Why Do The Left Not Care About Men’s Problems? - George TheTinMen

1. 0:00 – 3:00

   Why George Started TheTinMen

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      You have one of the most interesting Instagram accounts-

   2. GTGeorge TheTinMen0:03

      (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson0:03

      ... that I've followed probably in the last year, and everybody needs to go and follow @TheTinMen on Instagram. I absolutely love it. These infographic carousel slides that you've been doing, I think, are, they're phenomenal, they're very well researched. I think you're an incredibly balanced voi- uh, voice in this space. So what's the reason that you personally decided to get interested in the topic of talking about men and men's issues?

   4. GTGeorge TheTinMen0:26

      (exhales) Um, well, I, I work in the creative industry. I create content for a living. I've been doing it, specifically in film for about 13 years now. Um, I've always found it very interesting to c- sort of communicate data to audiences. Um, I also engage heavily in sort of progressive left-leaning sort of pol- political spaces. And as those two parts of my life were developing, I sort of noticed an unwillingness from progressive left spaces to engage in good faith with an area which I was always passionate about, which is men and boys advocacy. And to be honest, like, I was quite naive when I started the journey. I didn't know a huge amount about anything I spoke about, so it was a lot of reading. And I remember just being absolutely shocked at the data. Like, some of the information I was reading, I just could not believe it, and I, I was, I felt like, as a creative with a lot of experience, I was like, "I've been dealt a winning hand here." There was so much interesting information, so many undeniable facts about men and boys. I saw an area of advocacy, men and boys advocacy, men's right advocacy especially, is experiencing what I think is a massive brand identity crisis. It's, like, very loud, very aggressive. It's very sort of in your face. And I thought, "If I can just change the way we present this information," which is compelling, and I'm sure we'll get into, "if I can just change the way we present it through my own experience, I think I can change some minds." And some (laughs) , some minds have been changed, some minds have been entrenched.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:51

      (laughs)

   6. GTGeorge TheTinMen1:53

      But I just had to do it. I just thought I had to do it. I, I just didn't see, in my reality, what I was being told about what it is to be a man, and the facts didn't seem to add up, and I was like, "I just need to try and present these things." To be honest, it wasn't even really supposed to be a public channel. Like, I was engaging so much in these discussions, um, with a lot of feminists, and I just wanted a, a space on my phone, quite literally, to be able to reference information about, like, suicide, domestic violence, uh, violent crime, homelessness, drug addiction. And I just wanted something to be under the table, and I mean that quite literally under the table, so I could sw- like swipe through, and, and following my own beliefs, like engage in this discussion, um, with, like, due diligence. And then people just started to follow, and then some of the wrong people started to follow and gave me some, some shit, which is fine. And then it grew, and it grew, and it grew, and then I spent a bit more time pers- like personalizing the content to make it a little bit more entertaining, a bit more attractive in the way that you've described so kindly, and then I'm here. Now I'm here.

   7. CWChris Williamson2:55

      So you are somebody that is from the left, very much so. I've seen

2. 3:00 – 14:46

   Can You Be Left-Wing & Pro-Men?

   1. CWChris Williamson3:00

      your political compass test.

   2. GTGeorge TheTinMen3:01

      Yeah (laughs) . Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson3:01

      And yet, you're pro-men.

   4. GTGeorge TheTinMen3:04

      Oh.

   5. CWChris Williamson3:04

      What, what is... First off, why is it such a rare position, and secondly, what's unique about what you've learned being in those spaces, holding those beliefs, and yet talking about the issues of boys and men?

   6. GTGeorge TheTinMen3:19

      I mean, even saying pro-men is sort of, it makes you wince, doesn't it? It's like, "Oh my God, that's unpopular." I mean, obviously I'm pro-all human beings, uh, including women, of course. I speak, I do speak actively about women-

   7. CWChris Williamson3:29

      You're human as well, yeah.

   8. GTGeorge TheTinMen3:29

      This is like, this is something I've always found frustrating, is that whenever we have these discussions, it always starts with some sort of, like, prospective apology where we sort of get down on our knees and we plead and we have to, like... Someone I just talked to the other day said, "You have to kiss the ring." And you always have to kiss the ring. You always have to acknowledge women and girls. You can't just talk about men and boys. I know, I know you've spoken to Richard Reeves. He does this quite often. He starts everything by saying, "Now, I'm gonna speak about boys and men. That doesn't mean I don't care about women and girls." Uh, and if anything, talking about men and boys is a benefit to women and girls." And I find by doing that you, you sort of undermine your own point before you've even begun. And I, I genuinely believe men and boys deserve a conversation in their own right, not for the benefit of women and girls, although that is a benefit, an indirect benefit, but primarily this is about men and boys. That doesn't (laughs) ta- me have to do it now, that doesn't mean I don't care about women and girls. And I'm not gonna say that again for the rest of the podcast, 'cause I don't think I need to continually have to prove myself. But, um, as for your question, (exhales) I just think... I do think the right has done a better job of talking about men and boys. Certainly not perfect, but the progressive left spaces just seem very intent on blaming men and boys for their own problems. So, uh, if men have poor health outcomes, it's 'cause men aren't going to h- uh, the doctors enough. If men have mental health problems, it's not speaking enough. If a man gets assaulted on the street, we ask who did it, and like we don't actually engage with these discussions in, like, good faith. There's always an accusatory finger. And then we, obviously we get to the concepts of toxic masculinity and patriarchy, which in my opinion, again, speaking as someone who works as a, for a living writing copy, I feel like those words, um, they just place the blame back on men's shoulders and they divide people. And I was just like, "I think I could do a better job. I think I can do a better job." I think I can bring the progressive topics into my account 'cause I, uh, the, uh, the frustrating thing is so many of the issues I talk about are, are, I would say, left-wing issues. If you, if we're gonna classify left wing as social equality, if you're talking about homelessness, everyone wants to end homelessness, which is great, but 80% of homeless people are, are men. 90% of homeless deaths are men. So really, if you stand for homelessness, you sort of indirectly stand for men too, right? We, a lot of people, like, hate war. Like, I want war ended, but then 99% of war deaths are men. Um, and there's so many issues that men, that people care about, including, like, BLM, for example, that are, that are men's issues, men and boys' issues, but are sort of recategorized as something else. So, like, BLM, for example, is certainly a racial issue, but I never really saw it mentioned at all that, like, 95, 96%...... of Americans killed by police are men. And if, if you were to line up like, um, all of the Black Americans killed in 2020, uh, the year George Floyd, 99% of it is Black Americans or Black men. More, more, in fact. Uh, and there's a great database, I think it's the Washington Post, uh, Fatal Force, where they basically have every single American killed by police and you can search by race. And it's like literally 244 Black men killed in 2020, two women. And I, I v- I never saw it brought up personally. That's something I've disagreed with a lot of people in, in my community, but I never saw it mentioned as a, a racial and a gender issue. And really, if, if you deny (sighs) police fatality as a, um, uh, a men, men's issue, I feel like that's, that's even worse than denying it as a, a Black issue, like because it is both. But you can't-

