language underrepresents the true form of domestic violence. But if you're to do the Conflict Tactics Scale, which is just, um, a series of questions that asks people how do you deal with conflict in your house, uh, and through more benign questions about how do, how do you handle a dispute? How do you handle an argument? What do you do if your wife or husband's disagreeing with you? Then suddenly you're, you find much larger numbers. You take away the whole criminal aspect of it and just frame it in a more sort of benign friendly way, uh, you get gender parity first of all and you find that rates go up by maybe 10 or 15 times. So like I said, it really depends on how you ask the question. "Well, how do you define abuse?" Uh, and like similar a lot, a lot of, um, domestic violence data is based on criminal records for example. Like Canada, they find one in three victims of abuse is man, but they use criminal data and we know men are less likely to file a case of abuse and they're less likely to be helped by police so they're underrepresented there too. So there's a huge margin of error and I'm happy to say that. Um, but even like the lower, the lower estimates, like one in four, one in three, is still a significant amount. But yeah the Conflict Tactics Scale is basically a unique way of asking people about domestic violence in a way that's framed in like a, a more relatable and accessible manner outside of the criminal language previously used that I think it's a fairer measure of domestic violence and partner violence. And that's where the controversy begins because like I said it finds gender parity.

10. 54:18 – 59:11

    Could the UK Get a Minister for Men?

    1. G(George (TheTinMen)54:18

    2. CWChris Williamson54:18

       Talk to me about this issue around a Minister for Men in the UK.

    3. G(George (TheTinMen)54:23

       Min- uh the Minister for Men, what our Minister for Men is a hypothetical position that doesn't exist that a lot of people are advocating for. I, I, I was asking for this in 2019 and people thought that was hilarious, a Minister for Men. But it's becoming increasingly popular. It's been discussed in the mainstream. It was discussed a lot last year. Uh, I think there's a poll and ma- and just le- just under 50% of the British public polled supported a Minister for Men. So it's growing. It's no longer a joke. Now it's becoming more popular. A Minister for Men would be a position just like the Minister for Women that looks into the various issues that I, I discuss. So male victims of abuse, sexual violence...... boys being bullied, male homelessness, male drug addiction, of course male suicide, family courts for example. All these different, different things that are very unpopular. That, but also extremely important, and a minister for men is a position, uh, that would exist but doesn't, that would look into them. Like I mean, I'm, one of the things I'm often saying is that I am often surprised I'm sat in this seat. I do not think I'm qualified to be here. I don't think I should be in this position at all really. Uh, the per- the person sat in this seat should be the minister for men, someone that's more qualified, being paid and supported, like some sort of politician or academic or professor. Not me. But, but unfortunately I seem to be the best you've got. So a minister for men would be doing my job essentially, um, and talking about all the things that no one wants to talk about, and unafraid to do so. And uh, I would love to see that happen. I think it will happen in the next few years. It's growing in popularity and I think it will... And obviously ministers for men and boys as well, let's be clear on that. There's a lot of issues around boys that need to be spoken about, like education. And uh, yeah, just some sort of position-

    4. CWChris Williamson56:08

       Yeah. I, I worry that, uh, given sort of what happens every time that this conversation breaks above the surface in that way, so to speak, uh, it's just another person that annoys you, or it's another group that annoys you. So I fear that whoever becomes minister for men will do whatever it is, sacrifice goat blood over the pentagram of the beak nose mask people and, you know, whatev- whatever they get indoctrinated into that you don't like. And um, I think you have such a gold standard and you're very unwavering, you know, not needing to sort of kiss the ring of feminism every time you talk about the problems of boys and men, uh, not wanting to sugarcoat the communication, uh, because people have been so used to having that happen to them.

    5. G(George (TheTinMen)56:55

       Mm-hmm.

    6. CWChris Williamson56:55

       And um, it's such a... You're like the David Goggins of masculinity. Do you know what I mean? Like you're j- very unwavering in that regard. And um, I wonder if anybody is ever going to be sufficiently pure to meet your, uh, to meet your standards.

