Modern WisdomWhy Can Nobody Think For Themselves Anymore? - Douglas Murray (4K)
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,062 words- 0:00 – 1:55
Have Douglas’s Predictions Come True?
- CWChris Williamson
You've spent a lot of time studying history and writing about-
- DMDouglas Murray
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... current events at the moment. How would you rate your predictive ability given the current state of the world? Were there things that you foresaw coming or things that you've been particularly surprised by?
- DMDouglas Murray
Um, well, nobody gets to predict with 100% accuracy anything, because among other things, all the time, things happen that you could never have seen coming. I could never have seen COVID coming, I just didn't. Um, so whenever anyone sort of boasts about their predictive capabilities, I always think you have to do it with a certain amount of humility, because, I mean, s- things happen all the time you couldn't see. You can only see round the bend of the road you're coming to. You can't see round the corner. Um, yeah, I mean, some things I've written about for years, particularly in my book, The Strange Death of Europe", that came out in 2017, which I think are sadly, uh, coming to fruition. I say sadly because th- it... People think that if you've predicted something and got it right, you would feel any pleasure, and that would only be if the thing you were predicting was something you looked forward to. And what I was predicting was somebody I was, something I was dreading.
- CWChris Williamson
(clears throat)
- DMDouglas Murray
And, um, uh, that was the transformation of our country of birth, uh, and many other countries in the West due to demographic change. And, uh, I mean, every day now pretty much, somebody says to me, "Gosh, I used to think what you were saying in The Strange Death of Europe was a bit out there, and now I realize you were right." But it gives me no pleasure for them to say that 'cause I always sort of think, "Well, if you'd have agreed back then, some things might not have happened." But... So th- No, but, you know, as, um, Mark Steyn said, you know, "Demographics is destiny." So, uh, it's one of the things you can predict with the most ease. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Did you have Victoria's Secret's plan to bring sexy back
- 1:55 – 7:01
Victoria’s Secret Revert Back to Sexy
- CWChris Williamson
on your 2023 bingo card?
- DMDouglas Murray
Why are Victoria's Secret's bringing sexy back?
- CWChris Williamson
After experimenting with 300-pound mannequins-
- DMDouglas Murray
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... plus-sized models, disabled models, trans models, a male model, and a 38-year-old football player, Victoria's Secret have made the controversial decision to switch strategy and start using hot women to model their underwear again.
- DMDouglas Murray
It makes commercial sense-
- CWChris Williamson
(clears throat)
- DMDouglas Murray
... to my mind. Um, yeah, it, it's, it's quite e- I, well, I'm always amazed that advertising executives find it complex, this stuff. I mean, all you need to do is stick sexy guys on stuff and stick sexy girls on stuff, and you can-
- CWChris Williamson
They sell-
- DMDouglas Murray
... sell the merchandise. It sort of pretty much writes itself. Um, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm not particularly surprised that if you stick Lizzo in a bikini it's not as appealing as a bit of sales merchandise. But, you know, live and learn, I suppose.
- CWChris Williamson
Liz and learn.
- DMDouglas Murray
Liz and learn.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, one of my friends owns a, uh, very big clothing company, and for a while, they tried plus-sized models-
- DMDouglas Murray
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, mostly for women. There's not much of a body positivity movement for men.
- DMDouglas Murray
No, there's not, like a beer gut movement.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DMDouglas Murray
Like a... Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
The skinny fat revolution. Uh, and, uh, he said, "We've split-tested this into oblivion. Big girls don't sell clothes."
- DMDouglas Murray
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
So when you see that, when you see a company, you know, Ann Summers are making double plus-sized dildos or whatever, uh, the, the company is actively hurting their top line and bottom line to be able to send the right message.
- DMDouglas Murray
Mm-hmm. Right.
- CWChris Williamson
And that's all well and good up until some shareholder meeting where some th- 70s-year-old guy looks at the far right column of an Excel sheet and goes, "What the fuck's this?"
- DMDouglas Murray
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
And they go, "No, no, you don't understand, it's this really cool-"
- DMDouglas Murray
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
"... new movement. Uh, it, it, we... It's very progressive." And he goes, "I don't care."
- DMDouglas Murray
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
"I want more money"-
- DMDouglas Murray
There's a-
- 7:01 – 12:03
Society’s View of Having Children
- CWChris Williamson
aren't having children, that upfront-
- DMDouglas Murray
One of them, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... children, you just see a very, very large cost on all of the joy and-
- DMDouglas Murray
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... and stuff, but-
- DMDouglas Murray
What's the other... The Economist put it as the- the c- the child tax, the amount of money you have less if you have a child. A weird w- way around-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DMDouglas Murray
... to look at the future of the species, isn't it? If only I died with more money in my bank account. Life of regret. Uh...
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Death of regret, perhaps.
- DMDouglas Murray
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Well, you know, it's kind of the, uh, as well the- the Mexican Fisherman story. Are you familiar with that?
- DMDouglas Murray
No.
- CWChris Williamson
The Parable of the Mexican Fishermen?
- DMDouglas Murray
No, I don't think I am.
- CWChris Williamson
This is cool. You'll like this. So, an American businessman goes on holiday to Mexico. And while he's there, he-
- DMDouglas Murray
Is it a true story?
- CWChris Williamson
It's a parable, Douglas.
- DMDouglas Murray
Okay, right, okay. Got it.