   9. CWChris Williamson6:54

      It's way more men proportionally-

   10. GTGeorge TheTinMen6:56

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson6:56

       ... than it is Black, so when we're talking about-

   12. GTGeorge TheTinMen6:59

       Yeah. Right.

   13. CWChris Williamson6:59

       ... what is ... That's such a good point, dude.

   14. GTGeorge TheTinMen7:01

       Right? So, well, (laughs) it gets worse, yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson7:03

       So, like, the, the, the, the conversation around, um, look at the proportion, how many White people were killed by police versus how many Black people were killed by police, and there may be an imbalance and there may be a, a required redress-

   16. GTGeorge TheTinMen7:14

       Hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson7:14

       ... beyond-

   18. GTGeorge TheTinMen7:14

       Hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson7:14

       ... simply the, the sort of situational, um-

   20. GTGeorge TheTinMen7:17

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson7:17

       ... e- environments that different groups inhabit. But the real thing would be, look at the 99.45% of-

   22. GTGeorge TheTinMen7:24

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CWChris Williamson7:24

       ... people who were male that were killed by police-

   24. GTGeorge TheTinMen7:27

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson7:27

       ... compared with the ones that were female.

   26. GTGeorge TheTinMen7:29

       Yeah, so like, I think a, a number's something like Black Americans, when you normalize to a population, are about 3.5 times more likely to be killed by police than White Americans, which is a disparity that's worth discussing, but men, men are 20 times more likely to be killed by a woman. And then when you tell people that, you put them in a very difficult place of cognitive dissonance, because they start reaching for, "Well, men are more violent, which is why they're killed by police," and that certainly would explain some of the disparity. But then are you going to apply that to the racial disparity as well?

   27. CWChris Williamson7:58

       (laughs)

   28. GTGeorge TheTinMen7:58

       And I was like, "Good luck with that one. Good luck with that one." And it, to be honest, it gets even worse, because I feel like not only do the left neglect that part of the problem, but I would say the left actively encourage, encourage it. I would say the left create the very problem they're trying to solve in police fatality. Because a lot of, a lot of these left progressive spaces actively participate in that very dehumanizing fearmongering around men. Like, "Men are dangerous, like, cross the street, watch out, keep your distance." Like, "Men are, men are terrifying, men are d- men are violent." And I'm like, that is actually feeding into the, the, the divisive, um, fearmongering rhetoric. You're sort of creating a cultural fear around men. And I'm like, "Who is gonna pay the biggest price for that?" And the answer is Black men. Like, because when police starting fearing, um, Black men, that's when, uh, Black men get shot. And I'm like, "Are the left creating the very problem they claim to want to end by explicitly fearmongering around men?" And (laughs) like, I mean, that's, that's a controversial question to start off with, but a good one nonetheless, I think.

   29. CWChris Williamson9:00

       So what, what do you find when you bring these sorts of positions up with the left-leaning friends that you will have, what's the kind of ... 'Cause, uh, presumably your left-leaning credentials must get questioned at some point.

   30. GTGeorge TheTinMen9:15

       Yeah. (laughs)
3. 14:46 – 21:22

   The Bias Against Men in the Family Courts

   1. CWChris Williamson14:46

      You mentioned before, and this is something I've seen pop up on YouTube quite a lot about, uh, family court, uh, child custody, uh, separations and stuff like that. This is an area that I have done zero research into.

   2. GTGeorge TheTinMen14:59

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson14:59

      I know, I know absolutely nothing.

   4. GTGeorge TheTinMen15:00

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson15:00

      So given that you are coming at it from a evidence-based, research-backed lens, what, wh- what don't people know about how family court and, and divorces and separations-

   6. GTGeorge TheTinMen15:13

      Well-

   7. CWChris Williamson15:13

      ... and stuff works for men?

   8. GTGeorge TheTinMen15:15

      I would say the fact that you don't, you don't know, and I would say I don't know a huge amount about either, but the fact that we don't know is an interesting outcome in and of itself. Like we don't know because we're not allowed to know. Uh, family court's a secret, a secret family court. So you're not allowed press, you're not allowed public, there's very little oversight. Like parents go in with children, and then a father comes out on his own, heartbroken. We don't know what's going in, going on there. I mean, I would, I'd be very, uh, we looked and talked too much about it, but I know it's something I'm learning about and I, every time I speak to a dad who's fighting for his child, that is probably the most heartbreaking story I'll hear. Like I don't... When we talk about... I feel like when you talk about politics, so much of it's descended into things like women not having pockets or, uh, the sound of my Alexa being a woman's voice, and those are sort of issues that are important.