    7. G(George (TheTinMen)57:08

       Yeah, I mean I would not want to be a, sort of a symbolic position and someone that's browbeaten and sort of a ver- a number of apologies. I would just want them to have courage. And like that's what I really want people to have, that courage to say what's unpopular, and just to be driven by the ultimate ambition of stopping men from ending their lives. And that's, that's the dance we're all dancing now. There are so many people talking about male suicide, encouraging men to talk. But so few people talking about the things that men are telling them, like the experiences of abuse, experience of losing children, experience of addiction, uh, you know, family breakdown, ch- f- like family courts. Like no one is talking about them. Like so many men are talking about these things that are causing distress and pushing them towards suicide. And then the same people that are telling men to talk are not talking themselves about what men are telling them.

    8. CWChris Williamson57:56

       Well it's, no, it's talk-

    9. G(George (TheTinMen)57:57

       I'm starting talking-

    10. CWChris Williamson57:57

        You need to talk. You need to talk, but not like that.

    11. G(George (TheTinMen)58:00

        Yeah. (laughs) Yeah, yeah.

    12. CWChris Williamson58:01

        Not about those things. Don't bring that up. Tell us-

    13. G(George (TheTinMen)58:04

        Yeah.

    14. CWChris Williamson58:04

        ... tell us that you get sad sometimes and that you wish that you could talk to your friends more about it.

    15. G(George (TheTinMen)58:07

        Well it reminds me of what happened to our friends John Barry and Martin Seager when they tried to set up the men's section of the British Psychological Society. So the BPS is like the sort of the national group of psychologists in the UK. Um, and they have different sections of research for minorities and gay people and women of course. And Martin Seager and John Barry wanted to set up a men's section in the BPS to look into things like male suicide, for example. Like there could not be a bigger priority, in my opinion, for the psychological industry in reducing suicide, especially male suicide. That seems to be an uncontroversial thing, except it wasn't. There was a massive backlash when they tried to set up the, the men's section to the point where the BPS actually had a vote. They actually put it to the members to vote on, "Should we set up a men's section?" And then one third of members voted against it. So one third of BPS members voted against a section being set up for the group most at risk of suicide. And it's like, I just don't understand how that can happen. And that's just a brand of advocacy I am not on board with. And that is just like a red line I won't cross.

11. 59:11 – 1:06:38

    What George Wishes Movember Would Do

    1. G(George (TheTinMen)59:11

    2. CWChris Williamson59:11

       What do you, what do you wish that Movember would do more of? Or if you were to step into Zach's shoes for a little while, the guy that runs ... I'm sure it's not just him, there's like a million people-

    3. G(George (TheTinMen)59:22

       It's not just Zach.

    4. CWChris Williamson59:23

       ... who run Movember. Um, like but if you were to step into all of the people that run Movember's shoes, what would you-

    5. G(George (TheTinMen)59:30

       I would-

    6. CWChris Williamson59:30

       What would you do?

    7. G(George (TheTinMen)59:30

       I would be distributing that money like nobody's business. There are people like d- that desperate for that money, that 35 million pounds, just dishing it out straight away. I would then appoint a, a significant number of trustees who are based in the UK and are aware of British culture and European culture. And I d- the idea that none of their trustees are even here is n- no good. So give the money back, spend the money, uh, change the way it's governed. And then uh, more broadly in terms of the philosophy, I'd be like, "You need to be more courageous. You cannot be browbeaten behind the scenes by women's organizations into dancing to their tune." Like you are here to help men and boys, and that is the first, second, third priority. And anything that gets into that, in front of that, you need to confront with courage, like me. And like, I just, I would just remind them of their priorities. Like it, it, the fact that they, they're talking about VAWG is sort of like the, the canary in the mine to me. And it sounds like this Movember Institute is also, um, gonna be distributing their money on feminist frameworks, which I don't, doesn't make sense that you're here for men. Most men aren't feminists, most women aren't feminists. Like you're not a political organization, you should be like, you should be helping people, doing research and not, and not just playing this silly sort of political nitpicking and semantic wordplay.

    8. CWChris Williamson1:00:52

       How powerful are Movember? How much do they control the narrative?