- CWChris Williamson
Fucking hell. He goes on holiday. He gets taken out, uh, fishing by a local Mexican. And he asks the Mexican how he spends his time. The Mexican says, "I fish a little on the morning, I catch enough for my family. We go back, we cook, we laugh around the fire, and I spend time with my children." And the American businessman goes, "That's stupid. Here's a better idea. What you should do is actually spend most of your day fishing, and then with the surplus fish, you could sell them at the market." And the Mexican Fisherman says, "And why would I do that?" He said, "Well, once you've got the additional money, you could start to employ some of your friends and they could come out fishing with you too, and you could catch more fish, which you could sell at the market for more money." He said, "Why would I do that?" He says, "Well, once you've done that, you would be able to incorporate in America and you would maybe be able to start a canning factory so that you could own the entire production process, and you could then sell the company for a lot of money." He said, "And why would I do that?" He said, "Because once you've done that, you'd be able to fish a little on a morning and then go back-"
- DMDouglas Murray
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... "and spend time with your children around the fire."
- DMDouglas Murray
Very good.
- CWChris Williamson
And I often think about that as a much more direct route to- to happiness, you know?
- DMDouglas Murray
Yeah. Um, well, that's- that's the classic thing that you're- the place you, uh, end up is the place you started from, but yes. Um, there- were there are lots of reasons why people aren't having children, um, and a lot of them are simple e- economic things. I mean, all of the Western countries that have terrible replacement birth rate figures are e- because of very easy things to solve, like cost of housing and things like that. It's n- it's not hard to build affordable housing. We just proved to be incapable of doing so. So young people wanting to- wanting to both get on the property ladder and have a- and start a family think they have to do either/or. And they're not entirely wrong, but that's something the governments could have sorted out and none of them do. They're- they're so hopeless at it and they have been for years. T- under consecutive governments. They never build enough housing, so young people don't see a future, don't s- feel hopeless, and then don't have kids, and then everyone wonders why there's a demographic crisis.
- CWChris Williamson
Intergenerational competition theory is something I learned about a couple of weeks ago.
- DMDouglas Murray
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
You familiar with this?
- DMDouglas Murray
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I didn't know about it before, but it makes complete sense. You know, there was always this talk of millennials are the first generation to have done worse than their parents, and it seems if you got-
- DMDouglas Murray
Well, they're not the first. First in a little while.
- 12:03 – 17:24
Why Can’t We Agree on Truth?
- CWChris Williamson
I was talking to mutual friend Eric Weinstein about this.
- DMDouglas Murray
Hm.
- CWChris Williamson
I also spoke to Sam about this. I've spoken to a bunch of people. Why, in your opinion, do you think everybody struggles to agree on the truth now?
- DMDouglas Murray
Oh, that's quite straightforward. We can't agree on what has happened. So, uh, broadly speaking, an event happens now, and some people believe it has happened and other people think it hasn't. Um, I mean, we've been through a number of deranging years since we first spoke, in which for instance, you know, as I said, there's been a global pandemic, which some people believe was something which killed millions and millions of people in their own country and think they were just about saved from dying themselves, and other people think it was a fake, and other people think, uh, we just massively overreacted, and other people think, uh, it was all planned and, um, uh, I mean, nobody agrees what happened. Uh, that's just to take one example. In America, you have obviously the fact that- that nobody agrees who won an election. That's a problem. And so you just have basic things nobody can agree on that just happened. Uh, I always say in America, you know, it'd be nice if we could just agree that one thing that's just happened, happened, but then nobody wants to and says you must be a WF shill if you- if you- if you believe that. So I think it is a problem, and then obviously underneath that is just a problem with the fact that, uh, the treadmill of social media has totally changed the way in which we communicate, the way in which we learn things, absorb things, and we don't know what the consequences of that are. We're so early into it. Um, and it seems to me that among other things, it's allowed people to have their own version of recent events, recent history, uh, past few days. And so when you sit down to talk to somebody, uh, you can fairly swiftly work out whether they're somebody who's open to the idea of things that happened having happened or whether or not they will fight you all the way. And, um, that just makes everything much harder than it used to be. Um, and that isn't to a sort of particularly pine for the era of a mono-narrative-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- DMDouglas Murray
... if that- if that era ever particularly existed, and when you read history, not clear that it did. Um, but it's just mes- massively worse, and news is coming at us at such a pace these days, and it's just like, you know, every day feels like, you know, a month's worth of news in the past. Things just fly by you so fast that you don't even have time to absorb it before it's happened.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DMDouglas Murray
Um, so I think that's part of the reason. Um, and in any case, the whole concept of truth as being a desirable thing in this society seems to have eroded from both the right and the left, and um...
- CWChris Williamson
How so?
- DMDouglas Murray
Well, uh, truth, for instance, used to be the basis for a university, uh, education and the basis of university inquiry, that you sought the truth wherever it led you. That was the point of academia, for instance. Uh, politics was different. Politics was always about having to find a way around truth and deal with it and address it where-
- CWChris Williamson
Pesky inconvenience.
- DMDouglas Murray
Yeah, address it where you could, but, you know, get around it if it was too awkward. But inquiry used to be about seeking truth, and we've been like that for a couple thousand years or more, since the Greeks certainly, and then it changed at some point relatively recently, and, um, truth is now not a desirable thing because truth hurts people, and, um, it can be mean.
- CWChris Williamson
So it's not only that people have different opinions on things.
- DMDouglas Murray
They don't agree that the thing we used to agree on is worth going for.
- CWChris Williamson
They have different facts as well.
- DMDouglas Murray
Well, they have different facts, but they don't agree that the... I mean, they don't agree that you should just follow truth wherever it takes you-
- CWChris Williamson
Hm.