   9. CWChris Williamson16:04

      (laughs)

   10. GTGeorge TheTinMen16:04

       But you need to put those down on the ladder a little bit. When a man is losing his child, I would just ask any parent like, "What's the one thing you don't want to lose?" And I would say like nine times out of 10 they'll say, "My child." And when you consider how many men are losing their child in a system that is corrupt, I feel like that's a bigger issue than it we, than we pretend is. And, uh, not just family courts but men are discriminated against in many areas of criminal court. Like I know there's been some interesting research by, uh, Professor Sandra Starr and she found like women are twice as likely to avoid prison for the same crime, um, and if they are sentenced, men will get 63% longer sentence, that's in America, f- again, for the same crime, same criminal history. In, in the UK like the Ministry of Justice came out with a report and I think it said men are 88% more likely to be sentenced to prison under similar, similar criminal circumstances. And, um, very little was said and done. That's the Ministry of Justice's own report. And, uh, a similar, similar phenomenon as I said earlier where there is a sentencing bias against Black Americans, 10% is found. So if you're Black in America you'll get 10% longer. Men get 63% longer, and if you're a Black man it's 63 plus 10%, so you've got the compounding of the problem itself, uh, and you see that everywhere, same with obviously BLM we talked about. Men are an at-risk group, Black men are an even higher at-risk group. And, um, I just think that intersectional approach is a really interesting and valuable lens that we should be using, but-

   11. CWChris Williamson17:27

       Isn't that fascinating? So if you, if you-

   12. GTGeorge TheTinMen17:29

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson17:29

       ... bring the word up intersectionality, it triggers-

   14. GTGeorge TheTinMen17:32

       Oh.

   15. CWChris Williamson17:32

       It triggers the, the, the base of the-

   16. GTGeorge TheTinMen17:35

       The brain.

   17. CWChris Williamson17:35

       The amygdala goes, right?

   18. GTGeorge TheTinMen17:37

       Yeah. (laughs)

   19. CWChris Williamson17:37

       On a lot of people because what they've been taught about to do with intersectionality is that this is a justification for somebody who's got a gluten intolerance and l- is left-handed to be able to claim some sort of a victim card.

   20. GTGeorge TheTinMen17:51

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson17:51

       Whereas what you're saying here is that not using the lens of intersectionality-

   22. GTGeorge TheTinMen17:55

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CWChris Williamson17:56

       ... allows us to ignore the problems of boys and men-

   24. GTGeorge TheTinMen17:59

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson17:59

       ... and actually means that a more, uh, politically popular-

   26. GTGeorge TheTinMen18:04

       Mm-hmm.

   27. CWChris Williamson18:05

       ... uh, way of segmenting out different cohorts that are having problems-

   28. GTGeorge TheTinMen18:08

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CWChris Williamson18:08

       ... is much easier to do-

   30. GTGeorge TheTinMen18:09

       Mm-hmm.
4. 21:22 – 32:18

   The Problem with Telling Men to 'Just Do Better'

   1. GTGeorge TheTinMen21:22

   2. CWChris Williamson21:22

      I had a conversation that I was doing in- in, uh, Qatar probably about two or three months ago now.

   3. GTGeorge TheTinMen21:27

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson21:28

      Me- me and you were chatting beforehand-

   5. GTGeorge TheTinMen21:29

      Yeah. (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson21:29

      ... 'cause I wanted to make sure that I was absolutely on the nose-

   7. GTGeorge TheTinMen21:31

      (laughs)

   8. CWChris Williamson21:31

      ... of this conversation I was having. And you sent me something, uh, and I've built this out, um, for a project that I'm working on at the moment. I actually would like to read to you a bastardized version of what you sent me a few months ago.

   9. GTGeorge TheTinMen21:41

      Oh God. Okay.

   10. NANarrator21:42

       What do I like?

   11. CWChris Williamson21:42

       "A common question is, why don't men just do better? Surely they can try harder in school, employment and health. Well, no other group is told when they suffer with reduced performance or accolades in the real world, that they should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps. We don't tell any other group to talk about their problems."

   12. GTGeorge TheTinMen22:00

       (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson22:00

       "Instead, we spend billions in taxpayer money and private charity to set up committees, departments, campaigns and funds to solve the problem. In simple terms, if a woman has a problem, we ask, what can we do to fix society? If a man has a problem, we ask, what can men do to fix themselves? It's a blatant double standard. And people who are unwilling to admit any structural disadvantages faced by men-"

   14. GTGeorge TheTinMen22:22

       (laughs)

   15. CWChris Williamson22:22

       "... are standing in the way of us solving the problems that are hurting men and also the potential partners who they may no longer be viable for. What's the point in asking men to talk if we are unwilling to listen or even acknowledge the societal issues that they're talking about? The problems are not in men's heads, but out there in society, and we should not gaslight men into thinking they can solve these problems by just trying harder or being less toxically masculine. If the patriarchy is so powerful, why aren't men flourishing more?"

   16. GTGeorge TheTinMen22:51

       Oh, why? Yeah, well, I mean that's a excellent rewording of what I- I said. I'm happy to take credit for it, and I hope it went down well. (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson22:58

       Hey, there it is.

   18. GTGeorge TheTinMen22:59

       Um, I- I mean, can I respond with a quote of my own?

   19. CWChris Williamson23:02

       Absolutely.

   20. GTGeorge TheTinMen23:03

       Like, going back to suicide is a really interesting vessel to talk about this. This is... So APPG, Boys and Men is a new organization that's launched in the UK. It's All Party Parliamentary Group. So it's different members of different political parties coming together to discuss an issue. There's one on everything, now there's one on boys and men. They did an absolutely amazing report on male suicide, and this is what they found. Uh, sort of what I said earlier. Um, the APPG heard that the focus has been on viewing suicide primarily as a mental health problem, when in reality, it is largely the outcome of a range of external issues or personal stresses that take many men down the path to suicide. Suicide is a symptom or outcome of a buildup of stresses. Suicide is a choice made by men when these stresses reach a critical level and the stress bucket overflows. It is not the result of either a single cause or men not talking. These stresses range from a combination and culmination of issues such as relationship breakdown, work culture, employment, financial worries, and a wide- and are more widely impacted by social isolation, loss of belonging, the lack of male friendly services and the lack of empathy towards men. We heard evidence that many men view suicide as a rational decision and a solution based outcome based on their failure to fix these stresses. They often do not conceptualize their problems as being mental health problems. So I mean, I- I'll read those issues again and you tell me, Kris, which of these could be solved through tears. Relationship breakdown, work culture, employment, financial worries, like-... being in debt isn't solved by crying. I mean, I'm sure-

   21. CWChris Williamson24:29

       Just talk about it, just talk about it.