    9. G(George (TheTinMen)1:00:56

       Really powerful. Yeah, really powerful. Like th- that's like the most powerful men's health and male suicide charity on the planet.... and like they are the ones that should be pushing back, not the ones that are just waving the flag, what, the white flag of surrender. Be like, "No, I'm sorry, but men who are abused, that is a men's health issue and they need to be protected by us." We need to stand up for them. We need to actually do at least as much for male victims of abuse as we are doing for women and not buy into this political narrative of violence against women and gendered violence, which actually erases the very men that they're obligated to help. And like, it's like-

    10. CWChris Williamson1:01:32

        But how much do they, how much are they shaping the narrative really? I don't know, because y- as soon as you kind of, as soon as you tumble into degenerate internet mode, you kind of forget what it's like to be a, a, a person that watches TV and does sort of the normal things. Uh, but I don't know how much the conversation around boys and men is curated or crafted by Movember.

    11. G(George (TheTinMen)1:01:57

        Me neither. I think mo- people don't even realize they are an organization. People just think that's a, it's a meme, and like so many people have been like, "Hang on. (laughs) There's an organization called Movember?" I'm like, (laughs) absolutely, yes, there are. Um, but to answer your question, uh, no, I don't, I don't think they have much resonance. I don't think their messaging really has much impact on men and boys. Like, I, I hate to like boil it down to social media engagement, but if you look at their social media accounts, there's very little going on there. It doesn't seem to be reverberating the same way that your content is, and to a lesser extent my content is, and I feel like they're just talking to the void. And because they've got so much money and because people are afraid of saying what they really think to Movember because they have so much money, they're, they're also getting a, like a disproportionate sense of their own entitlement. They have a disproportionate sense that they are leading the conversation, and they just are not. They're just not. They have the, the money, and people, like I said, like I know people that don't wanna stand up to Movember. I've had loads of people contact me from within Movember and outside of Movember.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:02:56

        What are they worried about?

    13. G(George (TheTinMen)1:02:57

        Both 'cause they-

    14. CWChris Williamson1:02:58

        Like, what is it?

    15. G(George (TheTinMen)1:02:58

        'Cause they have the money. (laughs) They have all the money. Like, they have, like I cannot describe to you how little money there is in these different areas. I, I, I've been doing this for five years. I've not re- I mean, I've received some money just from kind donors, but very little. I'm ha- I've hemorrhaged money. Absolutely. How can... You would not believe how much money I've lost running this account, and that's fine. That's fine. That is a sacrifice I made, I knowingly made, and I will continue to make for as long as possible, but there are people far, far worse than me, people doing absolutely seminal work into male suicide especially, that are literally got nothing, and the money they do have is money that I helped raise through my community, and it's not my job.

    16. CWChris Williamson1:03:38

        (laughs)

    17. G(George (TheTinMen)1:03:38

        So, those people do not wanna stand up to Movember because Movember have the money. I have people who like, just not say what they think or not do research they want to do 'cause they're afraid, and that is just not good science. So, I would say just having the money in one place rather than distributing it more broadly is just a recipe for disaster.

    18. CWChris Williamson1:03:58

        Would you sit down with someone from Movember, Zach or somebody else?

    19. G(George (TheTinMen)1:04:02

        Yeah. Yeah.

    20. CWChris Williamson1:04:02

        M- maybe we could do it, maybe we could do it on the show if, uh, if someone's interested-

    21. G(George (TheTinMen)1:04:06

        Maybe, yeah.

    22. CWChris Williamson1:04:06

        ... from, out from the camp.

    23. G(George (TheTinMen)1:04:08

        Yeah, yeah. I, I, I am, I'm an open book. I recognize my limitations. Like I, I-

    24. CWChris Williamson1:04:14

        Where are you most wrong?

    25. G(George (TheTinMen)1:04:17

        I think I have a lot of blind spots in, in the, in the psychology. Like I, I try not to get into d- talking about different psychological models. I have not got a PhD. I have a... (laughs) I'm a Bachelor of Arts from a very middling university. Uh, so if we're gonna talk about clinical psychology, like you win. You win every day of the week. What I do know is communications, that is where my expertise are, tone of voice, communications, how to present these difficult issues in a way that makes them palatable and resonant. I would say you have that skill too. So, I clearly know how to get these messages out there to make them shareable. I've built a whole career. The reason why I can do this for free is because I built a whole career doing this w- in various different scientific fields, 'cause guess what? Academics are not great communicators, and I've made a career out of that. And now I've turned my skillset to this area of advocacy where it's desperately needed. So, I have a proven track record of making academia palatable and interesting and dynamic.