- DMDouglas Murray
... um, because other things are prioritized over truth. I still prioritize truth over all things if I can, and try to, and, uh, I think that's the interesting thing about the world is finding out what in it is true and what is not. But other people don't seem to have that same, um, appetite anymore, and uh, would rather live in lies, which I think is very dangerous for an individual and very dangerous for society. Um, in fact, it's- it's- it's dangerous for an individual and lethal in a society, I'd say. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It's interesting to think about the motivations that people have for not believing something which is already on an unshaky foundation of we can't agree on the thing that we're not believing about.
- DMDouglas Murray
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And, uh, Gwenda, one of my friends, has this idea that, uh, if no amount of evidence would dissuade someone of what they believe, then they don't have a rational belief, they have a, uh, religious ideology.
- DMDouglas Murray
Yeah, yeah, that's... Jonathan Swift, uh, beautifully put it as you can't reason somebody out of a position they weren't reasoned into. Yeah, of course. I mean, you're dealing with dogma with many people today. It's just they don't know which faith they belong to, but it's dogma for sure. I just am not very interested in their views, uh, because I think they can't defend them, and if you can't defend your views, I'm not very interested in them 'cause I don't find them persuasive.
- 17:24 – 24:31
Did New Atheism Actually Work?
- CWChris Williamson
I asked Sam this about whether or not... Obviously, whatever, 10, 15 years ago, he was a big part of the new atheist movement-
- DMDouglas Murray
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... and I guess you were tangentially on it.
- DMDouglas Murray
Mm-hmm. I was a little bit of a whipper-snapper, in fact.
- CWChris Williamson
Ancillary...
- DMDouglas Murray
I was a whipper-snapper new atheist.
- CWChris Williamson
You were an orbiter. It's referred to-
- DMDouglas Murray
I was a sh- I was a short trousers-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DMDouglas Murray
... uh, new atheist.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. Um, but, you know, your book, uh, The Madness of Crowds, talks about the collapse of grand narratives.
- DMDouglas Murray
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And one of the biggest collapses of grand narratives was religion.
- DMDouglas Murray
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
So I asked Sam whether or not looking back, he believed that his deconstruction of religion was on balance a net good or a net-
- DMDouglas Murray
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, uh, net negative.
- DMDouglas Murray
What did he say?
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, he- he managed to evade being too committal either way, uh, I think, but what do you think? What's your opinion on that?
- DMDouglas Murray
Well, I think it's like a lot of things that you deconstruct.... um, you, you only know afterwards whether or not it's something you could have put back together. It's like children with bicycles. We're very fine at taking them apart, but very bad at putting them back together. I'm not comparing Sam to a child, but, I mean, I just- I think that is- it is something you notice only once you've taken it apart. Once you can't reconstruct it, you'd realize what it- what function it might have performed. Um, I said to Sam on stage a few years ago, uh, that I- I thought that it would all be fine if most atheists were as rational and level-headed as Sam, but it's not Sam Harris all the way down. It's like Sam Harris followed by total mentalist.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DMDouglas Murray
And, um, who just will not reason or rationalize anything and are just screaming harpies of insanity.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- DMDouglas Murray
So that's a shame. Um, but, yes, I mean, I think that that whole thing works for some people, but obviously doesn't work for others. I mean, religion is, uh, you know, Schopenhauer among others saw it, was, um, religion was philosophy for the masses. Um, absent religion completely, uh, there are several- lots of options of what will happen. One is that the- the- the- the general public lose the overarching framework of their lives and have nothing to replace it with, and another one is that they do replace it with other things, you know, which are new religions which crop up all the time. We have the- the religion of the body negativity movement, you know, we have the religion of, um, trans, we have the religion of gender, we have the religion of race and, you know, and all these things have just stepped into this void. And, uh, they're all dogmatic things with their founding texts. Um, they're- they've all got their own catechisms of a kind.
- CWChris Williamson
Priests.
- DMDouglas Murray
They have priests, they have, uh, excommunication rites, and I- my- my only observation really would be on that is that I preferred the old gods, you know. I preferred the old priesthood, funnily enough, uh, partly because we knew its flaws. And, um, the sweet point where you see the flaws of religious belief but can still live through it is, um, is one even I can- well, I can especially feel nostalgic for-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- DMDouglas Murray
... because I- I- I don't like the new priesthood. I- I find them, um, uh, as corrupt as any priesthood in history, uh, with the negative, uh, um, attribute that- that not everyone's woken up to them yet, you know. I mean, do we have- do we have in our culture an equivalent, for instance, of the meme of the pedophile priest? I don't think we do. I mean, for instance, I would love it if the- the sort of, uh, adults who push, you know, gender dysmorphia stuff on children were regarded as the equivalent of pedophile priests. I think that'd be fine. Uh, but it- but my point is it doesn't come with that yet. It's like the Catholic Church in Boston circa 1950. The priests are still fiddling with the kids but no one wants to talk about it, so...
- CWChris Williamson
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- DMDouglas Murray
Mm-hmm.
- 24:31 – 27:18
How Celebrities Use Causes to Look Good
- CWChris Williamson
- DMDouglas Murray
Like Lizzo.
- CWChris Williamson
Like Lizzo, indeed. Did you hea-
- DMDouglas Murray
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Did you see the stories that came out about Lizzo-
- DMDouglas Murray
Oh, it was wonderful.
- CWChris Williamson
... about her Amsterdam-
- DMDouglas Murray
Yeah, my, my favorite story of the year.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. W- what-
- DMDouglas Murray
No. Long way.