   22. GTGeorge TheTinMen24:30

       Yeah. (laughs) Yeah, it's like-

   23. CWChris Williamson24:31

       The bank will accept that and you'll be out of your own crap.

   24. GTGeorge TheTinMen24:34

       If you go huh, yeah, yeah. Can you talk about this for a moment? And don't get me wrong. Like, talking is a way of dealing with the problem. But I don't know how much it solves the problem. It certainly doesn't solve it in its, um, complexity. Uh, I, I, I work a lot of, uh, a male suicide research called Suzy, and together we've done some very large studies. Together we did one of the biggest studies into male suicide ever. And she has more experience talking with suicidal men than I think anyone you could ever meet. And what she told to me on my podcast was that she was like, "The more I talk to these men and listen to the life they're living, the more I'm like, 'Fuck, I'm not surprised you want to kill yourself.'" Like, it sounds awful. Like, you don't have a mental health problem. We need to stop pathologizing male suicide and masculinity, and actually listen to what these men are saying. Like, it's, um, no point in them talking if we're not willing to listen. And the three words I, I try to bring in are, um, listen, ask, and act. Like, what's the point in talking? So you gotta listen, you gotta act, and you got to ask. And there's no point, there really is a limited utility to men talking if society is not willing to listen or if we're willing to re-tell people what they can and can't talk about. I get told what I can and can't talk about on my own page. People come into my page and they're like, "You can't say that. You can't say that. Don't say it this way." And I'm like, "I'll say what I want." But-

   25. CWChris Williamson25:55

       Oh, yeah.

   26. GTGeorge TheTinMen25:55

       ... it's strange (laughs) it's strange how you say men can talk, but not about these things. And it's like, well, it's not really talking if you can't talk about the things I want to talk about.

   27. CWChris Williamson26:03

       Dude, I love that. I love that insight. You're not saying the right things.

   28. GTGeorge TheTinMen26:06

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It, it-

   29. CWChris Williamson26:07

       You can't talk about this stuff. We want you to open up, but we don't want you to open up in that way.

   30. GTGeorge TheTinMen26:10

       Yeah.
5. 32:18 – 42:21

   Why the Right Wing Has Stood Up for Men

   1. GTGeorge TheTinMen32:18

      for that."

   2. CWChris Williamson32:18

      Do you think-

   3. GTGeorge TheTinMen32:19

      Hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson32:19

      ... that most people who do hold those beliefs have had firsthand personal experience of being mistreated by men, or do you think that they see a culture online that praises and raises up people who push back against men? 'Cause as far as I can see, it's way more that memetic, I am holding a belief that is currently politically popular to hold-

   5. GTGeorge TheTinMen32:44

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson32:44

      ... which is to, I'm gonna stand up for the, for the dispossessed groups, and I will ignore information that suggests that a group which isn't commonly seen as being dispossessed actually might be. Therefore, men bad, women good, White good, Black good, immigrant, like good-

   7. GTGeorge TheTinMen33:03

      (laughs) I just, I just think it's not easy. Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson33:05

      ... you know, things like that.

   9. GTGeorge TheTinMen33:05

      We just, if I, if I had a catchphrase, it would be, "Treat the issue, not the gender." Like, just look at the issue. And if that issue in- impacts 80% of women, then 80% of the benefits will go to women. But we need to look at the issue, and like not see just genders. Like if you look at domestic violence, like even in the most conservative estimates, one in three victims is a man. And yet there is n- there is virtually nowhere for, um, men to go. So one in three victims, about 1% of refuges for men. And like, that is not acceptable. If I were to say there was a group of survivors who make up one in three victims, and they are sys- systematically shut out of refuges, people would lose their mind. I try that all the time. I'm like, um, "If you look at homeless people, 90% of deaths are of one type of group." And people get outraged, upset. And then you reveal it's men, and then, (laughs) again, they're, they're confronted with the same sense of dissonance. But, um, (sighs) I don't know. It just, it's just a lot, it's just a lot to overcome for some people. And, uh, I just don't think people are willing to put in the effort. Like, um, it's too much part of their life. And, uh, it's a shame.

   10. CWChris Williamson34:14

       It s- it seems to me, uh, I, I learned this originally from Destiny, but I know that you kind of hold a, uh, a similar belief here, which is that one of the reasons that the right has dominated the conversation with men so much-

   11. GTGeorge TheTinMen34:25

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CWChris Williamson34:25

       ... is because it's largely been evacuated by the left.

   13. GTGeorge TheTinMen34:29

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson34:29

       That you don't get to tell men that they are a problem or have a problem or need to do better and not hold up any potential role models for them to step into.

   15. GTGeorge TheTinMen34:42

       Yeah. (laughs) Exactly.

   16. CWChris Williamson34:42

       You have to provide a positive, inspirational, aspirational view for what men could become, and that has almost exclusively been dominated by the right. And, you know, for every single person-

   17. GTGeorge TheTinMen34:57

       Mm-hmm.

   18. CWChris Williamson34:57

       ... every single person, I don't care who you are, that says, "I have a problem with Andrew Tate. I have a problem with Jordan Peterson."

   19. GTGeorge TheTinMen35:03

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   20. CWChris Williamson35:03

       Okay. Who do you suggest instead?

   21. GTGeorge TheTinMen35:06

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   22. CWChris Williamson35:06

       And I asked the guy who you, um, helped me prep for th- that debate that I did in Qatar.

   23. GTGeorge TheTinMen35:12

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson35:12

       He, uh, (laughs) I came out and they played this video that was like a bunch of individuals, famous individuals, that might be accused of being toxically masculine in one form or another. The first one was Milo Yiannopoulos.