    26. CWChris Williamson1:05:13

        Sexy.

    27. G(George (TheTinMen)1:05:14

        Sexy. As sexy as p- as it, as it can be, and I, I am happy, I'm happy to lift up other academics, just want

    28. NANarrator1:05:18

        I wonder if-

    29. G(George (TheTinMen)1:05:20

        ... to let them know.

    30. CWChris Williamson1:05:20

        Uh, I wonder if Richard, you, and someone from Movember, uh, I wonder if we could get that as a roundtable 'Cause I'd love to have that conversation. And it's easy, again, you know, even in this, I can feel the temptation to sort of tumble toward some kind of them and us, the powers that be that have got the money and the young upstarts that did it themselves-
12. 1:06:38 – 1:13:31

    How Bullying Impacts Boys

    1. CWChris Williamson1:06:38

       that, bullying, like I mean, let's, let's just linger on the bullying thing for a while, 'cause I know it's something that you've been working on a good bit.

    2. G(George (TheTinMen)1:06:44

       Well, bullying is a, a really important issue to me. Like both you and I have experienced the bullying, and it will, it just destroys your life. Totally destroys your life at the earliest possible age, and it's a really good vessel through which to look at toxic masculinity or this problematizing of men in two different ways. Um, one way is to see bullying, for example, um-Well, let's look at things like violent fantasies, for example. Violent fantasies, in my opinion, are massively correlated with experiences of bullying. There is a huge amount of research that finds that boys who are bullied, especially the most bullied boys, almost all of them, 97% of them will go on to have violent fantasies, uh, later in life. So now you have a man who's having a violent fantasy, some people will see that man as toxic. A vi- a man having a violent fantasy is seen as toxic, n- needing of correction or needing of some sort of healthy masculinity workshop. I don't see that. I see a bullied boy that's grown up, and a bullied boy develops violent fantasies as a means of coping with violence to come. Now that's literally what a violent fantasy is. That's, it's a coping mechanism because that boy is basically fantasizing about violence so he can deal with more violence. So suddenly that violent man is no longer sort of a, a, a toxic perpetrator, but he's just a bullied boy that's grown up and he is deserving of sympathy. And I just think, in that case, men who all have violent fantasies, we need to see them as victims in their own right, deserving of sympathy and support, not condemnation. And yeah, bullying is one of the- one of the root causes of that, right? And if you want to solve so-called toxic masculinity, in this case male, um, violent fantasies, then you need to look at bullying. You need to hold accountable boys who... sorry, schools that allow bullying, which in my opinion is institutionalized abuse of children. And unless you're going to talk about schools and what you're doing for bullying, you're going to- you need to support boys who are being bullied, and you need to look at the, the, the long-term impacts, especially in violent fantasies. Those are the things you need to talk about. Going on about toxic masculinity, you're sort of... it's, it's too late. It's too late.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:08:44

       Yeah.

    4. G(George (TheTinMen)1:08:44

       You need to get to the problem a lot sooner than that.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:08:46

       But it's nowhere near as sexy though, right? Because it's much easier to say, "This man with his overly aggressive approach to life is..."

    6. G(George (TheTinMen)1:08:55

       Mm-hmm.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:08:55

       Th- th- they are the problem. There's something in them. Or if it's not in them, it's in-

    8. G(George (TheTinMen)1:09:00

       Mm-hmm.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:09:00

       ... the expectations around them, because at no point does that lay at the feet of the person, somebody else-

    10. G(George (TheTinMen)1:09:07

        Mm-hmm.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:09:07

        ... who is to blame. Something that's not systemic, that's like sexy, but something which, something which can be fixed, which is if only he was made to feel like he needed to be less masculine, everything would be fine. Because you can't go back and, and un-bully him.