- CWChris Williamson
What, for the people that don't know-
- DMDouglas Murray
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... Lizzo was on tour, uh, in Amsterdam.
- DMDouglas Murray
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, took her backup dancers to the Red Light District-
- DMDouglas Murray
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... and made the backup dancers, some of the backup dancers eat bananas out of the vaginas of Amsterdamian strippers.
- DMDouglas Murray
Yes. M- my view is that what had happened here, was that Lizzo thought you could outsource the eating of your five fruit and veg a day. She (laughs) -
- CWChris Williamson
To the vagina?
- DMDouglas Murray
So sweet-
- CWChris Williamson
To the vagina of the stripper or to the mouth of the-
- DMDouglas Murray
She's so reluctant to eat healthfully, she even outsources the five fruit and veg a day. That was my view.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, (laughs) -
- DMDouglas Murray
Hm?
- CWChris Williamson
... it seems to me that-
- DMDouglas Murray
Wh- what?
- CWChris Williamson
... it's t- it's, it seems to me that both Lizzo, uh, Ellen DeGeneres, uh-
- DMDouglas Murray
Oh, yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... Jimmy Kimmel, all of these people who upfront-
- DMDouglas Murray
Oh, isn't it wonderful? It's so great. It's always the nicest-
- 27:18 – 30:13
Why Women Support Body Positivity
- CWChris Williamson
are very pro-body positivity movement.
- DMDouglas Murray
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
And I was w- listening to Bill Burr do a live show, and he said, uh, "Ladies, if you could only support the WNBA the way that you support a fat chick who is, uh, gaining weight and no longer a threat to you, that it would be doing more numbers than the NBA is." And I realized that-
- DMDouglas Murray
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... some, some nonzero number of women may, deep down in their darker moments, realize that they don't discourage some of their friends from, uh, gaining weight-
- DMDouglas Murray
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... because they can eat themselves out of their intrasexual competition for-
- DMDouglas Murray
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... potential partners.
- DMDouglas Murray
Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Oh, it's, oh, come on. Men are like that as well.
- CWChris Williamson
How do we play that game?
- DMDouglas Murray
Uh, f- I mean, this is gonna show a low side of my character. But you, you can't say always that you're sad if a... somebody you're not very close to, but you knew, knew, and you see them after some years and they look, and they're fat.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DMDouglas Murray
I mean, you can't say there isn't a slight sort of (laughs) , "You'll never guess who's become fat." There, there is different versions of that with, with men, I think. I th- and I, I think men can be complicit in that as well.
- CWChris Williamson
Hm.
- DMDouglas Murray
Yeah. You know, the thrill when a friend balds early, you know? And I think that's very common with men.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Thrill. That means, there'll be a German word for that.
- DMDouglas Murray
Of course.
- CWChris Williamson
Like schadenfreude-
- DMDouglas Murray
The, the, yeah-
- CWChris Williamson
... but specifically for the-
- DMDouglas Murray
Yeah. Yeah. For the, for the scalp.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- DMDouglas Murray
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, scalp-enfreude.
- DMDouglas Murray
Um, I think, I, yeah, I think lots of people do that. But it's, it's a pretty bad thing to encourage among people. Uh, but yeah, I, I think it is, it's part of the competition take- taking out of the competition, for sure.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. I was thinking as well about how, uh, material conditions, you were saying before, people's parents maybe had it better in some ways, but also would've had it way worse.
- DMDouglas Murray
Yeah, of course.
- CWChris Williamson
Material conditions often don't impact people's demeanors in the way that they might've predicted. Like rich people can be bitter idiots-
- DMDouglas Murray
Mm-hmm.
- 30:13 – 35:52
The Negative Impacts of Low Self-Esteem
- CWChris Williamson
of the time are what young people, but many people lay at the feet of their despondency or their nihilism-
- DMDouglas Murray
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... or their critical nature or whatever it might be.
- DMDouglas Murray
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And I've seen enough of my friends'...... vacillate through varying levels of, uh, affluence, or- or- or relationship, or singletoned-ness, or whatever. Uh, and one of the things... Which sometimes it impacts the way that they show up, but many times they are the common denominator between all of those situations-
- DMDouglas Murray
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... and the material conditions don't actually impact the way that they show up all that much.
- DMDouglas Murray
That's true. Well, there's a problem with analyzing this, which is that anyone who's successful inevitably looks at their own path to success as being, to some extent, preordained. I mean, almost so far. I mean if you- you just g- there are some people with wild luck. But most people, a- a lot of people let me say, who- who are successful, uh, look back and they think, "Well, I don't understand this person who hasn't made it to the same rung of the ladder as I have. Why didn't they work harder?" And so there's a sort of, um, a callousness actually that can cr- creep in there. Um, but equally, uh, people are, to a great extent, masters of their own fate. And it's- it's- it's a very hard one to analyze that, as I say, because the outriders skew the whole statistics. I mean, the- the outrider who does very well, not everyone can do what he or she has done, but he or she is likely to think they could have done.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, you retroactively... L- lots of people that achieve success look back at the route that was particularly designed by them, for them, to achieve the very specific type of success-
- DMDouglas Murray
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... that they managed to get, and then retrofit that as a universal law that anybody else could follow.
- DMDouglas Murray
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But one of the things I've realized is I've spent more time digging into personal growth and self-development and all of that stuff, so much of it is post hoc rationalization about one person's-
- DMDouglas Murray
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... ve- very idiosyncratic-
- DMDouglas Murray
Oh yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... solution for this thing. And they say, "These are the universal principles of-"
- DMDouglas Murray
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
"... X, Y, and Z." And you go, "No, they're not."