   25. GTGeorge TheTinMen35:25

       Wow.

   26. CWChris Williamson35:25

       And I was like, "Look, if you've brought me here to defend fucking Milo Yiannopoulos, I'm on the wrong show."

   27. GTGeorge TheTinMen35:31

       Yeah. (laughs)

   28. CWChris Williamson35:31

       Uh, Jordan Peterson, Joe Rogan, uh, the usual, David Goggins, the usual crowd. And I was like, "Okay, um, I understand, my interlocutor." I was, "I understand that you have a problem with the people that have just been, uh, held up as-"

   29. GTGeorge TheTinMen35:44

       Mm-hmm.

   30. CWChris Williamson35:44

       "... potential role models for men. Please tell me who you would suggest instead."
6. 42:21 – 51:57

   How to Improve the Conversation Around Masculinity

   1. CWChris Williamson42:21

      I loved your breakdown when we were talking about that conception of left and right and, and, and how people see it. Uh, "One side is a mindless cacophony of anti-male bigotry, minimization, and erasure. The other, an equally antiquated and equally restrictive world view of alpha males and pickup artistry."

   2. GTGeorge TheTinMen42:38

      Fucking hell.

   3. CWChris Williamson42:39

      So good. So good.

   4. GTGeorge TheTinMen42:40

      Did I say that?

   5. CWChris Williamson42:40

      Oh, yeah. You did, mate. You wordsmith that very well.

   6. GTGeorge TheTinMen42:42

      Oh, yeah. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, well, I say a lot of stuff, don't I?

   7. CWChris Williamson42:45

      Fan of your own work.

   8. GTGeorge TheTinMen42:46

      Yeah. (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson42:47

      Um, but yeah, I, I think... So e- one of the things you-

   10. GTGeorge TheTinMen42:49

       No, you are. Cool.

   11. CWChris Williamson42:50

       One of the things that you're trying to do is, is improve this conversation and improve the way that it's communicated.

   12. GTGeorge TheTinMen42:55

       Mm.

   13. CWChris Williamson42:55

       Given the fact that you're trying to display these ideas, what have you learned about...... the way that it is effective and ineffective, what is missing from the, the communication side of the conversation when it comes to this topic.

   14. GTGeorge TheTinMen43:14

       Uh, I just think a really... People just want to live in denial a lot of the time. Like people don't, don't want to believe. It doesn't matter how much information you present to them or how compelling an argument you make. Like, uh, some of the studies I've presented in domestic violence especially, like we're talking about s- a meta-analysis of 200 surveys taken across 30 years, collected by probably the greatest expert ever on domestic violence, the man who inve- the man who founded the field of family violence research to the study. And he found that it's not a gender issue, men and women abuse each other at more or less equal rates. Professor Murray Straus, the late Murray Straus. He's like, I don't know if it is... He literally invented the instruments we now use to study domestic violence, and he's saying that. So, if I'm given that data and I still can't change someone's mind, I really (laughs) don't know what hope there is. But I have learned, I've learned... I mean, I, I still find the issues extremely interesting, but more and more, I'm finding it even more interesting how reluctant people are to listen to what I'm saying. Like, especially when it's so compelling. Not only not listen, but not even want to discuss. In any discussion of it makes you a misogynist or an incel or some sort of virgin, I don't quite know. Um, I've learned that... The way I described it was, um, minds aren't changed through like cells of a spreadsheet. It's changed with the cells of a human heart. Which by that, I mean that it doesn't matter how many pie charts I flick around or how many spreadsheets or diagrams, it's very dehumanizing way of talking about very important issues. Because one single story from like one single person is way more powerful than any pie chart. I, I o- I mean, I don't want into the habit of quoting Stalin, but he said, "One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic." And I've really learned the power of personal anecdotes. And that's something we can all learn from feminism, where they're saying, "The personal is political," and they are framing these important political issues as personal problems. So I try... Creatively, I try to combine different s- types of information, like I like to see some data, I like to see some personal quotes and stories, maybe some expert testimony. I try to mix them around in different ways and present them in, with different sort of perspectives and strategies. Sometimes I take the same issue, remix it with another. Honestly, overall, it's been very difficult. It's been kind of frustrating. But at the same time, it has an added benefit, because so many people are not willing to talk about these issues. It's excellent for me as a content creator because this means there's so many topics that I can talk about that no one else wants to talk about. It's like... I, I described it once as like, uh, eating from the garden of forbidden fruit, where no one wants to talk about these issues and I'm there gobbling it all up.

   15. CWChris Williamson45:56

       (laughs)

   16. GTGeorge TheTinMen45:57

       I'm like, "Yeah, this is great. No one's talking about this. No one's talking about that. This is a great perspective that no one..." And I had n- no doubt my chickens will come home to roost eventually.

   17. CWChris Williamson46:04

       Yeah.

   18. GTGeorge TheTinMen46:05

       But, um, I feel it's a combination of many different things. I do feel like there's a brand identity crisis within men and boys. But I also feel there is a, uh, reluctance to actually give a shit from people. Like, because people always talk about, "Why don't men talk? Why don't men cry?" And it's like, well, maybe because no one cares. Maybe that's why. Maybe we simply don't care. Uh, there is a d- there is a division of inner space about whether that's a biological thing or an environmental thing. Uh, normally, like most things, it's both. But I do feel like we seem to care more. An empathy gap is, or, um, male gender blindness, I think John Barry talks about in Gamma bias, yeah. (laughs) Gamma bias <|agent|><|en|>

   19. CWChris Williamson46:42

       Fuck yeah. John Barry, two for two today. I got you.