    12. G(George (TheTinMen)1:09:24

        Yeah.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:09:24

        You can't go back to school and un-bully you or un-bully me.

    14. G(George (TheTinMen)1:09:26

        Mm-hmm.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:09:26

        That's not gonna happen. But yeah, I've got, um, a couple of different, uh, people that I've had on the show with evidence-based interventions for bullying. Doc- Dr. Tracey Vianckow is the head of anti-bullying in Canada, uh, and I've got a couple of other episodes, Tony Valks as well. Um, so I'm gonna do a lot of work on this next show. Hopefully I'm gonna get to go and speak in some schools and stuff like that. Uh, and, and-

    16. G(George (TheTinMen)1:09:50

        Pump money into those. If I... I mean, you asked me what would I do if I had Movember money, I'll just pump money into that. I would just be throwing money at those. I, I did interview Don Durton recently, who is, in my opinion, now Maurice Strauss has passed away, he's the leading expert in the world on domestic violence. I asked him, "What would you do?" So I'll give you his answer. Uh, and he said, "I would spend as much money as possible making a child's life, in the first two years of life especially, as comfortable as possible. I'd be supporting parents, both mothers and fathers, to make sure that child is living-"

    17. CWChris Williamson1:10:20

        Mm-hmm.

    18. G(George (TheTinMen)1:10:20

        ... a comfortable life." And he's like, "That will be expensive, but that will... you'll, you'll get that back long term. Now that is a massive investment that will pay off."

    19. CWChris Williamson1:10:28

        'Cause you've, you've neutered a ton of dysregulated parasympathetic and sympathetic balances.

    20. G(George (TheTinMen)1:10:33

        K- k- closed down half of prisons, perhaps. Um, and then second, he's like, "I would not indulge in this gendered violence model of deprogramming violence men. I would, I would, I would look more at sort of couples therapy where you're treating both sides of the coin." So I would do that. I would do more couples therapy, and I would definitely do a lot more to support parents and children early in life. Like, I mean, I, I talk a lot about spanking children and how damaging that is long term, for example, because it basically teaches children that they can solve, uh, problem, um, behavior, misbehavior through violence. Like if you don't ...... instead of indulging, spending so much money on like VAWG strategies, which no one really knows what that is, we should be doing it on things that we do know what they are, like spanking children, which is an objective thing that we can all talk about. I've never seen spanking children mentioned in a single domestic violence campaign. And yet, at least according to Murray Strauss, it's the most prevalent cause of domestic violence. So I'd be throwing money into that as well, to be honest, and bullying.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:13:30

        Uh, you're

13. 1:13:31 – 1:16:59

    The ‘White Guys for Harris’ Campaign

    1. CWChris Williamson1:13:31

       a man from the left and a pro-male advocate. What were your thoughts on White Guys for Harris as a campaign?

    2. G(George (TheTinMen)1:13:39

       I mean, I don't ... What is (laughs) what is, what is that? That sounds-

    3. CWChris Williamson1:13:42

       You didn't see White Guys for Harris?

    4. G(George (TheTinMen)1:13:44

       I mean, uh, (sighs) no, but I mean, educate me.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:13:47

       Okay, so White Guys for Harris was a 30,000-person Zoom call that happened, uh, where, uh, as you can imagine, I mean, Scott Galloway spoke briefly. Uh, I think, uh, maybe Reid Hoffman did as well. Uh, I imagine that, uh, Mark Cuban was on there. Um, it's a ... It, it was, it was interesting hearing a bunch of, what to me amounted to a pretty obvious struggle session, talking about how we need to recognize our ... and we must be aware of our ... and it is a- it is apparent that we must, etc., etc. Um, and I'm like, hey, if you're having this conversation with potentially the future president of the United States, maybe you should use this opportunity to try and speak up for the group that you're supposed to represent, which is in the title of the Zoom call which you've joined.

    6. G(George (TheTinMen)1:14:40

       Mm-hmm.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:14:40

       But it was very much, "We understand that we come from a position of blah, blah." I just thought, "This is fucking lame. Like this sucks." At no-

Episode duration: 1:19:01