- DMDouglas Murray
No, they won't. No. They- it's- it's highly personal.
- CWChris Williamson
It's your personality just spun up and tuned up to 11.
- DMDouglas Murray
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, uh, most v- very successful people I've ever met have some story o- of their own growth, which is both inspiring and not replicable-
- CWChris Williamson
What's the-
- DMDouglas Murray
... 'cause they're unusual people.
- CWChris Williamson
But what's the alternative? As you said before, like, you- you have to lay the agency at your own feet. Because if you were to-
- DMDouglas Murray
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... perhaps admit the truth, which is, "I was in the right place at the right time," was it-
- DMDouglas Murray
Well, there's a... Yeah, that can be the case. Uh, not many people say that-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- DMDouglas Murray
... but yeah, some do. Yeah.
- 35:52 – 40:14
Who Actually Was George Orwell?
- CWChris Williamson
Orwell there.
- DMDouglas Murray
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
The Telegraph recently spoke about his bi- his wife's biography or autobiography.
- DMDouglas Murray
Oh, there's a new biography of Sonia Orwell, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"George Orwell was sadistic, misogynistic, homophobic, and sometimes violent. Biographer of the legendary writer's wife says darkness that runs through 1984 is a reflection of his soul."
- DMDouglas Murray
Huh.
- CWChris Williamson
Should we un-person George?
- DMDouglas Murray
Well, it would be the obvious end point to the-
- CWChris Williamson
Full circle. (laughs)
- DMDouglas Murray
Full circle. Um, yeah, I- I... This- this is just a way of the- for the author to get publicity is to- to repeat things everyone knew-I mean, George Orwell held the views of his time about gay men, for instance. We know he was a little bit homophobic, but it was the 1940s, you know. Um, Nancy Boys and so on, as he would have called them-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DMDouglas Murray
... were not-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DMDouglas Murray
... you know, people weren't into it.
- CWChris Williamson
That sounds like a, like a, a 1990s Taxi Driver's insult that they've thrown at them.
- DMDouglas Murray
No, it was a sort of word that Orwell and people of his generation would use, you know, fairies, that sort of thing. And he does in some of his letters and some of his articles. But I mean, so fucking what? I don't care. I mean, was he sadistic? Probably in some ways, sometimes. Was... Could he be cruel and nasty? Probably, being a human being. I just think that, that the absurdity of our age of judging people and passing... Well, you know, just, just wait till people do that to you.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- DMDouglas Murray
You know, wait- wait till somebody weighs up your own life in the balance and finds you wanting, you know. I mean, I think it's preposterous. Human beings are what we are. Being amazed at us in the past is always just an expression of our own vanity and thinking we've got past all that. It's like the way... If, if a friend of mine was saying to me the other day when I was at Oxford, if you want to get a grant to study these days, say, in English, and you were to choose Shakespeare as your subject of study, which is sort of unusual these days, uh, you would, um, you would, for instance, have to, uh, find Shakespeare guilty of, you know, racism, colonialist thinking, and so on. And it doesn't seem to strike these people that actually their job is not to judge Shakespeare. Shakespeare judges us, and he might find us wanting.
- CWChris Williamson
How so?
- DMDouglas Murray
Well, he gives us visions of the universe and our place in it, which it would do us well to listen to, um, and that might include exposing human follies, human weakness, human pride, human sin, human lust, uh, the tendency to do evil in the name of doing good, or think you're doing good and do great harm, so much more. All of this is in Shakespeare's work, in his characters, in the things he inv- he created in his mind and his work. I think that, that if you look at a panoply of a vision like that, you should think, "I wonder what he's telling us?" Rather than, "I wonder how I can judge him?" What's the point of the latter? It's so boring. Human being from the past in human being in the past. Shocker.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DMDouglas Murray
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Has it always been this way? Has it always been, uh, people of the present judging people of yesterday by the standards of today?
- DMDouglas Murray
Um, well, most people didn't have time in the past to engage in that. Um, too busy trying to put food on the table or surviving past the age of 25, you know. Um, uh, but w- what it is in our current society is there's a very strange, um, um, lack of respect for wisdom. Uh, Henry Kissinger said this in the early years of internet. He said, "I, uh... All the knowledge is there, but where's the wisdom?"
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DMDouglas Murray
Uh, and people might not like me quoting Doctor Kissinger in that regard, but again, he knows a lot more than most of his critics. Um, I do think that's a, that's a str- oddity of the age. I think the oddity, the vanity of trying to judge everyone from the past by our current standards is just absurd. You think you know more than Shakespeare? You think you know more than Orwell? Uh, these are minnows, uh, snapping at giants. I don't care for them. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
One, uh, potentially
- 40:14 – 46:38
How K-Pop Is Causing Female Mental Health Issues
- CWChris Williamson
unfortunate situation is that women's mental health is in part down to misogynistic songs. When BTS lead singer Jungkook changed t- to a more misogynistic music, a disturbing trend followed. A psychiatrist's point of view on BTS's Jungkook and the, the messages of pop music. Early in their teen career, BTS took a deliberate stance to refrain from objectifying or sexualizing women. Despite going against a music industry norm, they achieved huge success. Now, as part of his solo launch, different imagery has s- surfaced in Jungkook's songs. They include a woman telling her man that she will "be your fantasy" and "swallow your pride" to make him "never think about cheating." Lyrics that identify-
- DMDouglas Murray
Ow. So what's this? Why... You just said, "Swallow your pride," in a particularly suggestive way.
- CWChris Williamson
I did not at all.