   20. GTGeorge TheTinMen46:45

       Sometimes you... Yeah, sometimes you read stuff and you're just like, "That is so true." Like we do, we do like erase male... So gamma bias is how we highlight and minimize gender, depending what we're talking about. So we highlight male privileges. In the area of privilege, we highlight the male sex. And in the area of victimization, we highlight the female sex. And by that, I mean, like if you look at newspapers, any, any of your visitors that want to go away and do some homework, look at how the news reports social issues. If it's like 100 people killed and two of them are women, it would be like, "98 passengers killed, two, including two women." And what we're doing is we're highlighting women when they're impacted and we're erasing men when they're, when they're, when they are impacted. Like another example I can give you is in London, where I currently live, uh, last year we had the worst year in history of knife crime in terms of the amount of teenagers killed. Um, I mentioned earlier how we talk about, um, gay people historically and we don't talk about gay men. Same for this. We, we use the word teenagers. Teen- another teenager stabs to death, 30 teenagers, 35 teenagers. And then I looked at the data, which no one's gonna do apart from some nerd like me, every single one was a boy. Not 90%, not 95%, every one, all of them, every single one was a boy or young man, mostly inner city Black boys. And we were reporting them in the newspapers as teenagers or children or like 15-year-old like... And I was just like, "You should be saying boys." If it was just women, if it was just women, that would be headline news. And what I know... Another more recent example was a, was a, another investigation that shocking results came out from a study into the Metropolitan Police. And it found that they were, they were strip searching children as young as eight. So if you... Again, Google it. Children as young as eight strip searched by police. That would be your headline you find again and again and again. And then here's me digging (laughs) into their data and I found that 95% of those children were boys, Bla- again, Black boys. And sometimes race is brought into the title. Sometimes it's like Black, Black children. But never 95% boys. And it's just like, we wouldn't put up with that if it was the other way around. If it was 95% girls, people would lose my mind, including, including, lose their mind, including myself. Like, we wouldn't put up with that. But when it happens to men and boys, we erase it. Another place we highlight, um, gender is in perpetration. So obviously you have like gunman and henchman and knifeman and conman (laughs) and it's like, again, man, man, man, man, man. And then like a... If we look at like 9/11, for example-... we very much highlight the fact that all of the terrorists were men, all of 'em. But no one highlights the fact that every single firefighter, and when I say every single one, I mean 100% of the firefighters killed running into those buildings, were men. I think it was like 340-something firefighters killed, and I'm like-

   21. CWChris Williamson49:28

       Firemen.

   22. GTGeorge TheTinMen49:28

       ... call them firemen. Like, I get it, I'm all for firefighters, but when it is all firemen, (laughs) please say firemen. Like, and that's, I feel like the f- when we erase men from those situations, the heroism of men, bravery and sacrifice of men, we, we also erase our ability to construct the very role models you talked about, 'cause we're not seeing, uh, 300 men sadly lose their lives s- dragging innocent Americans out of buildings. So that is, that is something that is tragic, and it makes me, it upsets me that maleness, masculinity is often defined by sacrificing the loss of life. But it is, that is something that we should all be proud of, and that's something that men can look to and be like, "Wow, those men gave their lives for others, and they're heroes f- from now until forever." And, like, I g- I guess that feeds into what you said about where are the male role models? And the answer is we've raised masculinity. We highlight the bad bit, we erase the good bit. And, uh, and I'll give you one final example is that the year after George, um, George Floyd was killed, uh, there was a, a really, really shocking murder of, uh, a young woman called Sarah Everard in London, uh, and it was awful, by Wayne Couzens, who is just human filth. And again, the headlines were the same, male violence, male violence, male violence, which is fine. We'll talk about male violence. But the following week, a young man dived into the Thames to save a woman he didn't even know, and he died. He lost his life saving a woman, and there were no headlines about male heroism, male sacrifice, male bravery. And we just start again, highlighting the bad, minimizing the good, creating a very warped, one-sided perspective of, of men and masculinity that really does hurt everyone, including boys, 'cause they're growing up in a society that doesn't show the good of men and only shows the bad. And that's what leads people back to Andrew Tate, who I don't appreciate, and I feel there's- I don't like him for my own personal reasons, 'cause I think he brings a very bad brand to the sort of area I talk about. And he's a poor role model, but he's a result of the left's failure, in my opinion. He's a reflection of our inability to talk about boys and men in good faith in a way that isn't toxic this or patriarchy that, and all this other nonsense. We're not giving boys the space to talk in good faith, or men, and they're going to other people. It makes sense. And if we don't fix it, it won't be Andrew Tate, it'll be someone else. It'll be someone worse, potentially. And, um, he is our failure, and our mess to clean up, and, um, I just wish more people would see that. (sighs)

   23. CWChris Williamson51:52

       Well, think about it this way, man. Being... Your political leaning

7. 51:57 – 57:50

   The Left’s Inability to Listen to Men

   1. CWChris Williamson51:57

      is very highly heritable, right? Whether you're from the left or from the right.

   2. GTGeorge TheTinMen52:01

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson52:01

      It is very, very highly influenced by your genetics.

   4. GTGeorge TheTinMen52:05

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson52:05

      Which means that there are going to continue to be people from the left, and there are going to continue to be people from the right, and some people can move between two, but there are a large cohort of people who were born to be on the left and-

   6. GTGeorge TheTinMen52:16

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson52:17

      ... born to be on the right.

   8. GTGeorge TheTinMen52:19

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson52:20

      Is there maybe a little bit of a gender skew one way or the other? There might be. There might be-

   10. GTGeorge TheTinMen52:24

       (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson52:24

       ... a few more, a- a- a small percent more women on the left, or maybe women on the right, I don't know. My point being both cohorts have massive, massive numbers, billions of men and women inside of-

   12. GTGeorge TheTinMen52:38

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson52:38

       ... both of them.

   14. GTGeorge TheTinMen52:39

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson52:39

       And if one side decides that they're going to abandon the conversation, they are ceding ground to a side that they don't agree with. And here's the other thing, people are more politically racist than they are racially racist. People, uh, f- parents of children, a huge proportion, nearly 50% of Democrats fear their child marrying a Republican.

   16. GTGeorge TheTinMen53:03

       (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson53:04

       They fear their child marrying a Republican.