- DMDouglas Murray
What's the... What's-
- CWChris Williamson
I've got worse.
- DMDouglas Murray
... the subtext of that?
- CWChris Williamson
I've got, I've got more to go here.
- DMDouglas Murray
Oh, okay. Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, lyrics that identify women as "those hoes over there" and a male rapper telling his female partner, "I wanked before you came so that I can fuck you longer." Of course, in reality, Jungkook's songs are par for the course, or even tame.
- DMDouglas Murray
Does that work, by the way, what you just described?
- CWChris Williamson
You've never im- increased your stamina-
- DMDouglas Murray
I just think it's... If-
- CWChris Williamson
... by t- uh, having a warm up?
- DMDouglas Murray
I would have thought the lyric more likely, "I did that before you came and now I'd just like to go to bed."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DMDouglas Murray
I'd kind of like a lie down.
- CWChris Williamson
"I did that before you came-"
- DMDouglas Murray
I might have an early night, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... "and that's why I texted saying I'm not so fussed about ..."
- DMDouglas Murray
That... Yeah, yeah, I don't mind. Let's have a quick dinner now I get to bed.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, one of my friends had a, uh, had a, a, a rubric for this that was "masturbate before you evaluate."
- DMDouglas Murray
Oh, well, that's true. Yeah, that's... That can be sensible advice.
- CWChris Williamson
"I'm not sure if I liked you or I was just horny."
- DMDouglas Murray
Horny, yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. But no, girls' mental health-
- DMDouglas Murray
Okay, sorry. You were reading out these charming lyrics. Is that it?
- CWChris Williamson
That's it. That's it. "Those hoes over there," "I wanked before you came so that I can fuck you longer."
- DMDouglas Murray
Hmm. Well, where to start?
- CWChris Williamson
Downstream from K-pop is a litany of female mental health problems. That's what I'm saying.
- DMDouglas Murray
There's a problem here, isn't there? Because on the one hand, popular culture does have a massive impact on the way we see the world. Uh, I was at a gym recently where I actually asked the gym staff to, to turn off the music because it was a load of rap, very unpleasant rap, with repeated use of the N-word in it.... obviously it was a black rapper, or so I was assuming.
- 46:38 – 55:01
How Successful Will Gays For Gaza Be?
- CWChris Williamson
on long-term?
- DMDouglas Murray
Well, it... The joke at the moment is that there aren't enough tall buildings in Gaza to throw Gays for Gaza off. But these, I mean, these people, uh, you know, I've said very often they're, they're part of the same phenomenon as turkeys for Christmas and chickens for KFC. I mean, I, I just, I'm fed up with these in- fringe idiot cases. I mean, they're so mentally defective, these people. Uh, and, and incredibly narcissistic. You know, "I can be queer and also celebrate Palestine." No, you fucking can't. Fuck off.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DMDouglas Murray
Just... You know, "I can both argue for two-state solution and also celebrate queerness, and also not let myself down." No, you can't. No, you can't. You can't do all those things. At some point, you gotta choose.
- CWChris Williamson
I've got a video to show you. Let me show you this video.
- NANarrator
Can someone please explain to me what this means? What does, "Reproductive justice means-"
- CWChris Williamson
Oh.
- NANarrator
"... free Palestine"? What does that even mean? Like, what does it mean? I'm pretty sure... I'm not pretty sure. Abortions are illegal in Palestine, unless it's like, you know, a super medical emergency and the mother will die. From what I understand, actually, a lot of Palestinians have to go to Israel to get the abortions they want. So what does this mean?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- NANarrator
What? It...
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- NANarrator
It's such a huge sign. There's five people holding this thing. It's massive.
- DMDouglas Murray
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
That's very good. That's Danny, the other half of Ryan who wasn't there the day that you, that you came. Um-
- DMDouglas Murray
Yeah, the boys' cost. Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Reproductive justice means free Palestine. What are you thinking? Can you-
- DMDouglas Murray
I mean, this is just, this is just, uh, incredibly ignorant young people in America who have been taught this weird-... version of the world where all oppressions interlink and interlock and you- uh, you're either the majority or minority for minority rights and issues, or for majority rights and issues. And all minority rights and issues intersect and overlap, so that if you're queer, somehow you- No, no, it's not even that. These ignoramuses who couldn't point to the River Jordan if you showed it to them on a map, um, walk along the streets of America s- sh- shouting, "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free." Because they think the Palestinians are the underdogs in this weird version where they've mapped American racial... Well, they've mapped a very specific version of American racial politics onto everything else in the world. It's the same thing who p- talk- p- people who talk about colonizers. I mean, there's this language of colonizers, apartheid, all this stuff, and they've just tried to map it everywhere. Well, I say everywhere, actually it's highly selectively, highly selectively. I mean, the people who are talking about Israelis being colonizers, um, when I saw that the other day on the streets of London, I thought, "Yes, if only there was a name for large numbers of people who came from outside to a country and, um, if only we could identify what they might be called in Britain. Oh, it would be immigrants, wouldn't it?" Do you want to call immigrants colonizers in Britain? Are you sure you want to follow this logical conclusion? The talk about indigenous peoples. Oh, okay, great. Any way you don't want to apply that? Might there be a country or continent, say, oh, Europe, where you don't want to start talking about the indigenous peoples? I notice that people don't. But if you do want to, welcome to hell. So no, all that is happening is a very selective mapping of a particular interpretation of the world that very dumb people in America have tried to f- put on certain selective other cases. And it doesn't work, it just doesn't work, but may they never find out how much it doesn't work. May they never find out. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
(coughs)
- DMDouglas Murray
I, I wish them bliss in their ignorance because if their ignorance ever gets popped, it will be as brutal a day as can be imagined.
- CWChris Williamson
I've been thinking for a good while about how hypocrisy is a purpose-built tool for the internet to use. It's th- it's like catnip for the internet. It's the thing, because the reason-
- DMDouglas Murray
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... it's so purpose-built, it's like a, one of those can you spot the difference competitions on a touchscreen iPad.
- DMDouglas Murray
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
This is what's on the left, this is what's on the right. And what you have is, here's something that someone once said or a position that they used to hold, and here is what they hold now, or here is what they do in their real life, or here is whatever.
- DMDouglas Murray
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And it's kind of what you're identifying here, that you have a worldview which is self-contradictory. You're just using different words for one thing that is almost exactly the same for another thing-
- DMDouglas Murray
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... and then complaining about this one saying, "Don't look o- d- don't look over here at this one."
- DMDouglas Murray
Don't look over here. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Uh.
- 55:01 – 1:03:10
Is Douglas a Conspiracy Theorist?
- DMDouglas Murray
think.
- CWChris Williamson
Michael Malice has a, a hierarchy of different, uh, I think it's like the hierarchy of grifters.
- DMDouglas Murray
I don't know why, but the moment you say Michael Malice, my m- m- face immediately sort of starts to smile.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, he's terrible. Uh, one of the, it's like, um, industry plant, paid opposition, controlled PSYOP.
- DMDouglas Murray
Oh, yes. Yes, yes, yes.
- CWChris Williamson
It goes all the way up, and he said-
- DMDouglas Murray
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that he descended recently. He's not quite at paid opposition, but I think he's industry plant now.
- DMDouglas Murray
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
I think Lex Fridman is paid opposition. Um, s- s-
- DMDouglas Murray
P- Paid is different from controlled opposition.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, maybe it's controlled opposition.
- DMDouglas Murray
Maybe it's the same.
- CWChris Williamson
I don't fucking know.
- DMDouglas Murray
Controlled opposition is... These are such weird terms that have cropped up in our era.
- CWChris Williamson
I love it.
- DMDouglas Murray
Again, I think they're sort of low resolution explanations, but they're really, really low resolution explanations for things. Whenever I hear somebody describe things as that, I always sort of know you're not dealing with somebody who actually understands the world.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you find... There's a, definitely a trend of, um, conspiratorial thinking, conspiracism.
- DMDouglas Murray
Yeah, of course.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, much stronger in our adopted homeland than it is in the UK, I think.
- DMDouglas Murray
Yes, that's true.
- CWChris Williamson
What do you think? Uh, uh, are you... How conspiracy pilled are you? Do you see...
- DMDouglas Murray
I- I mean, it's, it's... This is the moment when people say, "Aha, controlled opposition."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DMDouglas Murray
(laughs) I just wa-
- CWChris Williamson
You ascended.
- DMDouglas Murray
I-
- CWChris Williamson
This is me allowing you to graduate from-
- DMDouglas Murray
I think I talked about this on the Boys cast, that's right.
- CWChris Williamson
Did you?
- 1:03:10 – 1:12:40
The West’s Move Beyond Peak-Woke
- CWChris Williamson
about the extremist worldview beliefs, largely in the West, but I guess everywhere, and I was wondering whether we have finally moved beyond peak woke. And a study came up recently that was kind of interesting. Researchers from Change Research polled over a thousand registered US voters from 18 to 34. A majority of both women and men consider far rightism and far leftism to be red flags in a potential partner. 76% of women and 59% of men consider identifying as a MAGA Republican to be a large turnoff. 64% of men and 55% of women say they'd also swipe left on someone identifying as a communist. 55% of women's-
- DMDouglas Murray
What was the f- how was it with the - 64% of men, 55% of women swipe left on a, on a communist. That's a no. Uh, 55% of men said that listening to Joe Rogan was a red flag. Uh, f- (laughs) 41% of men said the same for a woman being into astrology. Oh, well that's no... I'm with that one.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, th-
- DMDouglas Murray
Because if somebody says, "What's your star sign?" Date over. Gone.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Well, there's a, a really famous meme where, uh, it's o- on iMessage and the text says, um, "Mum, uh, what time was I born at?"
- DMDouglas Murray
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
And the reply from mum says, "Uh, stay the fuck away from that girl." (laughs)
- DMDouglas Murray
(laughs) Yeah, it is, it is... The, the heart sinks when it comes up as a question. Oh, no. It's a shame. Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, 41... uh, 33% of men said for Black Lives Matter, it was a red flag if they say Black Lives Matter, 14% of women. Uh, 53% of women said it was a red flag if they recei- refused to see the Barbie movie, uh, 31% of men. 58% of women, red flag, if they say there are only two genders. 34% of men. Uh, 54% of women for... they identify as a conservative, uh, 33% of men for... they identify as a liberal. Uh, so next time you're vibing with someone, maybe save the podcast recommendations and daily horoscopes for the second date.
- DMDouglas Murray
Wow. And, and ma-
- CWChris Williamson
55% of women say that listening to Joe Rogan was a red flag.
- DMDouglas Murray
I wonder if the species has any future. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Because they can't listen to Joe Rogan. (laughs)
- DMDouglas Murray
Well, no, I mean, just like-
- CWChris Williamson
Or anything else.
- DMDouglas Murray
... uh, all these people w- are wiping out, like-
- CWChris Williamson
No, no, no, no.