   18. GTGeorge TheTinMen53:06

       I hate that. I hate that. Uh-

   19. CWChris Williamson53:08

       Right? And that's way more people than fear their child marrying a, a Chinese man-

   20. GTGeorge TheTinMen53:12

       Uh-huh.

   21. CWChris Williamson53:12

       ... or, or, or, uh, uh, marrying, like, a- an African lady or something.

   22. GTGeorge TheTinMen53:16

       (laughs)

   23. CWChris Williamson53:16

       Like, do you know what I mean? Like, way more.

   24. GTGeorge TheTinMen53:18

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson53:18

       There is much more bias against the other political party than there is against pretty much anything else.

   26. GTGeorge TheTinMen53:23

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   27. CWChris Williamson53:23

       So given, given the fact that we have this, if you are from the left, if you-

   28. GTGeorge TheTinMen53:30

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CWChris Williamson53:30

       ... refuse to have this conversation with boys and men-

   30. GTGeorge TheTinMen53:33

       Mm-hmm.
8. 57:50 – 1:07:59

   What People Misunderstand About the Gender Pay Gap

   1. GTGeorge TheTinMen57:50

   2. CWChris Williamson57:50

      What do people get wrong about the gender pay gap? I know this is something that you've looked at quite a lot.

   3. GTGeorge TheTinMen57:55

      Yeah (laughs) . Yeah, yeah. I mean, uh, there's, I mean, there's so much to say. I mean, I guess first of all, I'd say it's not a gap between men and women. It's a gap between mothers and fathers, and there's some really excellent... I mean, I love graphics. There's a really great graphic about different countries, and you see men and women's salaries going up like this together over time, and then women's comes down and men's carries on going. And it's like, well, what, what happened there? It was all going so well. It was all going so well, and then suddenly, boo, and it's like child, they had a child, and the women have taken time off work to have a child. They get longer paternity, maternity leave in the UK. And, um, if they do go back to work, they go back part-time, if at all. So, I'd say it's better seen as a child penalty paid by mothers, and the solution to that penalty is probably something to do with equal pay parental leave for fathers. So, if we can give fathers equal leave to mothers, uh, mothers will be able to return to work sooner and then return to their sort of, um, career journey and the pay gap will be closed through more parental leave for dads. And that's a really good example of like a, a approach I like to take where we look at men's and women's issues as symbiotically linked. The problem of one is the problem of another. And like any equation, you've got to look at both sides. So I'd say one side of the problem is the pay gap. The other side is, uh, parental leave for fathers. And you've got to solve them both. I mean, there's also a lot of evidence where men work longer hours, men travel further, men work w- more dangerous jobs and work in industries where, um, are just more higher paying. Which is true, but then I guess you've got to deal with the discussion of like, well, why are men choosing these jobs? Why are women not working in engineering? Why are women not working in STEM? And there's so much to say about that. But it really comes down to the, the individual differences of men and women in general. Like, do we have different interests? Do we have different behaviors? And if so, are they shaped by our biology? Are they shaped by our environment? Is it both? And I mean, it's both. It's surely both. So, I guess the answer to what you're saying is that men make different decisions, men behave differently, they go for different jobs, they don't take equal parental leave, they, um... They're just different people in general and a lot of that has an impact on salary. There's a really good, um... The biggest study ever on the pay gap, I think it was done by Harvard, and, um, they basically looked at Uber drivers in America. So the big reason it was the biggest 'cause they had so much data. Uber obviously has so much data, and men and women both drive Ubers in America. And they, they looked at th- the paying, and they were like, "Well, women are getting paid less at Uber." So how does that make sense? 'Cause it's obviously all automated. So they're like, what a great ex- great way of studying male or female behavior to, to work out what is in this gap, and there's three things in the gap. The first was men drove at different times of night. So men who do the graveyard shifts, the early mornings where you're getting paid more, they would want to do that. Women less so. The second was that men were l- more likely to stick with the platform for longer, so they had more experiences and they benefited from the experience. Makes sense of any job. And the third reason, which is 50% of the gap, was that men just drive faster.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:00:52

      (laughs)

   5. GTGeorge TheTinMen1:00:54

      Just drive a little faster guys, and you'll close that gap, 50% gone.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:00:57

      (laughs)

   7. GTGeorge TheTinMen1:00:59

      Yeah, I mean, I guess it's... I mean, yeah. That's Uber-

   8. CWChris Williamson1:01:02

      It is so funny.

   9. GTGeorge TheTinMen1:01:03

      So, that just shows it's not... it wasn't discrimination that was causing the pay gap in Uber. It was just different types of behavior-

   10. CWChris Williamson1:01:08

       Heavy right foot.

   11. GTGeorge TheTinMen1:01:09

       Different types of behavior. And I guess we can have a discussion of what shapes that behavior, but we need to start that conversation with it's not discrimination, at least in Uber, different types of behavior. And if you factor in, you know, w- men and women, same job, same experience, same level, same hours worked, the pay gap's like 99 cents to the dollar.And in fact, Asian men are paid even more than white men. And Asian women. And it's like, "Well-"

   12. CWChris Williamson1:01:30

       Asian privilege, baby.

   13. GTGeorge TheTinMen1:01:31

       Yeah. It is. Like, what does that mean? Come on, man. Yeah. (laughs)

   14. CWChris Williamson1:01:32

       That's what we're about, that Asian privilege. And do you know, I, I really, I, I loved learning about this, um, from some of your infographics. And what I love is the conception of the difference is between asking why are women paid less and when are women paid less.

   15. GTGeorge TheTinMen1:01:48

       Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson1:01:49

       That's the conception, right?

   17. GTGeorge TheTinMen1:01:50

       Yeah, yeah, exactly.

   18. CWChris Williamson1:01:50

       It's not about, it's not about a reason, it's about a time. And the time is motherhood.

   19. GTGeorge TheTinMen1:01:56

       Hm.