- DMDouglas Murray
... very significant numbers of potential future partners.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DMDouglas Murray
Um, how weird. And Joe turning up in there.
- CWChris Williamson
55%.
- DMDouglas Murray
So w- now that's amazing. I don't... wha- what happened to all the good old people who used to say, "I don't really have an opinion on that"?
- CWChris Williamson
Well, I got-
- DMDouglas Murray
What happened to those guys?
- CWChris Williamson
I got pulled in a good bit recently on the internet for, uh, not commenting on the recent sociopolitical furor that's happening in the Middle East. And I quoted you pseudonymously, and said, uh, "I'm trying to make a habit of something which is very rare on the internet-
- DMDouglas Murray
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
... to not comment on something which I know-
- DMDouglas Murray
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... nothing about."
- DMDouglas Murray
It's a very good rule.
- 1:12:40 – 1:25:25
People Who Have the Same Opinions on Everything
- DMDouglas Murray
- CWChris Williamson
It's so interesting when you talk about, um, knowing one opinion that a person holds, and from that one opinion being able to accurately predict everything else that they believe.
- DMDouglas Murray
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That mono-thinking just proves that you're not a serious thinker.
- DMDouglas Murray
Well, I d- I mean, I just think it's- it's fairly obvious if, for instance, you say, "Here, what's the problem with the big bearded guy winning the wei- women's weightlifting?" I go, "Okay, I know all of your other opinions as well." And to be fair, that probably works the other way around as well, to a great extent.The interesting thing with most people is where they're, um, slightly out of sorts with their own political side, and so on.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, that's exactly the point, that you... If it's been a long time since you were surprised by the opinion of your favorite thinker or writer or commentator or whatever it is, that's probably a reliable signal that they're not really thinking for themselves.
- DMDouglas Murray
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
If you're just permanently, "Oh, yeah, it's like an old leather pair of shoes. Here we go again. The, the COVID things happened and I can already predict such-and-such's opinion on it." You go, "Every single time? All of the time? Every single time?" You know the idiosyncrasies of this person's very, very particular worldview. Well, that's because it's not theirs.
- DMDouglas Murray
Yeah, of course, and, and-
- CWChris Williamson
It's everybody else's.
- DMDouglas Murray
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It's outsourced thinking.
- DMDouglas Murray
And that, what's really sad about that is that, uh, that means that you're not really living your life. I mean, you're living a pastiche of a prescribed set of opinions. That's so sad. I mean, it's so sad, the wasted energies and wasted lives of people who've just downloaded a set of opinions, and they're just, they're just running them. You go, "Well, that's not your life. It's just someone else's life, uh, that you're just replaying."
- CWChris Williamson
What was that quote you told me about, about being shunted to the side of the road of your own?
- DMDouglas Murray
It's a Philip Larkin quote, from a poem of his. Yeah, it's a description of a couple, and he says that something is pushing them to the side of their own lives. It's a beautiful line. Terrifying line, horrifying line. It should make everyone... (inhales deeply)
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- DMDouglas Murray
... judge themselves.
- CWChris Williamson
What's it mean to you?
- DMDouglas Murray
Oh, well, it means that there's a life that you hoped to live, your life you saw yourself living, and, and you, you got pushed to the side of it and ended up not living that life. I, I think a large number of people have that. Almost all unhappy people I've met have that feeling to some extent. And then you've got a choice of poisons, one of which is to choose the poison of, um, other people held me back. Another is to face up to the fact that you are in some way a coward or a victim of circumstance or something else. But I think a lot... I mean, you know, as you know, one thing that young people, you know, can be encouraged to do is to set out the sort of life they would like to live, imagine the sort of life they would like to live, and then aim for it. And, um, working it out is sometimes difficult, sometimes not. But if you do have that image of your life as you think it should be lived, and you end up not living it, that, that is... Particularly if you can feel yourself slowly being pushed away from it, I think that's a terrible, terrible feeling.
- CWChris Williamson
It's like watching your own demise occur second by second.
- DMDouglas Murray
Yeah. Fortunately, I've never felt it, but I definitely fear it.
- CWChris Williamson
Where do you go to find, or to avoid cowardice or to find resilience or, or bravery?
- DMDouglas Murray
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Because a lot of the time, the easier path is easier, and it's the one that's got the least resistance and so on.
- DMDouglas Murray
Surround yourself with courageous people. Surround yourself with, um, with brave people. And that can be bravery of all sorts of different kinds. And when I turned 40, I had a, a dinner, uh, which I think you weren't invited to, but it's only because you weren't in town, if I remember rightly. But, uh, I did get a lot of my favorite people in the room at least. And it was interesting, but, uh, a friend made a speech in which he said, it's striking, I won't say the names of the people around the table, but some of whom will be familiar to listeners. But a, a friend of mine gave a rather very touching speech I was very moved by, in which he said th- y- how noticeable it was that Douglas had surrounded himself with courageous people. And it was from a very wide arrain- array of bits of the world and different disciplines and so on. And I was really touched by that because I hadn't particularly noticed that I'd done it. Um, but then I realized I sort of had, that actually, yes, I had, must have subconsciously, but maybe now consciously, wanted to be around courageous people, 'cause I think that courage is something that rubs off on other people. I think it's enormously to be desired to, to be around courageous people. And that might be different types of courage, some of it physical, some of it mental. Um, so, that, that's one thing. Yeah, surround yourself with courageous people, or at least not, uh, cowards, not cretins, not the sort of people who just say the same things that everyone's meant to say and so on. There's, there's many ways people can get out of this non-life that they are being shunted into.
Episode duration: 2:00:22
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