   20. CWChris Williamson1:01:56

       The time is becoming a mother. And here's the thing, man. You know, you, you've seen this in the Scandinavian countries. This was sort of Peterson's big break, whatever, five or six years ago, when he was talking about as you make countries more egalitarian, you see gender differences between the sexes increase, not shrink-

   21. GTGeorge TheTinMen1:02:10

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CWChris Williamson1:02:10

       ... because you open up the, uh, ability for your biological predisposition-

   23. GTGeorge TheTinMen1:02:15

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson1:02:15

       ... which isn't predetermined, but it is a predisposition, uh, for you to be able to go and do the things that you want to do.

   25. GTGeorge TheTinMen1:02:20

       Mm-hmm.

   26. CWChris Williamson1:02:21

       Now, the interesting thing is, I wonder if you were to say, um, a f- a, a mother and a father ha- how much is... Uh, leave in the UK is, like, nine months, usually, right, for a mum?

   27. GTGeorge TheTinMen1:02:32

       Oh, d- I mean, it's 12 months, but it's sort of split between government and the workplace for it.

   28. CWChris Williamson1:02:36

       Right, okay. So let's say that you-

   29. GTGeorge TheTinMen1:02:37

       Uh, yeah. Two weeks' tax.

   30. CWChris Williamson1:02:38

       Let's say, let's say that you inc- let's say you increased it, and let's say-
9. 1:07:59 – 1:10:45

   What Do Men Really Want From Women in their Lives?

   1. GTGeorge TheTinMen1:07:59

      tangent, uh ...

   2. CWChris Williamson1:08:00

      What, what have you learned, talking about, um, women and, and how they communicate and interact with men, what have you learned about what men want from the women that are in their lives, the kinds of conversations that they wish that they could have, or the things... I know you ask your audience a lot for feedback.

   3. GTGeorge TheTinMen1:08:20

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:08:21

      And, you know, you get these stories from men talking about what they wish that women would know about them, what they wish that women would understand. You know, what, what is it that you think men want women to know more about them, whether it be in terms of relationships, sexuality, mindset, mental health, career goals, lifestyle goals, any of that?

   5. GTGeorge TheTinMen1:08:45

      I've, I've, I've felt that for women to understand what the male experience is like, we need to go back to the lockdown of coronavirus. And I was in London at the time, and it was awful. But that feeling you get when you're walking around locked down, right in the midst of the coronavirus, was how I feel like it is to be a man. Where people are afraid of you, people avoid you, people cross the road. Like, you go to a supermarket and someone steps back. That feeling of unease and unfriendliness and fear. And I even like the fact that your emotions are masked. I feel like it's such an interesting reflection of the male experience, that feeling of unease and fear, and same... And it's just like, it's frustrating how the male and female experience exist on opposite ends of the spectrum, in a sense that men have so few things nice said about them. Like, the m- vast majority of normal men never receive a compliment, and go weeks, months, years without anything kind being said about them. But women have compliments shouted at them from car windows, like in the street, like t- like just catcalled. And it's like, ugh. Like, men walk through society just completely ignored a lot of the time, just ignored, doesn't matter, and there's benefits to that and disadvantages. But women have like a spotlight of society burning down on their shoulders at all times, especially if you're an attractive young woman. And I'm like, whatever the differences are is not for me to say, but surely the answer is just through talking about them. Not identifying men as toxic or violent or patriarchal, but actually just listening to what men are like. Like we talked about men, man boxes. We talked about how we're lifting men out of the boxes of like career, provider, uh, status, which I think are, are, are, can be harmful boxes to be in. We're taking those out, take men out of those boxes, but we're just putting them into another set of boxes, like male privilege, male violence, patriarchy, male virgi- these are just more boxes, and I just... (laughs) We don't wanna go in a box. We just wanna be given the chance to live our lives, and, um, any-

   6. CWChris Williamson1:10:40

      Talk to me about-

   7. GTGeorge TheTinMen1:10:40

      ... any answers, through listening, basically.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:10:43

      Yeah, talk to me about fragile masculinity.

10. 1:10:45 – 1:20:53

    The Truth About Fragile Masculinity

    1. CWChris Williamson1:10:45

       I've seen you bring this up-

    2. GTGeorge TheTinMen1:10:46

       (laughs) Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:10:47

       ... a couple of times. It's a really interesting conception-

    4. GTGeorge TheTinMen1:10:50

       Mm-hmm.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:10:50

       ... when you think about that. I remember that you, you, you used this example on one of your posts about, uh-

    6. GTGeorge TheTinMen1:10:55

       The razor.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:10:56

       Yep. Gi- g- girl products and, like, Ellen DeGeneres, f- like-

    8. GTGeorge TheTinMen1:11:01

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:11:01

       ... snide incarnate-

    10. GTGeorge TheTinMen1:11:03

        Yeah.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:11:03

        ... took the piss out of Bic making a For Her pen.

    12. GTGeorge TheTinMen1:11:06

        Yeah. (laughs)

    13. CWChris Williamson1:11:07

        Uh, so yeah, e- explain fragile masculinity and how that's interesting and through the lens of ruthless capitalism.

    14. GTGeorge TheTinMen1:11:13

        Well, I, well, I, (laughs) I, uh, I lifted that idea from an amazing blog I writ- I wrote, I read from a trans woman, and she was talking about... 'Cause obviously she's experienced both sides of the gender divide, and she was saying how it's amazing how when we see pink razors or Bic For Her being marketed at women, we laugh at Bic, we laugh at the razor company. We're like, "How stupid is that? Like, I can't believe you're trying to define women by being pink." And I, I laughed too. But when a, like a Nuts For Men comes out, that, or crisps for men, or chocolate bar, a Bic chocolate bar, we don't do the same. We, we blame men. We're like, "Oh, look at these fragile men wanting to buy their blue razor, or their blue... Ugh, oh, so fragile." And we're like, it's like a, a real like, um, difference in the way we approach the two things. We blame the products when it, they're gendered to women, but we blame the man when they're gendered to men. And, um, I guess that's fragile masculinity, and it's like, it's basically the same thing but it's treated in two different ways, and, uh, I hope people open their eyes a bit more to that. Yeah.

Episode duration: 1:33:41